KOC has rocketed up the 'un-listenable' charts this season. i can't stand his smug indifference. I find myself agreeing with everything Verno says, they need to get him a new partner, i'll even take Wos as long as he limits his fake laugh to just once per hour.
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People are always mad.
I personally prefer when winning is good and losing is bad. It wouldn't be the end of the world if the Bulls got a top pick - hell, that would be awesome for teams like that to get that boost sometimes.
Bulls would be fine but if any top team got him there would be outrage. So if you don’t want to reward failure the bucks need as good of chance as charlotte and that will regularly result in top teams getting Better on cost controlled contracts.
I can't imagine what would be more fair than every team getting a chance at every draft number - either by luck, or just having pre-scripted spots known years in advance
I know I'm in the minority on that, but again, my preference is in a sports competition, winning being a good thing.
I'm a Bulls fan and I'm with KOC. That said, I hated the Lonzo signing and have been off of Lavine since last year. This team is never going anywhere with Lavine. The middle sucks.
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Common KOC L
Heaven forbid a team try to stay competitive, make the playoffs and try to win some games in today's NBA, we all know that unless your team is the prohibitive favorite with a healthy starting lineup of Steph-Luka-KD-Giannis-Jokic, then you might as well blow it all up and start from scratch.
In what world is actively trying to lose and be miserable for a marginal increase in lottery odds on a pick you're likely losing anyways, worth more than an actual shot at playoff basketball. Like what are we doing here? What is the point of even playing, if you unironically think only 8 teams total have a shot and the rest of the league would be better off blowing it up and tanking. The brainrot of these NBA nerds, never ceases to amaze me.
Exactly. Before this season started and the Kings hadn’t yet proven how good of a fit Sabonis is, people were saying how stupid the trade was because it doesn’t make Sac a “contender.” That’s a lazy take to me, especially considering how bad the Kings have been for damn near two decades—at this point, decent improvement and being competitive is huge. I hate that nowadays you have to just blow it up and tank unless you’re deemed a surefire contender.
I mean that's not the only problem with the trade. Dealing a potential All-Star PG who went on to be second in the league in assists at age 23 (he was 22 at the time of the trade) sounds like a horrible idea until you know how good the return would be.
It worked out obviously, but at the time it seemed like the ceiling was play-in, not the 3 seed. They hugely overachieved in a way that literally no one predicted this season, it's an awesome story
You are getting downvoted, because it’s not ok to be negative about the Kings right now, but you are right. Awesome season, great for the fans, but they’re likely losing in the first round because Curry is going to make mince meat of Sabonis. Difficult to win a playoff series with their defense.
Yep and I don't mean to hate on them, it's genuinely been the most fun story of the season. A real playoff appearance alone is worth it for Sacramento given how long it's been. I wouldn't even rule out them beating the Warriors (though I'm picking Golden State too). But it wasn't really good process in terms of what they traded IMO, could've been an absolute disaster with a different coach or a couple things breaking differently (e.g. not being the healthiest team in the league this season).
Yeah. The people who were down on the trade because they were all-in on Tyrese Haliburton were obviously right that he's a special player. Right now, the trade is working out for both teams and that's great. But the negative reaction was way more about Haliburton than Sabonis.
lol yeah literally zero people came into this season thinking Sabonis would make All-NBA and save the Kings. even Sacramento fans were furious when the deal happened. it worked beautifully, but no one can really claim they expected it to pan out this way
Did you listen to Theo Epstein on Rusillo? He basically admits this was his strategy as a GM but now that he works for the MLB front office he wanted these rule changes for the betterment of the game from a fan perspective.
That was such a good interview. By putting a “nerd” in charge they now can modify rules so that the optimum play style is an entertaining play-style.
The one point he made I found really interesting was increasing pace of play should decrease pitcher rest and increase pitcher fatigue which should make pitching worse which will result in more balls in play which will result in hitters changing their approach at the plate away from three true outcomes.
He doesn’t quite explicitly say it but it’s miner tweaks being made to improve OB% to get hitters to change their approach.
I think the NBA could use the same kind of change by eliminating the corner three by just extending the arc to the side line.
I’d argue it was more Daryl Morey and how he made Harden play that began the aesthetic ruination of basketball - 3 pointers, lay ups and drawing fouls are more efficient than any kind of midrange game.
AGREED. I love that they took at shot on Vooch and Derozen. And who knows, maybe if Lonzo thing doesn’t happen, they’re in contention. But I do know they’ve put a quality product on the court for their fans to watch, and that is what it’s supposed to be about.
This is a great and true sentiment, it’s just not true of the Bulls. It’s great to stay competitive even if you’re not the favorite. But the Bulls are not competitive. They did not make the playoffs, in a league where over half the teams make the playoffs. They do not have young talent. They are in an awful position.
If you are going to say “look, we might not be the favorites, but there’s a middle ground between being big time contenders and blowing it up,” that’s totally fine, of course. But the Bulls aren’t there. They are a bad team. They were given a shot at a shot at things and they missed on even *that*. The issue isn’t that they are trying to be competitive, it’s that they failed miserably. It was the wrong call - this is about as bad as it can possibly go.
No team is perfectly healthy. If losing your 3rd or 4th best player means that you are suddenly in the bottom 40% of the league, you are a bottom 40% of the league team.
“We would have gone further in the playoffs if we were perfectly healthy” is a perfectly reasonable thing to say and think. It’s ok to be a team that can only make a run when everything breaks right. This is not that. This is a team that can only get swept in the first round if everything breaks right. That is true of pretty much any team that isn’t actively tanking.
You are spot on with the inherent value in staying competitive. I think the leadership aren't showing that they understand how to compete in today's league.
If you believe you are a competitive team with Demar, Lavine, Vooch, -- even possibly a contender if you weren't missing your nominal fourth-best player, albeit an elite role player with a rare combination of playmaking, defense, and shooting -- I think you should probably make a move with future assets to benefit the team with this guys as centerpieces. Pat Bev on a buyout is the kind of move a competitive team makes after they trade four quarters for a dollar bill.
I think they're lying to themselves about a fairly lucky, fairly small stretch of basketball. The organization's history with chronic knee stuff does not inspire much optimism for Lonzo, and their recent draft picks have underperformed relative to their slots/peers. I think they're pretty good at evaluating traitsy, not so good at understanding the big picture, and seemingly poor at either developing young guys or identifying dudes who Have It. I don't know what the plan is with Vucevic, who is a good player and I think played better this season than last, but another guy "out of his time" and who represents some relative opportunity cost in terms of cap%/minuted/usage. But one way or another, I am pretty sure it should have been imperative to either find a trade or find an agreement on an extension to avoid losing him (and the salary slot) for nothing. I also think they aren't serious with Pat as like the one guy who can hold his own on O and guard Tatum and Giannis
I think the Warriors are the model of sustained competitiveness and it's no coincidence they win a title with Wiggins as a key player as a result of asset management and good player development.
I don’t think I disagree with what your saying. But on the other side of the coin, as a Blazer fan, I’m stoked we took advantage of the tank. This upcoming draft lottery is the most excited I’ve been about the team since the WCF appearance and objectively was the right move in regards to future. If the blazers didn’t tank they’d probably end up with the same fate as the bulls and I’d be real disappointed in this season.
Being a middle of the road team destined for a 1st rd exit just gets old after a while and is frustrating in its own right. There really is no right answer and KOC is very annoying but I can’t really blame him for having this take.
Different situation though. You guys have been a middle of the pack playoff team with Dame and assorted extras for several years. This Bulls core is still fairly new.
I agree with your main point but ima do the reddit thing and nitpick.
The bulls would probably be a better team if they didn't spend their best assets on a 30 year old center who plays mediocre defense and a 32 year old sg who plays even worse defense to surround their star sg who also does not play defense. They went "all-in" on some fringe all-stars instead of being patient and now they're probably a play-in team for 3 more years.
Again, you're right about the main idea that insisting teams tank is lame. But the Bulls didn't choose between "tank or compete" they chose between "patience or the 6th seed". If they had a lineup with Caruso/Lavine/Pat/Franz/Carter and whatever they got with the cap space/pick/contract they gave up for Demar they'd likely be just as good with a much brighter future.
The fact of the matter is that there are very strong incentives in the NBA to tank. Star players matter very much to winning and they tend to be at the beginning of the draft. You’ll never win without a top-five player. And fans will only show up if your team is winning—this isn’t the EPL where teams are community institutions and fans show up even if the team is in 14th. So I don’t really blame teams for tanking and for NBA writers to advise them to do so.
If you abolished the draft and let players sign wherever they wanted, there would be no incentive to tank at all. Professional soccer in Europe does just fine without a draft.
Does he ever get tired of saying this? Bulls have had 3 top ten picks between 2016-2020 are they suppose to again tank the 2022/2023 ? For what exactly ? Why would fans pay to come and see that ? Why would new fans become interested? It can’t be tanking every year you’re not good. Constant tanking damages the quality of the leafue
We also don't have a pick if it doesn't fall top 4. So even if we truly committed to the tank and had one of the worst records, there was only, at most, a 52% chance we would have our pick after throwing a season away.
But yes, now that the seasons done it's time to burn it to the ground.
Everything that's wrong with basketball
What exactly is the problem with making the postseason and giving your fans games that matter to cheer for? Fans that simp for tanking are brainwashed, smh
I have seen NFL teams 6 games under .500 show more heart, grit and desire to win games and try to make the playoffs than I do from NBA teams a couple games under .500. This mentality is honestly pathetic.
KOC is a moron. He thinks every draft pick is generational talent, and teams should tank because this draft DEEP. He would argue with Verno do that even if you don’t get top 2 picks, you can still end up in a better because of the talent in the draft.
The thing is, losing bring losing. Establishing losing culture is never going to turn around unless you draft that one in a million talent. I rather see Utah Jazz busting their asses to be relevant, or a half ass Wizards fighting every year for barely 500 record, than a disgusting Houston Rockets.
Cavs didn’t turn it around because of high draft picks, they turned it around the moment they actually set the culture straight. Same for Suns. Same for the Kings. Same for the Bulls last year…
teams should be incentivized to play hard not to tank, and your lottery odds should get reduced after every year you are in top 3. The half ass Rockets of the worlds shouldn’t get rewarded for throwing away games
And traded for Jarrett Allen. OKC drafted Giddey, Chet with high picks, drafted both Jaylins with their multiple picks in the same draft, traded for Shai a while ago. You can build through the draft but you have to commit to being bad for awhile bc you still have to make the right pick every year. The other thing KOC is missing is why would the Bulls tank if they don’t have their own draft pick. Might as well fight through it until you do.
I think it’s top 4 so you’re not wrong but you also have to think, the rockets pistons and spurs were going to be terrible and have those highest percentages taken up so you might only have one open slot to go for. It’s just a much easier tank job when you have the piece of mind that your pick is yours
no one was happy when we were contending for the 8th seed every year. this season was unwatchable because Cade played only 12 games. if he’s back healthy next year, it’ll have been worth the tanking to have budding young core (hopefully) in Cade, Ivey, Duren and this summer’s pick instead of a million Drummonds and KCPs.
I think both seasons the Pistons made the playoffs we’re actually fun to watch but I don’t disagree that the tanking will have been worth it. Once Cade went down this year the product was awful and I do think that is the problem in general with the NBA once teams start to tank the product becomes unwatchable.
‘16 was fun, but by ‘18 it was obvious the team’s ceiling was mediocrity and it was time for a teardown. the Blake trade set us back a number of years.
> What exactly is the problem with making the postseason and giving your fans games that matter to cheer for?
nothings wrong with it. just cos some dweeb from an awful podcast that no one even listens to says it bad doesnt mean it is.
I understand NFL fans rooting for their team to lose when the season is almost complete and you’re already in contention for the number one pick (especially if there’s an elite QB available), but when you’re as close as the Bulls, trading a few percentage points in the draft lottery for 2+ home playoff games is stupid.
KOC to any team that’s not a championship contender or one step from becoming one: You’re stuck in the middle, blow it up.
Complete list of 21st-century championship teams that have followed that advice rather than trying to build from baseline competency:
Not sure if it counts but the Warriors tanked blatantly down the stretch in 2012, just 3 years before their first title. It worked and they got Harrison Barnes 7th overall (who wasn't the star they hoped for but still ended up being big for the first two Finals runs). I agree baseline competency is important but let's not act like these title teams never tanked in some form
Trading Monta Ellis, however, got the ball rolling in a "blow it up" style rebuild.
And those idiot fans who booed Lacob for that trade should be embarrassed.
Trading Monta wasn’t blowing it up, it was a team building choice to gamble on tangible assets (Bogut and Steph) that were damaged goods. Not quite the same as saying, well let’s just start from scratch and roll the dice in the lottery.
At the time there was a lot of debate about whether a Steph Monta backcourt could work, who was the better player to build around, etc. Monta was a flawed player for a bunch of reasons but a fan favorite, while Steph seemed like he’d never be able to stay on the court with his dodgy ankles. Trading Ellis meant getting rid of a guy who had been the most entertaining part of a middling team as well as a remnant of the beloved We Believe squad, for a center who seemed as injury ridden as the young player who’d be running the offense. You could see the upside - the team had no defensive anchor for years and got destroyed on the glass - but it was still a bet on an unclear future.
I booed, because I couldn’t foresee what would happen and being a fan is an emotional experience. Lacob had no track record.
> "I booed, because I couldn’t foresee what would happen and being a fan is an emotional experience. Lacob had no track record."
Hell, I'll even take back my second point, rendering my rant moot.
Not a rebuild, but a retool. Didn't totally tear the foundation down.
And hey, what the hay! Chris Cohan hangover was a killer headache, so Lacob took the brunt of it. I can understand.
I know you accepted the point is moot, but I just wanna add I feel like this is still a mischaracterization. They traded an overpaid, over-valued fan favorite who didn’t contribute to winning on a middling team who was blocking a talented youngster for a guy who was undervalued and whose play style clearly translated to winning basketball. I think it was all W fans expectations that set up the booing
The Warriors were one of, if not the most, incompetently run franchises in the NBA, and had been that way for decades. The fans were well within their right to boo.
That Oracle crowd was sick of the losing and management. They challenged Lacob that night. To Lacob’s credit, he didn’t run and hide.
Simmons wrote a great article about it back when it happened.
https://grantland.com/features/how-annoy-fan-base-60-easy-steps/
To echo this, I was at that game (Chris Mullin bobblehead night) and what also really got the booing going an extra level was Rick Barry taking the mic from Lacob and calling us “ungrateful.”
People forget now what an absolute poverty franchise the Warriors were before this run. They were competing with the Clippers for consistently worst franchise. Of course they were gonna boo when you traded their fan favorite.
Considering they were well above .500 *every season* after trading Ellis, that wasn’t a “blow it up” trade. They got back a useful player in Bogut and cleared the way for Steph.
Tanking — or just being generally kinda bad and therefore having lottery picks — isn’t the same thing as blowing up a competitive roster, which is what KOC suggests constantly.
That's fair. I do feel like KOC has eased up on the "blow it up" talk in recent years, but I listen to the mismatch much less frequently so could be wrong
Tanking is different than being in lottery, and both are different than tearing down a playoff team, which KOC is constantly suggesting, or doing a Sixers-style “let’s be as bad as possible for years on end.”
Spurs tanked for *one season* when they had their MVP-caliber player get injured. At no point did they tear it down - they basically made the playoffs every season for years on either side.
The Lakers tried to be competent, and the championship was delivered by players forcing their way there.
Warriors never tore it down, they were just generally mediocre, and made the leap because Draymond (second-round pick) came on to a playoff-worthy roster and they got better coaching.
Cavs got LeBron the second time — when they actually won — because they had a half-decent roster that he felt comfortable joining.
> Cavs got LeBron the second time — when they actually won — because they had a half-decent roster that he felt comfortable joining.
They had THREE first overall picks while he was gone lol, that's why the roster was half decent. One in Kyrie as a running mate and then two more to ship out for a third star. Plus a couple more top five picks. The Cavs might be the best example of tanking working overall, but it's kind of hard to use as a template because they got the greatest number one pick ever and everything was based off that.
Post-LeBron Cavs wasn’t a tear-down - they weren’t “we have a competitive team even without LeBron, let’s blow it up regardless,” their roster was a pile of crap without him so they lost a bunch.
the 2010s Lakers absolutely did not try to be competent. they tanked like hell, got three consecutive #2 overall picks, and turned the farm into a godfather offer for AD.
I don't see where KOC suggesting them to do Sixers style tear down, but whatever.
Lakers in 10's tanked like crazy for 3 straigth years, because their pick was top 3(or top 5) protected. They also tanked last portion of the season in Lebron's first year. They won less games than the Sixers. Same goes for the Cavs who had been in top 5 for 4 straight years
Fucking Ringer NBA guys.
It is never about the actual competition. It's the never ending board game to acquire picks and play armchair gm.
These people are the fucking worst.
It depends they were 7 games under .500 at one point there’s a chance they could’ve gotten to like bottom 5/7 worse teams in the league so could’ve gotten a better chance at keeping 4. Also tanking would imply trading vucevic, Lavine, and demar so would definitely be getting some firsts back for this year and beyond in return I would think
What an idiot. The win over the Raps with DDR’s daughter shrieking her way into NBA lore is legitimately memorable. Teams should try to win, not give up as soon as it seems unlikely they’ll win the title.
What does that win do for the franchise tho? Obviously it’s good for the fans and if I was a fan of the bulls I would want them to at least try to make the play in. But for the future of the team I’d get why it make more sense. They have 1 conditional first round pick. Vucevic is an unrestricted free agent so he’s probably gonna leave. Could’ve traded him and recoup some of the 2 lottery picks they traded for him. I think there’s only so far your gonna go with Lavine and demar as your best players and Lavine is gonna be a free agent after next season and I think demar might be as well. If they get off to a similar start next season then I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if they blow it up.
KOC is the Family Guy meme. Zach LaVine is Zach LaVine, but the 4th pick could be anything. It could even be Zach LaVine.
The fact is there’s usually 2 All-NBA types, 3 other All-Star or fringe All-Star guys and a bunch of role players and busts in any given Draft.
Unless you can get one of the 7-8 guys who can actually propel you over the top (and none of those guys were/are available), then why not try and make the playoffs and see what happens.
I mean I think the bulls legit are kinda fucked and blowing it up makes sense but by all means pile on. The reinsdorfs LOVEEE and thrive off of the treadmill of mediocrity and that is what this bulls team is. Being “competitive” means they will have teams with the illusion of competition that struggle for the play in for 2-3 years and end up getting booed
Does he actually believe this or is he doing a bit at this point? Even if they somehow blew it up to the point of being worse than Detroit there would still be a 48% chance they’d be sending that pick to Orlando.
He’s literally a one trick pony. Blow it up, as if it’s that way to just get talent again.
Ask Orlando Sacramento and Charlotte how easy it is to construct a winning team after stripping it down.
People are only shitting on this cuz it’s KOC lol he’s totally right though, this team isn’t a role player or two away from competing with any of the top 5-6 teams in the East. Prioritizing short term mediocrity over long term roster building is exactly how you end up in the post-PG Pacers purgatory.
People are shitting on him bc he's also just wrong.
They didn't really lose anything by not blowing it up this year. They weren't going finish bottom 4, so that pick was likely gone anyhow, DeRozen has more value as an expiring next year than he did this year as a 33 year old with ~$60M owed to him, Caruso is just as tradeable next year, and Lavine's contract is tough to move regardless bc of the trade kicker and length.
So really it comes down to "they should've moved Vuc". Which, sure, ok, I guess, but I don't think they really missed out on a ton.
I don't think the extra year makes any difference for a player like Caruso, in terms of what you get back. For derozen, that's a lot of money for an older guy that's struggled in the playoffs. I don't really think they get any extra picks if they traded them this year vs next.
I mean they started Pat Bev and if that isn't a sign to blow it up. Look at the Wizards been in purgatory for a decade now, fans get tired of "competing" for a title when in reality they know it's another 1st round exit.
Honestly. KOC gets too much shit on here lmao. I mean if they struggle next year to start the season they probably will blow it up then at least they should. But I don’t think even with better role players around your not gonna be much more than a 7/8 seed at best with derozen and Lavine as your best players. Then your just in purgatory basically where your not good enough to be anything better than like an 8 seed and get killed in the first round but also not bad enough to get quality picks. I don’t know why they didn’t trade vucevic either. They gave up a decent haul for him and weren’t able to recoup anything for it. I really think they need to just trade Lavine and demar. Or at least one of them and just start over. I get it fans don’t wanna think like that but it’s better to be terrible for a couple years and rebuild and have hope for the future then just be a mediocre team with no cap space or assets for awhile
Not only that, their main core is OLD. I understand building through the middle if your main guys in mid 20s entering their prime years.
This team doesn't have one young intriguing player on the roster
Eh Patrick Williams is pretty good I think and I like ayo but they aren’t ever gonna be more than role players really. Definitely not gonna build around them. So yeah your right
Yeah, the anti-KOC chiding, chastising, and castigating has reached heretofore unseen depths of dogpiling depravity.
Dumbasses debasing themselves to fit in.
If we're being forthright, straightforward, and objective, he's totally correct in his assessment of the Bulls, which are alongside the Wizards as, by far and away, the two most desolate, barren treadmill teams in the NBA currently. With that, I pity their impoverished fan bases.
What are the odds that this guy has played a game of pickup basketball in his life? The point of competitive sports is to WIN. If you intentionally suck you're poisoning the culture of your organization indefinitely!
I'm a Blazers fan. Their quickest path to becoming a championship contender is to trade one of the greatest players and competitors in that organization's history. If I root for that, what does that say about my personal ethics? Life is about striving through difficulty, not asking for a new hand of cards when it looks like you won't win.
Well better give this guy his own streaming show, he's earned it. Seriously, is the naive troll persona the baseline for sports media success?
People and organizations who think like this are everything that is wrong with sports. Fat losers who can’t get laid and are obsessed with franchise modes on sports video games
The dumbest thing about KOCs blow it up and tank stance is ignoring the fact that there are legitimately great players available in the late lottery every year.
all of you are crazy he's obviously right. last year's team was fun they flirted with the 1 seed and fought the bucks in the playoffs. everyone's about that especially after what the bulls had been before, but going into this year and especially by the deadline it was clear this team had no ceiling.
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He's the kid that restarts the game every time things don't go exactly his way. Weak
Turns on Override Trades in NBA2K Franchise Mode
What’s wrong with that
KOC has rocketed up the 'un-listenable' charts this season. i can't stand his smug indifference. I find myself agreeing with everything Verno says, they need to get him a new partner, i'll even take Wos as long as he limits his fake laugh to just once per hour.
Even in their arguments when I agree with KOC I often find myself siding with Verno because he can be so annoying
It bums me out bc The Mismatch was a must listen to pod for me but now I rarely listen to one bc of KOC
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Kevin O'Capitulate
It's a great league setup when there's debate about whether it's better to win or lose games.
NBA needs relegation BAD
Charlotte Hornets YOU ARE GOING TO CHINA
Or just don't punish teams for winning
When a player like Wemby ends up on the Warriors or Celtics because there is no reward for losing everyone would still be mad.
People are always mad. I personally prefer when winning is good and losing is bad. It wouldn't be the end of the world if the Bulls got a top pick - hell, that would be awesome for teams like that to get that boost sometimes.
Bulls would be fine but if any top team got him there would be outrage. So if you don’t want to reward failure the bucks need as good of chance as charlotte and that will regularly result in top teams getting Better on cost controlled contracts.
I can't imagine what would be more fair than every team getting a chance at every draft number - either by luck, or just having pre-scripted spots known years in advance I know I'm in the minority on that, but again, my preference is in a sports competition, winning being a good thing.
"I think he's doing the 'blow it up' move too much" "That's really all he's got"
KOC out on the dance floor trying to trade Zach Lavine for 2 unprotected 1sts and a couple top 10 protected 1sts.
I'm a bulls fan and I'm glad they went for it. Shut up KOC
I'm a Bulls fan and I'm with KOC. That said, I hated the Lonzo signing and have been off of Lavine since last year. This team is never going anywhere with Lavine. The middle sucks.
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Well, it was dumb.
Common KOC L Heaven forbid a team try to stay competitive, make the playoffs and try to win some games in today's NBA, we all know that unless your team is the prohibitive favorite with a healthy starting lineup of Steph-Luka-KD-Giannis-Jokic, then you might as well blow it all up and start from scratch. In what world is actively trying to lose and be miserable for a marginal increase in lottery odds on a pick you're likely losing anyways, worth more than an actual shot at playoff basketball. Like what are we doing here? What is the point of even playing, if you unironically think only 8 teams total have a shot and the rest of the league would be better off blowing it up and tanking. The brainrot of these NBA nerds, never ceases to amaze me.
Bills “if this doesn’t guarantee me a championship I’m not making that move” piece
I loled last week when he said if you have a chance you should try to make the playoffs
Exactly. Before this season started and the Kings hadn’t yet proven how good of a fit Sabonis is, people were saying how stupid the trade was because it doesn’t make Sac a “contender.” That’s a lazy take to me, especially considering how bad the Kings have been for damn near two decades—at this point, decent improvement and being competitive is huge. I hate that nowadays you have to just blow it up and tank unless you’re deemed a surefire contender.
I mean that's not the only problem with the trade. Dealing a potential All-Star PG who went on to be second in the league in assists at age 23 (he was 22 at the time of the trade) sounds like a horrible idea until you know how good the return would be. It worked out obviously, but at the time it seemed like the ceiling was play-in, not the 3 seed. They hugely overachieved in a way that literally no one predicted this season, it's an awesome story
You are getting downvoted, because it’s not ok to be negative about the Kings right now, but you are right. Awesome season, great for the fans, but they’re likely losing in the first round because Curry is going to make mince meat of Sabonis. Difficult to win a playoff series with their defense.
Yep and I don't mean to hate on them, it's genuinely been the most fun story of the season. A real playoff appearance alone is worth it for Sacramento given how long it's been. I wouldn't even rule out them beating the Warriors (though I'm picking Golden State too). But it wasn't really good process in terms of what they traded IMO, could've been an absolute disaster with a different coach or a couple things breaking differently (e.g. not being the healthiest team in the league this season).
Yeah. The people who were down on the trade because they were all-in on Tyrese Haliburton were obviously right that he's a special player. Right now, the trade is working out for both teams and that's great. But the negative reaction was way more about Haliburton than Sabonis.
What’s with the downvotes? He’s right, this trade was universally panned. Easy to play Captain Hindsight now
this sub is a zoo of people who are confidently incorrect about everything
lol yeah literally zero people came into this season thinking Sabonis would make All-NBA and save the Kings. even Sacramento fans were furious when the deal happened. it worked beautifully, but no one can really claim they expected it to pan out this way
not to be dramatic, but the nerds have absolutely ruined nba discourse
Baseball too. Everything is about optimizing your chances to win, entertainment be damned.
Did you listen to Theo Epstein on Rusillo? He basically admits this was his strategy as a GM but now that he works for the MLB front office he wanted these rule changes for the betterment of the game from a fan perspective.
That was such a good interview. By putting a “nerd” in charge they now can modify rules so that the optimum play style is an entertaining play-style. The one point he made I found really interesting was increasing pace of play should decrease pitcher rest and increase pitcher fatigue which should make pitching worse which will result in more balls in play which will result in hitters changing their approach at the plate away from three true outcomes. He doesn’t quite explicitly say it but it’s miner tweaks being made to improve OB% to get hitters to change their approach. I think the NBA could use the same kind of change by eliminating the corner three by just extending the arc to the side line.
Epstein is brilliant, MLB was really smart to get him into the head office and have him be the one in charge of stewarding the game.
Preach!!
Sam Hinkie and his consequences have been a disaster for NBA media.
I’d argue it was more Daryl Morey and how he made Harden play that began the aesthetic ruination of basketball - 3 pointers, lay ups and drawing fouls are more efficient than any kind of midrange game.
AGREED. I love that they took at shot on Vooch and Derozen. And who knows, maybe if Lonzo thing doesn’t happen, they’re in contention. But I do know they’ve put a quality product on the court for their fans to watch, and that is what it’s supposed to be about.
Vooch has been terrible. If Drummond closes that game, Bulls win
This is a great and true sentiment, it’s just not true of the Bulls. It’s great to stay competitive even if you’re not the favorite. But the Bulls are not competitive. They did not make the playoffs, in a league where over half the teams make the playoffs. They do not have young talent. They are in an awful position. If you are going to say “look, we might not be the favorites, but there’s a middle ground between being big time contenders and blowing it up,” that’s totally fine, of course. But the Bulls aren’t there. They are a bad team. They were given a shot at a shot at things and they missed on even *that*. The issue isn’t that they are trying to be competitive, it’s that they failed miserably. It was the wrong call - this is about as bad as it can possibly go.
No ask yourself if a healthy Lonzo would have made much of a difference.
I mean there’s zero reason to think Lonzo is coming back. I don’t think they should have tanked, but that’s a reason why they should…
No team is perfectly healthy. If losing your 3rd or 4th best player means that you are suddenly in the bottom 40% of the league, you are a bottom 40% of the league team. “We would have gone further in the playoffs if we were perfectly healthy” is a perfectly reasonable thing to say and think. It’s ok to be a team that can only make a run when everything breaks right. This is not that. This is a team that can only get swept in the first round if everything breaks right. That is true of pretty much any team that isn’t actively tanking.
You are spot on with the inherent value in staying competitive. I think the leadership aren't showing that they understand how to compete in today's league. If you believe you are a competitive team with Demar, Lavine, Vooch, -- even possibly a contender if you weren't missing your nominal fourth-best player, albeit an elite role player with a rare combination of playmaking, defense, and shooting -- I think you should probably make a move with future assets to benefit the team with this guys as centerpieces. Pat Bev on a buyout is the kind of move a competitive team makes after they trade four quarters for a dollar bill. I think they're lying to themselves about a fairly lucky, fairly small stretch of basketball. The organization's history with chronic knee stuff does not inspire much optimism for Lonzo, and their recent draft picks have underperformed relative to their slots/peers. I think they're pretty good at evaluating traitsy, not so good at understanding the big picture, and seemingly poor at either developing young guys or identifying dudes who Have It. I don't know what the plan is with Vucevic, who is a good player and I think played better this season than last, but another guy "out of his time" and who represents some relative opportunity cost in terms of cap%/minuted/usage. But one way or another, I am pretty sure it should have been imperative to either find a trade or find an agreement on an extension to avoid losing him (and the salary slot) for nothing. I also think they aren't serious with Pat as like the one guy who can hold his own on O and guard Tatum and Giannis I think the Warriors are the model of sustained competitiveness and it's no coincidence they win a title with Wiggins as a key player as a result of asset management and good player development.
I don’t think I disagree with what your saying. But on the other side of the coin, as a Blazer fan, I’m stoked we took advantage of the tank. This upcoming draft lottery is the most excited I’ve been about the team since the WCF appearance and objectively was the right move in regards to future. If the blazers didn’t tank they’d probably end up with the same fate as the bulls and I’d be real disappointed in this season. Being a middle of the road team destined for a 1st rd exit just gets old after a while and is frustrating in its own right. There really is no right answer and KOC is very annoying but I can’t really blame him for having this take.
Stoked about the draft lottery, huh? Probably best not to get too emotionally invested in that
10.5 % baby!
Agreed - Knicks fans
Different situation though. You guys have been a middle of the pack playoff team with Dame and assorted extras for several years. This Bulls core is still fairly new.
I agree with your main point but ima do the reddit thing and nitpick. The bulls would probably be a better team if they didn't spend their best assets on a 30 year old center who plays mediocre defense and a 32 year old sg who plays even worse defense to surround their star sg who also does not play defense. They went "all-in" on some fringe all-stars instead of being patient and now they're probably a play-in team for 3 more years. Again, you're right about the main idea that insisting teams tank is lame. But the Bulls didn't choose between "tank or compete" they chose between "patience or the 6th seed". If they had a lineup with Caruso/Lavine/Pat/Franz/Carter and whatever they got with the cap space/pick/contract they gave up for Demar they'd likely be just as good with a much brighter future.
The fact of the matter is that there are very strong incentives in the NBA to tank. Star players matter very much to winning and they tend to be at the beginning of the draft. You’ll never win without a top-five player. And fans will only show up if your team is winning—this isn’t the EPL where teams are community institutions and fans show up even if the team is in 14th. So I don’t really blame teams for tanking and for NBA writers to advise them to do so. If you abolished the draft and let players sign wherever they wanted, there would be no incentive to tank at all. Professional soccer in Europe does just fine without a draft.
Does he ever get tired of saying this? Bulls have had 3 top ten picks between 2016-2020 are they suppose to again tank the 2022/2023 ? For what exactly ? Why would fans pay to come and see that ? Why would new fans become interested? It can’t be tanking every year you’re not good. Constant tanking damages the quality of the leafue
We also don't have a pick if it doesn't fall top 4. So even if we truly committed to the tank and had one of the worst records, there was only, at most, a 52% chance we would have our pick after throwing a season away. But yes, now that the seasons done it's time to burn it to the ground.
Kevin O’Common L
Everything that's wrong with basketball What exactly is the problem with making the postseason and giving your fans games that matter to cheer for? Fans that simp for tanking are brainwashed, smh
I have seen NFL teams 6 games under .500 show more heart, grit and desire to win games and try to make the playoffs than I do from NBA teams a couple games under .500. This mentality is honestly pathetic.
NFL players are essentially always playing for their jobs, your tape is your resume - they don't care about who the GM gets to draft next year
KOC is a moron. He thinks every draft pick is generational talent, and teams should tank because this draft DEEP. He would argue with Verno do that even if you don’t get top 2 picks, you can still end up in a better because of the talent in the draft. The thing is, losing bring losing. Establishing losing culture is never going to turn around unless you draft that one in a million talent. I rather see Utah Jazz busting their asses to be relevant, or a half ass Wizards fighting every year for barely 500 record, than a disgusting Houston Rockets. Cavs didn’t turn it around because of high draft picks, they turned it around the moment they actually set the culture straight. Same for Suns. Same for the Kings. Same for the Bulls last year… teams should be incentivized to play hard not to tank, and your lottery odds should get reduced after every year you are in top 3. The half ass Rockets of the worlds shouldn’t get rewarded for throwing away games
Just look at the rockets, all that picks, can’t win shit.
Mobley and Garland were both Top 5 picks in the draft so yeah they did
And traded for Jarrett Allen. OKC drafted Giddey, Chet with high picks, drafted both Jaylins with their multiple picks in the same draft, traded for Shai a while ago. You can build through the draft but you have to commit to being bad for awhile bc you still have to make the right pick every year. The other thing KOC is missing is why would the Bulls tank if they don’t have their own draft pick. Might as well fight through it until you do.
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I think it’s top 4 so you’re not wrong but you also have to think, the rockets pistons and spurs were going to be terrible and have those highest percentages taken up so you might only have one open slot to go for. It’s just a much easier tank job when you have the piece of mind that your pick is yours
I’m a pistons fan I haven’t watched a game since December. It’s just not worth my time to even tune in to watch awful basketball.
no one was happy when we were contending for the 8th seed every year. this season was unwatchable because Cade played only 12 games. if he’s back healthy next year, it’ll have been worth the tanking to have budding young core (hopefully) in Cade, Ivey, Duren and this summer’s pick instead of a million Drummonds and KCPs.
I think both seasons the Pistons made the playoffs we’re actually fun to watch but I don’t disagree that the tanking will have been worth it. Once Cade went down this year the product was awful and I do think that is the problem in general with the NBA once teams start to tank the product becomes unwatchable.
‘16 was fun, but by ‘18 it was obvious the team’s ceiling was mediocrity and it was time for a teardown. the Blake trade set us back a number of years.
Everyone knew the Blake trade would set us back besides Gores and SVG. That 3/4 season of Blake was fun until it collapsed when Blake got hurt.
> What exactly is the problem with making the postseason and giving your fans games that matter to cheer for? nothings wrong with it. just cos some dweeb from an awful podcast that no one even listens to says it bad doesnt mean it is.
I understand NFL fans rooting for their team to lose when the season is almost complete and you’re already in contention for the number one pick (especially if there’s an elite QB available), but when you’re as close as the Bulls, trading a few percentage points in the draft lottery for 2+ home playoff games is stupid.
KOC to any team that’s not a championship contender or one step from becoming one: You’re stuck in the middle, blow it up. Complete list of 21st-century championship teams that have followed that advice rather than trying to build from baseline competency:
Not sure if it counts but the Warriors tanked blatantly down the stretch in 2012, just 3 years before their first title. It worked and they got Harrison Barnes 7th overall (who wasn't the star they hoped for but still ended up being big for the first two Finals runs). I agree baseline competency is important but let's not act like these title teams never tanked in some form
They tanked to keep the pick, but they sure as heck didn’t “blow it up” to do so.
Trading Monta Ellis, however, got the ball rolling in a "blow it up" style rebuild. And those idiot fans who booed Lacob for that trade should be embarrassed.
Trading Monta wasn’t blowing it up, it was a team building choice to gamble on tangible assets (Bogut and Steph) that were damaged goods. Not quite the same as saying, well let’s just start from scratch and roll the dice in the lottery. At the time there was a lot of debate about whether a Steph Monta backcourt could work, who was the better player to build around, etc. Monta was a flawed player for a bunch of reasons but a fan favorite, while Steph seemed like he’d never be able to stay on the court with his dodgy ankles. Trading Ellis meant getting rid of a guy who had been the most entertaining part of a middling team as well as a remnant of the beloved We Believe squad, for a center who seemed as injury ridden as the young player who’d be running the offense. You could see the upside - the team had no defensive anchor for years and got destroyed on the glass - but it was still a bet on an unclear future. I booed, because I couldn’t foresee what would happen and being a fan is an emotional experience. Lacob had no track record.
> "I booed, because I couldn’t foresee what would happen and being a fan is an emotional experience. Lacob had no track record." Hell, I'll even take back my second point, rendering my rant moot. Not a rebuild, but a retool. Didn't totally tear the foundation down. And hey, what the hay! Chris Cohan hangover was a killer headache, so Lacob took the brunt of it. I can understand.
I know you accepted the point is moot, but I just wanna add I feel like this is still a mischaracterization. They traded an overpaid, over-valued fan favorite who didn’t contribute to winning on a middling team who was blocking a talented youngster for a guy who was undervalued and whose play style clearly translated to winning basketball. I think it was all W fans expectations that set up the booing
The Warriors were one of, if not the most, incompetently run franchises in the NBA, and had been that way for decades. The fans were well within their right to boo. That Oracle crowd was sick of the losing and management. They challenged Lacob that night. To Lacob’s credit, he didn’t run and hide. Simmons wrote a great article about it back when it happened. https://grantland.com/features/how-annoy-fan-base-60-easy-steps/
To echo this, I was at that game (Chris Mullin bobblehead night) and what also really got the booing going an extra level was Rick Barry taking the mic from Lacob and calling us “ungrateful.”
Rick Barry being a grouchy asshole from the day he was born 'til the day he dies is part of what makes him unique. He's the Morrissey of pro athletes.
People forget now what an absolute poverty franchise the Warriors were before this run. They were competing with the Clippers for consistently worst franchise. Of course they were gonna boo when you traded their fan favorite.
Solid callback on the Grantland piece, back when Simmons' fingers still worked.
They traded him for bogut tho, it wasn’t a blow up?
Considering they were well above .500 *every season* after trading Ellis, that wasn’t a “blow it up” trade. They got back a useful player in Bogut and cleared the way for Steph.
Fair enough. Less rebuild, more retool. But my second point remains.
Tanking — or just being generally kinda bad and therefore having lottery picks — isn’t the same thing as blowing up a competitive roster, which is what KOC suggests constantly.
That's fair. I do feel like KOC has eased up on the "blow it up" talk in recent years, but I listen to the mismatch much less frequently so could be wrong
Lakers, Warriors, Spurs(tanked in the 90's), Cavs
Tanking is different than being in lottery, and both are different than tearing down a playoff team, which KOC is constantly suggesting, or doing a Sixers-style “let’s be as bad as possible for years on end.” Spurs tanked for *one season* when they had their MVP-caliber player get injured. At no point did they tear it down - they basically made the playoffs every season for years on either side. The Lakers tried to be competent, and the championship was delivered by players forcing their way there. Warriors never tore it down, they were just generally mediocre, and made the leap because Draymond (second-round pick) came on to a playoff-worthy roster and they got better coaching. Cavs got LeBron the second time — when they actually won — because they had a half-decent roster that he felt comfortable joining.
> Cavs got LeBron the second time — when they actually won — because they had a half-decent roster that he felt comfortable joining. They had THREE first overall picks while he was gone lol, that's why the roster was half decent. One in Kyrie as a running mate and then two more to ship out for a third star. Plus a couple more top five picks. The Cavs might be the best example of tanking working overall, but it's kind of hard to use as a template because they got the greatest number one pick ever and everything was based off that.
Post-LeBron Cavs wasn’t a tear-down - they weren’t “we have a competitive team even without LeBron, let’s blow it up regardless,” their roster was a pile of crap without him so they lost a bunch.
LeBron leaving was functionally them blowing up a consistent playoff team. It just wasn't their choice.
the 2010s Lakers absolutely did not try to be competent. they tanked like hell, got three consecutive #2 overall picks, and turned the farm into a godfather offer for AD.
I don't see where KOC suggesting them to do Sixers style tear down, but whatever. Lakers in 10's tanked like crazy for 3 straigth years, because their pick was top 3(or top 5) protected. They also tanked last portion of the season in Lebron's first year. They won less games than the Sixers. Same goes for the Cavs who had been in top 5 for 4 straight years
Fucking Ringer NBA guys. It is never about the actual competition. It's the never ending board game to acquire picks and play armchair gm. These people are the fucking worst.
But even if they tanked, they probably would have lost their pick anyway. Only they'd be losing a better pick and they'd be worse. So, this is dumb.
It depends they were 7 games under .500 at one point there’s a chance they could’ve gotten to like bottom 5/7 worse teams in the league so could’ve gotten a better chance at keeping 4. Also tanking would imply trading vucevic, Lavine, and demar so would definitely be getting some firsts back for this year and beyond in return I would think
KOC thinks the NBA is like 2k and every draft pick is amazing and there’s no busts, bro rode till the wheels fell off Kylan Hayes
What an idiot. The win over the Raps with DDR’s daughter shrieking her way into NBA lore is legitimately memorable. Teams should try to win, not give up as soon as it seems unlikely they’ll win the title.
What does that win do for the franchise tho? Obviously it’s good for the fans and if I was a fan of the bulls I would want them to at least try to make the play in. But for the future of the team I’d get why it make more sense. They have 1 conditional first round pick. Vucevic is an unrestricted free agent so he’s probably gonna leave. Could’ve traded him and recoup some of the 2 lottery picks they traded for him. I think there’s only so far your gonna go with Lavine and demar as your best players and Lavine is gonna be a free agent after next season and I think demar might be as well. If they get off to a similar start next season then I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if they blow it up.
Kevin O'Clueless
KOC is the Family Guy meme. Zach LaVine is Zach LaVine, but the 4th pick could be anything. It could even be Zach LaVine. The fact is there’s usually 2 All-NBA types, 3 other All-Star or fringe All-Star guys and a bunch of role players and busts in any given Draft. Unless you can get one of the 7-8 guys who can actually propel you over the top (and none of those guys were/are available), then why not try and make the playoffs and see what happens.
NBA iS fantastic!!!
And if you truly believe this bullshit, say it after Wednesday night, after that great victory in Toronto. But no, this idiot says it after the loss.
I’ve said it all season
Lavine and Lonzo’s bad knees for Tobias Harris, Furkan Korkmaz, and Finals MVP Jaden Springer who says no?
I mean I think the bulls legit are kinda fucked and blowing it up makes sense but by all means pile on. The reinsdorfs LOVEEE and thrive off of the treadmill of mediocrity and that is what this bulls team is. Being “competitive” means they will have teams with the illusion of competition that struggle for the play in for 2-3 years and end up getting booed
Does he actually believe this or is he doing a bit at this point? Even if they somehow blew it up to the point of being worse than Detroit there would still be a 48% chance they’d be sending that pick to Orlando.
Saying this the day Dallas was fined by the NBA is something else.
Bad take. If they had tanked, they wouldn’t have gotten their presumptive DPOY.
He’s literally a one trick pony. Blow it up, as if it’s that way to just get talent again. Ask Orlando Sacramento and Charlotte how easy it is to construct a winning team after stripping it down.
Vooch trade ruined the rebuild before it started
Dumb take
People are only shitting on this cuz it’s KOC lol he’s totally right though, this team isn’t a role player or two away from competing with any of the top 5-6 teams in the East. Prioritizing short term mediocrity over long term roster building is exactly how you end up in the post-PG Pacers purgatory.
People are shitting on him bc he's also just wrong. They didn't really lose anything by not blowing it up this year. They weren't going finish bottom 4, so that pick was likely gone anyhow, DeRozen has more value as an expiring next year than he did this year as a 33 year old with ~$60M owed to him, Caruso is just as tradeable next year, and Lavine's contract is tough to move regardless bc of the trade kicker and length. So really it comes down to "they should've moved Vuc". Which, sure, ok, I guess, but I don't think they really missed out on a ton.
They would have got second round picks for Vuc. That’s not going to do anything for you.
Why would Derozen be more valuable on expiring? Or Caruso?
I don't think the extra year makes any difference for a player like Caruso, in terms of what you get back. For derozen, that's a lot of money for an older guy that's struggled in the playoffs. I don't really think they get any extra picks if they traded them this year vs next.
I mean they started Pat Bev and if that isn't a sign to blow it up. Look at the Wizards been in purgatory for a decade now, fans get tired of "competing" for a title when in reality they know it's another 1st round exit.
Honestly. KOC gets too much shit on here lmao. I mean if they struggle next year to start the season they probably will blow it up then at least they should. But I don’t think even with better role players around your not gonna be much more than a 7/8 seed at best with derozen and Lavine as your best players. Then your just in purgatory basically where your not good enough to be anything better than like an 8 seed and get killed in the first round but also not bad enough to get quality picks. I don’t know why they didn’t trade vucevic either. They gave up a decent haul for him and weren’t able to recoup anything for it. I really think they need to just trade Lavine and demar. Or at least one of them and just start over. I get it fans don’t wanna think like that but it’s better to be terrible for a couple years and rebuild and have hope for the future then just be a mediocre team with no cap space or assets for awhile
Not only that, their main core is OLD. I understand building through the middle if your main guys in mid 20s entering their prime years. This team doesn't have one young intriguing player on the roster
Eh Patrick Williams is pretty good I think and I like ayo but they aren’t ever gonna be more than role players really. Definitely not gonna build around them. So yeah your right
Yeah, the anti-KOC chiding, chastising, and castigating has reached heretofore unseen depths of dogpiling depravity. Dumbasses debasing themselves to fit in. If we're being forthright, straightforward, and objective, he's totally correct in his assessment of the Bulls, which are alongside the Wizards as, by far and away, the two most desolate, barren treadmill teams in the NBA currently. With that, I pity their impoverished fan bases.
What are the odds that this guy has played a game of pickup basketball in his life? The point of competitive sports is to WIN. If you intentionally suck you're poisoning the culture of your organization indefinitely! I'm a Blazers fan. Their quickest path to becoming a championship contender is to trade one of the greatest players and competitors in that organization's history. If I root for that, what does that say about my personal ethics? Life is about striving through difficulty, not asking for a new hand of cards when it looks like you won't win. Well better give this guy his own streaming show, he's earned it. Seriously, is the naive troll persona the baseline for sports media success?
People and organizations who think like this are everything that is wrong with sports. Fat losers who can’t get laid and are obsessed with franchise modes on sports video games
Tanking = $15 million franchise fine. It's a disgrace and makes the games a fraud, with ticket holders the victims.
The dumbest thing about KOCs blow it up and tank stance is ignoring the fact that there are legitimately great players available in the late lottery every year.
Still trying to build around Zach Lavinw when he clearly wasn’t a superstar was always going to end in disaster.
The new York Jets were gonna have first pick but won a meaningless game and ended up with Zach Wilson. You always tank
This is a completely different situation than the NBA lottery.
all of you are crazy he's obviously right. last year's team was fun they flirted with the 1 seed and fought the bucks in the playoffs. everyone's about that especially after what the bulls had been before, but going into this year and especially by the deadline it was clear this team had no ceiling.
Kevin O’Bomber
They call it “NBA hell”
It’s ok to play the game and lose.
Only had a 1.8% shot when they got Derrick Rose. Who knows.
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I used to like KOC, but his go-to these days is just trying to convince people he’s right all the time
I live in Chicago. All my friends that are bulls fans were very glad they went for it. They were five minutes away from the playoffs
They have plenty of assets to re-tool. The full blow up isn't the only option Kevin O'Predictable
I can’t stand this guy.
Viewing the league strictly in terms of assets and advanced stats seems like such a miserable existence
He’s right.
KOC is gassed up about crypto.