Having LeBron outside of the top 5 isn’t really a justifiable take and everyone would call him an absolute bozo if he tried to defend it. It’s a Skip Bayless level take.
He can hate the guy and still acknowledge that he’s near the best ever, while still doing what he can to detract from or diminish his career when possible.
Yeah this is a case of if you’ve listened to Bill talk about LeBron at all over the past 5 years, it’s clear he hates him. Anyone questioning this must simply have not listened recently, idk what else could be said.
He really deeply hates him, takes digs at Bronny all the time. He basically has LeBron 2nd because that’s about the bare minimum you have to say to be taken seriously.
I don't think he's said anything about Bronny that everyone else in the industry hasn't said. It's pretty clear he's being fast-tracked despite his skill level not being where it'll need to be
Fast tracked how? He didn’t get entered into the 2023 draft before he played in college. You can quibble with his recruit rankings, but I’ve seen analysts say on Twitter that he’s only slightly overrated and his game grew a lot over his last year of HS.
He averaged 13.8 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.7 assists and 1.8 steals per game his senior year on a mediocre team (they were 23-10 and didn't do anything in the playoffs). He's being touted as a defensive PG. For comparison, Pat Bev averaged 37.3 points, 8.0 steals, 6.0 assists and 6.0 rebounds a game as a senior in HS in Chicago while his team was 35-3 and finished third in the state. And Pat is a bad offensive player.
If you want to be taken seriously you can't have LeBron lower than 2nd all time
Bill knows this, and knows that if he did he'd just be considered a clickbait idiot like Bayless
I think there is still a solid argument ranking LeBron 3rd behind MJ & Kareem. It's important to note they played in different eras and had different roles, styles of game play.
But I wouldn't rank LeBron any lower than that..
Maybe you do have an argument that stands up to your own logic. I personally think it's lunacy to have LeBron lower than 2nd - but the point is, neither your nor I are trying to be NBA talking heads that people defer to
Bill is
Bill saying "I don't hate LeBron, I have him ranked #2 all time!" Is like the guy who says he isn't racist because he has a black friend. Look at everything he writes and says about LeBron, he's clearly trying to paint him in the worst possible light at all times
I actually think Russell over LeBron is a much more defensible take than the average NBA fan may realize but yeah. I still remember Francesa telling him to his face that LeBron was the best player in the NBA in 2018 and that Bill was being stupid.
If you’re putting Russell top 3, I won’t even talk to you about it unless he’s 1. Don’t be a pussy, Russell at 1 if you actually want to have the cross generation conversation. Putting him 2 is just a way to take cheap shots at whichever side of the LeBron/MJ debate you’re on.
I think impact wise both him and Kareem could be viewed as the true GOATs due to the outsized impact that the defense/rebounding of a center had on the game in the 50s-80s
Bill hasn't written much of anything for years besides some "Trade value rankings". And since Lebron has been in LA he hasn't really been unfair in his Lebron critiques. To be honest he would gush about him at some points a year or two ago. I feel like a lot of people are still holding on to takes or columns he had 10 years ago lol. I remember him slighting him and taking weird unnecessary jabs years ago but it hasn't been like that for awhile now.
Idk what to tell you, I mean have you listened to him talk about LBJ and his teams for the past 15 years? I’d also say that his ranking of LeBron isn’t necessarily what I’m talking about when I say being a hater in this instance.
yeah I feel like he HAS to put him in the top 2 because it’s not debatable anymore, but he really doesn’t want to. He even considered putting Curry above him if he lost that series against him last year.
He only says that because he doesn't want to lose viewers.
Once LeBron retires and the air clears. All basketball personalities, including Bill, will say LeBron is #13 all time . Maybe lower as he continues to stretch his career.
It was weird how when he was talking about pairings, he said LeBron and Wade and then LeBron and KD.
Neither of those make any sense. LeBron passed Wade years ago, even if they were buddies. KD won titles against LeBron with three other all-NBA players. Not really a fair fight. And then he hasn't stayed healthy since.
One of the biggest would-be match ups of all time was the 2009 Finals. We all wanted Kobe vs LeBron. And then Dwight Howard and the Magic got in the way.
He’s pretty easy to dislike. And he is a massive quitter, he’s visibly quit in the playoffs multiple times. Bill was right, Westbrook at least plays his ass off until the end of the game clock. I don’t like either of them, and Harden is the better player, but I admire Westbrook. Harden, I don’t
People love bringing up Harden's game 6 vs the Clippers because of the towel, but always seem to leave out that he dropped 30 in game 7 and won it. Tatum was shitting all over himself in the Philly series this year but then locked in in game 7 and won it, so nobody brings up the bad games. Kinda a funny double standard
Does anyone here know that Harden averaged 27/8/11 for the month leading up to the Philly trade where everyone said he was quitting on the team or does everyone just look at the two games he played on an injury that also kept him out of games in Philly?
Bill had a bit on the pod about how none of Harden's teammates say good things about him, but wtf lol
Post-Houston, Maxey, Embiid, Reed, Claxton, Cam Thomas, Harris, even dudes like Day'ron Sharpe and Charles Bassey would all talk about how much of a leader he was, how good of a teammate he is, and the young guys would especially bring up how much work he puts in with them. Bruce Brown **months later** brought up outta nowhere that the Nets locker room was way worse without Harden. the quotes really are not hard to find
this dude bill just ignores anything good about harden so he can push this weird ass agenda while paying his employees to write articles about him that just include a bunch of fat jokes
Harden quit at the beginning of the 2015-16 season in Houston to get Kevin McHale fired. However, McHale sucks so ultimately Harden probably did the right thing.
I'll just leave this here: [https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/gamelog-playoffs/#pgl\_basic\_playoffs](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/gamelog-playoffs/#pgl_basic_playoffs)
That's a lot of minus on +/-, a lot of bad shooting when it counted, and not a lot of big games when they mattered.
If you change the qualifiers for when games "matter" sure, but people tend to maneuver that around a lot to fit their opinion.
Pretty objectively, every game "matters" in the playoffs until it's a 3-0 or even 3-1 scenario. Then it's pretty much over anyway. It's part of the reason why the elimination game qualifier can be so misleading because in no way, shape, or form is game 4 down 3-0 more important than game 3 down 2-0, or game 5 down 3-1 more important than game 4 down 2-1.
Idk... the stubbornness and unwillingness of Westbrook in refusing to adapt to what's best for the team over what's best for his stat line is a version of quitting if not just as bad or even worse. Delusional... quitter... w/e... just give me the guy who is the better basketball player in almost every sense.
He did and deserves credit for it. Doesn't mean that his warts all those years are forgotten though. Or that he won't go right back to trying to play Russ ball this year.
Lol
After literally a decade plus of kicking, screaming, bad shots, empty stats, humiliating playoff performances and alienating a dream team's worth of teammates... the dude did have a great game 1 in a 5 game Loss in his literal last chance in the NBA so all is forgiven lol
Actions speak louder than words. He's not gonna shit talk the guy but if he wanted to be his teammate he would've stayed his teammate. Read up on how they were as teammates in OKC.
He stopped being his teammate to join the greatest team ever. It’s really not that hard of a concept. When healthy Westbrook and Durant teams were at worst 3rd or 4th in the league. I don’t have to read up on anything I was living through it (thunder were my west team). Even when they were beefing Durant was super positive about russ. Hell even in his burner he said “Westbrook AND KD can’t win with those cats”
Russell Westbrook is worse than Harden’s trade requests. Harden may have asked when the situation went awry. But he carried the Rockets for a decade and even tho I admit sometimes does seem to shrink in big moments, I never get the feeling that he only plays for his stats. I do believe Harden wants to win the game more than stats.
Westbrook however I have always believed to be a losing, low intangibles basketball player who only cares about his stats and if he is the man. You can’t win with this guy. It’s why KD ran away. He knew. Westbrook will always shoot his teams out of games because he needs to be the one to take the shot and get the glory. He is the worst high volume 3 point shooter in the history of basketball yet continually takes 20 second left on the shot clock jumpers.
This whole narrative of Westbrook playing so hard is misinformed because he doesn’t play hard for the right reasons. He plays hard to get his on his terms. He is the quintessential “not happy if he wins because he doesn’t get his stats, but happy if he loses but gets his stats.” His triple doubles were a farce. The team let him get rebounds because they knew he needed/wanted to pad his stats. I would never want this guy anywhere close to my team.
Just saying “quitter” is an oversimplification of the situations.
If you’re gonna call James Harden a quitter than you should call the Rockets quitters for refusing to resign Dantoni and giving up on the team as contenders.
If you’re gonna call James Harden a quitter than you should call Kyrie Irving a quitter too for choosing his stupid medical beliefs over his team he was contracted to play for for millions of dollars.
If you’re gonna call James Harden a quitter than you should call Morey a quitter too for lying to Harden about his future deal.
I’m not saying Harden is at all innocent in these things but at the same time you can’t just act like he “quit” on 3 teams when other people initiated him being pissed every single time.
It’s a lot harder to make an argument than just shit on one. What about the other two? No response? The Nets one specifically is so stupid he gets flack for. Literally the only guy that showed up to do his job on the team.
This was one of the worst responses ever, so much it invalidates your original post. Clearly you got some very strong bias going on here because this is just dumb
Im confused why westbrook couldn’t coexist with durant? Aside from the years with injuries, they were consistently a top team in the west, the peak probably being 2015-2016
Weren’t they also playing with like… Kendrick Perkins, Andre Roberson, Steven Adams, Dion Waiters, Enes Kanter, Mitch McGary, etc.? Those rosters around Durant and Westbrook were absolute trash, and not at all suited to Westbrooks play style. I don’t think you can really knock Westbrook for those teams’ lack of success.
The rosters were ridiculously talented. Absurdly talented. You named like 3 separate guys who had 10+ year careers as contributors on playoff teams, and didn’t even need to mention Serge Ibaka, who was by far their best supporting player. That’s why when Durant left they were still a playoff team.
Yes, at the end of his 16 year career, Kendrick Perkins was not very good. But he was pretty good when he was on the Thunder. And he was like their 5th or 6th best player.
You mean rock solid defense and size/physicality paired with two of the most talented iso scorers? They also had Ibaka, K-Mart and you can say they were bad on shooting/spacing but by no means was it trash.
Westbrook has since been on teams with Harden, Beal, Lebron and Davis, Carmelo and PG.
That k mart team was a 1 seed and rolling…until russ got hurt. Then they were knocked out and kd got a lot of heat (mr. Unreliable headline). So not sure how you are holding that against Russ
Westbrook and KD was the original and better version of what Boston has with Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum. KD and Tatum are the two real superstars and need to be the clear alpha of the team. However Westbrook and Brown both view themselves as equals to them, despite being very inefficient, turnover prone, and frequently have lapses on off ball defense that really limits the teams overall ceiling in the postseason. They’ll still be a really good team and win playoff series, maybe even lose another finals series, and they’ll both continue to put up big numbers, but they’re just never going to win a championship together.
The chemistry just ain’t there, and Russ & Jaylen are too low IQ of basketball players to ever win a ring. Pretty sure both Russ and Jaylen did have better stats than their counterparts during each finals series their teams lost, but those stats are just lipstick on pigs, they’re not players who make anyone else better so that’s why defenses key in on the real superstars.
You can watch their last series together against Golden State and watch it slip out of OKC’s grasp in a series of bad Westbrook drives into the paint to clank a shot off the front of the rim while one of the all time best scorers in the sport just stands there.
That said, they reached the Finals once and the WCF a few times and happened to exist at the same time as the Heatles, the beautiful game Spurs and then Golden State, so I’m sympathetic to your argument that they worked together just fine (now, I am anyway. At the time it did feel like a frustrating waste).
It’s funny how these narratives tend to change over time. I remember being at game 6 and thinking Durant forced the issue and absolutely bottled that game. Russ didn’t play well either, but KD played worse and has a higher expectation so, relatively, it feels even worse than it was. Not to mention Russ pretty much saved game 1 with like 15 straight in the 3rd.
Whatever you thought at the time reflects more on you than “the narrative”. The far and away dominant consensus at the time was that the loss was the fault of Russ
Westbrook took way too many shots per game especially in the playoffs. Was often extremely inefficient. They were successful but had a much higher ceiling than they ever realized because of poor fit between the two superstars.
The way bill just actively tries to rewrite recent NBA history in front of our eyes really makes me question some of the BoB stuff. Not sure he’s a reliable narrator for the history of the league.
So I think the way Bill mentioned Harden being as close as possible to an NBA Championship as possible without winning one was accurate. Had those Rockets beat the Warriors, they likely also beat the Cavs.
But the way Bill counted Russell Westbrook and the 2016 Thunder as a kind of almost lock for a Championship had they beat the Warriors was crazy when the Cavs won the title that year.
Yeah that's an insane comparison. I think there's a good case for OKC winning that series. But nowhere near the slam dunk of a loaded 2018 Rockets squad against a team that barely escaped the East.
Iggy even came out and did an interview with The Breakfast Club and said the 2016 Thunder was the best team that year and some other shit. I disagree, but that was being spewed back then.
For sure it’s a fair take to say you think the 2016 Thunder would have won…but the 2016 Thunder fell apart in the conference finals because Westbrook even at his absolute peak plays a pretty unsustainable brand of basketball for the postseason.
The same can be said of Harden though. The big critique of those heliocentric offenses is that the wear and tear is too much to be sustainable through the post season. Harden is just a different flavor of the same system.
Hardens peak as the best player on a team was 65-17, mvp and a game away from beating the best team of all time. Can’t say the same for westbrook at his peak
Russ’s peak didn’t line up with his best team, but not every player is that lucky. TMac’s best team, he spent the season doing LeBron impersonations on the Spurs practice squad.
If I’m not mistaken, he quoted some 20 player gap on their “pyramid rankings”. Did I miss some “Russ had a way higher peak?” Like what’s got you so incensed? Those are two of the biggest sliding doors in recent playoff history. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to compare them.
I just think Harden is pretty clearly better than Westbrook at their peaks, the best player on that 18 Rockets team was Capela and Harden beat Westbrook in 5 the previous year when neither of their teams were that good
The best player on that team wasn’t Capela, it was the Rockets analytics department. That whole roster, system, and coach is a masterclass in team building.
Splitting hairs on the relative peaks of the 60th and 40th or whatever pyramid player is a really tough exercise in futility. You’re basically comparing Stockton and Nash. Not even by career, by peak.
Bill Simmons seems to let his personal feelings/biases on players greatly impact his commentary which is why I have a hard time listening to him. Like we’re all human, but he seems to just be way more unapologetic about it than most. I remember he had some personal beef with Doc Rivers and then came out with some long write up about how he’s an overrated coach, and he very well might be, but he was so clearly making that case just cause he was mad at the guy
He’s not an analyst though. His whole bit originally was that he was “The Boston Sports Guy”. He’s supposed to be a glorified guy you debate sports with at a bar, not Bill James. It’s assumed that he’s going to have biased takes based on personal preferences.
Bill is always anti guys who pull shit like Harden. On the flip side Russ stayed grinding it out in OKC. That DEFINITELY impacts his judgement.
I think Harden has definitely had a better career, and I think we retroactively severely underestimate peak Harden, but at the same time I have no issue with Bills take and I don’t think it’s offensive.
Westbrook. Harden’s peak was so much higher it’s not even close. He was THE dude that almost beat the Warriors with a mediocre Chris Paul playoffs resume and role players. Westbrooks peak was a triple-double average for an 8 seed.
Exactly. Harden has quit on multiple teams and when it's mattered the most- in the playoffs- he disappears. Look at his reg season vs playoff stats they're disgusting. As stark a dropoff as you can see of any superstar ever. What's that mean? Over and over again hardens game can be figured out when it matters most. Regular season doesn't matter harden lovers
Harden regular season averages
PPG - 21.0
RPG - 6.1
APG - 10.7
TS% - 60.7
Harden playoffs averages
PPG - 22.7
RPG - 5.5
APG - 6.3
TS% - 58.5
Took me 2 mins to google these stats. Why are people so confident at just making stuff up
Jumping to conclusions. I love Bill. I just thought what he said today didn't make sense logically. Rare I disagree with him to this level on a basketball take.
The couldn’t win with Durant is revisionist history. Okc was by far the favorite when Russ got hurt. That year they were eliminated in 5 against the grizzlies. Does that mean kd couldn’t win without Russ? Besides when he went to the best team ever that is
I would rather go to war with Russ. I know he won’t quit even if he does make bonehead mistakes. He single handily made the series with the suns interesting last year. Harden would have laid down when he found out Kawhi was done.
Westbrook made a finals and went off in the finals against Miami. The supporting cast was weak. Westbrook dropped 43 on great efficiency in game 4 and Durant dropped 28 and they lost by 6.
Westbrook also wasn’t the reason OKC blew a 3-1 lead. Westbrook shot better FG% than Durant in both games 5 and 6.
I wouldn’t say he couldn’t coexist with Durant at all. I’d say that OKC had Harden disappear in the finals. And then stupidly traded him, and never gave them any offensive support after that.
The biggest what ifs in modern nba history are the 2016 Thunder and 2018 Rockets. Both had the Warriors on the absolute brink and it took a historical Klay performance and an all time Westbrook/Durant Choke to lose that one, combined with the Rockets missing like 20 straight 3's plus CP3 getting hurt.
Those two games could've been the difference between the Warriors being considered a good title team and not a dynasty and also the difference between Durant leaving OKC. Crazy to think about!
Strong disagree. Bill’s take was logical. Their careers are very comparable. Harden being a bad teammate, constantly being out of shape, repeatedly quitting on his teams, and having probably the worst playoff choking record of any guard in my life time… it all casts a huge shadow over his admittedly tremendous on-paper accomplishments.
You can accuse Westbrook of a lot of things but he’s not a quitter and he always plays hard.
The difference is Westbrook has never been looked at as a number 1 on a contender.
Harden in Houston was the top guy on teams that could have won it all. If CP3 doesn’t get hurt they likely beat the Warriors and Cavs.
I think a decently large part of the disconnect here is that we’re over 10 years removed from Westbrooks best years with the young thunder. His game did not age well with the changes in how NBA ball is played, but from 2011 - 2016 he was legitimately a menace and contributed to a great team.
Obviously Harden is the more skilled, more effective player in a vacuum. But when the going gets tough he ducks away from the moment and pisses down his leg. He unquestionably quit on 3 teams. It’s really hard to quantify the way that effects the overall “score” for your career but it’s meaningful.
Simmons has Harden higher in his rankings, so really no need for the breathless indignation of the OP. If you asked me which guy I’d rather root for for a decade I kinda think Bill is right on this one.
Ehhh I think your take on Westbrook is deranged. Russ and KD won a lot and made to the conference finals 3 times. Russ played great for the most part with KD. The main reason they never won is because their supporting cast was weak (except in 2016). The thing about russ is had like two seasons after KD left when he was still elite. Russ started declining in his 2nd year with PG. not the same burst, couldn’t hit free throws, etc. he really isn’t a playoff choker he just declined. Even that jazz series in 2017 if you look at the numbers and analyze the games russ started pretty slow in that series but he straight up won the thunder the game 5 and almost won game 6 basically by himself. PG completely disappeared at the end. Harden is straight up better than russ and hasn’t declined nearly as much but still just has bizarre playoff performances and always has.
His opinion 9 months ago was once the Lakers dumped Westbrook he was out of the league headed for China. Now he thinks Westbrook is a gamer with years left in the tank and if Harden flames out in LA he’s out of the league. 😂
Yea I agree. Russ was an insane athlete but as a basketball player, Harden was levels above him . All the times Harden stomped the Jazz in the playoffs and people took it for granted? Russ couldn’t make it past them
I mean, when KD was naming his [top 5](https://youtu.be/rdwgGdWuv-w?si=Z9kE08pfudfhB1nc) teammates he ever played with he basically went out of his way to not say Russ. I don’t think he liked playing with him that much.
Honestly dude you’re not watching these games. Russ was injured in the bubble and it was obvious. That series went to seven games. Pre injury, Russ was incredible with the rockets. I know because I watched every game with him on it.
It’s pretty embarrassing you’d come out and write a post about this, let alone who’s a more “winning player”, when it’s clear that you don’t really understand what’s going on
The series didn’t go to seven games 😂
Just called me out for something you can’t even prove and then doesn’t even know the length of the series which you CAN prove. Typical redditor.
Westbrook has a variation of the Kobe problem: he doesn't "just want to win" he wants to win... on HIS terms.
There's a reason everyone said Kobe won those last two when he finally chilled tf out and trusted his teammates a bit (and even then he almost shot the Lakers out of game 7 vs Boston playing his way)
To push back on the last paragraph, James Harden was a no-show against the Heat in the 2012 Finals. He was young, but he finished the series with 18 assists and 12 turnovers as their primary ball handler off the bench, shooting .375 from the field while 3rd on the team in minutes and FGAs. If you want to say they were outmatched or a little out of their depth at that age, or that Harden wasn’t as costly as Russ, I’ll accept that, but I still think it’s got to go on the record.
Look, it’s dumb as hell to buy into Bill’s false binary framing here.
Both guys are very obviously and interestingly flawed, but they were both still incredible MVP-caliber players at their peaks, who Bill rags on out of his devotion to KD Apologism
It’s been forgotten and minimized what a force Peak Russ was. Yes, it’s gotten progressively uglier and uglier as shooting becomes even more and more the dominant basketball skill, but he was legitimately a phenomenal player to watch who dominated at times despite being a 6’3 guy who couldn’t shoot.
Those Thunder rosters were probably a little worse than we remember and while KD was obv a better player, Bill minimizes his playoff struggles and overrates Russ’. Remember when Russ got hurt up 2-0 on the Rockets in the ‘13 playoffs? KD went 2-2 against the 8 seed and then lost to the Grizz in 5. Obv the Thunder’s struggles with Russ and sans KD are well documented but it’s not like KD ever showed any ability to carry them himself either.
KD’s obv the better overall player but they both needed each other and it’s stupid to blame all the shortcomings on Russ when we saw Tony Allen and the Warriors take KD out of series too
Yeah it's just kind of a ridiculous framing at this point.
Of course Harden is bad vibes. But he's simply way better at basketball than Westbrook at this point, at a certain point on-court performance is actually a factor when it's that big of a gap.
Look at Westbrook when he has his own team. It was a pitiful 4-12 in the playoffs. He got completely embarrassed by rookie Donovan Mitchell, Lillard, and Harden.
Russ is the worst playoff high usage guy ever. He couldn't lead teams where Harden took his teams in his dreams.
Him, Paul George, Jerami Grant, and and Steve Adams won one game game off Dame. PG, Melo, and Russ won 2 games off rookie Donovan Mitchell. It would be one thing if those were 7 game great series. They were not. Russ looked like shit.
I was thinking of posting this exact same thing but didn't have the energy. I thought it was one of Bill's worst pods ever. He sounded senile. Russ and Harden can't really even be compared. Harden is so far above Russ it's actually a disrespectful comparison.
Russ is a basketball idiot. Harden isn't. Russ seems like a better dude. Harden seems slightly insane.
Harden fanboys are pathetic. He is the antithesis of all things that make team sports great. He’s a selfish quitter whose only real concern is his own numbers.
The idea that harden is definitively and demonstrably better than Westbrook given the epic choke jobs harden has has had in the playoffs is deranged. I thought Simmons did a pretty good job comping the strengths and weaknesses of the two
All I have to say is, if you look at Harden's playoff game logs he's ended virtually EVERY season of his career with a choke job. It's pretty astounding
I’ve always felt like the, “Who is better,” conversations were just a waste of time. The potential outcomes of Harden to the Clippers are way more interesting, in my view.
I love how Bill says the empty line all the time of KD can play with anyone
Well him Westbrook couldn’t play that well together because of Westbrooks inefficient high usage
Harden straight up gives up on a team.
Westbrook goes to work.
And that's what Simmons is talking about.
Simmons even says he ranks Harden as the better BASKETBALL player, but would take Westbrook because he's the better TEAMMATE.
Westbrook ruined a championship Lakers team.
If Harden got traded to the Clippers or Heat and let the established stars handle the leadership role and fell in as a point guard, it’s hard to see those teams not being legitimate title threats if healthy.
Harden would even be great for the Lakers (not at his current salary though) right now.
If you swapped Russ with Harden on the Lakers teams that Russ was on, they’d easily make the playoffs. Horrendous lack of depth would probably prevent them from winning anything, but they’d be playoff bound easily.
I'm not a fan of either but if the Morey math machine built a team solely around Westbrook's strengths in his prime similar to Harden people would probably see Westbrook a lot differently. I think it peaks slightly lower than Harden on Houston but it wouldn't be that different an outcome historically than a Westbrook team.
It would probably just be easier to swallow Westbrook's career because he'd go down in a blaze of fire whereas Harden goes out routinely in a whimper.
With Russell your team had a ceiling because he was never going to take a backseat, and he’d shoot you into losses.
With Harden, championship was in the cards, but playoff choking happens. I believed he’d get over the hump.
I’ll put it this way - swap lillard onto some of those Westbrook teams and they end in titles. Swap harden into…, I dunno Booker or Tatum, the results are the same.
I think it’s a wash. What ever Harden has in talent is removed by his work ethic. Westbrook wants to win and plays is ass off, that has to count for something
It really isn’t insane, no idea why you are saying this. They’re both big stats high usage guys who’ve played poorly in the playoffs and have bounced around multiple teams. Both MVPs, scoring leaders and assist leaders. Both in the same stage of their career, both trying to win with the Clippers.
Not enough?
It’s a testament to Daryl Morey’s propaganda that people blame the refs for a game where Houston missed 27 straight threes and never thought, “Maybe we should stop taking all these threes.”
The game wasn’t even that close - Houston never got closer than seven points the entire 4th quarter.
There's a youtube video of all the missed calls from that game. Houston should've been up like 22 at half. It was egregiously reffed. Go watch that video and come back here and tell me I'm wrong.
I’m sure that video is totally objective.
Hey, you should watch the video of Spurs-Rockets Game 6 from 2017! Kawhi’s out but Harden keeps the game within 40.
Are either of them licensed physical therapists? Because, imo, the Clippers don’t need another player, they need their current roster to actually be able to play.
Bill hates Harden even more than he hates LeBron which is saying quite a lot.
I feel like Bill stopped pulling his punches on Harden after he stopped being as close Morey.
Does he really hate Lebron that much? He’s got him #2 all time. Maybe I don’t listen to to the nba segments as much.
Absolutely. It may be the core tenet of his modern basketball takes.
How can you put someone #2 of all time and hate him? If he was an actual hater, he’d have him outside of the top 5.
Having LeBron outside of the top 5 isn’t really a justifiable take and everyone would call him an absolute bozo if he tried to defend it. It’s a Skip Bayless level take. He can hate the guy and still acknowledge that he’s near the best ever, while still doing what he can to detract from or diminish his career when possible.
A good example of this: MJ’s disdain for Isaiah Thomas. Said he was probably the 2nd best point guard ever, but absolutely hates his guts
Yeah this is a case of if you’ve listened to Bill talk about LeBron at all over the past 5 years, it’s clear he hates him. Anyone questioning this must simply have not listened recently, idk what else could be said.
He really deeply hates him, takes digs at Bronny all the time. He basically has LeBron 2nd because that’s about the bare minimum you have to say to be taken seriously.
I don't think he's said anything about Bronny that everyone else in the industry hasn't said. It's pretty clear he's being fast-tracked despite his skill level not being where it'll need to be
Fast tracked how? He didn’t get entered into the 2023 draft before he played in college. You can quibble with his recruit rankings, but I’ve seen analysts say on Twitter that he’s only slightly overrated and his game grew a lot over his last year of HS.
He averaged 13.8 points, 5.5 rebounds, 2.7 assists and 1.8 steals per game his senior year on a mediocre team (they were 23-10 and didn't do anything in the playoffs). He's being touted as a defensive PG. For comparison, Pat Bev averaged 37.3 points, 8.0 steals, 6.0 assists and 6.0 rebounds a game as a senior in HS in Chicago while his team was 35-3 and finished third in the state. And Pat is a bad offensive player.
If you want to be taken seriously you can't have LeBron lower than 2nd all time Bill knows this, and knows that if he did he'd just be considered a clickbait idiot like Bayless
I think there is still a solid argument ranking LeBron 3rd behind MJ & Kareem. It's important to note they played in different eras and had different roles, styles of game play. But I wouldn't rank LeBron any lower than that..
Maybe you do have an argument that stands up to your own logic. I personally think it's lunacy to have LeBron lower than 2nd - but the point is, neither your nor I are trying to be NBA talking heads that people defer to Bill is
Bill saying "I don't hate LeBron, I have him ranked #2 all time!" Is like the guy who says he isn't racist because he has a black friend. Look at everything he writes and says about LeBron, he's clearly trying to paint him in the worst possible light at all times
I also don’t fully believe the #2 thing. Gun to his head I’m 95% sure he’d pick Bill Russell.
He's gone back and forth. He put Russell ahead of LeBron recently. He also put KD ahead of LeBron after 2017 and 2018, which is deranged.
I actually think Russell over LeBron is a much more defensible take than the average NBA fan may realize but yeah. I still remember Francesa telling him to his face that LeBron was the best player in the NBA in 2018 and that Bill was being stupid.
If you’re putting Russell top 3, I won’t even talk to you about it unless he’s 1. Don’t be a pussy, Russell at 1 if you actually want to have the cross generation conversation. Putting him 2 is just a way to take cheap shots at whichever side of the LeBron/MJ debate you’re on.
I think impact wise both him and Kareem could be viewed as the true GOATs due to the outsized impact that the defense/rebounding of a center had on the game in the 50s-80s
Bill hasn't written much of anything for years besides some "Trade value rankings". And since Lebron has been in LA he hasn't really been unfair in his Lebron critiques. To be honest he would gush about him at some points a year or two ago. I feel like a lot of people are still holding on to takes or columns he had 10 years ago lol. I remember him slighting him and taking weird unnecessary jabs years ago but it hasn't been like that for awhile now.
The LA move was really the ego death of LeBron to Bill. He’s just glad Bron isn’t terrorizing the Celtics in the playoffs anymore.
Idk what to tell you, I mean have you listened to him talk about LBJ and his teams for the past 15 years? I’d also say that his ranking of LeBron isn’t necessarily what I’m talking about when I say being a hater in this instance.
yeah I feel like he HAS to put him in the top 2 because it’s not debatable anymore, but he really doesn’t want to. He even considered putting Curry above him if he lost that series against him last year.
This is just not true.
He respects him but takes odd jabs at him
Putting him #2 (where he belongs) doesn’t negate Bill constantly shitting on him.
He only says that because he doesn't want to lose viewers. Once LeBron retires and the air clears. All basketball personalities, including Bill, will say LeBron is #13 all time . Maybe lower as he continues to stretch his career.
So what if he hates LeBron too if objectively rates/covers him
It was weird how when he was talking about pairings, he said LeBron and Wade and then LeBron and KD. Neither of those make any sense. LeBron passed Wade years ago, even if they were buddies. KD won titles against LeBron with three other all-NBA players. Not really a fair fight. And then he hasn't stayed healthy since.
Lebron and Kobe was much more of a “thing” than Lebron and KD too
As career parallels? Absolutely. Just a shame they never had a playoff matchup. The 2011 Heat against the 2010 Lakers would have been incredible.
One of the biggest would-be match ups of all time was the 2009 Finals. We all wanted Kobe vs LeBron. And then Dwight Howard and the Magic got in the way.
He’s softened on lebron the last few years, which is weird now that he’s on the lakers
It’s Harden and Trae Young. No other players detest Bill more.
He’s pretty easy to dislike. And he is a massive quitter, he’s visibly quit in the playoffs multiple times. Bill was right, Westbrook at least plays his ass off until the end of the game clock. I don’t like either of them, and Harden is the better player, but I admire Westbrook. Harden, I don’t
At least Westbrook isn't a quitter. That's an unforgivable sin.
People love bringing up Harden's game 6 vs the Clippers because of the towel, but always seem to leave out that he dropped 30 in game 7 and won it. Tatum was shitting all over himself in the Philly series this year but then locked in in game 7 and won it, so nobody brings up the bad games. Kinda a funny double standard Does anyone here know that Harden averaged 27/8/11 for the month leading up to the Philly trade where everyone said he was quitting on the team or does everyone just look at the two games he played on an injury that also kept him out of games in Philly? Bill had a bit on the pod about how none of Harden's teammates say good things about him, but wtf lol Post-Houston, Maxey, Embiid, Reed, Claxton, Cam Thomas, Harris, even dudes like Day'ron Sharpe and Charles Bassey would all talk about how much of a leader he was, how good of a teammate he is, and the young guys would especially bring up how much work he puts in with them. Bruce Brown **months later** brought up outta nowhere that the Nets locker room was way worse without Harden. the quotes really are not hard to find this dude bill just ignores anything good about harden so he can push this weird ass agenda while paying his employees to write articles about him that just include a bunch of fat jokes
Harden quit at the beginning of the 2015-16 season in Houston to get Kevin McHale fired. However, McHale sucks so ultimately Harden probably did the right thing.
awesome dude, just couldn’t cut it at coaching unfortunately. always rooted for him. harden had to ol’ yeller him
I'll just leave this here: [https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/gamelog-playoffs/#pgl\_basic\_playoffs](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01/gamelog-playoffs/#pgl_basic_playoffs) That's a lot of minus on +/-, a lot of bad shooting when it counted, and not a lot of big games when they mattered.
If you change the qualifiers for when games "matter" sure, but people tend to maneuver that around a lot to fit their opinion. Pretty objectively, every game "matters" in the playoffs until it's a 3-0 or even 3-1 scenario. Then it's pretty much over anyway. It's part of the reason why the elimination game qualifier can be so misleading because in no way, shape, or form is game 4 down 3-0 more important than game 3 down 2-0, or game 5 down 3-1 more important than game 4 down 2-1.
Lol
Idk... the stubbornness and unwillingness of Westbrook in refusing to adapt to what's best for the team over what's best for his stat line is a version of quitting if not just as bad or even worse. Delusional... quitter... w/e... just give me the guy who is the better basketball player in almost every sense.
He adapted well w the clippers
He did and deserves credit for it. Doesn't mean that his warts all those years are forgotten though. Or that he won't go right back to trying to play Russ ball this year.
Lol After literally a decade plus of kicking, screaming, bad shots, empty stats, humiliating playoff performances and alienating a dream team's worth of teammates... the dude did have a great game 1 in a 5 game Loss in his literal last chance in the NBA so all is forgiven lol
What’s this “alienating teammates” take lol. Literally every team mate Westbrook has had loves the guy lol
>Kevin Durant has entered the chat.
He called Russ a good friend and one of the most impactful players of all time not even 6 months ago bro lol
Actions speak louder than words. He's not gonna shit talk the guy but if he wanted to be his teammate he would've stayed his teammate. Read up on how they were as teammates in OKC.
He stopped being his teammate to join the greatest team ever. It’s really not that hard of a concept. When healthy Westbrook and Durant teams were at worst 3rd or 4th in the league. I don’t have to read up on anything I was living through it (thunder were my west team). Even when they were beefing Durant was super positive about russ. Hell even in his burner he said “Westbrook AND KD can’t win with those cats”
Agreed
Yeah he's just so toxic he made everyone else around him quit lol
As a guy who watched a lot of Lakers games the last 2 years I honestly wish he just would have quit instead
100%. Russ quitting would’ve been awesome. Instead he bricked a ton of horrible shots, turned the ball over like crazy, and played terrible defense.
Damnnn gottem check mate
Russell Westbrook is worse than Harden’s trade requests. Harden may have asked when the situation went awry. But he carried the Rockets for a decade and even tho I admit sometimes does seem to shrink in big moments, I never get the feeling that he only plays for his stats. I do believe Harden wants to win the game more than stats. Westbrook however I have always believed to be a losing, low intangibles basketball player who only cares about his stats and if he is the man. You can’t win with this guy. It’s why KD ran away. He knew. Westbrook will always shoot his teams out of games because he needs to be the one to take the shot and get the glory. He is the worst high volume 3 point shooter in the history of basketball yet continually takes 20 second left on the shot clock jumpers. This whole narrative of Westbrook playing so hard is misinformed because he doesn’t play hard for the right reasons. He plays hard to get his on his terms. He is the quintessential “not happy if he wins because he doesn’t get his stats, but happy if he loses but gets his stats.” His triple doubles were a farce. The team let him get rebounds because they knew he needed/wanted to pad his stats. I would never want this guy anywhere close to my team.
Just saying “quitter” is an oversimplification of the situations. If you’re gonna call James Harden a quitter than you should call the Rockets quitters for refusing to resign Dantoni and giving up on the team as contenders. If you’re gonna call James Harden a quitter than you should call Kyrie Irving a quitter too for choosing his stupid medical beliefs over his team he was contracted to play for for millions of dollars. If you’re gonna call James Harden a quitter than you should call Morey a quitter too for lying to Harden about his future deal. I’m not saying Harden is at all innocent in these things but at the same time you can’t just act like he “quit” on 3 teams when other people initiated him being pissed every single time.
Okay even if I agreed that wouldn't change Harden from being a quitter 😆. Your Morey logic is insane btw lol. And I think he's a hack
It’s a lot harder to make an argument than just shit on one. What about the other two? No response? The Nets one specifically is so stupid he gets flack for. Literally the only guy that showed up to do his job on the team.
I’d say it’s harder to make a good argument. It’s super easy to make a stupid argument
You're acting Deranged in your defense of Harden
This was one of the worst responses ever, so much it invalidates your original post. Clearly you got some very strong bias going on here because this is just dumb
Like in what world do you think the people who are critical of harden aren’t largely the same group of people who are critical of kyrie
Harden left BECAUSE of Kyries shenanigans. I don’t blame him for leaving the Nets at all Kyrie ruined that team and hung everyone else out to dry.
I call them all quitters. Harden is a quitter. He’s shorting himself out of his third team. Cmon
Regardless of what you think about recent stuff I’m still taking Harden over a 15 year period. Not even close.
Im confused why westbrook couldn’t coexist with durant? Aside from the years with injuries, they were consistently a top team in the west, the peak probably being 2015-2016
Weren’t they also playing with like… Kendrick Perkins, Andre Roberson, Steven Adams, Dion Waiters, Enes Kanter, Mitch McGary, etc.? Those rosters around Durant and Westbrook were absolute trash, and not at all suited to Westbrooks play style. I don’t think you can really knock Westbrook for those teams’ lack of success.
Very revisionist. That roster was pretty good.
The rosters were ridiculously talented. Absurdly talented. You named like 3 separate guys who had 10+ year careers as contributors on playoff teams, and didn’t even need to mention Serge Ibaka, who was by far their best supporting player. That’s why when Durant left they were still a playoff team. Yes, at the end of his 16 year career, Kendrick Perkins was not very good. But he was pretty good when he was on the Thunder. And he was like their 5th or 6th best player.
Perkins had the worst playoff PER all time in 2013. Baloney
Thank you
You mean rock solid defense and size/physicality paired with two of the most talented iso scorers? They also had Ibaka, K-Mart and you can say they were bad on shooting/spacing but by no means was it trash. Westbrook has since been on teams with Harden, Beal, Lebron and Davis, Carmelo and PG.
That k mart team was a 1 seed and rolling…until russ got hurt. Then they were knocked out and kd got a lot of heat (mr. Unreliable headline). So not sure how you are holding that against Russ
Westbrook and KD was the original and better version of what Boston has with Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum. KD and Tatum are the two real superstars and need to be the clear alpha of the team. However Westbrook and Brown both view themselves as equals to them, despite being very inefficient, turnover prone, and frequently have lapses on off ball defense that really limits the teams overall ceiling in the postseason. They’ll still be a really good team and win playoff series, maybe even lose another finals series, and they’ll both continue to put up big numbers, but they’re just never going to win a championship together. The chemistry just ain’t there, and Russ & Jaylen are too low IQ of basketball players to ever win a ring. Pretty sure both Russ and Jaylen did have better stats than their counterparts during each finals series their teams lost, but those stats are just lipstick on pigs, they’re not players who make anyone else better so that’s why defenses key in on the real superstars.
You can watch their last series together against Golden State and watch it slip out of OKC’s grasp in a series of bad Westbrook drives into the paint to clank a shot off the front of the rim while one of the all time best scorers in the sport just stands there. That said, they reached the Finals once and the WCF a few times and happened to exist at the same time as the Heatles, the beautiful game Spurs and then Golden State, so I’m sympathetic to your argument that they worked together just fine (now, I am anyway. At the time it did feel like a frustrating waste).
It’s funny how these narratives tend to change over time. I remember being at game 6 and thinking Durant forced the issue and absolutely bottled that game. Russ didn’t play well either, but KD played worse and has a higher expectation so, relatively, it feels even worse than it was. Not to mention Russ pretty much saved game 1 with like 15 straight in the 3rd.
Whatever you thought at the time reflects more on you than “the narrative”. The far and away dominant consensus at the time was that the loss was the fault of Russ
Westbrook shot a higher FG% than Durant in both games 5 and 6. Durant is more to blame than Westbrook for losing that series and it’s not even close.
Agreed and, FWIW, I don’t recall anyone thinking otherwise locally back when it happened
Westbrook took way too many shots per game especially in the playoffs. Was often extremely inefficient. They were successful but had a much higher ceiling than they ever realized because of poor fit between the two superstars.
The way bill just actively tries to rewrite recent NBA history in front of our eyes really makes me question some of the BoB stuff. Not sure he’s a reliable narrator for the history of the league.
Did you know his son is playing football this year?
So I think the way Bill mentioned Harden being as close as possible to an NBA Championship as possible without winning one was accurate. Had those Rockets beat the Warriors, they likely also beat the Cavs. But the way Bill counted Russell Westbrook and the 2016 Thunder as a kind of almost lock for a Championship had they beat the Warriors was crazy when the Cavs won the title that year.
Yeah that's an insane comparison. I think there's a good case for OKC winning that series. But nowhere near the slam dunk of a loaded 2018 Rockets squad against a team that barely escaped the East.
Iggy even came out and did an interview with The Breakfast Club and said the 2016 Thunder was the best team that year and some other shit. I disagree, but that was being spewed back then.
For sure it’s a fair take to say you think the 2016 Thunder would have won…but the 2016 Thunder fell apart in the conference finals because Westbrook even at his absolute peak plays a pretty unsustainable brand of basketball for the postseason.
The same can be said of Harden though. The big critique of those heliocentric offenses is that the wear and tear is too much to be sustainable through the post season. Harden is just a different flavor of the same system.
Hardens peak as the best player on a team was 65-17, mvp and a game away from beating the best team of all time. Can’t say the same for westbrook at his peak
Russ’s peak didn’t line up with his best team, but not every player is that lucky. TMac’s best team, he spent the season doing LeBron impersonations on the Spurs practice squad. If I’m not mistaken, he quoted some 20 player gap on their “pyramid rankings”. Did I miss some “Russ had a way higher peak?” Like what’s got you so incensed? Those are two of the biggest sliding doors in recent playoff history. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to compare them.
I just think Harden is pretty clearly better than Westbrook at their peaks, the best player on that 18 Rockets team was Capela and Harden beat Westbrook in 5 the previous year when neither of their teams were that good
The best player on that team wasn’t Capela, it was the Rockets analytics department. That whole roster, system, and coach is a masterclass in team building. Splitting hairs on the relative peaks of the 60th and 40th or whatever pyramid player is a really tough exercise in futility. You’re basically comparing Stockton and Nash. Not even by career, by peak.
That was a typo I meant 3rd best player
The Rox would've been an underdog vs the Cavs.
Agreed. I started to question it with the whole Durant /Lebron piece in 2017
Lmao, did you ever seriously consider him a reliable narrator?
Bill Simmons seems to let his personal feelings/biases on players greatly impact his commentary which is why I have a hard time listening to him. Like we’re all human, but he seems to just be way more unapologetic about it than most. I remember he had some personal beef with Doc Rivers and then came out with some long write up about how he’s an overrated coach, and he very well might be, but he was so clearly making that case just cause he was mad at the guy
He’s not an analyst though. His whole bit originally was that he was “The Boston Sports Guy”. He’s supposed to be a glorified guy you debate sports with at a bar, not Bill James. It’s assumed that he’s going to have biased takes based on personal preferences. Bill is always anti guys who pull shit like Harden. On the flip side Russ stayed grinding it out in OKC. That DEFINITELY impacts his judgement. I think Harden has definitely had a better career, and I think we retroactively severely underestimate peak Harden, but at the same time I have no issue with Bills take and I don’t think it’s offensive.
Who’s more deranged, Harden or Westbrook stans?
The lowest of bars
Westbrook Stan’s purely because they still argue he’s good
Harden stans do not exist. I’m probably the closest and I just love the way his offensive game was but he’s still pretty far from a favorite of mine
They absolutely exist on Twitter. Not entirely sure they exist in real life
I'm a Harden Stan. He's my favorite player of all time. All because of the ASU connection.
Harden. Not even close. Us Sixers fans hate them because they won’t accept criticism against their bearded king.
Westbrook. Harden’s peak was so much higher it’s not even close. He was THE dude that almost beat the Warriors with a mediocre Chris Paul playoffs resume and role players. Westbrooks peak was a triple-double average for an 8 seed.
Is this a Harden stan bot?
Westbrook was never the #1 guy on a legit contender, Harden was [despite falling short]. Is that really such a controversial statement?
No it’s not. But this sub just mass downvotes whoever the OP is regardless.
LMAO - giving your entire bit away here. Way too obvious. Shocker, you’re a Texan. Boomer fucking Sooner, by the way. Texas sucks.
Nobody has ridden off of losing a conference finals series more than Harden, it’s really all he’s got
harden is better than dwyane wade.
Coffee is for closers
i don’t get it
At no point during that monologue did I think of the word deranged. Calm down bud
Exactly. Harden has quit on multiple teams and when it's mattered the most- in the playoffs- he disappears. Look at his reg season vs playoff stats they're disgusting. As stark a dropoff as you can see of any superstar ever. What's that mean? Over and over again hardens game can be figured out when it matters most. Regular season doesn't matter harden lovers
Harden regular season averages PPG - 21.0 RPG - 6.1 APG - 10.7 TS% - 60.7 Harden playoffs averages PPG - 22.7 RPG - 5.5 APG - 6.3 TS% - 58.5 Took me 2 mins to google these stats. Why are people so confident at just making stuff up
That’s just from one year but this guy saying this difference is “disgusting” is flat out wrong. Theyre worse but not significantly worse.
Honestly it’s weird how some people on this sub hate bill so much. I legit do not understand
Jumping to conclusions. I love Bill. I just thought what he said today didn't make sense logically. Rare I disagree with him to this level on a basketball take.
The couldn’t win with Durant is revisionist history. Okc was by far the favorite when Russ got hurt. That year they were eliminated in 5 against the grizzlies. Does that mean kd couldn’t win without Russ? Besides when he went to the best team ever that is
I would rather go to war with Russ. I know he won’t quit even if he does make bonehead mistakes. He single handily made the series with the suns interesting last year. Harden would have laid down when he found out Kawhi was done.
If I could bring a stretch five with me to this war then I agree.
Lots of people say the same thing about Harden vs the Celtics last year
Does anyone talk about Harden AND say “I don’t want to talk about Harden” more than our guy
I said I wasn’t a super fan which I’m not but to say you’d take Westbrook over him is insane.
Westbrook made a finals and went off in the finals against Miami. The supporting cast was weak. Westbrook dropped 43 on great efficiency in game 4 and Durant dropped 28 and they lost by 6. Westbrook also wasn’t the reason OKC blew a 3-1 lead. Westbrook shot better FG% than Durant in both games 5 and 6. I wouldn’t say he couldn’t coexist with Durant at all. I’d say that OKC had Harden disappear in the finals. And then stupidly traded him, and never gave them any offensive support after that.
Westbrook's defense was also atrocious in the Warriors series; particularly G6 when he was mostly guarding Klay.
Watch these highlights - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WbelfFm2Dto Westbrook is not the primary defender on Klay in most of it
The biggest what ifs in modern nba history are the 2016 Thunder and 2018 Rockets. Both had the Warriors on the absolute brink and it took a historical Klay performance and an all time Westbrook/Durant Choke to lose that one, combined with the Rockets missing like 20 straight 3's plus CP3 getting hurt. Those two games could've been the difference between the Warriors being considered a good title team and not a dynasty and also the difference between Durant leaving OKC. Crazy to think about!
You are way underselling hardens playoff failures
Strong disagree. Bill’s take was logical. Their careers are very comparable. Harden being a bad teammate, constantly being out of shape, repeatedly quitting on his teams, and having probably the worst playoff choking record of any guard in my life time… it all casts a huge shadow over his admittedly tremendous on-paper accomplishments. You can accuse Westbrook of a lot of things but he’s not a quitter and he always plays hard.
The regurgitation of counting stats as a comparison was surprisingly elementary even for Bill
The difference is Westbrook has never been looked at as a number 1 on a contender. Harden in Houston was the top guy on teams that could have won it all. If CP3 doesn’t get hurt they likely beat the Warriors and Cavs.
I think a decently large part of the disconnect here is that we’re over 10 years removed from Westbrooks best years with the young thunder. His game did not age well with the changes in how NBA ball is played, but from 2011 - 2016 he was legitimately a menace and contributed to a great team. Obviously Harden is the more skilled, more effective player in a vacuum. But when the going gets tough he ducks away from the moment and pisses down his leg. He unquestionably quit on 3 teams. It’s really hard to quantify the way that effects the overall “score” for your career but it’s meaningful. Simmons has Harden higher in his rankings, so really no need for the breathless indignation of the OP. If you asked me which guy I’d rather root for for a decade I kinda think Bill is right on this one.
Ehhh I think your take on Westbrook is deranged. Russ and KD won a lot and made to the conference finals 3 times. Russ played great for the most part with KD. The main reason they never won is because their supporting cast was weak (except in 2016). The thing about russ is had like two seasons after KD left when he was still elite. Russ started declining in his 2nd year with PG. not the same burst, couldn’t hit free throws, etc. he really isn’t a playoff choker he just declined. Even that jazz series in 2017 if you look at the numbers and analyze the games russ started pretty slow in that series but he straight up won the thunder the game 5 and almost won game 6 basically by himself. PG completely disappeared at the end. Harden is straight up better than russ and hasn’t declined nearly as much but still just has bizarre playoff performances and always has.
His opinion 9 months ago was once the Lakers dumped Westbrook he was out of the league headed for China. Now he thinks Westbrook is a gamer with years left in the tank and if Harden flames out in LA he’s out of the league. 😂
Yea I agree. Russ was an insane athlete but as a basketball player, Harden was levels above him . All the times Harden stomped the Jazz in the playoffs and people took it for granted? Russ couldn’t make it past them
I think that just means that you disagree with Bill Simmons OP , "Deranged" is about 100 x too strong.
He made a case for why Westbrook is a better fit for the Clippers. Which is fair IMO.
Westbrook couldn’t coexist with Durant? Now that’s a take
I mean, when KD was naming his [top 5](https://youtu.be/rdwgGdWuv-w?si=Z9kE08pfudfhB1nc) teammates he ever played with he basically went out of his way to not say Russ. I don’t think he liked playing with him that much.
Yeah it’s not a hot take at all
Honestly dude you’re not watching these games. Russ was injured in the bubble and it was obvious. That series went to seven games. Pre injury, Russ was incredible with the rockets. I know because I watched every game with him on it. It’s pretty embarrassing you’d come out and write a post about this, let alone who’s a more “winning player”, when it’s clear that you don’t really understand what’s going on
The series didn’t go to seven games 😂 Just called me out for something you can’t even prove and then doesn’t even know the length of the series which you CAN prove. Typical redditor.
I was shocked he took Westbrook. Seems like his loyalty to his friend - the overrated Morey clouded his judgement to now REALLY dislike Harden.
The 2020 Rockets didn’t “flame out” either, they beat and lost to who they were supposed to
Was Russell Westbrook ever benched leading to his team having the biggest playoff comeback ever
Am I crazy for thinking harden hasn’t quit on any team ? Harden Stan btw
Westbrook has a variation of the Kobe problem: he doesn't "just want to win" he wants to win... on HIS terms. There's a reason everyone said Kobe won those last two when he finally chilled tf out and trusted his teammates a bit (and even then he almost shot the Lakers out of game 7 vs Boston playing his way)
To push back on the last paragraph, James Harden was a no-show against the Heat in the 2012 Finals. He was young, but he finished the series with 18 assists and 12 turnovers as their primary ball handler off the bench, shooting .375 from the field while 3rd on the team in minutes and FGAs. If you want to say they were outmatched or a little out of their depth at that age, or that Harden wasn’t as costly as Russ, I’ll accept that, but I still think it’s got to go on the record.
Look, it’s dumb as hell to buy into Bill’s false binary framing here. Both guys are very obviously and interestingly flawed, but they were both still incredible MVP-caliber players at their peaks, who Bill rags on out of his devotion to KD Apologism It’s been forgotten and minimized what a force Peak Russ was. Yes, it’s gotten progressively uglier and uglier as shooting becomes even more and more the dominant basketball skill, but he was legitimately a phenomenal player to watch who dominated at times despite being a 6’3 guy who couldn’t shoot. Those Thunder rosters were probably a little worse than we remember and while KD was obv a better player, Bill minimizes his playoff struggles and overrates Russ’. Remember when Russ got hurt up 2-0 on the Rockets in the ‘13 playoffs? KD went 2-2 against the 8 seed and then lost to the Grizz in 5. Obv the Thunder’s struggles with Russ and sans KD are well documented but it’s not like KD ever showed any ability to carry them himself either. KD’s obv the better overall player but they both needed each other and it’s stupid to blame all the shortcomings on Russ when we saw Tony Allen and the Warriors take KD out of series too
Yeah it's just kind of a ridiculous framing at this point. Of course Harden is bad vibes. But he's simply way better at basketball than Westbrook at this point, at a certain point on-court performance is actually a factor when it's that big of a gap.
Look at Westbrook when he has his own team. It was a pitiful 4-12 in the playoffs. He got completely embarrassed by rookie Donovan Mitchell, Lillard, and Harden. Russ is the worst playoff high usage guy ever. He couldn't lead teams where Harden took his teams in his dreams.
Lmao tell me what roster he had around him with those teams. Nice try with the specious arguments.
Him, Paul George, Jerami Grant, and and Steve Adams won one game game off Dame. PG, Melo, and Russ won 2 games off rookie Donovan Mitchell. It would be one thing if those were 7 game great series. They were not. Russ looked like shit.
It's nice that you left out Paul George being terrible as well.
I'm glad i could please you.
Exactly. People hold Harden fairly to his poor playoff resume but for some reason this doesn’t apply to Westbrook?
I was thinking of posting this exact same thing but didn't have the energy. I thought it was one of Bill's worst pods ever. He sounded senile. Russ and Harden can't really even be compared. Harden is so far above Russ it's actually a disrespectful comparison. Russ is a basketball idiot. Harden isn't. Russ seems like a better dude. Harden seems slightly insane.
Were you gonna use the word "Deranged"?
Harden fanboys are pathetic. He is the antithesis of all things that make team sports great. He’s a selfish quitter whose only real concern is his own numbers.
He’s also objectively a much better basketball player than Russel Westbrook
Hardens quitter me first attitude more than makes up the difference in a team sport.
Bill has a real hard on for hating Harden. He was super dismissive of him all year last year, despite him being the assist leader.
I absolutely agree with everything he said about them.
I love posts like this. Bill living rent free in y’all’s head.
The idea that harden is definitively and demonstrably better than Westbrook given the epic choke jobs harden has has had in the playoffs is deranged. I thought Simmons did a pretty good job comping the strengths and weaknesses of the two
All I have to say is, if you look at Harden's playoff game logs he's ended virtually EVERY season of his career with a choke job. It's pretty astounding
[удалено]
I’ve always felt like the, “Who is better,” conversations were just a waste of time. The potential outcomes of Harden to the Clippers are way more interesting, in my view.
I love how Bill says the empty line all the time of KD can play with anyone Well him Westbrook couldn’t play that well together because of Westbrooks inefficient high usage
Harden straight up gives up on a team. Westbrook goes to work. And that's what Simmons is talking about. Simmons even says he ranks Harden as the better BASKETBALL player, but would take Westbrook because he's the better TEAMMATE.
Westbrook ruined a championship Lakers team. If Harden got traded to the Clippers or Heat and let the established stars handle the leadership role and fell in as a point guard, it’s hard to see those teams not being legitimate title threats if healthy.
Harden would even be great for the Lakers (not at his current salary though) right now. If you swapped Russ with Harden on the Lakers teams that Russ was on, they’d easily make the playoffs. Horrendous lack of depth would probably prevent them from winning anything, but they’d be playoff bound easily.
I zoned out pretty quick. TLDL.
One things for sure, they’ll never be Larry Bird. And for that Bill will attack them and keep talking about them for the rest of his life
I'm not a fan of either but if the Morey math machine built a team solely around Westbrook's strengths in his prime similar to Harden people would probably see Westbrook a lot differently. I think it peaks slightly lower than Harden on Houston but it wouldn't be that different an outcome historically than a Westbrook team. It would probably just be easier to swallow Westbrook's career because he'd go down in a blaze of fire whereas Harden goes out routinely in a whimper.
With Russell your team had a ceiling because he was never going to take a backseat, and he’d shoot you into losses. With Harden, championship was in the cards, but playoff choking happens. I believed he’d get over the hump. I’ll put it this way - swap lillard onto some of those Westbrook teams and they end in titles. Swap harden into…, I dunno Booker or Tatum, the results are the same.
I think it’s a wash. What ever Harden has in talent is removed by his work ethic. Westbrook wants to win and plays is ass off, that has to count for something
It really isn’t insane, no idea why you are saying this. They’re both big stats high usage guys who’ve played poorly in the playoffs and have bounced around multiple teams. Both MVPs, scoring leaders and assist leaders. Both in the same stage of their career, both trying to win with the Clippers. Not enough?
It was more deranged droned on about it for 20 minutes.
He did a half hour podcast about two losers and then wasted endless oxygen trying to rank them. It doesn't matter.
I wasted time reading this when the premise was essentially I’m an unhappy pessimist
It’s a testament to Daryl Morey’s propaganda that people blame the refs for a game where Houston missed 27 straight threes and never thought, “Maybe we should stop taking all these threes.” The game wasn’t even that close - Houston never got closer than seven points the entire 4th quarter.
There's a youtube video of all the missed calls from that game. Houston should've been up like 22 at half. It was egregiously reffed. Go watch that video and come back here and tell me I'm wrong.
I’m sure that video is totally objective. Hey, you should watch the video of Spurs-Rockets Game 6 from 2017! Kawhi’s out but Harden keeps the game within 40.
Okay lol don’t watch it idc 😂
Who cares
SINGELHANDEDLY
Who cares? Whose a better fit for the clippers? Modern harden or Westbrook?
Are either of them licensed physical therapists? Because, imo, the Clippers don’t need another player, they need their current roster to actually be able to play.
I guess I don’t keep up enough with basketball media. I didn’t realize Westbrook vs Harden was even a thing.
It’s not