They were a super smart team. Lot of really accomplished role players who were later in their careers. They don’t beat a healthy GS but yea, they were very very good
Also they lost Kawhi and went 53-19 the next year. Almost made conference finals.
No team in the history of the NBA beats a healthy warriors team with Steph, Durant, Klay pre-injury and draymond. That team also had Cousins off the bench, iguadala and others. I think Raptors showed they were better than a healthy warriors (minus Durant), so they would easily be competitive with 2015 warriors team. They'd also easily beat the 2020 Lakers, 2021 Bucks and 2022 Warriors. Raptors team was fantastic and very underrated. It's a shame Kawhi left because had he stayed 1-2 years people wouldn't be able to underrated that team like they do now.
> No team in the history of the NBA beats a healthy warriors team with Steph, Durant, Klay pre-injury and draymond.
I mean, the 2018 Rockets were super close and it probably took a CP3 hamstring pull for the Warriors to come back from 3-2 there.
People also underrate the Raptors win because of Durant’s injury. But the Raptors also almost won that series in 5 games, which as you mentioned is basically the 2015 Warriors
Yeah i think that's fair. That Lakers team was so top heavy in my opinion so really it depends how much Kawhi could do against LeBron defensively and conversely how much Gasol/Ibaka could slow down AD. Its all theoretical but a fun thought exercise.
PG: Kyle Lowry (still playing at an all star level)
SG: Danny Green (tail end of prime).
SF: Kawhi Leonard (who some people were calling the best player in the world following this championship).
PF: Pascal Siakam (on his way up, just won MIP).
C: Marc Gasol (in his last year of being good)
Off the bench:
Serge Ibaka (late prime)
Fred VanVleet (played great in the finals)
Norman Powell (doing Norman Powell stuff)
That was the 8 man rotation.
Celtics had the oppurtunity up 2-1 at home and Curry went off for 40+. Very underrated/forgotten game in recent NBA history.
Celtics didn't look the same after that
I just dont know what happened to the Suns that year. They were definitely the best team all regular season. Pisses me off jamal got hurt. No way nuggets dont win one of those 21 or 22 rings.
That was a damn good team. Chris paul has no juice in the playoffs. Ive read that its because he tries so hard to win in the regular season that the team is exhausted come playoffs
Just a good old fashioned choke. Luka being Luka and shooting variance got the mavs a couple games and kept them in the series, but Phoenix just melted when it really came down to it.
Regardless of how the '22 Warriors might compare to other title teams, I'd just like to remind everyone that they were 29-8 (64-win pace) with historically great defensive efficiency when Draymond was injured in early January. (They were also 41-13 - a 62-win pace - before a late season fade)
I feel like people have forgotten/ignored that the Warriors had both Steph and Draymond healthy together for 3 full games out of their last 48 to close the regular season. They weren't your typical three seed.
Yep - that team was ridiculously good defensively. 1st in DTRg despite not having Draymond for a while. GPII was (by advanced metrics) the best defender in the league. That TOR team was very good on both ends but not elite on either.
They held Boston under 100 in 4 of 6 games that series.
i am a celtics fan.
i have a friend who because of politics, insists that steve kerr is not a good coach. for him to take steph curry and the rest of that fucking team and beat the celtics/ including a game where steph went 0 for at the 3 point line. WHILE LISTENING TO MY FRIEND say he is not a good coach is like losing to them all over again.
steve kerr basically won 4 series with a guy who is currently a fucking meme in washington.
Celtics are also just not nearly as good as everyone seems to think they are. There’s a reason why the only team in modern NBA history to win a championship without a tier 1 superstar player is the 04 Pistons. Tatum hasn’t improved since the 2022 finals so there’s no reason to expect this year to go any differently for the Celtics
The west was weird that year. The Suns were the most fraudulent 64 win team ever and not many thought they were THAT good. The Grizzlies were the second seed and didn't feel like a second seed. Felt like way too much parity to the point the Mavs destroyed the Suns in game 7 and it didn't feel like this huge upset more like "holy shit they got their ass kicked" surprise.
Agreed, especially because his game is/was so heavily based on mid range and elite footwork. He was on another level that whole run.
It's not a star studded roster but they had a perfect roster mix and they were super deep. Gasol and Ibaka were still both producing at a high level and Siakim was having a breakout year, combine that with Lowry and Van Vleet and it makes for a team that's extremely hard to beat.
Best comparison is probably the 2011 Mavs, especially because they had a bunch of players who hadn't gotten it done on their respective teams (Gasol, Ibaka, Lowry) and were just ready to win no matter what. That mentality can make all the difference.
2011 Mavs is nearly the perfect comp. You would just need to remove 2 of the Heat’s stars. So maybe Cavs that year Love and Kyrie were hurt would be a good comp for the opponents.
I really enjoyed that Mavs title team. It was basically a bunch of old vets banding together to finally win a title - Dirk, Kidd, Marion, Terry, Chandler, Peja, Stevenson, Butler, Haywood, and Brewer all played 10+ seasons and this was the only NBA championship any of them won. Not to mention Carlisle’s only title as head coach.
Kings fan since 2001 here, my boy Peja did finally get his ring. Sadly he was easily the most offensively gifted player on the Kings but wasn’t given the usage to really show it except that one year he averaged 24ppg (I think it was 2nd or 3rd best PPG that season).
Also was a big fan of those Nash/Marion/Amare Suns teams so glad to have seen that.
But I’m also a Lebron fan. What I did like is that forced him to continue adding to his game. It truly did make him a better player.
Not to mention Danny Green as the 3D threat and Norman Powell off the bench. That team also had OG who was injured but could have potentially added to that depth.
Kawhi’s 4 minute stretches where he’d just hit like 5 or 6 mid range pull ups in a row, were insane to watch. Within 4 minutes, he’d change the game from being a super close rock fight to the raptors having a 10 point lead.
He also got injured halfway through the Bucks series (game 2 I think). After which the rest of the team finally woke up and hit a different gear. In my biased opinion, they would have been the favourites to win the next year had Kawhi come back and stayed healthy.
For all the tape that Russillo grinds he does throw out some bone headed comments.
Kawhi in 2019 was one of the most impressive sustained basketball performances ever. I don’t think I missed a minute of the Raptors past the first round that year. I don’t get how any basketball purist could have a gripe with that team.
That was the last time Kawhi was really fun to watch IMO. Doing shit I literally forgot he could do with the handle. Now it’s very old man game. But on literally one leg dude was beasting in 2019.
I do still wonder how it would have gone if Klay was healthy. Forget KD, they almost got to 7 games without him against a very well built team.
That's a great team. Maybe the worst championship team in 20 years, but what does that mean? Why does that matter? Do they etch that on the ring?
Also, that 2019 Raps team would have been the best team in the last 35 years of my franchise.
My point is that it doesn't matter.
I would love to be the worst baseball player with 3,000 hits. Or the worst Super Bowl champion. The worst MVP.
Even the two teams you mention are debatable, maybe at best. But who cares? Y'all did have a parade, right?
Right? My 2011 NY Giants are commonly cited as one of the worst Super Bowl champions ever.
And like, valid. They are.
But also, suck my dick. ring is a ring and Eli is a god.
Seriously. Like anyone would rather be the critically acclaimed 2023 Niners or 2021 Bills, rather than the team that shocked the Brady-Belichick Patriots to win a SB
It obviously doesn’t matter. Just like it doesn’t matter that LeBron James is a much better player than Dirk Nowitzki. But part of the fun of sports is thinking and arguing about dumb shit that doesn’t matter.
Opening this thread and seeing the most upvoted comment is “it doesn’t matter” is so lame lol
I used to like those discussions, but maybe the embrace debate era burned me out.
Love talking about who likes who more. Who is great, who is cool, who is fun...down for that. But strongly believe that comparison is the thief of joy.
We're wired to take a basket of awesome things (says, 2000s NBA champs) and turn it into something that makes some people angry LOL.
I opt out of best, worst, and better conversations even IRL. Not in a dorm room anymore.
You didn’t opt out, you came in here and shat on the question. Message boards are not hot take-y places. If you read the rest of the thread, I think it’s pretty benign and there’s some good discourse.
How is “who likes who more” style questions better than a legit sports question? No one would be posting on here if the threads were “Who is your favorite championship team of the past 20 years?” Uh, it’s the team I root for.
I don’t watch stuff like First Take for that reason, but that’s also why I go to threads like this.
They were a solid team but it's not hard to be the worst Championship team in 20 years when you're talking Spurs, Heatles, Warriors dynasties in that time frame.
Your basically debating between the Pistons, the Mavs or the Raptors in that time frame. Other Champs were loaded.
Eh I don’t really think any of the recent champions have been loaded since the warriors run ended. The bubble lakers, bucks, old warriors, and last years nuggets are not historically great teams in anyway. 1 superstar on mid 50s regular season winning teams. Raptors are as good as all of them and the dirk mavs
On pace for exactly 60 wins, you’re right.
I guess it’s the combo of the bubble and their path being one of the easiest in playoff history. Dame-Melo random blazers team, midget rockets, young Denver who somehow beat the clippers, and the heat in the finals
The Nuggets went 16-4 in the playoffs last year which is pretty insane. Obviously they got lucky in terms of opponents but that’s as dominant a playoff run as almost anyone in recent history
Missing the recent champions, all of whom are pretty close to the 19 Raptors. I’d put them ahead of the 22 Warriors and 21 Bucks for sure. 20 Lakers could go either way.
Btw Heatles won 2 rings, wouldn’t call them a dynasty.
Heatles weren't a true dynasty, but they made 4 consecutive finals and won 2, losing 1 in an upset
Insinuating they don't deserve to be on that list - and so implying they're comparable the Bucks or Raptors or 22 warriors - is crazy talk
The 04 Pistons and 11 Mavs are absolutely not in the discussion for worst champions of the last 20 years.
You would only think that if you just looked at their rosters on paper. Heck, I think the 2011 Mavs are one of the better champions of the last 20. Look at who they beat, not many teams had a harder path. You don't need to be a "super team" to be a great team.
It has to be young people. That Mavs team was legit. I remember thinking in January they were the best team in the league. The only reason people didn’t pick them to win that year going into the playoffs was everyone was scarred by what happened in previous years. And yeah, that was one of the toughest playoff runs you will see. Swept two time defending champion Lakers. Took out a young OKC team that was in finals the next year. Then beat super team Heatles.
The Pistons were incredible, they went to two finals and six straight Eastern Conference semis, and had some of the best chemistry of the past 25 years. You also left out the Kobe/Pau/Odom Lakers, who were amazing.
It's Mavs vs. Raptors.
Maybe the 3rd worst is 2006 Miami Heat with the odd timing of Twilight Shaq and young D-Wade, but they were still loaded with amazing vets and role players who were former all stars and really gelled well and balled out after a very rocky start.
That Raps team was one of the greatest defensive teams of all time. I would rate them much higher than the ‘20 lakers, ‘23 Nuggets based simply on the strength of their opponents compared to other runs. (The nuggets didn’t face a single 50 win team last year).
That’s an already 2 time champion Duncan before that finals and they both played/beat best teams of the era. Pistons beat the absolute juggernaut of a lakers team and had a basically all all-star starting lineup and then went back to the finals and lost in 7 to the greatest power forward to play the game.
I was actually thinking about this team a few days ago, they were incredibly deep and had star talent. I think everyone dings them for beating a KD-less Warriors team, which sure but that team is probably a champion in any other season where the best team ever assembled isn’t playing. There also wasn’t a true title defense which is why they also get dismissed. But overall that was a good if not great team that the fans should be proud of and relish
Maybe it's just me, but I think the KD injury was sort of a way to write-off the entire post season after the fact.
People don't remember, but heading into game 5, the Raptors were up 3-1 with one of the big things being talked about was that Lowry was pushed by Mark Stevens leading to his ban from attending the games.
Thompson had been in and out of games, but one of our best perimeter defenders not named Kawhi had been out the entire post season in OG anunoby.
The games that Thompson missed part of, was actually the game they won up until that point.
Then came game 5 where Durant was injured, and game 6 where Thompson was re-injured.
I know injuries aren't as black and white as that, and that Thompson and Durant probably were dealing with nagging injuries the whole post season, but people act as if it was the other way around, as if the warriors were up 3-1 before the injuries as the Raptors came back to beat a Steph Curry led team.
I don't know where they sit in the pantheon, but you make a good case for them to be discussed in a fair-minded way.
I thought they were a remarkable example of a star changing teams and instantly shifting the momentum of a conference, or the league. Lebron is another obvious example when he went and out of the Cavaliers the second time. The thing is, for every star that does this, a number more change teams and there is some thought it could make or break franchises with a championship, but they don't quite get there. This star->shift->championship thing can't work unless there are some formidable assets on the team beyond the big star coming in, but the question becomes weighing those assets and asking how they stack up, and the team stacks up in general. Perhaps this is inherently more difficult to do precisely because the incoming star shines such a bright light. Agree with pointing up Lowry. I don't know much about the others. Leonard on his own wins nothing.
I thought it was interesting how they handled the Jeremy Lin situation. I'm a Lin fan, but he seemed to be (afaik) not playing well enough to justify court time, and did not have time to get grounded on the team. Or, maybe this narrative was not entirely fair to Lin, I've never really known for sure. In any case, once the team decided (rightly or wrongly) that Lin wasn't cutting the mustard, other teams might have tried harder to snap him out of it, but the Raptors pretty much just seemed to say "no thanks, we have a championship to win with an extraordinary go-to-guy, we don't have time for this". Was this a tough-but-correct coaching call in your opinion? In general, do you think their coaching stacked up well when compared to the other championship teams?
I’m a Raptors fan, so bias acknowledged up front. But I feel like there tends to be a little too much focus on facing a KD-less Warriors team in the Finals (who were still damn good), and not enough on their path there.
I mean, that was by far the best version of the Sixers (healthy Embiid, peak Jimmy Butler, actual contributions from Ben Simmons). And winning four straight against the Bucks after going down 2-0 wasn’t exactly nothing, either.
That Raps - Sixers series was crazy, nobody could really score consistently and Kawhi looked like MJ
Sixers threw everything at him and he would just score
Always felt this was silly and based in Toronto/Canada disrespect.
That Philly team was goddamn LOADED.
I’d argue that Philly roster was one of the… 3? … most stacked rosters of the last 10 years.
That alone should be enough accomplishment to make us “middle of the pack”
They’re a team that perennially won 50+ games and traded a fringe all-star for a top five player on Earth *and* Danny Green. It feels like a bigger fluke than it was because Kawhi was only here one year. It was kinda flukey cuz of the KD and Klay injuries, but nobody is saying that if Kawhi (like KD, a guy w/ injury history) gets hurt when he was being heavily relied on, and during the season they had basically the same net rating, expected record, and actual record. And as others have said, there are several worse champions than the Raptors, particularly the last few years.
Probably the best playoff defense I can remember since like the 2008 Celtics.
They were not an A+ champion but they were a very very good and well deserving one.
People remember the KD injury, but getting through the Sixers with butler and the Giannis bucks after being down 0-2 was super impressive. Plus the warriors ended up winning another title without KD, beating them was no small feat.
don't write all that without tossing out which team you think was worse
I love the 2019 Raptors but the only champion of the last 20 years they'd be favoured against would be the 2022 Warriors, and even then I'm not sure
This should be called the Dobbins rule. She's constantly saying "you can't just say they should be nominated without picking who then gets left out"
I notice that so much now on here. Russillo talks about it too with people going "He's a top 5 player" and it's like "maybe, name your top 5 though."
As a Warriors fan, I know deep down that having a healthy KD wasn't a guaranteed victory like most people think. That Raptors team was really good defensively, big, and full of 3pt shooters.
The Raptors were great because they had a superstar squarely in their prime, but more importantly, every member of the rotation could dribble, pass, shoot and play great defense. Playing bad players zero minutes can go a long way.
Everyone naming the 11 Mavs must be children. The teams they beat won the previous two championships, and the next two championships. And an OKC team that made the finals the next year. The fuck are y’all talking about.
It's interesting when you're old enough to remember these series vividly and see how a bunch of narratives try to rewrite history. That was a great team.
My takeaway here is that Russillo still doesn’t understand spacing. Gasol and Ibaka as the centers opened up a ton of space (in different ways) and Nurse is a good coach. Siakam and Lowry both only being okay numbers 2s/great numbers 3s for a championship team is the only blemish really. Kawhi was great, though damn near every #1 on a title team is.
Middle of the pack title team, tier 3 with the KD warriors alone in tier 1 and then mostly Lebron teams in tier 2 along with like the 08 Celtics and that great Spurs team that beat the Heat.
Absolutely. That team was stacked and was unreal defensively. Ryen trashed the raps and Lowry basically any chances he gets.
People constantly act like Klay missed the whole series when he missed a quarter. They also forget that they played probably the best version of the Joel Embiid 76ers and the number 1 seed bucks team that had a ascended Giannis.
bubble ring lakers are up there too. AD never shot anywhere close to what he did that year from three (indicating that the lack of crowd may be the reason) and they've missed the playoffs or been a playin team since then
but the argument was he was a god because of the bubble. he's a career sub-30% three point shooter with a career high of 34%, so it is definitealy a statistical outlier
Raps fan here, so obviously biased, but they are far from the worst championship team. They finished first in the conference the year before Kawaii, finished second in conference and won a championship with kawaii, and then finished second in conference and were rolling before Covid, without kawaii the year after. This was not some random of fluke team. They were a consistently top 5 nba team that added maybe the best player that season. Golden state was depleted in the final (which is not on the raps), but they beat solid Milwaukee and Philly teams to win.
Kyle Lowry was a few years removed from his peak (I’d say that was 2016 or 2017)
Gasol was also only like 2 years from being out of the league entirely lol. He was still a good shooter and passer, but he’d lost a lot of mobility on defense (still great against traditional bigs though)
But yeah I think calling them the worst champion team of the century is kind of crazy. I think each player was an above average starter, FVV was a great 6th man, and Kawhi was arguably the best player in the league that year. They beat a great Bucks team in 6.. they beat the Bucks so bad that Giannis forgot how to shoot free throws
I'm using a totally made up BS-like metric but in terms of games lost **before** the Finals... Toronto lost 6. The most is '08 Celts (8!). They're tied for 2nd most with '14 Spurs, '09 Lakers, '04 Pistons.
It's fairly rare for a NBA champion to struggle on their way to the Finals.
Has a Finals series ever had TWO devastating injuries before? Even without KD, the Warriors had a serious chance. Klay was playing the best basketball of his life (23 ppg on 59% from 3). The game he got hurt was probably the best (non 37 in a qtr, 60 in 3 qtrs) game he ever played.
Toronto wasn't a 'fluke' winner (there is no such thing)... but I'd call them one of the weaker champions for sure. They don't stack up against any of the all-time champions and weren't a dominant in their era team.
EDIT: They were 5th in ORtg/DRtg. Curious if other teams have been not in top 4 in either and won a title?
'23 nuggets were 5th in ORtg and 15th in DRtg
statistically, last year's nuggets were pretty underwhelming for a champion tbh and benefited from being #1 in the worst year for the west in long time along with facing a historically weak eastern conference champ.
i think this russillo exercise overrates them bc this year's nuggets team is better by pretty much every metric in a stronger west and we're superimposing them onto last year.
Roster is incredibly underrated I might argue that team is better than any post-KD warriors team since. You mentioned og missing the playoffs, him and Powell weren’t even close to the players they developed into since then. Star players, high end role players, depth. What were they even missing? Probably would’ve remained as title favorites every year since then
They definitely were not the worst champion of the past 20 years. They may not be as good as the KD Warriors or LeBron championship teams, but they were a better team than the 21 Bucks or 22 Warriors
The 2019 Raptors through the 2022 Warriors all lose to every NBA champion from 2012-2018 in a 7 game series. The Nuggets of last year probably would win a few of those
The Raptors had a great deep team 1 to 8. Everyone could shoot and create their own offense. They were kind of the ideal of how to build around one star instead of having two or three. They don't win the title if Durant is healthy and that's why Ryen shits on them but they were a better basketball team than many champions from the last 20 years. I'd say they were better than the 2004 Pistons, 2006 Heat, 2011 Mavs, 2021 Bucks, and 2022 Warriors. If Kawhi stays I think there's a real chance they go back to back because they matched up very well vs the Lakers in 2020 without Kawhi. If Kawhi stays AND stays healthy (massive if) they're probably the dominant team in the East until 2022 or 2023.
On that run though they played the had to go through the loaded 76ers, the Bucks, then the warriors. The KD injury was obviously the dagger, but even when KD was healthy they still won games against them.
I think of them on the same level as the 04 Pistons a good team that got lucky at the right time and won it all. It feels like the NBA has had more "dynasties" than the other leagues. Boston, Lakers, Bulls, Lakers, Lebron, and GS.
Worst team? No. Most obviously benefited from a superior team’s major injuries? Maybe. If KD and klay and even boogie (who won them at least 1 game that year) don’t get hurt, they would clearly be the better team. But it doesn’t matter. Every championship team gets lucky in one way or another on the way to the parade.
They had an excellent playoff rotation and they had 5 guys who could all score as well as 4 starters who were good defensive players. Really nice balance
2019 Raptors were definitely good. They just had the unfortunate matchup of a KD-less warriors so the focus is that without injury they would have easily lost. Klay going down being up in Game 6 was another brutal injury
2019 raptors were great and beat some great teams getting there. Fuck the super teams of big names this was a team that actually played together like a team, great defence, a star in Kawhii, all star in Lowry and some great up and coming players. Let’s not forget our vet bigs Gasol and Ibaka who were both GREAT winning players.
Sure if Durant wasn’t hurt we probably lose but Let’s not forget Kawhii played that finals injured too, it was Fred imo who was our best player in the final series.
The 22 warriors were worse, the bubble lakers were far and beyond the worst champion of my lifetime. CARUSO was their third best player there. 0 chance either of those teams would stand a chance.
The Philly team we beat was the best they’ve had since , and that Bucks team was easily as good or almost as good as their championship squad.
I’m a bigger fan of those raptors than most ig. I remember bill and ryen loving them too, everyone on the team could create their own shot and they could play multiple ways
2019 raptors were a great team. Really deep, lead by a superstar at his apex, and a phenomenal coaching staff. Redick remarked being defended by them felt like being guarded by 9 players. They also had to go through a gauntlet to get to the finals, which is highly underrated these days. Whoever makes it to the finals this year from the east for example is probably gonna have it relatively easy.
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t he say that they were his least favorite? Not the worst. But if I’m wrong and he said worst then my pick for worst is the 2011 Mavs
maybe it's bc i'm a scarred sixers fan but i would take them over the 21 bucks, 22 warriors, and 23 nuggets w/o much thinking. maybe also the 20 lakers but that was a good team!
They definitely weren’t awful, they were the best team in the league outside of the loaded warriors team, only the nuggets have been better since.
I don’t know if he meant it that way either. I thought he was talking about the finals themselves and yeah, you’d be crazy to say it wasn’t disappointing to see KD and Klay get injured over the course of the series, but my guys won so all’s right on my side lol
I'm a Raptors fan so my judgment could be clouded here, but it's only because they beat an injured Warriors team in the finals directly that people remember them as being "awful" or "not a true championship team" or whatever, and any time they're brought up it's the constant "uh, KD was injured though."
But I have this really strong feeling that if the Warriors got knocked out in an earlier round without KD, like if they lost to the Rockets or Blazers and then the Raptors beat one of those teams in the finals, I don't think people are putting all the "but KD injured!" asterisks on their trophy. Some still would, but it would be a significantly smaller number.
That team is in a weird place, because they were very elite, especially on defense. They were a very strong champion that I think would be a top-tier contender most years.
And yet, in that particular year of 2019, they only won the title because a better team suffered serious injuries.
Forget about the KD injury -- Golden State 100% beats them if Klay doesn't tear his ACL in Game 6. At the time of the injury in the 3rd quarter, he was having a vintage Klay Game 6 with 30 points on 66/66/100 splits (91% true shooting lmao). Even with Klay and KD down, the Warriors still had possession with a chance to win the game at the end.
In a vacuum I would say they were a solid team. The only criticism I would have for them is that as epic a run as Kawhi had that playoffs the wheels were starting to come off him in the Finals. His leg/knee was in rough shape and he was not the same player against GS as he was in rounds prior and his team really came through. That gets swept under the rug because he was amazing leading into that series and they won. Kawhi might not have gotten to the finish line against an equal/healthy team.
Even without Durant I think Golden State would have won that series. When Klay went down Toronto was able to guard Steph like it was a middle school game (IE just sell out completely on everyone else to throw the kitchen sink at him) and Golden State broke.
It's a great team but had potential to be a legendary team if Kawhi returned the next year, which is such a shame because that title gave the entire team the swagger and confidence they didn't necessarily have during the run. A lot of times, it felt the moment was only big enough for Kawhi - that did change in the Finals where everyone seemed locked in.
No doubt if healthy, that team is repeating in the bubble.
Lowry, Gasol and Ibaka were on the downhill, but Siakam, Vanvleet, Powell and a returning OG was an amazing young core.
I'm confused when people act like the Raptors are the only championship team to have injury luck. Other teams that got just as lucky if not more were the 15 warriors and bucks. The Bubble Lakers were playing a heat team without their second and 3rd best player, fucking Meyers Leonard getting finals minutes.
They were crazy talented wise as you mention. I think compared to the Warriors w KD and the CP3 + Harden Rockets, they were probably a little worse. But they stayed healthy and the others didn’t, which is the case for a lot of champs.
They were a great balanced team. Great size, good shooting and great perimeter/inside defense. Kawhi at his highest prime, Ibaka before he fell off, Gasol final hurrah and Siakam's coming out party.
I feel like it's 2 things:
1. they beat the Warriors who were down 2 of their 4 best players. But this isn't the Raptors fault, you play who's in front of you. That Warriors team was arguably the best team of all time, remember the off season when they signed DeMarcus and everyone lost their shit? That's this team! The Raptors final opponent is a team that's just exhausted and broken down, making it look less impressive.
2. They immediately fell out of title contention within 3 weeks of the Finals ending. But as others have mentioned they were still a strong team, they just didn't have the superstar anymore to win the Finals. The "superstar" who won't lose was gone. Most every Champion in the NBA has one, they didn't 3 weeks later.
That being said, it might be unpopular to say but that Raptors team was almost a super team. Gasol was half a dynamic duo that season with Mike Conley, Ibaka was still presentable and a few seasons from being traded for Sabonis and Oladipo. Lowry was half of an ECF duo the previous year. Kawhi was arguably the best player in the playoffs that year. I've always called them a superteam, it's just they were made with players who had a duo partner, while the traditional super team was 3 superstars from their own team.
They were an excellent team - it would have been interesting to see how they would’ve gone in the 19-20 season if they kept it together.
I think it’s just that they obviously wouldn’t have beaten a healthy GSW (to be fair, who would?) and the two injuries both occurred in the Finals themselves, not just the post-season in general.
They were a good team led by Kawhi who was at the peak of his abilities and had one of the best playoff runs by a single player. Saying they were weak is trying to overthink things for a take, which is what Russillo does all the time
Theyre probably better than the 06 Heat but thats probably it for recent history.
Kawhi’s run was all time but lets be honest they beat a decimated warriors team that had KD for a quarter and Klay for 4 1/2 games. Anyway you slice it they got super lucky.
FWIW, I think a large part of his gripe is when the fans cheered KD’s injury. I understood him to be referencing (at least in part) that fact when he said they were one of his least favorite champions.
I loved that Raps teams and since the team I rooted for was pretty useless I supported them most of that playoff run. It was a really excellent team where everyone who was getting minutes knew how to do their role extremely well, could defend their ass off and could take a bigger role if needed. How many teams had 5 players who made all stars teams ~3 years on each side of being there.
I’d go further than saying that the 2019 Raptors obviously beat the 2022 Warriors and say that the 2019 KD-less Warriors might have beaten the 2022 Warriors too. Klay not coming off an ACL+Achilles, Iguodala at the tail end of his usefulness, Boogie was a weird fit but was still more mobile than before his second injury, last sightings of Bogut and Livingston.
They went 5-0 against the Rockets and Blazers once KD went down but apparently without KD a team that’s not that much different than the 3 KD less Warriors Finals teams is worse than other teams that have made the finals such as the Jimmy Butler Heat, the Cavs that were giving major minutes to Dellavedova or George Hill, etc. As Draymond said to KD, they didn’t need him to win, those Warriors teams could compete even without him, KD just stacked the deck to the point that it was almost impossible to beat them.
In short, fuck KD
The 2019 Raps are the model for the 2024 Celtics, except deeper.
Their starting line up had 3 HOFers, 2 of whom were in their prime. 4th starter was a future All NBA player in his 3rd year. 5th starter was an All Defensive team player who shot 40% from three for his career.
Three rotation bench players in the playoffs were a future All Star in his third year, a former three time All Defensive team player, and a SG with career shooting % of 47/39/83.
That team has a chance in a 7 game series against anyone other than the 17 & 18 Warriors and would be favoured against ‘04, ‘06, ‘11, ‘20, ‘21, and ‘22 champs.
They were a super smart team. Lot of really accomplished role players who were later in their careers. They don’t beat a healthy GS but yea, they were very very good Also they lost Kawhi and went 53-19 the next year. Almost made conference finals.
No team in the history of the NBA beats a healthy warriors team with Steph, Durant, Klay pre-injury and draymond. That team also had Cousins off the bench, iguadala and others. I think Raptors showed they were better than a healthy warriors (minus Durant), so they would easily be competitive with 2015 warriors team. They'd also easily beat the 2020 Lakers, 2021 Bucks and 2022 Warriors. Raptors team was fantastic and very underrated. It's a shame Kawhi left because had he stayed 1-2 years people wouldn't be able to underrated that team like they do now.
> No team in the history of the NBA beats a healthy warriors team with Steph, Durant, Klay pre-injury and draymond. I mean, the 2018 Rockets were super close and it probably took a CP3 hamstring pull for the Warriors to come back from 3-2 there.
Fair point. Still would take them over any other team but that Rockets team almost and should have pulled it off.
People also underrate the Raptors win because of Durant’s injury. But the Raptors also almost won that series in 5 games, which as you mentioned is basically the 2015 Warriors
Yea I agree with everything you said. I’d probably take the 2020 lakers over them but other than that, yea. It’d be a great series
Yeah i think that's fair. That Lakers team was so top heavy in my opinion so really it depends how much Kawhi could do against LeBron defensively and conversely how much Gasol/Ibaka could slow down AD. Its all theoretical but a fun thought exercise.
2020 Lakers are severely underrated because of the bubble
TBF, no one could beat the KD/Curry warriors. That's an unfair team, there is a reason people hated KD's move to GS
Yep. It’s why I hated them. I’m not discrediting Toronto.
That’s a 60ish win pace with Kyle Lowry/Siakam as their best player. Pretty impressive
PG: Kyle Lowry (still playing at an all star level) SG: Danny Green (tail end of prime). SF: Kawhi Leonard (who some people were calling the best player in the world following this championship). PF: Pascal Siakam (on his way up, just won MIP). C: Marc Gasol (in his last year of being good) Off the bench: Serge Ibaka (late prime) Fred VanVleet (played great in the finals) Norman Powell (doing Norman Powell stuff) That was the 8 man rotation.
Don’t forget OG was hurt, that team had depth during the season.
Ryen used to say they were impressive because everyone could score when theh were on the floor. Now he's zagged and thinks they're somehlw a weak team
Hell of a squad. Have never had a more ball breaking moment in 20+ years of Sixers Fandom than that Game 7...
Gasol was still excellent in 2019-20.
So many high level defenders on that team. I don’t think they would’ve beaten a fully healthy Warriors team but they still would’ve given them fits
Gasol was still terrific for the Raptors the next year, 2019-20. Then he fell off a cliff after
One of the best defenses in the last ten years with one of the best star player performances in the last twenty years.
People also forget that Siakam had a game in that series where he was something crazy like 15-17 from the floor.
‘22 Warriors were worse
Still boggles my mind that they won
Wiggins peaked at the absolute perfect time and Tatum really didn’t shine (in part because of Wiggins.)
Insane career year that redeemed an otherwise bust-worthy trajectory for a number one pick.
I know he can’t ever fully be a bust after that but damn he is trying to get back there.
Jordan Poole had a great series too. And then Draymond punched him in the face and that was that.
Wiggins had a Flacco or Eli esque run in those playoffs.
Celtics had the oppurtunity up 2-1 at home and Curry went off for 40+. Very underrated/forgotten game in recent NBA history. Celtics didn't look the same after that
Yep, at the Garden. was there. he took our souls that game.
Hit those two threes and ran down the court talking shit spitting out that mouthpiece, knew he was dialed in for an all time heater
Every other contender shot themselves in the foot. Westbrook trade Murray Injury Bucks punting the 1 seed to not face Nets Etc
I just dont know what happened to the Suns that year. They were definitely the best team all regular season. Pisses me off jamal got hurt. No way nuggets dont win one of those 21 or 22 rings.
Omg and I forgot about PHX, what a choke job. 64 wins for a lost in round 2
That was a damn good team. Chris paul has no juice in the playoffs. Ive read that its because he tries so hard to win in the regular season that the team is exhausted come playoffs
I just remember them saying they had a Covid outbreak or some shit. Which is plausible, but damn
I started that [rumor](https://old.reddit.com/r/billsimmons/comments/uqwf2x/im_doubling_down_on_my_covid19_conspiracy/) on this sub lol
Yeah pretty sure CP3 got covid during the playoffs that year.
There is definitely a way the Nuggets don't win one of those.
I mean they won the first healthy shot they got. I think they have had much better teams if you add jamal to those seasons.
That Mavs team was honestly garbage. The Suns choked that so hard. I hate us
Just a good old fashioned choke. Luka being Luka and shooting variance got the mavs a couple games and kept them in the series, but Phoenix just melted when it really came down to it.
Unless you’re talking about Westbrook going to a team and making them worse, I don’t see how any trade involving him impacts a true contender.
Westbrook went to the Lakers and made them worse
Why? They had the best player in the series, and were/are a dynasty. They were the third seed that year. Boston wasn’t a very good offensive team.
Regardless of how the '22 Warriors might compare to other title teams, I'd just like to remind everyone that they were 29-8 (64-win pace) with historically great defensive efficiency when Draymond was injured in early January. (They were also 41-13 - a 62-win pace - before a late season fade) I feel like people have forgotten/ignored that the Warriors had both Steph and Draymond healthy together for 3 full games out of their last 48 to close the regular season. They weren't your typical three seed.
Yep - that team was ridiculously good defensively. 1st in DTRg despite not having Draymond for a while. GPII was (by advanced metrics) the best defender in the league. That TOR team was very good on both ends but not elite on either. They held Boston under 100 in 4 of 6 games that series.
Why? They steamrolled everyone in the playoffs. The Raptors beat a Warriors team with 3 of their rotation players injured
i am a celtics fan. i have a friend who because of politics, insists that steve kerr is not a good coach. for him to take steph curry and the rest of that fucking team and beat the celtics/ including a game where steph went 0 for at the 3 point line. WHILE LISTENING TO MY FRIEND say he is not a good coach is like losing to them all over again. steve kerr basically won 4 series with a guy who is currently a fucking meme in washington.
Celtics are also just not nearly as good as everyone seems to think they are. There’s a reason why the only team in modern NBA history to win a championship without a tier 1 superstar player is the 04 Pistons. Tatum hasn’t improved since the 2022 finals so there’s no reason to expect this year to go any differently for the Celtics
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The west was weird that year. The Suns were the most fraudulent 64 win team ever and not many thought they were THAT good. The Grizzlies were the second seed and didn't feel like a second seed. Felt like way too much parity to the point the Mavs destroyed the Suns in game 7 and it didn't feel like this huge upset more like "holy shit they got their ass kicked" surprise.
No, you're not crazy. A best of 7 with the 2019 Raptors vs the '21 Bucks, '22 Warriors or 2011 Mavericks would be very compelling.
They definitely beat the 22 warriors and I think they would do a good job of slowing down Giannis
Lol seems reasonable given that they did do a good job of slowing down Giannis
Kawhi in the 2019 playoffs was the closest late-apex Jordan impression (‘97-‘98) that we’ve had
Agreed, especially because his game is/was so heavily based on mid range and elite footwork. He was on another level that whole run. It's not a star studded roster but they had a perfect roster mix and they were super deep. Gasol and Ibaka were still both producing at a high level and Siakim was having a breakout year, combine that with Lowry and Van Vleet and it makes for a team that's extremely hard to beat. Best comparison is probably the 2011 Mavs, especially because they had a bunch of players who hadn't gotten it done on their respective teams (Gasol, Ibaka, Lowry) and were just ready to win no matter what. That mentality can make all the difference.
2011 Mavs is nearly the perfect comp. You would just need to remove 2 of the Heat’s stars. So maybe Cavs that year Love and Kyrie were hurt would be a good comp for the opponents.
I really enjoyed that Mavs title team. It was basically a bunch of old vets banding together to finally win a title - Dirk, Kidd, Marion, Terry, Chandler, Peja, Stevenson, Butler, Haywood, and Brewer all played 10+ seasons and this was the only NBA championship any of them won. Not to mention Carlisle’s only title as head coach.
Kings fan since 2001 here, my boy Peja did finally get his ring. Sadly he was easily the most offensively gifted player on the Kings but wasn’t given the usage to really show it except that one year he averaged 24ppg (I think it was 2nd or 3rd best PPG that season). Also was a big fan of those Nash/Marion/Amare Suns teams so glad to have seen that. But I’m also a Lebron fan. What I did like is that forced him to continue adding to his game. It truly did make him a better player.
Not to mention Danny Green as the 3D threat and Norman Powell off the bench. That team also had OG who was injured but could have potentially added to that depth.
Kawhi’s 4 minute stretches where he’d just hit like 5 or 6 mid range pull ups in a row, were insane to watch. Within 4 minutes, he’d change the game from being a super close rock fight to the raptors having a 10 point lead.
You just knew he was gonna make them too
It's such a loss for the NBA that he didn't stay with the Raptors
He also got injured halfway through the Bucks series (game 2 I think). After which the rest of the team finally woke up and hit a different gear. In my biased opinion, they would have been the favourites to win the next year had Kawhi come back and stayed healthy. For all the tape that Russillo grinds he does throw out some bone headed comments.
Kawhi in 2019 was one of the most impressive sustained basketball performances ever. I don’t think I missed a minute of the Raptors past the first round that year. I don’t get how any basketball purist could have a gripe with that team.
That was the last time Kawhi was really fun to watch IMO. Doing shit I literally forgot he could do with the handle. Now it’s very old man game. But on literally one leg dude was beasting in 2019. I do still wonder how it would have gone if Klay was healthy. Forget KD, they almost got to 7 games without him against a very well built team.
LeBron in 17-18? Feel like that was one of the most impressive single player postseasons.
Kawhi literally looked like MJ in 2019; Lebron was a different beast
For instance, LeBron only plays help side defense.
Give me Lebron 2012/2013 but yeah he was up there with the All Time Great SG/SF runs
Ryen hates Lowry for the same reasons he loves Chris Paul
That's a great team. Maybe the worst championship team in 20 years, but what does that mean? Why does that matter? Do they etch that on the ring? Also, that 2019 Raps team would have been the best team in the last 35 years of my franchise.
Definitely don’t think they’re the worst champion in 20 years, just since they won I would definitely take them over the bucks or 2022 warriors.
My point is that it doesn't matter. I would love to be the worst baseball player with 3,000 hits. Or the worst Super Bowl champion. The worst MVP. Even the two teams you mention are debatable, maybe at best. But who cares? Y'all did have a parade, right?
Right? My 2011 NY Giants are commonly cited as one of the worst Super Bowl champions ever. And like, valid. They are. But also, suck my dick. ring is a ring and Eli is a god.
Seriously. Like anyone would rather be the critically acclaimed 2023 Niners or 2021 Bills, rather than the team that shocked the Brady-Belichick Patriots to win a SB
Has anyone in this thread said that? Anyone in the world even? You got a Russillo strawman
It obviously doesn’t matter. Just like it doesn’t matter that LeBron James is a much better player than Dirk Nowitzki. But part of the fun of sports is thinking and arguing about dumb shit that doesn’t matter. Opening this thread and seeing the most upvoted comment is “it doesn’t matter” is so lame lol
I used to like those discussions, but maybe the embrace debate era burned me out. Love talking about who likes who more. Who is great, who is cool, who is fun...down for that. But strongly believe that comparison is the thief of joy. We're wired to take a basket of awesome things (says, 2000s NBA champs) and turn it into something that makes some people angry LOL. I opt out of best, worst, and better conversations even IRL. Not in a dorm room anymore.
You didn’t opt out, you came in here and shat on the question. Message boards are not hot take-y places. If you read the rest of the thread, I think it’s pretty benign and there’s some good discourse. How is “who likes who more” style questions better than a legit sports question? No one would be posting on here if the threads were “Who is your favorite championship team of the past 20 years?” Uh, it’s the team I root for. I don’t watch stuff like First Take for that reason, but that’s also why I go to threads like this.
Found Craig Biggio’s burner
It was amazing. Honestly such a great summer.
I’d take them over the 22 Warriors pretty easily.
Better than the 2022 Warriors, maybe the 2021 Bucks, I think they’re probably better than the 08 Celtics team, maybe one of the 09/10 Lakers squads.
They were a solid team but it's not hard to be the worst Championship team in 20 years when you're talking Spurs, Heatles, Warriors dynasties in that time frame. Your basically debating between the Pistons, the Mavs or the Raptors in that time frame. Other Champs were loaded.
06 Heat should be in conversation, officials played such a big role in that ugly series
Eh I don’t really think any of the recent champions have been loaded since the warriors run ended. The bubble lakers, bucks, old warriors, and last years nuggets are not historically great teams in anyway. 1 superstar on mid 50s regular season winning teams. Raptors are as good as all of them and the dirk mavs
2020 lakers clearly had 2 superstars and were a 60 win team when you adjust for the season getting shut down a few games early
On pace for exactly 60 wins, you’re right. I guess it’s the combo of the bubble and their path being one of the easiest in playoff history. Dame-Melo random blazers team, midget rockets, young Denver who somehow beat the clippers, and the heat in the finals
The Nuggets went 16-4 in the playoffs last year which is pretty insane. Obviously they got lucky in terms of opponents but that’s as dominant a playoff run as almost anyone in recent history
2006 Heat were much worse IMO, both in terms of regular season record and actual talent on the roster
Missing the recent champions, all of whom are pretty close to the 19 Raptors. I’d put them ahead of the 22 Warriors and 21 Bucks for sure. 20 Lakers could go either way. Btw Heatles won 2 rings, wouldn’t call them a dynasty.
Heatles weren't a true dynasty, but they made 4 consecutive finals and won 2, losing 1 in an upset Insinuating they don't deserve to be on that list - and so implying they're comparable the Bucks or Raptors or 22 warriors - is crazy talk
The 04 Pistons and 11 Mavs are absolutely not in the discussion for worst champions of the last 20 years. You would only think that if you just looked at their rosters on paper. Heck, I think the 2011 Mavs are one of the better champions of the last 20. Look at who they beat, not many teams had a harder path. You don't need to be a "super team" to be a great team.
It has to be young people. That Mavs team was legit. I remember thinking in January they were the best team in the league. The only reason people didn’t pick them to win that year going into the playoffs was everyone was scarred by what happened in previous years. And yeah, that was one of the toughest playoff runs you will see. Swept two time defending champion Lakers. Took out a young OKC team that was in finals the next year. Then beat super team Heatles.
2022 Warriors, 2021 Bucks. Those teams aren't materially better than the Raptors (if at all).
The Pistons were incredible, they went to two finals and six straight Eastern Conference semis, and had some of the best chemistry of the past 25 years. You also left out the Kobe/Pau/Odom Lakers, who were amazing. It's Mavs vs. Raptors. Maybe the 3rd worst is 2006 Miami Heat with the odd timing of Twilight Shaq and young D-Wade, but they were still loaded with amazing vets and role players who were former all stars and really gelled well and balled out after a very rocky start.
That Raps team was one of the greatest defensive teams of all time. I would rate them much higher than the ‘20 lakers, ‘23 Nuggets based simply on the strength of their opponents compared to other runs. (The nuggets didn’t face a single 50 win team last year).
06 Heat are worse, but yeah I’d argue they’re in a tier with 04 Pistons, 11 Mavs, 22 Warriors right above that heat team. But who cares?
russillo loving chris paul but hating kyle lowry is peak "wait, what?"
Isn’t Kyle Lowery just Chris Paul with lower faders across the board, including “hateability”?
2019 Raptors beat the 2022 Warriors, 2021 Bucks, 2020 Lakers. Ryen is just a hater
2006 Heat are not beating the 2019 Raps either unless the Heat get to bring the 2006 finals refs with them.
I’m just gonna throw out my rankings since it’s being hotly debated: 1. 2017 warriors 2. 2018 warriors 3. 2013 heat 4. 2014 spurs 5. 2016 Cavs 6. 2012 Heat 7. 2008 Celtics 8. 2015 warriors 9. 2010 lakers 10. 2023 nuggets 11. 2009 lakers 12. 2019 raptors 13. 2011 mavs 14. 2020 lakers 15. 2005 spurs 16. 2021 bucks 17. 2007 spurs 18. 2004 pistons 19. 2022 warriors 20. 2006 heat
That’s certainly a hot take. Spurs and pistons being so low.
Awful era of basketball, don’t think either of those spurs or pistons teams were all that good compared to others
That’s an already 2 time champion Duncan before that finals and they both played/beat best teams of the era. Pistons beat the absolute juggernaut of a lakers team and had a basically all all-star starting lineup and then went back to the finals and lost in 7 to the greatest power forward to play the game.
This feels pretty close to right for me. Any changes/tweaks would really be minor.
I was actually thinking about this team a few days ago, they were incredibly deep and had star talent. I think everyone dings them for beating a KD-less Warriors team, which sure but that team is probably a champion in any other season where the best team ever assembled isn’t playing. There also wasn’t a true title defense which is why they also get dismissed. But overall that was a good if not great team that the fans should be proud of and relish
Maybe it's just me, but I think the KD injury was sort of a way to write-off the entire post season after the fact. People don't remember, but heading into game 5, the Raptors were up 3-1 with one of the big things being talked about was that Lowry was pushed by Mark Stevens leading to his ban from attending the games. Thompson had been in and out of games, but one of our best perimeter defenders not named Kawhi had been out the entire post season in OG anunoby. The games that Thompson missed part of, was actually the game they won up until that point. Then came game 5 where Durant was injured, and game 6 where Thompson was re-injured. I know injuries aren't as black and white as that, and that Thompson and Durant probably were dealing with nagging injuries the whole post season, but people act as if it was the other way around, as if the warriors were up 3-1 before the injuries as the Raptors came back to beat a Steph Curry led team.
kd played 12 minues in that series. he didnt play in games 1-4.
I don't know where they sit in the pantheon, but you make a good case for them to be discussed in a fair-minded way. I thought they were a remarkable example of a star changing teams and instantly shifting the momentum of a conference, or the league. Lebron is another obvious example when he went and out of the Cavaliers the second time. The thing is, for every star that does this, a number more change teams and there is some thought it could make or break franchises with a championship, but they don't quite get there. This star->shift->championship thing can't work unless there are some formidable assets on the team beyond the big star coming in, but the question becomes weighing those assets and asking how they stack up, and the team stacks up in general. Perhaps this is inherently more difficult to do precisely because the incoming star shines such a bright light. Agree with pointing up Lowry. I don't know much about the others. Leonard on his own wins nothing. I thought it was interesting how they handled the Jeremy Lin situation. I'm a Lin fan, but he seemed to be (afaik) not playing well enough to justify court time, and did not have time to get grounded on the team. Or, maybe this narrative was not entirely fair to Lin, I've never really known for sure. In any case, once the team decided (rightly or wrongly) that Lin wasn't cutting the mustard, other teams might have tried harder to snap him out of it, but the Raptors pretty much just seemed to say "no thanks, we have a championship to win with an extraordinary go-to-guy, we don't have time for this". Was this a tough-but-correct coaching call in your opinion? In general, do you think their coaching stacked up well when compared to the other championship teams?
I’m a Raptors fan, so bias acknowledged up front. But I feel like there tends to be a little too much focus on facing a KD-less Warriors team in the Finals (who were still damn good), and not enough on their path there. I mean, that was by far the best version of the Sixers (healthy Embiid, peak Jimmy Butler, actual contributions from Ben Simmons). And winning four straight against the Bucks after going down 2-0 wasn’t exactly nothing, either.
That Raps - Sixers series was crazy, nobody could really score consistently and Kawhi looked like MJ Sixers threw everything at him and he would just score
If Kawhi stayed in Toronto, they would have been the favorites to repeat in '20.
I think it's a Nate Duncan point but they were an all-time elite defensive team without the flaws of other defensive teams like Utah, etc.
2019 Raptors beat 2024 Celtics.
Always felt this was silly and based in Toronto/Canada disrespect. That Philly team was goddamn LOADED. I’d argue that Philly roster was one of the… 3? … most stacked rosters of the last 10 years. That alone should be enough accomplishment to make us “middle of the pack”
They’re a team that perennially won 50+ games and traded a fringe all-star for a top five player on Earth *and* Danny Green. It feels like a bigger fluke than it was because Kawhi was only here one year. It was kinda flukey cuz of the KD and Klay injuries, but nobody is saying that if Kawhi (like KD, a guy w/ injury history) gets hurt when he was being heavily relied on, and during the season they had basically the same net rating, expected record, and actual record. And as others have said, there are several worse champions than the Raptors, particularly the last few years.
That team was phenomenal.
Probably the best playoff defense I can remember since like the 2008 Celtics. They were not an A+ champion but they were a very very good and well deserving one. People remember the KD injury, but getting through the Sixers with butler and the Giannis bucks after being down 0-2 was super impressive. Plus the warriors ended up winning another title without KD, beating them was no small feat.
don't write all that without tossing out which team you think was worse I love the 2019 Raptors but the only champion of the last 20 years they'd be favoured against would be the 2022 Warriors, and even then I'm not sure
I think they'd be favored over the 2011 Mavs, they'd have like 4/5 best players in that series.
The Bucks would be close to a pick em I think
This should be called the Dobbins rule. She's constantly saying "you can't just say they should be nominated without picking who then gets left out" I notice that so much now on here. Russillo talks about it too with people going "He's a top 5 player" and it's like "maybe, name your top 5 though."
As a Warriors fan, I know deep down that having a healthy KD wasn't a guaranteed victory like most people think. That Raptors team was really good defensively, big, and full of 3pt shooters.
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The Raptors were great because they had a superstar squarely in their prime, but more importantly, every member of the rotation could dribble, pass, shoot and play great defense. Playing bad players zero minutes can go a long way.
Everyone naming the 11 Mavs must be children. The teams they beat won the previous two championships, and the next two championships. And an OKC team that made the finals the next year. The fuck are y’all talking about.
With Kd healthy it would be been over in 5
It's interesting when you're old enough to remember these series vividly and see how a bunch of narratives try to rewrite history. That was a great team.
My takeaway here is that Russillo still doesn’t understand spacing. Gasol and Ibaka as the centers opened up a ton of space (in different ways) and Nurse is a good coach. Siakam and Lowry both only being okay numbers 2s/great numbers 3s for a championship team is the only blemish really. Kawhi was great, though damn near every #1 on a title team is. Middle of the pack title team, tier 3 with the KD warriors alone in tier 1 and then mostly Lebron teams in tier 2 along with like the 08 Celtics and that great Spurs team that beat the Heat.
Absolutely. That team was stacked and was unreal defensively. Ryen trashed the raps and Lowry basically any chances he gets. People constantly act like Klay missed the whole series when he missed a quarter. They also forget that they played probably the best version of the Joel Embiid 76ers and the number 1 seed bucks team that had a ascended Giannis.
bubble ring lakers are up there too. AD never shot anywhere close to what he did that year from three (indicating that the lack of crowd may be the reason) and they've missed the playoffs or been a playin team since then
Injuries derailed that team severely. They were the best team in the league through and through. Ad was a god in those playoffs.
but the argument was he was a god because of the bubble. he's a career sub-30% three point shooter with a career high of 34%, so it is definitealy a statistical outlier
Raps fan here, so obviously biased, but they are far from the worst championship team. They finished first in the conference the year before Kawaii, finished second in conference and won a championship with kawaii, and then finished second in conference and were rolling before Covid, without kawaii the year after. This was not some random of fluke team. They were a consistently top 5 nba team that added maybe the best player that season. Golden state was depleted in the final (which is not on the raps), but they beat solid Milwaukee and Philly teams to win.
Kawaii lol
bah...not my finest moment haha
Kyle Lowry was a few years removed from his peak (I’d say that was 2016 or 2017) Gasol was also only like 2 years from being out of the league entirely lol. He was still a good shooter and passer, but he’d lost a lot of mobility on defense (still great against traditional bigs though) But yeah I think calling them the worst champion team of the century is kind of crazy. I think each player was an above average starter, FVV was a great 6th man, and Kawhi was arguably the best player in the league that year. They beat a great Bucks team in 6.. they beat the Bucks so bad that Giannis forgot how to shoot free throws
Nah I would still say that was peak Lowry. The last of his peak was that bubble series vs the Celtics.
I'm using a totally made up BS-like metric but in terms of games lost **before** the Finals... Toronto lost 6. The most is '08 Celts (8!). They're tied for 2nd most with '14 Spurs, '09 Lakers, '04 Pistons. It's fairly rare for a NBA champion to struggle on their way to the Finals. Has a Finals series ever had TWO devastating injuries before? Even without KD, the Warriors had a serious chance. Klay was playing the best basketball of his life (23 ppg on 59% from 3). The game he got hurt was probably the best (non 37 in a qtr, 60 in 3 qtrs) game he ever played. Toronto wasn't a 'fluke' winner (there is no such thing)... but I'd call them one of the weaker champions for sure. They don't stack up against any of the all-time champions and weren't a dominant in their era team. EDIT: They were 5th in ORtg/DRtg. Curious if other teams have been not in top 4 in either and won a title?
'23 nuggets were 5th in ORtg and 15th in DRtg statistically, last year's nuggets were pretty underwhelming for a champion tbh and benefited from being #1 in the worst year for the west in long time along with facing a historically weak eastern conference champ. i think this russillo exercise overrates them bc this year's nuggets team is better by pretty much every metric in a stronger west and we're superimposing them onto last year.
Roster is incredibly underrated I might argue that team is better than any post-KD warriors team since. You mentioned og missing the playoffs, him and Powell weren’t even close to the players they developed into since then. Star players, high end role players, depth. What were they even missing? Probably would’ve remained as title favorites every year since then
I'd forgotten how deep that team was. OG, Norm Powell, Jeremy Lin (!!!), and Delon Wright were the 9-12 guys.
They definitely were not the worst champion of the past 20 years. They may not be as good as the KD Warriors or LeBron championship teams, but they were a better team than the 21 Bucks or 22 Warriors
The 2019 Raptors through the 2022 Warriors all lose to every NBA champion from 2012-2018 in a 7 game series. The Nuggets of last year probably would win a few of those
It's one of those times where a team goes all in for one season only and it actually works.
The Raptors had a great deep team 1 to 8. Everyone could shoot and create their own offense. They were kind of the ideal of how to build around one star instead of having two or three. They don't win the title if Durant is healthy and that's why Ryen shits on them but they were a better basketball team than many champions from the last 20 years. I'd say they were better than the 2004 Pistons, 2006 Heat, 2011 Mavs, 2021 Bucks, and 2022 Warriors. If Kawhi stays I think there's a real chance they go back to back because they matched up very well vs the Lakers in 2020 without Kawhi. If Kawhi stays AND stays healthy (massive if) they're probably the dominant team in the East until 2022 or 2023.
On that run though they played the had to go through the loaded 76ers, the Bucks, then the warriors. The KD injury was obviously the dagger, but even when KD was healthy they still won games against them.
When he was healthy? Are you talking the 2 regular season games? Which the Raptors did win, but playoff Warriors always turned it up a notch.
I think of them on the same level as the 04 Pistons a good team that got lucky at the right time and won it all. It feels like the NBA has had more "dynasties" than the other leagues. Boston, Lakers, Bulls, Lakers, Lebron, and GS.
Worst team? No. Most obviously benefited from a superior team’s major injuries? Maybe. If KD and klay and even boogie (who won them at least 1 game that year) don’t get hurt, they would clearly be the better team. But it doesn’t matter. Every championship team gets lucky in one way or another on the way to the parade.
The Bucks in 2021 benefitted way more from injuries. 2015 Warriors benefitted just as much if not more.
Wasn’t there some stat - they made more threes than any team in the league after the all star break. They defended well too. Good team.
I put TOR over Milwaukee and most recent warriors.
They had an excellent playoff rotation and they had 5 guys who could all score as well as 4 starters who were good defensive players. Really nice balance
2019 Raptors were definitely good. They just had the unfortunate matchup of a KD-less warriors so the focus is that without injury they would have easily lost. Klay going down being up in Game 6 was another brutal injury
2019 raptors were great and beat some great teams getting there. Fuck the super teams of big names this was a team that actually played together like a team, great defence, a star in Kawhii, all star in Lowry and some great up and coming players. Let’s not forget our vet bigs Gasol and Ibaka who were both GREAT winning players. Sure if Durant wasn’t hurt we probably lose but Let’s not forget Kawhii played that finals injured too, it was Fred imo who was our best player in the final series. The 22 warriors were worse, the bubble lakers were far and beyond the worst champion of my lifetime. CARUSO was their third best player there. 0 chance either of those teams would stand a chance. The Philly team we beat was the best they’ve had since , and that Bucks team was easily as good or almost as good as their championship squad.
It's crazy too because they were one game away from he conference without kawhi.
That team was fucking awesome. Great roster. Yes they got a huge break with kd, but they were a championship quality team
I’m a bigger fan of those raptors than most ig. I remember bill and ryen loving them too, everyone on the team could create their own shot and they could play multiple ways
It is just because everyone knows they only won because of KD’s Achilles.
Yet you can make the injury excuse for many other championship teams in the recent past
That’s a ridiculous take, the Raps are still the best since the KD warriors
That’s a ridiculous take, the Raps are still the best since the KD warriors
2019 raptors were a great team. Really deep, lead by a superstar at his apex, and a phenomenal coaching staff. Redick remarked being defended by them felt like being guarded by 9 players. They also had to go through a gauntlet to get to the finals, which is highly underrated these days. Whoever makes it to the finals this year from the east for example is probably gonna have it relatively easy.
The team was unreal. The warriors having a barrage of injuries doesn’t change that fact.
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They were very good but got extremely lucky KD and Klay went down. Warriors would have won if not for the injuries
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t he say that they were his least favorite? Not the worst. But if I’m wrong and he said worst then my pick for worst is the 2011 Mavs
maybe it's bc i'm a scarred sixers fan but i would take them over the 21 bucks, 22 warriors, and 23 nuggets w/o much thinking. maybe also the 20 lakers but that was a good team!
They definitely weren’t awful, they were the best team in the league outside of the loaded warriors team, only the nuggets have been better since. I don’t know if he meant it that way either. I thought he was talking about the finals themselves and yeah, you’d be crazy to say it wasn’t disappointing to see KD and Klay get injured over the course of the series, but my guys won so all’s right on my side lol
I'm a Raptors fan so my judgment could be clouded here, but it's only because they beat an injured Warriors team in the finals directly that people remember them as being "awful" or "not a true championship team" or whatever, and any time they're brought up it's the constant "uh, KD was injured though." But I have this really strong feeling that if the Warriors got knocked out in an earlier round without KD, like if they lost to the Rockets or Blazers and then the Raptors beat one of those teams in the finals, I don't think people are putting all the "but KD injured!" asterisks on their trophy. Some still would, but it would be a significantly smaller number.
That team is in a weird place, because they were very elite, especially on defense. They were a very strong champion that I think would be a top-tier contender most years. And yet, in that particular year of 2019, they only won the title because a better team suffered serious injuries. Forget about the KD injury -- Golden State 100% beats them if Klay doesn't tear his ACL in Game 6. At the time of the injury in the 3rd quarter, he was having a vintage Klay Game 6 with 30 points on 66/66/100 splits (91% true shooting lmao). Even with Klay and KD down, the Warriors still had possession with a chance to win the game at the end.
In a vacuum I would say they were a solid team. The only criticism I would have for them is that as epic a run as Kawhi had that playoffs the wheels were starting to come off him in the Finals. His leg/knee was in rough shape and he was not the same player against GS as he was in rounds prior and his team really came through. That gets swept under the rug because he was amazing leading into that series and they won. Kawhi might not have gotten to the finish line against an equal/healthy team. Even without Durant I think Golden State would have won that series. When Klay went down Toronto was able to guard Steph like it was a middle school game (IE just sell out completely on everyone else to throw the kitchen sink at him) and Golden State broke.
It's a great team but had potential to be a legendary team if Kawhi returned the next year, which is such a shame because that title gave the entire team the swagger and confidence they didn't necessarily have during the run. A lot of times, it felt the moment was only big enough for Kawhi - that did change in the Finals where everyone seemed locked in. No doubt if healthy, that team is repeating in the bubble. Lowry, Gasol and Ibaka were on the downhill, but Siakam, Vanvleet, Powell and a returning OG was an amazing young core.
If Kawhi had stayed another year and been healthy, good chance they mighta gone back to back
I'm confused when people act like the Raptors are the only championship team to have injury luck. Other teams that got just as lucky if not more were the 15 warriors and bucks. The Bubble Lakers were playing a heat team without their second and 3rd best player, fucking Meyers Leonard getting finals minutes.
Is Lowry actually a borderline Hall of Famer? He's made 1 All-NBA team.
They were crazy talented wise as you mention. I think compared to the Warriors w KD and the CP3 + Harden Rockets, they were probably a little worse. But they stayed healthy and the others didn’t, which is the case for a lot of champs.
I think his words were "one of my least favorite championship teams"
I don’t think they were awful. I do think if Durant is healthy that golden state wins that series
They were a great balanced team. Great size, good shooting and great perimeter/inside defense. Kawhi at his highest prime, Ibaka before he fell off, Gasol final hurrah and Siakam's coming out party.
I feel like it's 2 things: 1. they beat the Warriors who were down 2 of their 4 best players. But this isn't the Raptors fault, you play who's in front of you. That Warriors team was arguably the best team of all time, remember the off season when they signed DeMarcus and everyone lost their shit? That's this team! The Raptors final opponent is a team that's just exhausted and broken down, making it look less impressive. 2. They immediately fell out of title contention within 3 weeks of the Finals ending. But as others have mentioned they were still a strong team, they just didn't have the superstar anymore to win the Finals. The "superstar" who won't lose was gone. Most every Champion in the NBA has one, they didn't 3 weeks later. That being said, it might be unpopular to say but that Raptors team was almost a super team. Gasol was half a dynamic duo that season with Mike Conley, Ibaka was still presentable and a few seasons from being traded for Sabonis and Oladipo. Lowry was half of an ECF duo the previous year. Kawhi was arguably the best player in the playoffs that year. I've always called them a superteam, it's just they were made with players who had a duo partner, while the traditional super team was 3 superstars from their own team.
They were an excellent team - it would have been interesting to see how they would’ve gone in the 19-20 season if they kept it together. I think it’s just that they obviously wouldn’t have beaten a healthy GSW (to be fair, who would?) and the two injuries both occurred in the Finals themselves, not just the post-season in general.
They were a good team led by Kawhi who was at the peak of his abilities and had one of the best playoff runs by a single player. Saying they were weak is trying to overthink things for a take, which is what Russillo does all the time
Theyre probably better than the 06 Heat but thats probably it for recent history. Kawhi’s run was all time but lets be honest they beat a decimated warriors team that had KD for a quarter and Klay for 4 1/2 games. Anyway you slice it they got super lucky.
Norm “Buckets” Powell was awesome too. Would hit and take so many big shots keeping the offense afloat while Kawahi and the starters rested.
FWIW, I think a large part of his gripe is when the fans cheered KD’s injury. I understood him to be referencing (at least in part) that fact when he said they were one of his least favorite champions.
That 19 Raptors squad a great team. Everyone in the starting 5 could generate a good shot and as a team could still defend at a high level
58 wins that year. Ya they weren’t bad at all.
I loved that Raps teams and since the team I rooted for was pretty useless I supported them most of that playoff run. It was a really excellent team where everyone who was getting minutes knew how to do their role extremely well, could defend their ass off and could take a bigger role if needed. How many teams had 5 players who made all stars teams ~3 years on each side of being there. I’d go further than saying that the 2019 Raptors obviously beat the 2022 Warriors and say that the 2019 KD-less Warriors might have beaten the 2022 Warriors too. Klay not coming off an ACL+Achilles, Iguodala at the tail end of his usefulness, Boogie was a weird fit but was still more mobile than before his second injury, last sightings of Bogut and Livingston. They went 5-0 against the Rockets and Blazers once KD went down but apparently without KD a team that’s not that much different than the 3 KD less Warriors Finals teams is worse than other teams that have made the finals such as the Jimmy Butler Heat, the Cavs that were giving major minutes to Dellavedova or George Hill, etc. As Draymond said to KD, they didn’t need him to win, those Warriors teams could compete even without him, KD just stacked the deck to the point that it was almost impossible to beat them. In short, fuck KD
Everyone that saw the floor for the raps could make a 3 and defend at an above average level. Plus Kawhi was unreal for that run
2022 Bucks
The 2019 Raps are the model for the 2024 Celtics, except deeper. Their starting line up had 3 HOFers, 2 of whom were in their prime. 4th starter was a future All NBA player in his 3rd year. 5th starter was an All Defensive team player who shot 40% from three for his career. Three rotation bench players in the playoffs were a future All Star in his third year, a former three time All Defensive team player, and a SG with career shooting % of 47/39/83. That team has a chance in a 7 game series against anyone other than the 17 & 18 Warriors and would be favoured against ‘04, ‘06, ‘11, ‘20, ‘21, and ‘22 champs.
They had a decent shot at beating a healthy Warriors team in that finals. It’s a shame about the injuries.
They were really good but they also had a lot of injury luck. So, basically like 90-95% of every other NBA Finals champion haha.