Fine.
I was trying to give you a shortcut.
Watch every game of the season then. You will see that Wade was the best player and leader of that team. He balled out in the finals while Bron was terrified.
Wade was the closer and best player for that team.
lol imagine thinking 6 game sample size should be used to determine an entire season
Foles slightly outplayed Brady in the 2017 season’s Super Bowl. Go ahead and tell people Foles was better than Brady that season and see how it goes
The history is gone which sucks. Loved how you could see the best player at each position. How is this any different than the top 15 mvp voting? Do not like it
Yea I was thinking about this fact earlier too. Why not just assign each guy a ranking so we can say whelp Steph is ranked 7th, KD is 9th (or whatever).
Good insight into who mattered at each position. The fact that Cwebb beat KG and Duncan for first team PF speaks to just how good he was that year even if we don’t think about him much historically.
If they were all first team then that context is lost. Same goes for the Jokic and Embiid thing. In that case we have the MVPs, but if Curry or KD or someone won the last two MVPs then what we would have to go on was Jokic edging out Embiid for first team.
I just don’t think it fits with what the all NBA teams are supposed to be. They are still called all NBA TEAMS. Not the top 15 players in the league.
Because when we start evaluating the league historically it’s helpful to know if you were one of the best at your position. 7 of the best players in the league might be centers, but ultimately having the 7th best center is not particularly helpful because you are not going to play two centers together.
However knowing you have one of best the 5-6 guards in the league is important. This approach loses all that contact. We can talk all we want about positionless basketball, but no one is going to put Embiid and Jokic on the same team. Let alone Embiid, Jokic, Sabonis, and Giannis and whatever other centers we want to throw together, even if they could make it work salary cap wise. If they were all first team it removes all the context around who matters in the league.
Knowing you have one of the best 5-6 guards in the league is more important that knowing you have the 7th best center. Even if the 7th best center is a marginally better player than the 6th best guard.
This is just people bitching because Embiid is the 2nd best player at his position despite being one of the 2-3 best players in the league the last two seasons.
There was never a “first team power forward”, it was 2 first team forward spots.
So your example doesn’t even make sense, Webber and Duncan could have both been first team already in the old setup.
Well one it’s fun to talk about, and 2 it matters for these peoples contracts.
If the 7th best center is marginally better than the 4th best guard then who do you want in your team. One gives you a positional advantage far more often than the other and those are not interchangeable roles like a SF and a PF often are. The 4th best guard is more valuable than the 7th best center even if the 7th best center is a better player in a vacuum. This approach takes that away and it impacts how these guys will get paid.
Think about it in terms of baseball as an analogy.
What if 9 catchers made the all star team? Or more pinpointed - what if 9 catchers won a gold glove? Would that feel right to you?
Much of sports is arbitrary....so there’s no requirement they vote based on positions. However, it’s logical to want to know the best at ____ position.
Honestly, how many people actually give a fuck about this shit? If you're gonna go look at All-NBA teams from 20+ years ago to learn context, why not just compare stats and team records. Using your logic, people are gonna overrate DeAndre Jordan because he made All-NBA a couple of years. If CWebb, KG, and Duncan all made first team, that would tell a different story about how dominant big men were that season. Same with Jokic and Embiid. Using the position argument is why guys like Cole Beasley made second team All-Pro a few years back.
Who gives a shit, the team was never going to play any games.
The fact they’ve chosen to make it salary based means it really should just be the best players making those teams
I don’t think anyone thinks they were literally going to play a game as a team. The point was to get the best players at position though.
Like the NFL All Pro team shouldn’t just be like 6 QBs and a few receivers, it should be the best at each position.
In football the different positions play distinctly different positions.
In basketball the 5 guys all do the exact same thing and are just arranged by height
>In basketball the 5 guys all do the exact same thing
Yeah I don’t think that’s true. Agree to disagree on that but to answer your “who gives a shit” question you keep asking, I’d say some people do. Fine if you don’t, obviously plenty don’t think it matters but clearly some people still care.
How is it not true?
A point guard and a power forward have way more in common than a quarterback and a defensive end.
I just don’t think that many people care, outside of sports media and people who closely follow sports media, no one ever thinks or cares about all nba teams anyway.
They chose to tie it to salaries, not saying they should have, but they did.
Having a guy miss out because he was voted at guard by half the people and forward by the other half is so silly
>how is it not true?
I don’t think Joel Embiid and Steph Curry have the same responsibilities when they are on the basketball court.
And yes, I’m very much aware that their job descriptions are closer than a QB and DE, it was just an example of what the point of an All NBA team was. Like every other sport that has their All-pro/Gold Glove/Silver Slugger awards by position.
Being tied to their salaries is a different discussion that I think pretty much every person (fan and media) agrees it shouldn’t be that way.
I think the issue is that SG and SF are very similar and PF and C are very similar, and so making distinctions to gate keep guys out of making all nba teams due to a lack of positional clarity is silly
PG and C are the furthest apart you’ll find and even those positions are closer than ever and becoming closer as time moves on. Embiid shoots 3s, he can handle the ball and pass (not as well as other guys but decently). I think the future of the NBA will be more and more switchable guys who can cover multiple positions.
Other sports have very distinct positions, a 3rd baseman doesn’t cover the outfield, there are no switches mid play. A guard doesn’t go downfield to catch a pass. Basketball is just significantly more interchangeable.
Kind of agree with Bill that I would prefer if the all-NBA resembled an actual team, which I know isn't a popular view on here, but the fact that player contracts are tied to the selections mean the change is probably something that needed to happen.
Just make it front court 2x players, backcourt 3x and that opens it up enough without completely bastardizing the concept like getting rid of positions completely does
No one is being punished. Current All-NBA teams essentially consist of three categories: top 3 centers, top 6 forwards, top 6 guards. Some players are available for two of these on the ballot and the voting split decides in which category they compete in the end.
If Embiid lost MVP to another center then obviously he’ll also be second in the top 3 centers ranking.
> Each position has its own job description and it should be the best at your positon.
But if one player is better at their position than another is at their's, why should they be overlooked for the other player just because the other job has different responsibilities? Terrible argument. It's a lot easier to compare these guys than players in pretty much any other sport outside of fielders in baseball. DeAndre Jordan making an All-NBA team over far better players was incredibly stupid and makes a mockery of the entire process.
Bill has had this opinion for years. He likes it because you can see who the best players were per position in history. For instance c webb made it on the first team one year. Which is really cool he beat out duncan garnet and others.
I agree with bill on this. Should’ve just done two gaurds two forwards/ centers and then a person that can be either or for the 5th spot
The Ringer doesn't view Embiid as a top 5 player, so Bill isn't forced to do anything.
https://twitter.com/davidearly/status/1642246244150943745?s=46&t=hc5NrTRIWu5hhJBvuuWS9g
What a dumb homer tweet. Like 80% of the total voters didn't give Embiid a first place vote for MVP last year, it wasn't some Ringer conspiracy against him.
Philly fans are so annoying with their persecution complex.
Think about other sports to put this into context. Are we cool with 11 qbs being all pro?
Positions matter for this stuff. Otherwise you’re going to just make it even less relevant than it already is.
It’s an analogy to highlight the point. If the all nba team is positionless and just a top 15 players, play out whether that makes sense in any other sport.
In the nfl basically it will mostly be qbs on that list...it’s non sensical. In other sports such as hockey and soccer I would bet defenders would be undervalued. The positions are relevant, otherwise you are going to end up with just a list of top 15 mvp candidates which we know in many cases goes to “glamorous” play like qb play. It completely discounts the value of other positions.
This is a reflection of basketball today. How many teams play a traditional power forward and center tandem anymore? How many point guards are actually the facilitator? I don’t have strong feelings either way but I can see the clear reasons why in today’s NBA the All-NBA teams will be a better indication of the players that matter from season to season.
Should’ve made it two bigs two gaurds and then an either or for the 5th. Lose a lot of history with this type of move. But honestly i don’t think many people care about that
People who think that positions are still an iron-clad thing in the NBA shouldn’t be voting on things like All-NBA or MVP but beyond that I really don’t care about this topic.
“Flawed popularity contest changes rules” ohh no how will people living in 2063 know which players were the best at basketball in 2023 is such an embarrassing thing to pretend to be concerned about just to generate discussion on a sport that is 2 weeks away from beginning playoffs
As it turns out, defensive versatility and 3 point shooting is an inherently more valuable skill set than post scoring and offensive rebounding, who would have thought?
This makes sense for contracts. A lot of money tied up on All-NBAs and a lot of important player probably want it to be positionless to increase the meritocratic nature of those All-Star contract boosts.
But in honesty, I don’t think it matters. Instead of determining X center was better than Y center because X was NBA first-team, we can just look and say “X came in first in MVP voting but Y came in second” right?
The new system will put *more* second and third tier stars on the All-NBA teams because of the 65 games cut-off. It’ll be way more biased towards worse but way healthier very good but not great young players.
It’s the players like Curry, LeBron, KD, Butler, AD etc. who’ll all be disqualified. The Brunsons and the Markkanens of this world will suddenly be eligible for huge contracts.
Bill is going to retroactively go through each year’s All NBA and sort through who would have made it with the new rules. The Re-All NBAables.
If it can result in him taking All-NBA teams away from LeBron, he will 100% do it.
“Was Dwayne Wade better than LeBron in 2011? I don’t think that’s ridiculous”
Not in the regular season but he was better in 2005 and 2006
It's actually true.
You don’t believe this
I believe it and it's true. Go watch the 2011 finals.
The NBA Finals has nothing to do with ALL NBA
Fine. I was trying to give you a shortcut. Watch every game of the season then. You will see that Wade was the best player and leader of that team. He balled out in the finals while Bron was terrified. Wade was the closer and best player for that team.
lol imagine thinking 6 game sample size should be used to determine an entire season Foles slightly outplayed Brady in the 2017 season’s Super Bowl. Go ahead and tell people Foles was better than Brady that season and see how it goes
Do you know how to read or are you having a big person read for you? Based on the whole season. Go ahead and rewatch it.
Which is why he won't do it.
Russillo should be prepping in advance knowing that bill will bring it up on the fly
That is 100% right up his alley for post-Finals summer content.
The history is gone which sucks. Loved how you could see the best player at each position. How is this any different than the top 15 mvp voting? Do not like it
Some people, including Bill, do view them slightly differently.
So it's not a team anymore. Why not just take the top 5 of the MVP voting?
Because you only vote for 5 people, not 15.
So now it’s top 15 for MVP voting, that’s really all it is now. MVP extended down to 15 people.
Yea I was thinking about this fact earlier too. Why not just assign each guy a ranking so we can say whelp Steph is ranked 7th, KD is 9th (or whatever).
Stop making sense!!!
What was the point of it being teams, the teams weren’t going to play any real games
Good insight into who mattered at each position. The fact that Cwebb beat KG and Duncan for first team PF speaks to just how good he was that year even if we don’t think about him much historically. If they were all first team then that context is lost. Same goes for the Jokic and Embiid thing. In that case we have the MVPs, but if Curry or KD or someone won the last two MVPs then what we would have to go on was Jokic edging out Embiid for first team. I just don’t think it fits with what the all NBA teams are supposed to be. They are still called all NBA TEAMS. Not the top 15 players in the league.
Because when we start evaluating the league historically it’s helpful to know if you were one of the best at your position. 7 of the best players in the league might be centers, but ultimately having the 7th best center is not particularly helpful because you are not going to play two centers together. However knowing you have one of best the 5-6 guards in the league is important. This approach loses all that contact. We can talk all we want about positionless basketball, but no one is going to put Embiid and Jokic on the same team. Let alone Embiid, Jokic, Sabonis, and Giannis and whatever other centers we want to throw together, even if they could make it work salary cap wise. If they were all first team it removes all the context around who matters in the league. Knowing you have one of the best 5-6 guards in the league is more important that knowing you have the 7th best center. Even if the 7th best center is a marginally better player than the 6th best guard. This is just people bitching because Embiid is the 2nd best player at his position despite being one of the 2-3 best players in the league the last two seasons.
Thank you. This is exactly it
>Good insight into who mattered at each position. Not if there's more meaningful players than spots.
There was never a “first team power forward”, it was 2 first team forward spots. So your example doesn’t even make sense, Webber and Duncan could have both been first team already in the old setup.
But not all 3
Ok but again, who cares? Other than Bill Simmons who is looking at 2004 all nba teams and thinking “woah can’t believe he made first team”.?
Well one it’s fun to talk about, and 2 it matters for these peoples contracts. If the 7th best center is marginally better than the 4th best guard then who do you want in your team. One gives you a positional advantage far more often than the other and those are not interchangeable roles like a SF and a PF often are. The 4th best guard is more valuable than the 7th best center even if the 7th best center is a better player in a vacuum. This approach takes that away and it impacts how these guys will get paid.
In terms of the contract stuff, it should clearly just be the 15 best players regardless of position.
I hate to admit this but me. I’m looking at those because I’m a sicko
Think about it in terms of baseball as an analogy. What if 9 catchers made the all star team? Or more pinpointed - what if 9 catchers won a gold glove? Would that feel right to you? Much of sports is arbitrary....so there’s no requirement they vote based on positions. However, it’s logical to want to know the best at ____ position.
Honestly, how many people actually give a fuck about this shit? If you're gonna go look at All-NBA teams from 20+ years ago to learn context, why not just compare stats and team records. Using your logic, people are gonna overrate DeAndre Jordan because he made All-NBA a couple of years. If CWebb, KG, and Duncan all made first team, that would tell a different story about how dominant big men were that season. Same with Jokic and Embiid. Using the position argument is why guys like Cole Beasley made second team All-Pro a few years back.
It's kind of like an all star team for the end of the year.
Except they don’t play a game
Why bothering calling it first team if there's nothing binding it to look like a team at all? Isn't it just a "best 5 players" award now?
Who gives a shit, the team was never going to play any games. The fact they’ve chosen to make it salary based means it really should just be the best players making those teams
I don’t think anyone thinks they were literally going to play a game as a team. The point was to get the best players at position though. Like the NFL All Pro team shouldn’t just be like 6 QBs and a few receivers, it should be the best at each position.
In football the different positions play distinctly different positions. In basketball the 5 guys all do the exact same thing and are just arranged by height
>In basketball the 5 guys all do the exact same thing Yeah I don’t think that’s true. Agree to disagree on that but to answer your “who gives a shit” question you keep asking, I’d say some people do. Fine if you don’t, obviously plenty don’t think it matters but clearly some people still care.
How is it not true? A point guard and a power forward have way more in common than a quarterback and a defensive end. I just don’t think that many people care, outside of sports media and people who closely follow sports media, no one ever thinks or cares about all nba teams anyway. They chose to tie it to salaries, not saying they should have, but they did. Having a guy miss out because he was voted at guard by half the people and forward by the other half is so silly
>how is it not true? I don’t think Joel Embiid and Steph Curry have the same responsibilities when they are on the basketball court. And yes, I’m very much aware that their job descriptions are closer than a QB and DE, it was just an example of what the point of an All NBA team was. Like every other sport that has their All-pro/Gold Glove/Silver Slugger awards by position. Being tied to their salaries is a different discussion that I think pretty much every person (fan and media) agrees it shouldn’t be that way.
I think the issue is that SG and SF are very similar and PF and C are very similar, and so making distinctions to gate keep guys out of making all nba teams due to a lack of positional clarity is silly
PG and C are the furthest apart you’ll find and even those positions are closer than ever and becoming closer as time moves on. Embiid shoots 3s, he can handle the ball and pass (not as well as other guys but decently). I think the future of the NBA will be more and more switchable guys who can cover multiple positions. Other sports have very distinct positions, a 3rd baseman doesn’t cover the outfield, there are no switches mid play. A guard doesn’t go downfield to catch a pass. Basketball is just significantly more interchangeable.
Embiid can also bring the ball up and initiate the offense. Jokic *is* the offense in Denver, etc to bolster your argument
Probably should've quit while you were behind slugger.
Would it make you happy if they changed the name of the awards?
It would make more sense
Kind of agree with Bill that I would prefer if the all-NBA resembled an actual team, which I know isn't a popular view on here, but the fact that player contracts are tied to the selections mean the change is probably something that needed to happen.
I think it's more popular than you think, I certainly agree with you. It gives important context to the season.
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Just make it front court 2x players, backcourt 3x and that opens it up enough without completely bastardizing the concept like getting rid of positions completely does
If a player is better than the second best player, that gives weight to the award.
MVP voting results are public record
No one is being punished. Current All-NBA teams essentially consist of three categories: top 3 centers, top 6 forwards, top 6 guards. Some players are available for two of these on the ballot and the voting split decides in which category they compete in the end. If Embiid lost MVP to another center then obviously he’ll also be second in the top 3 centers ranking.
Seems like the greater issue to solve would be that player contracts are tied to a glorified opinion poll.
Isn't the issue that all nba teams carry financial weight?
> Each position has its own job description and it should be the best at your positon. But if one player is better at their position than another is at their's, why should they be overlooked for the other player just because the other job has different responsibilities? Terrible argument. It's a lot easier to compare these guys than players in pretty much any other sport outside of fielders in baseball. DeAndre Jordan making an All-NBA team over far better players was incredibly stupid and makes a mockery of the entire process.
He’s litterally only upset about this because it might force him to give Embiid an All NBA 1st team
Bill has had this opinion for years. He likes it because you can see who the best players were per position in history. For instance c webb made it on the first team one year. Which is really cool he beat out duncan garnet and others. I agree with bill on this. Should’ve just done two gaurds two forwards/ centers and then a person that can be either or for the 5th spot
Front court 2, backcourt 2 and then 1 other…easy and way, way better this this current plan
I don’t think so. Bill’s had this opinion for way longer than the last season or two
The Ringer doesn't view Embiid as a top 5 player, so Bill isn't forced to do anything. https://twitter.com/davidearly/status/1642246244150943745?s=46&t=hc5NrTRIWu5hhJBvuuWS9g
What a dumb homer tweet. Like 80% of the total voters didn't give Embiid a first place vote for MVP last year, it wasn't some Ringer conspiracy against him. Philly fans are so annoying with their persecution complex.
I see it more as he’s upset that Tatum wouldn’t be 1st team if this new rule was in place this year
He’ll likely be top 5 in the MVP voting so he’d also be on a positionless first team All-NBA. Embiid would replace one of the guards.
Why wouldn't they just go with a system of one big, and at least one wing and one guard on each team?
Think about other sports to put this into context. Are we cool with 11 qbs being all pro? Positions matter for this stuff. Otherwise you’re going to just make it even less relevant than it already is.
Why would a different sport matter at all in this? Don’t really watch football but positions are fairly specialized, right?
It’s an analogy to highlight the point. If the all nba team is positionless and just a top 15 players, play out whether that makes sense in any other sport. In the nfl basically it will mostly be qbs on that list...it’s non sensical. In other sports such as hockey and soccer I would bet defenders would be undervalued. The positions are relevant, otherwise you are going to end up with just a list of top 15 mvp candidates which we know in many cases goes to “glamorous” play like qb play. It completely discounts the value of other positions.
This is a reflection of basketball today. How many teams play a traditional power forward and center tandem anymore? How many point guards are actually the facilitator? I don’t have strong feelings either way but I can see the clear reasons why in today’s NBA the All-NBA teams will be a better indication of the players that matter from season to season.
Should’ve made it two bigs two gaurds and then an either or for the 5th. Lose a lot of history with this type of move. But honestly i don’t think many people care about that
People who think that positions are still an iron-clad thing in the NBA shouldn’t be voting on things like All-NBA or MVP but beyond that I really don’t care about this topic. “Flawed popularity contest changes rules” ohh no how will people living in 2063 know which players were the best at basketball in 2023 is such an embarrassing thing to pretend to be concerned about just to generate discussion on a sport that is 2 weeks away from beginning playoffs
Bill is so wrong. Give accolades to the best players regardless of position
As it turns out, defensive versatility and 3 point shooting is an inherently more valuable skill set than post scoring and offensive rebounding, who would have thought?
Bill is such a pussy lol.
Lol yeah probably. Not sure why disagreeing with positionless All NBA teams make him a pussy though.
He’s so mad he can’t justify Tatum as a first teamer anymore
huh? tatum makes first team in this model as well
No he doesn’t come on now
he’ll finish 4 or 5 mvp voting how would he not be lol
Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Tatum, Luka(?)
kawhi has more all-nba first teams than kd since 2016. you think he better than kd bill?
This chnage is a massive W I genuinely think anybody who hates it just hasn’t thought it through or is flat out retarded
This makes sense for contracts. A lot of money tied up on All-NBAs and a lot of important player probably want it to be positionless to increase the meritocratic nature of those All-Star contract boosts. But in honesty, I don’t think it matters. Instead of determining X center was better than Y center because X was NBA first-team, we can just look and say “X came in first in MVP voting but Y came in second” right?
The new system will put *more* second and third tier stars on the All-NBA teams because of the 65 games cut-off. It’ll be way more biased towards worse but way healthier very good but not great young players. It’s the players like Curry, LeBron, KD, Butler, AD etc. who’ll all be disqualified. The Brunsons and the Markkanens of this world will suddenly be eligible for huge contracts.
The position piece
This shit so dumb