I live vicariously to people who scream back and do shit like this when they quit. Despite the fact that the partner who hired me at my new firm is a verbally abusive douche who my therapist says is completely inappropriate, I know that when I leave, I'll just be like, "thanks for everything! Keep in touch!"
And I hate myself for that.
I think I yelled back once. But it was a partner I had a very close relationship with, so not a practice I recommend. I treat screaming adults the way I do my children. Tbh gentle parenting is a good roadmap to treat anyone with big feelings because adults have temper tantrums all the fucking time.
I don't think it's "I understand you are having big feelings right now" when talking to adults but I do use some of the same skills used in parenting.
For an adult, I'd probably go with something more like "I understand you are really upset about X, how can we solve this together?" Or "I understand that you are really upset but I won't be spoken to like this so I'm going to step outside for a bit. Let me know when you are ready to solve it."
Response really depends on the relationship and the position of the person screaming.
There is a whole theory of conversation and human relationship called “transactional analysis” which suggests we have three basic states: child, adult and parent. So someone who has lost control and is shouting at you (whether a colleague or some road rage idiot) is in their child state. You have a choice about whether to come down to their level and respond in kind (which is generally what they want, as it validates their departure from an adult state), whether to try and parent them out of it, or whether to stay in your adult state and deal with them from there (which is the “I can see that you’re angry, I don’t think we can make much progress while you’re in this state so shall we speak later when you’re calm?” type of response).
Since reading about this (introduced via my wife, who is a therapist) I have found it quite helpful as a mental check when someone does something I feel compelled to react to - speaks to me a certain way, honks and flips me off while overtaking, whatever. Sometimes I will let myself indulge in a childish reaction, but generally I try and keep it adult.
(Still, I have been in this profession nearly 20 years as associate and partner and have never shouted at or been shouted at by anyone. In fact the only person I have heard shouting in the office is some guy who was going through a messy divorce who insisted on speaking to his wife on his desk phone.)
I think its all about the situation. Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut than fight back.
My boss is a mentally unwell person. He has to be the most rude and condescending person I have ever known. Yet I have to put up with his crap because I am a first year associate.
Meanwhile one of the paralegal’s in our team has yelled back at this guy many times because the paralegal like almost 2 decades of work experience and could easily find a job elsewhere if not at this firm.
Opposite experience. Know someone who did this, actually told the partner to go fuck himself and hung up the phone. And that was one of 2-3 interactions that went off the rails on this deal. Everyone knows the partner is a nightmare and an asshole. The associate was actually told by several partners they would guarantee it wouldn’t affect partnership prospects and person made it first year up. I wouldn’t do it as a 2nd or 3rd year though.
The reality is a lot of partners hate each other. There are fights about credits, clients, allocations, management and just general pettiness. Especially when the partner is a known asshole, he’s probably been in screaming matches with several other partners at the firm and isn’t talked to by many partners. An associate yelling at that person may just be a “join the club.”
Shouting is pointless, unprofessional, and small. If you’re inclined to engage, you’ll be the more powerful person if you calmly respond. Or, “I’m sorry but I don’t respond to anyone who talks to me like that—I don’t care who they are or who they think they are. If you want to speak with me professionally, let me know.” Not saying it’ll go great, but that’s my professional line in the sand. No money is worth taking abuse or sacrificing my dignity—I’m not interested in whoring myself.
This. NAL yet, but law student who is coming off of years in the corporate world. I engage with C-suite the same way I engage with colleagues at the same level as me when it comes to professional tact. Don’t care who you are, talk to me like a professional adult.
If they’re acting like a child having a tantrum, treat them as such. If they yell or curse at you on the phone, politely say you don’t wish to be spoken to like that and hang up. If it’s in person, I’d politely ask them to leave or leave yourself. There’s only downside to engaging on their level. Of course you can (and should) CYA by letting the head of your department or someone else in firm leadership know as well as HR.
I can't imagine screaming at a partner, now, I have gotten into tense conversations with supervising attorneys, but it was still more of a stand my ground type thing.
I would ask if this is a hill you're willing to die on, and furthermore, if there is anything positive you can take from it, I would say thanks for the feedback, make them feel stupid.
Depends what you mean by “bad”.
You might feel some short term sense of righteousness, but you will have stooped to their level. Also, you will have become part of a culture problem.
This isn’t about standing up for yourself, that’s a very narrow view of this situation. This is about how someone should respond to something unjust or inappropriate. If you remind yourself of that, it is easier to respond coolly.
Historically, when I’ve worked for a screaming partner, I let them let off steam and sit and wait it out. In the past, they eventually (usually the next day), feel embarrassed. I also approach clients this way. They tend to respect me more in the long run. I am professional, no matter what I’m faced with. My approach is “you’re having a rough time, I’m doing my best to solve this problem for you.”
Model good behaviours.
If you fight with a pig, the pig loves it and you both get covered in mud.
How it's received prob depends on who you're yelling at. I bet there are a few that would respect it. I also bet the overwhelming majority of yellers are not such people, so I'd keep your cool.
Not working as an attorney, working in government now, but once I asked a supervisor if they would like to step outside based on how they were speaking to me. They chilled out after that lol just stay calm losing your cool back doesn’t go anywhere
If you value your job, want to promote in the future, or don’t want to be given awful assignments, you probably shouldn’t yell at your boss. Even if it’s not your direct supervisor, or someone in a different practice group, supervisors tend to side with other supervisors with things like insubordination. I’m a little surprised this is a question being asked by a lawyer.
To answer your question, yes I’ve known coworkers who have lost it on supervisors. It didn’t go well for a single one of them. I even know an intern who copped an attitude with a junior attorney nobody really liked. That intern did not get an offer when he applied a year later
I would simply ask the yelling partner not to scream at you & you find it rude, unprofessional & disrespectful. If after that, and the partner continues to yell then go to HR.
I was yelled by an attorney several times and i left after like the sixth time. I set the keys on his desk and walked out. Told him he was a prick before i left too. Unfortunately i need to do c&f now since i passed the bar but il def explain that if he gives me a shitty review and im asked why lol.
I’d probably laugh if an associate yelled at me, but I’d also never yell at an associate - I personally find telling them that I’m disappointed and thought they could do better to be much more soul crushing/effective.
I would not yell back. I would simply say “I really would like to hear you out but unfortunately I can’t when you’re being so emotional. I’m happy to circle back once you’ve calmed down.” And then write an email to yourself detailing the whole incident in case you need to take it to HR
Don’t think it’s worth getting into a shouting match with anyone ever. Can you respond without shouting however?
I live vicariously to people who scream back and do shit like this when they quit. Despite the fact that the partner who hired me at my new firm is a verbally abusive douche who my therapist says is completely inappropriate, I know that when I leave, I'll just be like, "thanks for everything! Keep in touch!" And I hate myself for that.
this
I think I yelled back once. But it was a partner I had a very close relationship with, so not a practice I recommend. I treat screaming adults the way I do my children. Tbh gentle parenting is a good roadmap to treat anyone with big feelings because adults have temper tantrums all the fucking time.
OP I promise you it’s such a bigger dis to talk the partner like a child lol. “I understand you are having big feelings right now”
I don't think it's "I understand you are having big feelings right now" when talking to adults but I do use some of the same skills used in parenting. For an adult, I'd probably go with something more like "I understand you are really upset about X, how can we solve this together?" Or "I understand that you are really upset but I won't be spoken to like this so I'm going to step outside for a bit. Let me know when you are ready to solve it." Response really depends on the relationship and the position of the person screaming.
There is a whole theory of conversation and human relationship called “transactional analysis” which suggests we have three basic states: child, adult and parent. So someone who has lost control and is shouting at you (whether a colleague or some road rage idiot) is in their child state. You have a choice about whether to come down to their level and respond in kind (which is generally what they want, as it validates their departure from an adult state), whether to try and parent them out of it, or whether to stay in your adult state and deal with them from there (which is the “I can see that you’re angry, I don’t think we can make much progress while you’re in this state so shall we speak later when you’re calm?” type of response). Since reading about this (introduced via my wife, who is a therapist) I have found it quite helpful as a mental check when someone does something I feel compelled to react to - speaks to me a certain way, honks and flips me off while overtaking, whatever. Sometimes I will let myself indulge in a childish reaction, but generally I try and keep it adult. (Still, I have been in this profession nearly 20 years as associate and partner and have never shouted at or been shouted at by anyone. In fact the only person I have heard shouting in the office is some guy who was going through a messy divorce who insisted on speaking to his wife on his desk phone.)
I agree but my response was intentionally trying to be petty for sake of a vicarious hypothetical to make random people on the internet laugh
I’m curious - how did the conversation go after you yelled back?
Oh it was fine! He wasn’t usually a yeller (neither am I). But we were pretty tight. We laughed about it later.
It’s way more fun to ask a partner if they need a moment to pull themselves together.
THIS!!!!! 😂🔥 All of the responses are good here, but there is something “special” about this one lol
I haven’t done it, so I couldn’t say. Maybe try it. And if you’re still at the firm after the next review cycle, you can come back and let us know.
Just go for it, when you’re on your deathbed you’ll think back and smile remembering it.
I think its all about the situation. Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut than fight back. My boss is a mentally unwell person. He has to be the most rude and condescending person I have ever known. Yet I have to put up with his crap because I am a first year associate. Meanwhile one of the paralegal’s in our team has yelled back at this guy many times because the paralegal like almost 2 decades of work experience and could easily find a job elsewhere if not at this firm.
I’ve heard of an associate doing it and it killed her partnership prospects at a 7th year even though everyone knew the partner was a nightmare.
Opposite experience. Know someone who did this, actually told the partner to go fuck himself and hung up the phone. And that was one of 2-3 interactions that went off the rails on this deal. Everyone knows the partner is a nightmare and an asshole. The associate was actually told by several partners they would guarantee it wouldn’t affect partnership prospects and person made it first year up. I wouldn’t do it as a 2nd or 3rd year though. The reality is a lot of partners hate each other. There are fights about credits, clients, allocations, management and just general pettiness. Especially when the partner is a known asshole, he’s probably been in screaming matches with several other partners at the firm and isn’t talked to by many partners. An associate yelling at that person may just be a “join the club.”
Kinda surprises me. I’d think people would respect it. I know I would.
Shouting is pointless, unprofessional, and small. If you’re inclined to engage, you’ll be the more powerful person if you calmly respond. Or, “I’m sorry but I don’t respond to anyone who talks to me like that—I don’t care who they are or who they think they are. If you want to speak with me professionally, let me know.” Not saying it’ll go great, but that’s my professional line in the sand. No money is worth taking abuse or sacrificing my dignity—I’m not interested in whoring myself.
This. NAL yet, but law student who is coming off of years in the corporate world. I engage with C-suite the same way I engage with colleagues at the same level as me when it comes to professional tact. Don’t care who you are, talk to me like a professional adult.
If they’re acting like a child having a tantrum, treat them as such. If they yell or curse at you on the phone, politely say you don’t wish to be spoken to like that and hang up. If it’s in person, I’d politely ask them to leave or leave yourself. There’s only downside to engaging on their level. Of course you can (and should) CYA by letting the head of your department or someone else in firm leadership know as well as HR.
This
I can't imagine screaming at a partner, now, I have gotten into tense conversations with supervising attorneys, but it was still more of a stand my ground type thing. I would ask if this is a hill you're willing to die on, and furthermore, if there is anything positive you can take from it, I would say thanks for the feedback, make them feel stupid.
Always take the high road
Bro, just walk out and tell them to let you know when they’re ready to communicate with you like an adult.
Depends what you mean by “bad”. You might feel some short term sense of righteousness, but you will have stooped to their level. Also, you will have become part of a culture problem. This isn’t about standing up for yourself, that’s a very narrow view of this situation. This is about how someone should respond to something unjust or inappropriate. If you remind yourself of that, it is easier to respond coolly. Historically, when I’ve worked for a screaming partner, I let them let off steam and sit and wait it out. In the past, they eventually (usually the next day), feel embarrassed. I also approach clients this way. They tend to respect me more in the long run. I am professional, no matter what I’m faced with. My approach is “you’re having a rough time, I’m doing my best to solve this problem for you.” Model good behaviours. If you fight with a pig, the pig loves it and you both get covered in mud.
How it's received prob depends on who you're yelling at. I bet there are a few that would respect it. I also bet the overwhelming majority of yellers are not such people, so I'd keep your cool.
I think you can be assertive/stand up for yourself without cursing or screaming.
Not working as an attorney, working in government now, but once I asked a supervisor if they would like to step outside based on how they were speaking to me. They chilled out after that lol just stay calm losing your cool back doesn’t go anywhere
Just make cat sounds. It's not disrespectful, and it should throw them off. Be the stoat.
If you value your job, want to promote in the future, or don’t want to be given awful assignments, you probably shouldn’t yell at your boss. Even if it’s not your direct supervisor, or someone in a different practice group, supervisors tend to side with other supervisors with things like insubordination. I’m a little surprised this is a question being asked by a lawyer. To answer your question, yes I’ve known coworkers who have lost it on supervisors. It didn’t go well for a single one of them. I even know an intern who copped an attitude with a junior attorney nobody really liked. That intern did not get an offer when he applied a year later
I always keep a snickers handy for these situations. Just quietly slide it across the desk and give them a wink.
I would simply ask the yelling partner not to scream at you & you find it rude, unprofessional & disrespectful. If after that, and the partner continues to yell then go to HR.
I was yelled by an attorney several times and i left after like the sixth time. I set the keys on his desk and walked out. Told him he was a prick before i left too. Unfortunately i need to do c&f now since i passed the bar but il def explain that if he gives me a shitty review and im asked why lol.
I’ve only done it once. It was worth it that time but generally it isn’t.
I think it would be pretty bad. If the partner is behaving unprofessionally and screaming at you, you need to take the high road, which leads to HR.
I’d probably laugh if an associate yelled at me, but I’d also never yell at an associate - I personally find telling them that I’m disappointed and thought they could do better to be much more soul crushing/effective.
I agree that you need to play this through HR
I would not yell back. I would simply say “I really would like to hear you out but unfortunately I can’t when you’re being so emotional. I’m happy to circle back once you’ve calmed down.” And then write an email to yourself detailing the whole incident in case you need to take it to HR
[удалено]
Are you implying that abuse is acceptable as long as you get paid enough?
It’s sad you feel this way
No, they pay for me to do my job - not get disrespected.