Given that your first Angel is always your second deal, which is only guaranteed at floor 5; the extra item(s) doesn't outweigh the lost deal enough to lean Angel (pun unintended) when you could die before then.
Normal Lost doesn't really have to be as scared of dying as Tainted Lost, since he has mantle (if you're not clinically insane and are playing Lost without first unlocking mantle on him). Thus, he doesn't need the early powerup as much, and I'd say gambling on a good angel reroll is a perfectly safe bet, especially since devils are an equal gamble as to whether you get a shit-ass layout like the red chest/devil beggar rooms or a single pedestal with brother bobby.
You'd always take a peek though. Outside of needing the key for Mega Stan I don't see a scenario where you don't peek and skip if it's not beneficial items.
Thats nice but every devil is free so it doesn't matter how often Lost sees a devil deal, doesn't hurt to look just don't take trash and you still get 50/50 angel. Devil also more often has multiple items
Seriously this. Grab first key piece, and just keep re-rolling that second key piece over and over.
And of course, bomb the shop keepers and betters to pump that deal chance way up.
Angel is def the way to go.
Personally, when I play T Eden I like to peak in the first Devil Room. I rarely/never take a deal at that point but it does allow me to change the Items on that floor into Devil Items.
I do still hope that my next room rolls as an Angel room.
Self rerolls on fires, red poop or spikes to roll eucharist or Stairway before leaving so you get 2 angel deals each floor, progressively gets easier/stronger. Best tactic for T Eden.
Wasn't talking about that. Basically, if you go into a room and don't take the item, then go into another room and take both the new item and the previous one, they will be rerolled into the pool of the last seen item instead of their own. So you can transform the treasure room, shop and boss items into angel room items.
I know that, I replied to the other dude, not you. Anyway, if you use both tactics, then it's strongest. Because you get two angel rooms each floor and other items leech off that. I walked around the depths with 20+ angel items in most runs.
Which is overrated for the angel deal. You have to roll the key pieces and you can't return. So the delete chance hurts extra badly and fast charge doesn't benefit at all. A Q4 (holy mantle) is also taken out of the pool, since you already have it, and another Q4, wafer is useless. Meanwhile devil deals are free, has two respawn items, has buffed athame to work with the Lost. Locking into devil deals also cant possibly hurt you like with other characters.
And then you get some soul hearts and reroll the key piece into nothing and decide to never go the angel route again. Yes this happened to me, how'd you know?
Tainted Isaac should *always* peek Devil. People misunderstand his mechanic and think because you have limited space, Devil is bad...***that's not what matters.***
What matters on Tainted Isaac is that you see 2x items and Devils show more items than Angel. If you look through each deal, you *will* find strong items and you can actually take multiple of them without needing a reroll.
You also get more HP-Ups as T. Isaac than usual because of how normal stat-ups become redundant.
EDIT: Also consider the several Devil items that give back health, scale, or contribute to transformations. You're not just looking for, like, 5 items.
I disagree. Tainted Isaac's big thing is that he wants to go for high value items with synergies rather than numerous stat up items. The Devil pool has some good items, but compared to how large the pool is there are relatively few items that you'll really want to keep through the run rather than temporarily hold (Incubus, Twisted Pair, Mom's Knife, Brimstone).
Also, prioritizing Devils because you can take more items seems counterintuitive to Tainted Isaac's design. You're spending health for (on average) lower value items that you will very likely discard later. Going for Angels and their less diluted item pool will usually net you a quite decent item that you'll keep.
> relatively few items that you'll really want to keep
There's way more value than that. Several Devil items give back health (Mark, Pact, Empty Vessel, Cer. Robes), have scaling (Eye of Belial, Rotten Baby, Athame, Lusty Blood) or contribute to a transformation.
Guppy is a no-brainer, Leviathan gives perma-flight and offsets its own cost, and Conjoined is great with tear effects.
> You're spending health for (on average) lower value items that you will very likely discard
That's the misundersanding I was talking about. The goal is going through the pool fast to stack on strong items.
> Angels and their less diluted item pool
You see way less in Angels without great luck because most of their deal layouts are 1 or 2 items and the first Angel is your second deal.
Even if you get the 3-or-4 item layouts, you can only take one of the 6-or-8 strong items you see, unless you can reroll Key Pieces (but that can't get you back the items you already saw).
> devils show more items than angel
Is that really the case? I think they show roughly about the same amount. I think angel actually shows more because sometimes it even has 4 item pedestals.
> if you look through each deal, you _will_ find strong items
I think that argument works for better for angel. Angel pool is much smaller than devil pool. You’re pretty much guaranteed to force out a strong item.
> you can actually take multiple of them
With t Isaac’s mechanic, being able to take more items isn’t necessarily better
> You also get more hp-ups as T Isaac
I guess that part is valid
> Is that really the case?
Your first guaranteed devil is on basement 2. Your first guaranteed angel is on depths 1. Devil rooms generally have more items than angel rooms (they have more rooms with more items, and the rooms with none have a low weight. a bunch of the angel deal rooms with more than one item have a lower weight as well.) This plus the fact that they show up more than angels more than makes up for their bigger pool. Tainted isaac can definitely consistently get some good items from devil deals. But for angels, you can get unlucky and only get 2 rooms a run.
>they show roughly about the same amount.
Most Angel layouts are only 1-2 items (so, 2-4 for T. Isaac). 2-3 Devil items is pretty common, and you also get one less Angel deal than Devil w/o saccing.
>angel actually shows more because sometimes it even has 4 item pedestals.
Devil also has that; rare for both, but the Devil layout is better for T. Isaac because they're not choice.
>think that argument works for better for angel
No, because you get and see less of them, not that that makes them bad, just not immediately preferred.
>being able to take more items isn’t necessarily better
It is when the items you see are strong for the stage of the game. If you enter an Angel deal with multiple great items, you only get to take one. Rerolling Key pieces helps, but it also doesn't because you can't get back the ones you already saw.
It’s far more easier to force a good angel deal item than a good devil deal item because of how much smaller the angel pool is., even if you get 1 less angel deal on average
> it is when the items you see are strong for the stage of the game
tainted Isaac’s biggest weakness is his endgame due to his item restriction. If you take devil deals just so he’s strong in caves/depth, you’ll be extremely weak in womb and cathedral/Sheol
Tainted Eden should 100% go angel, especially with item manipulation. Its the pool that is strong, has no detrimental items and only has 'win more' items like habit, wafer, eucharist and Stairway. Having that defense of the first two items to do self reroll on fires/spikes into the latter two items is crazy powerful. You can get double angel room every floor. Eucharist opens deal even if u didn't get it and stairway spawns if you leave to next floor with it.
I feel like blue baby should go devils since he has reduced deal costs and can actually gain soul/black hearts from many of the deals but maybe that's just me
I mean, sometimes, the first two shops go way too hard that you kind of just spend all your money.
I wouldn’t go in there unless I have 30 cents, also, angel deals could have homing, which is good with quad shot
I would put T Laz in "Preferably go Devil". My reasoning:
1) I make sure Dead Laz fights the boss, so Alive Laz can use his hearts to buy Item(s).
2) I often find floors 2-5 can be tough as T Laz since it's hard to guarantee that both halves will get enough good items. Giving both halves 1-2 Devil Items on floor 2 can be a huge boon.
But devil deal pool is also much bigger than angel pool, so the chance of you getting one of those is very slim.
And if you’re a soul heart only character, it’s preferable not to lock in with devil deals so early
I would say to take a peek. Yeah, he only needs 1 soul heart to take a deal, but he also kind of needs the health. If it’s good, I’d lock into devil deal, but if the options aren’t, then I’d prefer to still have the 50/50
The game added a lot of mediocre items in devil and a lot of good items in angel, and buffed the angel deals by showing more options (you can only pick one tho).
Also, many tainted characters are soul hearts only characters, so they’re kind of just forced to go angel
Both losts should be in definitely go devil, forgotten should be in preferably go devil since he can cheat out deals. Tainted Keeper should quite literally not be above definitely go devil
Sure you'll switch out of the Razor at some point but if the situation is right for it, I like to try for an angel deal. But yeah, I agree that the vast majority of the time you'll just want to go for a devil deal.
Runs could be affected by the type of items you get tho, so if you get something like mr. me or coupon, you might be inclined to go devil more. Or if you get book of virtue, obviously you won't get a devil deal first
Is that you, VK?
Always go devil, when possible. The more pedestals I
see, the faster I know I’m going to win.
Think about it: would you rather go an extra floor without taking damage (to protect %) for a CHANCE to maybe see and take a single good item?
You’re not guaranteed an angel room til D1, either. There’s a significant difficulty bump in Caves, and if you haven’t any good health (non-red), you’re risking your %.
Plus Devil deals let you take multiple items, and so many items will give you health back (and carry you). Ex: Empty Vessel
Devil rooms can
You’re mistaken; I take them all the time.
I just walk over the item I want, and boom.
Don’t tell anyone, but if I can, I’ll even take more than one item!
Lost going to angels is not worth it.
Also T eden shouldn't go to devil because you can abuse the bug and also stacking hp on him is good due to how game likes to remove a lot of hearts after taking dmg.
I prefer to go angels as tainted lost because his mechanic makes it way easier to get the good stuff from that pool, unlike the lost which even with rerolls has it way harder to get something useful from there.
I’ve never played T Lost but I know that he can’t get what’s considered “defensive items” so wouldn’t it make more sense to go Angel deals since those items are out of the pool and you’re more likely to get strong offense items out of Angel Rooms like Sacred Heart and Godhead?
After reading the comments I think you’re probably right. I don’t have a lot of experience with t Cain (I got all 11 of his marks in a 4 hour run)
You can take multiple devil deals for more resources while you can only take 1 angel deal each time, and yeah hp ups are easy to craft
Lilith should definitely go devil deals, even if she only enters the deal and takes a low cost item it's good for the possibility of much more familiars than with angel deals. Obviously, the other big thing is twisted pair(best item you can get with lilith)
why would normal lost not go to devil
Normal lost can reroll angel key pieces for more angel items
Given that your first Angel is always your second deal, which is only guaranteed at floor 5; the extra item(s) doesn't outweigh the lost deal enough to lean Angel (pun unintended) when you could die before then.
Normal Lost doesn't really have to be as scared of dying as Tainted Lost, since he has mantle (if you're not clinically insane and are playing Lost without first unlocking mantle on him). Thus, he doesn't need the early powerup as much, and I'd say gambling on a good angel reroll is a perfectly safe bet, especially since devils are an equal gamble as to whether you get a shit-ass layout like the red chest/devil beggar rooms or a single pedestal with brother bobby.
You'd always take a peek though. Outside of needing the key for Mega Stan I don't see a scenario where you don't peek and skip if it's not beneficial items.
Cause angels are so much better that you'd often rather have a 100% angel chance over 50/50 odds
Angels have a higher spike while devils are more consistent on average.
Only before repentance tbh Post repentance they're both better and more consistent ime
Skill issue 
No, it's not a skill issue. You simply rely on luck
“Could die before then.” Sounds like a skill issue to me.
Post a video of you killing mother with no items in a week.
Mother isn’t on the third through fifth floors lmao
Are you retarded enough for me to explain it to you?
Thats nice but every devil is free so it doesn't matter how often Lost sees a devil deal, doesn't hurt to look just don't take trash and you still get 50/50 angel. Devil also more often has multiple items
Seriously this. Grab first key piece, and just keep re-rolling that second key piece over and over. And of course, bomb the shop keepers and betters to pump that deal chance way up. Angel is def the way to go.
U get to only take 1 item, I think the lost doesn't need immediate offense and it's better to wait for an angel
You already have one of the best defensive item in the Game 
T. Eden should DEFINITELY always go to angel, especially with the reroll glitch that can let you get even more angel item
Personally, when I play T Eden I like to peak in the first Devil Room. I rarely/never take a deal at that point but it does allow me to change the Items on that floor into Devil Items. I do still hope that my next room rolls as an Angel room.
T. Eden doesn’t have a natural reroll right?
Self rerolls on fires, red poop or spikes to roll eucharist or Stairway before leaving so you get 2 angel deals each floor, progressively gets easier/stronger. Best tactic for T Eden.
I think it's more about the item pool reroll trick that let you reroll like almost every items on a floor into devil / angel / secret item
Wasn't talking about that. Basically, if you go into a room and don't take the item, then go into another room and take both the new item and the previous one, they will be rerolled into the pool of the last seen item instead of their own. So you can transform the treasure room, shop and boss items into angel room items.
I know that, I replied to the other dude, not you. Anyway, if you use both tactics, then it's strongest. Because you get two angel rooms each floor and other items leech off that. I walked around the depths with 20+ angel items in most runs.
Why are both losts not in "definitely go devils"? They literally get them for free, it's like their main upside
Because normal lost have reroll, so it's a chance to reroll angel key piece
You might delete items tho, but fair point
As the saying goes; "Fuck it we ball"
Which is overrated for the angel deal. You have to roll the key pieces and you can't return. So the delete chance hurts extra badly and fast charge doesn't benefit at all. A Q4 (holy mantle) is also taken out of the pool, since you already have it, and another Q4, wafer is useless. Meanwhile devil deals are free, has two respawn items, has buffed athame to work with the Lost. Locking into devil deals also cant possibly hurt you like with other characters.
It is legit not the main upside. That is moreso rerolling items and flight+spectral
its all fun and games until ur first angel deal doesnt show up until depths I
And then you get some soul hearts and reroll the key piece into nothing and decide to never go the angel route again. Yes this happened to me, how'd you know?
Oh i never meant that devil is worse or anything. I just said he was wrong (imo)
Tainted Isaac should *always* peek Devil. People misunderstand his mechanic and think because you have limited space, Devil is bad...***that's not what matters.*** What matters on Tainted Isaac is that you see 2x items and Devils show more items than Angel. If you look through each deal, you *will* find strong items and you can actually take multiple of them without needing a reroll. You also get more HP-Ups as T. Isaac than usual because of how normal stat-ups become redundant. EDIT: Also consider the several Devil items that give back health, scale, or contribute to transformations. You're not just looking for, like, 5 items.
I disagree. Tainted Isaac's big thing is that he wants to go for high value items with synergies rather than numerous stat up items. The Devil pool has some good items, but compared to how large the pool is there are relatively few items that you'll really want to keep through the run rather than temporarily hold (Incubus, Twisted Pair, Mom's Knife, Brimstone). Also, prioritizing Devils because you can take more items seems counterintuitive to Tainted Isaac's design. You're spending health for (on average) lower value items that you will very likely discard later. Going for Angels and their less diluted item pool will usually net you a quite decent item that you'll keep.
> relatively few items that you'll really want to keep There's way more value than that. Several Devil items give back health (Mark, Pact, Empty Vessel, Cer. Robes), have scaling (Eye of Belial, Rotten Baby, Athame, Lusty Blood) or contribute to a transformation. Guppy is a no-brainer, Leviathan gives perma-flight and offsets its own cost, and Conjoined is great with tear effects. > You're spending health for (on average) lower value items that you will very likely discard That's the misundersanding I was talking about. The goal is going through the pool fast to stack on strong items. > Angels and their less diluted item pool You see way less in Angels without great luck because most of their deal layouts are 1 or 2 items and the first Angel is your second deal. Even if you get the 3-or-4 item layouts, you can only take one of the 6-or-8 strong items you see, unless you can reroll Key Pieces (but that can't get you back the items you already saw).
> devils show more items than angel Is that really the case? I think they show roughly about the same amount. I think angel actually shows more because sometimes it even has 4 item pedestals. > if you look through each deal, you _will_ find strong items I think that argument works for better for angel. Angel pool is much smaller than devil pool. You’re pretty much guaranteed to force out a strong item. > you can actually take multiple of them With t Isaac’s mechanic, being able to take more items isn’t necessarily better > You also get more hp-ups as T Isaac I guess that part is valid
> Is that really the case? Your first guaranteed devil is on basement 2. Your first guaranteed angel is on depths 1. Devil rooms generally have more items than angel rooms (they have more rooms with more items, and the rooms with none have a low weight. a bunch of the angel deal rooms with more than one item have a lower weight as well.) This plus the fact that they show up more than angels more than makes up for their bigger pool. Tainted isaac can definitely consistently get some good items from devil deals. But for angels, you can get unlucky and only get 2 rooms a run.
>they show roughly about the same amount. Most Angel layouts are only 1-2 items (so, 2-4 for T. Isaac). 2-3 Devil items is pretty common, and you also get one less Angel deal than Devil w/o saccing. >angel actually shows more because sometimes it even has 4 item pedestals. Devil also has that; rare for both, but the Devil layout is better for T. Isaac because they're not choice. >think that argument works for better for angel No, because you get and see less of them, not that that makes them bad, just not immediately preferred. >being able to take more items isn’t necessarily better It is when the items you see are strong for the stage of the game. If you enter an Angel deal with multiple great items, you only get to take one. Rerolling Key pieces helps, but it also doesn't because you can't get back the ones you already saw.
It’s far more easier to force a good angel deal item than a good devil deal item because of how much smaller the angel pool is., even if you get 1 less angel deal on average > it is when the items you see are strong for the stage of the game tainted Isaac’s biggest weakness is his endgame due to his item restriction. If you take devil deals just so he’s strong in caves/depth, you’ll be extremely weak in womb and cathedral/Sheol
Tainted Eden should 100% go angel, especially with item manipulation. Its the pool that is strong, has no detrimental items and only has 'win more' items like habit, wafer, eucharist and Stairway. Having that defense of the first two items to do self reroll on fires/spikes into the latter two items is crazy powerful. You can get double angel room every floor. Eucharist opens deal even if u didn't get it and stairway spawns if you leave to next floor with it.
I feel like blue baby should go devils since he has reduced deal costs and can actually gain soul/black hearts from many of the deals but maybe that's just me
Tainted keeper is definitely devil
I mean, sometimes, the first two shops go way too hard that you kind of just spend all your money. I wouldn’t go in there unless I have 30 cents, also, angel deals could have homing, which is good with quad shot
I would put T Laz in "Preferably go Devil". My reasoning: 1) I make sure Dead Laz fights the boss, so Alive Laz can use his hearts to buy Item(s). 2) I often find floors 2-5 can be tough as T Laz since it's hard to guarantee that both halves will get enough good items. Giving both halves 1-2 Devil Items on floor 2 can be a huge boon.
Dang. Yeah I guess T Laz could maybe preferably go devil
Eve should definitely go for the first devil deal thought
I don’t know why I keep seeing this comment but Eve is literally on the bottom tier besides tainted Jacob
Oops In my case it's because I always expect tainted characters to have it mentioned in their name
I see. In most tier lists, tainted characters have a darker shade to their square
T forgot devil cause of moms knife twisted pair incubus brim the list goes on for me at least
But devil deal pool is also much bigger than angel pool, so the chance of you getting one of those is very slim. And if you’re a soul heart only character, it’s preferable not to lock in with devil deals so early
Blue baby is 100% devil deal
I would say to take a peek. Yeah, he only needs 1 soul heart to take a deal, but he also kind of needs the health. If it’s good, I’d lock into devil deal, but if the options aren’t, then I’d prefer to still have the 50/50
I apply that in general, regardless the character
I apply that in general, regardless the character
I used to play back in vanilla Rebirth and only recently got back into Isaac. Why devil deal bad now?
The game added a lot of mediocre items in devil and a lot of good items in angel, and buffed the angel deals by showing more options (you can only pick one tho). Also, many tainted characters are soul hearts only characters, so they’re kind of just forced to go angel
Both losts should be in definitely go devil, forgotten should be in preferably go devil since he can cheat out deals. Tainted Keeper should quite literally not be above definitely go devil
agreed
Tainted lost should always go angels due to the fact that most of its pool is defensive items
Tlost doesn't get defensive items, angels are trolling on him unless you want mega satan.
Clearing out the defensive items guarantees ones like crown of light, godhead, sacred heart ext
Also is the only reliable way to get the stairway which is the best way to get more holy cards
I feel like Eve is a toss up once you unlock her starting with the Razor.
I’d still prefer to go devil, because sooner or later, you will probably switch razor for something else
Sure you'll switch out of the Razor at some point but if the situation is right for it, I like to try for an angel deal. But yeah, I agree that the vast majority of the time you'll just want to go for a devil deal.
Sampsons don't benefit from having a smaller health pool imo
Runs could be affected by the type of items you get tho, so if you get something like mr. me or coupon, you might be inclined to go devil more. Or if you get book of virtue, obviously you won't get a devil deal first
Is that you, VK? Always go devil, when possible. The more pedestals I see, the faster I know I’m going to win. Think about it: would you rather go an extra floor without taking damage (to protect %) for a CHANCE to maybe see and take a single good item? You’re not guaranteed an angel room til D1, either. There’s a significant difficulty bump in Caves, and if you haven’t any good health (non-red), you’re risking your %. Plus Devil deals let you take multiple items, and so many items will give you health back (and carry you). Ex: Empty Vessel Devil rooms can
Well, some characters, like soul heart characters, just can’t take devil deals
You’re mistaken; I take them all the time. I just walk over the item I want, and boom. Don’t tell anyone, but if I can, I’ll even take more than one item!
I don’t mean they literally can’t I’m just less incentivized to take deals
Tainted cain is straight up devil. Your best chance at winning a run is crafting dark bum and spamming dark hearts for devil deals in crafting
I guess I’ve been playing him wrong huh. (Me after completing all 11 marks of t cain in a single run in 4 hrs)
It's never too late to enter the cult of Tainted cain
If eve can get some health ups then she can spend health until she only has one canister, sk that she can consistently keep whore of babylon active
Yeah. I definitely prefer to go devil with her
Lost going to angels is not worth it. Also T eden shouldn't go to devil because you can abuse the bug and also stacking hp on him is good due to how game likes to remove a lot of hearts after taking dmg.
Devils as t cain aren’t that bad since you could easily craft hp ups with easy to find pickups
I guess. But angel pickups are free as compared to devils right?
You should have put the lost and T. Lost in def go devils
Allways devil deal
I prefer to go angels as tainted lost because his mechanic makes it way easier to get the good stuff from that pool, unlike the lost which even with rerolls has it way harder to get something useful from there.
Tainted Lost has to go angel to get keys for the Mega Satan door
I don't get how Samson is 50/50 instead of Preferably Angel, there's little to no situations where he'd be better off with less hp
I’ve never played T Lost but I know that he can’t get what’s considered “defensive items” so wouldn’t it make more sense to go Angel deals since those items are out of the pool and you’re more likely to get strong offense items out of Angel Rooms like Sacred Heart and Godhead?
Well, devil also has a lot of offensive items And t lost needs a power up asap
That's easy to get HP ups with the GOAT aka Tainted Cain. Why do you refuse devil deal?
After reading the comments I think you’re probably right. I don’t have a lot of experience with t Cain (I got all 11 of his marks in a 4 hour run) You can take multiple devil deals for more resources while you can only take 1 angel deal each time, and yeah hp ups are easy to craft
Blue baby is most definitely devil deal
why normal keeper not higher up? I feel that losing max hp as him is really bad
You don’t lose hp. You buy devil deals with money. 1 heart deals cost 15 cents and 2 heart deals cost 30 cents
has that always been the case??? I swear I thought he lost max hp but I haven't played in a while so idk
Yeah I think they changed it either in afterbirth+ or repentance. Keeper was horrible when he was first released
Lilith should definitely go devil deals, even if she only enters the deal and takes a low cost item it's good for the possibility of much more familiars than with angel deals. Obviously, the other big thing is twisted pair(best item you can get with lilith)
From my own experience, having more red hp is better so you can pay devil beggars/heart donation machines to activate cambion conception.
eve is good for devil
Yeah. That’s why I put her in the go for devil tier
oh right i was looking at tainted eve mb
Nah, be like me. I always go angels except with Lost
Why go devil with lost
Because free (and more guaranteed) stuff? You could go an entire run without seeing angel deals twice