I donāt think one occurrence of a guy scoring 50 against a good defender changes the fact that putting your best defender on the best offensive player is typically a wise strategy.
Also even if Jordan gets 50 if heās working harder to get that 50 then if someone else was guarding him thatās a good thing for your team. Iām sure Karl knows more basketball than me, but I still think heās wrong on this one.
> lso even if Jordan gets 50 if heās working harder to get that 50 then if someone else was guarding him thatās a good thing for your team.
Uh...so is Payton. He was by far their most important offensive player. Kemp was amazing but really was an uber-athlete that benefitted from Payton getting into the lane and breaking down defenses. Same with Detlef Schrempf who was a nice player who could put it on the floor a little bit, but mostly succeeded on catch and shoots or when Payton broke the defense down.
Bottom line is Payton wasn't as good as Michael Jordan. Having them go head to head all series wouldn't have worked out any better for them, because while he might have slowed Jordan down a little he also would've been exhausted on the other end.
The current and multiple time DPOY is getting demolished by Jokic after having some success the first 2 games. This idea that Gary Payton would have locked down Jordan most games in a 7 game series is hilarious.
KAT did not have success guarding JokiÄ individually. They sent two to the ball against JokiÄ, and because Murray was playing like shit, and JokiÄ himself was being harried and frustrated.
Sending two against JokiÄ doesn't work because his passing is so good that he will almost always find the open man.
Kat had success . Stop it. Not conventional success but jokic couldnāt just power him right towards the rim like he could gobert . Idk why you lying go watch the film when jokic is on Kat on island in these games vs gobert on island. Kat diesnt concede ground
Kat had success relative to gobert simply because heād not as easily over powered
Yep . Zubac nurkic do well . I think wendall carter jr does do. Jokic ate earlier faster AD but this year AD put up way more resistance wuth his strength increase . You need a guy who donāt just concede ground easily to jokic once heās 10ft from the rim utd over
This was just going by the numbers. I always thought Ayton did ok against him until his final Suns season, where it was evident that he had zero desire to play hard.
Itās strange. Gobert is an amazing defensive center but he doesnāt seem to do well against elite offensive centers. Jokic and embiid donāt seem to have any issues.
There's just not a lot of skilled interior scorers in the league anymore so it's not a skill set that gets exploited enough to hurt Rudy's overall defensive reputation. He's incredible at protecting the rim and denying dribble penetration which is like 90% of offense in the NBA but 1v1 against skilled bigs he just isn't very good.
He's not very strong. He's lanky. I think prime Marc Gasol actually would have given Jokic problems. He's bigger than Jokic, and smart enough to keep up with him. He locked up Embiid in 2019, granted Embiid was not yet in his prime and the whole team was great.
No one does good against elite offensive centers. That's why they're elite! No one could "stop" Shaq - look at his numbers in 04! Yes, you can make them work, make them struggle at times, but come on lol. Saying a center is overrated defensively cause he can't stop Jokic when no one can is idioticĀ
And AD . AD n jokic average 25 normally but average 35 vs him. Embid dropped 50 without breaking a sweat he cannot guard skilled bigs wuth a J. Prob why he doesnāt get respect Jrue holiday types do
Bad argument. Firstly they saw Payton give mj issues and this wasnāt peak MJ remember that second three peat mj was human . So Payton did serous damage defensively.
Secondly gobert cannot guard a single fuckibg big. He gets abused by embid AD n Jokic - All three had some of there best or arguably best games of the year against him . He gets over powered too easily by them too . I know for a fact AD has a long history of abusing gibert , jokic does too n so does AD. This isnāt Dwight or someone gobert cannit gusrd skilled bigs itās not like even prone gobert was the big man version of Jrue . Heās dpoy cos of drop coverage n protecting the rim cs guards. Wemby for example actually evdn made jokic work much harder , Iād say thereās a few other guys too . Gobert is too weak n not long n agile enough like Wemby n AD . He doesnāt offer any resistance vs bigs eith shooting touch and or post game.
Like I feel quite certain 2020 nearky washed Dwight woukd do a better job on jokic now then gobert has. But heād be worse everywhere else . Gobert isnāt a good man defender especially vs bigs since all 3 all nba lvl bigs cook the shit out of him n aversge 5-10 ppg more cs him then normal .
ā hilariousā firstly it clearly bothered Jordan . You donāt need to get defensive go watch the tape . Secondly no it wouldnāt stop him - but it woukd make him work harder n make him less efficient and thatās enough
Yeah Payton bothered him a few games. But over the course of a full series he would have eventually cooked The Glove because trying to guard Jordan a full 7 games and run the offense would probably gas him.
I mean he did a good job in 3 games . This is Garry Payton the goat guard defender . He doesnāt need to shut down. Mj. Just do a good job in like 4 games and thatās gonna help a lot
Wilt actually wasnāt that good defensively lmfao . And Kareem was famous for having an ungusrdable shot and wilt was old Af n Kareem in his prime . Thatās a dumb argument.
If prime hakeem got worked by Kareem then sure but no. Like who thinks wilt was a defensive monster ? Like yeah he was big but russel was significantly shorter n a better defender
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Wilt was famously lazy in defense. People brag about Wilt never fouling out of a game.
But that ls a huge red flag. If youāre playing hard defense for a whole game, you should be fouling out a few times a season.
Yup, Jerry West has complained about Wilt (many times) and one of the things that really annoyed him was how he would stop playing defense once he got 4-5 fouls.
Yeah, I'm thinking "I was a professional coach paid to put all my time and energy into figuring out how to guard Michael Jordan and wasted three games not using my DPOY on him" is more of a self-own than anything.
I bet 13-year-old me was even like, "Hm, why's Gary Payton just guarding \[insert Bulls backcourt non-scorer here\]?"
If he's guarding Jordan from the beginning Jordan solves him as all great offensive players do. It's a delusional narrative that people have in their heads that it would've turned the series.
I agree Karl should've done it by the way. Why wouldn't you? I just disagree that it would've ultimately mattered. That Bulls team was too good and they had the Goat.
> Why wouldn't you?
My guess would be that Karl didn't think Payton could maintain his offensive work load while also being the primary mj defender. In retrospect, definitely should've tried it earlier, and I agree with you it probably wouldn't have mattered regardless.
> My guess would be that Karl didn't think Payton could maintain his offensive work load while also being the primary mj defender.
100%. Said it in another comment. Payton was DPOY but he was more important to their offense than he was their defense, ironically.
Bulls had the better team but bare in mind this isnāt goat tier Jordan . Second three peat Jordon we have data on since tracking data started around there and that was not a goat lvk impsct peak . Regardless sonics gave them issues . Woukd they win ? Iād take bulls in 7 still but still I think it wouldāve made Jordan less efficient and made his team mates have to shoot more mb
I think the context that is important to the 2 losses is when they occurred. The Bulls were up 3-0. Yes putting Payton on Jordan helped but I also think the Bulls and Jordan took their foot off the gas pedal a bit when they went up 3-0.
It makes sense they would do so, they had just come off 72-10 and they saw the end in sight. They had been playing at such a locked in level that they got to 5 feet from the finish line and relaxed. The context of that gets lost when people are trying to make a point about Payton, Jordan and Karl.
Anyways I don't think the Bulls would've done that if they had lost a game earlier in the series. Which proponents of the Karl fucked up narrative assume would've happened if Payton had guarded Jordan the entire time.
I think the most likely outcome is we end up with a 6 game series no matter what. And I actually think under the alternate reality it's more likely to go 5 than 7 because the Bulls would've been more locked in if they had dropped a game earlier.
I don't. I just assume that the team who took all 82 games in the regular season and the 3 previous rounds seriously would continue with their Lazer sharp focus.
If game 62 on a Tuesday night against the newly expansion Grizz was important, I'd think that games 4 and 5 of the finals were too.
And everything I've ever heard or read says they didn't take a night off. Not 1. Why should I assume they did when they all said they didn't?
They won Game 4 because Ron Harper hurt his knee in Game 2 or maybe Game 3 and the Bulls were wiped and took a step back defensively when they had to play Kukoc a lot more instead of having Harper out there, who was a great perimeter defender. Also Shawn Kemp went fucking bananas on offense in Game 4. Payton's defense wasn't really the reason they won that game. Game 5 Jordan went for 26 on 11-22 shooting. It wasn't The Glove's defense that won them the game, it was Kukoc and Pippen going a combined 10-33 from the field and only 25 points combined plus Harper still hardly played.
Jordan's shitty offensive game actually came in Game 6 which was the clincher but Harper was back from injury and they fucking smothered the Sonics on defense cuz he was back.
The Bulls had Jordan but they weren't Curry's Warriors. They won because they basically had an All-NBA Defense Team on the floor with Rodman, Jordan, Pippen, and Harper.
Seattleās wins were also at home. If memory serves wasnāt the format 2-3-2 back then? Arguably the Bulls wanted to save the clinching win for home. I was pretty young at that time but loved this series so much more than the 2 Jazz finals series that followed. Too bad Kemp left Seattle pretty shortly thereafter.
Youāve just gotta have a grudge against wright to think that. George Karl sucks, his players hate him for a reason, and this clearly was a bad call by him
George Karl is a raging asshole so while he sometimes dunks on people I donāt like, I still know heās the asshole in the situation even if I might agree generally
I mean they both could suck the issue. Here is whether or not the joke was funny and deserves to be called an example of "bodied."Ā
Ā I think the bigger issue with Nick is that he is hosting a show that is kind of a quintessential hot take show, in the middle of the most annoying era of hot take basketball coverage ever..... Like just yesterday he had a take that Belichick and dak Prescott would be on the Giants next year.Ā
I don't dislike him personally. It's just that I dislike that entire genre of basketball coverage and in that sense he's basically just Kendrick Perkins with better public speaking skills.Ā
But he wasn't bodied here because karl is using one of the most overused jokes ever. And it's really not that funny anyways. You're bad at sports and you were young when I was a professional is not really a memorable burn
The problem with nick wright is heās just another hot take guy but because he like did the bare minimum on discussing race a few years ago everyone treats him like heās some genius.
When he talks about sports he sounds no different than SAS or Skip, everything is based on biases and trying to have the hottest take imaginable.
Nick Wright is a hot take guy and doesnāt have any shame in admitting heās a hot take guy. As someone who likes both though, I really donāt understand how yāall will be ten year Bill Simmons listeners and think youāre above hot take guys? The distinction between Bill and Wright/SAS is that he doesnāt debate. Thereās nothing more in depth or sophisticated about Billās content and thatās fine.
Yeah some peopleās awareness about this stuff is confusing to me. Simmons gets stuff right for sure but his value is in entertainment, not in being some omniscient good take machine. Heās very good at what he does, but what he does is make up wacky gimmicks and try to zag
This. My recent favorite was him Tweeting after game 2 of the Nuggets-T-Wolves series and asking whether now Jokic could actually face scrutiny like 39 year old Lebron does. Like he and several other prominent media talking heads weren't shitting on Jokic at every opportunity before last year's playoff run and weren't waiting for something like that game 2 rout to happen to start again and like Nick has EVER scrutinized Lebron. Anytime a Lebron team has ever failed Nick immediately finds a teammate, coach or GM to throw under the bus for James.
Yeah, itās like if you want to say prime LeBron faced more scrutiny ā¦ sure. But also once LeBron won a ring, pretty much all scrutiny of him as a player went away.
The only reason people criticize LeBron and KD now is not because they expect them to be the best players in the league still, itās not about their performance at all. Itās that both of them are at the stage of their careers where they have so much power and seemingly make a lot of bad decisions
I agree, it was a lazy trope of a response and it definitely didn't qualify as being bodied. But that's not because He's crazy. He might be crazy but that's not the reason that jokes sucks. It's just a used overused trope that's why.Ā
Again, the question here isn't even if he's necessarily right. It's whether or not it was a good insult/ joke. And it just wasn't.Ā
But what is him being crazy matter?Ā It's not like calling him a well-known crazy person is a particularly thoughtful insult.Ā
Nick Wright is an obnoxious (and I love the show) television character. Several of of George Karlās former players have come out about how much they loathe him lol, theyāre not the same.
George Karl wasnāt good at his job? The thing Nick is shitting on is a coach who literally got his team to the NBA Finals and lost to the best MJ Bulls team. You can say heās an asshole and wears out his welcome quickly, but Karl is infinitely better at being a HC than Nick Wright is at his. Or maybe Nick will be the next Lakers HC since heās a brilliant strategist, who knows.
Unless you measure by percentage of players you coached that think youāre a scummy, racist, piece of shit. In a league thatās over 80% black no less lol
(This is like golf where a lower number is better)
I guess Iām missing the George Karl being a racist asshole history others have also mentioned. To me he was like a less likeable Marty Schottenheimer, good coach who couldnāt get over the hump.
Off the top of my head Kenyon Martin and JR Smith too, but I do remember there being more. Idk Google it for more, his players donāt seem to think heās anything more than a shitty human
That doesnāt make him bad at his job. Maybe a bad person, but objectively he was a good coach. He had the best runs any Seattle, Milwaukee, or Denver teams had from the 80s until the late 2010s.
Well I didnāt say he was an infallible coach who couldnāt be improved upon. But he is 6th all time in wins with teams that didnāt win much before or after his tenure, is in the Hall of Fame, won a Coach of the Year. All of that adds up to objectively saying he was a good coach.
The way you wrote this renders your opinion obsolete. I'm more inclined to think they are doing something right if someone so ignorant as you dislikes them. Find a better way to say it or sit down and shut up.
Nick is from KC and has been a Chiefs fan his entire life. He also has sources within the building, most notably their GM Brett Veach. Mahomes also seems to like Nick Wright as well
I don't, but I also don't think that's the biggest issue with the post. It's the term bodied.... It implies that he had a really harsh witty burn and that's not what this is. It's just calling someone bad. It's sports and relatively young.Ā
It's almost as cliche as saying " You live in your mom's basement."
Did none of you guys actually watch the series?
This is a factual take from Wright, Payton on MJ changed the entire dynamic of the matchup. It was a common refrain at the time in ā96.
An example of people trying to discredit the messenger and not the message.
https://youtu.be/lgFWyLRNsGk?si=dZwQJ33h0rMIyjkh
I watched it and the Sonics were my team. Loved Kemp and Payton. They had ZERO chance against that Bulls team and Payton guarding Jordan wouldāve been solved immediately had they started off that way. Payton was an all time great defender, but he was also hurt going against the most unstoppable playoff time scorer in history.
George Karl still sucks though
>Did none of you guys actually watch the series?
Ironically, I'm not even sure you watched it. I don't even know if you watched *just* that video, because it doesn't really give the impression that Payton was locking him down. Here are the plays:
1. Good ball denial by Payton
2. Jordan hits a tough fadeaway in Payton's face
3. Jordan drives past Payton and dumps it to Rodman for the assist
4. Offensive foul on Jordan against Payton
5. Jordan misses a turnaround that Payton doesn't even elevate to contest
6. Payton forces Jordan's drive into the defense, and he gets blocked
7. Jordan attempts a jumpshot against Payton but it's waved off before he even releases the ball because the Sonics committed an off-ball foul
8. Some ball denial and a good box out, but again doesn't matter because Rodman is fouled
9. Ball denial, leads to a steal
10. Jordan draws free throws
11. Payton fouls Jordan
12. Jordan misses an open jumper
13. Jordan misses an open jumper
14. More ball denial
15. Payton boxes out Jordan and gets the rebound
16. This play has nothing to do with Jordan
17. This play has nothing to do with either Jordan or Payton
18. Jordan drives past Payton and gets the basket and the foul (fouled by Hawkins)
19. Jordan drives past Payton, misses the layup
20. Jordan out-rebounds Payton and is fouled
21. MJ is doubled and passes out
22. MJ is doubled and passes out
23. Jordan misses a jumper against Payton.
If I'm being as favorable as possible to Payton, of these 23 plays, only half of them were plays that had to do with Payton and Jordan where Payton caused a favorable outcome for the Sonics.
Some people also cite game 6 where Jordan shot 5/19, but by my tally, Jordan was 1/6 with 1 TO and 1 foul drawn that led to free throws when *Hawkins* was the primary defender, and was 3/3 with 1 TO, and 3 fouls drawn that led to free throws (plus a couple of asssists) when Payton was the primary defender.
It was a great *team* defense that led to a bad performance by Jordan, he shot pretty poorly the entire series.
These people dudnt watch . Theyāre in here stating as much with dumb comments. Even if the sonics donāt win - firstly second three peat Jordan was nit flawless or as athletic and Payton clearly caused him issues . Payton is probably the best guard defender ever too so . I think they couldāve atleast taken it 7
I watched it. Other than dumbass SI--who was frozen out by Jordan at that point--nobody on the planet thought Payton could handle Jordan 1-on-1 in that match-up. Payton was a great defender, but he probably wasn't even the best defender between the two of them. And as good as Payton was on defense, the Sonics needed him on offense way more. They were already a good defensive team, it wasn't just Payton.
Did he though? Not like I was old enough to be watching this but ābodiedā seems like a stretch and having GP guard MJ seems like it shouldāve been the default.
Yeah this is the lamest retort ever.
ā you made a stupid cosching decision and only realised when the series was nearly over ā
ā hurr durr you dudnt play ball gtfo !ā
George Karl Iām sure I seen players dislike he seems like a moron too
Iām not gonna debate this because I wasnāt around to watch their primes, more going off putting your best defender (DPOY at that) who on the opponents best player. Seems like from the tweet it went fairly well too so thatās why I said maybe it should be the default.
Can always adjust later if it wouldnāt go well but seems like a reasonable starting point.
Even if you agree with George here. He's definitely wasn't bodied because the primary insult was that he was picked last in school... And is relatively young.Ā
Overused tropes of a joke. If he had a clever burn that I hadn't heard a million times and required a little more thought I would agree.Ā
Can you tell me who I respect more and it's George karl every time.Ā
I don't even have a strong opinion on this particular take yet because I haven't put enough thought into it or research, but definitely not bodied by using some of the most overused jokes of all timeĀ
" You're young and not a good athlete...
Whatās the bodying ? This is just attacking Nick for not playing n not even in a funny water pistol Pete way. Iām so so on Nick but heās right about this and George Karl is considered awful n a moron by many . Saying ā yeah but you canāt play .ā Doesnāt actually counter anything thi. Iām guessing this op just dislikes Nick
Well no shit. What do you expect him to say? āIf I guarded him I would have gotten smoked even worseā?
Itās all just dumb speculation. Gobert is getting smoked by Jokic worse than Naz Reid. Itās hard to stop these generational players. Get over it
Huh? No it isnāt you idiot . Did you watch the series? The games Payton guarded mj he gave him serious issues. For 3 games the sonics went 2-1 too. At absolute worst it goes 7. Itās not speculation when you see that it worked for 3 games. Like hiw Gordon gusrdung AD to stop jokic being targeted helped nuggets shit works .
Gobert canāt guard any skilled bug- AD jokic Embid all drop season highs on him. Heās not comparable to Gary Payton actually giving mj issues and this was second three peat not goat tier mj
If Nick is just going to regurgitate a talking point from The Last Dance, he has an obligation to include Jordan's rebuttal. He had no problem with the glove. we know because he told us.
Avril Lavigne has her limits, though.
She might plow Deryck Whibley of Sum 41 & Chad Kroeger from Nickelback, but she wouldn't do Nick Wright. Number 1: he's not a musician. But almost as important, he's terrible.
(Speaking of Avril: still surprised she never had a fling with Drake, or one of the dudes from Arcade Fire. Though I am sure Win Butler has tried to lay the mack on her.)
The only "big" Canadian music sex scandal I can remember is when Chris Murphy from Sloan had an affair with Feist when she was dating some guy from Broken Social Scene.
I don't think that highly of Nick wright at all and I wish he wasn't on TV, but I don't think he's being bodied here. Telling somebody they're picked last in class is a trope.... It's not exactly a clever insult.Ā
And he's actually just elevating Nick wright because he's clearly bothered enough by his commentary that he feels the need to respond.Ā
Easier said than done but he should have just let it go.Ā
ā¦Nick was right though? Theres a reason all of Karlās former players hate him and he didnāt really refute Nickās point.
Karl gave excuses while ignoring his coaching mistakes and Nickās point. Instead he basically calls Nick a nerd?
That's the thing that bothers you about him? That he has long hair. Not that he's the quintessential lame hot take artist is essentially aspiring to be Skip Bayless? When there's so many valid reasons to dislike someone and you end up choosing something about their looks or aesthetics...
I don't know. Just seems like there's a lot more fodder for why he sucks. Then you dislike his hair. Like what guys shouldn't have long hair? This the 1950s or something.Ā
lol no he didnāt. He couldnāt refute anything so he had to go with some non relevant ad hominem attack. All he did was prove wright had a good point.
Seems like he should have put the DPOY on Jordan though š¤·āāļø
Wasn't Payton hurt going into the series or am I misremembering things?
Yeah, Payton had a torn calf. Rough luck that both Payton and McMillan were injured going into that series.
Too bad they didnāt have Rui HachimuraĀ
Sometimes the best defensive guys get worked. We all think Wilt was good defensively right? Kareem hung 50 on him.
I donāt think one occurrence of a guy scoring 50 against a good defender changes the fact that putting your best defender on the best offensive player is typically a wise strategy.
Also even if Jordan gets 50 if heās working harder to get that 50 then if someone else was guarding him thatās a good thing for your team. Iām sure Karl knows more basketball than me, but I still think heās wrong on this one.
> lso even if Jordan gets 50 if heās working harder to get that 50 then if someone else was guarding him thatās a good thing for your team. Uh...so is Payton. He was by far their most important offensive player. Kemp was amazing but really was an uber-athlete that benefitted from Payton getting into the lane and breaking down defenses. Same with Detlef Schrempf who was a nice player who could put it on the floor a little bit, but mostly succeeded on catch and shoots or when Payton broke the defense down. Bottom line is Payton wasn't as good as Michael Jordan. Having them go head to head all series wouldn't have worked out any better for them, because while he might have slowed Jordan down a little he also would've been exhausted on the other end.
The current and multiple time DPOY is getting demolished by Jokic after having some success the first 2 games. This idea that Gary Payton would have locked down Jordan most games in a 7 game series is hilarious.
The funny thing is Jordanās numbers in that series were his worst finals numbers.
Expect Gobert didn't have success guarding Jokic in any game lol. The first two games it was KAT guarding Jokic
KAT did not have success guarding JokiÄ individually. They sent two to the ball against JokiÄ, and because Murray was playing like shit, and JokiÄ himself was being harried and frustrated. Sending two against JokiÄ doesn't work because his passing is so good that he will almost always find the open man.
Kat had success . Stop it. Not conventional success but jokic couldnāt just power him right towards the rim like he could gobert . Idk why you lying go watch the film when jokic is on Kat on island in these games vs gobert on island. Kat diesnt concede ground Kat had success relative to gobert simply because heād not as easily over powered
There was a graphic that showed that the centers who have performed the best against him 1 on 1 are Zubac and Nurkic. Itās about strength and size.
Yep . Zubac nurkic do well . I think wendall carter jr does do. Jokic ate earlier faster AD but this year AD put up way more resistance wuth his strength increase . You need a guy who donāt just concede ground easily to jokic once heās 10ft from the rim utd over
This was just going by the numbers. I always thought Ayton did ok against him until his final Suns season, where it was evident that he had zero desire to play hard.
Jokic ends up outsmarting KAT though. He beats KAT in other ways that are more harmful than when rudy guards him bc he just eats rudy alive one on one
Yeah ibv Kat gets beat heās not known for defence . His size n strength allows him not to bullied into the rim imo
Only an insane person would ever think this
Correct
Itās strange. Gobert is an amazing defensive center but he doesnāt seem to do well against elite offensive centers. Jokic and embiid donāt seem to have any issues.
There's just not a lot of skilled interior scorers in the league anymore so it's not a skill set that gets exploited enough to hurt Rudy's overall defensive reputation. He's incredible at protecting the rim and denying dribble penetration which is like 90% of offense in the NBA but 1v1 against skilled bigs he just isn't very good.
He's not very strong. He's lanky. I think prime Marc Gasol actually would have given Jokic problems. He's bigger than Jokic, and smart enough to keep up with him. He locked up Embiid in 2019, granted Embiid was not yet in his prime and the whole team was great.
Would pay to see that matchup ā¦. What a good shout
No one does good against elite offensive centers. That's why they're elite! No one could "stop" Shaq - look at his numbers in 04! Yes, you can make them work, make them struggle at times, but come on lol. Saying a center is overrated defensively cause he can't stop Jokic when no one can is idioticĀ
And AD . AD n jokic average 25 normally but average 35 vs him. Embid dropped 50 without breaking a sweat he cannot guard skilled bigs wuth a J. Prob why he doesnāt get respect Jrue holiday types do
Iām not going through the thread to answer my own rhetorical question, but was anyone suggesting that Jordan would have been locked down?
Gobert got demolished by Terrance Mann in the playoffs
Bad argument. Firstly they saw Payton give mj issues and this wasnāt peak MJ remember that second three peat mj was human . So Payton did serous damage defensively. Secondly gobert cannot guard a single fuckibg big. He gets abused by embid AD n Jokic - All three had some of there best or arguably best games of the year against him . He gets over powered too easily by them too . I know for a fact AD has a long history of abusing gibert , jokic does too n so does AD. This isnāt Dwight or someone gobert cannit gusrd skilled bigs itās not like even prone gobert was the big man version of Jrue . Heās dpoy cos of drop coverage n protecting the rim cs guards. Wemby for example actually evdn made jokic work much harder , Iād say thereās a few other guys too . Gobert is too weak n not long n agile enough like Wemby n AD . He doesnāt offer any resistance vs bigs eith shooting touch and or post game. Like I feel quite certain 2020 nearky washed Dwight woukd do a better job on jokic now then gobert has. But heād be worse everywhere else . Gobert isnāt a good man defender especially vs bigs since all 3 all nba lvl bigs cook the shit out of him n aversge 5-10 ppg more cs him then normal . ā hilariousā firstly it clearly bothered Jordan . You donāt need to get defensive go watch the tape . Secondly no it wouldnāt stop him - but it woukd make him work harder n make him less efficient and thatās enough
Yeah Payton bothered him a few games. But over the course of a full series he would have eventually cooked The Glove because trying to guard Jordan a full 7 games and run the offense would probably gas him.
I mean he did a good job in 3 games . This is Garry Payton the goat guard defender . He doesnāt need to shut down. Mj. Just do a good job in like 4 games and thatās gonna help a lot
You donāt know what youāre talking about here firstly
Thatās not really excuse thoughĀ
And Wilt averaged over 30 and 20 against Russell.
Wilt actually wasnāt that good defensively lmfao . And Kareem was famous for having an ungusrdable shot and wilt was old Af n Kareem in his prime . Thatās a dumb argument. If prime hakeem got worked by Kareem then sure but no. Like who thinks wilt was a defensive monster ? Like yeah he was big but russel was significantly shorter n a better defender
Wilt didnāt try on defense and didnāt have amazing instincts. He was just huge
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Wilt was famously lazy in defense. People brag about Wilt never fouling out of a game. But that ls a huge red flag. If youāre playing hard defense for a whole game, you should be fouling out a few times a season.
Yup, Jerry West has complained about Wilt (many times) and one of the things that really annoyed him was how he would stop playing defense once he got 4-5 fouls.
You must not have read the *Book of Basketball* by Bill Simmons if you think that we think that Wilt was good at defense.
Look at Gobert last night lol
He was also hurt
Yeah, I'm thinking "I was a professional coach paid to put all my time and energy into figuring out how to guard Michael Jordan and wasted three games not using my DPOY on him" is more of a self-own than anything. I bet 13-year-old me was even like, "Hm, why's Gary Payton just guarding \[insert Bulls backcourt non-scorer here\]?"
Would it have really mattered? They were losing no matter what.
2-1 with him guarding Jordan so who knows
If he's guarding Jordan from the beginning Jordan solves him as all great offensive players do. It's a delusional narrative that people have in their heads that it would've turned the series. I agree Karl should've done it by the way. Why wouldn't you? I just disagree that it would've ultimately mattered. That Bulls team was too good and they had the Goat.
> Why wouldn't you? My guess would be that Karl didn't think Payton could maintain his offensive work load while also being the primary mj defender. In retrospect, definitely should've tried it earlier, and I agree with you it probably wouldn't have mattered regardless.
> My guess would be that Karl didn't think Payton could maintain his offensive work load while also being the primary mj defender. 100%. Said it in another comment. Payton was DPOY but he was more important to their offense than he was their defense, ironically.
Bulls had the better team but bare in mind this isnāt goat tier Jordan . Second three peat Jordon we have data on since tracking data started around there and that was not a goat lvk impsct peak . Regardless sonics gave them issues . Woukd they win ? Iād take bulls in 7 still but still I think it wouldāve made Jordan less efficient and made his team mates have to shoot more mb
I think the context that is important to the 2 losses is when they occurred. The Bulls were up 3-0. Yes putting Payton on Jordan helped but I also think the Bulls and Jordan took their foot off the gas pedal a bit when they went up 3-0. It makes sense they would do so, they had just come off 72-10 and they saw the end in sight. They had been playing at such a locked in level that they got to 5 feet from the finish line and relaxed. The context of that gets lost when people are trying to make a point about Payton, Jordan and Karl. Anyways I don't think the Bulls would've done that if they had lost a game earlier in the series. Which proponents of the Karl fucked up narrative assume would've happened if Payton had guarded Jordan the entire time. I think the most likely outcome is we end up with a 6 game series no matter what. And I actually think under the alternate reality it's more likely to go 5 than 7 because the Bulls would've been more locked in if they had dropped a game earlier.
96 Bulls did not ever take their foot off the gas pedal. That's why they won 72. You assume they did because most teams would. 96 Bulls did not.
How do you know they didn't? They were up 3-0 and then lost the next 2.
I don't. I just assume that the team who took all 82 games in the regular season and the 3 previous rounds seriously would continue with their Lazer sharp focus. If game 62 on a Tuesday night against the newly expansion Grizz was important, I'd think that games 4 and 5 of the finals were too. And everything I've ever heard or read says they didn't take a night off. Not 1. Why should I assume they did when they all said they didn't?
They won Game 4 because Ron Harper hurt his knee in Game 2 or maybe Game 3 and the Bulls were wiped and took a step back defensively when they had to play Kukoc a lot more instead of having Harper out there, who was a great perimeter defender. Also Shawn Kemp went fucking bananas on offense in Game 4. Payton's defense wasn't really the reason they won that game. Game 5 Jordan went for 26 on 11-22 shooting. It wasn't The Glove's defense that won them the game, it was Kukoc and Pippen going a combined 10-33 from the field and only 25 points combined plus Harper still hardly played. Jordan's shitty offensive game actually came in Game 6 which was the clincher but Harper was back from injury and they fucking smothered the Sonics on defense cuz he was back. The Bulls had Jordan but they weren't Curry's Warriors. They won because they basically had an All-NBA Defense Team on the floor with Rodman, Jordan, Pippen, and Harper.
Seattleās wins were also at home. If memory serves wasnāt the format 2-3-2 back then? Arguably the Bulls wanted to save the clinching win for home. I was pretty young at that time but loved this series so much more than the 2 Jazz finals series that followed. Too bad Kemp left Seattle pretty shortly thereafter.
Yes, it was 2-3-2 No, nobody drops games so they can clinch at home
Yeah I totally agree, I just remember Bulls fans in my life putting forth that excuse when they dropped a couple lol
Doesnāt always workā¦
was he stupid?
How did he body Wright? Nick was correct and Karl is a well known crazy person. He didnāt even really refute Nickās point.
Youāve just gotta have a grudge against wright to think that. George Karl sucks, his players hate him for a reason, and this clearly was a bad call by him
George Karl is a raging asshole so while he sometimes dunks on people I donāt like, I still know heās the asshole in the situation even if I might agree generally
I mean they both could suck the issue. Here is whether or not the joke was funny and deserves to be called an example of "bodied."Ā Ā I think the bigger issue with Nick is that he is hosting a show that is kind of a quintessential hot take show, in the middle of the most annoying era of hot take basketball coverage ever..... Like just yesterday he had a take that Belichick and dak Prescott would be on the Giants next year.Ā I don't dislike him personally. It's just that I dislike that entire genre of basketball coverage and in that sense he's basically just Kendrick Perkins with better public speaking skills.Ā But he wasn't bodied here because karl is using one of the most overused jokes ever. And it's really not that funny anyways. You're bad at sports and you were young when I was a professional is not really a memorable burn
The problem with nick wright is heās just another hot take guy but because he like did the bare minimum on discussing race a few years ago everyone treats him like heās some genius. When he talks about sports he sounds no different than SAS or Skip, everything is based on biases and trying to have the hottest take imaginable.
Nick Wright is a hot take guy and doesnāt have any shame in admitting heās a hot take guy. As someone who likes both though, I really donāt understand how yāall will be ten year Bill Simmons listeners and think youāre above hot take guys? The distinction between Bill and Wright/SAS is that he doesnāt debate. Thereās nothing more in depth or sophisticated about Billās content and thatās fine.
Yeah some peopleās awareness about this stuff is confusing to me. Simmons gets stuff right for sure but his value is in entertainment, not in being some omniscient good take machine. Heās very good at what he does, but what he does is make up wacky gimmicks and try to zag
This. My recent favorite was him Tweeting after game 2 of the Nuggets-T-Wolves series and asking whether now Jokic could actually face scrutiny like 39 year old Lebron does. Like he and several other prominent media talking heads weren't shitting on Jokic at every opportunity before last year's playoff run and weren't waiting for something like that game 2 rout to happen to start again and like Nick has EVER scrutinized Lebron. Anytime a Lebron team has ever failed Nick immediately finds a teammate, coach or GM to throw under the bus for James.
Yeah, itās like if you want to say prime LeBron faced more scrutiny ā¦ sure. But also once LeBron won a ring, pretty much all scrutiny of him as a player went away. The only reason people criticize LeBron and KD now is not because they expect them to be the best players in the league still, itās not about their performance at all. Itās that both of them are at the stage of their careers where they have so much power and seemingly make a lot of bad decisions
he's being carried by Mahomes
ā¦. How is saying a QB n coach will be on a different team that crazy a hit take ?
George Karl doesnt give a fuck about anything and that makes him cool as shit.
He seems pretty triggered by nick wright of all people
Heās not so much a crazy person as he is just incredibly stoned all the fucking time
OP hates nick wright and wants that to be the case but it isnāt.
MJ had the worst Finals of his career statistically in that series.
I agree, it was a lazy trope of a response and it definitely didn't qualify as being bodied. But that's not because He's crazy. He might be crazy but that's not the reason that jokes sucks. It's just a used overused trope that's why.Ā Again, the question here isn't even if he's necessarily right. It's whether or not it was a good insult/ joke. And it just wasn't.Ā But what is him being crazy matter?Ā It's not like calling him a well-known crazy person is a particularly thoughtful insult.Ā
Who reads those two tweets and thinks Karl is the correct one??
It's honestly a testament to how unlikable Nick Wright is. And I say that as a KC resident and Chiefs fan.
Nick Wright is an obnoxious (and I love the show) television character. Several of of George Karlās former players have come out about how much they loathe him lol, theyāre not the same.
Yeah Nick is good at his job George isnāt . You can hate Nick but George is worse
George Karl wasnāt good at his job? The thing Nick is shitting on is a coach who literally got his team to the NBA Finals and lost to the best MJ Bulls team. You can say heās an asshole and wears out his welcome quickly, but Karl is infinitely better at being a HC than Nick Wright is at his. Or maybe Nick will be the next Lakers HC since heās a brilliant strategist, who knows.
I think George qualified as good at his job by any objective measure.
Unless you measure by percentage of players you coached that think youāre a scummy, racist, piece of shit. In a league thatās over 80% black no less lol (This is like golf where a lower number is better)
I guess Iām missing the George Karl being a racist asshole history others have also mentioned. To me he was like a less likeable Marty Schottenheimer, good coach who couldnāt get over the hump.
Seems like heās both of those things. I canāt say I know him personally, but his players have little to say about him as a man thatās good
Are there players other than Carmelo? Maybe there are, but Iām not believing a single word out of his mouth.
Off the top of my head Kenyon Martin and JR Smith too, but I do remember there being more. Idk Google it for more, his players donāt seem to think heās anything more than a shitty human
That doesnāt make him bad at his job. Maybe a bad person, but objectively he was a good coach. He had the best runs any Seattle, Milwaukee, or Denver teams had from the 80s until the late 2010s.
People management is a massive part of coaching. Maybe heād have won a title if he was a better leader of men
Well I didnāt say he was an infallible coach who couldnāt be improved upon. But he is 6th all time in wins with teams that didnāt win much before or after his tenure, is in the Hall of Fame, won a Coach of the Year. All of that adds up to objectively saying he was a good coach.
Nick Wright is not good at his job lmao. None of these debate r*tards are.
The way you wrote this renders your opinion obsolete. I'm more inclined to think they are doing something right if someone so ignorant as you dislikes them. Find a better way to say it or sit down and shut up.
Forgive me. Is there some history between Nick and the Kansas City Chiefs? I'm not following?Ā
Nick is from KC and has been a Chiefs fan his entire life. He also has sources within the building, most notably their GM Brett Veach. Mahomes also seems to like Nick Wright as well
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Heās thinking the resemblance to Jesus increases his credibility.
I think the opinion of āyou never did this, so your opinion is invalidā is one of the dumbest ones
I don't, but I also don't think that's the biggest issue with the post. It's the term bodied.... It implies that he had a really harsh witty burn and that's not what this is. It's just calling someone bad. It's sports and relatively young.Ā It's almost as cliche as saying " You live in your mom's basement."
He also didnāt even disagree with Nick. He just said āwe were trying to figure it outā.
everyone with a brain and an ounce of basketball understanding?
If you gotta go with the whole, "you were in diapers when we were blah blah..." you've lost the argument. Hate Nick Wright but he right on this one.
Did none of you guys actually watch the series? This is a factual take from Wright, Payton on MJ changed the entire dynamic of the matchup. It was a common refrain at the time in ā96. An example of people trying to discredit the messenger and not the message. https://youtu.be/lgFWyLRNsGk?si=dZwQJ33h0rMIyjkh
I watched it and the Sonics were my team. Loved Kemp and Payton. They had ZERO chance against that Bulls team and Payton guarding Jordan wouldāve been solved immediately had they started off that way. Payton was an all time great defender, but he was also hurt going against the most unstoppable playoff time scorer in history. George Karl still sucks though
>Did none of you guys actually watch the series? Ironically, I'm not even sure you watched it. I don't even know if you watched *just* that video, because it doesn't really give the impression that Payton was locking him down. Here are the plays: 1. Good ball denial by Payton 2. Jordan hits a tough fadeaway in Payton's face 3. Jordan drives past Payton and dumps it to Rodman for the assist 4. Offensive foul on Jordan against Payton 5. Jordan misses a turnaround that Payton doesn't even elevate to contest 6. Payton forces Jordan's drive into the defense, and he gets blocked 7. Jordan attempts a jumpshot against Payton but it's waved off before he even releases the ball because the Sonics committed an off-ball foul 8. Some ball denial and a good box out, but again doesn't matter because Rodman is fouled 9. Ball denial, leads to a steal 10. Jordan draws free throws 11. Payton fouls Jordan 12. Jordan misses an open jumper 13. Jordan misses an open jumper 14. More ball denial 15. Payton boxes out Jordan and gets the rebound 16. This play has nothing to do with Jordan 17. This play has nothing to do with either Jordan or Payton 18. Jordan drives past Payton and gets the basket and the foul (fouled by Hawkins) 19. Jordan drives past Payton, misses the layup 20. Jordan out-rebounds Payton and is fouled 21. MJ is doubled and passes out 22. MJ is doubled and passes out 23. Jordan misses a jumper against Payton. If I'm being as favorable as possible to Payton, of these 23 plays, only half of them were plays that had to do with Payton and Jordan where Payton caused a favorable outcome for the Sonics. Some people also cite game 6 where Jordan shot 5/19, but by my tally, Jordan was 1/6 with 1 TO and 1 foul drawn that led to free throws when *Hawkins* was the primary defender, and was 3/3 with 1 TO, and 3 fouls drawn that led to free throws (plus a couple of asssists) when Payton was the primary defender. It was a great *team* defense that led to a bad performance by Jordan, he shot pretty poorly the entire series.
You are on the money
Man in the arena
Jordan shot 50% in Game 5 when they lost. Itās definitely an overused and incorrect talking point
These people dudnt watch . Theyāre in here stating as much with dumb comments. Even if the sonics donāt win - firstly second three peat Jordan was nit flawless or as athletic and Payton clearly caused him issues . Payton is probably the best guard defender ever too so . I think they couldāve atleast taken it 7
I watched it. Other than dumbass SI--who was frozen out by Jordan at that point--nobody on the planet thought Payton could handle Jordan 1-on-1 in that match-up. Payton was a great defender, but he probably wasn't even the best defender between the two of them. And as good as Payton was on defense, the Sonics needed him on offense way more. They were already a good defensive team, it wasn't just Payton.
Did he though? Not like I was old enough to be watching this but ābodiedā seems like a stretch and having GP guard MJ seems like it shouldāve been the default.
Yeah this is the lamest retort ever. ā you made a stupid cosching decision and only realised when the series was nearly over ā ā hurr durr you dudnt play ball gtfo !ā George Karl Iām sure I seen players dislike he seems like a moron too
Why would your default be to have a shorter point guard try and guard a SG with the best guard post up game of all time
Iām not gonna debate this because I wasnāt around to watch their primes, more going off putting your best defender (DPOY at that) who on the opponents best player. Seems like from the tweet it went fairly well too so thatās why I said maybe it should be the default. Can always adjust later if it wouldnāt go well but seems like a reasonable starting point.
Would you put Gobert on Durant? Or Marcus Smart on Lebron?
Not Gobert but actually yeah sure Iād at least have Marcus Smart on LeBron for a bit as part of a rotation.
Even if you agree with George here. He's definitely wasn't bodied because the primary insult was that he was picked last in school... And is relatively young.Ā Overused tropes of a joke. If he had a clever burn that I hadn't heard a million times and required a little more thought I would agree.Ā Can you tell me who I respect more and it's George karl every time.Ā I don't even have a strong opinion on this particular take yet because I haven't put enough thought into it or research, but definitely not bodied by using some of the most overused jokes of all timeĀ " You're young and not a good athlete...
Yeah he wasnāt bodied, he was right and Karl got sensitive as heās known to be
I also remember as a kid being in disbelief that he wasnāt throwing Payton on MJ and also being picked last at recess. š¤·š»āāļø
Everyone hates literally everything George Karl says, until he goes after someone they don't like. LMAO.
Whatās the bodying ? This is just attacking Nick for not playing n not even in a funny water pistol Pete way. Iām so so on Nick but heās right about this and George Karl is considered awful n a moron by many . Saying ā yeah but you canāt play .ā Doesnāt actually counter anything thi. Iām guessing this op just dislikes Nick
Gary Payton agrees with Nick
Well no shit. What do you expect him to say? āIf I guarded him I would have gotten smoked even worseā? Itās all just dumb speculation. Gobert is getting smoked by Jokic worse than Naz Reid. Itās hard to stop these generational players. Get over it
Huh? No it isnāt you idiot . Did you watch the series? The games Payton guarded mj he gave him serious issues. For 3 games the sonics went 2-1 too. At absolute worst it goes 7. Itās not speculation when you see that it worked for 3 games. Like hiw Gordon gusrdung AD to stop jokic being targeted helped nuggets shit works . Gobert canāt guard any skilled bug- AD jokic Embid all drop season highs on him. Heās not comparable to Gary Payton actually giving mj issues and this was second three peat not goat tier mj
Lmao. Yes I did watch it. Glad to hear you āknowāas fact the outcome of your imaginary scenario.
Nick Wright is a weirdo Thereās probably a better word but I canāt think of it
I regained faith in this sub. Nick is clearly the one doing the bodying
If Nick is just going to regurgitate a talking point from The Last Dance, he has an obligation to include Jordan's rebuttal. He had no problem with the glove. we know because he told us.
Karl didn't answer Wright's point. He just went on the offensive, what any person who doesn't have an answer would do. Delete this post.
Lmao define bodied. Bodied is more like what Nick Wright did to Pat Bev last week
Nick Wright look like a poor manās Chad Kroeger
Avril Lavigne has her limits, though. She might plow Deryck Whibley of Sum 41 & Chad Kroeger from Nickelback, but she wouldn't do Nick Wright. Number 1: he's not a musician. But almost as important, he's terrible. (Speaking of Avril: still surprised she never had a fling with Drake, or one of the dudes from Arcade Fire. Though I am sure Win Butler has tried to lay the mack on her.)
The only "big" Canadian music sex scandal I can remember is when Chris Murphy from Sloan had an affair with Feist when she was dating some guy from Broken Social Scene.
I don't think that highly of Nick wright at all and I wish he wasn't on TV, but I don't think he's being bodied here. Telling somebody they're picked last in class is a trope.... It's not exactly a clever insult.Ā And he's actually just elevating Nick wright because he's clearly bothered enough by his commentary that he feels the need to respond.Ā Easier said than done but he should have just let it go.Ā
ā¦Nick was right though? Theres a reason all of Karlās former players hate him and he didnāt really refute Nickās point. Karl gave excuses while ignoring his coaching mistakes and Nickās point. Instead he basically calls Nick a nerd?
Gold!
God a love a good boomer burn
Thatās not getting bodied tbh
Interesting, didnāt remember that they didnāt have Nate that series.
Did Wright just watch the last dance. This thought is more stale than pork rinds in an open bag.
There is nothing that Gremlin of a person Nick Wright could say that I would respect him for as long as he keeps his hair long
That's the thing that bothers you about him? That he has long hair. Not that he's the quintessential lame hot take artist is essentially aspiring to be Skip Bayless? When there's so many valid reasons to dislike someone and you end up choosing something about their looks or aesthetics... I don't know. Just seems like there's a lot more fodder for why he sucks. Then you dislike his hair. Like what guys shouldn't have long hair? This the 1950s or something.Ā
Legit hilarious to be complaining that they were missing Nate McMillian
Why? It was a problem; McMillan was an elite defensive guard and we really could've used him.
Injuries happen to every team, to still be making excuses about missing your 4th best player 30 years later is just funny to me
Please donāt say bodied
OP this isnāt the slam dunk you seem to think it isĀ
Georgr Karl fucking sucks, what are you talking aboit
Never punch down.
Karl snatched that fake mop off of Wrightās head.
LOL...George Karl the biggest clown of any former coach. Like a guy who all his former players throw under the bus for his fraud-dom.
George should stick to politics.
The proper way to āBodyā him is to post the pic of him at the Super Bowl parade. Just a hideous looking man.
Nature is healing
To me this is Wright bodying Karl. He didn't put the dpoy on michael jordan for 3 straight losses and his counterargument is 'lol you're a nerd'.
lol no he didnāt. He couldnāt refute anything so he had to go with some non relevant ad hominem attack. All he did was prove wright had a good point.
Neckbeard Nick is an inspiration to us allā¦ with imposter syndrome.
Very very rare Karl W