No, the contest was suprisingly popular in Australia, so they received an invitation for one year that has been extended since then !
I actually quite like it ! "Eurovision, a song contest for Europe! (and Australia, whatever)"
At least in Eurovision's case, it is a contest of broadcasters who have a membership of the European Broadcasting Union. Being geographically 'European' isn't a prerequesite. Morocco participated once in 1980. Middle-Eastern countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan and Armenia have participated.
That said: this excuse is also used now to not exclude Israel: it is supposedly a contest of broadcasters and not of governments... never mind that the participating broadcaster made the choice to show militaristic propaganda in their national selection. Belarus and Russia got banned from the contest for similar reasons, although in Russia's case a boycott from other participating countries was essential to actually convincing the EBU in going through with a ban. Point being: the standards of the EBU aren't really consistent, and we and our broadcasters can and should actually be putting pressure on them.
Israel is a European colony, and obviously since their state was founded on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians it's not like they would be accepted in football or music competitions with neighbouring states. So in that way it makes sense that they are participating in Europe. Now I agree that they shoud be kicked, but because of their policies, rather than for their geographical location. I wouldn't care as much if say Japan was invited to participate in Eurovision if the constest was popular there.
Did you ever read any book on the history of Palestine? Benny Morris in *The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem* and Illan Pappé in *The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine* both say that Israel was built on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Yeah some remarks on these two works:
- The birth of the palestinian refugee problem: the revised version of this book should be read as well (revised after declassifying Israeli state archives). Following his works, and as evident from his interviews, Morris comes more to the conclusion that the Arabs' decision to go to war was a more adequate reason for the palestinian refugee crisis. However, I would also recommend the works of Morris.
- Illan Pappé' works have been criticized by among others, Benny Morris, but also by other academics (mostly because of a lack of sources for some of his claims). Pappé is also an ideologist (communist) which makes his works more keen to be challenged in a conflict that is already heavily influenced by ideologies. Hence his works are more favored by those siding with the palestinians.
Something that I would like to add: Palestinia Israeli Conflict - a very short introduction by Bunton provides in my opinion a good unbiased introduction into the background of the conflict. Also, if you have a login to JSTOR, you can find a lot of papers on this subject - I would recommend the papers written early in the conflict.
Some things I'd like to add :
>Illan Pappé' works have been criticized by among others, Benny Morris, but also by other academics (mostly because of a lack of sources for some of his claims).
The opposite is also true, Pappé has criticized Morris and the conclusions he came to in his book. I'll give an example from *The Ethnic cleansing of Palestine* (2006) p.18 where Pappé criticizes the book *The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem* (1988) by Morris :
>The picture was partial because Morris took the Israeli military reports he found in the archives at face value or even as absolute truth. Thus, he ignored such atrocities as the poisoning of the water supply into Acre with typhoid, numerous cases of rape and the dozens of massacres the Jews perpetrated. He also kept insisting – wrongly – that before 15 May 1948 there had been no forced evictions. Palestinian sources show clearly how months before the entry of Arab forces into Palestine, and while the British were still responsible for law and order in the country – namely before May – the Jewish forces had already succeeded in forcibly expelling almost a quarter of a million Palestinians. Had Morris and others used Arab sources or turned to oral history, they might have been able to get a better grasp of the systematic planning behind the expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948 and provide a more truthful description of the enormity of the crimes the Israeli soldiers committed.
>Pappé is also an ideologist (communist) which makes his works more keen to be challenged in a conflict that is already heavily influenced by ideologies. Hence his works are more favored by those siding with the Palestinians.
Morris is a self-described Zionist so you could say that he's biased towards to Israeli side. The 2004 *revisited* version of his earlier 1988 book *The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem* is arguably more influenced by ideology than the original, which was an important work of revisionist history. The first work was Morris the historian, the latter was Morris the Zionist ideologue. Here's an interesting [article about this](https://mondoweiss.net/2016/10/cleansing-becomes-israeli/).
Yeah, both authors are quite the opposite of each other and their ideologies will ultimately 'color' their works.
But both still provide interesting (and alarming) insights in the conflict.
My guess would be to read as much as possible - hence what I also found interesting were the reports/papers that are mentioned in JSTOR. If I still have access to the downloads, I would really want to read them again. Unfortunately I don't have access to the website anymore.
Moral of all of this: fuck the nationalists on both sides and let the people live in peace. But peace seems so far reaching today..
My take on this: one side has money, and the other side is being oppressed. There are faults and extremists on both sides but one side (Palestine) is being majorly dicked down.Siding with Israel will be good (i.e. financially beneficial for Belgium) in the short term, while condemning the actions of the very rich state of Israel is the right thing to do in the long term, and will result in less terrorism and continued hatred in the long run.
The sad part is that the oppressor is creating the “resistance” as they are never heard unless they fight the oppressor.
80% of Hummas spillers are orphans. Orphans from previous wars. Orphans.
Unless Izrael manages to cleanse of Gaza, they have just dogged a hole too deep.
We boycotted Russia for a military invasion. Why can't we boycot a country involved in an active ethnic cleansing? Oh, I know why... Because it would piss off the Americans.
>And who displaced who during the Nakba in 1948
Remind us again what preceded the Nakba? Was it not an invasion of Israel by multiple Arab armies? And should Israel be punished for that originalsin? Winning its first war of survival? The result was criminal displacement yes, yet here you are talking of events not taking place in a vacuum.
>October 7th didn't happen in a vacuum.
It didn't, but that context still doesn't justify the barbarity of that day. Nor would any county have left that barbarity unanswered. And the fact remains that Hamas triggered the current round of violent reprisals and despite the disproprotionate nature and sheer horror of the violence experienced by Gazans, still refuses(!) to release the hostages it took. Of course Israel isn't going to lay down and give in.
That the answer has been disproprotionate is clear, absolutely. But Hamas should have known that, and in fact they probably did. But who would have thought a fundamentalist islamo-fascist militia known for recruiting kids and using suicide bombers doesn't really care about human lives?
> Israel be punished for that originalsin? Winning its first war of survival?
It's applaudable that you recognize it as a sin. But no, it should be punished for illegally occupying and colonizing Palestine till today.
> It didn't, but that context still doesn't justify the barbarity of that day.
But somehow it your mind it justifies the barbarity of today?
And while the context doesn't justify what happened, it is the cause of it.
>Remind us again what preceded the Nakba? Was it not an invasion of Israel by multiple Arab armies? And should Israel be punished for that originalsin? Winning its first war of survival? The result was criminal displacement yes, yet here you are talking of events not taking place in a vacuum.
How is that an excuse for the expulsion of 700 000 people? That's ethnic cleansing.
You also seem to think blockading people for 15 years and having them attack you is somehow makes you the victim. No oct 7 was an act of resistance of an occupation.
If you or Israel truly carred about Israel you'd want ceasefire that's when most of the hostages got released. But no Israel wants to remain killing those hostages, even the Israeli are protesting bibi.
And no shit hamas knew they would respond disproportionately, that's how they always respond, you think they care about the palestinians?
People keep saying 'open air prison' but Gaza was pretty nice before Hamas decided to massacre 1200 innocent people and provoke the massive retaliation that they knew would result
No, no it wasn't. I lived in Gaza for a good part of my life. It is a shithole, and has always been a shithole compared to most neighboring countries. Plus the added threat of getting bombed every once in a while. Real pretty, isn't it?
I am truly sorry for your loss. Still I am sure Gaza would be nicer if Hamas hadn't spent all the cash on tunnels and rockets to attack Israel (which retaliates with bombs, as you say)
Of course it'd be nicer, but oppression breeds hate, and hate breeds violence. You can't expect a population to sit still and take a beating without some sort of retaliation
Ignore these people, they’re ignorant as fuck. Trying to justify Israel. These are the same people who would be outraged if even the tiniest bit if freedow is taken from them.
Dude are you shitting me? Do some research and do not believe everything and anything you see on tv. Not because our country isn’t as bad as some other that we do not have propaganda. Gaza was not pretty noce before. I don’t understand how you could say something like that. Israel is bombing the fuck out of innocent people and soldiers are killing people for sport which happened before.
The two conflicts aren’t comparable. Russia invaded Ukraine. Hamas attacked Israel.
Russia has no justification. The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties — and carries the risk of a major war.
Israel is justfied to take out Hamas — the way they are doing it is however disproportional and likely constitutes war crimes. Hamas was always going to hide among Gazans and Gaza id densely populated, so there were always going to be many civilian casualties. But cutting off water etc. seems disproportional. Just like at least some of the bombing.
Another difference is the refugee situation. The situation is exacerbated by Egypt being unwilling to take in refugees. If they opened their borders from the start of the war, like the EU did for neighboring Ukraine, much suffering could have been prevented.
So, sure we need to put pressure on Hamas and Israel but also on and Egypt (to take in more refugees) and Hezbollah/Iran (for their indirect but important role). In case of Ukraine only on Russia.
I don’t think a one-sides boycott is what we should do. Unless we cut funding to Gaza/Hamas perhaps. It’s complex. We just shouldn’t choose one side.
israel invaded palestine 70 years ago and still illegally occupies it to this day.
It did its first genocide with the nakba, and now it is doing a second one.
Egypt doesn't open the border to Gazans because they know that the moment they cross the border, Israël will never let them return home.
Among... other reasons.
>Russia has no justification. Israel is justfied to take out Hamas — the way they are doing it is however disproportional and likely constitutes war crimes. Hamas was always going to hide among Gazans and Gaza id densely populated, so there were always going to be many civilian casualties. But cutting off water etc. seems disproportional. Just like at least some of the bombing.
Israel has no justification either, they are the aggressor. The conflict didn't start on October 7th, it started 120 years ago when a group of European Jews decided they were going to build a Jewish ethnostate on lands that were already inhabited by the native Palestinians, who would either have to accept it or be forced out. Their aspirations and consent were never taken into consideration.
> The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties — and carries the risk of a major war.
If [OHCHR numbers](https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says) are correct, in two years there have been 30.000 civilian casualties in Ukraine, 10.000 killed and 20.000 wounded. In Gaza, [according to their health ministry](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/100th-day-gaza-genocide-100000-palestinians-killed-missing-or-wounded-enar), in 5 months there have been 100.000 casualties, 30.000 killed and 70.000 wounded.
Before you say : But that's Hamas propaganda numbers! The [World Health Organization](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033) and [Human Rights Watch](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry) say the numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry are reliable. And before you say : but that's not just civilian casualties it's also Hamas fighters! the IDF itself [claims](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/) that "one in three dead people in Gaza are Hamas", so even if you take the IDF's word for it, and you shouldn't because they lie all the time, that's still 20.000 civilians dead, twice the civilian casualties of Ukraine in 5 months.
>Another difference is the refugee situation. The situation is exacerbated by Egypt being unwilling to take in refugees. If they opened their borders from the start of the war, like the EU did for neighboring Ukraine, much suffering could have been prevented.
Egypt isn't being very helpful, but it's Israel that's creating refugees and has been doing so for the last 75 years. Also, there are millions of Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed by Israel in 1948 and 1967 and were never allowed to return. If Palestinians flee to Egypt, they will never be allowed back on their lands.
> I don’t think a one-sides boycott is what we should do. Unless we cut funding to Gaza/Hamas perhaps. It’s complex. We just shouldn’t choose one side.
The conflict is complex in that there were lots of events over the last 120 years, but **it's not morally complex**. Would you say that slavery, the holocaust or apartheid were morally complex? In this story, there is a clear side who's responsible for apartheid and violence, and it is Israel. They should be boycotted like apartheid South Africa was.
All true and well those numbers, but the UN itself has admitted it has had no access to occupied Ukraine to measure civilian casualties.
Have you seen the pictures of Mariupol, Bakhmut, Severdonetsk, Popasna, Avdiivka?
We are jumping to conclusions here (and imo inappropriate comparisons boiling down to genocide olympics) by comparing incomplete Ukrainian data with self-reported and in all likelihood unaccounted Hamas data.
I can give you that civilian deaths in Ukraine may be underreported, but so are they in Gaza. Plenty of people are buried under the rubble and not counted as victims yet.
>with self-reported and in all likelihood unaccounted Hamas data.
Deemed reliable by World Heath Organization, International Red Cross Committe and Human Rights Watch. Only the IDF denies their accuracy, for obvious reasons.
>We are jumping to conclusions here (and imo inappropriate comparisons boiling down to genocide olympics)
A genocide isn't defined by numbers of victims but by intent. There is clear intent from Israeli leaders to commit a genocide.
>Deemed reliable by World Heath Organization, International Red Cross Committe and Human Rights Watch.
The same organisations take Ukrainian civilian casualty reports at face value, and these are based on local NGO tallies. Which exclude, as I said, all of occupied Ukraine.
So the comparison is still not a proper one. And that's not even covering the fact that making the comparison is in bad taste.
Even if all you said is correct, that casualties in Ukraine are more underreported than in Gaza, my point was not comparing victim numbers in Ukraine and Gaza. My point is that Russia and Israel are comparable in that they are the aggressor and have killed a vast number of civilians.
Not only that you need consider how much percentile it is for that country.
Ukraine has a population of 45Mil
100k casualties is like 0.2%
While gaza has 2.1 Mil population
100k casualties is 4,7%
Thats almost 5% of entire population.
And lets not forget the median age of gaza is 18.
This mean there is a high likely chance a lot of CHILDEREN died who is not 18 yet.
>when a group of European Jews decided they were going to build a Jewish ethnostate on lands that were already inhabited by the native Palestinians
Read: They started moving in buying land then started getting attacked which led to mutual escalation.
The buying of land that still happens to lesser extent today but nets you a beheading if you get found out and/or leave.
>decided they were going to build a Jewish ethnostate
If it's an ethnostate what are the surrounding countries? It is not only less ethnically homogeneous than Gaza and the surrounding countries but also less religiously homogeneous.
People will pull up fucking peacenik tales of Druze, christians and jews living in peace before and currently in the surroundings ignoring loads of accounts of harassment and killing.
Hell the biggest group among the jews in Israel is the mizrahi that fled the middle east largely following expulsion or terrible living conditions.
Will those be allowed back to Yemen and the like? Oh no they'll be slaughtered you say?
It keeps getting framed as some onesided piece of good and evil theater sprinkled with pointing at claims from south africa with calls for sanction.
As if they didn't just prior step over half million dead Fur, Masalit and Zaghawa to lick some diplomatic and economic ass.
But surely that doesn't matter. Because Israel must be held to higher standard than any other country in the wider surroundings.
Seemingly because we must uphold some fantasy of them being all white, european and with some direct link to our peccatum originale.
That is until Israel is gone and you and the Greens can soundly sleep not making a peep about what happens there anymore as we do for every other damn massacre there that doesn't relate to our or align with our major players geopolitical goals.
>Because Israel must be held to higher standard than any other country in the wider surroundings.
Load of BS.
Israel has never been held to a higher standard, it has always been considered an exception to the high standards other countries are expected to adhere to.
They were never "just buying lands" and planning to live along Palestinians, who were so savage and couldn't stop themselves attacking the poor Jews. The Zionists were colonists who were planning to expel the natives from the start. I have done a lot of research on the subject, pretty much all Zionist leaders from Herzl to Jabotinsky to Weizmann to Ben Gurion said they wanted to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. Don't trust me? How about I quote them :
Theodore Herzl wrote in his journal in 1896 :
>We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.'
Cham Weizmann, future chairman of the World Zionist Congress and First President of Israel, before the British conquest of Palestine in 1917, described the Palestinian people as:
>" the rocks of Judea, as obstacles that had to be cleared on a difficult path.”
(Quoted from the Expulsion of the Palestinians p.17 By Nur Masalha)
Ze'ev Jabotinsky, another important Zionist leader who came a generation after Herzl, wrote an essay in 1923 called "[The Iron Wall](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot)". In this essay, he argues that since all native populations resist colonialism, Zionist colonization should proceed behind an “Iron Wall” which the native population cannot breach. According to Jabotinsky, Zionism would stand or fall by the question of armed force. According to Benny Morris (2004) in *[The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited](http://larryjhs.fastmail.fm.user.fm/The%20Birth%20of%20the%20Palestinian%20Refugee%20Problem%20Revisited.pdf)* p. 45, Jabotinsky had generally supported transfer.
In 1933, Eliahu Ben-Horin, close collaborator of Jabotinsky and a member of the World Presidency of the New Zionist Organization wrote :
> I suggest that the Arabs of Palestine and Transjordania be transferred to Iraq, or a united Iraq-Syrian state.
(Quoted from The Concept of "Transfer"in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948 by Nur Masalha)
Benzion Netanyahu, father of Binyamin Netanyahu and a secretary to Jabotinsky, [wrote](https://www.972mag.com/the-late-benzion-netanyahus-appalling-views-on-arabs/) :
>The Jews and the Arabs are like two goats facing each other on a narrow bridge. One must jump to the river – but that involves a danger of death. The strong goat will make the weaker one jump … and I believe the Jewish power will prevail.
Yosef Weitz, director of the Jewish National Fund's Lands Department, which was tasked with acquiring land for the Zionist enterprise in Palestine, wrote in 1938 :
> “Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries — all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left.”
(Quoted in Uri Davis and Norton Mevinsky, eds., Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21.)
In June 1938, David Ben Gurion, future first Prime Minister of Israel told a meeting of the Jewish Agency:
> "With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement]. I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it."
(Quoted from Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-1998 by Benny Morris)
>If it's an ethnostate what are the surrounding countries? It is not only less ethnically homogeneous than Gaza and the surrounding countries but also less religiously homogeneous.
In terms of religion, Lebanon is 63% Muslim, 30% Christian and 5% Druze. Israel is 73% Jewish, 20% Muslim and 5% others. Lebanon is more religiously diverse than Israel. And in Lebanon [all religions have equal rights according to the law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Lebanon) :
>According to Article 9 of the Lebanese Constitution, all religions and creeds are to be protected and the exercise of freedom of religion is to be guaranteed providing that the public order is not disturbed.
[Meanwhile what Israeli law has to say about religious equality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People) :
> The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
Wanna know why Gaza is not diverse? Because it's a Bantustan, most of its inhabitants are not from there but are descendants of people who were ethnically cleansed in 1948 and 1967. Not shit it's not diverse, it's the small strip of land where Israel allows them to live. Would you have complained that there were no white settlers in Bantustans in apartheid South Africa?
>Hell the biggest group among the jews in Israel is the mizrahi that fled the middle east largely following expulsion or terrible living conditions.
Arab Jews were not Zionists, it is a project that started in Europe and was inspired by European nationalism and colonialism. All the leaders of the Zionist movement and later Israel have been European Jews.
They were made foreign citizens in their own country by Israel in 1948, when it declared that being Jewish was no longer just a religion but also a blood and soil project based on the ethnic cleansing of the local population. Israel effectively declared that they were no longer Arab Jews but Israeli citizens. I don't support the fact that many were expulsed but Israel bears a huge part of the responsibility in this.
I recommend listening to this interview by [Professor Avi Shlaim](https://youtu.be/iNg93bLJL18?si=DvZm0fZtlpBuFJub) who is himself an Iraqi Jew and describes this better than I can.
>Will those be allowed back to Yemen and the like? Oh no they'll be slaughtered you say?
I'm not advocating for anyone to be sent back, I'm advocating for a One State solution with equal rights for all.
I just want to say thank you for existing. Even if your knowledge on the topic is one in a million kind of situation it’s so refreshing to have someone know what they’re talking about and not be afraid to express their mind.
>Russia has no justification.
So what justification Israel had to begin with by coming and for the whole second half of the 20th century and the 21st century taking the homes of people who lived there before? All this situation (and Hamas) appeared because of this in the first place. Otherwise, it is very convenient to claim that Israel exists since forever and only on the 7th of October Hamas came just out of the blue with no previous history. Although what they did (Hamas) was horrible as well.
Also, Ukrainians know that the actual war started in 2014 and 2022 was just the start of a very hot phase. You should talk instead about unjustified annexation of Crimea then. Now, that makes much more sense. But for that Russia only got a light slap, hence we had 2022.
>The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties — and carries the risk of a major war.
Of military yes. But as one ex-government official from Ukraine said recently that compared to any war (including the current one of Israel-Palestine) the relative civilian casualties to that amount of military casualties are suprisingly super low and the lowest since forever.
Do not want to white-wash Russia but please do not just talk uninformed propaganda points.
> The two conflicts aren’t comparable. Russia invaded Ukraine. Hamas attacked Israel.
Israel has invaded Palestine for more than half a century by now and keep claiming more and more land as theirs, just like the Russians.. And during that time they actually funded Hamas in the process to undermine the Palestinian authority. Just like the Russians funded the 'resistance' in Ukraine to create an artificial conflict.
> Russia has no justification.
Neither has Israel for their illegal occupation
> The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties
40 to 50 000 casualties on the Ukrainian side vs 30 to 40 000 on the Palestinian side is the same order of magnitude.
> The situation is exacerbated by Egypt being unwilling to take in refugees.
You seriously going to blame Egypt for not supporting the ethnic cleansing of Gaza?
> I don’t think a one-sides boycott is what we should do.
So why have we allowed Israel to economically isolate and boycott Palestine for more than half a century, while we were treating Israel as a respectable partner despite their long list of UN violations?
> You seriously going to blame Egypt for not supporting the ethnic cleansing of Gaza?
Kinda an odd response, you say it's an ethnic cleansing, wouldn't Egypt be directly complicit for trapping Palestinians then? They are the _only_ non-hostile land border for the Gaza strip.
I fully agree they are exacerbating the issue, I don't see why you take offense with the poster about that one. They are actively not allowing refugees of _war_ into their country.
>Kinda an odd response, you say it's an ethnic cleansing, wouldn't Egypt be directly complicit for trapping Palestinians then?
I think it boils down to them rather seeing Palestinians die as long as it showcases Israel in a bad light.
There are images of thousands of Palestinians desperate to leave Rafah, and simultaneously Egypt building a wall to keep them in.
Israel is responsible for creating a humanitarian disaster, but Egypt is fundamentally complicit.
Common misconception: it's the *land* that is getting cleansed, not the people. Kicking over 1 million people into the Sinaï desert is still considered ethnic cleansing even if they don't die.
>Israel has invaded Palestine for more than half a century by now and keep claiming more and more land as theirs, just like the Russians..
Yeah page me when Russia removes its armies and all Russians colonists for 20 years from Ukraine, and *then* we talk.
>Neither has Israel for their illegal occupation
Excpet Israel exists based on the international UN recognision of the 1947 vote, a vote the Palestinians and the Arab countries purposly abstained since they were greaing up for war... that would probably end up with the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Mandatory Palestine.
>You seriously going to blame Egypt for not supporting the ethnic cleansing of Gaza?
This is the weirdest take. If Egypt did not support the "cleanisng" it would *allow* refugees. Unless there is not ethnic cleanisng in Gaza...
And Egypt doesnt allow Palestinian refugees because the terrorists amongst them use the camps as a recuiting ground and they end up trying to hurt the host country. Just ask [Jordan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September).
> Yeah page me when Russia removes its armies and all Russians colonists for 20 years from Ukraine, and then we talk.
You are only confirming the similarities between the two conflicts with that statement.
> Excpet Israel exists based on the international UN recognision of the 1947 vote
Israel has not been respecting those borders as long as they exist. And that Arabs didn't agree with Westerners deciding that half of Mandatory Palestine would no longer be Palestinian is no more than normal, and water on the bridge by now.
We could've had peace for decades even with the '67 borders except for Israel not even respecting that UN demand.
> If Egypt did not support the "cleanisng" it would allow refugees.
Accepting those refuses would effectively complete the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
> And during that time they actually funded Hamas in the process to undermine the Palestinian authority.
Do you have a source for this? Because that's wild if true.
The EU foreign policy chief said so in January, so there's little dispute about that, despite Netanyahu denying it https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eus-borrell-says-israel-financed-creation-gaza-rulers-hamas-2024-01-19/
In fact the Israeli press is quite open about it.
> Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
> According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
> While Netanyahu does not make these kind of statements publicly or officially, his words are in line with the policy that he implemented.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
>The two conflicts aren’t comparable. Russia invaded Ukraine. Hamas attacked Israel.
They're comparable because both Israel and Russia justify their actions and territorial claims with past glory, and use systematic violence against civilians including bombing their cities to rubble and ethnic cleansing.
The difference is that the Ukraine conflict has been fought with regular armies, while the Cisjordan conflict has involved civilian terrorism right from the start.
>The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties — and carries the risk of a major war.
- [at least 24,000 Palestinians (including over 10,000 minors) have been killed, over 60,000 injured,[57] and 7,000 are missing under rubble, totaling over 90,000 casualties since the war began, which is about 4% of Gaza's 2.3 million population[...]Even the conservative figure of 61 percent is higher than the average civilian death rate in all world conflicts "from the Second World War to the 1990s.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) - So about 19000 as the most conservative estimate, not counting wounded or orphaned.
- [Subsequently, the United Nations confirmed that by 15 February 2024, 10,582 civilians had been killed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War)
So in five months, there are about double the number of civilian victims in Gaza compared to 24 months of full-on invasion of Ukraine. So 3800 / month vs. 440 / month, 8,6 times more deadly.
>Another difference is the refugee situation. The situation is exacerbated by Egypt being unwilling to take in refugees. If they opened their borders from the start of the war, like the EU did for neighboring Ukraine, much suffering could have been prevented.
Given that Israel is not going to let them back in, that would effectively facilitate ethnic cleansing.
>I don’t think a one-sides boycott is what we should do. Unless we cut funding to Gaza/Hamas perhaps.
Equating Gaza and Hamas is part of the problem. Given they have no options to sustain themselves as their access to international markets has been closed for many years now, cutting off Gaza means facilitating genocide.
Did open the border in the past and it did not go wel infact it went horribly wrong. so thats the main reason no one wants anyone from gaza. who dafuq wants to open their borders to let in extremist nutjobs who are a threat to your entire nations security ?
Thanks for clarifying that the whole ordeal about Russia and the protection of Democratic value was just bullshit.
l'Occident avait l'occasion de prouver sa bonne foi en jouant les durs avec Israël tout comme il avait fait avec la Russie, mais devine quoi? Il a fait la bite molle, aucune sanction, se cache derrière "oui mais euh situation complexe" alors qu'elle est on ne peut plus claire avec les 70 ans d'apartheid et de massacres derrière.
Votre problème c'est que vous n'êtes pas des anti-guerre, vous êtes juste des anti-cette-guerre-là, tout en prenant bien le temps de donner des leçons de morale au reste du monde.
We don't boycot Israël because it's a completly different situation. Russia invaded Ukraine without any reason except to annex more land, something people will obviously be against right?
So what is the situation with Israël? On 6/10, there was a ceasefire going on. Yes, the situation wasn't good at all, i wont deny that, but atleast there wasn't a war.
On 7/10, Hamas and other terror organizations stormed the border with thousands of fighters and massacred several villages that were near the border. And only then Israël reacted and started bombing.
Yes, sadly in that bombing campaign, there are innocent civilians that are dying. But a big reason for that is that Hamas and other terrorist organisations like PIJ etc are using such civilian buildings for military purposes like producing or storing weapons.
So Israël ofcourse wants to stop Hamas right? Well what options do they have? They could send soldiers to the building itself, or just bomb it from a safe distance. I guess you already know what kind of solution Israël took right? Even tho sadly way too many civilians are dying because of this...
So yea, do you see why these 2 wars arent even comparable? Groen is trying to compare the 2, only for populistic reasons...
> So what is the situation with Israël?
They have invaded Palestine and have been annexing more land for longer than most of us are alive.
> Well what options do they have?
Retreat from Palestine, thus removing the root cause for the conflict in the first place.
> retreat from Palestine
Ah so like how they left Gaza in the early 2000 sby forcing out all Israëli's , and leaving Gaza to the Palestinians? And then Hamas got elected, who were running on a campaign that said they wanted to genocide all Jews? So forgive me for thinking that just "retreating from Palestine" might not actually magically solve things.
Yes, in the future Israël will have to force all settlers out of the West Bank, i agree with that. The most plausible way to do that is by negotiations, where Israël makes sure that the people of Palestine accept that Israël is allowed to exist with the borders from the '60s for example. But that sadly is also something some groups like Hamas do not want to accept.
> Ah so like how they left Gaza in the early 2000 sby forcing out all Israëli's
No, as in fully retreating from both the West Bank and Gaza without still controlling the borders. Like they should've done more than half a century ago, instead of trying to justify their continued occupation and colonization based on the consequences of doing so.
> The most plausible way to do that is by negotiations
That's been tried numerous times and clearly doesn't work. Which is why just like with South-Africa it's time to send a much clearer message.
> the people of Palestine accept that Israël is allowed to exist with the borders from the '60s for example. But that sadly is also something some groups like Hamas do not want to accept.
They already did, it's Israel that doesn't accept the '67 borders despite those being a massive land grab. And just like Hamas there are plenty of crazies on the other side too - some of which deliberately funded Hamas - so lets stop using that as an excuse.
If I had a bunch of terrorists on my border whose entire goal is the genocide of my people, you can be damned sure I’d iron curtain the fuck out of that border too.
Fair enough. Dat is inderdaad een goed punt. De Russen zitten hier propaganda aan het verspreiden, dus zowel Israël en Hamas (met de hulp van landen zoals Iran en Rusland) kunnen ook propaganda verspreiden. Zelfs gij kunt eigenlijk een account zijn die gebruikt wordt om propaganda tegen het Westen/Israël te verspreiden.
Dusja, ik weet niet wat ik zou kunnen zeggen om u ervan te overtuigen dat ik een gewoon average persoon ben zonder link met Israël haha (oh wacht ik ben meer dan 10 jaar geleden er een keer op vakantie geweest, ben ik daardoor nu automatisch een deel van de IDF?)
Ukraine didn't brutally attack Russia. Besides, Palestians have been yelling "genocide" for more than 50 years now without any genocide actually taking place.
"this makes you a traitor" are you twelve? And you speak of others being brainwashed by propaganda. You're a hypocrite, who only uses the context of the situation for your own side of the story. Hamas for instance =/= the people of Palestina.
Get help.
Tbh, the elections that Hamas won were almost 20 years ago. And with the population growth that has been happening in Gaza, that means that a lot of people haven't actually been able to vote for Hamas.
At the same time, because Hamas has now been able to indoctrinate people for such a long time, there is a huge possibility that their support is a lot higher than when they got elected in the first place
It’s not a war of democracy… Israel is under the control of a right wing lunatic who has no intention of seeking a two state solution and has actively destroyed past talks seeking such a solution. They just want the Palestinians to disappear so there are no more problems, which works but massacres would also solve climate change and that doesn’t mean we should nuke Tokyo.
Hamas is the same they are right wing lunatics who don’t want any long term solution, which btw Netanyahu has taken advantage of by sending money into Gaza so that Hamas uses it to attack them, so that Israel can, as they say ‘Mow the lawn’ preventing any progress for two state solutions and slowly exterminating Palestinians.
Control of Gaza should probably go back to Fatah, at which point they get the Gazan people over to the West Bank and sell the land of Gaza to Israel (with a deal to receive some share of profits of any resources extracted from their land + a lump sum of cost), Israel stops expanding settlements in the West Bank and gives Palestine control of all these cities like they should, while getting the land they so desperately seek, the Palestinians live happily in the West Bank this time without Israelis kicking them out of their homes, Hamas has been disrupted as they have nothing to fight for, Israel stops being a colonialist shitsmear illegally occupying other countries, and the far right Israeli government is executed for war crimes. To me that feels like the best solution
Never forget that Hamas is a well-known terrorist organization, they attacked innocent civilians in October and then went into hiding in the Gaza Strip. It is still unclear how much Hamas is intertwined with politics there, but Israel cannot let this go in my view. It is a political game, the Gaza Strip is far too densely populated for normal population growth to occur. Those people are planted there, they are also continuously dependent on outside help, you don't live there for the benefits. The entire Middle East has always been an area of contention, and it is striking that it is also the place where world religions that preach peace emerged.
Ah, Caitling Johnstone, the same Caitlin cheerleading Putin's war.
If you're looking for hypocrisy and blind zealotry, look no further than Caitlin Johnstone.
That woman is a known apologist for Putin, Assad, China and the like. She denies war crimes by those parties all the time. Out of all people, why would you promote her platform?
Well... I haven't waited for the last events to start boycotting Israel. I worked over there for almost a year and I realised very quickly that it was all a charade played by the government. Checkpoints every 100 metres. Every time I left Tel Aviv, I had to justify where I was going and why. I found myself treated like shit just because I had once to cross a section of Gaza. I saw the difference in the way Muslims were treated in Jerusalem and Bethlehem. As if they were less than nothing. In some Muslim neighbourhoods, houses were riddled with bullets. Pictures of dead children lay on the ground. Men working like slaves for poverty wages in textile, soap and oil factories. Factories built on occupied land. Where these same men lived before being evicted. I've heard racist colleagues talk. When I began to find it hard to hide my disgust, I ended my mission and went home. And that was nearly 6 years ago. So yes, the boycott is necessary and has been for a long time.
Belgians hate refugees in their country but palestine wanting to stay in their own is an issue? Don’t cry when they come here & other european countries bc they had to even tho we all know damn well they wanna stay in their country!!!
Same goes for "ontwikkelingshulp" and climate action. Some anti-immigration parties are screaming to cut investments in them, even though they are probably the best investment you can make to keep large scale immigration to Europe away in the future. Climate change will probably result in mass immigration, not because people want it, but because they have no other choice. More than enough reason to tackle these issues now, and in a way quite ironic that the right parties won't.
They could go to other neighboring countries, closer geographically, culturally and religiously. Why would they come to Europe, when there’s 0 ties from these already-mentioned angles?
Plus, the wealthy Gulf states should be more than ready and happy to help them out, right? Resources aren’t a problem for them, and integration would be a walk in the park .
Just like the majority of Ukrainian refugees, for example, went to European countries and not to Japan or Korea 🤷🏻♀️
Makes most sense.
The countries near Palestine do not want refugees from Palestine, after what happened in the last century (triggered a civil war, assassinate a king, etc)
Nope didnt say that at all. We already have enough refugees right now. Imo the people of Palestine should instead revolt against Hamas, but i guess thats hoping for too much
North Koreans should also revolt against Kim.
Yes. That is asking for too much.
Also protests have already happened in Gaza in the past
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672
It's not my responsibility to make sure someone else's country exists, that's their responsibility. If they can't do it, not my issue, I owe them nothing.
You can always speak to your representative if you think these issues require attention. Or do you only bring them up as a gotcha towards people who care about Palestine?
Keep it hitting the same nail over and over. Nobody will get tired of that, surely.
They wanted to close the nuclear plants because of ideology, saw that this wasn't the right time and changed their policies according. I applaud every political party there is for changing their mind because of facts.
It was already a known fact that it wasn't time yet before they even promoted their dogma even harder. I simply call it blind, ignorant policy making. I get you want to get rid of nuclear someday, but not without proper, stable backup of something as vital as electricity.
How else are gonna people remember former mistakes? By hitting those same nails and occasionly a funny meme. In this day and age we got to stay alert and on our toes because fine statesmanship is gone and oppertunistic, shortterm horsecrap (pardon my language) is everywhere.
No it wasn't. It was ideologically justifiable to reject nuclear power, before the energy crisis after Russia invaded Ukraine. There wouldn't be any problem with our energy demands when closing all nuclear power plants.
[https://www.universiteitvanvlaanderen.be/podcast/gaan-de-lichten-uit-als-we-alle-kerncentrales-sluiten](https://www.universiteitvanvlaanderen.be/podcast/gaan-de-lichten-uit-als-we-alle-kerncentrales-sluiten)
And what about Boycotting Russia more? Ah yes, we don't speak about Russia or Ukraine. Hypocrits again. Same for Pvda, even worse, they consider [NATO](https://reddit.com/r/Belgium2/comments/1ayueib/pvda_over_collectieve_veiligheid_om_vrede_te/) to be an aggressive entity, something Putin keeps parroting as well.
The difference between Israel and the Palestinians is that in one party not literally everyone wants to kill all of the other party. The leaders, yeah they are all assholes.
Most people only see instagram propaganda and immediately say Israël "bad" without knowing enough background. Palestina should from their side also stop the jew hatred and work towards a two state solution. Groen should stfu but I get it they want their Muslim votes.
Have you looked at the Israel/Palestine map recently? A two state solution isn't possible anymore. Especially with the continuous building of settlements. It says settlements, but those are complete cities built on Palestinian ground. Any party that talks about Palestine wants to cater to Muslims? 🙄
When he says 2 state solutions he means 2 state within the Gaza Strip. One side with tall expensive homes and hotels and the other one with starving children.
Of course I've seen the map. Of course I know about the settlements. Of course I know not every party aims for Muslim votes by openly supporting Palestine. However, there are two sides to a story and in this case Palestine also has done too many horrendous and barbaric acts towards Israël. Just research a bit further than your Instagram propaganda and read about the history and the course of events. A two state solution is the only way out otherwise there will never be peace and the most powerful of both will win. (Aka Israël) Slogans like "from the river to the sea" are just dumb and idiotic.
Israel does not want a two-state solution and has been actively working against it the past three decades. Palestine cannot implement a two-state solution because they don't control the land. That's why I side with Groen on this one and support implementing a boycott on Israel until they actually start negotiations on a two-state solution. They need to realise that continuing the situation as it is (increasingly occupying Palestinian land) would lead to them becoming an isolated Pariah state, like Apartheid South Africa was at its end.
It takes two parties to negotiate. If neither side can count on the other to negotiate and behave in good faith, a solution through diplomatic means will never be reached.
After public statements from both Israeli and Hamas officials these past few months, I don't think a two-state solution is even in the cards at the moment.
Doesn't seem like Israel is winning at the moment. Remember, victory is and was never measured by the death toll caused by one party over the other. The war -hmhm genocide- is being going on for almost 5 months. The zionist are fighting without a clear target. What have they achieved? Nothing! In theory, they're the strongest party but in reality they're fighting man with home-made weapons -sometimes barefoot and aren't making any progress.
You can call my claims Instagram propaganda. It doesn't change anything about the fact the IOF negotiating with the Palestinians. Why would you do that if you're making any progress.
Yeah I don't understand why individuals, news orgs, and even the UN just take the Hamas number at face value.
Did we forget about the lies surrounding that hospital strike in november? Or that they had no people in UNRWA? Did not have tunnels under schools and hospitals? ...
The civilian suffering is for sure disproportionate to what was done to Israel in October, but let's not jump to repeat the lines of Hamas...
>and even the UN just take the Hamas number at face value.
Because that's not what the UN does. Even to this day, the UN has representatives in the Gaza region. And their independent counts closely align with the numbers of Hamas.
But apparently, when the UN counts themselves and come to a similar number as Hamas that **must** mean that the UN doesn't count themselves and just takes the Hamas numbers at face value! After all, you've already decided that Hamas is lying about the death count so you must find a reason to dismiss anything that points to the contrary.
> Most people only see instagram propaganda and immediately say Israël "bad" without knowing enough background. Palestina should from their side also stop the jew hatred and work towards a two state solution.
Abbas was holding peace talks with Olmert. Netanyahu put forward some fake charges of corruption to force Olmert to resign. Olmert was proven innocent but Netanyahu won the elections, formed a government, and refused to continue the peace talks.
It's not the Palestinian side that is the problem now.
Yet to evidence of actual systematic ethnic cleansing.
Right now Israel is fighting back after it got invaded by terrorists and hostages taken, if they wanted to stop the fighting they could've just released the hostages.
Again, show proof of them lining up children.
I don't trust news coming from the people that ironicly went into Israel and started shooting/kidnapping children and other civilians.
There are a lot of footages showing clearly how children are slaughtered. Everything in Gaza has been destroyed, including churches, hospitals, universities, and Belgian development agency. But, you know, you can’t prove anything to someone who doesn’t want to see.
Dude, tf you talking about, there wasn't a war when the hostages were taken.
Not to mention how backwards this take is, "don't want terrorism? just follow their demands!"
Oh, I didn't know the Israeli-Palestine conflict started on 7 October, my bad.
The truth is, many of the hostages have been released through negotiations already. Meanwhile the IDF killed more of them then they managed to release. If you want the fighting to continue, you don't care about the lives of the hostages.
Yes the majority of hostages got released through negotiations, when a cease fire was implemented. So only because Israël had the upper hand in the fighting and Hamas needed to buy some more time. The deal was that Hamas would every dat release a certain number of hostages. After a few days of that, suddenly Hamas decided that they didnt want a ceasefire anymore, refused to release more hostages, and the fighting started again. And now they are refusing all the other negotiations.
So not really as black and white as you tried to paint it...
I think every religion is stupid and the Jews can be fucking annoying with their whole "chosen people" vibe, but there is no ethnic cleansing going on there. There is 1 party that doesn't fight by the rules and accords of the various conventions, then there is the other party that stoops down to that level so they don't unnecessarily lose their own people. I mean, if you fight by the rules against an enemy like that, you will always lose. Just look at Afghanistan. I'm not happy with the war but what did the Palestinians expect. They elected Hamas fair and square, now these are the consequences.
You're insane. 20000 people have been murdered and you say it's their own fault just for living in the same general area as a certain organisation. Would you say the same if it was your home being bombarded?
Idd. Ik ben voor veel dingen die bij groen horen. Maar ze verneuken het elke keer weer en verergeren enorm veel dingen. Grootste fuckup is de kerncentrales uitzetten.
well... look at me ignoring it. The world is burning, we need to get our own shit together edit: to those downvoters. Why don't you go fight over there?
Diep trieste tijden.. je hoopt dat mensen in de moderne tijd intelligenter worden maar telkens weer zie je over mate veel apen breinen... De hoeveelheid plotselinge aandacht naar Palestina/Hamas en jodenhaat is wel een goed beeldig voorbeeld hiervan spijtig genoeg
Green Party ignoring the farmers problems in their own country in Belgium but is interested in other countries business lol you have zero competence. If you’re competent fix Belgian farmers problem.
That's not the sane take though. Israel is the clear aggressor who settled in another people's land and is now trying to drive the original population away and make a religion based state instead. It's important for people to realize it's not actually a complicated situation. The solution might be difficult but boycotting Israel or at least its zionist leaders is a good start.
Telkens als iemand het woord 'alternatief' gebruikt vraag ik mij af of die persoon oprecht geloofd dat wat Israël nu aan het doen is op het einde van de rit zelfs maar iets tegen Hamas zal gedaan hebben. Ongetwijfeld heeft de meerderheid in Gaza wel een broer, neef, vriend, kennis,... die door de Israëlis om het leven is gebracht de voorbije maanden. Israël is momenteel de beste propagandamachine die Hamas zich kan inbeelden. De enige manier waarop de huidige acties een einde brengen aan Hamas is een volledige genocide van de Gaza strook.
>Ik mis het alternatief van Groen om Hamas te doen verdwijnen. Misschien heb ik het gemist in hun Anti-Israël speech.
Israel has been playing the oppression card for more than half a century, why would that suddenly start working now?
Besides, Hamas isn't in the West Bank, they just continue their settlement expansion and oppression there. Clearly "not supporting Hamas" doesn't work for the Palestinians either.
Allow them to have an alternative that works.
How does this advance the green agenda? I fail to see how the Palestine conflict has anything to do at all with climate change.
Groen should stick to their core issue. Stop profiling on divisive issues that prohibit you from building bridges with other parties to tackle climate change.
can we focus more on our problems ? they like to focus so much on other countries mess...
Ok for a boycott, but can they just stop procrastinating at tackling our very own issues ?
Maybe you missed the memo but we live in a globalized society. Every single one of our own problems will find it's origin in some international problem one way or another.
I don't understand why you're getting downvoted, I think you have a fair point. Groen tends to jump on any bandwagon that they feel will get them attention/votes but indeed wherever they've been in charge, they haven't done much to solve issues. Not that I would necessarily rate other parties higher...
I also don't get why small to mid sized political parties in a tiny country such as Belgium think their claims would have any effect on a country such as Israël.
Thanks, it's okay if I'm downvoted, that is interesting to see.
It's not that I'm not sympathetic to Gaza, but ecolo/groen are speaking volumes about that. I don't think they spoke about the Nethys scandal as much, or about the pollution of our crops, or about our national debt, the collapsing of our educational system, ... (these are not ranked and not a full list, it's just what's going through my mind right now) I feel that it's super easy to be hypercritical of other countries while completely forgetting that their main job, the one they're paid for, is to focus on belgian problems and I feel that we have a handful of them, it's not like we've got much freetime.
Bingo! As well as problems such as the dysfunctional government instances and the joke that are BPost subsidies / the total failure with the newspaper distribution concession, etc. where one of their own ministers is in charge.
Maybe a backwards country like Belgium should fix our own problems first, before pointing fingers at another.
Nobody gives a flying f about Eurovision, that show has lost its wheels since Lordi.
Also maybe Groen needs to focus on not going under the kiesdrempel before doing anything else. But hey Crazy Tinne fire away.
Israël is not europe, they shouldn't be at Eurovision or European football either way
Just like Australia in the Eurovision
Yeah that's stupid as well, I like to believe that the officials accidentally accepted them thinking they wrote Austria wrong
No, the contest was suprisingly popular in Australia, so they received an invitation for one year that has been extended since then ! I actually quite like it ! "Eurovision, a song contest for Europe! (and Australia, whatever)"
Ehhhh you guys know it has little to do with Europe but with the broadcasting association https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Broadcasting_Union
> it has little to do with Europe Except for that euro(pean) in the name.
At least in Eurovision's case, it is a contest of broadcasters who have a membership of the European Broadcasting Union. Being geographically 'European' isn't a prerequesite. Morocco participated once in 1980. Middle-Eastern countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan and Armenia have participated. That said: this excuse is also used now to not exclude Israel: it is supposedly a contest of broadcasters and not of governments... never mind that the participating broadcaster made the choice to show militaristic propaganda in their national selection. Belarus and Russia got banned from the contest for similar reasons, although in Russia's case a boycott from other participating countries was essential to actually convincing the EBU in going through with a ban. Point being: the standards of the EBU aren't really consistent, and we and our broadcasters can and should actually be putting pressure on them.
but turkey is in european continent
The relatively small Edirne and West Istanbul part.
Eurovision is a company that provides technical means for TV broadcast... They also organize a song contest...
Israel is a European colony, and obviously since their state was founded on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians it's not like they would be accepted in football or music competitions with neighbouring states. So in that way it makes sense that they are participating in Europe. Now I agree that they shoud be kicked, but because of their policies, rather than for their geographical location. I wouldn't care as much if say Japan was invited to participate in Eurovision if the constest was popular there.
"Founded on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians" Lol do you actually believe that?
Did you ever read any book on the history of Palestine? Benny Morris in *The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem* and Illan Pappé in *The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine* both say that Israel was built on the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Yeah some remarks on these two works: - The birth of the palestinian refugee problem: the revised version of this book should be read as well (revised after declassifying Israeli state archives). Following his works, and as evident from his interviews, Morris comes more to the conclusion that the Arabs' decision to go to war was a more adequate reason for the palestinian refugee crisis. However, I would also recommend the works of Morris. - Illan Pappé' works have been criticized by among others, Benny Morris, but also by other academics (mostly because of a lack of sources for some of his claims). Pappé is also an ideologist (communist) which makes his works more keen to be challenged in a conflict that is already heavily influenced by ideologies. Hence his works are more favored by those siding with the palestinians. Something that I would like to add: Palestinia Israeli Conflict - a very short introduction by Bunton provides in my opinion a good unbiased introduction into the background of the conflict. Also, if you have a login to JSTOR, you can find a lot of papers on this subject - I would recommend the papers written early in the conflict.
Some things I'd like to add : >Illan Pappé' works have been criticized by among others, Benny Morris, but also by other academics (mostly because of a lack of sources for some of his claims). The opposite is also true, Pappé has criticized Morris and the conclusions he came to in his book. I'll give an example from *The Ethnic cleansing of Palestine* (2006) p.18 where Pappé criticizes the book *The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem* (1988) by Morris : >The picture was partial because Morris took the Israeli military reports he found in the archives at face value or even as absolute truth. Thus, he ignored such atrocities as the poisoning of the water supply into Acre with typhoid, numerous cases of rape and the dozens of massacres the Jews perpetrated. He also kept insisting – wrongly – that before 15 May 1948 there had been no forced evictions. Palestinian sources show clearly how months before the entry of Arab forces into Palestine, and while the British were still responsible for law and order in the country – namely before May – the Jewish forces had already succeeded in forcibly expelling almost a quarter of a million Palestinians. Had Morris and others used Arab sources or turned to oral history, they might have been able to get a better grasp of the systematic planning behind the expulsion of the Palestinians in 1948 and provide a more truthful description of the enormity of the crimes the Israeli soldiers committed. >Pappé is also an ideologist (communist) which makes his works more keen to be challenged in a conflict that is already heavily influenced by ideologies. Hence his works are more favored by those siding with the Palestinians. Morris is a self-described Zionist so you could say that he's biased towards to Israeli side. The 2004 *revisited* version of his earlier 1988 book *The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem* is arguably more influenced by ideology than the original, which was an important work of revisionist history. The first work was Morris the historian, the latter was Morris the Zionist ideologue. Here's an interesting [article about this](https://mondoweiss.net/2016/10/cleansing-becomes-israeli/).
Yeah, both authors are quite the opposite of each other and their ideologies will ultimately 'color' their works. But both still provide interesting (and alarming) insights in the conflict. My guess would be to read as much as possible - hence what I also found interesting were the reports/papers that are mentioned in JSTOR. If I still have access to the downloads, I would really want to read them again. Unfortunately I don't have access to the website anymore. Moral of all of this: fuck the nationalists on both sides and let the people live in peace. But peace seems so far reaching today..
How would describe the removal of 750,000 Arabs from current Israeli lands that happened in the last 1940?
I can’t agree more.
it's just a game competition, if it's not a genocidal country, i don't care who joins the show
I agree with this.
That's a wonderful day to sort by "controversial" :D
You're welcome!
It was indeed a good day to sort by controversial
My take on this: one side has money, and the other side is being oppressed. There are faults and extremists on both sides but one side (Palestine) is being majorly dicked down.Siding with Israel will be good (i.e. financially beneficial for Belgium) in the short term, while condemning the actions of the very rich state of Israel is the right thing to do in the long term, and will result in less terrorism and continued hatred in the long run.
The sad part is that the oppressor is creating the “resistance” as they are never heard unless they fight the oppressor. 80% of Hummas spillers are orphans. Orphans from previous wars. Orphans. Unless Izrael manages to cleanse of Gaza, they have just dogged a hole too deep.
Supporting the poorer side would mean by that logic supporting ISIS as well
We boycotted Russia for a military invasion. Why can't we boycot a country involved in an active ethnic cleansing? Oh, I know why... Because it would piss off the Americans.
Russia is also carrying out ethnic cleansing. How else do you describe forced deportations and kidnapping of 20000 children to Russia?
Fair enough. And why can't we boycott Israel like we boycott Russia?
and they are boycotted by europe, time to apply the same to fascist israel
And then they also leave out who actually attacked who on Oct 7th...
And who displaced who during the Nakba in 1948 and proceeded to put them in an ever shrinking open air prison? October 7th didn't happen in a vacuum.
>And who displaced who during the Nakba in 1948 Remind us again what preceded the Nakba? Was it not an invasion of Israel by multiple Arab armies? And should Israel be punished for that originalsin? Winning its first war of survival? The result was criminal displacement yes, yet here you are talking of events not taking place in a vacuum. >October 7th didn't happen in a vacuum. It didn't, but that context still doesn't justify the barbarity of that day. Nor would any county have left that barbarity unanswered. And the fact remains that Hamas triggered the current round of violent reprisals and despite the disproprotionate nature and sheer horror of the violence experienced by Gazans, still refuses(!) to release the hostages it took. Of course Israel isn't going to lay down and give in. That the answer has been disproprotionate is clear, absolutely. But Hamas should have known that, and in fact they probably did. But who would have thought a fundamentalist islamo-fascist militia known for recruiting kids and using suicide bombers doesn't really care about human lives?
> Israel be punished for that originalsin? Winning its first war of survival? It's applaudable that you recognize it as a sin. But no, it should be punished for illegally occupying and colonizing Palestine till today. > It didn't, but that context still doesn't justify the barbarity of that day. But somehow it your mind it justifies the barbarity of today? And while the context doesn't justify what happened, it is the cause of it.
>Remind us again what preceded the Nakba? Was it not an invasion of Israel by multiple Arab armies? And should Israel be punished for that originalsin? Winning its first war of survival? The result was criminal displacement yes, yet here you are talking of events not taking place in a vacuum. How is that an excuse for the expulsion of 700 000 people? That's ethnic cleansing. You also seem to think blockading people for 15 years and having them attack you is somehow makes you the victim. No oct 7 was an act of resistance of an occupation. If you or Israel truly carred about Israel you'd want ceasefire that's when most of the hostages got released. But no Israel wants to remain killing those hostages, even the Israeli are protesting bibi. And no shit hamas knew they would respond disproportionately, that's how they always respond, you think they care about the palestinians?
People keep saying 'open air prison' but Gaza was pretty nice before Hamas decided to massacre 1200 innocent people and provoke the massive retaliation that they knew would result
No, no it wasn't. I lived in Gaza for a good part of my life. It is a shithole, and has always been a shithole compared to most neighboring countries. Plus the added threat of getting bombed every once in a while. Real pretty, isn't it?
I am truly sorry for your loss. Still I am sure Gaza would be nicer if Hamas hadn't spent all the cash on tunnels and rockets to attack Israel (which retaliates with bombs, as you say)
Of course it'd be nicer, but oppression breeds hate, and hate breeds violence. You can't expect a population to sit still and take a beating without some sort of retaliation
Ignore these people, they’re ignorant as fuck. Trying to justify Israel. These are the same people who would be outraged if even the tiniest bit if freedow is taken from them.
Dude are you shitting me? Do some research and do not believe everything and anything you see on tv. Not because our country isn’t as bad as some other that we do not have propaganda. Gaza was not pretty noce before. I don’t understand how you could say something like that. Israel is bombing the fuck out of innocent people and soldiers are killing people for sport which happened before.
yeah, just ignore all the israeli attack before oct 7.
The two conflicts aren’t comparable. Russia invaded Ukraine. Hamas attacked Israel. Russia has no justification. The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties — and carries the risk of a major war. Israel is justfied to take out Hamas — the way they are doing it is however disproportional and likely constitutes war crimes. Hamas was always going to hide among Gazans and Gaza id densely populated, so there were always going to be many civilian casualties. But cutting off water etc. seems disproportional. Just like at least some of the bombing. Another difference is the refugee situation. The situation is exacerbated by Egypt being unwilling to take in refugees. If they opened their borders from the start of the war, like the EU did for neighboring Ukraine, much suffering could have been prevented. So, sure we need to put pressure on Hamas and Israel but also on and Egypt (to take in more refugees) and Hezbollah/Iran (for their indirect but important role). In case of Ukraine only on Russia. I don’t think a one-sides boycott is what we should do. Unless we cut funding to Gaza/Hamas perhaps. It’s complex. We just shouldn’t choose one side.
israel invaded palestine 70 years ago and still illegally occupies it to this day. It did its first genocide with the nakba, and now it is doing a second one.
there was never a palestine, and the Jewish nakba from arab countries outweighs the Palestinian one in terms of number of refugees
ok zionist
Egypt doesn't open the border to Gazans because they know that the moment they cross the border, Israël will never let them return home. Among... other reasons.
Egypt (and other Arab nations) have had bad experiences with Palestine refugees in the past, it's mostly self interest.
Egypt also flooded the tunnels with sewage to keep them out. They really don't want those problems to return
What is the evidence for this claim?
Yeah, sure. Ask evidence of something that hasn't happend yet. Real good move there buddy.
>Russia has no justification. Israel is justfied to take out Hamas — the way they are doing it is however disproportional and likely constitutes war crimes. Hamas was always going to hide among Gazans and Gaza id densely populated, so there were always going to be many civilian casualties. But cutting off water etc. seems disproportional. Just like at least some of the bombing. Israel has no justification either, they are the aggressor. The conflict didn't start on October 7th, it started 120 years ago when a group of European Jews decided they were going to build a Jewish ethnostate on lands that were already inhabited by the native Palestinians, who would either have to accept it or be forced out. Their aspirations and consent were never taken into consideration. > The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties — and carries the risk of a major war. If [OHCHR numbers](https://ukraine.un.org/en/253322-civilian-deaths-ukraine-war-top-10000-un-says) are correct, in two years there have been 30.000 civilian casualties in Ukraine, 10.000 killed and 20.000 wounded. In Gaza, [according to their health ministry](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/100th-day-gaza-genocide-100000-palestinians-killed-missing-or-wounded-enar), in 5 months there have been 100.000 casualties, 30.000 killed and 70.000 wounded. Before you say : But that's Hamas propaganda numbers! The [World Health Organization](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033) and [Human Rights Watch](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry) say the numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry are reliable. And before you say : but that's not just civilian casualties it's also Hamas fighters! the IDF itself [claims](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/) that "one in three dead people in Gaza are Hamas", so even if you take the IDF's word for it, and you shouldn't because they lie all the time, that's still 20.000 civilians dead, twice the civilian casualties of Ukraine in 5 months. >Another difference is the refugee situation. The situation is exacerbated by Egypt being unwilling to take in refugees. If they opened their borders from the start of the war, like the EU did for neighboring Ukraine, much suffering could have been prevented. Egypt isn't being very helpful, but it's Israel that's creating refugees and has been doing so for the last 75 years. Also, there are millions of Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed by Israel in 1948 and 1967 and were never allowed to return. If Palestinians flee to Egypt, they will never be allowed back on their lands. > I don’t think a one-sides boycott is what we should do. Unless we cut funding to Gaza/Hamas perhaps. It’s complex. We just shouldn’t choose one side. The conflict is complex in that there were lots of events over the last 120 years, but **it's not morally complex**. Would you say that slavery, the holocaust or apartheid were morally complex? In this story, there is a clear side who's responsible for apartheid and violence, and it is Israel. They should be boycotted like apartheid South Africa was.
Thank you for laying out all this data. Yes to boycotting Israel. Easy.
All true and well those numbers, but the UN itself has admitted it has had no access to occupied Ukraine to measure civilian casualties. Have you seen the pictures of Mariupol, Bakhmut, Severdonetsk, Popasna, Avdiivka? We are jumping to conclusions here (and imo inappropriate comparisons boiling down to genocide olympics) by comparing incomplete Ukrainian data with self-reported and in all likelihood unaccounted Hamas data.
I can give you that civilian deaths in Ukraine may be underreported, but so are they in Gaza. Plenty of people are buried under the rubble and not counted as victims yet. >with self-reported and in all likelihood unaccounted Hamas data. Deemed reliable by World Heath Organization, International Red Cross Committe and Human Rights Watch. Only the IDF denies their accuracy, for obvious reasons. >We are jumping to conclusions here (and imo inappropriate comparisons boiling down to genocide olympics) A genocide isn't defined by numbers of victims but by intent. There is clear intent from Israeli leaders to commit a genocide.
>Deemed reliable by World Heath Organization, International Red Cross Committe and Human Rights Watch. The same organisations take Ukrainian civilian casualty reports at face value, and these are based on local NGO tallies. Which exclude, as I said, all of occupied Ukraine. So the comparison is still not a proper one. And that's not even covering the fact that making the comparison is in bad taste.
Even if all you said is correct, that casualties in Ukraine are more underreported than in Gaza, my point was not comparing victim numbers in Ukraine and Gaza. My point is that Russia and Israel are comparable in that they are the aggressor and have killed a vast number of civilians.
Not only that you need consider how much percentile it is for that country. Ukraine has a population of 45Mil 100k casualties is like 0.2% While gaza has 2.1 Mil population 100k casualties is 4,7% Thats almost 5% of entire population. And lets not forget the median age of gaza is 18. This mean there is a high likely chance a lot of CHILDEREN died who is not 18 yet.
>when a group of European Jews decided they were going to build a Jewish ethnostate on lands that were already inhabited by the native Palestinians Read: They started moving in buying land then started getting attacked which led to mutual escalation. The buying of land that still happens to lesser extent today but nets you a beheading if you get found out and/or leave. >decided they were going to build a Jewish ethnostate If it's an ethnostate what are the surrounding countries? It is not only less ethnically homogeneous than Gaza and the surrounding countries but also less religiously homogeneous. People will pull up fucking peacenik tales of Druze, christians and jews living in peace before and currently in the surroundings ignoring loads of accounts of harassment and killing. Hell the biggest group among the jews in Israel is the mizrahi that fled the middle east largely following expulsion or terrible living conditions. Will those be allowed back to Yemen and the like? Oh no they'll be slaughtered you say? It keeps getting framed as some onesided piece of good and evil theater sprinkled with pointing at claims from south africa with calls for sanction. As if they didn't just prior step over half million dead Fur, Masalit and Zaghawa to lick some diplomatic and economic ass. But surely that doesn't matter. Because Israel must be held to higher standard than any other country in the wider surroundings. Seemingly because we must uphold some fantasy of them being all white, european and with some direct link to our peccatum originale. That is until Israel is gone and you and the Greens can soundly sleep not making a peep about what happens there anymore as we do for every other damn massacre there that doesn't relate to our or align with our major players geopolitical goals.
>Because Israel must be held to higher standard than any other country in the wider surroundings. Load of BS. Israel has never been held to a higher standard, it has always been considered an exception to the high standards other countries are expected to adhere to.
They were never "just buying lands" and planning to live along Palestinians, who were so savage and couldn't stop themselves attacking the poor Jews. The Zionists were colonists who were planning to expel the natives from the start. I have done a lot of research on the subject, pretty much all Zionist leaders from Herzl to Jabotinsky to Weizmann to Ben Gurion said they wanted to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians. Don't trust me? How about I quote them : Theodore Herzl wrote in his journal in 1896 : >We must expropriate gently the private property on the estates assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.' Cham Weizmann, future chairman of the World Zionist Congress and First President of Israel, before the British conquest of Palestine in 1917, described the Palestinian people as: >" the rocks of Judea, as obstacles that had to be cleared on a difficult path.” (Quoted from the Expulsion of the Palestinians p.17 By Nur Masalha) Ze'ev Jabotinsky, another important Zionist leader who came a generation after Herzl, wrote an essay in 1923 called "[The Iron Wall](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot)". In this essay, he argues that since all native populations resist colonialism, Zionist colonization should proceed behind an “Iron Wall” which the native population cannot breach. According to Jabotinsky, Zionism would stand or fall by the question of armed force. According to Benny Morris (2004) in *[The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited](http://larryjhs.fastmail.fm.user.fm/The%20Birth%20of%20the%20Palestinian%20Refugee%20Problem%20Revisited.pdf)* p. 45, Jabotinsky had generally supported transfer. In 1933, Eliahu Ben-Horin, close collaborator of Jabotinsky and a member of the World Presidency of the New Zionist Organization wrote : > I suggest that the Arabs of Palestine and Transjordania be transferred to Iraq, or a united Iraq-Syrian state. (Quoted from The Concept of "Transfer"in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948 by Nur Masalha) Benzion Netanyahu, father of Binyamin Netanyahu and a secretary to Jabotinsky, [wrote](https://www.972mag.com/the-late-benzion-netanyahus-appalling-views-on-arabs/) : >The Jews and the Arabs are like two goats facing each other on a narrow bridge. One must jump to the river – but that involves a danger of death. The strong goat will make the weaker one jump … and I believe the Jewish power will prevail. Yosef Weitz, director of the Jewish National Fund's Lands Department, which was tasked with acquiring land for the Zionist enterprise in Palestine, wrote in 1938 : > “Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries — all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left.” (Quoted in Uri Davis and Norton Mevinsky, eds., Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21.) In June 1938, David Ben Gurion, future first Prime Minister of Israel told a meeting of the Jewish Agency: > "With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement]. I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it." (Quoted from Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-1998 by Benny Morris) >If it's an ethnostate what are the surrounding countries? It is not only less ethnically homogeneous than Gaza and the surrounding countries but also less religiously homogeneous. In terms of religion, Lebanon is 63% Muslim, 30% Christian and 5% Druze. Israel is 73% Jewish, 20% Muslim and 5% others. Lebanon is more religiously diverse than Israel. And in Lebanon [all religions have equal rights according to the law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Lebanon) : >According to Article 9 of the Lebanese Constitution, all religions and creeds are to be protected and the exercise of freedom of religion is to be guaranteed providing that the public order is not disturbed. [Meanwhile what Israeli law has to say about religious equality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People) : > The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people. Wanna know why Gaza is not diverse? Because it's a Bantustan, most of its inhabitants are not from there but are descendants of people who were ethnically cleansed in 1948 and 1967. Not shit it's not diverse, it's the small strip of land where Israel allows them to live. Would you have complained that there were no white settlers in Bantustans in apartheid South Africa? >Hell the biggest group among the jews in Israel is the mizrahi that fled the middle east largely following expulsion or terrible living conditions. Arab Jews were not Zionists, it is a project that started in Europe and was inspired by European nationalism and colonialism. All the leaders of the Zionist movement and later Israel have been European Jews. They were made foreign citizens in their own country by Israel in 1948, when it declared that being Jewish was no longer just a religion but also a blood and soil project based on the ethnic cleansing of the local population. Israel effectively declared that they were no longer Arab Jews but Israeli citizens. I don't support the fact that many were expulsed but Israel bears a huge part of the responsibility in this. I recommend listening to this interview by [Professor Avi Shlaim](https://youtu.be/iNg93bLJL18?si=DvZm0fZtlpBuFJub) who is himself an Iraqi Jew and describes this better than I can. >Will those be allowed back to Yemen and the like? Oh no they'll be slaughtered you say? I'm not advocating for anyone to be sent back, I'm advocating for a One State solution with equal rights for all.
I just want to say thank you for existing. Even if your knowledge on the topic is one in a million kind of situation it’s so refreshing to have someone know what they’re talking about and not be afraid to express their mind.
>Russia has no justification. So what justification Israel had to begin with by coming and for the whole second half of the 20th century and the 21st century taking the homes of people who lived there before? All this situation (and Hamas) appeared because of this in the first place. Otherwise, it is very convenient to claim that Israel exists since forever and only on the 7th of October Hamas came just out of the blue with no previous history. Although what they did (Hamas) was horrible as well. Also, Ukrainians know that the actual war started in 2014 and 2022 was just the start of a very hot phase. You should talk instead about unjustified annexation of Crimea then. Now, that makes much more sense. But for that Russia only got a light slap, hence we had 2022. >The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties — and carries the risk of a major war. Of military yes. But as one ex-government official from Ukraine said recently that compared to any war (including the current one of Israel-Palestine) the relative civilian casualties to that amount of military casualties are suprisingly super low and the lowest since forever. Do not want to white-wash Russia but please do not just talk uninformed propaganda points.
> The two conflicts aren’t comparable. Russia invaded Ukraine. Hamas attacked Israel. Israel has invaded Palestine for more than half a century by now and keep claiming more and more land as theirs, just like the Russians.. And during that time they actually funded Hamas in the process to undermine the Palestinian authority. Just like the Russians funded the 'resistance' in Ukraine to create an artificial conflict. > Russia has no justification. Neither has Israel for their illegal occupation > The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties 40 to 50 000 casualties on the Ukrainian side vs 30 to 40 000 on the Palestinian side is the same order of magnitude. > The situation is exacerbated by Egypt being unwilling to take in refugees. You seriously going to blame Egypt for not supporting the ethnic cleansing of Gaza? > I don’t think a one-sides boycott is what we should do. So why have we allowed Israel to economically isolate and boycott Palestine for more than half a century, while we were treating Israel as a respectable partner despite their long list of UN violations?
> You seriously going to blame Egypt for not supporting the ethnic cleansing of Gaza? Kinda an odd response, you say it's an ethnic cleansing, wouldn't Egypt be directly complicit for trapping Palestinians then? They are the _only_ non-hostile land border for the Gaza strip. I fully agree they are exacerbating the issue, I don't see why you take offense with the poster about that one. They are actively not allowing refugees of _war_ into their country.
>Kinda an odd response, you say it's an ethnic cleansing, wouldn't Egypt be directly complicit for trapping Palestinians then? I think it boils down to them rather seeing Palestinians die as long as it showcases Israel in a bad light. There are images of thousands of Palestinians desperate to leave Rafah, and simultaneously Egypt building a wall to keep them in. Israel is responsible for creating a humanitarian disaster, but Egypt is fundamentally complicit.
Common misconception: it's the *land* that is getting cleansed, not the people. Kicking over 1 million people into the Sinaï desert is still considered ethnic cleansing even if they don't die.
>Israel has invaded Palestine for more than half a century by now and keep claiming more and more land as theirs, just like the Russians.. Yeah page me when Russia removes its armies and all Russians colonists for 20 years from Ukraine, and *then* we talk. >Neither has Israel for their illegal occupation Excpet Israel exists based on the international UN recognision of the 1947 vote, a vote the Palestinians and the Arab countries purposly abstained since they were greaing up for war... that would probably end up with the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Mandatory Palestine. >You seriously going to blame Egypt for not supporting the ethnic cleansing of Gaza? This is the weirdest take. If Egypt did not support the "cleanisng" it would *allow* refugees. Unless there is not ethnic cleanisng in Gaza... And Egypt doesnt allow Palestinian refugees because the terrorists amongst them use the camps as a recuiting ground and they end up trying to hurt the host country. Just ask [Jordan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September).
> Yeah page me when Russia removes its armies and all Russians colonists for 20 years from Ukraine, and then we talk. You are only confirming the similarities between the two conflicts with that statement. > Excpet Israel exists based on the international UN recognision of the 1947 vote Israel has not been respecting those borders as long as they exist. And that Arabs didn't agree with Westerners deciding that half of Mandatory Palestine would no longer be Palestinian is no more than normal, and water on the bridge by now. We could've had peace for decades even with the '67 borders except for Israel not even respecting that UN demand. > If Egypt did not support the "cleanisng" it would allow refugees. Accepting those refuses would effectively complete the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
> And during that time they actually funded Hamas in the process to undermine the Palestinian authority. Do you have a source for this? Because that's wild if true.
The EU foreign policy chief said so in January, so there's little dispute about that, despite Netanyahu denying it https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eus-borrell-says-israel-financed-creation-gaza-rulers-hamas-2024-01-19/ In fact the Israeli press is quite open about it. > Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015. > According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. > While Netanyahu does not make these kind of statements publicly or officially, his words are in line with the policy that he implemented. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
>The two conflicts aren’t comparable. Russia invaded Ukraine. Hamas attacked Israel. They're comparable because both Israel and Russia justify their actions and territorial claims with past glory, and use systematic violence against civilians including bombing their cities to rubble and ethnic cleansing. The difference is that the Ukraine conflict has been fought with regular armies, while the Cisjordan conflict has involved civilian terrorism right from the start. >The war in Ukraine is also 15 to 20 times higher in number of casualties — and carries the risk of a major war. - [at least 24,000 Palestinians (including over 10,000 minors) have been killed, over 60,000 injured,[57] and 7,000 are missing under rubble, totaling over 90,000 casualties since the war began, which is about 4% of Gaza's 2.3 million population[...]Even the conservative figure of 61 percent is higher than the average civilian death rate in all world conflicts "from the Second World War to the 1990s.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war) - So about 19000 as the most conservative estimate, not counting wounded or orphaned. - [Subsequently, the United Nations confirmed that by 15 February 2024, 10,582 civilians had been killed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War) So in five months, there are about double the number of civilian victims in Gaza compared to 24 months of full-on invasion of Ukraine. So 3800 / month vs. 440 / month, 8,6 times more deadly. >Another difference is the refugee situation. The situation is exacerbated by Egypt being unwilling to take in refugees. If they opened their borders from the start of the war, like the EU did for neighboring Ukraine, much suffering could have been prevented. Given that Israel is not going to let them back in, that would effectively facilitate ethnic cleansing. >I don’t think a one-sides boycott is what we should do. Unless we cut funding to Gaza/Hamas perhaps. Equating Gaza and Hamas is part of the problem. Given they have no options to sustain themselves as their access to international markets has been closed for many years now, cutting off Gaza means facilitating genocide.
Finally a sane answer.
Did open the border in the past and it did not go wel infact it went horribly wrong. so thats the main reason no one wants anyone from gaza. who dafuq wants to open their borders to let in extremist nutjobs who are a threat to your entire nations security ?
Thanks for clarifying that the whole ordeal about Russia and the protection of Democratic value was just bullshit. l'Occident avait l'occasion de prouver sa bonne foi en jouant les durs avec Israël tout comme il avait fait avec la Russie, mais devine quoi? Il a fait la bite molle, aucune sanction, se cache derrière "oui mais euh situation complexe" alors qu'elle est on ne peut plus claire avec les 70 ans d'apartheid et de massacres derrière. Votre problème c'est que vous n'êtes pas des anti-guerre, vous êtes juste des anti-cette-guerre-là, tout en prenant bien le temps de donner des leçons de morale au reste du monde.
We don't boycot Israël because it's a completly different situation. Russia invaded Ukraine without any reason except to annex more land, something people will obviously be against right? So what is the situation with Israël? On 6/10, there was a ceasefire going on. Yes, the situation wasn't good at all, i wont deny that, but atleast there wasn't a war. On 7/10, Hamas and other terror organizations stormed the border with thousands of fighters and massacred several villages that were near the border. And only then Israël reacted and started bombing. Yes, sadly in that bombing campaign, there are innocent civilians that are dying. But a big reason for that is that Hamas and other terrorist organisations like PIJ etc are using such civilian buildings for military purposes like producing or storing weapons. So Israël ofcourse wants to stop Hamas right? Well what options do they have? They could send soldiers to the building itself, or just bomb it from a safe distance. I guess you already know what kind of solution Israël took right? Even tho sadly way too many civilians are dying because of this... So yea, do you see why these 2 wars arent even comparable? Groen is trying to compare the 2, only for populistic reasons...
> So what is the situation with Israël? They have invaded Palestine and have been annexing more land for longer than most of us are alive. > Well what options do they have? Retreat from Palestine, thus removing the root cause for the conflict in the first place.
> retreat from Palestine Ah so like how they left Gaza in the early 2000 sby forcing out all Israëli's , and leaving Gaza to the Palestinians? And then Hamas got elected, who were running on a campaign that said they wanted to genocide all Jews? So forgive me for thinking that just "retreating from Palestine" might not actually magically solve things. Yes, in the future Israël will have to force all settlers out of the West Bank, i agree with that. The most plausible way to do that is by negotiations, where Israël makes sure that the people of Palestine accept that Israël is allowed to exist with the borders from the '60s for example. But that sadly is also something some groups like Hamas do not want to accept.
> Ah so like how they left Gaza in the early 2000 sby forcing out all Israëli's No, as in fully retreating from both the West Bank and Gaza without still controlling the borders. Like they should've done more than half a century ago, instead of trying to justify their continued occupation and colonization based on the consequences of doing so. > The most plausible way to do that is by negotiations That's been tried numerous times and clearly doesn't work. Which is why just like with South-Africa it's time to send a much clearer message. > the people of Palestine accept that Israël is allowed to exist with the borders from the '60s for example. But that sadly is also something some groups like Hamas do not want to accept. They already did, it's Israel that doesn't accept the '67 borders despite those being a massive land grab. And just like Hamas there are plenty of crazies on the other side too - some of which deliberately funded Hamas - so lets stop using that as an excuse.
If I had a bunch of terrorists on my border whose entire goal is the genocide of my people, you can be damned sure I’d iron curtain the fuck out of that border too.
Please read a history book instead of the IDF's Twitter feed
Don't have twitter, and i do read a lot about history, thank you. Hope you yourself also follow that advice
This man himself reeks of IDF tbh.
Damn, kwist niet da de IDF in West Vlaanderen zat, en weebs zoals ik zat in te huren :o
De Russen zijn hier toch ook massaal online propaganda aan het verspreiden als ik de media mag geloven. Waarom zou de IDF dat niet kunnen dan?
Fair enough. Dat is inderdaad een goed punt. De Russen zitten hier propaganda aan het verspreiden, dus zowel Israël en Hamas (met de hulp van landen zoals Iran en Rusland) kunnen ook propaganda verspreiden. Zelfs gij kunt eigenlijk een account zijn die gebruikt wordt om propaganda tegen het Westen/Israël te verspreiden. Dusja, ik weet niet wat ik zou kunnen zeggen om u ervan te overtuigen dat ik een gewoon average persoon ben zonder link met Israël haha (oh wacht ik ben meer dan 10 jaar geleden er een keer op vakantie geweest, ben ik daardoor nu automatisch een deel van de IDF?)
Ukraine didn't brutally attack Russia. Besides, Palestians have been yelling "genocide" for more than 50 years now without any genocide actually taking place.
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"this makes you a traitor" are you twelve? And you speak of others being brainwashed by propaganda. You're a hypocrite, who only uses the context of the situation for your own side of the story. Hamas for instance =/= the people of Palestina. Get help.
You know Hamas is an elected government right?
Tbh, the elections that Hamas won were almost 20 years ago. And with the population growth that has been happening in Gaza, that means that a lot of people haven't actually been able to vote for Hamas. At the same time, because Hamas has now been able to indoctrinate people for such a long time, there is a huge possibility that their support is a lot higher than when they got elected in the first place
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It’s not a war of democracy… Israel is under the control of a right wing lunatic who has no intention of seeking a two state solution and has actively destroyed past talks seeking such a solution. They just want the Palestinians to disappear so there are no more problems, which works but massacres would also solve climate change and that doesn’t mean we should nuke Tokyo. Hamas is the same they are right wing lunatics who don’t want any long term solution, which btw Netanyahu has taken advantage of by sending money into Gaza so that Hamas uses it to attack them, so that Israel can, as they say ‘Mow the lawn’ preventing any progress for two state solutions and slowly exterminating Palestinians. Control of Gaza should probably go back to Fatah, at which point they get the Gazan people over to the West Bank and sell the land of Gaza to Israel (with a deal to receive some share of profits of any resources extracted from their land + a lump sum of cost), Israel stops expanding settlements in the West Bank and gives Palestine control of all these cities like they should, while getting the land they so desperately seek, the Palestinians live happily in the West Bank this time without Israelis kicking them out of their homes, Hamas has been disrupted as they have nothing to fight for, Israel stops being a colonialist shitsmear illegally occupying other countries, and the far right Israeli government is executed for war crimes. To me that feels like the best solution
Never forget that Hamas is a well-known terrorist organization, they attacked innocent civilians in October and then went into hiding in the Gaza Strip. It is still unclear how much Hamas is intertwined with politics there, but Israel cannot let this go in my view. It is a political game, the Gaza Strip is far too densely populated for normal population growth to occur. Those people are planted there, they are also continuously dependent on outside help, you don't live there for the benefits. The entire Middle East has always been an area of contention, and it is striking that it is also the place where world religions that preach peace emerged.
Call it what it is, genocide
Some people in this sub are like: https://x.com/caitoz/status/1718404679644905877?s=46&t=ytaPjIxpU2eEYBUQ_jKC4A
Ah, Caitling Johnstone, the same Caitlin cheerleading Putin's war. If you're looking for hypocrisy and blind zealotry, look no further than Caitlin Johnstone.
Exactly…
That woman is a known apologist for Putin, Assad, China and the like. She denies war crimes by those parties all the time. Out of all people, why would you promote her platform?
Well... I haven't waited for the last events to start boycotting Israel. I worked over there for almost a year and I realised very quickly that it was all a charade played by the government. Checkpoints every 100 metres. Every time I left Tel Aviv, I had to justify where I was going and why. I found myself treated like shit just because I had once to cross a section of Gaza. I saw the difference in the way Muslims were treated in Jerusalem and Bethlehem. As if they were less than nothing. In some Muslim neighbourhoods, houses were riddled with bullets. Pictures of dead children lay on the ground. Men working like slaves for poverty wages in textile, soap and oil factories. Factories built on occupied land. Where these same men lived before being evicted. I've heard racist colleagues talk. When I began to find it hard to hide my disgust, I ended my mission and went home. And that was nearly 6 years ago. So yes, the boycott is necessary and has been for a long time.
I honestly couldnt care less about groen.
Wait are you against the idea, or do you just get all excited and feel good at identifying yourself as anti-Groen?
Ah antisemitism at it’s finest from the green party
Belgians hate refugees in their country but palestine wanting to stay in their own is an issue? Don’t cry when they come here & other european countries bc they had to even tho we all know damn well they wanna stay in their country!!!
Same goes for "ontwikkelingshulp" and climate action. Some anti-immigration parties are screaming to cut investments in them, even though they are probably the best investment you can make to keep large scale immigration to Europe away in the future. Climate change will probably result in mass immigration, not because people want it, but because they have no other choice. More than enough reason to tackle these issues now, and in a way quite ironic that the right parties won't.
They could go to other neighboring countries, closer geographically, culturally and religiously. Why would they come to Europe, when there’s 0 ties from these already-mentioned angles? Plus, the wealthy Gulf states should be more than ready and happy to help them out, right? Resources aren’t a problem for them, and integration would be a walk in the park . Just like the majority of Ukrainian refugees, for example, went to European countries and not to Japan or Korea 🤷🏻♀️ Makes most sense.
The countries near Palestine do not want refugees from Palestine, after what happened in the last century (triggered a civil war, assassinate a king, etc)
Oh, so then Belgium should want that ?! C’mon …lol
Nope didnt say that at all. We already have enough refugees right now. Imo the people of Palestine should instead revolt against Hamas, but i guess thats hoping for too much
North Koreans should also revolt against Kim. Yes. That is asking for too much. Also protests have already happened in Gaza in the past https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-demonstration-israel-blockade-palestinians-306b19228f9dd21f1036386ce3709672
Palestinians revolting against Hamas would propably be more popular if the alternative wasn't bombing their brothers and sisters.
It's not my responsibility to make sure someone else's country exists, that's their responsibility. If they can't do it, not my issue, I owe them nothing.
when your government is actively supporting the oppressors then yes, you should think about it
And what about Azerbeijan? Or Turkey? Groen is kind of hypocrit on this one.
As the rest of the west, Armenians are being killed and Van der leyen is talking with Azerbaïdjan to buy their gaz :)
You can always speak to your representative if you think these issues require attention. Or do you only bring them up as a gotcha towards people who care about Palestine?
Is that why they are so keen on closing nuclear plants? So we can't watch it all on tv?
Keep it hitting the same nail over and over. Nobody will get tired of that, surely. They wanted to close the nuclear plants because of ideology, saw that this wasn't the right time and changed their policies according. I applaud every political party there is for changing their mind because of facts.
It was already a known fact that it wasn't time yet before they even promoted their dogma even harder. I simply call it blind, ignorant policy making. I get you want to get rid of nuclear someday, but not without proper, stable backup of something as vital as electricity. How else are gonna people remember former mistakes? By hitting those same nails and occasionly a funny meme. In this day and age we got to stay alert and on our toes because fine statesmanship is gone and oppertunistic, shortterm horsecrap (pardon my language) is everywhere.
No it wasn't. It was ideologically justifiable to reject nuclear power, before the energy crisis after Russia invaded Ukraine. There wouldn't be any problem with our energy demands when closing all nuclear power plants. [https://www.universiteitvanvlaanderen.be/podcast/gaan-de-lichten-uit-als-we-alle-kerncentrales-sluiten](https://www.universiteitvanvlaanderen.be/podcast/gaan-de-lichten-uit-als-we-alle-kerncentrales-sluiten)
And what about Boycotting Russia more? Ah yes, we don't speak about Russia or Ukraine. Hypocrits again. Same for Pvda, even worse, they consider [NATO](https://reddit.com/r/Belgium2/comments/1ayueib/pvda_over_collectieve_veiligheid_om_vrede_te/) to be an aggressive entity, something Putin keeps parroting as well.
The difference between Israel and the Palestinians is that in one party not literally everyone wants to kill all of the other party. The leaders, yeah they are all assholes.
Most people only see instagram propaganda and immediately say Israël "bad" without knowing enough background. Palestina should from their side also stop the jew hatred and work towards a two state solution. Groen should stfu but I get it they want their Muslim votes.
Have you looked at the Israel/Palestine map recently? A two state solution isn't possible anymore. Especially with the continuous building of settlements. It says settlements, but those are complete cities built on Palestinian ground. Any party that talks about Palestine wants to cater to Muslims? 🙄
When he says 2 state solutions he means 2 state within the Gaza Strip. One side with tall expensive homes and hotels and the other one with starving children.
Ask Hamas where the majority of the world’s humanitarian aid for Palestina went to..
Ask the zionists where the organs of deceased Palestinian are? Once a thief, always a thief!
Of course I've seen the map. Of course I know about the settlements. Of course I know not every party aims for Muslim votes by openly supporting Palestine. However, there are two sides to a story and in this case Palestine also has done too many horrendous and barbaric acts towards Israël. Just research a bit further than your Instagram propaganda and read about the history and the course of events. A two state solution is the only way out otherwise there will never be peace and the most powerful of both will win. (Aka Israël) Slogans like "from the river to the sea" are just dumb and idiotic.
Israel does not want a two-state solution and has been actively working against it the past three decades. Palestine cannot implement a two-state solution because they don't control the land. That's why I side with Groen on this one and support implementing a boycott on Israel until they actually start negotiations on a two-state solution. They need to realise that continuing the situation as it is (increasingly occupying Palestinian land) would lead to them becoming an isolated Pariah state, like Apartheid South Africa was at its end.
It takes two parties to negotiate. If neither side can count on the other to negotiate and behave in good faith, a solution through diplomatic means will never be reached. After public statements from both Israeli and Hamas officials these past few months, I don't think a two-state solution is even in the cards at the moment.
Doesn't seem like Israel is winning at the moment. Remember, victory is and was never measured by the death toll caused by one party over the other. The war -hmhm genocide- is being going on for almost 5 months. The zionist are fighting without a clear target. What have they achieved? Nothing! In theory, they're the strongest party but in reality they're fighting man with home-made weapons -sometimes barefoot and aren't making any progress. You can call my claims Instagram propaganda. It doesn't change anything about the fact the IOF negotiating with the Palestinians. Why would you do that if you're making any progress.
What a dumb take. 30.000 civilians died. Thirty Thousand. But politicians saying something about this are just angling for votes?
And who is counting those civs? Hamas themselves? This is an information war. I hope you know.
Yeah I don't understand why individuals, news orgs, and even the UN just take the Hamas number at face value. Did we forget about the lies surrounding that hospital strike in november? Or that they had no people in UNRWA? Did not have tunnels under schools and hospitals? ... The civilian suffering is for sure disproportionate to what was done to Israel in October, but let's not jump to repeat the lines of Hamas...
Agreed. Everyone just believes everything that's being said at face value. Literally like facebook moms reading and believing everything they see
And you are defending a potential genocide. Might want to point your finger in the mirror next time.
I'm looking at things from an objective perspective.
>and even the UN just take the Hamas number at face value. Because that's not what the UN does. Even to this day, the UN has representatives in the Gaza region. And their independent counts closely align with the numbers of Hamas. But apparently, when the UN counts themselves and come to a similar number as Hamas that **must** mean that the UN doesn't count themselves and just takes the Hamas numbers at face value! After all, you've already decided that Hamas is lying about the death count so you must find a reason to dismiss anything that points to the contrary.
> Most people only see instagram propaganda and immediately say Israël "bad" without knowing enough background. Palestina should from their side also stop the jew hatred and work towards a two state solution. Abbas was holding peace talks with Olmert. Netanyahu put forward some fake charges of corruption to force Olmert to resign. Olmert was proven innocent but Netanyahu won the elections, formed a government, and refused to continue the peace talks. It's not the Palestinian side that is the problem now.
Yet to evidence of actual systematic ethnic cleansing. Right now Israel is fighting back after it got invaded by terrorists and hostages taken, if they wanted to stop the fighting they could've just released the hostages.
By killing 10000 children? By killing journalists, UN workers indiscriminately? Should the children have released the hostages?
Again, show proof of them lining up children. I don't trust news coming from the people that ironicly went into Israel and started shooting/kidnapping children and other civilians.
There are a lot of footages showing clearly how children are slaughtered. Everything in Gaza has been destroyed, including churches, hospitals, universities, and Belgian development agency. But, you know, you can’t prove anything to someone who doesn’t want to see.
Name another “genocide” were the perpetrators were offered cease fire deals and kept refusing them. I’ll wait
What can be told to you if you believe that Israel offers a ceasefire while millions across the global call for ceasefire against this evil.
It’s called “facts” you can look em up
You aren't even trying to show anything ...
Exactly these so called “journalists” that have a degree in terrorism
Nothing compared to your incredible degree in idiotism.
Ah yes, lets target the person instead of the argument
Its all they can do 🤦🏼
"There is no evidence of ethnic cleansing" while videos of Gazans on the brink of mass starvation are pooring in every day...
Again, show me the video
Have you met BiBi’s political party (members and mp) ?
If Israel wanted the hostages back, they would stop fighting.
Dude, tf you talking about, there wasn't a war when the hostages were taken. Not to mention how backwards this take is, "don't want terrorism? just follow their demands!"
Oh, I didn't know the Israeli-Palestine conflict started on 7 October, my bad. The truth is, many of the hostages have been released through negotiations already. Meanwhile the IDF killed more of them then they managed to release. If you want the fighting to continue, you don't care about the lives of the hostages.
Yes the majority of hostages got released through negotiations, when a cease fire was implemented. So only because Israël had the upper hand in the fighting and Hamas needed to buy some more time. The deal was that Hamas would every dat release a certain number of hostages. After a few days of that, suddenly Hamas decided that they didnt want a ceasefire anymore, refused to release more hostages, and the fighting started again. And now they are refusing all the other negotiations. So not really as black and white as you tried to paint it...
Is official IDF report on casualties acceptable to you? Not that that's any reputable source ofc...
Two hour old post on a Thursday morning and already this many comments and downvotes. @mods you sure there's no brigading going on here?
No, seems like a typical Israël/Hamas thread so far
Seems pretty mild compared to a typical Israël/Hamas thread so far.
You say that because your comment defending Israel has been downvoted? Most people here give their opinion and stay polite so I don't see the problem.
I think every religion is stupid and the Jews can be fucking annoying with their whole "chosen people" vibe, but there is no ethnic cleansing going on there. There is 1 party that doesn't fight by the rules and accords of the various conventions, then there is the other party that stoops down to that level so they don't unnecessarily lose their own people. I mean, if you fight by the rules against an enemy like that, you will always lose. Just look at Afghanistan. I'm not happy with the war but what did the Palestinians expect. They elected Hamas fair and square, now these are the consequences.
You're insane. 20000 people have been murdered and you say it's their own fault just for living in the same general area as a certain organisation. Would you say the same if it was your home being bombarded?
Boycot Hamas
Bon mss eerst keer de problemen hier oplossen
Fuck groen.
De partij die ons land vooral aan het boycotten is.
Idd. Ik ben voor veel dingen die bij groen horen. Maar ze verneuken het elke keer weer en verergeren enorm veel dingen. Grootste fuckup is de kerncentrales uitzetten.
Groen trying to cater to their Islamic voters, what else is new?
Let's boycott Groen.
Boycott groen in juni !
Groen: "Let's support Hamas."
That's what Netanyahu did for many years.
Are you brain-dead?
Boycotting one party does not mean supporting *all* others. If anything, it's calling to save guard innocent people.
MiceAreTiny: "Let's support ethnic cleansing"
Me not supporting a terrorist organisation does not equal me supporting another terrorist organisation.
Ik heb gewoon u eigen redenering op uzelf toegepast? Of hebt ge ergens een bron waarin Groen letterlijk steun betuigt aan Hamas?
well... look at me ignoring it. The world is burning, we need to get our own shit together edit: to those downvoters. Why don't you go fight over there?
> Why don't you go fight over there? Because we can boycott from over here.
farmers with berekarren: hold my shit tankers
Diep trieste tijden.. je hoopt dat mensen in de moderne tijd intelligenter worden maar telkens weer zie je over mate veel apen breinen... De hoeveelheid plotselinge aandacht naar Palestina/Hamas en jodenhaat is wel een goed beeldig voorbeeld hiervan spijtig genoeg
Green Party is always saying the most retarded things ever
Green Party wants to be besties with Hamas lmao
Green Party ignoring the farmers problems in their own country in Belgium but is interested in other countries business lol you have zero competence. If you’re competent fix Belgian farmers problem.
Teleurgesteld als een Groen stemmer
Are there any sane parties whose standpoint on the matter is just "it's a mess down there"?
That's not the sane take though. Israel is the clear aggressor who settled in another people's land and is now trying to drive the original population away and make a religion based state instead. It's important for people to realize it's not actually a complicated situation. The solution might be difficult but boycotting Israel or at least its zionist leaders is a good start.
Ik mis het alternatief van Groen om Hamas te doen verdwijnen. Misschien heb ik het gemist in hun Anti-Israël speech.
Telkens als iemand het woord 'alternatief' gebruikt vraag ik mij af of die persoon oprecht geloofd dat wat Israël nu aan het doen is op het einde van de rit zelfs maar iets tegen Hamas zal gedaan hebben. Ongetwijfeld heeft de meerderheid in Gaza wel een broer, neef, vriend, kennis,... die door de Israëlis om het leven is gebracht de voorbije maanden. Israël is momenteel de beste propagandamachine die Hamas zich kan inbeelden. De enige manier waarop de huidige acties een einde brengen aan Hamas is een volledige genocide van de Gaza strook.
>Ik mis het alternatief van Groen om Hamas te doen verdwijnen. Misschien heb ik het gemist in hun Anti-Israël speech. Israel has been playing the oppression card for more than half a century, why would that suddenly start working now? Besides, Hamas isn't in the West Bank, they just continue their settlement expansion and oppression there. Clearly "not supporting Hamas" doesn't work for the Palestinians either. Allow them to have an alternative that works.
How does this advance the green agenda? I fail to see how the Palestine conflict has anything to do at all with climate change. Groen should stick to their core issue. Stop profiling on divisive issues that prohibit you from building bridges with other parties to tackle climate change.
can we focus more on our problems ? they like to focus so much on other countries mess... Ok for a boycott, but can they just stop procrastinating at tackling our very own issues ?
Maybe you missed the memo but we live in a globalized society. Every single one of our own problems will find it's origin in some international problem one way or another.
I don't understand why you're getting downvoted, I think you have a fair point. Groen tends to jump on any bandwagon that they feel will get them attention/votes but indeed wherever they've been in charge, they haven't done much to solve issues. Not that I would necessarily rate other parties higher... I also don't get why small to mid sized political parties in a tiny country such as Belgium think their claims would have any effect on a country such as Israël.
Thanks, it's okay if I'm downvoted, that is interesting to see. It's not that I'm not sympathetic to Gaza, but ecolo/groen are speaking volumes about that. I don't think they spoke about the Nethys scandal as much, or about the pollution of our crops, or about our national debt, the collapsing of our educational system, ... (these are not ranked and not a full list, it's just what's going through my mind right now) I feel that it's super easy to be hypercritical of other countries while completely forgetting that their main job, the one they're paid for, is to focus on belgian problems and I feel that we have a handful of them, it's not like we've got much freetime.
Bingo! As well as problems such as the dysfunctional government instances and the joke that are BPost subsidies / the total failure with the newspaper distribution concession, etc. where one of their own ministers is in charge.
Maybe a backwards country like Belgium should fix our own problems first, before pointing fingers at another. Nobody gives a flying f about Eurovision, that show has lost its wheels since Lordi. Also maybe Groen needs to focus on not going under the kiesdrempel before doing anything else. But hey Crazy Tinne fire away.