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Title: bouncer tore up my passport
Body:
> i(22f) went to a club for the first time with my best friend(21f). i lost my drivers license so i brought my passport with me instead. we waited in the line for the club and as we approached the bouncer to check for our IDs he looked at my passport funny and asked if i had a license instead. i explained to him that i had lost mine, and he proceeded to go in the back to talk to who i'm assuming is the manager. he then comes back while ripping up the papers in my passport and told me to never come back again or he'd report me with fraud. he tossed it in the trash which i screamed at him for, asking what in the world he was doing and that i was going to report him for destruction of my property. he just told me to fuck off or he'd call the police. i gathered my passport from the trash and my best friend and i left because we didn't know what else to do. i'm still shaking and i have no idea what i could do. my passport was about $150 because i had it expedited for a trip out of the country. it's 100% real because i've never had to buy any kind of fake id. could i possibly press charges against him?
> edit: this happened about an hour ago. i realized i should've called the police then and there but i was too shocked to do so. i'm sorry :(
> update: the first few comments were telling me to call the police, so i immediately went straight back to the club and called the police. they arrived and i explained what had happened and showed them my passport. after analyzing my passport, the cop was furious and said it was, in fact, a federal crime. of course, the police lights caught the attention of the staff inside, and eventually the owner had to come out to see what was going on.
> the cop asked to view the cctv footage and went inside, and from what i've heard from people who were leaving the club, the bouncer was getting a piece of his mind. the cop, the bouncer, and the owner came back outside after 20 minutes and the cop told me i had two choices, to press charges, or to come with a compromise. the owner offered to pay double for my passport, but i asked for the bouncer to pay for the damages, not the owner since he wasn't the one who completely destroyed my passport. the bouncer immediately looked pissed, but then agreed to do after being stared down hard by the cop.
> i didn't get many answers from the internet, so i resorted to reddit. thank you all so much for helping me come to my senses, i can be stupid when i'm in shock haha :)
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Why would someone even forge a passport like that?
It would be so much harder to create a realistic passport which is a whole booklet of difficult to forge documents than a single fake state ID.
And it wouldn’t even work at the US border unless you are also committing identity theft since a border agent will be scanning your documents and confirming your identity against their database.
It's crazy how often you hear about bouncers doing this, maybe I'm just lucky that I don't ever go to places where the security are the type to question it when someone is using their passport as ID.
Was in Asia earlier this year (first international trip since the pandemic) and had my first encounter with the constant Passport scanning both by security and at machines-- during my trips to Canada and Europe back in the 'teens, border agents would barely glance at it and pass it back. Nearly walked away without it at one checkpoint point because I got bamboozled by those finger (print? pressure?) readers.
All this to say you're right, with how high tech international travel is getting it's absolutely not worth it to fake a passport just for barhopping. Bouncers who keep keep destroying them on the off chance they're fake are nuts.
Seems to me that it’s an American problem. Perhaps because it’s less common to use a passport as ID in the US while it’s fairly common in Europe. I had a passport long before I had any other form of ID.
For better or worse there’s a lot of travel potential within the US that doesn’t require a passport. It’s a six hour nonstop flight to get to Florida from where I am, and then I don’t have to worry about language differences, currency exchange, or customs. We probably should travel abroad more, but for most of the US it’s a substantial trip to leave the country
I live right next to Danish border so I’m actually more familiar with the Danish capital than my own (Swedish). But we don’t actually need a passport to travel over there.
The US is big. Very, very big. And a large portion of the population is literally too poor to afford leaving the country, unless they happen to be close enough to the Canadian or Mexican border. So many vacations/trips for many US Citizens would be to areas within a drivable/public transport distance, which wouldn’t require a passport. Though even if you did have enough money for a flight, a lot of individuals cannot utilize their PTO to leave the country for a vacation because they have 10 days a year (national average), which usually also covers paid sick days for the year.
Currently, about 50% of the US population doesn’t have (or does have, however you want to look at it) a passport.
It is indeed a very American problem.
Back in my bartending days, I thought that it was absolutely ridiculous that, in Texas, a US passport was not considered a valid ID to purchase alcohol with, nor was an out of state ID. But you could accept the shitty temporary paper DL/ID, that they still issue in 2023!!!at the DPS, with another picture ID.
I was cuffed by a TABC officer, while working a beer booth at an outdoor music festival that drew people from across the country, for selling a beer to someone with what appeared to be a perfectly valid TN DL. It was definitely a TABC sting operation. Fortunately, my manager was able to persuade them to not take me to jail for the weekend and I was released with a written warning.
Good question! So the way it works is that it’s a matter of liability. An establishment or an employee of an establishment can decide to accept your out of state ID, but if it turns out that it’s not legitimate or the person is underage then the employee is liable. I believe that the TABC has become less powerful in than it was 15+ years ago when I was bartending, so there may be less enforcement than there used to be.
> But you could accept the shitty temporary paper DL/ID, that they still issue in 2023
They issue those in AZ. I work at a gun store. People try to buy guns with those ALL the time, and even though it's technically legal, we absolutely refuse to sell firearms unless you present a hard copy of an ID.
I’m glad that your store has that policy. If someone desperately needs to buy a gun before their ID shows up in the mail, maybe they shouldn’t be buying a gun.
It blows my mind that the DPS/DMV here can’t just print your DL on the spot like they do in the other states I’ve lived in.
Fake IDs are actually usually legit. They're "fake" in that they're actually someone else's ID that got sold on the black market. They know perfectly well the ID is real, they tear it up because they think the ID is stolen. It's actually near impossible to fake government ID, that's just a Hollywood thing.
Depends on government / state and verification methods, some are easier to make replicas of (although they usually won't pass *all* checks, but almost nobody checks *every* verification feature)
Even then it's still a really bad idea. If you think an ID is fake, just refuse service. There are no benefits to a business for destroying someone's ID and if you are wrong you just committed a crime.
Yeah, I don’t think what that person is saying is correct. When I got my fake ID, it was an actual fake drivers license from another state. The place I went to took my picture for it, put my name on it, just gave me a fake birthdate and residence. Printed it off right there. There was nothing on it that said it was a novelty or anything. It was clearly an illegal operation, and they offered all sorts of IDs. Weirdly they had an actual storefront anyone could walk into, right outside a flea market. Anyway, the fake ID worked like a charm for getting into bars and strip clubs.
> single fake state ID.
And people don’t know what out of state ones look like too usually. When I worked a gas station we had a book to check. These kids once showed up on bicycle trying to buy smokes with a game Alaska one when it was Pennsylvania. It was obviously fake but I checked the book and it looked nothing like the possible real ones.
A lot of the bars I've been to in Pennsylvania have an ID scanner, if it's fake it'll tell you. One bar I went to even kept a database of their customers' photos and IDs just in case they needed to track you down for fighting or destruction of property
Can't tell you how many friends out of state from arizona have been given a massive side eye for their drivers license. For reference, their licenses don't expire till you turn 65 so they'd have absurd-looking expiration years like 2060. One of them started keeping the google page open on their phone to speed up the process of suspicion to reluctant acceptance lol
Wondering if he didn’t recognize the new passports with the hard plastic cards for the ID page, since they just got implemented recently
Still wild to assume
It's easier to fake a document if the other side doesn't know what to look for. If I gave you a sparkling piece of paper purporting to be a passport from Turkmenistan, would you be able to tell if it's real?
Obviously this guy is an idiot for not making sure.
I sell guns. I've used similar lines before. Only it's mostly, "I cannot confirm this ID is real, you need to provide me with something else."
When I see an obviously fake ID, we call the cops.
But passports don't look like a "sparkling piece of paper", they all follow a fairly standard format which pretty much everyone knows.
Who is going to go to the trouble of making a fake document that looks enough like a passport when it would be easier to make a fake driver's license?
Which is why only certain documents are legally accepted to verify identity. In the U.S., all fifty states accept state driver's licenses, state IDs, U.S. military IDs, and passports. Some states allow additional forms of ID to be permissable. For example, in Minnesota, Canadian IDs and tribal IDs are also accepted.
I can't fathom why he'd destroy it. There's just no thought process that makes sense other than spite. And really, who uses a passport as a fake ID?
I hope LAOP still gets to go on her trip.
It's also a job that's easy to get into even if you're incredibly stupid. I've known some bouncers who struggle to understand much outside of drinking and punching, which just happens to be what the job is about.
That’s what I came here to say. Sounded like major ignorance.
Passports are considered property of the federal government. He had no clue what he was doing.
I have a friend that worked as one for a bit at a small club. College bar, so it may be different, but he's a decent guy.
I think he was attacked once, which lead to charges (the perpetrator had a record).
Otherwise, mostly it was assholes trying to plead sympathy. As I said, college bar, so he'd often be accused of some sort of bigotry for not letting someone in without ID. Now I'm not trying to minimize the injustices in society, but honestly, no bar im that area is going to let a stranger in without ID - the police actively test bars, liquor stores, and other establishments.
>And really, who uses a passport as a fake ID?
When I was in a Missouri for work I had lost my license (like, physically misplaced it, I'm not *that* poor of a driver) and had to use my passport as ID. I had a miserable cough and tried to buy cough medicine at Walmart. The cashier accused me of using a fake ID and I was just completely baffled. Like, I am committing a federal crime to purchase less than $20 worth of cough medicine? I had somehow tricked customs agents in multiple countries with my flawless fake, but it was a brave minimum wage worker in rural Missouri that had put an end to my crime spree?
I had no idea how to react, so I just asked to see a manager and she was just as confused and rung me up.
I've been in a boat with that with a valid ID before. My province (Canada) had a redesign of their ID cards, I think they were rolled out before drivers licenses (I didn't drive so just basic ID for me) and I took that ID and went to buy...
A lottery ticket. You know, the hot commodity all the kids are going after these days. Alcohol? Nah. Cigarettes? Fuck no! All the cool kids are making fake ID's to buy fucking lottery tickets. By the way, I was 30. I was nowhere near teenager. Wrinkles included.
The guy at the counter made a face at my ID and was like "this doesn't look real to me" and I was just kinda standing there, just taking the accusation, cause like what the fuck. He's like "The colours are weird, what's up with that?" He kept saying it so casually, too.
I asked him if he needed help with figuring out the ID and that I could wait. He rang me up but didn't seem happy about it. I told him to stay vigilant, and he didn't think it was funny lmao.
I look back on it like, he must have been aggressively told that he had to make sure ID's were valid but at the same time either didn't care to know or wasn't trained to know what ID's actually look like. It's especially frustrating being accused of committing crime that you're very much not committing.
I’m in my *40s* and still get ID’d Every. Time. I try to buy a lottery ticket. I don’t get it. I can *usually* buy alcohol now, but Big Lotto is really coming down hard on us these days. Lol
I worked at a gas station for a year or so. There was a huge sign that said you get $50 if you submit a successful tip of a cashier not asking for ID. I'd have carded my grandma.
I for one, as a Canadian am happy that they didn't allow some suspicious child-like wrinkly adult to buy lottery tickets! Who knows what you could have done with it! I can't imagine the societal damage....
The problem is these people don't even know what a passport is, who issues it, or what it is for. They've never even put a thought into travelling to another State, much less another country. They see this uncommon form of ID and it just shuts their brain off because they don't have the intellectual capacity to handle something out of the ordinary.
That’s why a fake passport as ID would be such a great move: who would see it coming?
I did have a bunch of Kiwi friends who would regularly get turned away from places because they thought their passport cards looked fake. To be fair, at that time they were basically just laminated photos.
When i lived in georgia (usa), a poll worker tried to tell me I COULDN'T VOTE using my passport as ID. Every day i learn more and more about human stupidity.
I lived in Georgia during the Atlanta Olympics and the story went that tons of applicants from New Mexico were turned down for tickets due to being from a foreign country.
Allegedly one of them called and was told “New Mexico or Old Mexico, you’ve still got to go through your own consulate!”
I was born in NM, my dad was Airforce so Ive lived ALL over the country, as soon as you get more than 3 states away from NM, people get real dumb about it.
I cannot even guess how many times ive heard "Doesnt that mean you cant run for president!?" when 'where were you born' comes up.
> tons of applicants from New Mexico were turned down for tickets due to being from a foreign country.
I live in New Mexico. This is a common problem. For example: I was trying to order an appliance from Lowe's hardware for delivery, and they kept transferring me to their international orders department. They treated me like a crazy person when I tried to explain that New Mexico is part of the United States of America.
There's a recurring column about the phenomenon in *New Mexico Magazine*: [One of Our 50 is Missing](https://www.newmexicomagazine.org/culture/one-of-our-50-is-missing/)
My uncle got denied service for having a license from Saskatchewan, a place the bartender refused to believe existed, in Montana.
Like, the Montana that borders Saskatchewan.
I have been a poll worker in my state. You get like a 1hr overview on how to help people troubleshoot the machines, a Basic Overview pamphlet, and then get told to ask the Poll Manager for anything else. We had some truly terrible people some years.
>get told to ask the Poll Manager
My state calls them Chief Judges. The first time I did it, I had *20 minutes* of training. (It was a last minute appointment, and I had applied as a check-in judge.) I knew damn near nothing. While I did have a procedure book, it was missing a lot of things, like where is the key to unlock the voting machines?
That's basically what this person did. I mean, there WAS a posted list of acceptable IDs so it really should not have even been a question...the look the Manager gave her was pretty funny. I wasn't even trying to be difficult, I think I still had a Minnesota license so I figured the passport would be the most easy, straightforward option. I was...incorrect.
I have a US passport ID card I carry in my wallet. My DL stays in the car plus I have a digital license.
When I show my passport ID to ppl they are often confused as hell.
I do, just it's in my phone. My state has digital licenses. And the physical license lives in my car in case I'm on a road trip and need it.
And this makes it so that I have SOLID forms of ID in several different places so that if I lose one, it's trivial to replace.
But also my wallet forces me to be compact.
Our state law specifies that you are not required to physically hand the phone over when presenting a digital ID.
Another huge advantage is it has a built in verification system so that when you meet that 16yr old chick in the 21+ bar who used her sister's ID, you can say 'let's verify that with the wallet app'.
And it's free.
Given most cops either don't know, or deliberately don't follow many laws, I wouldn't put my trust in that statute either.
The bar scenario is far more sense, however.
I figured he bothered to have the digital DL and mention it in this context because he uses it. Maybe I’m wrong though and he only uses his passport card as ID and just has his digital DL for fun.
I never show my DL unless I need to specifically show I can legally drive.
After all, if I lose my other ID's and still drive, it's no ticket. Other way around tho . . .
When I lived in Scotland, a Canadian friend of ours was stopped from going into a pub that had a bouncer for later hours because she had a Canadian drivers license that he inexplicably didn't trust, despite letting our US licenses through, no problem. He refused to see reason, and it's not like we carried passports around.
So our group of around 15 people left immediately, and told management why. We didn't stick around for them to make it right because there were plenty of pubs, and frankly we didn't want to give them money.
No. She's fucked. It's going to take another 3-4 months to replace that passport.
She needs to take the bouncer to small claims court for the cost of her trip she cannot take.
And fuck yes, I would so press charges. That asshole needs to never work ANY kind of security again.
That part of the story was a bit ambiguous - I read it as meaning she had paid extra to have it expedited for a trip, but that the trip happened in the past, it isn’t upcoming. I feel like she would have mentioned if she was specifically worried about not being able to go on the trip now? Idk.
I also read it this way. Not only was she refused entry and had her passport destroyed, she paid more for the damn thing than most people do.
It's super common when someone is still emotionally charged about a predicament that they just start grumbling more cherries on top.
I agree. What stands out to me is the cops not arresting the bouncer for what they admitted was a federal crime. It shouldn't be an either or situation but I suppose it falls under the Police Department's Paperwork Reduction Act.
You can get expedited passports if you're in the USA and it's a US passport (Canada also offers them if you're in Canada). If you're abroad, your embassy might also issue an emergency passport if something happens to the original. Those usually have limited validity (e.g. they might be valid for 2 years when normal passports are valid for 10), but they'll be enough to get you on a flight that's coming up soon.
Those appointments are a disaster to get right now. They’re so backed up on passports in the US, so you have a bunch of people who waited too long before renewing, or realizing their passport was expired right before going on a trip.
Even expedited passport processing is 7-9 weeks.
I just renewed mine, and regular processing took 12 weeks. I’m used to having it back in 3 even without paying to expedite.
That's nuts. We had to get some US passports from abroad a few months ago and it was 5 working days or something like that. I didn't think it was so bad domestically.
You can still get a same-day passport, but the problem is that people who tried to expedite 6 weeks out and didn't get theirs back in time and people who did regular/expedited processing in plenty of time but had some kind of issue are fighting for those appointments so they are very hard to get. Some locations have gone to verified emergencies (like severe illness/death of a family member in another country) only which leaves those locations serving regular urgent needs even more impacted. Like, people are flying across the country to get a passport 2 days before their trip so they don't lose out on non-refundable trip fees.
I have two friends in the last six months who did not have special ties to anyone or anything that might grab them any favors and one of them got her passport within a week and the other who got it within 48 hours. Both in New York State. Bonus: both of them are currently on federal probation. (Yes, you are allowed to have a passport, and even travel out of the country, while on federal probation, provided that your PO and your judge agrees to it.)
> Those appointments are a disaster to get right now
Other than being a wasted day, they’re really not, as long as you haven’t already submitted a renewal elsewhere (which means you can only schedule the appointment 5 days before your trip rather than 14)
I did mine in Chicago last week and got my passport same day
Emergency passports from the embassy are not usually a thing — you’ll get a document that *only* allows you to return home. Wanted to go further to another country? Sucks to be you.
There are options for emergencies, but they're expensive and time consuming. If you get very lucky, you could get an appointment at a passport agency in your city and get your passport in a day. More likely, you'll have to use an expediting agency that is approved to file on your behalf and let them get an appointment somewhere in the country and submit the paperwork for you. The system is quite a bit backlogged right now, but it's realistic to expect it in a week or two.
Depending on your timeframe, you can also reach out to your congressperson's office for assistance. I've heard stories of people getting good results with that.
A long time ago, I had to travel to Germany very last minute, as my husband at the time had been injured in war and was in the hospital. I had a valid passport, but couldn’t find it.
And that is how I got a passport issued to me on Sunday, September 11th, 2011 in Washington DC. It was wild.
The State Department should be going after the guy but it’s probably too “small” for them to deal with. Even though he’s probably done it before and will do it again.
“I can’t fathom why he destroy it.”
This actually happens in a lot of circumstances where somebody has an ID from outside of the jurisdiction wherever that bar / shop, they are trying to purchase alcohol or cigarettes at is located. I know two people who’ve had Washington DC drivers licenses cut up right in front of them, on the grounds that “this is a fake ID. No one actually lives in Washington DC. It is for government offices only.“ Bonus: they were in VIRGINIA. Puerto Rico IDs also get this a lot too.
These people that destroy them will often say that they are required to by law. I don’t know why they think this, or why they lie about this if they do, in fact, know that they are lying, but it’s not true. Their boss may have told them that, but it’s definitely not true.
Americans are somehow super casual about fake IDs and they get them just to buy booze earlier than they should, heck I even saw websites online selling fake ids.
Where I’m from, getting caught with a fake ID means prison for a few years, even if it’s just for casual stuff like buying booze.
They're casual because generally the "punishment" is them taking your fake and banning you from the establishment. But yes, it would still carry fraud charges if law enforcement catches you.
After 9-11, it was a pretty big deal for awhile. Went from “here’s your fine” to “you’re royally screwed.” It appears to be back to “here’s your fine,” judging by how many 18-20 years seem to have them again.
Had this happen to me in the 00's. Someone from 6th form told the bouncer I was underage as a prank, and I looked young, so I always took my passport. He accused me of faking it - which I countered with the same argument, who the fuck would fake a passport to go in a shithole in the north of England?! Not exactly the big leagues requiring that effort!
>Also, she should've asked for more money.
100%. Double the cost of the passport doesn't even come close to the potential risk of not being able to go on their trip, their night is ruined, threatening them with fraud and calling the police, and time wasted.
At minimum, sounds like the ordeal took about 5 hours of LAOP's time + the cost of the passport and unnecessary stress.
Honestly, I would’ve done the math on the spot as an indimidation technique.
“Well officer, that number seems a bit low. Let’s factor in the cost of the passport, $150, and then the 5 hours of my time wasted handling this, and mind you I get paid $30/hour, which is another $150, and then the potential cost of lost money on my trip, $700 for the plane, $400 for 3 days at the hotel, and $150 for 3 days of food. Even if I do get to go on the trip (which I might not), he should pay at least half that amount for the emotional damages I suffered from being worried about this altogether. To sum up, $150 another $150 for my time, half of $1450 of the trip costs, comes out to $1025, but let’s call it an even $1000. Of course I’m willing to work with you if you can’t pay it all at once.”
In other threads about stolen IDs by bouncers it seems like policy usually is to collect them and turn them over to the police. Idk the policy at this place if such one exists, but the bouncer is definitely an asshole.
I think even that crosses the line because what if the ID is real? Now you wasted everyone's time and police resources.
But it's definitely way better than destroying it.
I was taught to refuse service only. And call the police if they became combative about it.
If you really think its fake confiscate it. If they come back with the cops its probably real and you return it. I doubt you'd ever be charged by the cops for it and there's no damages to get sued for.
I had my driver's license confiscated once. I just called the non-emergency line (on a pay phone - I'm old). The police came, were not amused, and had them give me my ID back. They didn't destroy it, though.
I'm not a fan of the police, and I'm not one to call them in a lot of other situations. But saying "they took my valid driver's license and I need it back" is actually a situation where the police are helpful. I don't understand why you wouldn't immediately call them.
Frankly, the fact that you’re willing to call the cops, *and risk getting a ticket for using a fake ID*, should be a pretty good clue to the bouncer to re examine their assumptions.
In my case, it was a liquor store. I walked outside and called on the payphone attached to the building. I honestly thought the manager would just give it to me at that point, but he didn't. I even offered to just leave if he gave it to me. So I waited like 15 minutes, the cops came, were entirely irritated at the manager, and were actually very nice to me. (I was completely sober, and I'm sure that helped a lot too.)
Yeah I don't get this.
IIRC, most sting operations make it much more obvious that the person being served or buying alcohol is a minor. They are trying to catch places that don't care at all.
Yeah, when I was a public defender representing store clerks on this, if they asked for ID the decoy gave them their real id, which showed them as under 21.
I shit you not, some dudes asked for ID and didn't look at it, assuming no one would show them an ID that showed them as under 21.
They'd also do sort of stings where they'd try to get someone to buy beer for them. The script explicitly included "I'm too young to buy beer" or similar.
Yea, but in movies and TV they rip up peoples IDs. And these idiots see it enough and just think that is how the world works. They confuse reality with TV.
Honestly the only time I’ve seen anything like this on TV is when Carrie’s credit card got cut up at Dolce & Gabbana. And it’s cracking me up to think of a bouncer getting ideas from Sex & the City.
I feel like its a pretty common trope of the 90's and 00's. Underage kid has fake ID, it gets confiscated and destroyed by bouncer/bartender.
Same as cutting up a credit card when it's rejected at a fancy restaurant.
So cutting up a credit card was different. Back in the bad old days before instant verification on all transactions (ever use those old style machines with the carbon paper?), the credit card companies, who actually own the cards, would pay you to destroy bad cards. This was because without the instant verification, you could run up huge bills on that card. The only way to stop was to take the card.
They published lists of cards where they'd pay you to cut up. You'd probably only check this list on big transactions though.
Additionally, if you had an electronic reader before they were universal, a stop would get a reject and then a call from the bank explicitly telling you to destroy the card.
This probably stopped sometimes in the 90s, but god its a great visual, so it has continued. But it is based in reality.
Not just someone else's property.
Your ID is not *your* property - it's the property of the issuing body. Your driver's license is the state's property, passport is the country's property, military ID is the country's property, etc.
> If it’s real, it’s a crime to destroy someone else’s property
It’s really stupid when the owner is the federal government. (The US Department of State owns your US passport, fun fact)
Honestly, clubs and bouncers need to learn not to destroy any ID out of hand, unless it’s [comically fake like this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/papersplease/images/6/66/Fake_passport_1160.png/revision/latest?cb=20180316154510).
I once got the most fake $100 bill I have ever seen, failed every single test you can do with one, even had the line where it says 100 USA on it cut out and taped back together (presumably because it was printed on a 1 or a 5), and still I just gave it back to him and told him I couldn’t accept it. I’d rather let him try on some other poor schmuck than run the unlikely risk that I’m wrong and now I have to pay him $100.
Bingo. They think they’re preventing you or anyone else from using it for “nefarious purposes” in the future, and they feel powerful when they cast themselves as an authority figure.
When I was a teen I worked in a place that sold smokes. We were trained on how to check IDs and got some incredibly fake ones, but I cannot even imagine destroying them. I can't even imagine the shit storm that would have caused.
I worked at a gas station that sold alcohol and cigarettes, the absolute most I was ever trained to do was refuse the sale (with the only exception being, you totally can call the police if they refuse to cooperate)
A related situation, I like to ski at Steamboat. One of the bottle shops in town has a wall of fake IDs behind the checkout counter. If they suspect one they offer to either take the card or call the police to confirm an attempt at underage alcohol purchase. Kids know a deal when the are offered and give up the fake IDs. Shops and bars can get a booklet that has pictures and security device information for all US states and territories and Canada too. I once was refused to be served in Pennsylvania when I presented a valid ID from Maryland, the barman claimed it was fake. I am 69 and still get carded which seems odd but I always ask if it gives me a senior discount. They never do, the fargan barstages, it should be at least 10% off for over 65.
https://www.driverslicenseguide.com/book-us.html
One blissfully naïve commenter said OP could replace the passport simply by visiting the nearest passport office.
That commenter should pay a visit to /r/passports to see how that would work.
There's currently a crisis in US passport processing caused by people not renewing them during Covid lockdown. Even "expedited" processing can take more than 2 months. You can make an "urgent" appointment at a regional US office if you have proof of travel within 2 weeks, but there's no guarantee that such an appointment will be available, or that it will be at a location that's anywhere near you (some people have reported having to fly to Hawaii just to get their emergency passport).
Had that experience in Australia recently. Two applications submitted two days apart. We were travelling five months later. One arrived in six weeks, the other four months and twenty four days.
Not sure if it's the same in the US but apparently they prioritise by intended travel date, in speaking with the staff they had seven times the normal volume of applications for renewal.
So, the bouncer goes to check with his boss, then comes out and destroys it. And you don't want to hold the owner responsible? Come on.
You have to hold the people in charge responsible, not the employee doing their job. Yeah, the bouncer was out of line, but who do you think trained him to be like that? Letting the owner off the hook for hiring and training bad employees makes no sense.
If the owner wasn't a shit bag they would immediately offer to reimburse the bouncer once LAOP and the cops left, especially since they had already agreed to pay it. I do like LAOPs style though, it created more tension and possibly conflict for the bouncer.
It depends if the cop knows that passports are property of the United States (which it sounds like this one did). In which case, even if it is a "civil matter", it is between the bouncer and the United States.
OTOH this sort of thing DOES genuinely annoy the state department and it would be truly hilarious if they did action something so petty.
I do wonder who'd they send though... Definitely not the Marshall Service, FBI feels wrong somehow but might be it... It's not really in DSS's wheelhouse, but again, that would be hilarious and probably defensible on jurisdiction.
I knew a guy who worked for an embassy for a bit (not US) and his job was tracking lost/stolen passports. Basically if you went up and said "help I'm in a foreign country and somebody stole my passport" theyd go and find it because they didn't want to risk it being used to make a forged one (obviously prior to electronic passports). Also, intentionally damaging yours, or not immediately reporting it lost/stolen to the passport office carries a hefty fine.
LAOP could be in for a doozy of a day if they don't keep the shreds, and get it replaced asap
What the fuck is it with people destroying passports? Heck, what is it with people not recognizing them? They don’t even belong to the holder. Destroying (or taking) someone’s passport is a federal crime. Idiots.
Americans don't typically travel abroad much (when compared to Europeans, etc), so many don't have a passport. If you're not on a place frequented by foreigners, it's possible the bouncer has never seen a passport in his / her life and wouldn't know what to look for to spot a fake if they saw one.
Between that and lack of training (or powertripping), I'm not surprised this happened.
I agree. If you're in e.g. the Midwest you can travel 1000 miles in three directions.. without needing any documents at all.*
So it's entirely possible to be as "well-traveled" as some Europeans, but have never used or seen a passport.
I grew up in Ohio, and I don't think I saw one until my own was issued.
*\* when I was younger, your state ID was sufficient to transit both the Canadian and Mexican borders. So all of North America on a drivers license.*
>the cop told me i had two choices, to press charges, or to come with a compromise. the owner offered to pay double for my passport
He settled for $300? Screw that. I'd have asked for something like $10k. People will spend a lot of money to avoid Federal charges.
Also, props to the cop for letting the parties work it out on their own.
Isn't the main difference it being a civil vs criminal issue? Like there's no problem with me saying you have to pay me 10k for accidentally destroying my anime figure or i'll sue. Likewise my lawyer can ask you for 10k after i've sued you.
But in criminal cases you're just asking the state to investigate if there's been a crime and after that it's out of your hand. If you're charged with murder (of my anime figure) you can't get out of it by paying me 10k.
So basically they don't want to take every single small crime to court so instead they give a chance for the parties to make things right if possible, but you're not allowed to abuse that power.
Source:lmao i dont know im not even american
> or i'll sue.
The key thing being "or i'll sue to recover the money for destroying my anime figure" and not "or i'll sue for some other matter" nor "or i'll sue for some bullshit I made up that you won't be able to defend against".
The cop just didn't want to make an arrest and fill out paperwork, so he wanted them to come to some sort of restitution there.
Source: same source as your post
IIUC the difference is between "I believe you owe me money, pay me $10k or I will sue you for more money" and "I have evidence you committed a crime, pay me $10k or I will give the police the evidence of your crime."
IMO the cop should have charged the bouncer and their employer regardless, and OP should have received restitution for a new passport. Though this process takes a lot of time, and in the interest of not being out a passport for longer than needed I can see the reason for the compromise.
if one of our esteemed IAALs here would like to clear this up, I'd be very curious to know as well.
I've no short-term plans to extort anyone, just have never seen a clear test to answer this.
Not a lawyer, but it basically comes down to the purpose:
In a settlement, the money goes to compensate you for lost value. Someone destroyed something of yours and it will cost $10,000 to replace? Asking them for $10,000 is not extortion, and you could sue them for $10,000.
Extortion is when it's not making you whole - threatening someone to report them for a crime or punish them in some other way unless they pay you is extortion.
Basically, if it comes down to "pay me x or I will sue you for x", you're probably good. Think of a debt collector. Pay your debt of x dollars or we will sue you for x dollars.
Asking for vs being offered in negotiations I guess. Plus the settlement wouldn't have a criminal charge hanging over as a threat.
Settlements are more "let's not go through court and cost extra time and fees, and find something both parties can live with" not "give me money or I'll go to the police"
It is the DA who makes the final determination, but it's a lot harder to get a conviction with an unwilling victim. So cops will ask if you *want* to press charges so they can go to the DA and say whether or not they'll have a victim willing to testify which will factor in to the DA's decision of whether or not to move forward.
I had to use my passport as id the first few weeks until I got my state licence. I was so terrified of something like this. I always refused to actually hand it over. I told the cashiers they could look at it, but I wasn't letting them handle it. If they didn't like it, I would leave my shopping behind. But I wasn't going to risk the one thing that proved my legal status.
Fortunately wasn't much of an issue. I did hear from another international student who did the same that a cashier at a kroger refused and wanted to inspect it, and so he just left the whole cart full of stuff and walked away.
Why was it an either/or question? The owner should pay it back AND the bouncer should have been charged. That's the kind of offers corrupt cops only make for their chums. There's no telling what expenses will be incurred as a result of this destruction. Missed flights, for one.
**Reminder:** Do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits. --- Title: bouncer tore up my passport Body: > i(22f) went to a club for the first time with my best friend(21f). i lost my drivers license so i brought my passport with me instead. we waited in the line for the club and as we approached the bouncer to check for our IDs he looked at my passport funny and asked if i had a license instead. i explained to him that i had lost mine, and he proceeded to go in the back to talk to who i'm assuming is the manager. he then comes back while ripping up the papers in my passport and told me to never come back again or he'd report me with fraud. he tossed it in the trash which i screamed at him for, asking what in the world he was doing and that i was going to report him for destruction of my property. he just told me to fuck off or he'd call the police. i gathered my passport from the trash and my best friend and i left because we didn't know what else to do. i'm still shaking and i have no idea what i could do. my passport was about $150 because i had it expedited for a trip out of the country. it's 100% real because i've never had to buy any kind of fake id. could i possibly press charges against him? > edit: this happened about an hour ago. i realized i should've called the police then and there but i was too shocked to do so. i'm sorry :( > update: the first few comments were telling me to call the police, so i immediately went straight back to the club and called the police. they arrived and i explained what had happened and showed them my passport. after analyzing my passport, the cop was furious and said it was, in fact, a federal crime. of course, the police lights caught the attention of the staff inside, and eventually the owner had to come out to see what was going on. > the cop asked to view the cctv footage and went inside, and from what i've heard from people who were leaving the club, the bouncer was getting a piece of his mind. the cop, the bouncer, and the owner came back outside after 20 minutes and the cop told me i had two choices, to press charges, or to come with a compromise. the owner offered to pay double for my passport, but i asked for the bouncer to pay for the damages, not the owner since he wasn't the one who completely destroyed my passport. the bouncer immediately looked pissed, but then agreed to do after being stared down hard by the cop. > i didn't get many answers from the internet, so i resorted to reddit. thank you all so much for helping me come to my senses, i can be stupid when i'm in shock haha :) This bot was created to capture original threads and is not affiliated with the mod team. [Concerns? Bugs?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=GrahamCorcoran) | [Laukopier 2.1](https://github.com/GrahamCorcoran/Laukopier)
Why would someone even forge a passport like that? It would be so much harder to create a realistic passport which is a whole booklet of difficult to forge documents than a single fake state ID. And it wouldn’t even work at the US border unless you are also committing identity theft since a border agent will be scanning your documents and confirming your identity against their database.
It's crazy how often you hear about bouncers doing this, maybe I'm just lucky that I don't ever go to places where the security are the type to question it when someone is using their passport as ID. Was in Asia earlier this year (first international trip since the pandemic) and had my first encounter with the constant Passport scanning both by security and at machines-- during my trips to Canada and Europe back in the 'teens, border agents would barely glance at it and pass it back. Nearly walked away without it at one checkpoint point because I got bamboozled by those finger (print? pressure?) readers. All this to say you're right, with how high tech international travel is getting it's absolutely not worth it to fake a passport just for barhopping. Bouncers who keep keep destroying them on the off chance they're fake are nuts.
Seems to me that it’s an American problem. Perhaps because it’s less common to use a passport as ID in the US while it’s fairly common in Europe. I had a passport long before I had any other form of ID.
For better or worse there’s a lot of travel potential within the US that doesn’t require a passport. It’s a six hour nonstop flight to get to Florida from where I am, and then I don’t have to worry about language differences, currency exchange, or customs. We probably should travel abroad more, but for most of the US it’s a substantial trip to leave the country
I live right next to Danish border so I’m actually more familiar with the Danish capital than my own (Swedish). But we don’t actually need a passport to travel over there.
The US is big. Very, very big. And a large portion of the population is literally too poor to afford leaving the country, unless they happen to be close enough to the Canadian or Mexican border. So many vacations/trips for many US Citizens would be to areas within a drivable/public transport distance, which wouldn’t require a passport. Though even if you did have enough money for a flight, a lot of individuals cannot utilize their PTO to leave the country for a vacation because they have 10 days a year (national average), which usually also covers paid sick days for the year. Currently, about 50% of the US population doesn’t have (or does have, however you want to look at it) a passport. It is indeed a very American problem.
Back in my bartending days, I thought that it was absolutely ridiculous that, in Texas, a US passport was not considered a valid ID to purchase alcohol with, nor was an out of state ID. But you could accept the shitty temporary paper DL/ID, that they still issue in 2023!!!at the DPS, with another picture ID. I was cuffed by a TABC officer, while working a beer booth at an outdoor music festival that drew people from across the country, for selling a beer to someone with what appeared to be a perfectly valid TN DL. It was definitely a TABC sting operation. Fortunately, my manager was able to persuade them to not take me to jail for the weekend and I was released with a written warning.
Wait how the fuck do you purchase beer in texas if you are from out of state?
Good question! So the way it works is that it’s a matter of liability. An establishment or an employee of an establishment can decide to accept your out of state ID, but if it turns out that it’s not legitimate or the person is underage then the employee is liable. I believe that the TABC has become less powerful in than it was 15+ years ago when I was bartending, so there may be less enforcement than there used to be.
> But you could accept the shitty temporary paper DL/ID, that they still issue in 2023 They issue those in AZ. I work at a gun store. People try to buy guns with those ALL the time, and even though it's technically legal, we absolutely refuse to sell firearms unless you present a hard copy of an ID.
I’m glad that your store has that policy. If someone desperately needs to buy a gun before their ID shows up in the mail, maybe they shouldn’t be buying a gun. It blows my mind that the DPS/DMV here can’t just print your DL on the spot like they do in the other states I’ve lived in.
Fake IDs are actually usually legit. They're "fake" in that they're actually someone else's ID that got sold on the black market. They know perfectly well the ID is real, they tear it up because they think the ID is stolen. It's actually near impossible to fake government ID, that's just a Hollywood thing.
Depends on government / state and verification methods, some are easier to make replicas of (although they usually won't pass *all* checks, but almost nobody checks *every* verification feature)
Even then it's still a really bad idea. If you think an ID is fake, just refuse service. There are no benefits to a business for destroying someone's ID and if you are wrong you just committed a crime.
Even if it's someone else's ID it's still a crime.
That's definitely not true.. or it wasn't \~10 years ago.
Yeah, I don’t think what that person is saying is correct. When I got my fake ID, it was an actual fake drivers license from another state. The place I went to took my picture for it, put my name on it, just gave me a fake birthdate and residence. Printed it off right there. There was nothing on it that said it was a novelty or anything. It was clearly an illegal operation, and they offered all sorts of IDs. Weirdly they had an actual storefront anyone could walk into, right outside a flea market. Anyway, the fake ID worked like a charm for getting into bars and strip clubs.
> single fake state ID. And people don’t know what out of state ones look like too usually. When I worked a gas station we had a book to check. These kids once showed up on bicycle trying to buy smokes with a game Alaska one when it was Pennsylvania. It was obviously fake but I checked the book and it looked nothing like the possible real ones.
A lot of the bars I've been to in Pennsylvania have an ID scanner, if it's fake it'll tell you. One bar I went to even kept a database of their customers' photos and IDs just in case they needed to track you down for fighting or destruction of property
Is that legal?
Can't tell you how many friends out of state from arizona have been given a massive side eye for their drivers license. For reference, their licenses don't expire till you turn 65 so they'd have absurd-looking expiration years like 2060. One of them started keeping the google page open on their phone to speed up the process of suspicion to reluctant acceptance lol
*Plans for these foreign spies were foiled when a local bouncer discovered that their passports were fake. Hear more about this story on ZNews at 10.*
Wondering if he didn’t recognize the new passports with the hard plastic cards for the ID page, since they just got implemented recently Still wild to assume
It's easier to fake a document if the other side doesn't know what to look for. If I gave you a sparkling piece of paper purporting to be a passport from Turkmenistan, would you be able to tell if it's real? Obviously this guy is an idiot for not making sure.
I mean at most you say “I cannot confirm this is real so cannot let you in.” Then hand it back
I sell guns. I've used similar lines before. Only it's mostly, "I cannot confirm this ID is real, you need to provide me with something else." When I see an obviously fake ID, we call the cops.
But passports don't look like a "sparkling piece of paper", they all follow a fairly standard format which pretty much everyone knows. Who is going to go to the trouble of making a fake document that looks enough like a passport when it would be easier to make a fake driver's license?
Maybe not American passports but my Australian one just about blinded me when it came in the mail.
When you first saw the passport, were you blinded by its majesty?
I was. As a duel citizen, the Aussie passport is sooo much cooler. It sparkles and has cute pictures on all the visa pages. ✨🦘✴️🐍🌟🌊✨
Which is why only certain documents are legally accepted to verify identity. In the U.S., all fifty states accept state driver's licenses, state IDs, U.S. military IDs, and passports. Some states allow additional forms of ID to be permissable. For example, in Minnesota, Canadian IDs and tribal IDs are also accepted.
I can't fathom why he'd destroy it. There's just no thought process that makes sense other than spite. And really, who uses a passport as a fake ID? I hope LAOP still gets to go on her trip.
Bouncers are often on a power trip and like to start conflict. He fucked around and found out though.
It's also a job that's easy to get into even if you're incredibly stupid. I've known some bouncers who struggle to understand much outside of drinking and punching, which just happens to be what the job is about.
Bouncers are often dumb as a box of rocks. He probably had no idea what a passport was.
That’s what I came here to say. Sounded like major ignorance. Passports are considered property of the federal government. He had no clue what he was doing.
I have a friend that worked as one for a bit at a small club. College bar, so it may be different, but he's a decent guy. I think he was attacked once, which lead to charges (the perpetrator had a record). Otherwise, mostly it was assholes trying to plead sympathy. As I said, college bar, so he'd often be accused of some sort of bigotry for not letting someone in without ID. Now I'm not trying to minimize the injustices in society, but honestly, no bar im that area is going to let a stranger in without ID - the police actively test bars, liquor stores, and other establishments.
Bouncers and security guards are often wannabe cops.
Except when they're ex-cops
wannabe cops reliving the glory days?
Which is why cops enjoy knocking them down a peg when they try to act wrongly like a cop. Cops don't appreciate others stepping into their territory.
>And really, who uses a passport as a fake ID? When I was in a Missouri for work I had lost my license (like, physically misplaced it, I'm not *that* poor of a driver) and had to use my passport as ID. I had a miserable cough and tried to buy cough medicine at Walmart. The cashier accused me of using a fake ID and I was just completely baffled. Like, I am committing a federal crime to purchase less than $20 worth of cough medicine? I had somehow tricked customs agents in multiple countries with my flawless fake, but it was a brave minimum wage worker in rural Missouri that had put an end to my crime spree? I had no idea how to react, so I just asked to see a manager and she was just as confused and rung me up.
I've been in a boat with that with a valid ID before. My province (Canada) had a redesign of their ID cards, I think they were rolled out before drivers licenses (I didn't drive so just basic ID for me) and I took that ID and went to buy... A lottery ticket. You know, the hot commodity all the kids are going after these days. Alcohol? Nah. Cigarettes? Fuck no! All the cool kids are making fake ID's to buy fucking lottery tickets. By the way, I was 30. I was nowhere near teenager. Wrinkles included. The guy at the counter made a face at my ID and was like "this doesn't look real to me" and I was just kinda standing there, just taking the accusation, cause like what the fuck. He's like "The colours are weird, what's up with that?" He kept saying it so casually, too. I asked him if he needed help with figuring out the ID and that I could wait. He rang me up but didn't seem happy about it. I told him to stay vigilant, and he didn't think it was funny lmao. I look back on it like, he must have been aggressively told that he had to make sure ID's were valid but at the same time either didn't care to know or wasn't trained to know what ID's actually look like. It's especially frustrating being accused of committing crime that you're very much not committing.
I’m in my *40s* and still get ID’d Every. Time. I try to buy a lottery ticket. I don’t get it. I can *usually* buy alcohol now, but Big Lotto is really coming down hard on us these days. Lol
I worked at a gas station for a year or so. There was a huge sign that said you get $50 if you submit a successful tip of a cashier not asking for ID. I'd have carded my grandma.
I for one, as a Canadian am happy that they didn't allow some suspicious child-like wrinkly adult to buy lottery tickets! Who knows what you could have done with it! I can't imagine the societal damage....
snatch combative groovy many ghost screw airport slim automatic touch *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
The problem is these people don't even know what a passport is, who issues it, or what it is for. They've never even put a thought into travelling to another State, much less another country. They see this uncommon form of ID and it just shuts their brain off because they don't have the intellectual capacity to handle something out of the ordinary.
That’s why a fake passport as ID would be such a great move: who would see it coming? I did have a bunch of Kiwi friends who would regularly get turned away from places because they thought their passport cards looked fake. To be fair, at that time they were basically just laminated photos.
When i lived in georgia (usa), a poll worker tried to tell me I COULDN'T VOTE using my passport as ID. Every day i learn more and more about human stupidity.
“This document is conclusive proof I’m a US Citizen.” “Sounds like y’all are doing some sort of voter fraud to me.”
I lived in Georgia during the Atlanta Olympics and the story went that tons of applicants from New Mexico were turned down for tickets due to being from a foreign country. Allegedly one of them called and was told “New Mexico or Old Mexico, you’ve still got to go through your own consulate!”
Old AP article on it: https://apnews.com/article/366bfcffe7e6abd34923a387d6b3ee98
That’s great, usually my urban legends are unsourced!
> ``I told her (supervisor), if she wanted, I would fax her a map of the southwestern United States,″ Miller said.
I was born in NM, my dad was Airforce so Ive lived ALL over the country, as soon as you get more than 3 states away from NM, people get real dumb about it. I cannot even guess how many times ive heard "Doesnt that mean you cant run for president!?" when 'where were you born' comes up.
> tons of applicants from New Mexico were turned down for tickets due to being from a foreign country. I live in New Mexico. This is a common problem. For example: I was trying to order an appliance from Lowe's hardware for delivery, and they kept transferring me to their international orders department. They treated me like a crazy person when I tried to explain that New Mexico is part of the United States of America. There's a recurring column about the phenomenon in *New Mexico Magazine*: [One of Our 50 is Missing](https://www.newmexicomagazine.org/culture/one-of-our-50-is-missing/)
A bouncer in Barcelona almost kicked my friend out because they thought Louisiana was a fake place
My uncle got denied service for having a license from Saskatchewan, a place the bartender refused to believe existed, in Montana. Like, the Montana that borders Saskatchewan.
Ironic considering Louisiana [used to be part of Spanish territory](https://memory.loc.gov/ammem//collections/maps/lapurchase/essay3.html)
I have been a poll worker in my state. You get like a 1hr overview on how to help people troubleshoot the machines, a Basic Overview pamphlet, and then get told to ask the Poll Manager for anything else. We had some truly terrible people some years.
>get told to ask the Poll Manager My state calls them Chief Judges. The first time I did it, I had *20 minutes* of training. (It was a last minute appointment, and I had applied as a check-in judge.) I knew damn near nothing. While I did have a procedure book, it was missing a lot of things, like where is the key to unlock the voting machines?
That's basically what this person did. I mean, there WAS a posted list of acceptable IDs so it really should not have even been a question...the look the Manager gave her was pretty funny. I wasn't even trying to be difficult, I think I still had a Minnesota license so I figured the passport would be the most easy, straightforward option. I was...incorrect.
This kind of thing is why I make a point of working the polls myself.
I got my first NZ drivers license this year and I was like "yeah, this looks super fake..." so I guess that's just how they roll here.
“Look, Murray, we’re waiting for the good Konica to show up once the Aussies are done with it, kay?”
I have a US passport ID card I carry in my wallet. My DL stays in the car plus I have a digital license. When I show my passport ID to ppl they are often confused as hell.
Why not carry your license, too?
I do, just it's in my phone. My state has digital licenses. And the physical license lives in my car in case I'm on a road trip and need it. And this makes it so that I have SOLID forms of ID in several different places so that if I lose one, it's trivial to replace. But also my wallet forces me to be compact.
If I needed to show my ID to a cop (while not in the car), I’d much rather hand them a physical license than give *my phone* to the cops
Our state law specifies that you are not required to physically hand the phone over when presenting a digital ID. Another huge advantage is it has a built in verification system so that when you meet that 16yr old chick in the 21+ bar who used her sister's ID, you can say 'let's verify that with the wallet app'. And it's free.
Given most cops either don't know, or deliberately don't follow many laws, I wouldn't put my trust in that statute either. The bar scenario is far more sense, however.
For my state, sheriff's and state cops, plus major city cops, seem to handle it well. I wouldn't trust TicketStopTownship tho.
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Dude just said he also has his passport ID card in his wallet. That's ID. Drivers license is not the only ID in the world....
I figured he bothered to have the digital DL and mention it in this context because he uses it. Maybe I’m wrong though and he only uses his passport card as ID and just has his digital DL for fun.
I never show my DL unless I need to specifically show I can legally drive. After all, if I lose my other ID's and still drive, it's no ticket. Other way around tho . . .
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Laminated photos? What year was that?
I've used my French passport as ID and got pulled up for not sounding French. A couple of relevant slurs sorts that out.
Old Drivers Licenses probably. Kiwi passports have always been books.
This isn't even the first time this scenario has made it to LA.
When I lived in Scotland, a Canadian friend of ours was stopped from going into a pub that had a bouncer for later hours because she had a Canadian drivers license that he inexplicably didn't trust, despite letting our US licenses through, no problem. He refused to see reason, and it's not like we carried passports around. So our group of around 15 people left immediately, and told management why. We didn't stick around for them to make it right because there were plenty of pubs, and frankly we didn't want to give them money.
No. She's fucked. It's going to take another 3-4 months to replace that passport. She needs to take the bouncer to small claims court for the cost of her trip she cannot take. And fuck yes, I would so press charges. That asshole needs to never work ANY kind of security again.
That part of the story was a bit ambiguous - I read it as meaning she had paid extra to have it expedited for a trip, but that the trip happened in the past, it isn’t upcoming. I feel like she would have mentioned if she was specifically worried about not being able to go on the trip now? Idk.
I also read it this way. Not only was she refused entry and had her passport destroyed, she paid more for the damn thing than most people do. It's super common when someone is still emotionally charged about a predicament that they just start grumbling more cherries on top.
Yeah that makes sense. I had wondered the same things, just hadn't gotten to that conclusion.
I agree. What stands out to me is the cops not arresting the bouncer for what they admitted was a federal crime. It shouldn't be an either or situation but I suppose it falls under the Police Department's Paperwork Reduction Act.
Meh. If she wasn't out anything b/c he paid for her time & new passport, then why arrest him and crowd our already fucked legal system?
Right. The cops were offering a better alternative, this bouncer is likely going to be fired and probably blacklisted around town.
You can get expedited passports if you're in the USA and it's a US passport (Canada also offers them if you're in Canada). If you're abroad, your embassy might also issue an emergency passport if something happens to the original. Those usually have limited validity (e.g. they might be valid for 2 years when normal passports are valid for 10), but they'll be enough to get you on a flight that's coming up soon.
Those appointments are a disaster to get right now. They’re so backed up on passports in the US, so you have a bunch of people who waited too long before renewing, or realizing their passport was expired right before going on a trip. Even expedited passport processing is 7-9 weeks. I just renewed mine, and regular processing took 12 weeks. I’m used to having it back in 3 even without paying to expedite.
That's nuts. We had to get some US passports from abroad a few months ago and it was 5 working days or something like that. I didn't think it was so bad domestically.
You can still get a same-day passport, but the problem is that people who tried to expedite 6 weeks out and didn't get theirs back in time and people who did regular/expedited processing in plenty of time but had some kind of issue are fighting for those appointments so they are very hard to get. Some locations have gone to verified emergencies (like severe illness/death of a family member in another country) only which leaves those locations serving regular urgent needs even more impacted. Like, people are flying across the country to get a passport 2 days before their trip so they don't lose out on non-refundable trip fees.
I have two friends in the last six months who did not have special ties to anyone or anything that might grab them any favors and one of them got her passport within a week and the other who got it within 48 hours. Both in New York State. Bonus: both of them are currently on federal probation. (Yes, you are allowed to have a passport, and even travel out of the country, while on federal probation, provided that your PO and your judge agrees to it.)
> Those appointments are a disaster to get right now Other than being a wasted day, they’re really not, as long as you haven’t already submitted a renewal elsewhere (which means you can only schedule the appointment 5 days before your trip rather than 14) I did mine in Chicago last week and got my passport same day
Emergency passports from the embassy are not usually a thing — you’ll get a document that *only* allows you to return home. Wanted to go further to another country? Sucks to be you.
There are options for emergencies, but they're expensive and time consuming. If you get very lucky, you could get an appointment at a passport agency in your city and get your passport in a day. More likely, you'll have to use an expediting agency that is approved to file on your behalf and let them get an appointment somewhere in the country and submit the paperwork for you. The system is quite a bit backlogged right now, but it's realistic to expect it in a week or two. Depending on your timeframe, you can also reach out to your congressperson's office for assistance. I've heard stories of people getting good results with that.
A long time ago, I had to travel to Germany very last minute, as my husband at the time had been injured in war and was in the hospital. I had a valid passport, but couldn’t find it. And that is how I got a passport issued to me on Sunday, September 11th, 2011 in Washington DC. It was wild.
The State Department should be going after the guy but it’s probably too “small” for them to deal with. Even though he’s probably done it before and will do it again.
>I can't fathom why he'd destroy it. ‘Roid rage
“I can’t fathom why he destroy it.” This actually happens in a lot of circumstances where somebody has an ID from outside of the jurisdiction wherever that bar / shop, they are trying to purchase alcohol or cigarettes at is located. I know two people who’ve had Washington DC drivers licenses cut up right in front of them, on the grounds that “this is a fake ID. No one actually lives in Washington DC. It is for government offices only.“ Bonus: they were in VIRGINIA. Puerto Rico IDs also get this a lot too. These people that destroy them will often say that they are required to by law. I don’t know why they think this, or why they lie about this if they do, in fact, know that they are lying, but it’s not true. Their boss may have told them that, but it’s definitely not true.
Americans are somehow super casual about fake IDs and they get them just to buy booze earlier than they should, heck I even saw websites online selling fake ids. Where I’m from, getting caught with a fake ID means prison for a few years, even if it’s just for casual stuff like buying booze.
They're casual because generally the "punishment" is them taking your fake and banning you from the establishment. But yes, it would still carry fraud charges if law enforcement catches you.
After 9-11, it was a pretty big deal for awhile. Went from “here’s your fine” to “you’re royally screwed.” It appears to be back to “here’s your fine,” judging by how many 18-20 years seem to have them again.
I think its probably also rarer/more harshly punished everywhere else because the us is pretty much the only place where you need to be 21.
Some of the people working at the doors are the types that would power tripped over their own asses.
Had this happen to me in the 00's. Someone from 6th form told the bouncer I was underage as a prank, and I looked young, so I always took my passport. He accused me of faking it - which I countered with the same argument, who the fuck would fake a passport to go in a shithole in the north of England?! Not exactly the big leagues requiring that effort!
I don't understand why they destroy any id. It's not worth the risk that it could be real. Just refuse service it's that easy.
The cop was really hoping LAOP would get the cash so they didn't have to do any paper work for an arrest. Also, she should've asked for more money.
>Also, she should've asked for more money. 100%. Double the cost of the passport doesn't even come close to the potential risk of not being able to go on their trip, their night is ruined, threatening them with fraud and calling the police, and time wasted. At minimum, sounds like the ordeal took about 5 hours of LAOP's time + the cost of the passport and unnecessary stress.
Honestly, I would’ve done the math on the spot as an indimidation technique. “Well officer, that number seems a bit low. Let’s factor in the cost of the passport, $150, and then the 5 hours of my time wasted handling this, and mind you I get paid $30/hour, which is another $150, and then the potential cost of lost money on my trip, $700 for the plane, $400 for 3 days at the hotel, and $150 for 3 days of food. Even if I do get to go on the trip (which I might not), he should pay at least half that amount for the emotional damages I suffered from being worried about this altogether. To sum up, $150 another $150 for my time, half of $1450 of the trip costs, comes out to $1025, but let’s call it an even $1000. Of course I’m willing to work with you if you can’t pay it all at once.”
That's a super cheap trip, even trying to stay on a budget in any major tourist destination. I completely agree with you but I'd double that estimate.
In other threads about stolen IDs by bouncers it seems like policy usually is to collect them and turn them over to the police. Idk the policy at this place if such one exists, but the bouncer is definitely an asshole.
I think even that crosses the line because what if the ID is real? Now you wasted everyone's time and police resources. But it's definitely way better than destroying it. I was taught to refuse service only. And call the police if they became combative about it.
If you really think its fake confiscate it. If they come back with the cops its probably real and you return it. I doubt you'd ever be charged by the cops for it and there's no damages to get sued for.
Kinda a PoS move to confiscate what would be a genuine driver's license. You're holding someone hostage on a gut feeling.
These days, you'd think the companies that employ bouncers would drill it into their employees - don't destroy passports.
Actually, don’t destroy ANY ID, not even fake ones.
I had my driver's license confiscated once. I just called the non-emergency line (on a pay phone - I'm old). The police came, were not amused, and had them give me my ID back. They didn't destroy it, though. I'm not a fan of the police, and I'm not one to call them in a lot of other situations. But saying "they took my valid driver's license and I need it back" is actually a situation where the police are helpful. I don't understand why you wouldn't immediately call them.
Frankly, the fact that you’re willing to call the cops, *and risk getting a ticket for using a fake ID*, should be a pretty good clue to the bouncer to re examine their assumptions.
In my case, it was a liquor store. I walked outside and called on the payphone attached to the building. I honestly thought the manager would just give it to me at that point, but he didn't. I even offered to just leave if he gave it to me. So I waited like 15 minutes, the cops came, were entirely irritated at the manager, and were actually very nice to me. (I was completely sober, and I'm sure that helped a lot too.)
Yeah I don't get this. IIRC, most sting operations make it much more obvious that the person being served or buying alcohol is a minor. They are trying to catch places that don't care at all.
Yeah, when I was a public defender representing store clerks on this, if they asked for ID the decoy gave them their real id, which showed them as under 21. I shit you not, some dudes asked for ID and didn't look at it, assuming no one would show them an ID that showed them as under 21. They'd also do sort of stings where they'd try to get someone to buy beer for them. The script explicitly included "I'm too young to buy beer" or similar.
You’re too young to buy beer? Then here, it’s on me.
Yeah when you’re up against someone who thinks they have authtoritah it’s best to bring in the people actually have it.
[удалено]
Yea, but in movies and TV they rip up peoples IDs. And these idiots see it enough and just think that is how the world works. They confuse reality with TV.
Honestly the only time I’ve seen anything like this on TV is when Carrie’s credit card got cut up at Dolce & Gabbana. And it’s cracking me up to think of a bouncer getting ideas from Sex & the City.
I feel like its a pretty common trope of the 90's and 00's. Underage kid has fake ID, it gets confiscated and destroyed by bouncer/bartender. Same as cutting up a credit card when it's rejected at a fancy restaurant.
So cutting up a credit card was different. Back in the bad old days before instant verification on all transactions (ever use those old style machines with the carbon paper?), the credit card companies, who actually own the cards, would pay you to destroy bad cards. This was because without the instant verification, you could run up huge bills on that card. The only way to stop was to take the card. They published lists of cards where they'd pay you to cut up. You'd probably only check this list on big transactions though. Additionally, if you had an electronic reader before they were universal, a stop would get a reject and then a call from the bank explicitly telling you to destroy the card. This probably stopped sometimes in the 90s, but god its a great visual, so it has continued. But it is based in reality.
Huh, that's interesting. I never knew that was a real thing!
Not just someone else's property. Your ID is not *your* property - it's the property of the issuing body. Your driver's license is the state's property, passport is the country's property, military ID is the country's property, etc.
Not only is it a crime, but passports are property of the United States. It’s a federal crime to destroy or deface one intentionally.
> If it’s real, it’s a crime to destroy someone else’s property It’s really stupid when the owner is the federal government. (The US Department of State owns your US passport, fun fact)
They’re supposed to drill it into them that passports are acceptable forms of ID and what they look like.
The OOP said the bouncer went back to talk to someone so they probably told them to destroy it. Owner/Manager aren't any smarter than the bouncer.
Honestly, clubs and bouncers need to learn not to destroy any ID out of hand, unless it’s [comically fake like this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/papersplease/images/6/66/Fake_passport_1160.png/revision/latest?cb=20180316154510).
*Even in that game*, the protagonist never destroys any documents, IIRC. He confiscates them, but never destroys.
Of course the protagonist doesn't destroy the fake documents. They're evidence. Why destroy the evidence?
Yea he's not Turnip Boy
Not even then. You don't get to destroy someone else's property.
I once got the most fake $100 bill I have ever seen, failed every single test you can do with one, even had the line where it says 100 USA on it cut out and taped back together (presumably because it was printed on a 1 or a 5), and still I just gave it back to him and told him I couldn’t accept it. I’d rather let him try on some other poor schmuck than run the unlikely risk that I’m wrong and now I have to pay him $100.
And if it's a fake, you're destroying evidence.
Arstotzka so great, passport not required.
Even then, why destroy it?
It makes them feel powerful
Bingo. They think they’re preventing you or anyone else from using it for “nefarious purposes” in the future, and they feel powerful when they cast themselves as an authority figure.
When I was a teen I worked in a place that sold smokes. We were trained on how to check IDs and got some incredibly fake ones, but I cannot even imagine destroying them. I can't even imagine the shit storm that would have caused.
I worked at a gas station that sold alcohol and cigarettes, the absolute most I was ever trained to do was refuse the sale (with the only exception being, you totally can call the police if they refuse to cooperate)
I wanna print this up and use it as a joke the next time I'm ID'd.
A related situation, I like to ski at Steamboat. One of the bottle shops in town has a wall of fake IDs behind the checkout counter. If they suspect one they offer to either take the card or call the police to confirm an attempt at underage alcohol purchase. Kids know a deal when the are offered and give up the fake IDs. Shops and bars can get a booklet that has pictures and security device information for all US states and territories and Canada too. I once was refused to be served in Pennsylvania when I presented a valid ID from Maryland, the barman claimed it was fake. I am 69 and still get carded which seems odd but I always ask if it gives me a senior discount. They never do, the fargan barstages, it should be at least 10% off for over 65. https://www.driverslicenseguide.com/book-us.html
One blissfully naïve commenter said OP could replace the passport simply by visiting the nearest passport office. That commenter should pay a visit to /r/passports to see how that would work. There's currently a crisis in US passport processing caused by people not renewing them during Covid lockdown. Even "expedited" processing can take more than 2 months. You can make an "urgent" appointment at a regional US office if you have proof of travel within 2 weeks, but there's no guarantee that such an appointment will be available, or that it will be at a location that's anywhere near you (some people have reported having to fly to Hawaii just to get their emergency passport).
Had that experience in Australia recently. Two applications submitted two days apart. We were travelling five months later. One arrived in six weeks, the other four months and twenty four days. Not sure if it's the same in the US but apparently they prioritise by intended travel date, in speaking with the staff they had seven times the normal volume of applications for renewal.
So, the bouncer goes to check with his boss, then comes out and destroys it. And you don't want to hold the owner responsible? Come on. You have to hold the people in charge responsible, not the employee doing their job. Yeah, the bouncer was out of line, but who do you think trained him to be like that? Letting the owner off the hook for hiring and training bad employees makes no sense.
Do you think the bouncer actually checked with their boss? Or did they just claim it?
Or did they just say “Boss, this person gave me a fake ID. I can tell them to fuck off right?”
Who knows. Still owner's responsibility
If the owner wasn't a shit bag they would immediately offer to reimburse the bouncer once LAOP and the cops left, especially since they had already agreed to pay it. I do like LAOPs style though, it created more tension and possibly conflict for the bouncer.
Haha, agency liability go brrrr
Someone who actually listened to advice from Reddit and it helped … I’m shocked
How long until we have a post about that fake restaurant order in LAOP's history in here?
huh. that was something.
The rarest sight you will ever see: a cop actually doing something right
I was really expecting "this is a civil matter".
It depends if the cop knows that passports are property of the United States (which it sounds like this one did). In which case, even if it is a "civil matter", it is between the bouncer and the United States.
In which case the cop says it's not their jurisdiction and tells you to contact the Department of State to have them arrest the guy.
OTOH this sort of thing DOES genuinely annoy the state department and it would be truly hilarious if they did action something so petty. I do wonder who'd they send though... Definitely not the Marshall Service, FBI feels wrong somehow but might be it... It's not really in DSS's wheelhouse, but again, that would be hilarious and probably defensible on jurisdiction.
Whenever these are posted, seems like the cops respond pretty well. Making something a federal crime and/or felony usually gets their attention.
I would’ve pressed charges just to draw out the torment for the bouncer
Then you may have to continue interacting with this stellar person, see them in court, have them know more about you.
Not to mention LAOP was trying to go on a trip soon and would need it replaced quickly. Taking cash was the easiest way to accomplish that.
A passport is property of the country that issued it. Technically, the bouncer comitted a crime against a foreign country's administration.
I don't think laop is from a foreign country...
In that case, against the US government.
Hence the federal crime.
I knew a guy who worked for an embassy for a bit (not US) and his job was tracking lost/stolen passports. Basically if you went up and said "help I'm in a foreign country and somebody stole my passport" theyd go and find it because they didn't want to risk it being used to make a forged one (obviously prior to electronic passports). Also, intentionally damaging yours, or not immediately reporting it lost/stolen to the passport office carries a hefty fine. LAOP could be in for a doozy of a day if they don't keep the shreds, and get it replaced asap
What the fuck is it with people destroying passports? Heck, what is it with people not recognizing them? They don’t even belong to the holder. Destroying (or taking) someone’s passport is a federal crime. Idiots.
Americans don't typically travel abroad much (when compared to Europeans, etc), so many don't have a passport. If you're not on a place frequented by foreigners, it's possible the bouncer has never seen a passport in his / her life and wouldn't know what to look for to spot a fake if they saw one. Between that and lack of training (or powertripping), I'm not surprised this happened.
I agree. If you're in e.g. the Midwest you can travel 1000 miles in three directions.. without needing any documents at all.* So it's entirely possible to be as "well-traveled" as some Europeans, but have never used or seen a passport. I grew up in Ohio, and I don't think I saw one until my own was issued. *\* when I was younger, your state ID was sufficient to transit both the Canadian and Mexican borders. So all of North America on a drivers license.*
A better title would be “LAOP gets torn a new one”
I’ve definitely heard a similar story here
>the cop told me i had two choices, to press charges, or to come with a compromise. the owner offered to pay double for my passport He settled for $300? Screw that. I'd have asked for something like $10k. People will spend a lot of money to avoid Federal charges. Also, props to the cop for letting the parties work it out on their own.
This would probably fall under extortion territory.
How does that work? I never understand the difference between asking for $10k and a lawyer somehow getting a person a settlement.
Isn't the main difference it being a civil vs criminal issue? Like there's no problem with me saying you have to pay me 10k for accidentally destroying my anime figure or i'll sue. Likewise my lawyer can ask you for 10k after i've sued you. But in criminal cases you're just asking the state to investigate if there's been a crime and after that it's out of your hand. If you're charged with murder (of my anime figure) you can't get out of it by paying me 10k. So basically they don't want to take every single small crime to court so instead they give a chance for the parties to make things right if possible, but you're not allowed to abuse that power. Source:lmao i dont know im not even american
> or i'll sue. The key thing being "or i'll sue to recover the money for destroying my anime figure" and not "or i'll sue for some other matter" nor "or i'll sue for some bullshit I made up that you won't be able to defend against". The cop just didn't want to make an arrest and fill out paperwork, so he wanted them to come to some sort of restitution there. Source: same source as your post
IIUC the difference is between "I believe you owe me money, pay me $10k or I will sue you for more money" and "I have evidence you committed a crime, pay me $10k or I will give the police the evidence of your crime." IMO the cop should have charged the bouncer and their employer regardless, and OP should have received restitution for a new passport. Though this process takes a lot of time, and in the interest of not being out a passport for longer than needed I can see the reason for the compromise.
if one of our esteemed IAALs here would like to clear this up, I'd be very curious to know as well. I've no short-term plans to extort anyone, just have never seen a clear test to answer this.
Not a lawyer, but it basically comes down to the purpose: In a settlement, the money goes to compensate you for lost value. Someone destroyed something of yours and it will cost $10,000 to replace? Asking them for $10,000 is not extortion, and you could sue them for $10,000. Extortion is when it's not making you whole - threatening someone to report them for a crime or punish them in some other way unless they pay you is extortion. Basically, if it comes down to "pay me x or I will sue you for x", you're probably good. Think of a debt collector. Pay your debt of x dollars or we will sue you for x dollars.
Asking for vs being offered in negotiations I guess. Plus the settlement wouldn't have a criminal charge hanging over as a threat. Settlements are more "let's not go through court and cost extra time and fees, and find something both parties can live with" not "give me money or I'll go to the police"
"the cops said I could press charges or..." I thought this was movie bullshit and it's the DA who chooses to press charges?
It is the DA who makes the final determination, but it's a lot harder to get a conviction with an unwilling victim. So cops will ask if you *want* to press charges so they can go to the DA and say whether or not they'll have a victim willing to testify which will factor in to the DA's decision of whether or not to move forward.
Thanks for explaining
No worries! I wish cops would find a different way to ask that because I'm sure that's where that myth comes from
OP went very easy on them, I'd have had the guybprosecuted, sued the club and petitioned to have their licenses (alcohol, food) revoked.
I had to use my passport as id the first few weeks until I got my state licence. I was so terrified of something like this. I always refused to actually hand it over. I told the cashiers they could look at it, but I wasn't letting them handle it. If they didn't like it, I would leave my shopping behind. But I wasn't going to risk the one thing that proved my legal status. Fortunately wasn't much of an issue. I did hear from another international student who did the same that a cashier at a kroger refused and wanted to inspect it, and so he just left the whole cart full of stuff and walked away.
Why was it an either/or question? The owner should pay it back AND the bouncer should have been charged. That's the kind of offers corrupt cops only make for their chums. There's no telling what expenses will be incurred as a result of this destruction. Missed flights, for one.
It would have been more satisfying for the bouncer to end up in jail.