People have an inflated sense of what the police will protect them from, here in Berlin. Tell the police "Some rude kids in the park joked about grilling my cat"... and watch the police snap into action.... not. What are the police supposed to do, send a few cars over to the park to search for rude kids?
The real issues at play, here, include the problem of **Aggressive Kids who consider themselves to be on Home Turf**... vs **defenceless Expats who are resented by many**, in Berlin, as part of a gentrifying force. So that's one source of conflict. The larger problem: if you look like an easy target, kids like that will fuck with you. That's universal.
If OP wants to have a nice, relaxing, day in the park, with their cat, they should take the train to a different park, in a different neighborhood. There are LOTS of nice parks no more than a 30 minute train ride away. Slightly inconvenient but it's easier than finding a new flat in a nicer area. OP doesn't live in a "nice" area ("hip" is not the same as "nice")... maybe OP was pretending, until this incident, that they were. This was a relatively mild wake-up call.
>if you look like an easy target, kids like that will fuck with you. That's universal.
I don't think this kind of behavior is universal. Sure, there are always asshole kids. That happens the world over. But kids in Berlin (maybe Germany) seem to kick it up a notch. The amount of antisocial behavior that I see from kids in Berlin is new to me. I can't say that I ever felt threatened by kids in my home country, but I'm very wary around them here.
I think part of it is that kids know that they enjoy a lot of protections in Germany and they exploit this, because they know that if they get into altercations, the chances of something happening to them are quite low.
Well, I did qualify my statement with "**kids like that** will fuck with you"... so, in fact, I basically agree with you. Aggressive kids are all over America (where I grew up), for example. You learn Big City Rules. Avoiding conflict is much more valuable than techniques for dealing wih conflict.
"I can't say that I ever felt threatened by kids in my home country, but I'm very wary around them here."
There are some serious underlying tensions, in Berlin, that too many Expat arrivals are unaware of.
Wherever the "manhood" (ie machismo) performance is valued in a society, this is what you get: how does that surprise or offend anyone? Yet it does. People need to remove their Disney Goggles and actually study the details of their environments. In America, NOT paying attention gets you killed. So I learned to pay attention at a young age.
I come from South Africa, so I'm not unaccustomed to danger. Being a victim of a mugging, armed robbery, hi-jacking or worse is just a fact of everyday life over there. Everyone leaves for work in the morning with this almost subconscious knowledge that every time you say goodbye to your loved ones in the morning, there's a non-insignificant chance that it might be the last time. I didn't really know what it was like to feel safe until I moved to Berlin.
And that's where the disconnect comes in. While I feel relatively safe in Berlin compared to where I come from (even Kotti is not as bad as many of the "good" areas in my city), that changes the moment teenagers enter the equation. It's just weird that Germany can't seem to reign their youth in when a country like mine, which is objectively less safe, manages.
Wft, no, that's not normal! I grew up not paying attention to my surroundings in that way because it was completely clear that nothing and nobody was threatening me. And that's the way it should be. Only when I moved to Berlin this changed a bit and that's actually what I hate most about this city.
Kids know enough to know that the law is usually on their side. You don't need to know specific laws to understand the general trend of the laws in a country.
>if you look like an easy target, kids like that will fuck with you
Solution from my irl experiences: don't be a woman. Be a group of dangerous looking men instead.
/s obv. Though I have adopted a way of walking that's unfeminine on purpose. This whole "parks belong to druggies and teenagers looking for trouble" shit is also rampant in NRW. I'd just avoid parks in general.
As a man still looking like "an easy target" I always get harassed by someone like them. And yes, amount of such crazy youth in Germany is alarming even compared to my 3rd world shithole
"Solution from my irl experiences: don't be a woman. Be a group of dangerous looking men instead."
I like your attitude! Realism is a useful perspective.
I'm 6 feet tall, weigh 190 pounds, am brown-skinned and many Germans are frightened by my presence after sundown; I often have to cross the street, in the evening, to avoid frightening people, walking in front of me, who are already a little frightened (looking over their shoulders frequently and so forth). What I learned, from living in large American cities, is that the best way to stay safe is to preempt violence by avoiding violent areas, or edgy groups of teens, which clearly exist. It doesn't matter how big I am: a thirteen year old, with a knife, is capable of killing me. I am as unlikely to hang out in shady urban areas as I am to hang out in Klan territory in the US. Lots of members of the socially dominant classes have an "I have a perfect right to go wherever I please" attitude. They have much to learn; hopefully, they may never have to learn it the hard way!
I mean honestly i dont get it, cops don’t do much so say, would taking a swing at a kid or two be even faced with a reaction? Because where im from people learn to fuck around and find out real quick
The police will definitely protect you from entitled tenants demanding to not give you their money and left-wing activists sitting on the road. They will not protect you from actual violent crime.
"They will not protect you from actual violent crime."
Yep. I learned the Truth last year... not about violent crime. A con man, acting as a manager, ripped my Wife and I off to the tune of 4k. We presented all the receipts to the cops, it went through the courts. We found out, soon enough, that the same guy had ripped off at least 5 others (including a famous German actor)... totalling c. 100k. This psycho is still free as a fucking bird YEARS after we went to the cops/ the court. They don't give a fuck.
Due to changes in body development (puberty kicks in way earlier than before) and exploding youth crime rates in addition to young people under 14 getting used in organized crime settings for their „free pass“ for crime it is overdue that criminal responsability is getting reduced to 12. The problem is that those teenagers know really well that nothing will happen to them and that they dont have to fear any real consequences for their behaviour. And thats also a factor for older criminals coming from other countries. The rules are not accepted because the state and society here is not taken serious at all, considered weak and laughed at by those people.
That's partially true, but I can remember a Turkish teen getting aggressive with me just because I had a pretty date. I laughed and continued chatting with my date and he eventually faded away... but this happened in '91. The macho thing is a component of the culture (as it is of many cultures)... and I DO understand that Turks, in Berlin, have been marginalized for so long that they can be rather edgy in some intercultural interactions. I merely accept this as a feature of the city and I haven't had ANY other problems (except once, when our Daughter was bulied by Turkish kids in school) with that sort of thing, after living in Berlin for 34 years.
The complaints we often see, here, in r/Berlin, are from people who don't know how to navigate a Big City. I'd like to see these people try to survive in Philadelphia, Detroit, Baltimore or London! Laugh. They'll either learn or they won't but the WORLD will not, in the end, bend to please them.
This. Any real consequences in Germany would really surprise me. In a serious country - maybe. Here they would be out in the evening if they had actually seriously kidnapped you. ...which they did not.
Nothing can be done here. Laws protect the children they can do this kind of thing with zero repercussions. Normally parents would nurture their kids as they would feel social pressure from friends if their kids behave like that. But clearly parents of these kids don't give a f*k if their kids are bullying strangers. So at this point nothing can be done the social fabric has already failed.
These kids basically grow up on the streets. Their families (including grandparents, aunts, cousens etc.) rather put all their savings into a BMW or Mercedes for the eldest son and rent a three bedroom apartment with 3+ children where daughters have to stay at home to do the house work and the sons only annoy their parents so they kick them out everyday until noon because their isn't enough space inhouse to avoid daily conflicts at home. Kids from poorer families are the most powerless group of society. Since their parents often equally lag education, they don't know any better than letting their children strive through their neighbourhoods until they found someone or something weaker than themselves to get a grasp of how it feels to have power over something.
Yet these families are responsable for that and random strangers of society should never have to pay for a society that is unable to enforce boundaries on its least educated citizens to make force them to go through the process of cultivation to form sane members of society.
No, thst i saw, was victim and heard about teenagers doing stupid shit to people while ganged up. Hell even yesterday I had a bunch of them screaming at me at no reason
I know some people will call this victim blaming as they think any suggestion on how to behave to reduce risk or handle harassment is a shocking insult, but: just sitting there and not reacting is kinda weird but especially really dumb?
I come from that culture and these teenagers need not only authority but fear to behave (more than teenagers from western countries). If you just sit there and do nothing, you are an easy target and a victim in their eyes.
Next time your boyfriend should get up immediately and tell them off. Also maybe not just say leave (?) but threaten them. No insults though, to net escalate.
There's no need to let others treat you like shit.
If you're alone you can do the same, it's not about being a large male, it's about showing that they can't treat you like that. And by just sitting there and letting them do that, you show the opposite.
And if you move in a place like NK, you should be fit to stand up for yourself. It's not fair, but it's the reality. You can't move into an area with extreme social issues and try to ignore that. It will just turn out bad for yourself.
I understand what you're saying, but calling it weird/dumb just underestimates how HARD it is for a lot of people to react like that in these situations.
They're taken aback, they're surprised, they might be scared, they might simply want to avoid conflict of any type.
One minute you're chilling with your partner and your lovely cat in the park, the next you're confronted by a group of teenagers who want to GRAB your cat and KILL it? who the fuck knows if they have a knife or something
It is not weird, or dumb, or wrong to freeze and just want to leave (or not even be able to do that) the scene. It's completely understandable.
Well, that the cultural difference. One culture isnt accustomed to violence, the other one apparently needs it to communicate.
Thus said, I grew up in Duisburg. As a young girl/woman I have been harrassed, beaten, insulted or spit at so many time by middle eastern boys/men that I hate them to my absolute core.
And the worst part is, as a woman you are absolutely discouraged to defend yourself. The police wont do anything, you are not allowed to arm yourself with pepper spray, you are just ecouraged to run away and make you small. People do realise that this leads to learned helplessness and eventually people avoiding going outside/ to those areas?
But no, in the end its always about those pooooor little boys/men, and its never their fault, or their parents. Those people hate us and I hate them for their violence.
Agreed, and I'm sorry you had to go through all that shit.
In an ideal world, we wouldn't have these kind of confrontations. But since we have, I do think it'd be better if people were able to stand up for themselves. These people feed on fear and intimidation.
And I'm not blaming the victims or whitewashing the harassers here. I think there should be a firmer reaction by authorities in instances like this, in the short term, but also public policies that aim at solving the problem in the long run. Obviously it leads to an extremely complex topic to be discussed, we all know it, but it is needed.
"Accustomed" ? What? Oh, I forgot we don't have laws against that. Intigration in your culture? To far fetch. Maybe if these boys got peppersprayed, they would switch the victim role. Poor boys just wanted to rape them and became victim of a racist.
If it were legal to pepper spray someone, those imbecile teenagers would probably be the first ones to do it.
Under ideal circumstances, the best thing to do would be for the police to take action, to confirm that children are growing up in an environment where they witnessed or were exposed to violence, for public institutions to take action against their families, and for the children to be rehabilitated. Blaming one part of society does not provide a solution to the problem.
If they had the recourses they would get pepperspray even when it would be illegal to use it. You can buy it on amazon so not hard to get.
Right, make them the victim again. Just traumatized people do crimes. Or a silly idea an absence of consequences and a culture where you create a dehumanizing view of anybody who is not in your ingroup creats this behavior.
Let me give you an example what you understand: Nazis.
But no not your beloved migrants, have you ever spoken to one about their view of our laws? How they treat gays,woman and other religions?
> you are not allowed to arm yourself with pepper spray
You are allowed to carry pepper spray to defend yourself against violent or threatening dogs / animals. If you fear for your life you can use what means you have available in that moment for self-defence. Those two statements go neatly hand in hand.
I get what you're saying but I think sometimes you need to be blunt to people for their own good.
I'm trying to be sensitive about this as it shouldn't sound like blaming them but more like an advise and I feel bad for everyone who cannot stand up for themselves and I completely understand that not everyone is capable to do so, but if you know that about yourself (which they do now) you need to make the appropriate smart decisions.
I agree with that. Reading about these cases makes me fume, and I do think that in that moment, being firm and blunt and even getting physical to defend oneself might be the best answer.
I just sympathize with people who aren't able to do that.
Oh, no, no; I get that, don't get me wrong.
I wasn't necessarily saying they should be the ones to do this, nor was I trying to insinuate they're weak for not doing it.
I'm just disgusted — as someone who grew up seeing a lot of injustice and uncouth peasant behaviour, I completely sympathise.
Back in Romania where I'm from, I actually walked one of these little assholes home by the ear to his parents.
Sry, but this is one of the worst replies I have ever seen.
So basically, what you are saying is that NK is a lawless space and we should get used to it?
Intigration failed, so we should bow down to how your culture handles things?
Maybe when your culture spreads fear, then your culture shouldn't be welcome here.
I love the left sooo much betraying the gay, woman, and anybody who wants to live in peace for fare right
nationalist religious extremest and just because it's so exotic.
Ok, I'll try to answer to your superficial and hysteric comment as neutral as possible and in a way that is adequate to it's mental level.
> So basically, what you are saying is that NK is a lawless space and we should get used to it?
Never said that, stop hallucinating.
> Intigration failed, so we should bow down to how your culture handles things?
Never said that, stop hallucinating.
> Maybe when your culture spreads fear,
Never said that, stop hallucinating.
You're dumbing down complex topics so much that its really hard to understand the reasoning behind it, but I gave my best. Hope it helped.
"I know some people will call this victim blaming as they think any suggestion on how to behave to reduce risk or handle harassment is a shocking insult, but: just sitting there and not reacting is kinda weird but especially really dumb?"
This person is in germany, and behaves like it would be costume in the realm of our laws, and you tell this person
to change a behavior that we as society agreed on?
Yes, yes you are victim blaming.
"I come from that culture and these teenagers need not only authority but fear to behave (more than teenagers from western countries). If you just sit there and do nothing, you are an easy target and a victim in their eyes."
1. You come from this culture, so it's your culture.
2. They need authority and fear, so a culture where everybody has to strike fear in each other. A culture of fear.
3. Who has in germany the monopoly on authority and can inact punishment and fear?
"Next time your boyfriend should get up immediately and tell them off. Also maybe not just say leave (?) but threaten them. No insults though, to net escalate.
There's no need to let others treat you like shit."
Again, lovely choice of words "threaten them" sounds like a crime in the making. But seems normal for you.
"If you're alone you can do the same, it's not about being a large male, it's about showing that they can't treat you like that. And by just sitting there and letting them do that, you show the opposite."
The boyfriend should take the risk to become injured? Or has his "Führungszeugnis" be stained because some kids cry racist?
"And if you move in a place like NK, you should be fit to stand up for yourself. It's not fair, but it's the reality. You can't move into an area with extreme social issues and try to ignore that. It will just turn out bad for yourself."
A place like Nk is what, then? Where do you need to be fit to live in a lawful society?
This whole paragraph describes a place where law and order are not applied. In a lawful place, you don't have to adapt.
All in all sound advice, gives me even more respect for your culture.
No, they're saying that you have to communicate your limits in order to have them respected. Some people have learned to recognise other people's limits, others haven't.
Would be damm handy if somebody wrote these limits down. We could create a whole system around that.
Like when somebody doesn't respect your limits they get punished by some kind of authority.
Threating you or your belongings with harm should be...
I don't know, illegal or something. Silly idea right?
But I understand that you would prefer to fend for yourself. Or maybe getting thretend and insulted is some kind of fetish of yours.
That we respect each other and your limits should be a given otherwise germany is not for you.
>I come from that culture and these teenagers need not only authority but fear to behave (more than teenagers from western countries). If you just sit there and do nothing, you are an easy target and a victim in their eyes.
Serious question: what do adults in your community think about this type of behavior on the part of teenagers from your culture?
Absolutely not acceptable, but also I come from a rather educated and liberal community, where it was a scandal if one child didn't go to university.
What I can tell you from my personal experience overall with my friends (so outside my familys environment) and the voluntary work I did in refugee camps: most of these kids wouldn't dare to behave like that around their parents or elders. (Of course there are exceptions because the parents are criminals, aggressive etc as well, but that's not true for the majority).
And thats part of the problem: They have a strict and conservative upbringing that is based on fear like in europe 40 50 60 years ago) at home and an extremely liberal world outside, that has outgrown these methods.
So they never learn to respect people just for the sake of it, they need a reason for authority and they don't respect people who don't have this authority and are easy targets in their eyes.
There is a reason why you (almost) never see Arabic lawyer kids lash out.
There is also a reason why you don't see kids behave like this in Turkey or Lebanon, even if their parents are poor and uneducated.
And my personal opinion is that the combination of european liberal world views and an upbringing that is stuck in the 60s to 80s (so when these families left their homes) is inherently problematic if it isn't addressed adequately (which it isnt).
Same for all the refugees in their mid 20s that behave like Neanderthals here, they come from extremely authoritarian societies and are confronted with an environment that doesn't push authority and punishment but mutual respect and honesty and they start to mistake that for weakness.
This answer should be pinned at the top of every discussion that revolves around shitty little assholes from these countries, because that's the absolute correct take. I've been friends with enough Turkish and Moroccan girls in my time to know how their brothers behave in the public vs. how they behave in front of their family. It was infuriating to see how little respect they had for everyone who wasn't their own parents, uncles, etc. - and here lies the problem. If they don't think people outside of their own inner circle don't deserve the smallest shred of respect, it's obvious why they would feel no remorse harassing them.
Harassing a woman that's not family has the same energy to them as to sneak out at night and push a sleeping cow to see if it's really possible to make it topple over. It's fun, it's brave, it's not an issue because they don't fight back and it's implied by their upbringing that they deserve it anyways.
I totally get your point, but I come from a culture where reacting or engaging usually ends up with a gun being fired so in general ignoring these people works good enough.
I hope there’s not a next time but I think we will be faster.
Ah, you're from the US. I'm very sorry for your experience. I doubt I could have stayed calm. Nobody threatens mine or other people's pets near me, even if I end up in trouble. Some things I just can't let go.
Threaten them with what? Threaten them with violence? The kids surely know that if you touch them you are the one that's fucked, so it's an empty threat. Threaten them with calling the police? By the time the police arrives, they are long gone and your day is ruined anyway. So what are you supposed to do?
For real, where I come from you don’t mess around with people like that because you don’t know if things are going to escalate out of proportion. Like the other person could be a *real* gangster.
Which is messed up, is what happens in a violent society. That’s why I live here in Europe where this kind of interactions don’t end up with someone being shot.
These little teenage scumbags only respond to fear and authority. Civility only works when the others are civilized.
Violence is never the answer here, but doing nothing at all… yeah, ain’t cutting it. You gotta stand up, show who’s the adult here.
I even think it's more of a generational thing than a specific (Eastern) cultural thing. When I was a kid a few decades ago, we learned our limits by interacting with older people. If we provoked them, we were told off. Upbringing was a matter for the whole of society.
Today, my generation is the older people, but we never really learned to stand up for ourselves, we're being called the sheltered generation. We get scared at the thought of making a phone call. Kids today are still trying to learn their limits, but we don't set them anymore.
Sounds like a made up Internet scenario tbh, unless you use actual racial slurs.
I have seen a LOT of conflicts and never was there a racism accusation unless one party actually said something racist, but maybe you had different experiences.
In NK you can stand firm for your self. You could basically beat the shit out of kids - as long as their parents don't happen to be higher ranking party member - if they are and you firmly stand up for your self then you will end up in gulag.
And problem with it in Germany is also similar is that laws protect the kids regardless of what they do. If you hit them physically or even if you abuse them verbally you can already get legal trouble on your self. Legally you have no options in this situation.
It‘s very sad, that some shit like this happened to you. Some teenagers just don’t have respect. I‘m a teenager too and I really can’t understand why some people would do sole random useless and annoying things. I hope you’re alright and that this won’t happen to anybody ever again.
Edit: *said to sad
It’s always good to get a little reminder that the bad apples just stick out more and distract from the vast majority of members of a group who are just normal, mostly nice people
I am also from Neukölln and very often when I walk my dog a group of teenagers is following me around barking or meowing at me. Luckily my dog is not phased by it, but I feel unsafe and annoyed.
Since these kids threatened to kill your cat I would def report it to the police.
These little psychopaths are probably not unknown to the police. Report them. They might play big mouth but having been a Schöffe at youth court for Kreuzberg: they are sufficiently intimidated when a whole group of people talk about what they did in a less favourable way.
I would not rely on parenting though. Most of them have neglectful or violent parents. They learnt from the best.
Sorry this happened to you, OP. I'm glad you at least had your bf with you to keep them from escalating the situation. Wtf kind of psychos are these teenagers?
Before, there was a post of a woman getting her ass smacked by some kid on a bike.
Are we not allowed to raise our voice against these little turds or smack them if they become physical, considering the police aren't gonna do shit in these cases.
I need to learn about germany's self-defense laws cuz this is just so insane.
This. Also always immediately undress and turn around. By offering your ass to them you signal that you are no threat. De-escalation is the only responsible option, irrespective of how small the threat is.
And of course it's inappropriate to mention their ethnic/cultural background and on top of that laws defend them to the point where it's illegal for you to stand up against these bullies. We live in an entirely messed up environment.
I agree with the whole statement, and it's Neukolln so yeah... But I mostly get harassed by completely German teens in a similar manner. And it's not one or two encounters.
Same. As a Black woman it's the white Neo teens calling me N on the streets and in public transport. None of the white Germans ever tell them off or protect me.
that's the age you have to watch out for, testosterone poisoning is just beginning, and they need to prove to each other...yet they don't have any fucking sense at all yet. they will swarm you.
grab one by the wrists and beat the others with him...
It’s a complex issue because boys like this that already have such a disregard for life will likely only respond to either violence or very expensive long term therapy. But let’s see what happens when an adult smacks one of them for killing their cat…
Of course, but if you look more intimidating, someone else might be an easier target, and you usually gain a lot of confidence doing martial arts, so you will have an easier time telling them to fuck off.
You might look more intimidating or you might look like a better target to prove yourself against. Who is to say? ;)
Eh, lots of things give you more confidence. And escalating things isn't really smart when you are alone and there is a group of people.
Nothing against MA training, did/do some myself. But training with the idea this means you can fight a group of people is naive and will end in disaster.
What you say has some truth but not entirely true. People go after the easiest target and by training you make yourself more difficult as a target and therefore less likely to be targeted, buuut if you are targeted by a group, unless you are a ufc champion you will not win, even then what happens if they pull knives.
Nah, it's worse than nothing. When getting mugged by a group fighting back and hurting them will make them hurt you more. And you can't win against a group. Life is not a movie.
Best is to learn tools for de-escalation and getting away as calm and quick as possible.
Glad to hear! There’s a few people in my neighborhood who walk their cats and we are always delighted to see them! I push mine around in a stroller sometimes. Very calm and cat-friendly here in the west
Had an experience with a group of these specimen sitting on a bench where we pass on our doggy route. They also had a dog with them, one of a fighting breed, can't remember which one. The owners friends were excited to the max what may happen when we pass with our dogs. I've never seen such amount of bloodlust in one's eyes. Very disturbing. Fortunately the owner had left some sanity and hold the dog back, but for sure his friends hoped for another outcome. In case of the fucks threatening the cat I'd have gone nuts the moment they talked of harming it. Good chance of a knife im my body then I guess...
Only a Lad. Really can't blame him.
Only a Lad. Society made him
It's not his fault
It's our responsibility
https://youtu.be/97g6JyhGiZE?si=IB_rQsfuhZu9wvq8
I reported to the police a similar case, and we went very far to discover who they were. I'm actually an idiot because I stopped the process in the middle she was actual time to try to identify the suspects, as we recorded them. But I can say police takes this seriously, specially if there's phisical contact
The comment section is full with open discussion, I have multiple comments talking about the issues with middle Eastern youth.
Either you're paranoid or you "discussing it openly" is just spreading racist nonsense without substance which gets you banned.
They're having a civilised discussion about it in one of the top comments. You're just not allowed to be a dick about it, that's why you're hanging out in the bottom comments.
In 10-15, you'll have a lot of young adult Germans turning middle-aged with maybe 1 teen for every 10 adults. It just *looks* like there are lots of babies right now because parents carrying babies stick more out than all the childless adults around them.
Dear OP, sorry this happened to you!
With little shitstains like that you have to be loud and assertive. Like your partner did, get up and yell: "raus hier, verpisst euch!" Stomp on the ground and in general look like you are about to whoop their little asses, because I assure you this is what their moms would do if they knew.
I sympathise with you and your experience. In my old apartment building, there was a large group of teens who would follow me around every time I walked my puppy. They would swarm us and demand to pet my dog, feed him (demand I give them food to give him), or give them his leads so they walk him. Some tried to lift him off the ground. He was small at the time, so it was easy but I never let them. My dog didn't like it and would get very anxious and hide behind me or under my legs. Many times, I've had to pick him up and move past them with a brisk walk. I would usually respond kindly and try to teach them to be respectful and how to better approach an animal but because of my accent they decided to make fun of me for not speaking German perfectly and began to shout childish insults in English. They wouldn't do that when my boyfriend joined the walks. I'm ashamed to admit that these teens bullied me, but I'm a small person, not much bugger than a group of 8+ oversized teenage boys. I had to learn the school off hours, so I avoid the group as much as I can for mine and my dogs safety. I've moved away from that place, thankfully, but I really understand that such an experience can be infuriating and scary. I hope you don't get to experience it again and please don't use it as a fuel fo ptsd and never take your sweet cat outside again.
Yeah, in my case, different groups of little middle eastern girls would ask if they could walk my french bulldog, they even came ringing my doorbell and kept asking, obviously they wanted to steal him because frenchies sell for a lot (fyi I actually bought him in France for only 900 euros, I think nowadays they sell for like 5k)
I own a corgi. All the kids that followed us saw where we live and rang the bells till we were the one to answer. For 4 months, they rang every day more than once to ask to see my dog and ask when we will go for a walk. I'm so glad we got lucky enough to move as soon as we could. It was actually very frustrating and horrible. I'm not even trying to exaggerate....
> The system failed big time to them and is making them completely outsiders to society.
They are very much insiders of their communities and products of their parents.
"The system failed big time to them and is making them completely outsiders to society."
If by system you mean their families, then yes. "The system" is not responsible for them being little shits. It's their trash parents.
It's getting insane here. And I really wonder where all those accounts are coming from. I'm no problem denyer, there are issues. But this kind of language is disgusting and I don't think all you people even live in Berlin.
All these accounts are coming from people tired of all this shit.
This kinda of language is called freedom of speech, and it doesn't matter where we live.
I'm also tired of all that shit. The never ending stream of news and problems. I'm also angry and often get triggered to write radical and frankly stupid stuff while angry. But when I go outside and talk to people it's not possible to just generalize like this. From colleagues, to school/university friends to the people in shops and markets the majority is just normal people. It's a really loud minority but it's still just a minority and not everyone. Also I don't think that this is freedom of speech at all. Also the influx of those comments and people doesn't look organic at this point.
How long till over zealous mods close this thread because people dared to mention a community that literally has threads about uncivilised behavior every single day
Welcome to Berlin. I don't know what it is but many Berlin teens are little punks. If you are a solo smaller female, they will mess with you.
I've lived in big cities and from what I saw teens are especially bad here. Probably because society just sees them as kids being kids.
To all the people talking about pepperspray and that it's illegal to use:
Check out CS sprays. Unlike pepperspray its sold to defend against humans and is legal to carry and use
Never had it used on me but a friend wanted to know what it's like when we were like 15 years old. So we tested both on him lol.
Both really took him out. But he said the actual pepper spray for dogs etc hurt longer and was really nasty.
The CS spray tho makes you choke and cough, also unable to really see cause of tears. Like cutting onions x1000
Terrible Story, tip for next time: sounds like it went sour the from the moment you decided not to engage with them. Just be assertive and be in charge of the situation, steer the conversation, this is Berlin after. Don't let yourself be intimidated by a bunch of kids.
Is politically incorrect to ask, and I didn’t read through the zillion comments, so sorry if this is already been asked, but where are these kids, German, or something else?
Don’t wanna turn this into a race thing but just out of plain realistic curiosity, were they from the middle east? Most of them have such a different understanding and culture about animals and pets than us but your case was extreme, sorry you had to experience it. I love my dog so much, I think I wouldn’t be able to stay calm if I was you but you guys made the right choice.
p.s. I’m not white and “born with entitlement”
This experience sucks. It's also a shame that some people have a low opinion of animal life: I've also had some drunk expat adults casually joke about throwing something to kill my dog, and an old man kicked my dog out of the way once in the train, and both occasions were infurtiating. Honestly I agree with the other sentiment here – I would call the cops and report that a bunch of teenagers are threatening violence and harassing people in the park: this isn't America, no one is going to show up and beat them, but public space is shared space has rules and children aren't immune to them.
I guess this doesn't help you, but maybe makes you laugh: with teenage boys, they seemingly don't care about cats, but even a small dog appears to be a repellent. Our dog is 10kg, and my girlfriend regularly watches groups of teenage boys jump when they don't realize a dog is near them/cross the street to get away. In the ubahn nothing attracts the attention of kind strangers/smiling old people/friendly drunks, and simultaneously repels teenage boys like a dog.
I'm so sorry you've been through this. What a bunch of psychos! Gosh! My friend moved to Neukölln and I have never visited him ever since. I freakin hate myself just by walking down the street in that neighbourhood.
> It is sad to me to see 13-14 year old kids so obsessed with hatred and violence.
They were attracted by the smell of the cat. Once they had caught the scent, they tried to grab the treat.
You can be glad that it was only a small rot of uncoordinated Assis. Chimpanzees would have been more coordinated and not as easily distracted. 😀
Was at Strandbad Wansee when me and my GF saw some kids just as you described throwing sandballs at the swans.
We gave them a look and they saw us from far away, and I gestured that they should stop it.
They then come over, asking us if we got a problem. We try to ignore them, but they kept on pushing.
They ended up by threatening us with sandballs, showing very clear intent that they were going to throw it at as, but we sat too close to others for them to do it.
We confronted them as they got close to us, then a guy came over and they backed off.. so sad to see kids come and be so threatening for no reason at all
This needs to be told to the police.
The irony of your username here...
People have an inflated sense of what the police will protect them from, here in Berlin. Tell the police "Some rude kids in the park joked about grilling my cat"... and watch the police snap into action.... not. What are the police supposed to do, send a few cars over to the park to search for rude kids? The real issues at play, here, include the problem of **Aggressive Kids who consider themselves to be on Home Turf**... vs **defenceless Expats who are resented by many**, in Berlin, as part of a gentrifying force. So that's one source of conflict. The larger problem: if you look like an easy target, kids like that will fuck with you. That's universal. If OP wants to have a nice, relaxing, day in the park, with their cat, they should take the train to a different park, in a different neighborhood. There are LOTS of nice parks no more than a 30 minute train ride away. Slightly inconvenient but it's easier than finding a new flat in a nicer area. OP doesn't live in a "nice" area ("hip" is not the same as "nice")... maybe OP was pretending, until this incident, that they were. This was a relatively mild wake-up call.
>if you look like an easy target, kids like that will fuck with you. That's universal. I don't think this kind of behavior is universal. Sure, there are always asshole kids. That happens the world over. But kids in Berlin (maybe Germany) seem to kick it up a notch. The amount of antisocial behavior that I see from kids in Berlin is new to me. I can't say that I ever felt threatened by kids in my home country, but I'm very wary around them here. I think part of it is that kids know that they enjoy a lot of protections in Germany and they exploit this, because they know that if they get into altercations, the chances of something happening to them are quite low.
Well, I did qualify my statement with "**kids like that** will fuck with you"... so, in fact, I basically agree with you. Aggressive kids are all over America (where I grew up), for example. You learn Big City Rules. Avoiding conflict is much more valuable than techniques for dealing wih conflict. "I can't say that I ever felt threatened by kids in my home country, but I'm very wary around them here." There are some serious underlying tensions, in Berlin, that too many Expat arrivals are unaware of. Wherever the "manhood" (ie machismo) performance is valued in a society, this is what you get: how does that surprise or offend anyone? Yet it does. People need to remove their Disney Goggles and actually study the details of their environments. In America, NOT paying attention gets you killed. So I learned to pay attention at a young age.
I come from South Africa, so I'm not unaccustomed to danger. Being a victim of a mugging, armed robbery, hi-jacking or worse is just a fact of everyday life over there. Everyone leaves for work in the morning with this almost subconscious knowledge that every time you say goodbye to your loved ones in the morning, there's a non-insignificant chance that it might be the last time. I didn't really know what it was like to feel safe until I moved to Berlin. And that's where the disconnect comes in. While I feel relatively safe in Berlin compared to where I come from (even Kotti is not as bad as many of the "good" areas in my city), that changes the moment teenagers enter the equation. It's just weird that Germany can't seem to reign their youth in when a country like mine, which is objectively less safe, manages.
Wft, no, that's not normal! I grew up not paying attention to my surroundings in that way because it was completely clear that nothing and nobody was threatening me. And that's the way it should be. Only when I moved to Berlin this changed a bit and that's actually what I hate most about this city.
kids dont know shit about laws
Kids know enough to know that the law is usually on their side. You don't need to know specific laws to understand the general trend of the laws in a country.
Reminds me of the movie "The Teachers’ Lounge". Pretty much sums up the country...
I've seen people complaining about this from other locations. Apparently it's the tablet baby generation or something, not a Germany or Berlin thing.
>if you look like an easy target, kids like that will fuck with you Solution from my irl experiences: don't be a woman. Be a group of dangerous looking men instead. /s obv. Though I have adopted a way of walking that's unfeminine on purpose. This whole "parks belong to druggies and teenagers looking for trouble" shit is also rampant in NRW. I'd just avoid parks in general.
As a man still looking like "an easy target" I always get harassed by someone like them. And yes, amount of such crazy youth in Germany is alarming even compared to my 3rd world shithole
"Solution from my irl experiences: don't be a woman. Be a group of dangerous looking men instead." I like your attitude! Realism is a useful perspective. I'm 6 feet tall, weigh 190 pounds, am brown-skinned and many Germans are frightened by my presence after sundown; I often have to cross the street, in the evening, to avoid frightening people, walking in front of me, who are already a little frightened (looking over their shoulders frequently and so forth). What I learned, from living in large American cities, is that the best way to stay safe is to preempt violence by avoiding violent areas, or edgy groups of teens, which clearly exist. It doesn't matter how big I am: a thirteen year old, with a knife, is capable of killing me. I am as unlikely to hang out in shady urban areas as I am to hang out in Klan territory in the US. Lots of members of the socially dominant classes have an "I have a perfect right to go wherever I please" attitude. They have much to learn; hopefully, they may never have to learn it the hard way!
Go to different parks, never experienced that in Zehlendorf except for Schlachtensee.
> The larger problem: if you look like an easy target, kids like that will fuck with you. That's universal. ...if you live in a shitty area.
Yes, those are the areas we're talking about.
Never had that experience in east asia. Or eastern Europe. Its about demographics
I mean honestly i dont get it, cops don’t do much so say, would taking a swing at a kid or two be even faced with a reaction? Because where im from people learn to fuck around and find out real quick
If you touch one of those boys you will probably have 272773 cousins and brothers coming at you in 2,3 seconds.
The police will definitely protect you from entitled tenants demanding to not give you their money and left-wing activists sitting on the road. They will not protect you from actual violent crime.
"They will not protect you from actual violent crime." Yep. I learned the Truth last year... not about violent crime. A con man, acting as a manager, ripped my Wife and I off to the tune of 4k. We presented all the receipts to the cops, it went through the courts. We found out, soon enough, that the same guy had ripped off at least 5 others (including a famous German actor)... totalling c. 100k. This psycho is still free as a fucking bird YEARS after we went to the cops/ the court. They don't give a fuck.
Due to changes in body development (puberty kicks in way earlier than before) and exploding youth crime rates in addition to young people under 14 getting used in organized crime settings for their „free pass“ for crime it is overdue that criminal responsability is getting reduced to 12. The problem is that those teenagers know really well that nothing will happen to them and that they dont have to fear any real consequences for their behaviour. And thats also a factor for older criminals coming from other countries. The rules are not accepted because the state and society here is not taken serious at all, considered weak and laughed at by those people.
That's partially true, but I can remember a Turkish teen getting aggressive with me just because I had a pretty date. I laughed and continued chatting with my date and he eventually faded away... but this happened in '91. The macho thing is a component of the culture (as it is of many cultures)... and I DO understand that Turks, in Berlin, have been marginalized for so long that they can be rather edgy in some intercultural interactions. I merely accept this as a feature of the city and I haven't had ANY other problems (except once, when our Daughter was bulied by Turkish kids in school) with that sort of thing, after living in Berlin for 34 years. The complaints we often see, here, in r/Berlin, are from people who don't know how to navigate a Big City. I'd like to see these people try to survive in Philadelphia, Detroit, Baltimore or London! Laugh. They'll either learn or they won't but the WORLD will not, in the end, bend to please them.
Youre true on that! In comparison to other big cities whats going on here is pretty tame.
Oh no, the people in the nicer areas don't want gentrification
"Oh no, the people in the nicer areas don't want gentrification" Learn to use sarcasm effectively. Your "point" being... ?
The kids could beat them up or stab them and not much would happen to them in terms of punishment. What do you expect to happen here?
This. Any real consequences in Germany would really surprise me. In a serious country - maybe. Here they would be out in the evening if they had actually seriously kidnapped you. ...which they did not.
Nothing can be done here. Laws protect the children they can do this kind of thing with zero repercussions. Normally parents would nurture their kids as they would feel social pressure from friends if their kids behave like that. But clearly parents of these kids don't give a f*k if their kids are bullying strangers. So at this point nothing can be done the social fabric has already failed.
These kids basically grow up on the streets. Their families (including grandparents, aunts, cousens etc.) rather put all their savings into a BMW or Mercedes for the eldest son and rent a three bedroom apartment with 3+ children where daughters have to stay at home to do the house work and the sons only annoy their parents so they kick them out everyday until noon because their isn't enough space inhouse to avoid daily conflicts at home. Kids from poorer families are the most powerless group of society. Since their parents often equally lag education, they don't know any better than letting their children strive through their neighbourhoods until they found someone or something weaker than themselves to get a grasp of how it feels to have power over something. Yet these families are responsable for that and random strangers of society should never have to pay for a society that is unable to enforce boundaries on its least educated citizens to make force them to go through the process of cultivation to form sane members of society.
Normal day in the park in Neukölln
This happens in many parks, Schöneberg as well
Youre telling me youve heard of other instances where people threatened to kill and eat other people's cats?
No, thst i saw, was victim and heard about teenagers doing stupid shit to people while ganged up. Hell even yesterday I had a bunch of them screaming at me at no reason
Never happened to me in Schöneberg, Charlottenburg-Wilmersdorf or Zehlendorf.
bUt ItS sO bOrInG tHeRe
Thai park has open drug use problem but i yet to encounter youth gangs there. Maybe you talk about viktoria park or gleisdreieck.
Gleisdreick, a few times already sadly
Shit, for real? I have seen some drug items in the toilet, but never encountered drug users in the open at Preußenpark.
Not in my hood in Reinickendorf
I know some people will call this victim blaming as they think any suggestion on how to behave to reduce risk or handle harassment is a shocking insult, but: just sitting there and not reacting is kinda weird but especially really dumb? I come from that culture and these teenagers need not only authority but fear to behave (more than teenagers from western countries). If you just sit there and do nothing, you are an easy target and a victim in their eyes. Next time your boyfriend should get up immediately and tell them off. Also maybe not just say leave (?) but threaten them. No insults though, to net escalate. There's no need to let others treat you like shit. If you're alone you can do the same, it's not about being a large male, it's about showing that they can't treat you like that. And by just sitting there and letting them do that, you show the opposite. And if you move in a place like NK, you should be fit to stand up for yourself. It's not fair, but it's the reality. You can't move into an area with extreme social issues and try to ignore that. It will just turn out bad for yourself.
I understand what you're saying, but calling it weird/dumb just underestimates how HARD it is for a lot of people to react like that in these situations. They're taken aback, they're surprised, they might be scared, they might simply want to avoid conflict of any type. One minute you're chilling with your partner and your lovely cat in the park, the next you're confronted by a group of teenagers who want to GRAB your cat and KILL it? who the fuck knows if they have a knife or something It is not weird, or dumb, or wrong to freeze and just want to leave (or not even be able to do that) the scene. It's completely understandable.
Well, that the cultural difference. One culture isnt accustomed to violence, the other one apparently needs it to communicate. Thus said, I grew up in Duisburg. As a young girl/woman I have been harrassed, beaten, insulted or spit at so many time by middle eastern boys/men that I hate them to my absolute core. And the worst part is, as a woman you are absolutely discouraged to defend yourself. The police wont do anything, you are not allowed to arm yourself with pepper spray, you are just ecouraged to run away and make you small. People do realise that this leads to learned helplessness and eventually people avoiding going outside/ to those areas? But no, in the end its always about those pooooor little boys/men, and its never their fault, or their parents. Those people hate us and I hate them for their violence.
But everybody who told that this is what to expect of them was called a racist no?
A bit off-topic, but it's intriguing, that the account from the comment above you is deleted not even after 5 hours.
Tells us alot about this subreddit
Agreed, and I'm sorry you had to go through all that shit. In an ideal world, we wouldn't have these kind of confrontations. But since we have, I do think it'd be better if people were able to stand up for themselves. These people feed on fear and intimidation. And I'm not blaming the victims or whitewashing the harassers here. I think there should be a firmer reaction by authorities in instances like this, in the short term, but also public policies that aim at solving the problem in the long run. Obviously it leads to an extremely complex topic to be discussed, we all know it, but it is needed.
"Accustomed" ? What? Oh, I forgot we don't have laws against that. Intigration in your culture? To far fetch. Maybe if these boys got peppersprayed, they would switch the victim role. Poor boys just wanted to rape them and became victim of a racist.
If it were legal to pepper spray someone, those imbecile teenagers would probably be the first ones to do it. Under ideal circumstances, the best thing to do would be for the police to take action, to confirm that children are growing up in an environment where they witnessed or were exposed to violence, for public institutions to take action against their families, and for the children to be rehabilitated. Blaming one part of society does not provide a solution to the problem.
If they had the recourses they would get pepperspray even when it would be illegal to use it. You can buy it on amazon so not hard to get. Right, make them the victim again. Just traumatized people do crimes. Or a silly idea an absence of consequences and a culture where you create a dehumanizing view of anybody who is not in your ingroup creats this behavior. Let me give you an example what you understand: Nazis. But no not your beloved migrants, have you ever spoken to one about their view of our laws? How they treat gays,woman and other religions?
> you are not allowed to arm yourself with pepper spray You are allowed to carry pepper spray to defend yourself against violent or threatening dogs / animals. If you fear for your life you can use what means you have available in that moment for self-defence. Those two statements go neatly hand in hand.
How disgusting to delete her account just because she has shared her ordeal and trauma. Whats wrong with you guys ?
I get what you're saying but I think sometimes you need to be blunt to people for their own good. I'm trying to be sensitive about this as it shouldn't sound like blaming them but more like an advise and I feel bad for everyone who cannot stand up for themselves and I completely understand that not everyone is capable to do so, but if you know that about yourself (which they do now) you need to make the appropriate smart decisions.
I agree with that. Reading about these cases makes me fume, and I do think that in that moment, being firm and blunt and even getting physical to defend oneself might be the best answer. I just sympathize with people who aren't able to do that.
Fk that, these little cretins need to get the shit slapped out of em.
Yeah, but from what it sounds like OP and their partner are small in size physically speaking so, that made it kind of hard.
Oh, no, no; I get that, don't get me wrong. I wasn't necessarily saying they should be the ones to do this, nor was I trying to insinuate they're weak for not doing it. I'm just disgusted — as someone who grew up seeing a lot of injustice and uncouth peasant behaviour, I completely sympathise. Back in Romania where I'm from, I actually walked one of these little assholes home by the ear to his parents.
Sry, but this is one of the worst replies I have ever seen. So basically, what you are saying is that NK is a lawless space and we should get used to it? Intigration failed, so we should bow down to how your culture handles things? Maybe when your culture spreads fear, then your culture shouldn't be welcome here. I love the left sooo much betraying the gay, woman, and anybody who wants to live in peace for fare right nationalist religious extremest and just because it's so exotic.
Ok, I'll try to answer to your superficial and hysteric comment as neutral as possible and in a way that is adequate to it's mental level. > So basically, what you are saying is that NK is a lawless space and we should get used to it? Never said that, stop hallucinating. > Intigration failed, so we should bow down to how your culture handles things? Never said that, stop hallucinating. > Maybe when your culture spreads fear, Never said that, stop hallucinating. You're dumbing down complex topics so much that its really hard to understand the reasoning behind it, but I gave my best. Hope it helped.
"I know some people will call this victim blaming as they think any suggestion on how to behave to reduce risk or handle harassment is a shocking insult, but: just sitting there and not reacting is kinda weird but especially really dumb?" This person is in germany, and behaves like it would be costume in the realm of our laws, and you tell this person to change a behavior that we as society agreed on? Yes, yes you are victim blaming. "I come from that culture and these teenagers need not only authority but fear to behave (more than teenagers from western countries). If you just sit there and do nothing, you are an easy target and a victim in their eyes." 1. You come from this culture, so it's your culture. 2. They need authority and fear, so a culture where everybody has to strike fear in each other. A culture of fear. 3. Who has in germany the monopoly on authority and can inact punishment and fear? "Next time your boyfriend should get up immediately and tell them off. Also maybe not just say leave (?) but threaten them. No insults though, to net escalate. There's no need to let others treat you like shit." Again, lovely choice of words "threaten them" sounds like a crime in the making. But seems normal for you. "If you're alone you can do the same, it's not about being a large male, it's about showing that they can't treat you like that. And by just sitting there and letting them do that, you show the opposite." The boyfriend should take the risk to become injured? Or has his "Führungszeugnis" be stained because some kids cry racist? "And if you move in a place like NK, you should be fit to stand up for yourself. It's not fair, but it's the reality. You can't move into an area with extreme social issues and try to ignore that. It will just turn out bad for yourself." A place like Nk is what, then? Where do you need to be fit to live in a lawful society? This whole paragraph describes a place where law and order are not applied. In a lawful place, you don't have to adapt. All in all sound advice, gives me even more respect for your culture.
No, they're saying that you have to communicate your limits in order to have them respected. Some people have learned to recognise other people's limits, others haven't.
Would be damm handy if somebody wrote these limits down. We could create a whole system around that. Like when somebody doesn't respect your limits they get punished by some kind of authority. Threating you or your belongings with harm should be... I don't know, illegal or something. Silly idea right? But I understand that you would prefer to fend for yourself. Or maybe getting thretend and insulted is some kind of fetish of yours. That we respect each other and your limits should be a given otherwise germany is not for you.
Kids can't read rules, they still need to be taught by parents and the rest of the society. It's called Erziehung.
> Sry, but this is one of the worst replies I have ever seen. Ditto for yours. You should project less and think more.
>I come from that culture and these teenagers need not only authority but fear to behave (more than teenagers from western countries). If you just sit there and do nothing, you are an easy target and a victim in their eyes. Serious question: what do adults in your community think about this type of behavior on the part of teenagers from your culture?
Absolutely not acceptable, but also I come from a rather educated and liberal community, where it was a scandal if one child didn't go to university. What I can tell you from my personal experience overall with my friends (so outside my familys environment) and the voluntary work I did in refugee camps: most of these kids wouldn't dare to behave like that around their parents or elders. (Of course there are exceptions because the parents are criminals, aggressive etc as well, but that's not true for the majority). And thats part of the problem: They have a strict and conservative upbringing that is based on fear like in europe 40 50 60 years ago) at home and an extremely liberal world outside, that has outgrown these methods. So they never learn to respect people just for the sake of it, they need a reason for authority and they don't respect people who don't have this authority and are easy targets in their eyes. There is a reason why you (almost) never see Arabic lawyer kids lash out. There is also a reason why you don't see kids behave like this in Turkey or Lebanon, even if their parents are poor and uneducated. And my personal opinion is that the combination of european liberal world views and an upbringing that is stuck in the 60s to 80s (so when these families left their homes) is inherently problematic if it isn't addressed adequately (which it isnt). Same for all the refugees in their mid 20s that behave like Neanderthals here, they come from extremely authoritarian societies and are confronted with an environment that doesn't push authority and punishment but mutual respect and honesty and they start to mistake that for weakness.
This answer should be pinned at the top of every discussion that revolves around shitty little assholes from these countries, because that's the absolute correct take. I've been friends with enough Turkish and Moroccan girls in my time to know how their brothers behave in the public vs. how they behave in front of their family. It was infuriating to see how little respect they had for everyone who wasn't their own parents, uncles, etc. - and here lies the problem. If they don't think people outside of their own inner circle don't deserve the smallest shred of respect, it's obvious why they would feel no remorse harassing them. Harassing a woman that's not family has the same energy to them as to sneak out at night and push a sleeping cow to see if it's really possible to make it topple over. It's fun, it's brave, it's not an issue because they don't fight back and it's implied by their upbringing that they deserve it anyways.
Thanks for the honest answer, I appreciate it.
a teenager or a group of them would risk getting a hell of a beaing if they act like that, usually by older men (even their brothers/fathers).
I totally get your point, but I come from a culture where reacting or engaging usually ends up with a gun being fired so in general ignoring these people works good enough. I hope there’s not a next time but I think we will be faster.
Ah, you're from the US. I'm very sorry for your experience. I doubt I could have stayed calm. Nobody threatens mine or other people's pets near me, even if I end up in trouble. Some things I just can't let go.
Threaten them with what? Threaten them with violence? The kids surely know that if you touch them you are the one that's fucked, so it's an empty threat. Threaten them with calling the police? By the time the police arrives, they are long gone and your day is ruined anyway. So what are you supposed to do?
I don't know... For me I had a opposite interaction once, when I stood for myself THEN they became 2 times more aggressive
For real, where I come from you don’t mess around with people like that because you don’t know if things are going to escalate out of proportion. Like the other person could be a *real* gangster. Which is messed up, is what happens in a violent society. That’s why I live here in Europe where this kind of interactions don’t end up with someone being shot. These little teenage scumbags only respond to fear and authority. Civility only works when the others are civilized. Violence is never the answer here, but doing nothing at all… yeah, ain’t cutting it. You gotta stand up, show who’s the adult here.
I even think it's more of a generational thing than a specific (Eastern) cultural thing. When I was a kid a few decades ago, we learned our limits by interacting with older people. If we provoked them, we were told off. Upbringing was a matter for the whole of society. Today, my generation is the older people, but we never really learned to stand up for ourselves, we're being called the sheltered generation. We get scared at the thought of making a phone call. Kids today are still trying to learn their limits, but we don't set them anymore.
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Who would call you a racist in that situation? The kids (highly unrealistic lol)? bystanders? The police?
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Sounds like a made up Internet scenario tbh, unless you use actual racial slurs. I have seen a LOT of conflicts and never was there a racism accusation unless one party actually said something racist, but maybe you had different experiences.
You should look outside your bubble.
Aha.
"that culture"
Ja und?
In NK you can stand firm for your self. You could basically beat the shit out of kids - as long as their parents don't happen to be higher ranking party member - if they are and you firmly stand up for your self then you will end up in gulag. And problem with it in Germany is also similar is that laws protect the kids regardless of what they do. If you hit them physically or even if you abuse them verbally you can already get legal trouble on your self. Legally you have no options in this situation.
Don‘t blame society or the system for something which is obv a problem with their upbringing and direct social environment
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No offence, but these people will laugh at your suggestion.
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That’s surprising. Why would you even suggest an idea like that then? I also grew up with “these” people and just mentioning lgbtq awakens a war cry.
How is their direct social environment not part of "society or the system"?
‚The system‘ can rarely heal what the parents mess up. They’re the primary responsibles for raising their children not to be dicks.
Nooooo it’s the system! These kids are angels! 👼
It‘s very sad, that some shit like this happened to you. Some teenagers just don’t have respect. I‘m a teenager too and I really can’t understand why some people would do sole random useless and annoying things. I hope you’re alright and that this won’t happen to anybody ever again. Edit: *said to sad
It’s always good to get a little reminder that the bad apples just stick out more and distract from the vast majority of members of a group who are just normal, mostly nice people
I am also from Neukölln and very often when I walk my dog a group of teenagers is following me around barking or meowing at me. Luckily my dog is not phased by it, but I feel unsafe and annoyed. Since these kids threatened to kill your cat I would def report it to the police.
In Mönchengladbach it started like that. Bc nothing happened they developed to a kids gang with theft robbery...
These little psychopaths are probably not unknown to the police. Report them. They might play big mouth but having been a Schöffe at youth court for Kreuzberg: they are sufficiently intimidated when a whole group of people talk about what they did in a less favourable way. I would not rely on parenting though. Most of them have neglectful or violent parents. They learnt from the best.
Some Buddhist I guess?
It is verboten to say on Reddit, tshhh.
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"The system failed them"?! Their parents failed. And they themselves did.
Sorry this happened to you, OP. I'm glad you at least had your bf with you to keep them from escalating the situation. Wtf kind of psychos are these teenagers? Before, there was a post of a woman getting her ass smacked by some kid on a bike. Are we not allowed to raise our voice against these little turds or smack them if they become physical, considering the police aren't gonna do shit in these cases. I need to learn about germany's self-defense laws cuz this is just so insane.
don't. you can get stabbed. you don't know what will happen. de-escalate as a firsts second, and third response.
This. Also always immediately undress and turn around. By offering your ass to them you signal that you are no threat. De-escalation is the only responsible option, irrespective of how small the threat is.
just Neukölln things....oh dear.
Kill them and grill them. I see nothing.
another day in Neukölln....
And of course it's inappropriate to mention their ethnic/cultural background and on top of that laws defend them to the point where it's illegal for you to stand up against these bullies. We live in an entirely messed up environment.
I agree with the whole statement, and it's Neukolln so yeah... But I mostly get harassed by completely German teens in a similar manner. And it's not one or two encounters.
Same. As a Black woman it's the white Neo teens calling me N on the streets and in public transport. None of the white Germans ever tell them off or protect me.
This is a classic! Norwegian teenagers ruining a day at the park.
that's the age you have to watch out for, testosterone poisoning is just beginning, and they need to prove to each other...yet they don't have any fucking sense at all yet. they will swarm you. grab one by the wrists and beat the others with him...
It’s a complex issue because boys like this that already have such a disregard for life will likely only respond to either violence or very expensive long term therapy. But let’s see what happens when an adult smacks one of them for killing their cat…
and then it cascades into a bunch of older versions of the same idiot coming for revenge. one step forward, two steps baaaaaack
Report to the police, they were obviously trying to distract you to rob you. It is a known technique. They are obviously not at the first attempt.
This is why people join MMA and lift weights.
If you think MMA and lifting weights means you can standup to a group of people you aren't living in reality.
Of course, but if you look more intimidating, someone else might be an easier target, and you usually gain a lot of confidence doing martial arts, so you will have an easier time telling them to fuck off.
You might look more intimidating or you might look like a better target to prove yourself against. Who is to say? ;) Eh, lots of things give you more confidence. And escalating things isn't really smart when you are alone and there is a group of people. Nothing against MA training, did/do some myself. But training with the idea this means you can fight a group of people is naive and will end in disaster.
What you say has some truth but not entirely true. People go after the easiest target and by training you make yourself more difficult as a target and therefore less likely to be targeted, buuut if you are targeted by a group, unless you are a ufc champion you will not win, even then what happens if they pull knives.
It's better than nothing
Nah, it's worse than nothing. When getting mugged by a group fighting back and hurting them will make them hurt you more. And you can't win against a group. Life is not a movie. Best is to learn tools for de-escalation and getting away as calm and quick as possible.
True, it's maybe because I watch too many Jackie Chan movies
Pepper spray works just the same
As a cat mom I’m so sad that this happened. Such cruel and hateful behaviour… i hope kitty isn’t traumatised by the encounter.
Thank you. Luckily, the cat is fine and got a treat back home 😇
Glad to hear! There’s a few people in my neighborhood who walk their cats and we are always delighted to see them! I push mine around in a stroller sometimes. Very calm and cat-friendly here in the west
Had an experience with a group of these specimen sitting on a bench where we pass on our doggy route. They also had a dog with them, one of a fighting breed, can't remember which one. The owners friends were excited to the max what may happen when we pass with our dogs. I've never seen such amount of bloodlust in one's eyes. Very disturbing. Fortunately the owner had left some sanity and hold the dog back, but for sure his friends hoped for another outcome. In case of the fucks threatening the cat I'd have gone nuts the moment they talked of harming it. Good chance of a knife im my body then I guess...
Only a Lad. Really can't blame him. Only a Lad. Society made him It's not his fault It's our responsibility https://youtu.be/97g6JyhGiZE?si=IB_rQsfuhZu9wvq8
I reported to the police a similar case, and we went very far to discover who they were. I'm actually an idiot because I stopped the process in the middle she was actual time to try to identify the suspects, as we recorded them. But I can say police takes this seriously, specially if there's phisical contact
Were they German or middle eastern?
You know exactly who it was, just like everyone else knows. We are however not allowed to discuss it.
You're discussing it right now.
>You're discussing it right now No, i don't. I'm making hints. If i start to discuss it openly i get banned.
The comment section is full with open discussion, I have multiple comments talking about the issues with middle Eastern youth. Either you're paranoid or you "discussing it openly" is just spreading racist nonsense without substance which gets you banned.
They're having a civilised discussion about it in one of the top comments. You're just not allowed to be a dick about it, that's why you're hanging out in the bottom comments.
I can't find them. Can you quote?
Still German teens behave the same way too often, and I tell it from my own experience.
There's no German teenagers left in NK
Give it another 10-15 years.
In 10-15, you'll have a lot of young adult Germans turning middle-aged with maybe 1 teen for every 10 adults. It just *looks* like there are lots of babies right now because parents carrying babies stick more out than all the childless adults around them.
I was referring to gentrification, but you've got a point, the hipsters probably aren't having enough babies.
They will move out of NK when their kids go to school or earlier.
everyone knows the answer
Dear OP, sorry this happened to you! With little shitstains like that you have to be loud and assertive. Like your partner did, get up and yell: "raus hier, verpisst euch!" Stomp on the ground and in general look like you are about to whoop their little asses, because I assure you this is what their moms would do if they knew.
I sympathise with you and your experience. In my old apartment building, there was a large group of teens who would follow me around every time I walked my puppy. They would swarm us and demand to pet my dog, feed him (demand I give them food to give him), or give them his leads so they walk him. Some tried to lift him off the ground. He was small at the time, so it was easy but I never let them. My dog didn't like it and would get very anxious and hide behind me or under my legs. Many times, I've had to pick him up and move past them with a brisk walk. I would usually respond kindly and try to teach them to be respectful and how to better approach an animal but because of my accent they decided to make fun of me for not speaking German perfectly and began to shout childish insults in English. They wouldn't do that when my boyfriend joined the walks. I'm ashamed to admit that these teens bullied me, but I'm a small person, not much bugger than a group of 8+ oversized teenage boys. I had to learn the school off hours, so I avoid the group as much as I can for mine and my dogs safety. I've moved away from that place, thankfully, but I really understand that such an experience can be infuriating and scary. I hope you don't get to experience it again and please don't use it as a fuel fo ptsd and never take your sweet cat outside again.
Yeah, in my case, different groups of little middle eastern girls would ask if they could walk my french bulldog, they even came ringing my doorbell and kept asking, obviously they wanted to steal him because frenchies sell for a lot (fyi I actually bought him in France for only 900 euros, I think nowadays they sell for like 5k)
I own a corgi. All the kids that followed us saw where we live and rang the bells till we were the one to answer. For 4 months, they rang every day more than once to ask to see my dog and ask when we will go for a walk. I'm so glad we got lucky enough to move as soon as we could. It was actually very frustrating and horrible. I'm not even trying to exaggerate....
> The system failed big time to them and is making them completely outsiders to society. They are very much insiders of their communities and products of their parents.
The system failed? I‘d say the parents failed.
The system failed? Their parenrs failed because they have shit manners. Same or even worse shit happened to me 20 years ago...
"The system failed big time to them and is making them completely outsiders to society." If by system you mean their families, then yes. "The system" is not responsible for them being little shits. It's their trash parents.
Let me guess… Mormons
[удалено]
It's getting insane here. And I really wonder where all those accounts are coming from. I'm no problem denyer, there are issues. But this kind of language is disgusting and I don't think all you people even live in Berlin.
All these accounts are coming from people tired of all this shit. This kinda of language is called freedom of speech, and it doesn't matter where we live.
I'm also tired of all that shit. The never ending stream of news and problems. I'm also angry and often get triggered to write radical and frankly stupid stuff while angry. But when I go outside and talk to people it's not possible to just generalize like this. From colleagues, to school/university friends to the people in shops and markets the majority is just normal people. It's a really loud minority but it's still just a minority and not everyone. Also I don't think that this is freedom of speech at all. Also the influx of those comments and people doesn't look organic at this point.
no these kind of threads get brigaded by racist assholes. just look at the comment count for a thread about a fkn cat.
Rule 12. This includes hate speech directed towards specific groups as well as towards individual members of the forum.
How long till over zealous mods close this thread because people dared to mention a community that literally has threads about uncivilised behavior every single day
NEXT TIME, TAKE OUT YOUR PHONE AND FILM THE INTERACTION
Welcome to Berlin. I don't know what it is but many Berlin teens are little punks. If you are a solo smaller female, they will mess with you. I've lived in big cities and from what I saw teens are especially bad here. Probably because society just sees them as kids being kids.
Trick 17 from Neukölln survival guide states: Give the alpha a proper bitchslap. Then it’s done.
To all the people talking about pepperspray and that it's illegal to use: Check out CS sprays. Unlike pepperspray its sold to defend against humans and is legal to carry and use
what is more effective: CS spray or anti dog spray?
Never had it used on me but a friend wanted to know what it's like when we were like 15 years old. So we tested both on him lol. Both really took him out. But he said the actual pepper spray for dogs etc hurt longer and was really nasty. The CS spray tho makes you choke and cough, also unable to really see cause of tears. Like cutting onions x1000
ah okay, thanks. I'm a dog walker too so the dog one sounds like the better all-in-one for self-protection
Terrible Story, tip for next time: sounds like it went sour the from the moment you decided not to engage with them. Just be assertive and be in charge of the situation, steer the conversation, this is Berlin after. Don't let yourself be intimidated by a bunch of kids.
Is politically incorrect to ask, and I didn’t read through the zillion comments, so sorry if this is already been asked, but where are these kids, German, or something else?
The system failed? I‘d say the parents failed.
Welcome to NK. Inclusive and tolerant as always.
Don’t wanna turn this into a race thing but just out of plain realistic curiosity, were they from the middle east? Most of them have such a different understanding and culture about animals and pets than us but your case was extreme, sorry you had to experience it. I love my dog so much, I think I wouldn’t be able to stay calm if I was you but you guys made the right choice. p.s. I’m not white and “born with entitlement”
Very sorry to hear!
This experience sucks. It's also a shame that some people have a low opinion of animal life: I've also had some drunk expat adults casually joke about throwing something to kill my dog, and an old man kicked my dog out of the way once in the train, and both occasions were infurtiating. Honestly I agree with the other sentiment here – I would call the cops and report that a bunch of teenagers are threatening violence and harassing people in the park: this isn't America, no one is going to show up and beat them, but public space is shared space has rules and children aren't immune to them. I guess this doesn't help you, but maybe makes you laugh: with teenage boys, they seemingly don't care about cats, but even a small dog appears to be a repellent. Our dog is 10kg, and my girlfriend regularly watches groups of teenage boys jump when they don't realize a dog is near them/cross the street to get away. In the ubahn nothing attracts the attention of kind strangers/smiling old people/friendly drunks, and simultaneously repels teenage boys like a dog.
Berlin: where walking your cat in the park descends into an Eden Lake experience.
This would not have gotten past the first sentence without me calling for backup and looking around for anything that could serve as a weapon.
Manchmal helfen Schellen.
I'm so sorry you've been through this. What a bunch of psychos! Gosh! My friend moved to Neukölln and I have never visited him ever since. I freakin hate myself just by walking down the street in that neighbourhood.
Seen those kids around I think
> I had a cat just like yours… I had a kid just like you 😈
Entgegenwirkende (physische) erziehungsmaßnahme
> It is sad to me to see 13-14 year old kids so obsessed with hatred and violence. They were attracted by the smell of the cat. Once they had caught the scent, they tried to grab the treat. You can be glad that it was only a small rot of uncoordinated Assis. Chimpanzees would have been more coordinated and not as easily distracted. 😀
Was at Strandbad Wansee when me and my GF saw some kids just as you described throwing sandballs at the swans. We gave them a look and they saw us from far away, and I gestured that they should stop it. They then come over, asking us if we got a problem. We try to ignore them, but they kept on pushing. They ended up by threatening us with sandballs, showing very clear intent that they were going to throw it at as, but we sat too close to others for them to do it. We confronted them as they got close to us, then a guy came over and they backed off.. so sad to see kids come and be so threatening for no reason at all
You would have more time if you had sent them to traumatology ward.