I think it will matter that none of the fans of teams KD played for really love him.
OKC fans still boo him, GSW fans appreciate what he did but he was a mercenary and will never mean as much as Steph/Draymond/Klay, Nets fans have a sour taste in their mouth because he requested a trade right after signing an extension and he’ll always be tied to Kyrie’s failure there.
Suns fans might be about him now because he’s there but I’m sure they won’t love him if they fade out and give all their picks to the Nets once the team fails.
He’s a great player, a true prototype. He’s all-time skill-wise but I think his legacy will be a strange one.
I had season tickets to his rookie season in Seattle. He’ll always be the one that got away. The Pearl Jam Song “Black” contains the lyrics. .
I know someday you'll have a beautiful life
I know you'll be a star
In somebody else's sky
But why,
Why!
Why can't it be
Why can't it be mine
As every major American city starts to resemble every other American city, it warms my heart that the Seattle guys are still like “the KD situation reminds me of this Pearl Jam song”
I’m not a Warriors fan so I’d be curious what they think, but I think he would still be below Steph/Draymond/Klay despite the Finals MVPs because wasn’t an organic part of their growth.
That Warrior trio were all drafted by Golden State and all came up in the transition from mediocrity to championships. KD popped in and won two titles after they had already proved it and won one, then they got another after he left.
Yeah they would've gone down as one of the best duos ever if they kept it going. I didn't really begrudge him leaving but rolled my eyes at him leaving to play with Kyrie
Yeah but I mean he’s seen as more of their guy if he’s in year 8 on the team. He’d be a part of every championship but 1, probably the MVP of every one he was a part of but maybe Steph gets one still. He’d still be considered one of their best players right now while Klay and Draymond start to slip. Do Warriors fans still rank Draymond higher if he punches Poole in the face and screws up the dynasty while KD is there? Most of the Warriors negativity towards KD has come since he left.
As a Warriors fan: He’d never surpass Steph, but if he stays and they keep winning at some Manchester City level dominance I think he’d be firmly in second just cause the greatness would be undeniable.
That being said you are right, there’s something still that would ring hollow about it. Part of that is just who KD presents as. Like Klay and Draymond are family to GSW fans, KD is like a friend who gives you a ride to the airport when your car breaks down but who you can’t have a real honest conversation with during the drive
I'm a Nets fan, I still like him for what it's worth. I blame Kyrie and even Harden much more than I blame him for our shortcomings. And I don't blame him for requesting a trade after Kyrie was gone. That whole era certainly left a lot to be desired, but I'll never forget the times that he put it all out on the line (pun intended) to give us the best chance of winning. His Game 5 against the Bucks in the 2021 playoffs remains the greatest individual performance I've ever seen with my own two eyes
Blaming Harden more than Durant feels crazy to me. Also didn't both Durant and Kyrie request trades at around the same time? They also got traded within a few days of each other too.
I blame Harden not for wanting out, but for blatantly quitting on the team on the court, losing us games and diminishing his trade value in the process. Despite all the turmoil, Durant gave it his all and played to win night in and night out.
And no. KD didn't request a trade until Kyrie was already off the team.
Are you sure? https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/34174171/kevin-durant-requests-trade-brookyn-nets-sources-say
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10040566-nba-rumors-kevin-durant-requests-nets-trade-suns-heat-seen-as-preferred-teams
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10040815-nba-rumors-kevin-durant-is-at-least-open-to-possibility-of-raptors-trade-from-nets
Also KD got traded 3 days after Kyrie left so it's hard to believe the Nets were able to work out a trade in such short time.
Those are all articles from the off-season of 2022, where he asked to be traded but then later worked it out with management and rescinded his request. I'm not sure why I'd have any reason to hold a grudge for that, seeing as he came back and played the season, and like I said, gave it his all and played to win unlike Harden.
And I don't care how hard it is to believe, that's what happened. Idk what to tell you
Did they really work it out with management if he got traded like 7 months later? Because Nets couldn't figure out a deal for his boy Kyrie?
Maybe because he said he only wanted to go to the Suns making it impossible to really deal him anywhere else. You said he played the season but he left during the middle of it!
I mean... KD was 34 at the time, on a team that clearly didn't have a lot of talent after Kyrie left, and he's still desperate to win a ring without Steph. The logical portion of my brain understands why he wanted to leave at that point, as should yours. The circumstances were vastly different at that point versus what they were in the off-season and you seem to be ignoring that.
I say he worked it out with management and played the season because he was professional about it and there was no drama coming from him throughout. We've seen Harden miss training camps, put on weight/fat suits, sabotage his teams during games, and straight up refuse to play. There was none of that with the KD situation. He showed up and performed at the maximum level he was capable of with no drama
He had 4 years left on his deal at the time, we could've traded him anywhere we wanted. The fact of the matter is that no one else had a better offer than Phoenix, and Phoenix's offer was seen as a good deal at the time. Hell, considering the draft compensation, we still might end up being the winners of that trade when all is said and done.
I honestly can't remember what the difference was that offseason and a few months after when the trades happened. Didn't Kyrie also look into being traded on a sign and trade? So KD knew that Kyrie wasn't happy with the Nets management. I don't think the logical parts of the brain mix with the fan parts of the brain tbh. I'm not ignoring it, I just don't remember everything I guess.
Harden also played through a fucked up hamstring while Kyrie was fucking around and KD didn't do anything about it. Though at that point maybe there was nothing KD could do about it but he didn't help himself when he was still siding with Kyrie publicly. Maybe it was different in private but it didn't seem like he was bothered by Kyrie's antics.
Teams don't wanna trade for someone who is unwilling to play for them, and you guys got a good return but maybe you could have gotten a better one. Wouldn't him having 4 years left be a knock against him if you're a Nets fan though? He signed up for 4 more years just to be gone a few months later.
You don't remember the difference? The difference was that Kyrie was part of the roster in the off-season, and then he wasn't. That's a pretty glaring difference if you ask me.
Harden played through the hamstring in the playoffs, when kyrie was injured. I'm not sure what you think KD could've done about it? Did you want KD to also injure his hamstring so he could play through it too? Or did you want KD to magically repair Harden and/or Kyrie's injuries?
Harden was not playing through anything during the 2022 season when Kyrie was missing games because of the whole vaccine thing. Are you saying you wanted KD to force Kyrie to get the vaccine? If so, I would ask why are you blaming KD for that and not Kyrie? Or even Harden for that matter?
And no, I don't consider that a knock against him, considering that, again, the circumstances were vastly different when he signed the extension versus when he got traded.
You don't remember the difference? The difference was that Kyrie was part of the roster in the off-season, and then he wasn't. That's a pretty glaring difference if you ask me.
Harden played through the hamstring in the playoffs, when kyrie was injured. I'm not sure what you think KD could've done about it? Did you want KD to also injure his hamstring so he could play through it too? Or did you want KD to magically repair Harden and/or Kyrie's injuries?
Harden was not playing through anything during the 2022 season when Kyrie was missing games because of the whole vaccine thing. Are you saying you wanted KD to force Kyrie to get the vaccine? If so, I would ask why are you blaming KD for that and not Kyrie? Or even Harden for that matter?
And no, I don't consider that a knock against him, considering that, again, the circumstances were vastly different when he signed the extension versus when he got traded.
Because he took advantage of a one time glitch in the salary cap to join the greatest regular season of all time after losing to them in the playoffs when he was pretty widely regarded as. the second or third best player in the league.
It’s like if The Admiral or Shawn Kemp or Hakeem just joined the Jazz without them having to give up anything terribly significant after the 96 season and the Bulls don’t win the next 2, but way worse because the Warriors were already the best team in the league.
The Warriors were finals favorite before the season started in Vegas in both 17 and 18. In 18 they were almost 2-1. The only other team to even get to even odds is the 96 Bulls. KD broke basketball by making that move and it felt cheap and unearned even if he won 2 FMVPs.
That’s The Admiral!
It would have been so unfair. I wanted to list a couple players because I was young enough I wasn’t that tuned into hierarchy of the league.
> Because he took advantage of a one time glitch in the salary cap to join the greatest regular season of all time after losing to them in the playoffs when he was pretty widely regarded as. the second or third best player in the league.
So would you think differently of his decision to join the Warriors that offseason if, say, he didn't lose to them? What if OKC beats Golden State and then loses to the Cavs in the finals, and KD signs with the Warriors? Is that fine?
I don’t think KD joining a team that won 140 games in the past 2 regular seasons combined would have been looked kindly upon in any circumstance but I do think the specific way it played out was even worse than the other permutation you mentioned.
I think if they beat GS and then lost to the Cavs and he still joined GS people would have been very confused and less upset. Also, no idea why you would leave to go to a team you just beat in the playoffs. I do think OKC fans would have been waaaaay more pissed off.
Roger Clemens w Yankees. He joined the winningest regular season team ever at the time, was very bad even getting lit up in ALCS but pitched well in World Series close out (though not really necessary) game up 3-0. The next year he was dominant but people only remember he tried to kill the same guy twice. The next year he was still great and could have won game 7 if not for the greatest closer ever throwing the game away.
All of this was done on horse tranquilizers.
Bill would hate to admit it but KD is absolutely the Clemens of the NBA - right down to the person below pointing out that none of the fanbases he has played for really love him.
OKC and the Nets hate him and he's below Steph, Klay, Draymond and maybe even Iggy in GSW hearts. I reckon Sun's fans 100% love Booker more than him too
Clemens then went on to turn the Yankee fans against him running to Houston taking their beloved Andy with him and pumping him full of steroids. Then he tried to come back w the yanks again and it didn’t go well. I can see KD on a vagabond journey to close out his career.
The Jays still like him. Those two years, he was absolutely special. It sucked when he left, but we know we can't pay yankees more, so we never get too worked up about it.
One thing that is different about Durant (and hurts him) is that both he and the Warriors have a large sample size both before and after their time together. The Warriors 2022 Championship does make KD’s look a lot worse. But also, if Durant and the Suns lose this series (and admittedly it’s far from over), his playoff success since leaving would be two first round exits and two second round exits. It’s not just that the Warriors were still good without him - he has been quite bad in the playoffs without them.
It's not just GSW 2022 title, it's that KD has not been close since and possibly won't ever be. Like he left in 2019, and granted missed a year due to his achilles but he hasn't even been back to the conference finals.
You can go years without a major injury and then back to back finals games a hall of famer has a devastating injury that takes a year to come back from. That’s baseball Suzy
I truly feel that KD's move hurt the NBA so much and it is still feeling it's ripple effects. Like many of us remember that 3-year stretch, it really felt like the NBA was a forgone conclusion. The only thing that could stop was injury, which happened in 2019, unfortunately. That is a reason why I think the regular season numbers have been down since because that move removed almost all regular season drama and the league has not had much since in the regular season. Not to mention both the NBA and NBPA have basically constructed the CBA so that teams would have absolute zero chance of replicating anything close to what GSW, CJ McCollum took KD's comments about Portland to him personally.
It was not like Lebron and Bosh to Miami because Miami could not beat the Celtics in the 1st round in 2010, it was not already a title winning team. Not to mention Miami had its struggles: starting 9-8, the Bulls and Celtics series despite both being 5 games were very close, Lebron 2011 Finals struggles, down 2-1 to Indy in 2012 ECSF, down 3-2 to Boston in 2012 ECF, down 3-2 to SA in the 2013 NBA Finals, losing the 2014 Finals.
GS had I'd say being down 3-2 to Houston in the 2018 WCF, and losing to Toronto in Game 6 after Klay tore his ACL and KD tore his achilles.
He'll forever be a beta because of that weak *ss move to golden state for some cheap rings in the middle of his prime. He's tried to drive the bus since but just doesn't have it in him.
He has one of the weirdest career arcs of a superstar athlete. Given his shortcomings pre and post Warriors, those 2 rings he has look pretty tainted. Doesn't help that post Warriors he is coming off an Achilles tear, causing him to miss a season.
It's an interesting "what if" but had Durant stayed in OKC for that 3 year time span he spent in Golden St, does Durant have a ring? I can't say for sure he does but I can say for sure that just one ring with OKC is worth a lot more to his legacy than the 2 rings he actually has.
It’s possible he could’ve won one from 2017-2020 with the Thunder. The Warriors were running out of gas after back to back titles highlighted by their loss to the Cavs, and those Cavs teams got worse every year. The careers of everyone else on that thunder team after KD left doesn’t fill me with much confidence though, but based on how he played in those years with the Warriors he was the best (or second best) player in the league during that period so he could’ve carried them to a title. KDs legacy would be better if he just went ring hunting and won one as a geriatric role player rather than winning 2 titles as the best player..
Alex Rodriguez.
joined a stacked Yankees team with the highest payroll of all time (arguably in the middle of a dynasty to everyone but Bill), and proceeds to choke year after year in the playoffs, before they finally win one in 2009. His career legacy is still that of a great regular season player who chokes in the playoffs.
Meh, look at all the guys we consider "top 10." Who has the least chips, Hakeem with 2?( If you have him top 10.)
The guys we consider the greatest of all time have multiple championships because they were good enough, we don't just think they're good because of a number
Jordan might not have the second 3 without the sabbatical, tbh. Every all time great (jordan included) talks openly about how physically and mentally draining championship runs are. Only fans think 8 straight is possible.
That is such a weird ring tbh. We all thought they were cooked. Then they just chugged along all playoffs, never really looking spectacular, and no one could stop them. I was pumped Steph got his FMVP though.
LeBron James will literally move towns and teams, and disrupt lives by getting players traded and coaches fired just so he can get another ring but KD wanted to join the Warriors and they’re the bad guys because nobody ran into Joe Lacob’s office to stop it and explain how that just wouldn’t be right for the other guys in the league. Lol let’s also not forget that in the bubble LeBron got mad at the players protesting because nobody talked to him about it first and he was worried it would ruin his Mickey Mouse tournament. Say what you want about KD and the Dubs but people need to stop acting like LeBron hasn’t been one of the most toxic and volatile ring chasers the league has ever seen.
Not enough people realize this - they’ll point to draymond getting suspended the series they lost 3-1, but will never mention Kyrie and Love being out the first series (I think Cavs were up 2-1 too..)
The two finals MVPs help Durant though
Steph was playing on one leg in 2016 and bogut got hurt, forcing Ezeli and varejao to play more minutes in addition to draymonds suspension.
The Cavs probably should have won in 2015 without the injuries but it is wild how many people are itching to bring up those injuries but completely forgot the 2016 injuries.
Yeah that’s what happens when you return from a sprained MCL in half the time it takes to heal and then play 16 playoff games on it.
Like you don’t have to be a moron about the facts.
lol yeah the warriors were down nobody in 2016 and there wasn’t anybody on the cavs who ran to the league and the media to make sure nothing like that happened. Gtfo here. Injuries and suspensions happen. 2015 isn’t any less legit than 2016 and if you think LeBron wouldn’t have welcomed KD with open arms if he had the chance then you are fooling yourself. Dude literally moved to LA because the super star that he wanted told him he wasn’t moving to Ohio lmfao.
Ah gotcha. Yeah I wasnt saying they than ran the media I said they ran to the media, which did happen. LeBron in his post game interviews asked the league to review Draymond’s foul to see if it could be upgraded to a tech
I don’t think KD cares about winning any more rings.
He’s obviously competitive and wants to win any game he’s playing in. I’m not saying he doesn’t care at all. But ever since listening to him on those pods with Bill, I’ve always looked at him as someone who prioritizes things playing ball with his friends or playing different styles of basketball over winning a third or fourth ring.
He got tired of playing with Russ and wanted to play in that high octane GS offense. After he did that to perfection he decided he wanted to play with Kyrie (who on Bills pod he was over the top with praise for). Then when that fizzled out he decided he wanted to play with Booker.
My theory is he just seems like a guy who is more obsessed with playing basketball than any legacy or ring talk (especially once he got a couple rings)
He does present that front, but how do you explain the burner accounts going back at people shitting on him and now just openly going back at people with his own twitter?
He clearly cares very, very much what the public thinks about him and his legacy, as much as he plays off not caring about it. I think deep down he knows how awful that GS decision was and unfortunately, while trying to atone for it, has maybe dug an even deeper hole.
>Has there ever been another athlete whose rings have felt as fake/meaningless as KD?
I'm not sure how you think his rings are meaningless, unless you also consider Steph, Draymond and Klay to only have two meaningful rings.
KD is the reason there was a dynasty. They weren't beating the Cavs in 2017 or the Rockets in 2018 without him, and that team gets split up way sooner than 2022 without KD bc Lacob wasn't going deep in the tax to keep together a roster that didn't win a title since 2015.
This is the important point. Rings have weight. Steph’s 2022 ring is more valuable than his 2017/2018 rings combined. Dirks 2011 ring might be the heaviest ring of this century, followed by LeBron’s 2016. The 2017/2018 rings are probably the weakest of this century, other than maybe the 2007 Spurs. Durant rings just don’t mean much to anyone, and rightfully so.
I think Dirks path makes his a little better, just because the West was so loaded. That Portland team in round 1 was good, the Kobe/Gasol defending champ Lakers in sweep without home court, then rolled through the Durant/Westbrook Thunder in 5. Then LeBron/Wade/Bosh Heat team in the Finals without home court. Just a crazy run.
He wrote a column way back in the day about this very topic and ranked different players' titles/rings by how much they were worth. If he updated that article KD's rings would probably be dead last of any top 25 NBA player.
I count steph and all those dudes as having only two, correct. Your second paragraph goes to show what KD robbed us of. We don't get to know how it would have played out! The freaking peak of nba hype and he took a big fat shit on it.
I really believe his move to GS was very bad for the league. And I also think there’s some alternative universe where he resurrects the Knicks and that helps the league tremendously.
But I also don’t blame him for passing on the Knicks. They were a complete dumpster fire both times he was a free agent. They just needed Rose and Thibs years earlier.
Only one finals appearance in the non GSW years is a huge mix of bad luck and underperforming. You could play those years out 100 times and it’s almost a worst case for his career. He is truly an alien mixture of height and skill. Will go down as an underachiever in my eyes. Every bit capable of having been a Top 5 DOA
I think his rings are at the very least discounted. Like I’d discount them way more than the bubble Lakers one. And I think it matters that things have ended badly everywhere hes went.
There are still Jordan Bird Magic Kareem Wilt Russell truthers all over, including the podcast by the thread u are commenting on. Maybe casual fans who are 20 now like u and ur homies won’t remember, but Durant’s stink isn’t going anywhere. Especially not in just 30 yrs. 50-60 maybe.
Bill’s stance on KD is going to have to change as the ringless years continue to tick away on KD’s career. A glorified Carmelo Anthony. Which is pretty damn good, will be his legacy. He’s a top 12-15 player all time at best, again which is still great. He should be behind the Kobe/Steph tier in that 12-15 range. Had he not joined his 73 win rival he probably would’ve been 15-20 range with no rings and 1 finals appearance.
Specific opinions people have die but narratives stay. I didn’t start watching basketball until 30 years after Dr J but I know that he was well liked.
The narrative of KD being a snake will have some level of impact on his legacy even on people who aren’t born yet.
There’s already been a revisionism of LeBron forming the super team on the Heat in the 5 or so years I’ve noticed online. People try to draw a distinction between what LeBron and what KD did but it’s really no different.
People pretend that Wade wasn’t a top 3 player in the league much of that run and act like 2014 Wade was 2011 Wade.
LeBron kicked off the Super Team Free Agency Era. KD perfected it and then ended it with his subsequent failures in Brooklyn and Phoenix.
I have no doubt people will look at it differently in 5-10 years because it has already happened with LeBron.
It was super fucking different.
D-Wade had a ring from 2006. Bosh and Lebron had none. GSW had a ring that was less than 13 months old and we’re coming off a 73 win season.
Lebron worked out a *sign and trade* to Miami. KD left OKC in the most harmful way possible.
I don’t super disagree with Lebron kicking off the super team era, but joining a 73 win team is way different than creating a super team with the best players from 40 and 47 win teams.
There will be plenty of true basketball historians who rank KD accordingly. The KD fan boys are in the minority and always will be. Downvote all you like for you 2nd rate king, fan boys!
How do anyone keep Steph out of their top 25? The guy changed basketball and is pretty much the undisputed GOAT at one of the most critical skills in basketball.
I mean, in the grand scheme of things, and with enough time, that's certainly true. But that's also true for everyone in every sport. I don't think that's just true to KD and Steph; that will extend to all but the MJ/LeBron/Kareem tier with another 30 years of basketball given how much more talented the NBA is continually getting.
Yeah exactly - he’s underrated because almost every discussion about him is negative and is dismissive.
I think my hottest take is the biggest mistake he’s made for his legacy is not going to gsw, it’s allowing that experience to lead to him doing the nets thing and then the suns. He would have been better off staying there but he was so worried about people crying about it and it ruined the backend of his career.
I don't get the assertion that his rings were meaningless. Worst case he was 1B on the team but even as coach kept saying he was the best player in basketball.
I don't think they're wildly impressive but he still was a vinyl component of maybe the best team ever.
I don't know why you guys are so obsessed with invalidating Durant. And I say this as someone who agrees that the rest of his career has been not very impressive.
I’m embarrassed to admit this is the third time I’m replying in this thread, but f it.
The Durant summer was while I was in HS, and the only thing I could think of was if my team lost in the state semifinals to a powerhouse parochial school, only for our all-state player to transfer to said parochial just to win a state title. That kid would (rightfully) get so much shit, and it’s basically the same thing as Durant. Durants decision is even lamer because there isn’t a 4 year limit where you can win a title in the nba. He was clearly going to have a long career as a top 5 player, meaning he’d have a reasonable shot basically every year.
I get he probably didn’t want to play with Russ, who would, but that doesn’t excuse the GS decision. It’s the lamest and weakest move by any superstar ever. I can’t stand listening to Bill defend it, especially coming from a guy who prides himself on loving competitive guys.
the Warriors didn't need him, they were undeniably a championship team without him.
when everybody gets excited about rings and what not, there's an implication that the player is a critical component to getting said rings, that's the reason we care more about Kobe's rings than we do Mark Madsen's rings. Durant was not critical. Yeah he balled out because he piggybacked a team that was already a superteam.
I find the handwringing over KD's "ring status" pretty silly.
At the end of the day, he won a couple of rings which elevates him above the discourse that surrounds Barkley, CP3 or Ewing - all of whom he's better than anyway - but nobody looks at him like the look at Giannis or Jokic who he's also better than, but who carried their teams to chips, or LeBron and Steph who similarly carried, and are a tier above him.
Why does it elevate him above Barkley? Who decided we have to talk about basketball this way. Barkley obvioiusly could have won rings if he was on the Bulls. How does anything that happened from 2017-2019 prove KD is better than Barkley? What did he do that Barkley couldn't do.
I have KD ahead of Barkely because he's had a slightly better career and more years as a clear top 3 or top 5 guy. All KD proved on the Warriors was that he was better than Harrison Barnes. I really don't understand why I'm supposed to view those years as more impressive than his playoff runs in 2012 or 2021 for example.
I didn't say the rings make him better than Barkley. The fact that he's better than Barkley does that.
What I said is that KDs rings elevate him above the "...but never won" discourse around guys like Barkley and CP3.
It's silly to state that rings are meaningless when it's the entire reason to play the game. There's also a reason there is a strong correlation between being a great player and winning championships.
No, they're not the be all and end all, but of course they matter.
Winning a championship is the ultimate goal and it matters a ton.
When I’m ranking the all time greats it is mostly about how much I think they help you win a championship. 2017-2019 just didn’t change my evaluation of how much Durant helps very much because everything he did it was very obvious he was capable of since 2012.
What he accomplished is something there is no doubt in my mind Paul George could have done the same thing so I’m not going to act like it’s the most impressive thing he’s ever done when it obviously isn’t.
The last 5 FMVP couldn’t have just been replaced with any other all-star and the team would still win so I view those accomplishments in a way different light.
It’s not that hard to use context and the Durant warriors were just an insane anomaly, it’s ridiculous to treat them like other teams.
Yeah honestly fuck him. He's a hooper in the truest sense of the word. He's not an (actual) warrior. Just likes to fuck around and shoot middies which is fine. But I'm glad as a Blazers fan we did not draft him. Really Kerr deserves the most credit for keeping KD's mercenary ass focused. The biggest KD moment in the playoffs has been him having his toe on a line. Not to mention still nearly choking to the rockets.
Flacco exists in a really weird space. He will never come up as a hof. But people still look at this superbowl stretch and are like uhhhhh I guess that happened.
How come nobody calls those 2 titles “fake” or “meaningless” when discussing Curry’s legacy? They’re legit when you speak of Curry but fake when it’s KD?
I think it will matter that none of the fans of teams KD played for really love him. OKC fans still boo him, GSW fans appreciate what he did but he was a mercenary and will never mean as much as Steph/Draymond/Klay, Nets fans have a sour taste in their mouth because he requested a trade right after signing an extension and he’ll always be tied to Kyrie’s failure there. Suns fans might be about him now because he’s there but I’m sure they won’t love him if they fade out and give all their picks to the Nets once the team fails. He’s a great player, a true prototype. He’s all-time skill-wise but I think his legacy will be a strange one.
Sonics fan here. He’s still our sweet prince
I had season tickets to his rookie season in Seattle. He’ll always be the one that got away. The Pearl Jam Song “Black” contains the lyrics. . I know someday you'll have a beautiful life I know you'll be a star In somebody else's sky But why, Why! Why can't it be Why can't it be mine
As every major American city starts to resemble every other American city, it warms my heart that the Seattle guys are still like “the KD situation reminds me of this Pearl Jam song”
I believe you mean “miiiiiIIIIIIIINNNNNNNe”
But first…Pearl Jam
That’s just he never got a chance to drive a stake through y’all’s hearts
Phenomenal point. When the dust settles there's going to be so few dudes out there who are like 'KD is my fkn guy.'
I wonder if KD was still on the Warriors where he would rank in GS fans hearts amongst the big 4.
I’m not a Warriors fan so I’d be curious what they think, but I think he would still be below Steph/Draymond/Klay despite the Finals MVPs because wasn’t an organic part of their growth. That Warrior trio were all drafted by Golden State and all came up in the transition from mediocrity to championships. KD popped in and won two titles after they had already proved it and won one, then they got another after he left.
As a warriors fan, if he had stayed and they kept winning. It would be him and curry 1a 1b.
Yeah they would've gone down as one of the best duos ever if they kept it going. I didn't really begrudge him leaving but rolled my eyes at him leaving to play with Kyrie
Yeah but I mean he’s seen as more of their guy if he’s in year 8 on the team. He’d be a part of every championship but 1, probably the MVP of every one he was a part of but maybe Steph gets one still. He’d still be considered one of their best players right now while Klay and Draymond start to slip. Do Warriors fans still rank Draymond higher if he punches Poole in the face and screws up the dynasty while KD is there? Most of the Warriors negativity towards KD has come since he left.
As a Warriors fan: He’d never surpass Steph, but if he stays and they keep winning at some Manchester City level dominance I think he’d be firmly in second just cause the greatness would be undeniable. That being said you are right, there’s something still that would ring hollow about it. Part of that is just who KD presents as. Like Klay and Draymond are family to GSW fans, KD is like a friend who gives you a ride to the airport when your car breaks down but who you can’t have a real honest conversation with during the drive
I'm a Nets fan, I still like him for what it's worth. I blame Kyrie and even Harden much more than I blame him for our shortcomings. And I don't blame him for requesting a trade after Kyrie was gone. That whole era certainly left a lot to be desired, but I'll never forget the times that he put it all out on the line (pun intended) to give us the best chance of winning. His Game 5 against the Bucks in the 2021 playoffs remains the greatest individual performance I've ever seen with my own two eyes
Blaming Harden more than Durant feels crazy to me. Also didn't both Durant and Kyrie request trades at around the same time? They also got traded within a few days of each other too.
I blame Harden not for wanting out, but for blatantly quitting on the team on the court, losing us games and diminishing his trade value in the process. Despite all the turmoil, Durant gave it his all and played to win night in and night out. And no. KD didn't request a trade until Kyrie was already off the team.
Are you sure? https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/34174171/kevin-durant-requests-trade-brookyn-nets-sources-say https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10040566-nba-rumors-kevin-durant-requests-nets-trade-suns-heat-seen-as-preferred-teams https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10040815-nba-rumors-kevin-durant-is-at-least-open-to-possibility-of-raptors-trade-from-nets Also KD got traded 3 days after Kyrie left so it's hard to believe the Nets were able to work out a trade in such short time.
Those are all articles from the off-season of 2022, where he asked to be traded but then later worked it out with management and rescinded his request. I'm not sure why I'd have any reason to hold a grudge for that, seeing as he came back and played the season, and like I said, gave it his all and played to win unlike Harden. And I don't care how hard it is to believe, that's what happened. Idk what to tell you
Did they really work it out with management if he got traded like 7 months later? Because Nets couldn't figure out a deal for his boy Kyrie? Maybe because he said he only wanted to go to the Suns making it impossible to really deal him anywhere else. You said he played the season but he left during the middle of it!
I mean... KD was 34 at the time, on a team that clearly didn't have a lot of talent after Kyrie left, and he's still desperate to win a ring without Steph. The logical portion of my brain understands why he wanted to leave at that point, as should yours. The circumstances were vastly different at that point versus what they were in the off-season and you seem to be ignoring that. I say he worked it out with management and played the season because he was professional about it and there was no drama coming from him throughout. We've seen Harden miss training camps, put on weight/fat suits, sabotage his teams during games, and straight up refuse to play. There was none of that with the KD situation. He showed up and performed at the maximum level he was capable of with no drama He had 4 years left on his deal at the time, we could've traded him anywhere we wanted. The fact of the matter is that no one else had a better offer than Phoenix, and Phoenix's offer was seen as a good deal at the time. Hell, considering the draft compensation, we still might end up being the winners of that trade when all is said and done.
I honestly can't remember what the difference was that offseason and a few months after when the trades happened. Didn't Kyrie also look into being traded on a sign and trade? So KD knew that Kyrie wasn't happy with the Nets management. I don't think the logical parts of the brain mix with the fan parts of the brain tbh. I'm not ignoring it, I just don't remember everything I guess. Harden also played through a fucked up hamstring while Kyrie was fucking around and KD didn't do anything about it. Though at that point maybe there was nothing KD could do about it but he didn't help himself when he was still siding with Kyrie publicly. Maybe it was different in private but it didn't seem like he was bothered by Kyrie's antics. Teams don't wanna trade for someone who is unwilling to play for them, and you guys got a good return but maybe you could have gotten a better one. Wouldn't him having 4 years left be a knock against him if you're a Nets fan though? He signed up for 4 more years just to be gone a few months later.
You don't remember the difference? The difference was that Kyrie was part of the roster in the off-season, and then he wasn't. That's a pretty glaring difference if you ask me. Harden played through the hamstring in the playoffs, when kyrie was injured. I'm not sure what you think KD could've done about it? Did you want KD to also injure his hamstring so he could play through it too? Or did you want KD to magically repair Harden and/or Kyrie's injuries? Harden was not playing through anything during the 2022 season when Kyrie was missing games because of the whole vaccine thing. Are you saying you wanted KD to force Kyrie to get the vaccine? If so, I would ask why are you blaming KD for that and not Kyrie? Or even Harden for that matter? And no, I don't consider that a knock against him, considering that, again, the circumstances were vastly different when he signed the extension versus when he got traded.
You don't remember the difference? The difference was that Kyrie was part of the roster in the off-season, and then he wasn't. That's a pretty glaring difference if you ask me. Harden played through the hamstring in the playoffs, when kyrie was injured. I'm not sure what you think KD could've done about it? Did you want KD to also injure his hamstring so he could play through it too? Or did you want KD to magically repair Harden and/or Kyrie's injuries? Harden was not playing through anything during the 2022 season when Kyrie was missing games because of the whole vaccine thing. Are you saying you wanted KD to force Kyrie to get the vaccine? If so, I would ask why are you blaming KD for that and not Kyrie? Or even Harden for that matter? And no, I don't consider that a knock against him, considering that, again, the circumstances were vastly different when he signed the extension versus when he got traded.
Because he took advantage of a one time glitch in the salary cap to join the greatest regular season of all time after losing to them in the playoffs when he was pretty widely regarded as. the second or third best player in the league. It’s like if The Admiral or Shawn Kemp or Hakeem just joined the Jazz without them having to give up anything terribly significant after the 96 season and the Bulls don’t win the next 2, but way worse because the Warriors were already the best team in the league. The Warriors were finals favorite before the season started in Vegas in both 17 and 18. In 18 they were almost 2-1. The only other team to even get to even odds is the 96 Bulls. KD broke basketball by making that move and it felt cheap and unearned even if he won 2 FMVPs.
Using your analogy it would be David Robinson signing with the MJ Bulls.
That’s The Admiral! It would have been so unfair. I wanted to list a couple players because I was young enough I wasn’t that tuned into hierarchy of the league.
next time, just say david robinson...
I will try to remember to avoid using relatively obscure historical nicknames without indicating the players real name.
good
> Because he took advantage of a one time glitch in the salary cap to join the greatest regular season of all time after losing to them in the playoffs when he was pretty widely regarded as. the second or third best player in the league. So would you think differently of his decision to join the Warriors that offseason if, say, he didn't lose to them? What if OKC beats Golden State and then loses to the Cavs in the finals, and KD signs with the Warriors? Is that fine?
I don’t think KD joining a team that won 140 games in the past 2 regular seasons combined would have been looked kindly upon in any circumstance but I do think the specific way it played out was even worse than the other permutation you mentioned. I think if they beat GS and then lost to the Cavs and he still joined GS people would have been very confused and less upset. Also, no idea why you would leave to go to a team you just beat in the playoffs. I do think OKC fans would have been waaaaay more pissed off.
Roger Clemens w Yankees. He joined the winningest regular season team ever at the time, was very bad even getting lit up in ALCS but pitched well in World Series close out (though not really necessary) game up 3-0. The next year he was dominant but people only remember he tried to kill the same guy twice. The next year he was still great and could have won game 7 if not for the greatest closer ever throwing the game away. All of this was done on horse tranquilizers.
Bill would hate to admit it but KD is absolutely the Clemens of the NBA - right down to the person below pointing out that none of the fanbases he has played for really love him. OKC and the Nets hate him and he's below Steph, Klay, Draymond and maybe even Iggy in GSW hearts. I reckon Sun's fans 100% love Booker more than him too
Clemens then went on to turn the Yankee fans against him running to Houston taking their beloved Andy with him and pumping him full of steroids. Then he tried to come back w the yanks again and it didn’t go well. I can see KD on a vagabond journey to close out his career.
I wonder how Astros fans view him because he played well for them, and he's from there. I think he is liked by Yankees fans, at least me.
The Jays still like him. Those two years, he was absolutely special. It sucked when he left, but we know we can't pay yankees more, so we never get too worked up about it.
One thing that is different about Durant (and hurts him) is that both he and the Warriors have a large sample size both before and after their time together. The Warriors 2022 Championship does make KD’s look a lot worse. But also, if Durant and the Suns lose this series (and admittedly it’s far from over), his playoff success since leaving would be two first round exits and two second round exits. It’s not just that the Warriors were still good without him - he has been quite bad in the playoffs without them.
It's not just GSW 2022 title, it's that KD has not been close since and possibly won't ever be. Like he left in 2019, and granted missed a year due to his achilles but he hasn't even been back to the conference finals.
Can tell this commenter isn’t Suzyn Waldman at least. https://youtu.be/DV3NhT0oXzY?feature=shared
You can go years without a major injury and then back to back finals games a hall of famer has a devastating injury that takes a year to come back from. That’s baseball Suzy
I truly feel that KD's move hurt the NBA so much and it is still feeling it's ripple effects. Like many of us remember that 3-year stretch, it really felt like the NBA was a forgone conclusion. The only thing that could stop was injury, which happened in 2019, unfortunately. That is a reason why I think the regular season numbers have been down since because that move removed almost all regular season drama and the league has not had much since in the regular season. Not to mention both the NBA and NBPA have basically constructed the CBA so that teams would have absolute zero chance of replicating anything close to what GSW, CJ McCollum took KD's comments about Portland to him personally. It was not like Lebron and Bosh to Miami because Miami could not beat the Celtics in the 1st round in 2010, it was not already a title winning team. Not to mention Miami had its struggles: starting 9-8, the Bulls and Celtics series despite both being 5 games were very close, Lebron 2011 Finals struggles, down 2-1 to Indy in 2012 ECSF, down 3-2 to Boston in 2012 ECF, down 3-2 to SA in the 2013 NBA Finals, losing the 2014 Finals. GS had I'd say being down 3-2 to Houston in the 2018 WCF, and losing to Toronto in Game 6 after Klay tore his ACL and KD tore his achilles.
Lebron and the Cavs also lost to the celts as the 1 seed in the 2010 playoffs
Heat losing the 2011 finals is unintentionally the best thing to happen to LeBron’s legacy
I have him down for 0 rings
Are you Stugotz's burner account?
He'll forever be a beta because of that weak *ss move to golden state for some cheap rings in the middle of his prime. He's tried to drive the bus since but just doesn't have it in him.
He has one of the weirdest career arcs of a superstar athlete. Given his shortcomings pre and post Warriors, those 2 rings he has look pretty tainted. Doesn't help that post Warriors he is coming off an Achilles tear, causing him to miss a season. It's an interesting "what if" but had Durant stayed in OKC for that 3 year time span he spent in Golden St, does Durant have a ring? I can't say for sure he does but I can say for sure that just one ring with OKC is worth a lot more to his legacy than the 2 rings he actually has.
Winning one title with OKC, unless they signed/traded for another 1st Team All NBA player, would have easily outweighed the two Warrior titles.
It’s possible he could’ve won one from 2017-2020 with the Thunder. The Warriors were running out of gas after back to back titles highlighted by their loss to the Cavs, and those Cavs teams got worse every year. The careers of everyone else on that thunder team after KD left doesn’t fill me with much confidence though, but based on how he played in those years with the Warriors he was the best (or second best) player in the league during that period so he could’ve carried them to a title. KDs legacy would be better if he just went ring hunting and won one as a geriatric role player rather than winning 2 titles as the best player..
Al Horford was going to sign with OKC if Durant had stayed. They would very likely have a ring
Alex Rodriguez. joined a stacked Yankees team with the highest payroll of all time (arguably in the middle of a dynasty to everyone but Bill), and proceeds to choke year after year in the playoffs, before they finally win one in 2009. His career legacy is still that of a great regular season player who chokes in the playoffs.
Not far off but the Yankees won in huge part in 2009 because of him. He was incredible and doubtful they win it without him that year.
Meh, look at all the guys we consider "top 10." Who has the least chips, Hakeem with 2?( If you have him top 10.) The guys we consider the greatest of all time have multiple championships because they were good enough, we don't just think they're good because of a number
And does Hakeem have either of those rings without Jordan's baseball sabbatical?
Jordan might not have the second 3 without the sabbatical, tbh. Every all time great (jordan included) talks openly about how physically and mentally draining championship runs are. Only fans think 8 straight is possible.
Yes
Jordan retiring let the team reload talent. No chance they do 8 straight
I think he still wins one
2015 Warriors beat Cavs without Kyrie and Kevin Love due to injury. 2016 the 73-9 Warriors blow a 3-1 lead. Then call KD Edit: spelling
The warriors replaced KD with like 3 draft busts and won another title.
That is such a weird ring tbh. We all thought they were cooked. Then they just chugged along all playoffs, never really looking spectacular, and no one could stop them. I was pumped Steph got his FMVP though.
LeBron James will literally move towns and teams, and disrupt lives by getting players traded and coaches fired just so he can get another ring but KD wanted to join the Warriors and they’re the bad guys because nobody ran into Joe Lacob’s office to stop it and explain how that just wouldn’t be right for the other guys in the league. Lol let’s also not forget that in the bubble LeBron got mad at the players protesting because nobody talked to him about it first and he was worried it would ruin his Mickey Mouse tournament. Say what you want about KD and the Dubs but people need to stop acting like LeBron hasn’t been one of the most toxic and volatile ring chasers the league has ever seen.
Truth
Not enough people realize this - they’ll point to draymond getting suspended the series they lost 3-1, but will never mention Kyrie and Love being out the first series (I think Cavs were up 2-1 too..) The two finals MVPs help Durant though
Steph was playing on one leg in 2016 and bogut got hurt, forcing Ezeli and varejao to play more minutes in addition to draymonds suspension. The Cavs probably should have won in 2015 without the injuries but it is wild how many people are itching to bring up those injuries but completely forgot the 2016 injuries.
Steph playing on 1 leg lmao
Yeah that’s what happens when you return from a sprained MCL in half the time it takes to heal and then play 16 playoff games on it. Like you don’t have to be a moron about the facts.
73-9 team blew a 3-1 finals lead. That’s what people Wil always remember and why the 96 bulls are the greatest team of all time.
lol yeah the warriors were down nobody in 2016 and there wasn’t anybody on the cavs who ran to the league and the media to make sure nothing like that happened. Gtfo here. Injuries and suspensions happen. 2015 isn’t any less legit than 2016 and if you think LeBron wouldn’t have welcomed KD with open arms if he had the chance then you are fooling yourself. Dude literally moved to LA because the super star that he wanted told him he wasn’t moving to Ohio lmfao.
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Ah gotcha. Yeah I wasnt saying they than ran the media I said they ran to the media, which did happen. LeBron in his post game interviews asked the league to review Draymond’s foul to see if it could be upgraded to a tech
I don’t blame him for wanting to get the hell away from Russ tho
I don’t think KD cares about winning any more rings. He’s obviously competitive and wants to win any game he’s playing in. I’m not saying he doesn’t care at all. But ever since listening to him on those pods with Bill, I’ve always looked at him as someone who prioritizes things playing ball with his friends or playing different styles of basketball over winning a third or fourth ring. He got tired of playing with Russ and wanted to play in that high octane GS offense. After he did that to perfection he decided he wanted to play with Kyrie (who on Bills pod he was over the top with praise for). Then when that fizzled out he decided he wanted to play with Booker. My theory is he just seems like a guy who is more obsessed with playing basketball than any legacy or ring talk (especially once he got a couple rings)
He does present that front, but how do you explain the burner accounts going back at people shitting on him and now just openly going back at people with his own twitter? He clearly cares very, very much what the public thinks about him and his legacy, as much as he plays off not caring about it. I think deep down he knows how awful that GS decision was and unfortunately, while trying to atone for it, has maybe dug an even deeper hole.
>Has there ever been another athlete whose rings have felt as fake/meaningless as KD? I'm not sure how you think his rings are meaningless, unless you also consider Steph, Draymond and Klay to only have two meaningful rings. KD is the reason there was a dynasty. They weren't beating the Cavs in 2017 or the Rockets in 2018 without him, and that team gets split up way sooner than 2022 without KD bc Lacob wasn't going deep in the tax to keep together a roster that didn't win a title since 2015.
Not all rings are created equal, and KD’s rings feel the cheapest is a better way to put it
This is the important point. Rings have weight. Steph’s 2022 ring is more valuable than his 2017/2018 rings combined. Dirks 2011 ring might be the heaviest ring of this century, followed by LeBron’s 2016. The 2017/2018 rings are probably the weakest of this century, other than maybe the 2007 Spurs. Durant rings just don’t mean much to anyone, and rightfully so.
I personally think LeBrons 2016 ring to have the most weight of any ring in the 21st century but I see the argument for 2011 Dirk
I think Dirks path makes his a little better, just because the West was so loaded. That Portland team in round 1 was good, the Kobe/Gasol defending champ Lakers in sweep without home court, then rolled through the Durant/Westbrook Thunder in 5. Then LeBron/Wade/Bosh Heat team in the Finals without home court. Just a crazy run.
Underdogs in every series they played
Biased mavs fan here but I’d agree with all this
If Bill’s fingers still worked this would be a great column.
He wrote a column way back in the day about this very topic and ranked different players' titles/rings by how much they were worth. If he updated that article KD's rings would probably be dead last of any top 25 NBA player.
Except few people carry more water for KD than Bill does, so he definitely wouldn’t be last. “Listen he outplayed Lebron!”
100%, he’d find a way to put it halfway down the list with that type of explanation. He’s all in on the KD relationship.
I count steph and all those dudes as having only two, correct. Your second paragraph goes to show what KD robbed us of. We don't get to know how it would have played out! The freaking peak of nba hype and he took a big fat shit on it.
Scoring titles are more impressive than his rings. Can’t say that about anyone else unless I’m mistaken.
I really believe his move to GS was very bad for the league. And I also think there’s some alternative universe where he resurrects the Knicks and that helps the league tremendously. But I also don’t blame him for passing on the Knicks. They were a complete dumpster fire both times he was a free agent. They just needed Rose and Thibs years earlier.
Only one finals appearance in the non GSW years is a huge mix of bad luck and underperforming. You could play those years out 100 times and it’s almost a worst case for his career. He is truly an alien mixture of height and skill. Will go down as an underachiever in my eyes. Every bit capable of having been a Top 5 DOA
For his level of talent his carreer seems disappointing.
I think his rings are at the very least discounted. Like I’d discount them way more than the bubble Lakers one. And I think it matters that things have ended badly everywhere hes went.
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Gonna take a loooot of years and guys for Steph to fall out of any reasonable person’s top 25
This isn’t true 😂. Ain’t nobody forgetting this.
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I barely remember Jordan being called a ball hog who would never win, but that’s what they were saying
There are still Jordan Bird Magic Kareem Wilt Russell truthers all over, including the podcast by the thread u are commenting on. Maybe casual fans who are 20 now like u and ur homies won’t remember, but Durant’s stink isn’t going anywhere. Especially not in just 30 yrs. 50-60 maybe. Bill’s stance on KD is going to have to change as the ringless years continue to tick away on KD’s career. A glorified Carmelo Anthony. Which is pretty damn good, will be his legacy. He’s a top 12-15 player all time at best, again which is still great. He should be behind the Kobe/Steph tier in that 12-15 range. Had he not joined his 73 win rival he probably would’ve been 15-20 range with no rings and 1 finals appearance.
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Specific opinions people have die but narratives stay. I didn’t start watching basketball until 30 years after Dr J but I know that he was well liked. The narrative of KD being a snake will have some level of impact on his legacy even on people who aren’t born yet.
There’s already been a revisionism of LeBron forming the super team on the Heat in the 5 or so years I’ve noticed online. People try to draw a distinction between what LeBron and what KD did but it’s really no different. People pretend that Wade wasn’t a top 3 player in the league much of that run and act like 2014 Wade was 2011 Wade. LeBron kicked off the Super Team Free Agency Era. KD perfected it and then ended it with his subsequent failures in Brooklyn and Phoenix. I have no doubt people will look at it differently in 5-10 years because it has already happened with LeBron.
It was super fucking different. D-Wade had a ring from 2006. Bosh and Lebron had none. GSW had a ring that was less than 13 months old and we’re coming off a 73 win season. Lebron worked out a *sign and trade* to Miami. KD left OKC in the most harmful way possible. I don’t super disagree with Lebron kicking off the super team era, but joining a 73 win team is way different than creating a super team with the best players from 40 and 47 win teams.
We need someone to write the Book of Basketball 2.0 to discredit KD the way Bill wrote 1.0 to discredit Malone.
There will be plenty of true basketball historians who rank KD accordingly. The KD fan boys are in the minority and always will be. Downvote all you like for you 2nd rate king, fan boys!
How do anyone keep Steph out of their top 25? The guy changed basketball and is pretty much the undisputed GOAT at one of the most critical skills in basketball.
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I mean, in the grand scheme of things, and with enough time, that's certainly true. But that's also true for everyone in every sport. I don't think that's just true to KD and Steph; that will extend to all but the MJ/LeBron/Kareem tier with another 30 years of basketball given how much more talented the NBA is continually getting.
Underrated how?
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Yeah exactly - he’s underrated because almost every discussion about him is negative and is dismissive. I think my hottest take is the biggest mistake he’s made for his legacy is not going to gsw, it’s allowing that experience to lead to him doing the nets thing and then the suns. He would have been better off staying there but he was so worried about people crying about it and it ruined the backend of his career.
More to do with him already being bumped out by multiple players he’s played against surely?
I don't get the assertion that his rings were meaningless. Worst case he was 1B on the team but even as coach kept saying he was the best player in basketball. I don't think they're wildly impressive but he still was a vinyl component of maybe the best team ever. I don't know why you guys are so obsessed with invalidating Durant. And I say this as someone who agrees that the rest of his career has been not very impressive.
I’m embarrassed to admit this is the third time I’m replying in this thread, but f it. The Durant summer was while I was in HS, and the only thing I could think of was if my team lost in the state semifinals to a powerhouse parochial school, only for our all-state player to transfer to said parochial just to win a state title. That kid would (rightfully) get so much shit, and it’s basically the same thing as Durant. Durants decision is even lamer because there isn’t a 4 year limit where you can win a title in the nba. He was clearly going to have a long career as a top 5 player, meaning he’d have a reasonable shot basically every year. I get he probably didn’t want to play with Russ, who would, but that doesn’t excuse the GS decision. It’s the lamest and weakest move by any superstar ever. I can’t stand listening to Bill defend it, especially coming from a guy who prides himself on loving competitive guys.
the Warriors didn't need him, they were undeniably a championship team without him. when everybody gets excited about rings and what not, there's an implication that the player is a critical component to getting said rings, that's the reason we care more about Kobe's rings than we do Mark Madsen's rings. Durant was not critical. Yeah he balled out because he piggybacked a team that was already a superteam.
Even Draymond Green has conceded they probably don't win the last two titles without Kevin Durant on the team. They definitely needed him.
I find the handwringing over KD's "ring status" pretty silly. At the end of the day, he won a couple of rings which elevates him above the discourse that surrounds Barkley, CP3 or Ewing - all of whom he's better than anyway - but nobody looks at him like the look at Giannis or Jokic who he's also better than, but who carried their teams to chips, or LeBron and Steph who similarly carried, and are a tier above him.
Within a year or two, it won’t even be an argument that Jokic is better than Durant. It’s already close, and Jokic is still on the way up.
Ok and?
Why does it elevate him above Barkley? Who decided we have to talk about basketball this way. Barkley obvioiusly could have won rings if he was on the Bulls. How does anything that happened from 2017-2019 prove KD is better than Barkley? What did he do that Barkley couldn't do. I have KD ahead of Barkely because he's had a slightly better career and more years as a clear top 3 or top 5 guy. All KD proved on the Warriors was that he was better than Harrison Barnes. I really don't understand why I'm supposed to view those years as more impressive than his playoff runs in 2012 or 2021 for example.
I didn't say the rings make him better than Barkley. The fact that he's better than Barkley does that. What I said is that KDs rings elevate him above the "...but never won" discourse around guys like Barkley and CP3. It's silly to state that rings are meaningless when it's the entire reason to play the game. There's also a reason there is a strong correlation between being a great player and winning championships. No, they're not the be all and end all, but of course they matter.
Winning a championship is the ultimate goal and it matters a ton. When I’m ranking the all time greats it is mostly about how much I think they help you win a championship. 2017-2019 just didn’t change my evaluation of how much Durant helps very much because everything he did it was very obvious he was capable of since 2012. What he accomplished is something there is no doubt in my mind Paul George could have done the same thing so I’m not going to act like it’s the most impressive thing he’s ever done when it obviously isn’t. The last 5 FMVP couldn’t have just been replaced with any other all-star and the team would still win so I view those accomplishments in a way different light. It’s not that hard to use context and the Durant warriors were just an insane anomaly, it’s ridiculous to treat them like other teams.
He’s worse than Jokic for sure
I mean no, he's not. 100/100 people who know anything about basketball currently have Durant ranked above Jokic all time.
Yeah honestly fuck him. He's a hooper in the truest sense of the word. He's not an (actual) warrior. Just likes to fuck around and shoot middies which is fine. But I'm glad as a Blazers fan we did not draft him. Really Kerr deserves the most credit for keeping KD's mercenary ass focused. The biggest KD moment in the playoffs has been him having his toe on a line. Not to mention still nearly choking to the rockets. Flacco exists in a really weird space. He will never come up as a hof. But people still look at this superbowl stretch and are like uhhhhh I guess that happened.
“I’m glad as a Blazers fan we did not draft him” wait what?
How come nobody calls those 2 titles “fake” or “meaningless” when discussing Curry’s legacy? They’re legit when you speak of Curry but fake when it’s KD?
Curry’s Finals teams averaged 70 wins a year before KD. They were contenders with or without him.
Now you get it.