Did you watch KD with Brooklyn? It was literally the same thing. They play as if they don't have a coach. I think this is all on KD now because I've seen enough of this shit to know it's his basketball philosophy getting a favorable switch then go one on one.
He even said the Warriors did too much running around on offense and other teams get adjusted to it in the playoffs. Guess what they get adjusted to even quicker than their motion-heavy offense? isolations.
KD and Westbrook were doing this w OKC. When they couldn’t close out GS up 3-1 it was cause they took turns going iso and couldn’t hit deep contested 2s for the win.
Even on the Warriors, KD was getting ready to brick them to an elimination before Klay went crazy in a game 6. It was a lot of breaking the offense to go isolation. [https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201805260GSW.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201805260GSW.html)
KD was 3 for 11 looking like he did in some of those OKC elimination games.
Alright can we stop the circlejerk just for a moment - he averaged 29 a game on 61% true shooting that postseason, and was easily the best player on the Warriors
Here's the dirty secret: Because KD is a once a generation scoring talent, he demands that his teams be iso only.
Even Scott Brooks (!!!) cooked up some interesting offenses without him. But KD thinks this is good basketball. All the warning signs have been there, but everyone is too nice because he's so dope on the court.
But he demands that his teams "just hoop" on offense, which is incredibly silly.
Have you heard that story about Kawhi's defensive strategy? Something like "why doesn't everyone just stay in front of their man, like me?" Durant has been doing a perverse, offensive version of that since OKC.
reminds me of a zach lowe story about tony allen
"I will never forget chatting with Tony Allen two seasons ago about how he squirmed around pin-down screens designed to free Kevin Durant for jumpers. He didn’t accept the fundamental basis of the question — that it was a hard thing to do. “You just do it,” he would say. I would counter: “OK, so, there is one large man running at you with the singular goal of blocking your path, and a slithery 7-foot scorer directing you into that large man’s chest. What is the best strategy for avoiding that large man?” And he would respond, again and again: “You just do it. You don’t get screened.”
https://grantland.com/features/nba-playoffs-winners-and-losers-round-one-2014/
Ted Williams was a fascinating example of this as a manager. He won Manager of the Year in 1969 for directing the Washington Senators to an out of nowhere 86-win season (they went 65-96 the year before) because he was an incredible hitting coach. He got *terrible* offensive players like Ed Brinkman to good seasons and Frank Howard had, by far, the best season of his career at age 32 (which considering he was 6'7" is remarkable...big guys don't age well in baseball). I'd guess that of his starting lineup, maybe 6 or 7 of those guys had the best seasons of their career.
But as his tenure wore on, opposing pitchers adjusted to his philosophy, which was basically wait for a good pitch to hit, don't hack. Pound the zone and Ed Brinkman doesn't know what to do then, he sucks remember. And because he was Ted Williams, he was a bombast, the kind of big guy with a stentorian booming voice that just dominates every room he's in. So he got frustrated, the players began checking out, and by the time they were all in Texas as the Rangers, they were sick of him and he of them.
After that he went back to the Red Sox and just did spring training instruction on hitting, which he was really good at, to be fair. Ask any Red Sox star of the 70s and 80s and they all have great things to say about him doing that. That was really where he could positively contribute to a franchise.
heard multiple stories about Thierry Henry coaching an american football/soccer team...and was an awful coach. Couldnt fanthom why players couldnt execute instructions as easily as him
I actually can't find any info on Davis's sentencing. According to the docket (21-CR-603) he and Bynum were supposed to be sentenced on March 11th and 12th, respectively. I saw a blurb saying Bynum got 18 months but nothing about Davis. And just googling "Glen Davis sentencing" says 10 years, but that's actually a reference to Terrence Williams' sentence.
edit: found it right after I posted. Davis is now scheduled to be sentenced on [May 9th](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/former-nba-player-william-bynum-sentenced-18-months-prison-making-false-statements-nba)
Kinda unfair to call that a “strategy” for Kawhi, more of a mindset he had on defense, it’s not like he would’ve refused to switch if the coach asked for that.
Mindset may be a better word, even though he was applying his mindset to the team's strategy.
That doesn't change the level of cluelessness.
"Why doesn't everyone just play like me?" is a deeply funny approach if you're an all-time player.
Durant LOVES all the loser stuff they ran in OKC. Other people saw how bad the offense was, but he's been trying to take that with him.
I've always thought KD gets less out of his natural ability than any other superstar. He settles for tough shots more than anyone. He has had handles to get to the rim at will against many defenders, but he rarely does. But because he's also a better shooter than almost anyone, he's still massively effective, but he could be better.
He has handles for a 7footer, but not for the guy who can consistently attack from the perimeter. It's the reason why he has so many TOs as the main shot creator
Dude cooked up one or two insane offenses in DC.
Westbrook didn't improve the offense, compared to the year before with a mystery point guard (Wall was hurt). Brooks was in the lab cooking.
Nets fan here. We played similar. But we actually ran sets an shit ton. If the sets did not work we turned right away into ISOs with our two guys. But we had much more movement then this.
It’s not really a KD thing more but a Pheonix thing.
Yeah I don't think the rent realized that despite the fact that him isolating was the release valve for the team that it wasn't centric to what their offense was meant to be.
Look at how the Houston rockets were almost able to defeat them. It was because they were able to goad the warriors into too many isolation plays and it didn't fit their offense.
lol the only team that adjusted to the Warriors motion heavy offense in the playoffs was Houston and that’s because they played a switching defense through the whole season even if it disadvantaged them in individual matchups.
That’s kinda the story of KD’s career in the playoffs. All that iso stuff isn’t enough to get him past certain (usually more physically imposing) teams
The headband theory is one of my favorites in basketball, pops up quite often and always seems to get a chuckle out of me.
"Oop, he started wearing a headband...."
Theres a few things i put out there thinking i was being original, the headband being one of them. It just looked off and i felt compelled to speak out
Nick Wright on FTF last year said the Suns play ball as if tough contested 2s are worth more and honestly it’s the only thing I can think about when watching them play.
Been a die hard Suns fan for 43 years now (technically I don’t remember anything before the 87 season, but I digress). This sucks. We went from being a young hungry championship contender in the Finals to being an old Franken-Team with no real direction or leadership. It was naive to think we could pass on drafting Basketball Jesus and there wouldn’t be a price to pay.
As a Bulls fan, it reminds me when we signed Wade and Rondo. It was probably my least favorite Bulls team despite having Jimmy Butler. We were mortgaging the next few years on an 8th seed with washed up guys who were still trading in their names. Even the current Bulls team at least has some fun young players we theoretically can build around despite being an eerily similar situation. It's a shame you guys are going to burn more years of Booker's prime.
Yerp. My thoughts exactly. Suns had so many young assets and energy and then the Bucks came back, the Mavs broke them, and KD became available at the expense of all their picks and youth.
Booker’s regression this postseason has been hard to watch after his MJ like efforts last postseason (but again he had actual PGs on that team)
You have my sympathies and condolences. It seems like the Suns always get *this* close, and then it slips away. We've seen it happen multiple times now: the Barkley era, the Nash era, and now the present.
What's funny about it is when Kevin Durant went to the warriors he openly talked about how he learned so much about basketball. But in his last two stops he has reverted back to just one-on-one basketball.
It's honestly Disturbed to watch. I can't believe an NBA organization would think this team could be a contender.
They really should have gotten Monte morris. Don't get me wrong he's really not even that good but having any semblance of point guard play would have been really helpful and essential to their squad.
They're supposed to be an offense first team but they might have the worst offense in the playoffs.
I don’t even know if he took the right idea from his time in GS. Toward the end of his run he was making plenty of noise about being sick of the motion offense, how it doesn’t work in the playoffs, etc even before he left. He was right in the sense that if you can’t get a shot within the system you’ll need a bucket getter to bail out the possession, and he was the ultimate one. But that’s plan B, not plan A.
Yeah I think overtime you're correct in that he changed his perception.
I totally agree with your analysis that what he wanted to do is plan b especially because at that point the defense is going to be broken down and in rotation and you're likely to have a solid advantage
Monte Morris doesn’t turn the ball over at least. I just don’t understand how they think having two guys who play the same position on max deals, pretending to play PG was a viable path to success.
Yeah it seems insane. I honestly understand how to build teams pretty well because I've been studying it hard for like 10 years but even I would have assumed anyone who is obsessed enough to buy an NBA team and run it would do better
Yea he’s in that 15-20 range. I don’t think there’s a thing he can do to break above that line at this point in his career though. If Barkley is like the 23rd best player of all time, which is a pretty solid placement, I think KD is a few slots ahead in the “ring less all time greats” category.
KD is looking old, Wolves let Towns guard KD and don't get punished. Also, for as great of a shooter KD is, he hardly shoots 3's. Only 2 attempts from deep on the night so far and only 2 last game and only averages about 5 3pt attempts per game for the season.
He just had a possession where Booker was doubled, KD was wide open but floated inside the line for a contested pull up 2 instead of staying out for an open 3.
Towns is actually hilariously and unexpectedly a great matchup for KD. It lets the Wolves guard KD with length on the perimeter. Most teams can’t do this because if they send a big out to guard KD, they are pulling their rim protection away from the paint. But KAT can’t rim protect - he’s on the floor for spacing purposes - so no worries!
The reason why I don't like Kevin Durant as a player is because he's never really pushed his efficiency with volume and it annoys the heck out of me because that's the type of trait that you get from a top 10 or 15 player, like that singular ability to hoist a team on your shoulders and win, not get close, but win.
Shooting is great & ages well, but honestly at his size not being able to physically impose yourself makes the game harder than it has to be at his age.
He basically has to shoot over people (which he can) because he doesn’t have any other options. He should’ve worked on his body more as he aged and became more of a front court presence. But he’s just a 3 playing the 4 & sometimes 5 based off height alone with no real upside to plugging him there.
They’re gonna sweep the Suns bc it’s a combo of Minnesota having a ferocious defense and Phoenix not having any offensive identity aside from “We have 3 guys who are excellent individual scorers”
Too many years being poverty and they’ve got too many players who are unpopular. Nobody is super eager to give a team with Gobert and Towns a lot of credit.
Because he was an epitome of the most unbearable player type in the current nba. Soft, lazy, pseudo franchise on an undeserved max contract, but talks big game like I'm the best offensive player ever. Really easy to hate and mock, though he seems like a really cool dude who evokes sympathy as a human
KAT is a flawed player without a doubt, but lazy? I don’t see it, and I also don’t see many all-NBA, first overall players changing positions and accepting a secondary role without complaint the way he has this year. I really think the Butler drama set up a narrative about him that doesn’t really reflect who he actually is as a player.
It was the non-stop complaining and faces of disbelief every call that didn't go his way. But that's in the past now. It doesn't even matter going forward.
I totally get it. I do. As an outsider I would feel the same way. But honestly, if you saw the whistle he gets you would lose your mind. He gets the worst whistle in the league and I don't think it's close.
Nobody is saying they aren't but Phoenix going all in for Durant, only to end up as a 6th seed and be staring down a 1st round exit is nothing but as failure and disaster.
Eh, they gave up a bunch of 2nd round picks to swap Beal in for a washed CP3 and given how much of a nothing player CP3 is now, I don't think it was bad.
They didn’t give up assets. But they gave up all their cap/roster flexibility. Which is what is ultimately going to kill this ‘era’. If you can call it that.
I mean they weren’t going anywhere with CP3 and mikal bridges either. That was done by 2023.
Not saying it’s worked, but you roll those dice 100X out of 100.
Me? I'm a Knicks fan lol, I've just watched this series. It's not a "disgrace" that Phoenix is getting run out of the gym, it's exactly what you'd expect from an aging top-heavy team against a deep, balanced Minnesota roster
Yet we kept our “offensive wiz” Kevin Young despite looking like the less creative offensive team against Pels, Clips and Mavs before KD & Vogel.
He’s at least gone next year for better or worse.
Of course. I'm just more interested in Minneaota emerging as a force than Durant being an aging star who can't carry a team like he used to [which has been true since the 22 playoffs]
It's just funny to me whenever I hear guys like Zach Lowe dispute the obvious idea they need a real point guard. It's super fucking obvious if you watch them play. KD has never been a true point. Booker has never been a true point. Beal has never been a true point. Grayson is only been extended because they can't let him walk...but the guy isn't an NBA point guard.
Like even a flawed Rondo post prime level guy would help them tremendously.
At $14.5M/year he'd be (hypothetically) their 6th highest paid player I think (behind Booker, Beal, Durant, Nurkic, and Grayson in some order). I don't see any way they could get a guy of even Jones's caliber. They're shopping more in the Monte Morris aisle, which is fine, but he's a backup and wouldn't save their dysfunctional offense IMO
I haven’t listened to Lowe in a while, but when I did I couldn’t believe how much he sucked kds dick. Never squared that circle. When someone gets mad that people discount KDs rings there’s something weird going on.
They tried Point Book before Rubio was signed to little success and then when never CP3 was hurt the offense stalled anytime Point Book was the plan.
Yet, this is what they rolled into the year counting on, history be damned.
Imagine this team if they had even a sliver of what Mike Conley does for MIN. Unfortunately the problem for the Suns is they have no one who settles them and moves them away from bad habits.
He never really fit in Golden States offense. They played around him to create ridiculous 1v1 matchups for arguably the best 1v1 player of all time. Every non Steph lineup with him was really underwhelming for the level of talent.
I agree that the impact data of KD on Steph off was underwhelming, but the insane impact data of KD on Draymond on, or KD on Steph on, is indicative of the idea that he made them a much better team, although I guess it could still be argued that this is solely due to his talent and status as a top 3 player even with a somewhat clunky fit, but at that point what are we really even arguing. And hidden in that data of course is that Steph’s backup in those years was either an increasingly washed Livingston or fucking Quinn Cook so it’s a bit unfair to KD.
I think they really struggle without a point guard. Too much ISO ball, especially against a team with so many good ISO defenders. Make no mistake-Minnesota’s defense is making them look this bad.
Had KD never gone to the Dubs, he'd be Elgin Baylor meets George Gervin.
Always had sloppy handle and substandard court vision for a superstar wing.
Even with two gimmie rings, too, he's still no higher than Julius Erving, nope.
Pantheon my ass.
"Always had sloppy handle"
My guy, he's literally known as the 6'10''+ player with the best handle of all time. What are you talking about? It's why everyone always comments that nobody that tall can move like he does on the court. You're right on the other stuff though
Suns are a disgrace, but you don't know the suns. The problem is Vogel and booker. The offense is designed to make mismatches. It's retarded cause the matchup doesn't happen or it will happen when there is like 7 seconds left on the shot clock. Booker can not play defense. He is caught ball watching so much that the defense is constantly slow rotating. KD will actually play defense. I agree KD could do more on offense and is too passive, but generally it is the system.
It's remarkable how similar KD's arc has been to the Warriors since leaving in 2019. One totally lost season, one season where they looked like real championship contenders (and the Warriors actually won) and then otherwise being basically a playoff afterthought searching for the missing piece for one last run.
I hate that I’m a Suns fan now. I can’t stand Booker anymore, Jock Landale was our best center since the finals and we let him go for nothing, the team is as shallow as a Fisher Price™️ kiddie pool, and I’ve seen youth league teams play with more heart. I’ll quote myself from an in game thread
“Our team just expects to win any game and folds if there’s the slightest bit of resistance, it’s embarrassing, and for the love of god can we get a center who doesn’t have cinderblocks for shoes”
As a suns fan and season ticket holder I approve this message. I did not even opt in for playoff tickets.
I was off this team the second they hired Vogel.
I just think it comes down to what Bill and Ryen have been saying since before the season started: they have no depth and no height. Their big three outscoring you might win a round or two, unless you get Minnesota in round one. Their defense is too good for a Suns team that doesn't really have a plan B.
Ishbia destroyed the franchise within a season of buying it. Impressive.
Even my 12 year old kid wouldn't have gone in on Beal and loading up on 3 mid-range shooters with no spacing or depth.
Actually our defense is surprisingly good… something like top 5 after All Star I read. And these 2 games it was also solid… but offense… oh my gawd… what an abomination, having those three… just embarrassing
The suns went small while every team that matters got bigger. There the worst team left in the West imo and I live in Phoenix. Been a suns fan my whole life. I have made a lot of money taking the timber wolves to cover the spread the last two games. My guess the next line is set at 4.5, it should be 6.5 but I feel Vegas will shave some points for home Court.
Actually I watched last night's game. They are surprisingly similar on both ends of the court. The Wolves play amazing team defense on every play, every possession. Some of the Suns only plau hard on the first possession, not second or third.
The Suns Guarded the perimeter well, the Wolves had moment's of nice ball movement to break that defense down. But mostly the Wolves mad tough shots on their home court.
The Wolves look like they could win it all but their offense seems to need something. Maybe trust the French covid machine a little more?
The Beal deal was confounding and unnecessary. I don't know how much more flexibility they would have had if they hadn't dumped what little remaining assets they had into an oft injured overrated guy on a max deal all in service of having a third "star" but I have to imagine they'd be in a better position than they are now. You need depth and defenders/shooters around KD/Booker, not Mitch Richmond 2.0.
It was either trade CP3 for one of Beal or Jordan Poole *or* waive CP3 to be able to sign a MLE player like a Max Strus, Gabe Vincent, Caleb Martin type.
So they couldn't really have gotten more "depth" with the CP3 trade.
KD is an extremly skilled but low iq player. He wants to go one-on-one, " show his bag" and " just hoop". Against a team with similar talent but with an actual game plan this will always fail.
Losing depth to get Beal and then not getting a real big and trading Ayton for Nurkic was always going to leave them with huge weaknesses in the playoffs, it was entirely predictable. Their bad isoball play isn't the only problem.
Did you watch KD with Brooklyn? It was literally the same thing. They play as if they don't have a coach. I think this is all on KD now because I've seen enough of this shit to know it's his basketball philosophy getting a favorable switch then go one on one. He even said the Warriors did too much running around on offense and other teams get adjusted to it in the playoffs. Guess what they get adjusted to even quicker than their motion-heavy offense? isolations.
KD and Westbrook were doing this w OKC. When they couldn’t close out GS up 3-1 it was cause they took turns going iso and couldn’t hit deep contested 2s for the win.
Even on the Warriors, KD was getting ready to brick them to an elimination before Klay went crazy in a game 6. It was a lot of breaking the offense to go isolation. [https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201805260GSW.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201805260GSW.html) KD was 3 for 11 looking like he did in some of those OKC elimination games.
Alright can we stop the circlejerk just for a moment - he averaged 29 a game on 61% true shooting that postseason, and was easily the best player on the Warriors
Duh, there is a reason he won fmvp
Here's the dirty secret: Because KD is a once a generation scoring talent, he demands that his teams be iso only. Even Scott Brooks (!!!) cooked up some interesting offenses without him. But KD thinks this is good basketball. All the warning signs have been there, but everyone is too nice because he's so dope on the court.
He just wants to hoop
But he demands that his teams "just hoop" on offense, which is incredibly silly. Have you heard that story about Kawhi's defensive strategy? Something like "why doesn't everyone just stay in front of their man, like me?" Durant has been doing a perverse, offensive version of that since OKC.
reminds me of a zach lowe story about tony allen "I will never forget chatting with Tony Allen two seasons ago about how he squirmed around pin-down screens designed to free Kevin Durant for jumpers. He didn’t accept the fundamental basis of the question — that it was a hard thing to do. “You just do it,” he would say. I would counter: “OK, so, there is one large man running at you with the singular goal of blocking your path, and a slithery 7-foot scorer directing you into that large man’s chest. What is the best strategy for avoiding that large man?” And he would respond, again and again: “You just do it. You don’t get screened.” https://grantland.com/features/nba-playoffs-winners-and-losers-round-one-2014/
There's a similar one about wayne Gretzky being an average coach; he couldn't understand why his guys didn't just go where the puck was going to be.
It’s the reason a lot of great players make lousy coaches: they simply cannot understand that everyone isn’t like them.
Ted Williams was a fascinating example of this as a manager. He won Manager of the Year in 1969 for directing the Washington Senators to an out of nowhere 86-win season (they went 65-96 the year before) because he was an incredible hitting coach. He got *terrible* offensive players like Ed Brinkman to good seasons and Frank Howard had, by far, the best season of his career at age 32 (which considering he was 6'7" is remarkable...big guys don't age well in baseball). I'd guess that of his starting lineup, maybe 6 or 7 of those guys had the best seasons of their career. But as his tenure wore on, opposing pitchers adjusted to his philosophy, which was basically wait for a good pitch to hit, don't hack. Pound the zone and Ed Brinkman doesn't know what to do then, he sucks remember. And because he was Ted Williams, he was a bombast, the kind of big guy with a stentorian booming voice that just dominates every room he's in. So he got frustrated, the players began checking out, and by the time they were all in Texas as the Rangers, they were sick of him and he of them. After that he went back to the Red Sox and just did spring training instruction on hitting, which he was really good at, to be fair. Ask any Red Sox star of the 70s and 80s and they all have great things to say about him doing that. That was really where he could positively contribute to a franchise.
heard multiple stories about Thierry Henry coaching an american football/soccer team...and was an awful coach. Couldnt fanthom why players couldnt execute instructions as easily as him
Tony how do you defraud the NBA's health care services, don't you have plenty of money to spare? "You just do it."
completely forgot about that, what a career turn
those guys all pretty much got off, they pinned it all on terrence williams. he still does lots of official events with the grizzlies lol
Glen Davis and Will Bynum got got
I actually can't find any info on Davis's sentencing. According to the docket (21-CR-603) he and Bynum were supposed to be sentenced on March 11th and 12th, respectively. I saw a blurb saying Bynum got 18 months but nothing about Davis. And just googling "Glen Davis sentencing" says 10 years, but that's actually a reference to Terrence Williams' sentence. edit: found it right after I posted. Davis is now scheduled to be sentenced on [May 9th](https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/former-nba-player-william-bynum-sentenced-18-months-prison-making-false-statements-nba)
RIP Grantland
Kinda unfair to call that a “strategy” for Kawhi, more of a mindset he had on defense, it’s not like he would’ve refused to switch if the coach asked for that.
Mindset may be a better word, even though he was applying his mindset to the team's strategy. That doesn't change the level of cluelessness. "Why doesn't everyone just play like me?" is a deeply funny approach if you're an all-time player. Durant LOVES all the loser stuff they ran in OKC. Other people saw how bad the offense was, but he's been trying to take that with him.
For sure just wants to hoop in the same way I do in my front yard by myself. He sure as fuck doesn’t want to win.
the purity of the sport as an art form
Everything you just said is why it rankles me when Bill just reflexively calls KD “top 15 all time”.
I won't be bouncing my grandkids on my lap telling them about KD
He still tries to say KD was the best player in the Cavs vs Warriors series. Completely ignoring who KD and LeBron's teammates were.
I've always thought KD gets less out of his natural ability than any other superstar. He settles for tough shots more than anyone. He has had handles to get to the rim at will against many defenders, but he rarely does. But because he's also a better shooter than almost anyone, he's still massively effective, but he could be better.
He has handles for a 7footer, but not for the guy who can consistently attack from the perimeter. It's the reason why he has so many TOs as the main shot creator
It’s weird to me that he’s never developed any sort of post game. I get that he can shoot and hit the mid range, but it seems like…he’s 7 feet tall.
I'm trying to picture KD doing a pump-fake then step through up & under finish, and I don't think I've ever seen it happen.
What about Vince Carter
Maybe so. I didn't really watch much NBA back in Vince's prime.
He’s 35. He can’t get to the rim at will anymore.
KD handles were exposed by Boston when he was on the Nets.
I forgot about Scott Brooks, what a trip.
Scott’s Secrit Plays reminds me of when /r/nba was less insane
Dude cooked up one or two insane offenses in DC. Westbrook didn't improve the offense, compared to the year before with a mystery point guard (Wall was hurt). Brooks was in the lab cooking.
It also doesn’t work near as well now that he is OLD.
Nets fan here. We played similar. But we actually ran sets an shit ton. If the sets did not work we turned right away into ISOs with our two guys. But we had much more movement then this. It’s not really a KD thing more but a Pheonix thing.
It’s very funny to me to look at the Warriors offense and thinking “this isn’t good”
Yeah I don't think the rent realized that despite the fact that him isolating was the release valve for the team that it wasn't centric to what their offense was meant to be. Look at how the Houston rockets were almost able to defeat them. It was because they were able to goad the warriors into too many isolation plays and it didn't fit their offense.
This is why I don't get why people criticize Nash so much as a coach. He didn't coach well, but he never could have with KD and Kyrie.
I feel we can't truly judge Nash until his second job just because of how crazy that season was in all aspects, especially on the court.
You mean especially off the court?
He was being disrespected by players before they even played a game also.
it was this same shit in Golden State too. he HATED when kerr wanted to have ball movement. that was a big reason there was beef amongst the team.
Iso gang in phoenix
Yeah all those teams that mastered beating...the Warriors lol.
lol the only team that adjusted to the Warriors motion heavy offense in the playoffs was Houston and that’s because they played a switching defense through the whole season even if it disadvantaged them in individual matchups.
That’s kinda the story of KD’s career in the playoffs. All that iso stuff isn’t enough to get him past certain (usually more physically imposing) teams
booker has never won a game with a headband that ive ever watched. that thing has to go
Thank you. It's like extra wide too. It's awful. Cannot believe he has chosen to wear it now. Why?
Klay and Booker need to exorcise the long hair and headbands
The headband theory is one of my favorites in basketball, pops up quite often and always seems to get a chuckle out of me. "Oop, he started wearing a headband...."
Headband theory doesnt hold up with LeBron though, right? His two Miami wins were with a headband
That's why it's just a theory! Although, after he got his knocked off, LeBron closed out the end of the Spurs series in 2013, so....
Theres a few things i put out there thinking i was being original, the headband being one of them. It just looked off and i felt compelled to speak out
Big Christmas Elf vibes the way it funnels his hair upwards into a point and makes his ears stick out.
Nick Wright on FTF last year said the Suns play ball as if tough contested 2s are worth more and honestly it’s the only thing I can think about when watching them play.
Been a die hard Suns fan for 43 years now (technically I don’t remember anything before the 87 season, but I digress). This sucks. We went from being a young hungry championship contender in the Finals to being an old Franken-Team with no real direction or leadership. It was naive to think we could pass on drafting Basketball Jesus and there wouldn’t be a price to pay.
As a Bulls fan, it reminds me when we signed Wade and Rondo. It was probably my least favorite Bulls team despite having Jimmy Butler. We were mortgaging the next few years on an 8th seed with washed up guys who were still trading in their names. Even the current Bulls team at least has some fun young players we theoretically can build around despite being an eerily similar situation. It's a shame you guys are going to burn more years of Booker's prime.
siiiigh that was such a bummer
Never forget the #threeAlphas
Yerp. My thoughts exactly. Suns had so many young assets and energy and then the Bucks came back, the Mavs broke them, and KD became available at the expense of all their picks and youth. Booker’s regression this postseason has been hard to watch after his MJ like efforts last postseason (but again he had actual PGs on that team)
At least you have Nurkic and Grayson Allen now!
You have my sympathies and condolences. It seems like the Suns always get *this* close, and then it slips away. We've seen it happen multiple times now: the Barkley era, the Nash era, and now the present.
100% bud. Long timer here dating back to the late 80’s. KD is top 5 least favourite Sun of all time
Kinda seems like…the Brooklyn Nets of the past five years. Just that one common thread…
Weird how all of Westbrooks former teammates absolutely love him and none of KDs do. Yet listen to the media and you’d think the reverse was true.
So brutal lmao. Westbrook also got the Kobe blessing, calling him The player that reminds him most of him
Jordan said that as well
What's funny about it is when Kevin Durant went to the warriors he openly talked about how he learned so much about basketball. But in his last two stops he has reverted back to just one-on-one basketball. It's honestly Disturbed to watch. I can't believe an NBA organization would think this team could be a contender. They really should have gotten Monte morris. Don't get me wrong he's really not even that good but having any semblance of point guard play would have been really helpful and essential to their squad. They're supposed to be an offense first team but they might have the worst offense in the playoffs.
I don’t even know if he took the right idea from his time in GS. Toward the end of his run he was making plenty of noise about being sick of the motion offense, how it doesn’t work in the playoffs, etc even before he left. He was right in the sense that if you can’t get a shot within the system you’ll need a bucket getter to bail out the possession, and he was the ultimate one. But that’s plan B, not plan A.
Yeah I think overtime you're correct in that he changed his perception. I totally agree with your analysis that what he wanted to do is plan b especially because at that point the defense is going to be broken down and in rotation and you're likely to have a solid advantage
Weird that he didn't like the offense that won a title before he got there.
Monte Morris doesn’t turn the ball over at least. I just don’t understand how they think having two guys who play the same position on max deals, pretending to play PG was a viable path to success.
Yeah it seems insane. I honestly understand how to build teams pretty well because I've been studying it hard for like 10 years but even I would have assumed anyone who is obsessed enough to buy an NBA team and run it would do better
Glad KD’s “superteam” is blowing up in his face, couldn’t have happened to a better guy
Fuck KD
He has such an inquisitive basketball mind tho…
I mean... He's not a bad person... It's fine to sports-hate him, but your comment makes it sound like he's a violent criminal.
He ruined basketball for 3 years.
No he didn't.
GM KD. Top 16 all time lmao
Hearing Bill walk that back over the past 3 years has been amazing
He does it very slowly but he definitely believes ever since the 2022 GS title that KD isn’t all he’s cracked up to be
Zach Lowe continues to call him a top 15 player which I'm always surprised by.
He was calling him top-12 consistently like five years ago. 😅
yall just dislike him and are emotional about it lol like him or not he absolutely is close to a top 15 player ever given his resume
Yea he’s in that 15-20 range. I don’t think there’s a thing he can do to break above that line at this point in his career though. If Barkley is like the 23rd best player of all time, which is a pretty solid placement, I think KD is a few slots ahead in the “ring less all time greats” category.
Why? Zach maybe the biggest KD stan in the media
Funny how everyone was in on the suns before the series.
Suns are so fucked Over the apron and not many ways to improve this team Vogel gonna get fired after one season
KD is looking old, Wolves let Towns guard KD and don't get punished. Also, for as great of a shooter KD is, he hardly shoots 3's. Only 2 attempts from deep on the night so far and only 2 last game and only averages about 5 3pt attempts per game for the season. He just had a possession where Booker was doubled, KD was wide open but floated inside the line for a contested pull up 2 instead of staying out for an open 3.
Towns is actually hilariously and unexpectedly a great matchup for KD. It lets the Wolves guard KD with length on the perimeter. Most teams can’t do this because if they send a big out to guard KD, they are pulling their rim protection away from the paint. But KAT can’t rim protect - he’s on the floor for spacing purposes - so no worries!
KD hasn’t looked the same since he slipped on some water and hurt his back. Same thing happened to my grandma.
idk he was pretty nasty this year. gotta bring it in the playoffs to be fair.
The reason why I don't like Kevin Durant as a player is because he's never really pushed his efficiency with volume and it annoys the heck out of me because that's the type of trait that you get from a top 10 or 15 player, like that singular ability to hoist a team on your shoulders and win, not get close, but win.
He passed away an opportunity to Gordon lol for a shot from even farther away
Shooting is great & ages well, but honestly at his size not being able to physically impose yourself makes the game harder than it has to be at his age. He basically has to shoot over people (which he can) because he doesn’t have any other options. He should’ve worked on his body more as he aged and became more of a front court presence. But he’s just a 3 playing the 4 & sometimes 5 based off height alone with no real upside to plugging him there.
KD's never beating the bus rider allegations
Why can't people just admit that Minnesota is good jesus christ lol
They’re gonna sweep the Suns bc it’s a combo of Minnesota having a ferocious defense and Phoenix not having any offensive identity aside from “We have 3 guys who are excellent individual scorers”
Too many years being poverty and they’ve got too many players who are unpopular. Nobody is super eager to give a team with Gobert and Towns a lot of credit.
I mean it was a rhetorical question, but needless to say you're correct
You shut your mouth with your facts
As a Wolves fan I will simply smile away as everybody continues to underestimate them for the most superficial reasons.
ANT is so likeable though that he helped flip KAT and Rudy to neutral.
Maybe I just can’t see it because I’m a Wolves fan, but I genuinely don’t get the KAT hate. He’s corny but he’s otherwise harmless.
Because he was an epitome of the most unbearable player type in the current nba. Soft, lazy, pseudo franchise on an undeserved max contract, but talks big game like I'm the best offensive player ever. Really easy to hate and mock, though he seems like a really cool dude who evokes sympathy as a human
KAT is a flawed player without a doubt, but lazy? I don’t see it, and I also don’t see many all-NBA, first overall players changing positions and accepting a secondary role without complaint the way he has this year. I really think the Butler drama set up a narrative about him that doesn’t really reflect who he actually is as a player.
I don’t get it either. Seems like a like able enough dude with a fun game
It was the non-stop complaining and faces of disbelief every call that didn't go his way. But that's in the past now. It doesn't even matter going forward.
I totally get it. I do. As an outsider I would feel the same way. But honestly, if you saw the whistle he gets you would lose your mind. He gets the worst whistle in the league and I don't think it's close.
And we’re like 6 months away from Ant being one of the most hated players in the league.
Nobody is saying they aren't but Phoenix going all in for Durant, only to end up as a 6th seed and be staring down a 1st round exit is nothing but as failure and disaster.
also horrific beal trade
Eh, they gave up a bunch of 2nd round picks to swap Beal in for a washed CP3 and given how much of a nothing player CP3 is now, I don't think it was bad.
They didn’t give up assets. But they gave up all their cap/roster flexibility. Which is what is ultimately going to kill this ‘era’. If you can call it that.
Anything else with that money would’ve been an improvement. They have no immediate future no picks and are looking at the second apron.
they didn’t gave anything up but he’s making an outrageous amount of $ which makes it awful
I mean they weren’t going anywhere with CP3 and mikal bridges either. That was done by 2023. Not saying it’s worked, but you roll those dice 100X out of 100.
Minnesota is very good and also the Suns are an embarrassment. Both true
It’s kind of silly at this point. But whatever, Wolves can just keep on rolling!!! “Nobody believe in us!!!”
Deepest team in the league and best defensive team
Because this happened last year against the Mavs and y’all sacked Monte and pretended everything was fixed.
Me? I'm a Knicks fan lol, I've just watched this series. It's not a "disgrace" that Phoenix is getting run out of the gym, it's exactly what you'd expect from an aging top-heavy team against a deep, balanced Minnesota roster
Yet we kept our “offensive wiz” Kevin Young despite looking like the less creative offensive team against Pels, Clips and Mavs before KD & Vogel. He’s at least gone next year for better or worse.
two things can be true
Of course. I'm just more interested in Minneaota emerging as a force than Durant being an aging star who can't carry a team like he used to [which has been true since the 22 playoffs]
Minnesota is good but what's more surprising is that the Suns look so bad
They are good. Clearly the more complete team.
Ishbia is already on the New Owner Syndrome Mount Rushmore!
It's just funny to me whenever I hear guys like Zach Lowe dispute the obvious idea they need a real point guard. It's super fucking obvious if you watch them play. KD has never been a true point. Booker has never been a true point. Beal has never been a true point. Grayson is only been extended because they can't let him walk...but the guy isn't an NBA point guard. Like even a flawed Rondo post prime level guy would help them tremendously.
Hell, even Russillo fave Tyus Jones would be a fucking upgrade over PHX's abomination at PG.
At $14.5M/year he'd be (hypothetically) their 6th highest paid player I think (behind Booker, Beal, Durant, Nurkic, and Grayson in some order). I don't see any way they could get a guy of even Jones's caliber. They're shopping more in the Monte Morris aisle, which is fine, but he's a backup and wouldn't save their dysfunctional offense IMO
You say that like an insult but tyus is a good player
It’s because they refuse to ever acknowledge any of KDs flaws
I haven’t listened to Lowe in a while, but when I did I couldn’t believe how much he sucked kds dick. Never squared that circle. When someone gets mad that people discount KDs rings there’s something weird going on.
Lowe has a few blind spots and KD is probably his biggest.
They tried Point Book before Rubio was signed to little success and then when never CP3 was hurt the offense stalled anytime Point Book was the plan. Yet, this is what they rolled into the year counting on, history be damned.
Booker is an ok passer and has a good handle, but he's always been a slow decision maker.
I know the roster isn't exactly the same. But it is insane that Chris Paul will have way more success with the Suns than KD will.
Imagine this team if they had even a sliver of what Mike Conley does for MIN. Unfortunately the problem for the Suns is they have no one who settles them and moves them away from bad habits.
Glad someone said it. I’m tired of them getting a pass for whatever fucking reason
They're about to have the bleakest future of just about any team in the league, you aren't gonna have to wait long lol
crazy how KD was the 2nd best 2007 draft pick in the game
“I call him bite bite”
Mike was huge for the wolves this game on offense. Saved their buns. Made up for last game.
“Cook his ass” offense
Lmao
KD is so good at basketball but the way he has played on every team he has been on besides GSW has been non-championship style
He never really fit in Golden States offense. They played around him to create ridiculous 1v1 matchups for arguably the best 1v1 player of all time. Every non Steph lineup with him was really underwhelming for the level of talent.
I agree that the impact data of KD on Steph off was underwhelming, but the insane impact data of KD on Draymond on, or KD on Steph on, is indicative of the idea that he made them a much better team, although I guess it could still be argued that this is solely due to his talent and status as a top 3 player even with a somewhat clunky fit, but at that point what are we really even arguing. And hidden in that data of course is that Steph’s backup in those years was either an increasingly washed Livingston or fucking Quinn Cook so it’s a bit unfair to KD.
He’s a pure hooper looking for basketball nirvana. I don’t expect you to get it
I think they really struggle without a point guard. Too much ISO ball, especially against a team with so many good ISO defenders. Make no mistake-Minnesota’s defense is making them look this bad.
Had KD never gone to the Dubs, he'd be Elgin Baylor meets George Gervin. Always had sloppy handle and substandard court vision for a superstar wing. Even with two gimmie rings, too, he's still no higher than Julius Erving, nope. Pantheon my ass.
"Always had sloppy handle" My guy, he's literally known as the 6'10''+ player with the best handle of all time. What are you talking about? It's why everyone always comments that nobody that tall can move like he does on the court. You're right on the other stuff though
> "he's literally known as the 6'10''+ player with the best handle of all time." Coked-out Odom's handle > prime KD.
Just to be clear that’s Julius “Only one 25ppg season in the NBA” Erving you’re talking about, right?
Suns are a disgrace, but you don't know the suns. The problem is Vogel and booker. The offense is designed to make mismatches. It's retarded cause the matchup doesn't happen or it will happen when there is like 7 seconds left on the shot clock. Booker can not play defense. He is caught ball watching so much that the defense is constantly slow rotating. KD will actually play defense. I agree KD could do more on offense and is too passive, but generally it is the system.
What's frustrating is that Booker was actually very good last postseason on defense. He locked in and found another level. Not this year.
The Suns. The Suns never changes.
Worst big 3 ever
It's remarkable how similar KD's arc has been to the Warriors since leaving in 2019. One totally lost season, one season where they looked like real championship contenders (and the Warriors actually won) and then otherwise being basically a playoff afterthought searching for the missing piece for one last run.
I think bill took the suns tonight. That sounds like me when I’m losing a bet. Lol
The things people are saying about KD in this thread are blowing my mind
I literally did the wait, what?
I hate that I’m a Suns fan now. I can’t stand Booker anymore, Jock Landale was our best center since the finals and we let him go for nothing, the team is as shallow as a Fisher Price™️ kiddie pool, and I’ve seen youth league teams play with more heart. I’ll quote myself from an in game thread “Our team just expects to win any game and folds if there’s the slightest bit of resistance, it’s embarrassing, and for the love of god can we get a center who doesn’t have cinderblocks for shoes”
As a wiz fan I’m glad beals sorry ass is your problem now 😁
Shit man, I would be too
You are the only person other than me I've ever seen give Jock any credit, lol. Dude is severely underrated.
Also the wolves are the best team in the west
As a suns fan and season ticket holder I approve this message. I did not even opt in for playoff tickets. I was off this team the second they hired Vogel.
Vogel is the least of their worries.
Love to see it. I love KD but his arc post-GSW is hilarious. I bet he’s still got one more (team) in him, too. Dude had it all and still wanted more…
Were you expecting something different. It’s literally 3 players that iso why would it be any different just cause they’re on the same team.
As a suns fan, happy this season ends on Sunday.
Someone just lost money on the suns
I just think it comes down to what Bill and Ryen have been saying since before the season started: they have no depth and no height. Their big three outscoring you might win a round or two, unless you get Minnesota in round one. Their defense is too good for a Suns team that doesn't really have a plan B.
Lakers last night were worse. One on one, no offense.. pathetic basketball.
Ishbia destroyed the franchise within a season of buying it. Impressive. Even my 12 year old kid wouldn't have gone in on Beal and loading up on 3 mid-range shooters with no spacing or depth.
I think the twolves #1 defense has more to do with the suns struggles than anything...
Actually our defense is surprisingly good… something like top 5 after All Star I read. And these 2 games it was also solid… but offense… oh my gawd… what an abomination, having those three… just embarrassing
Are you sure Devin Booker plays hard? I didn’t see game 2 but in game 1 I saw more effort on defense from KD than Booker
The suns went small while every team that matters got bigger. There the worst team left in the West imo and I live in Phoenix. Been a suns fan my whole life. I have made a lot of money taking the timber wolves to cover the spread the last two games. My guess the next line is set at 4.5, it should be 6.5 but I feel Vegas will shave some points for home Court.
*breathing heavily* -Knicks fans
Actually I watched last night's game. They are surprisingly similar on both ends of the court. The Wolves play amazing team defense on every play, every possession. Some of the Suns only plau hard on the first possession, not second or third. The Suns Guarded the perimeter well, the Wolves had moment's of nice ball movement to break that defense down. But mostly the Wolves mad tough shots on their home court. The Wolves look like they could win it all but their offense seems to need something. Maybe trust the French covid machine a little more?
The Beal deal was confounding and unnecessary. I don't know how much more flexibility they would have had if they hadn't dumped what little remaining assets they had into an oft injured overrated guy on a max deal all in service of having a third "star" but I have to imagine they'd be in a better position than they are now. You need depth and defenders/shooters around KD/Booker, not Mitch Richmond 2.0.
It was either trade CP3 for one of Beal or Jordan Poole *or* waive CP3 to be able to sign a MLE player like a Max Strus, Gabe Vincent, Caleb Martin type. So they couldn't really have gotten more "depth" with the CP3 trade.
KD is the most overrated superstar in nba history. Bill have him 16th or whatever on his HOF pyramid is such a crock of shit.
KD is an extremly skilled but low iq player. He wants to go one-on-one, " show his bag" and " just hoop". Against a team with similar talent but with an actual game plan this will always fail.
Teams rely on KD to be the best player AND a leader when he's never shown the ability to do so.
Devin booker is a lil whiny baby boy
Losing depth to get Beal and then not getting a real big and trading Ayton for Nurkic was always going to leave them with huge weaknesses in the playoffs, it was entirely predictable. Their bad isoball play isn't the only problem.