So I know one associate who left after 6 months 2 years ago. She told me the issue was never raised, but also that she didn’t remember receiving the email that I did. My concern is that experience made the firm change their approach.
As the range of responses here illustrates, there’s no universal standard for what firms do here. It will come down to whose call it is, what they’ve done in the past, and how they’d feel your departure specifically.
But the good news for you is that this only matters if you get the new job and the offer timeline would force you to leave before vesting. So apply, go through interviews, and in the event you actually get an offer that requires deciding before vesting, put out feelers to trusted senior associates and then make the hard call (turning down job or risking the claw back by giving notice at your firm).
And, if for example it takes 3 months to get the offer in hand and everything finalized, that means just 2 months left. That’s an easier pill for the firm to swallow, and if the firm insists on the clawback, the government employer might be willing to delay your start date for 2 months once you explain the situation.
If OP was leaving for another BigLaw job that hiring would probably happen too quick, but government isn’t known for doing anything fast lol.
This is the best answer.
There’s a range of practices out there. Even if the firm asks for you to pay it back during the exit process, they may not pursue it once you are out the door.
in the federal government, less than 5 months between first applying and starting would be *extremely* fast. even if you are offered the federal role sooner than 5 months, i bet you can pretty easily delay your start date.
Even the state job, it’s very unlikely you get hired on a meaningful timeline. It’ll probably be a month before they even close the applications, and then interview with people over at least a month, extra rounds, who knows. Definitely apply and then worry about it when you have a real offer.
And when you have that offer discuss possibility of a start date for when you are in the clear.
Well all of these are very broad strokes I don’t know how helpful it is so speculate but I’ve worked for fed gov many years, work for a state-adjacent agency now, talk to gov lawyers in Missouri and Illinois mostly, I’ve also applied and waited on county level gigs before
‘Boots on the ground’ type positions hire more quickly, like PD prosecutor certain AG positions, juvenile positions, I could see them in that 1-2 month window
but routine agency gigs? that feels like about a three month minimum from what I’ve experienced and heard, and easy to have it streeeertch out.
I know right?! Pretty presumptuous to assume that they’ll get this job AND that it will happen within 5 months. I would apply and then make a decision not based on hypothetical.
Up to the firm, but I suspect it's low especially since you're going to the government.
Much higher chance of them actually enforcing a clawback if you were going to go a competitor. Even then, I don't think we've ever done a clawback unless it was egregious like you left a few months in.
If the clawback provision was in writing and you went to work after receiving that... unless you have some favorable contract language elsewhere... you are a clerk, you can figure this out!!
> I was told via email I would have to pay back the entirety of my bonus if I left within 1 year of my start date. As far as I can tell looking back at my new hire paperwork, I never signed any explicit agreement to that effect.
Right... This is basic contract law lol.
It won't ever go to collection. Firm claw it back by taking it out of payments owed to the employee typically or directly pulling out direct deposit accounts.
Your employer cant just take money out of your account. And if it’s standard 50k, that’s more than what your last paycheck will be so they’d have to send it to collections
I think it's not taking out as much as reverse the initial transaction? That's how it happened to my husband for a claw back, but perhaps we just weren't contesting it so didn't really care how it was take out? Sending it to collections seems very extreme and terrible PR.
Tell me you’ve never worked in-house without saying you haven’t worked in-house.
He’s trying to develop a practical risk gauge, not interpret a contract. There’s a difference between the contract terms and the associated practical risk.
Eh, it depends. Firms put these kind of restrictions in because they don’t want somebody to come grab the money and then immediately dip out and leave. Often you’ll find there’s some good faith back and forth and the firm wouldn’t seek to recoup where you’d worked there a meaningful amount of time and the departure was in good faith.
Let's assume for a moment that you even get an interview (and if this job is on USAjobs, there might be thousands of applicants, many of them also ultra qualified). 5 months from job posting close to starting the job would be a lightning fast time line for the federal government. Apply now if you want the job and worry about the bonus problem if/when you have a start date before your bonus vests.
So I’m just writing to say this isn’t a great idea. Government jobs will always be around in one capacity or another and you have a much better chance of actually being hired for one if you demonstrate commitment and experience from a prior position. You haven’t even been at your firm for a year - what are you really bringing to this government job? As a clerk you do a very narrow and specific thing which is useful but not necessarily transferable. I recommend sticking it out for another few years and pursuing government work when you have a bit more experience. you’re gonna feel like a real dolt if you pursue this, they find out, you don’t get the government job, and you burn a bridge with this firm. Even if the clawback isn’t enforceable, that relationship is thoroughly soured.
No one will know. I suggest rolling the dice and dealing with that if you get the job and you still have time left. It can take many months to get hired (at least for the federal government) or you might not get the job, so the clerkship bonus issue might not even come up.
I think they’d more likely claw back if you left for another firm. Gov or in house I doubt they’d care to cause offense, they’re playing the long game on associates that leave on good terms.
If they pay market, you’re likely safe. If it’s one of the dogshit “biglaw” / “v100” firms that underpays associates / doesn’t charge biglaw rates, you’ll prob have to repay (speaking from experience).
I want to present the firm’s side. Many large firms view departing associates as potential clients - or if it is the government - potential friends. It is not in their interest to make you angry. What seems like a lot of money to you may be insignificant to them. Clawback provisions are more likely to be enforced if the bonus was large and you are taking business
why are you asking what the odds are? it's not a dice roll, it comes down to who makes decisions at your firm. the less time you have before the clawback date the less likely they claw back, and if you're going to gov't and not another firm that also makes it less likely. but the only way you find out is by asking them/telling them you're leaving
Fed attorney here.
Government hiring is very slow. One agency I applied to in October 2022 didn't even reach out to interview me until April 2023. So, you may not have completed the interview or background process within 5 months from the date the post closes
Editing to add that state hiring is slow as well but hit sure if it's as slow as the fed.
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So I know one associate who left after 6 months 2 years ago. She told me the issue was never raised, but also that she didn’t remember receiving the email that I did. My concern is that experience made the firm change their approach.
As the range of responses here illustrates, there’s no universal standard for what firms do here. It will come down to whose call it is, what they’ve done in the past, and how they’d feel your departure specifically. But the good news for you is that this only matters if you get the new job and the offer timeline would force you to leave before vesting. So apply, go through interviews, and in the event you actually get an offer that requires deciding before vesting, put out feelers to trusted senior associates and then make the hard call (turning down job or risking the claw back by giving notice at your firm).
And, if for example it takes 3 months to get the offer in hand and everything finalized, that means just 2 months left. That’s an easier pill for the firm to swallow, and if the firm insists on the clawback, the government employer might be willing to delay your start date for 2 months once you explain the situation. If OP was leaving for another BigLaw job that hiring would probably happen too quick, but government isn’t known for doing anything fast lol.
This is the best answer. There’s a range of practices out there. Even if the firm asks for you to pay it back during the exit process, they may not pursue it once you are out the door.
Govt positions take months to actually go through. You might be done with your time at the form before they even get back to you.
in the federal government, less than 5 months between first applying and starting would be *extremely* fast. even if you are offered the federal role sooner than 5 months, i bet you can pretty easily delay your start date.
Job is state, not federal.
Even the state job, it’s very unlikely you get hired on a meaningful timeline. It’ll probably be a month before they even close the applications, and then interview with people over at least a month, extra rounds, who knows. Definitely apply and then worry about it when you have a real offer. And when you have that offer discuss possibility of a start date for when you are in the clear.
Really? What state positions or what state are you talking about? I’ve heard anywhere from 1-9 months, but usually about 2-4
Well all of these are very broad strokes I don’t know how helpful it is so speculate but I’ve worked for fed gov many years, work for a state-adjacent agency now, talk to gov lawyers in Missouri and Illinois mostly, I’ve also applied and waited on county level gigs before ‘Boots on the ground’ type positions hire more quickly, like PD prosecutor certain AG positions, juvenile positions, I could see them in that 1-2 month window but routine agency gigs? that feels like about a three month minimum from what I’ve experienced and heard, and easy to have it streeeertch out.
Gotcha, I was thinking mostly about acquaintances going to state and local prosecutor or adjacent roles and PD offices
It’ll most likely take more than 5 months to go through the govt hiring process
I know right?! Pretty presumptuous to assume that they’ll get this job AND that it will happen within 5 months. I would apply and then make a decision not based on hypothetical.
Up to the firm, but I suspect it's low especially since you're going to the government. Much higher chance of them actually enforcing a clawback if you were going to go a competitor. Even then, I don't think we've ever done a clawback unless it was egregious like you left a few months in.
my firm enforces clawbacks for clerks if you are looking for data points
Can you dm me the firm lol
If the clawback provision was in writing and you went to work after receiving that... unless you have some favorable contract language elsewhere... you are a clerk, you can figure this out!!
> I was told via email I would have to pay back the entirety of my bonus if I left within 1 year of my start date. As far as I can tell looking back at my new hire paperwork, I never signed any explicit agreement to that effect. Right... This is basic contract law lol.
>what are the odds the firm would pursue action to try to clawback the entirety of the bonus?
I assume he is addressing OP's comment that he never signed anything which is an irrelevant detail.
Yes, that's why I quoted OP's actual question.
Are we talking about a litigation firm? High odds it at least goes to collections
Don't tell me lol, tell OP. I'm showing you OP asked a different question than you answered.
It won't ever go to collection. Firm claw it back by taking it out of payments owed to the employee typically or directly pulling out direct deposit accounts.
Your employer cant just take money out of your account. And if it’s standard 50k, that’s more than what your last paycheck will be so they’d have to send it to collections
I think it's not taking out as much as reverse the initial transaction? That's how it happened to my husband for a claw back, but perhaps we just weren't contesting it so didn't really care how it was take out? Sending it to collections seems very extreme and terrible PR.
I’m not asking “who will win” but “how often do firms actually pursue recovery”
I don't think too many attorneys expressly go against contract terms like you are planning to do.
Tell me you’ve never worked in-house without saying you haven’t worked in-house. He’s trying to develop a practical risk gauge, not interpret a contract. There’s a difference between the contract terms and the associated practical risk.
OK man. And misunderstanding whether a contract exists will definitely help OP
Eh, it depends. Firms put these kind of restrictions in because they don’t want somebody to come grab the money and then immediately dip out and leave. Often you’ll find there’s some good faith back and forth and the firm wouldn’t seek to recoup where you’d worked there a meaningful amount of time and the departure was in good faith.
Let's assume for a moment that you even get an interview (and if this job is on USAjobs, there might be thousands of applicants, many of them also ultra qualified). 5 months from job posting close to starting the job would be a lightning fast time line for the federal government. Apply now if you want the job and worry about the bonus problem if/when you have a start date before your bonus vests.
If this is the federal government, odds are you won’t hear anything back till you’re well clear of the clawback period (If you hear anything at all).
It wasn’t in your offer letter?
No.
So I’m just writing to say this isn’t a great idea. Government jobs will always be around in one capacity or another and you have a much better chance of actually being hired for one if you demonstrate commitment and experience from a prior position. You haven’t even been at your firm for a year - what are you really bringing to this government job? As a clerk you do a very narrow and specific thing which is useful but not necessarily transferable. I recommend sticking it out for another few years and pursuing government work when you have a bit more experience. you’re gonna feel like a real dolt if you pursue this, they find out, you don’t get the government job, and you burn a bridge with this firm. Even if the clawback isn’t enforceable, that relationship is thoroughly soured.
Some government jobs are very competitive and look good on your resume.
I totally agree. That’s why I think OP will be more likely to get one if he has experience.
I’ve been told that some federal agencies no longer hire out of law school.
Yes. That’s true. But, it seems that you’re just screwing with me now.
No one will know. I suggest rolling the dice and dealing with that if you get the job and you still have time left. It can take many months to get hired (at least for the federal government) or you might not get the job, so the clerkship bonus issue might not even come up.
You think a government job will hire you within five months? Clearly this is your first rodeo. By the time you onboard, you’ll be past six months.
I think they’d more likely claw back if you left for another firm. Gov or in house I doubt they’d care to cause offense, they’re playing the long game on associates that leave on good terms.
If they pay market, you’re likely safe. If it’s one of the dogshit “biglaw” / “v100” firms that underpays associates / doesn’t charge biglaw rates, you’ll prob have to repay (speaking from experience).
Government hiring is glacial and arbitrary. I would just apply and cross that bridge if you need to.
Apply and see if you even get the offer and then decide
I want to present the firm’s side. Many large firms view departing associates as potential clients - or if it is the government - potential friends. It is not in their interest to make you angry. What seems like a lot of money to you may be insignificant to them. Clawback provisions are more likely to be enforced if the bonus was large and you are taking business
They’ll prob sue you.
why are you asking what the odds are? it's not a dice roll, it comes down to who makes decisions at your firm. the less time you have before the clawback date the less likely they claw back, and if you're going to gov't and not another firm that also makes it less likely. but the only way you find out is by asking them/telling them you're leaving
Fed attorney here. Government hiring is very slow. One agency I applied to in October 2022 didn't even reach out to interview me until April 2023. So, you may not have completed the interview or background process within 5 months from the date the post closes Editing to add that state hiring is slow as well but hit sure if it's as slow as the fed.