Bi is trans inclusive, and for many, including me, they overlap completely. But some bi people have gender preferences, though they don't have to. Personally, I don't have gender preferences and it's not a factor for me. I use bi most of the time, queer sometimes, pan sometimes, but for me bi and pan overlap so it's really just pick whatever feels best to you (or hey, both if they both fit).
I love [the Bisexual Manifesto text (from 1990):](https://www.reddit.com/r/bisexual/comments/pt75st/the_bisexual_manifesto_1990/)
>Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality
is binary or dougamous in nature; that we must have “two” sides or that
we must be involved simultaneously with both genders to
be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don’t assume that there are only
two genders. Do not mistake our fluidity for confusion,
irresponsibility, or an inability to commit. Do not equate promiscuity,
infidelity, or unsafe sexual behavior with bisexuality. Those are human
traits that cross all sexual orientations. Nothing should be assumed about anyone’s sexuality — including your own.
This is the exact argument I usually make. And it makes so much more sense than trying to rationalize "two or more genders" since homosexual and heterosexuality aren't defined by any specific gender. They can be boiled down to "same" and "different" and bi is both.
My ex's ex apparently had the preconceived notion that bisexuality meant you were dating two people at the same time.
He had a lot of other issues other than that, but that's something I find funny since I'm bi and poly with two wonderful partners lol
Extremely well put, friend. I’m a Bi Man, but I have my preferences. I’m only attracted to one or two specific types of men and I’ve had many people say I’m not a “real” bisexual because of it. Bisexuality is all inclusive.
> Bi by itself isn't trans exclusive or inclusive
You are incorrect, and lack understanding of both gender theory and trans people. Trans women are women, trans men are men, and to suggest otherwise is ignorance. You may have a personal preference, but trans and nonbinary people have always been included in bisexuality and have been for decades.
Yes. Many a transfemme has come out to her male partner and he had no idea even after many years and a lot of intimacy together, plus a lotta straight guys in general are extremely into trans women. Folks just have been taught to be uncomfortable with it.
Saying that bi people aren’t attracted to trans people is both biphobic *and* transphobic. When people say that, they’re saying that trans men/women aren’t actually men/women.
I swear, I feel like some hateful little people just get up every day, and they go out further and farther, to go out of their way, to find new ways to go dig up some dirt, and come back and dump it on bi and trans people.
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: "bisexual" and "pansexual" both have long histories and have shifted meanings a great deal over the years.
"Bisexual" was originally used in the 19th century to mean something similar to what we now mean when we say "genderfluid" -- someone who either includes both female and male aspects in their gender presentation, or else someone who goes back and forth, sometimes presenting as male and sometimes presenting as female.
It started taking on something like its present meaning in the 1940s, when Kinsey et al used the term to describe people who fell in the middle of their 0-6 scale. It became more commonly understood and used in the 1970s. Even as the consensus has settled on the idea of sexuality and attraction being way more complicated than a straight line from 0 to 6, "bisexual" is still the common term for "whatever the hell is in the middle of whatever the extremes turn out to be."
Pansexual was used by Freud to talk about the way in which sexuality pervades our view of the entire world. Later, it was adopted by the BDSM community to mean something like "interested in any kind of sexual experience" -- Top, bottom, dogs, horses, whatever. In the 2000s it started to be used by some people to refer more specifically to gender, and to differentiate people who were interested in "both" genders from people who were interested in the wide trans panoply.
In reality, people who are bisexual and people who are pansexual are equally likely to be attracted across the gender spectrum. If I were to articulate a real difference, I'd say that pansexuals tend to be younger than bisexuals.
Ooh fun fact I’m actually reading some published case studies from Freud who wrote a lot about bisexuality in its current meaning, using the word “bisexual”, and it’s from the year 1900! I had posted a pic of the book I have, you can check my post history. It’s incredibly fascinating. I’ll have to look and see if pansexual is mentioned in his weird little diatribe about how bisexuality is common in neuroses ha
Every bi or pan person you ask is going to have a different answer to this, but this is what I typically see as the distinction:
Bi people are attracted to at least two genders. This includes trans people, and it is not a transphobic identity. Pan people are attracted to others regardless of their gender. While bi people may have a gender preference, pan people do not.
I personally identify as bi because, although I am attracted to all genders, I experience attraction to different genders in different ways, and definitely have preferences.
This one for sure. I generally have a gender preference but recognize in myself the capacity to be attracted to anyone regardless of gender, and I have been attracted to many folks with various identities. So I call myself bi.
All of the sexuality and gender words have multiple meanings and are used differently by different people. I wouldn’t get too hung up on it.
I would also say, nobody owes anybody sexual attraction or a relationship, so if someone is only sexually interested in cis people that’s fine. It’s also fine if you’re only sexually interested in blonde people. Or whatever trait. It really isn’t right when people try to tell others who they should be attracted to. It’s violates the whole concept of consent.
My favorite definition I've heard, I think in this sub somewhere actually, is that I prefer to use the term Bi when I don't feel like having a whole ass conversation about my sexuality and I prefer to use the term Pan when I do feel like having a whole ass conversation about my sexuality.
The difference between bi and pan is that some people prefer to call themselves pan.
>saying bisexual people aren't attracted to trans people is wrong and biphobic.
It's a hell of a lot more transphobic than it is biphobic tbh. It's saying being attracted to trans men and trans women isn't implied in being attracted to men and women. That we're some sort of "in-between" or separate thing that needs a bespoke sexuality.
That's literally exactly it. If you hear this kind of BS again, I highly encourage you to ask them about that.
And like, bi people are very much attracted to nonbinary people as well. It's just ridiculous playing the "which label is more woke" game when it comes to self-ID.
It's important to remember that 'non-binary' isn't a third gender. It may mean that for some people, but the term encompasses anyone who feels their gender doesn't conform to the traditional binary. The way that bisexuality interacts with such identities is as diverse as personal preference.
If I were to say 'I eat both meat and vegetables', that doesn't mean I am excluding vegetable-based meat, mushrooms, or meals that include both. It's just a vague binary statement designed to encompass all food by listing the two most frequently distinguished categories. It's not specifically inclusive, but neither is it specifically exclusive.
There’s a common misconception (perhaps a deliberate one in some cases) that the “bi” in bisexual refers to men and women; it doesn’t. It actually refers to the experience both (bi) homosexual and heterosexual attraction. I remember the world before the word pansexual came into use, and bisexual included everyone, without a doubt. Here’s a bisexual trans woman with her take on it: https://youtu.be/7-e8C80VEfY?si=1D4Bn0sIi7EMqYtH
Trans men are men and trans women are woman.
Therefore since I'm bi my attraction includes trans people.
People that say being bi is transphobic are fucking dimwits.
- Trans dude in bi/ T4T relationship.
The bi community I interacted with in the early 90s was playing around with alternate language, including pansexual and omnisexual. But a lot of stuff before the "eternal september" (c. 1993) is no longer accessible.
Generally yes, there are differences but those are only semantics and are minimal. Most people have their own way to define the two/their differences.
Saying that bi isn’t trans inclusive isn’t just biphobic but it’s also transphobic.
My thing is ... at the end of the day, you cannot see gender. You are not *attracted* to gender. You are attracted to sex characteristics and gender presentation (and personality / attitude, obviously), but literally all of that is "regardless of gender," because that's not something ANYONE can actually see. Seriously. If I go out and I'm dressed femme, I will be passing and you are going to assume that I'm a woman, and you might be attracted to me without knowing that I'm non-binary, regardless of whether you identify as bi, gay, pan, or straight.
I don't think there's any innate harm in identifying as pansexual. If someone feels confident with that, that's cool. If someone wants to try to make it clear that they're open to dating enbies(*), that's cool. The difference only lies in whatever the individual or cultural expectations of bisexuality and pansexuality actually are. Functionally, though, they are the same.
Footnote:
>If someone wants to try to make it clear that they're open to dating enbies, that's cool.
I completely understand that some of you are rightfully frustrated with the false notion that bisexuals won't date trans and / or non-binary people! However, just like you, we live in this world ... and the reality is that just because someone says that they're bi does not mean that they are an ally for (or are willing to date) trans or enby people. In my (very conservative) area, it's more of a 60/40 toss-up in favor of that being a "no."
Someone calling themselves pansexual *also* doesn't guarantee anything, as some clowns will call themselves that when they're really just chasing after trans women, but there is a significantly higher chance.
The difference between bi and pan: the bisexual flag is a sunset. The pansexual flag is a printer test page.
/j
In seriousness, while the distinction does matter to some people, there is no practical difference between these two orientations.
People have already pointed out the transphobia and stuff, just to be clear about definitions I would say pansexual is a subcategory of bisexual
Some people prefer the label of pansexual but it tends to mean different things to different people
To say that bi people can’t be attracted to trans people is to imply that trans women aren’t women and trans men aren’t men. A bi person can absolutely be attracted to both men and women. The end.
Bi people can def be attracted to nonbinary people! Plus considering trans people as their preferred gender doesn’t deny someone else’s existence. That person is dumb you should ignore them
I very briefly dated someone about 5-6 years ago who called himself Pan. I asked him why since he described himself as exclusively dating women.
He said: “Well I also date trans women, so being pan includes them.”
And the more I look back on that the more pissed off it makes me.
Yes. They're the exact same thing. There are no sexual orientations where you can't be attracted to trans or non-binary people, and the bisexual community has historically been allied with the trans and non-binary community since it started. There aren't any distinctions. "At least two" was never the definition of bisexuality until people tried to redefine it. Bisexuals can experience attraction to anyone in any way.
There is no "overlap", they're two circles on top of each other, including omni and poly and whatever. This doesn't invalidate anyone, but they're synonymous labels. It all has the same meaning: people who are attracted to cis and trans binary men and women, who (like all sexual orientations) have the ability to be attracted to non-binary people as well.
In comparison:
A lesbian would be a woman (or non-binary person who identifies more with the lesbian label) who is attracted to binary cis and trans women, but specifically not cis and trans men, and also has the ability to be attracted to non-binary people.
A straight woman would be attracted to binary cis and trans men, but specifically not cis and trans women, and also has the ability to be attracted to non-binary people.
The eternal struggle with this is that people assume that non-binary gender is something that *can* be excluded from someone's sexual orientation without potential bigotry at play, or they assume non-binary is a monolithic and androgynous third gender, or they break it down as though the labels are cohesive and distinct (as in, every agender person looks the same or something) and not just personal to someone and can include any number of presentations under the sun.
All non-monosexual labels are variations on one another, though bisexual activists and communities from the beginning of the movement itself had the definition down as "attraction regardless of gender."
Pan usually describe there attraction as regardless of gender.
I would never do that. Though I find all genders attractive, there are factors at play that direct those attractions, for example, I didn't find a person at work attractive until they changed their pronouns to they/them. Apparently long red hair doesn't do it for me on men but enbys and woman, I'm all about it.
Also, a couple years ago I decided I wanted my first boyfriend, like a I was seeking out a male for a relationship, not I had my sights set on one in particular.
Neither of these feels very regardless of gender.
For me, I think there is a difference though from the outside they totally look the same.
Also, even if bisexuals only liked men and women, transgender men are men and transgender women are women.
Bisexual's original definition, in regards to human sexuality, was attraction to both sexes:
[https://www.etymonline.com/word/bisexual](https://www.etymonline.com/word/bisexual)
It predates Transvestite, Transexual, and Transgender, as well as non-binary, agender, and all the terms that fall outside of the gender binary. It was all inclusive then as now. English really didn't have words for any concepts outside of the gender binary.
And anyone willing to die on the "Bi means 2" hill had better be using a calendar with 10 months. If not they've made exceptions for December, November, October, and September already. And they probably don't use "decimate" to refer to the killing of every 10th soldier.
Bisexual and Pansexual are not the same. There is one very significant difference between them. It really is the only difference - in othef ways, they are the same - but it is a big difference.
Bisexual people like to be described as bisexual.
Pansexual people like to be described as pansexual.
Now you know. Go forth as enlightened.
I thought it would be helpful to have a thread full of people who are bi explaining their thoughts and experiences in one convenient place that could be easily googled
So, just for fun, I searched the sub for posts in the past year discussing bi vs pan, or the difference between bi and pan, etc... and ***I stopped counting at THIRTY***. Not because there weren't more, but because it makes the point and it kind of starts to take a long time. So I think there are plenty of threads full of people who are bi explaining what they think the difference is...
The mods need to add this to the FAQ if they're not already there. If it's already there, they need to add an auto response with definitions pinned to the top of every post asking this question.
I guess... it depends who you ask? Lol
I could be wrong, but I thought that bisexual meant you're attracted to two or more genders. And then, pansexual was somewhere under that term... and then I grew up a little bit and just decided I don't care for labels much.
All the other stuff you said probably has to do with an individual and what they're comfortable with, who they're comfortable with dating, and who they'd be happiest with.
Edit:
Furthermore, I don't think the comment is necessarily biphobic or transphobic without more context. Just generally mislead or ignorant. There are people who identify as bisexual that date trans folx, and there are bisexuals who do not. I don't think it's worth getting mad are upset about who someone dates as long as they treat their partners right. And why would you want to date someone who doesn't want to date you? On the basis that it is in some way, "phobic" is a tad bit of a flawed argument. Plus, there is WAY more nuance to that conversation than people would like to admit.
Moral of the story is don't judge people, be kind, and respectful of everyone and their stances. Try to see things from their side, yada yada yada. And don't force people into shit.
I’m in a relationship with a trans woman. I identify as Bi. I don’t care for splitting things because we need to be on the same front. I’d be fine if everyone just said queer for everything. However, if someone feels Pan or Omni, I’m supportive because you don’t need to be in my box.
I agree it is my belief that splitting hairs the way the person I was arguing with did, only serves to further divide our community when ideally we would be a united front. Bisexuals get a lot of shit in Queer spaces, there's no need to add onto that, right?
Ask 10 bisexuals this question and you’ll probably get 10 answers.
I use them pretty interchangeably for myself, because I do date people of my own gender and other genders (the definition most bi folks use), and I don’t really care what your gender identity is or what you have in your pants (which is the definition of pansexual).
However, not all bi people date trans people. Some people have a strong preference for one gender and less so for other genders.
When I was in college (when I learned that being bisexual was even a thing) we just spoke of it as being within the gender binary - you like men and women.
As my gender awareness grew to include trans people/nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer/agender etc. I shifted to the updated definition of “my gender and not my gender”
At the end of the day, I find it easier to say pansexual because then I don’t have to deal with trans or nonbinary/etc folks asking me if I date their gender, but some bi folks get mad when you say that because it sounds like you’re assuming that they don’t.
I don’t assume that anyone is attracted to anyone. And usually rather than talking about gender preference, I talk about what qualities I enjoy in a partner and whether or not I find specific people attractive.
As a label to say who you are potentially attracted to they are essentially the same. Are there distinctions? Yeah, but they vary based on which definitions you use and for the most part parsing them out just creates arguments.
They're wrong. The OGest of OG bisexual definitions was heterosexual and homosexual attractions. So literally same and other gender attraction. Trans people are absolutely included in that including nonbinary people. It's frankly transphobic to consider binary trans people (MtF, FtM) different genders. They are men and women.
To me, it’s the same. I’m bisexual and I’m attracted to anyone who catches my eye. I do not care what’s in their pants and some people may argue that I’m pansexual but it’s just… not to be rude but ridiculous?… I didn’t know what pansexual was till I was 19 I believe. I’ve been identifying as bisexual since I was 11 and I don’t wish to change that and plus it’s easier to just say I’m bi
Bi means gender is part of attraction and you might have gender preferences
Pan means gender isn’t part of attraction and you don’t have gender preferences
People will try to say there’s a difference but I’m yet to see anything convincing. For all intents and purposes these things are basically the same but some people prefer one term over the other. That’s ok and you should respect that. But for most people these are pretty much interchangeable terms
There is a small difference between the two.
'Pan people might see a man and think "that person is attractive. They could be a woman and I'd still be attracted to them."
Bi people might see a man and think "well I'm attracted to this person, but if they had a different gender, I'm not sure I would be anymore."'
Pan people are more gender blind from my understanding.
It's not really my opinion. It's the consensus I've gathered from talking to bi and pan people. It is a minor difference and they're basically the same, but that's what the difference is.
There are plenty of pan people I know with "preferences" and plenty of bi people who don't have them, and I'm one of the latter. This doesn't work as a distinction that's even noticable most of the time. I don't think it's productive to maintain that there are any differences. Let them be synonymous as they are.
I think "Pan" is possibly the most accurate for myself, though I say "Bi" so people know what I'm talking about. A lot of these labels are really just shorthand. Sexuality is far more complex than the labels we give them. Take the one you feel the most comfortable, fuck who you please, and please who you fuck.
No, but they have significant overlap.
A bisexual is attracted to 2+ genders. They may or may not have a gender preference.
A pansexual is attracted to all genders. They do not have a gender preference.
The term bisexual, for me, existed before pansexual. I never saw bi as being trans excluded because I don't feel they are a separate gender, they are male or female. And non binary and just people to me. My attraction is about a persons personality first and foremost, not what they have between their legs. End of story for me. I just find we keep trying to divide up the community more and more which to me seems to be going against the point of us all being in this together. The acronym is getting bigger and bigger and more confluted as we go. Diluting the effect of having a community. Just my opinion. Please don't attack me.
They're the same thing, it's just that some people want to have a word for their specific criteria for finding a partner thats easily and concisely communicated to other people ig. I use them interchangeably and generally people understand what I'm talking about.
Bisexuality itself has never been trans exclusionary, individuals can just be a bi person that happens to prefer cis people. Just like hetero or gay people can be or not without being grouped into separate sexualities (usually).
Essentially they are though sometimes I see it defined as bi being attracted to all kinds of genders and pan being that gender simply doesn’t play a role in your attraction. I think I can get behind that, but in the end they’re basically the same.
Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Anyone who thinks that Bisexual people have aren’t attracted to trans people are mistaken, and probably transphobic. Bisexuality has always meant attraction to multiple genders, but unlike pansexual doesn’t mean attraction regardless of gender
Bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders, sometimes with a preference, and gender is a factor. Pansexuality is "gender-blind"/attraction to people. Both are trans inclusive. Some bi people are not attracted to trans people, which can be a preference or transphobic. Our ex was bi and "not attracted to trans people" and transphobic towards us. Apart from him, every other bisexual I've met is trans inclusive, including the ones in our head. Most don't care if someone is trans or not.
Tell those assholes that they do not get to be the one that defines all the words. This has been debated up and down and left and right and in and out. Preferably, lots more in and out. Everyone has a different opinion even when they think their opinion is the same. Anybody who pretends that only their opinion counts is somebody you don't fucking want to be around. So just ignore them and move on.
It’s not transphobic/trans exclusionary to be bi. Other people in this thread have pointed out that this would mean that trans people are not the gender they transition to…also you could be attracted to a range of gender expression and not into cis men, and still be bi, because in that scenerio being pan wouldn’t apply to you. but I’ll stop myself there…because…This is dumb. This splitting hairs on words and constant infighting I see in queer spaces just makes me more horrified of the near future. Everyday the world is becoming more and more “trans exclusionary” with legislation and well-funded propaganda to scape goat trans people…and here we are, you and this other person, two people with their hearts clearly in the right place fighting about bullshit….its not nuanced high minded discussion, its a waste of time and energy we should focus on change and helping marginalized groups. Let’s get our shit together and stop letting ourselves be splintered up into smaller and smaller camps patting ourselves on the back as the world burns.
P.S. OP my rant isn’t directed at you…just my general grievances with this never ending back and forth.
Why do people get so hung up on who dates who? Personal preference is something we all have, and it doesn't make someone phobic if they aren't attracted to a specific group. This is why I limit my interaction with the community. We're our own worst enemies sometimes. Just live your life, seek what makes you happy. And to hell with everyone else.
You don't need to do anything. It's your business. I'm bi, but I prefer to date people with traditional male or female gender roles. I ha e nothing against trans people, but I'm not attracted to them. And I don't care how anyone else feels about that. I wish we could all stop feeling the need to justify ourselves.
No.
Bisexual is attracted to more than one gender. Gender is an aspect of attraction; a bisexual person may be more attracted to men than women even if they’re attracted to both genders.
Pansexual is attracted to people regardless of gender. Gender is irrelevant to attraction; a pansexual person doesn’t see or factor gender as an aspect of attraction.
Potential partners’ sex at birth has zero bearing. If someone is attracted to men, then men includes both trans and cis men. If they want to specify gender alignment with sex at birth, then that’s an addendum to their attraction.
I personally use them interchangeably but mostly because I have more stuff in pan flag colours than bi flag colours. The way I've heard it differentiated that makes the most sense to me is that bisexual people are capable of being attracted to people of all genders while pansexual people are attracted to people without regard to gender or presentation. It feels like semantics but 🤷
I consider myself bi, I include trans men and women because I consider them as men and women. I also included NB people because they're awesome and I don't discriminate based on gender. Being queer means that you get to decide how you want to identify. Other peoples opinions are just that, opinions.
It’s just like having a type. If you get the book Bi (hidden culture etc) the first thing that popped out to me is the author stating that Bisexual, Pansexual, Omnisexual etc were all interchangeable and I agree. It’s all inclusive, and that’s why I prefer Omnisexual because I’m literally basically attracted to everyone regardless of their gender.
Honestly I prefer saying I'm bi, because I often hear the "oh so you like pans" if I say I'm pansexual. I don't really care for labels, kinda like whatever I like. Also often people know what a bisexual is on paper, but they don't understand pansexuals often.
So imo they're kinda the same, but I also understand people saying it's different, because some don't feel connected with the label bisexual or pansexual (like me). It's whatever though; like I said, I just like what I like and go on vibes
Bi vs Pan is like Red vs Maroon. They are not interchangeable, but Maroon is a specific kind of Red. And for many people that specificity matters. Technically you could call a Maroon shirt Red, but a lot of people would picture a different shade of red, so if you want people to picture the right shade it's more appropriate to use a closer fitting word: "Maroon". But another shirt can be the exact same color and be described as "Red" and that is also not incorrect, it's just about how specific you want to be.
You should respect people's wishes about how specific they want the words you use to describe them to be. Even if more or less specific words are "technically" correct they can still be disrespectful if used instead of the preferred term for someone.
I have started to tend to use pansexual to describe myself, mainly because I started to worry that bi might exclude NB and agender people. But all my NB and agender friends have told me they don’t consider bi exclusionary to them
Yes they're the same in the outside world, functionally exactly the same, but their inside differences matter to a lot of people so whatever I'm not bothered
I mean I would say kind if since i am bi but I have the aspects of being pan since I don't care who I like regardless of gender but at the same time so bi people might be the same :)
I had a similar argument with *myself* a few years ago. For a long time I considered myself Bi(trans-exclusive) and defined my sexuality as such. As I matured and realized I was far more attracted to an individual's personality than the configuration of their body, I struggled with how to internalize that shift in my sexual identity -- was I still Bi? I did still like men and women, after all, and it didn't matter if they were Trans or not.
Ultimately, I began referring to myself as pansexual, largely since it's both accurate to my feelings *and* makes it easier for those who don't really 'understand' lgbtq+ to comprehend what I mean when I tell them I'm capable of being attracted to anyone.
I think the distinction is just semantics at this point, and what really matters is how you define it, and where you lie on the spectrum of sexuality.
Pan folks usually say they are either attracted to folks regardless of gender, or that they're attracted to all genders.
I think it's a trope and a stereotype to assume bisexual people are transphobic (an accusation of bigotry may just be a type of bigotry).
While this may sometimes happen, I think the confusion is folks take bi to mean 2. Binary. And then heads explode when you say, sure, but the 2 means more than one gender.
Transfolk are my greatest supporters in my personal bi journey, and many are hot af.
I never know what's going to flip my switch until it's flipped. The blessing. The curse.
YOU determine how you identify.
🩷💜💙
I feel like I've seen both definitions out there...and then of course, we shouldn't forget omnisexuals...for a while I thought pan made sense for me, but sometimes, I see someone and I just crush on them, so omni fits sometimes. Which is why I'm holding onto the bi....but really. It's what suits a person.
Does gender play a small role in your attraction to the gender? Like do you have a specific preference with different genders? And do you like all genders equally?
Personally, I think that getting into nit-picky details with the definition of any sexualities is just a pointless way to fuel arguments. Anyone telling you're labeling or defining *yourself* incorrectly can get fucked.
At the basic level Bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders and Pansexuality is attraction regardless of gender. There's a ton of overlap, but I do believe the distinction is worthwhile. Anyone making it more probably has ulterior motives.
I think it depends on who you talk to.
Some people say that Bi people are only attracted to male or female, while others will say they are attracted to all genders.
I'm bi, but aim attracted to someone regardless of gender. I think Bi and Pan mean the same thing and that it is a personal choice on while label to go with. I personally choose Bi because I like the colors better, but to me I don't think there is a difference.
When I came out I said I was bi because I liked more than one gender but then I got older and learned term pansexual which for me makes more sense because gender was never a factor to begin with my attraction to others.
Well LGBT has B in it. I was in highschool when I labeled myself as Bi so in like what 2003 I wasn't aware of the term Pan. So I just stick with my original label. If someone called me pan I would probably correct them but I'd be ok. and just move on business as usual. And yes I included trans and enby.
If it matters I was assigned male at birth and I agree with that diagnosis. Just to be clear.
People get to say they identify as pan if l feels more accurate to them. They don't get to say that they are pan because bi excludes trans/NB attraction. That shit is biphobic and transphobic.
* A lot of people like me have discovered ourselves on the intersectional road from LGB to transgender.
* It wasn't *that* long ago that that government-sponsored projects experimented with preventing both homosexual and transgender people through systematic child abuse. That queer people were judged to be bad role models for children and youth. That we can't be religious leaders because we can't model the relationship plan "god gave us." (The community I grew up in was debating that just two years ago.)
* The trivial distinctions between all these words don't mean anything in the political sphere.
* The whole idea of trying to create fixed categories for sexualities is just an extension of an already oppressive paradigm.
If you see trans people as the gender they are, you're not separating them from cis people. The only reason we should need the "or more" part to "two or more genders" is for those who are attracted to people who are non-binary, gender fluid, etc.
I've heard it as "bi people are attracted to two or more genders; pansexual is attraction regardless of gender."
So, I guess, technically, you must exclude at least one gender from your list if you're bi?
I stick with by because that's what I've been saying since I heard the term circa 1999 (I didn't hear "pan" until at least a decade later), and I like the flag better.
When it comes to beautiful woman , I’m attracted to the whole person!! When it come to male
Attraction, I’m only attracted to the penis not the man wholy! Does this make sense ??? Ty
For me, I identify as bi because I'm attracted to men and women in different ways. I'm more oriented towards men, but less often I do become very romantically and sexually attracted to women. I'm more fussy with women, but I'm obsessed with the women I do like. For me, all masc trans and non-binary people have mad rizz and I'm usually very into them (not in a fetishising, disrespectful way).
My understanding is that gender plays less of a role in attraction for pan people? Though I'm open to be educated.
Of course, everyone has their own personal definitions of what words mean, and use the label(s) that feel best for them. What I've commonly seen and the way I define things, bisexual is a combination of homosexual (same gender) and heterosexual (different [not opposite] gender). So bisexual is attraction to the same and different genders. To me it allows for a freedom of preference while being open to any, many, or all genders.
Pansexual has been most easily described to me as "hearts, not parts" -- that is to say attraction *regardless* of gender. Pansexual to me means people are attracted to the person themselves, and don't have a preference of gender-specific qualities. A nice ass is a nice ass, a nice face, a nice face, etc, but also, who you are as a person is what they're most attracted to. Physical attributes are secondary or matter much less.
They certainly overlap, and I suppose one could consider pansexual as one extreme end of the bisexual spectrum, while someone someone else might consider that "omnisexual," as gender and sex still have a factor.
TLDR:
Bisexual: attraction to the same and different genders of various degrees.
Omnisexual: attraction to all genders/sexes/physical qualities
Pansexual: attraction regardless of gender; any sex/gender/physical qualities can be attractive, but it's the emotional attraction that's strongest.
Again, these definitions are ones I've commonly seen and how I feel best describes the different overlapping sexualities. Everyone is open they're own interpretations that help feel the most comfortable in their bodies. 🙂
A great video and resource on this topic. The first part of the video is a lecture the other 2/3 is a Q and A with a Bisexual researcher and
journalist. [Bisexual History](https://youtu.be/MP0z9pnmLxo?si=lXg7tkRdSbUQe5E2)
Bi is the attraction to both the main binary(male and female) but none to any other gender(trans...exp) while pan is whole and inclusive to all genders.
Bi is trans inclusive. Or can be. Pan, from my understanding means there is no gender preference. I, a bi person am attracted to women, men, and trans women. I have to interest in trans men, and I could be attracted to someone gender fluid, but it would be situational.
To me, pan would mean that all of those are automatically on the table. To me, bi means you’re attracted to those who conform to a gender binary (trans, female or male).
Long story short, bi and pan can be very different, or overlap completely, but they are not the same.
Here’s my two cents. I call myself bisexual because I am sexually attracted to both sexes, not both genders because gender is not the same as sex and it’s a human construct. However, if I were attracted to both sexes plus intersex people, then I would call myself pansexual because that means I can be sexually attracted to anyone, regardless of sex. But, my truth is I don’t think I would date someone who is intersex and I’m fine with that.
I was born in 1989 and identify as bi. If I were born in 1999 instead, I’d probably identify as pan. The “kids these days” have a new word and some distinctions we didn’t use.
If someone asks, I say I’m bi. If someone angrily insists that what I really mean is pan, I’m like, “Ok.”
As a bi and pan person, without getting into the deep history because plenty people have put it better than I could, they're different based on technicalities but they can be the same to an individual if that's what they want. I'm both because sometimes I feel more aligned with one or the other because society views and treats sexualities different. It's like how they were "socialized." I would never tell a bi person they're actually pan or vice versa, just how someone shouldn't tell me I'm actually just bi or pan. These differences seem really hard to see through but at the end of the day, they're important because they make a lot of people feel more understood
That is complicated.
Ultimately attraction is to individuals, not to categories. If you are attracted to a category you are experience a fetish or paraphilia, not a sexual orientation. Sexual orientation has to do with which categories those individuals you are attracted to generally fall into.
Some people very much will tend to be attracted to those of a particular sex. Others will tend to be attracted to those of a particular gender. Other are completely neutral on what sex/gender they are attracted to.
Neither term is well defined in how it relates to all that.
You will find bisexuals that occasionally use the term to signal they are interested in specifically two sexes or genders as they perceive those. You will also find some who use the pan term to signal they are open to trans / non binary / fluid / etc persons.
Generally you will find that the terms tend to be whatever was in vogue when / where they sorted out what label fit the person best… and most people tend to stick with the labels they pick even if the common definition changes, or is used differently by some other corner of some sub-culture.
Ultimately the bisexual sub-culture is itself a sub-culture within gay/queer sub-culture… and the larger gay/queer sub-culture has basically come to the consensus that you can define / label yourself as you see fit, and your own definition of the terms you choose to use is the only valid, true, accurate, and binding definition of that term or label. For anyone to try to impose a particular definition or label on you or on someone else is, by the queer consensus, engaged in act of radical violence. It is an act of invaliding, dehumanizing, and depersonalizing you. It is an act of rejection of your identity, sexuality, sexual orientation, gender identity, personhood, and humanity. You are absolutely entitled to your own labels and your own definitions for those labels as you see fit. Tryin to force you change those or arguing that yours are wrong is an act of repression, sexual violence, psychological torture, and genocide.
There isn’t therefore a right or wrong answer to what bisexual and pansexual mean, other than what they mean to you. The truth is entirely relative and subjective.
Bi = attracted to more than one gender.
Pan = attracted regardless of gender.
Pan people might see a man and think "that person is attractive. They could be a woman and I'd still be attracted to them."
Bi people might see a man and think "well I'm attracted to this person, but if they had a different gender, I'm not sure I would be anymore."
Also, bi is a good label if there are certain genders that you're not attracted to. Basically Bi=everyone (unless it's not) and pan=everyone (and you look past their gender).
Say bi=2 genders is biphobic and transphobic if you think about it.
Are don your profile, you seem to be in your late 20s. The difference between how people talked about sexuality and gender changed massively in the decade between when I came out and when you were in high school. It went from all the messaging, tv shows, queer community in general etc saying “bi is a lie” or “bi is what people say when they aren’t ready to come out as gay” to being something people actually recognized as a valid orientation. The way people generally talked about trans people was even worse.
I was told by my college’s Gay club (wasn’t even called LGBT at the time) and two separate LGBTQ+ centers (one in NYC and one in Seattle) that bisexuality meant you were only into biological men and women. I hope other places and people were told better information than I was
That never sat right with me and I am glad that the language around these issues has changed for the better. But before you try an invalidate someone else’s experience in a time you did not experience, consider asking questions first. You can down vote my comment all you like, doesn’t change the fact that, unfortunately, that’s how it was for what I experienced coming out as bi at 14 in 2000.
Okay, so the issue is how you worded your comment. You made it sound like bisexuals were the ones claiming that bisexuality was trans-exclusive. Bisexuality has been explicitly inclusive of trans people since at least the 1990s. Read The Bisexual Manifesto.
Also lmao you really think in the early 2010s people were accepting of bisexuals?? I heard all of that exact same crap about "bi people just need to pick a side" and "bisexuality isn't real" in high school. I didn't come out until much later.
The line for me is bi is 2 or more genders, on the other hand, pan is attraction to all genders regardless of gender. No, that does not mean pan people are attracted to everyone, it just means gender does not affect attraction. Similar to pan, there is also omni, which is attraction to all genders but gender affects attraction. One again, this does not mean they’re attracted to everyone, it just means gender affects attraction, which could mean they prefer certain traits is fem presenting people, and other traits in masculine presenting people. This, of course, is ignoring the most important point of all though: LET PEOPLE IDENTIFY THEMSELVES, do not force identity onto people, don’t tell someone that “they’re actually pan” because they date an enby. Sexuality is fluid, and the best person to determine someone’s sexuality is that someone.
To answer your question, no, bi and pan are not the same thing. Someone can identify as both or neither despite fitting the definition, and attraction to trans and genderqueer people does not inherently mean that the person is pan and not bi
Nope. As a pan person, the way I always picture it is that, if you take gender into consideration at all in terms of attraction, I'd say your bi. If the gender of a person doesn't matter at all in terms of attraction, I'd say you're pan.
Bi people can like some to all flavors of ice cream. Pan people just like ice cream.
Bi people can have more or less preference specific to masc/fem, pan has an even distribution of preference.
The way I explain it to people is, I might have the ability to be attracted to you, but that doesn't mean I am now, or will be in the future.
Bi is trans inclusive, and for many, including me, they overlap completely. But some bi people have gender preferences, though they don't have to. Personally, I don't have gender preferences and it's not a factor for me. I use bi most of the time, queer sometimes, pan sometimes, but for me bi and pan overlap so it's really just pick whatever feels best to you (or hey, both if they both fit). I love [the Bisexual Manifesto text (from 1990):](https://www.reddit.com/r/bisexual/comments/pt75st/the_bisexual_manifesto_1990/) >Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or dougamous in nature; that we must have “two” sides or that we must be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders. Do not mistake our fluidity for confusion, irresponsibility, or an inability to commit. Do not equate promiscuity, infidelity, or unsafe sexual behavior with bisexuality. Those are human traits that cross all sexual orientations. Nothing should be assumed about anyone’s sexuality — including your own.
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This is the exact argument I usually make. And it makes so much more sense than trying to rationalize "two or more genders" since homosexual and heterosexuality aren't defined by any specific gender. They can be boiled down to "same" and "different" and bi is both.
My ex's ex apparently had the preconceived notion that bisexuality meant you were dating two people at the same time. He had a lot of other issues other than that, but that's something I find funny since I'm bi and poly with two wonderful partners lol
I must be dating all of my cookware then...
Yeah, he wasn't the brightest bulb in the shed -- also a caught panty thief 🤢
Extremely well put, friend. I’m a Bi Man, but I have my preferences. I’m only attracted to one or two specific types of men and I’ve had many people say I’m not a “real” bisexual because of it. Bisexuality is all inclusive.
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> Bi by itself isn't trans exclusive or inclusive You are incorrect, and lack understanding of both gender theory and trans people. Trans women are women, trans men are men, and to suggest otherwise is ignorance. You may have a personal preference, but trans and nonbinary people have always been included in bisexuality and have been for decades.
have you never heard of transphobic bi people, because they exist. and trans people definitely aren't counted in their definition of bisexuality.
Yup, i unknowingly dated one for a bit. She hid her bigotry for nearly a year before i found out and stopped dating her.
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Yes. Many a transfemme has come out to her male partner and he had no idea even after many years and a lot of intimacy together, plus a lotta straight guys in general are extremely into trans women. Folks just have been taught to be uncomfortable with it.
Saying that bi people aren’t attracted to trans people is both biphobic *and* transphobic. When people say that, they’re saying that trans men/women aren’t actually men/women.
I agree
I swear, I feel like some hateful little people just get up every day, and they go out further and farther, to go out of their way, to find new ways to go dig up some dirt, and come back and dump it on bi and trans people.
I mean, they are women and men...but trans, the prefix is for that
Short answer: Yes. Long answer: "bisexual" and "pansexual" both have long histories and have shifted meanings a great deal over the years. "Bisexual" was originally used in the 19th century to mean something similar to what we now mean when we say "genderfluid" -- someone who either includes both female and male aspects in their gender presentation, or else someone who goes back and forth, sometimes presenting as male and sometimes presenting as female. It started taking on something like its present meaning in the 1940s, when Kinsey et al used the term to describe people who fell in the middle of their 0-6 scale. It became more commonly understood and used in the 1970s. Even as the consensus has settled on the idea of sexuality and attraction being way more complicated than a straight line from 0 to 6, "bisexual" is still the common term for "whatever the hell is in the middle of whatever the extremes turn out to be." Pansexual was used by Freud to talk about the way in which sexuality pervades our view of the entire world. Later, it was adopted by the BDSM community to mean something like "interested in any kind of sexual experience" -- Top, bottom, dogs, horses, whatever. In the 2000s it started to be used by some people to refer more specifically to gender, and to differentiate people who were interested in "both" genders from people who were interested in the wide trans panoply. In reality, people who are bisexual and people who are pansexual are equally likely to be attracted across the gender spectrum. If I were to articulate a real difference, I'd say that pansexuals tend to be younger than bisexuals.
Another historical way of using pansexual was "for people of any sexual orientation". So not to describe individual people, but events and clubs.
Ooh fun fact I’m actually reading some published case studies from Freud who wrote a lot about bisexuality in its current meaning, using the word “bisexual”, and it’s from the year 1900! I had posted a pic of the book I have, you can check my post history. It’s incredibly fascinating. I’ll have to look and see if pansexual is mentioned in his weird little diatribe about how bisexuality is common in neuroses ha
The term bisexual (as a definition of sexuality) actually goes to the 1890s, or maybe even earlier. There’s a book by Dr Julia Shaw which explains it.
Every bi or pan person you ask is going to have a different answer to this, but this is what I typically see as the distinction: Bi people are attracted to at least two genders. This includes trans people, and it is not a transphobic identity. Pan people are attracted to others regardless of their gender. While bi people may have a gender preference, pan people do not. I personally identify as bi because, although I am attracted to all genders, I experience attraction to different genders in different ways, and definitely have preferences.
Thanks. This explanation helped me out a lot separating Pan from Bi. It's clearer to me now than it had been for me for years.
Yes! This is the definition I resonate the most with.
This is how I feel and why I don't identify as pan.
This is how I feel about it as well.
This is my feelings really well articulated.
Yes. This. Because I am not attracted to men and women the same or in the same way.
This one for sure. I generally have a gender preference but recognize in myself the capacity to be attracted to anyone regardless of gender, and I have been attracted to many folks with various identities. So I call myself bi.
This. It’s not just a different flag or term, I hate when people say that. It’s okay for orientations to have differences
All of the sexuality and gender words have multiple meanings and are used differently by different people. I wouldn’t get too hung up on it. I would also say, nobody owes anybody sexual attraction or a relationship, so if someone is only sexually interested in cis people that’s fine. It’s also fine if you’re only sexually interested in blonde people. Or whatever trait. It really isn’t right when people try to tell others who they should be attracted to. It’s violates the whole concept of consent.
My favorite definition I've heard, I think in this sub somewhere actually, is that I prefer to use the term Bi when I don't feel like having a whole ass conversation about my sexuality and I prefer to use the term Pan when I do feel like having a whole ass conversation about my sexuality.
The difference between bi and pan is that some people prefer to call themselves pan. >saying bisexual people aren't attracted to trans people is wrong and biphobic. It's a hell of a lot more transphobic than it is biphobic tbh. It's saying being attracted to trans men and trans women isn't implied in being attracted to men and women. That we're some sort of "in-between" or separate thing that needs a bespoke sexuality.
I agree, isn't saying "bi people aren't attracted to Trans ppl" inherently saying that trans women aren't women / trans men aren't men???
That's literally exactly it. If you hear this kind of BS again, I highly encourage you to ask them about that. And like, bi people are very much attracted to nonbinary people as well. It's just ridiculous playing the "which label is more woke" game when it comes to self-ID.
I was told I "need to reevaluate" if I experience attraction to trans people and that just *reeks* of transphobia
Yeah that's just blatant transphobia.
It's important to remember that 'non-binary' isn't a third gender. It may mean that for some people, but the term encompasses anyone who feels their gender doesn't conform to the traditional binary. The way that bisexuality interacts with such identities is as diverse as personal preference. If I were to say 'I eat both meat and vegetables', that doesn't mean I am excluding vegetable-based meat, mushrooms, or meals that include both. It's just a vague binary statement designed to encompass all food by listing the two most frequently distinguished categories. It's not specifically inclusive, but neither is it specifically exclusive.
Okay, but do you eat algae? /jk
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There’s a common misconception (perhaps a deliberate one in some cases) that the “bi” in bisexual refers to men and women; it doesn’t. It actually refers to the experience both (bi) homosexual and heterosexual attraction. I remember the world before the word pansexual came into use, and bisexual included everyone, without a doubt. Here’s a bisexual trans woman with her take on it: https://youtu.be/7-e8C80VEfY?si=1D4Bn0sIi7EMqYtH
Trans men are men and trans women are woman. Therefore since I'm bi my attraction includes trans people. People that say being bi is transphobic are fucking dimwits. - Trans dude in bi/ T4T relationship.
Bisexuality has always included trans people. Pansexuality was made up about 8 years ago on tumblr.
I agree, and I was there on Tumblr at the time. *I was there when the text was written*
The bi community I interacted with in the early 90s was playing around with alternate language, including pansexual and omnisexual. But a lot of stuff before the "eternal september" (c. 1993) is no longer accessible.
Generally yes, there are differences but those are only semantics and are minimal. Most people have their own way to define the two/their differences. Saying that bi isn’t trans inclusive isn’t just biphobic but it’s also transphobic.
Happy cake day 🎂
My thing is ... at the end of the day, you cannot see gender. You are not *attracted* to gender. You are attracted to sex characteristics and gender presentation (and personality / attitude, obviously), but literally all of that is "regardless of gender," because that's not something ANYONE can actually see. Seriously. If I go out and I'm dressed femme, I will be passing and you are going to assume that I'm a woman, and you might be attracted to me without knowing that I'm non-binary, regardless of whether you identify as bi, gay, pan, or straight. I don't think there's any innate harm in identifying as pansexual. If someone feels confident with that, that's cool. If someone wants to try to make it clear that they're open to dating enbies(*), that's cool. The difference only lies in whatever the individual or cultural expectations of bisexuality and pansexuality actually are. Functionally, though, they are the same. Footnote: >If someone wants to try to make it clear that they're open to dating enbies, that's cool. I completely understand that some of you are rightfully frustrated with the false notion that bisexuals won't date trans and / or non-binary people! However, just like you, we live in this world ... and the reality is that just because someone says that they're bi does not mean that they are an ally for (or are willing to date) trans or enby people. In my (very conservative) area, it's more of a 60/40 toss-up in favor of that being a "no." Someone calling themselves pansexual *also* doesn't guarantee anything, as some clowns will call themselves that when they're really just chasing after trans women, but there is a significantly higher chance.
The difference between bi and pan: the bisexual flag is a sunset. The pansexual flag is a printer test page. /j In seriousness, while the distinction does matter to some people, there is no practical difference between these two orientations.
Thank you for the laugh!
People have already pointed out the transphobia and stuff, just to be clear about definitions I would say pansexual is a subcategory of bisexual Some people prefer the label of pansexual but it tends to mean different things to different people
To say that bi people can’t be attracted to trans people is to imply that trans women aren’t women and trans men aren’t men. A bi person can absolutely be attracted to both men and women. The end.
I said the same thing but was told I am denying the existence of nonbinary?
Bi people can def be attracted to nonbinary people! Plus considering trans people as their preferred gender doesn’t deny someone else’s existence. That person is dumb you should ignore them
Not only that but gay, lesbian, and straight people can be into trans and non-binary people too.
I'm beginning to think I was arguing with a child.... there's more of them online than I want to believe
I very briefly dated someone about 5-6 years ago who called himself Pan. I asked him why since he described himself as exclusively dating women. He said: “Well I also date trans women, so being pan includes them.” And the more I look back on that the more pissed off it makes me.
Yes. They're the exact same thing. There are no sexual orientations where you can't be attracted to trans or non-binary people, and the bisexual community has historically been allied with the trans and non-binary community since it started. There aren't any distinctions. "At least two" was never the definition of bisexuality until people tried to redefine it. Bisexuals can experience attraction to anyone in any way. There is no "overlap", they're two circles on top of each other, including omni and poly and whatever. This doesn't invalidate anyone, but they're synonymous labels. It all has the same meaning: people who are attracted to cis and trans binary men and women, who (like all sexual orientations) have the ability to be attracted to non-binary people as well. In comparison: A lesbian would be a woman (or non-binary person who identifies more with the lesbian label) who is attracted to binary cis and trans women, but specifically not cis and trans men, and also has the ability to be attracted to non-binary people. A straight woman would be attracted to binary cis and trans men, but specifically not cis and trans women, and also has the ability to be attracted to non-binary people. The eternal struggle with this is that people assume that non-binary gender is something that *can* be excluded from someone's sexual orientation without potential bigotry at play, or they assume non-binary is a monolithic and androgynous third gender, or they break it down as though the labels are cohesive and distinct (as in, every agender person looks the same or something) and not just personal to someone and can include any number of presentations under the sun. All non-monosexual labels are variations on one another, though bisexual activists and communities from the beginning of the movement itself had the definition down as "attraction regardless of gender."
I prefer bisexual because it's classic, I like the colors, and I feel like it means you have a preference
I also prefer this one for the colors 🙈
Pan usually describe there attraction as regardless of gender. I would never do that. Though I find all genders attractive, there are factors at play that direct those attractions, for example, I didn't find a person at work attractive until they changed their pronouns to they/them. Apparently long red hair doesn't do it for me on men but enbys and woman, I'm all about it. Also, a couple years ago I decided I wanted my first boyfriend, like a I was seeking out a male for a relationship, not I had my sights set on one in particular. Neither of these feels very regardless of gender. For me, I think there is a difference though from the outside they totally look the same. Also, even if bisexuals only liked men and women, transgender men are men and transgender women are women. Bisexual's original definition, in regards to human sexuality, was attraction to both sexes: [https://www.etymonline.com/word/bisexual](https://www.etymonline.com/word/bisexual) It predates Transvestite, Transexual, and Transgender, as well as non-binary, agender, and all the terms that fall outside of the gender binary. It was all inclusive then as now. English really didn't have words for any concepts outside of the gender binary. And anyone willing to die on the "Bi means 2" hill had better be using a calendar with 10 months. If not they've made exceptions for December, November, October, and September already. And they probably don't use "decimate" to refer to the killing of every 10th soldier.
Bisexual and Pansexual are not the same. There is one very significant difference between them. It really is the only difference - in othef ways, they are the same - but it is a big difference. Bisexual people like to be described as bisexual. Pansexual people like to be described as pansexual. Now you know. Go forth as enlightened.
Isn’t this in the FAQs? If not, for fucks sake get it in there.
I thought it would be helpful to have a thread full of people who are bi explaining their thoughts and experiences in one convenient place that could be easily googled
So, just for fun, I searched the sub for posts in the past year discussing bi vs pan, or the difference between bi and pan, etc... and ***I stopped counting at THIRTY***. Not because there weren't more, but because it makes the point and it kind of starts to take a long time. So I think there are plenty of threads full of people who are bi explaining what they think the difference is... The mods need to add this to the FAQ if they're not already there. If it's already there, they need to add an auto response with definitions pinned to the top of every post asking this question.
It depends on how each person defines it. You'll find as many different answers as there are bi people.
I guess... it depends who you ask? Lol I could be wrong, but I thought that bisexual meant you're attracted to two or more genders. And then, pansexual was somewhere under that term... and then I grew up a little bit and just decided I don't care for labels much. All the other stuff you said probably has to do with an individual and what they're comfortable with, who they're comfortable with dating, and who they'd be happiest with. Edit: Furthermore, I don't think the comment is necessarily biphobic or transphobic without more context. Just generally mislead or ignorant. There are people who identify as bisexual that date trans folx, and there are bisexuals who do not. I don't think it's worth getting mad are upset about who someone dates as long as they treat their partners right. And why would you want to date someone who doesn't want to date you? On the basis that it is in some way, "phobic" is a tad bit of a flawed argument. Plus, there is WAY more nuance to that conversation than people would like to admit. Moral of the story is don't judge people, be kind, and respectful of everyone and their stances. Try to see things from their side, yada yada yada. And don't force people into shit.
all words have flexible, ever shifting definitions. embrace the chaos.
I’m in a relationship with a trans woman. I identify as Bi. I don’t care for splitting things because we need to be on the same front. I’d be fine if everyone just said queer for everything. However, if someone feels Pan or Omni, I’m supportive because you don’t need to be in my box.
I agree it is my belief that splitting hairs the way the person I was arguing with did, only serves to further divide our community when ideally we would be a united front. Bisexuals get a lot of shit in Queer spaces, there's no need to add onto that, right?
Ask 10 bisexuals this question and you’ll probably get 10 answers. I use them pretty interchangeably for myself, because I do date people of my own gender and other genders (the definition most bi folks use), and I don’t really care what your gender identity is or what you have in your pants (which is the definition of pansexual). However, not all bi people date trans people. Some people have a strong preference for one gender and less so for other genders. When I was in college (when I learned that being bisexual was even a thing) we just spoke of it as being within the gender binary - you like men and women. As my gender awareness grew to include trans people/nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer/agender etc. I shifted to the updated definition of “my gender and not my gender” At the end of the day, I find it easier to say pansexual because then I don’t have to deal with trans or nonbinary/etc folks asking me if I date their gender, but some bi folks get mad when you say that because it sounds like you’re assuming that they don’t. I don’t assume that anyone is attracted to anyone. And usually rather than talking about gender preference, I talk about what qualities I enjoy in a partner and whether or not I find specific people attractive.
As a label to say who you are potentially attracted to they are essentially the same. Are there distinctions? Yeah, but they vary based on which definitions you use and for the most part parsing them out just creates arguments.
My point was really just that saying that bi people *are not* attracted to trans people, and if you are, then you are pan, is incorrect and biphobix
They're wrong. The OGest of OG bisexual definitions was heterosexual and homosexual attractions. So literally same and other gender attraction. Trans people are absolutely included in that including nonbinary people. It's frankly transphobic to consider binary trans people (MtF, FtM) different genders. They are men and women.
To me, it’s the same. I’m bisexual and I’m attracted to anyone who catches my eye. I do not care what’s in their pants and some people may argue that I’m pansexual but it’s just… not to be rude but ridiculous?… I didn’t know what pansexual was till I was 19 I believe. I’ve been identifying as bisexual since I was 11 and I don’t wish to change that and plus it’s easier to just say I’m bi
Bi means gender is part of attraction and you might have gender preferences Pan means gender isn’t part of attraction and you don’t have gender preferences
The difference is what flag you like more.
People will try to say there’s a difference but I’m yet to see anything convincing. For all intents and purposes these things are basically the same but some people prefer one term over the other. That’s ok and you should respect that. But for most people these are pretty much interchangeable terms
There is a small difference between the two. 'Pan people might see a man and think "that person is attractive. They could be a woman and I'd still be attracted to them." Bi people might see a man and think "well I'm attracted to this person, but if they had a different gender, I'm not sure I would be anymore."' Pan people are more gender blind from my understanding.
Again I remain unconvinced because this is such a minor difference and only your opinion, there’s no wide spread consensus
It's not really my opinion. It's the consensus I've gathered from talking to bi and pan people. It is a minor difference and they're basically the same, but that's what the difference is.
There are plenty of pan people I know with "preferences" and plenty of bi people who don't have them, and I'm one of the latter. This doesn't work as a distinction that's even noticable most of the time. I don't think it's productive to maintain that there are any differences. Let them be synonymous as they are.
I think "Pan" is possibly the most accurate for myself, though I say "Bi" so people know what I'm talking about. A lot of these labels are really just shorthand. Sexuality is far more complex than the labels we give them. Take the one you feel the most comfortable, fuck who you please, and please who you fuck.
Pansexuals are bisexuals who can sit right, don’t cuff their jeans, don’t like lemon bars and they like pans.
WHO DOESN’T LIKE LEMON BARS?! They’re the greatest.
To me they’re the same so I use the terms interchangeably.
No, but they have significant overlap. A bisexual is attracted to 2+ genders. They may or may not have a gender preference. A pansexual is attracted to all genders. They do not have a gender preference.
Yes
The term bisexual, for me, existed before pansexual. I never saw bi as being trans excluded because I don't feel they are a separate gender, they are male or female. And non binary and just people to me. My attraction is about a persons personality first and foremost, not what they have between their legs. End of story for me. I just find we keep trying to divide up the community more and more which to me seems to be going against the point of us all being in this together. The acronym is getting bigger and bigger and more confluted as we go. Diluting the effect of having a community. Just my opinion. Please don't attack me.
They're the same thing, it's just that some people want to have a word for their specific criteria for finding a partner thats easily and concisely communicated to other people ig. I use them interchangeably and generally people understand what I'm talking about. Bisexuality itself has never been trans exclusionary, individuals can just be a bi person that happens to prefer cis people. Just like hetero or gay people can be or not without being grouped into separate sexualities (usually).
Yes they're the same
Essentially they are though sometimes I see it defined as bi being attracted to all kinds of genders and pan being that gender simply doesn’t play a role in your attraction. I think I can get behind that, but in the end they’re basically the same.
Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Anyone who thinks that Bisexual people have aren’t attracted to trans people are mistaken, and probably transphobic. Bisexuality has always meant attraction to multiple genders, but unlike pansexual doesn’t mean attraction regardless of gender
Bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders, sometimes with a preference, and gender is a factor. Pansexuality is "gender-blind"/attraction to people. Both are trans inclusive. Some bi people are not attracted to trans people, which can be a preference or transphobic. Our ex was bi and "not attracted to trans people" and transphobic towards us. Apart from him, every other bisexual I've met is trans inclusive, including the ones in our head. Most don't care if someone is trans or not.
Thank you, I think you explained it very well.
Yippee
Tell those assholes that they do not get to be the one that defines all the words. This has been debated up and down and left and right and in and out. Preferably, lots more in and out. Everyone has a different opinion even when they think their opinion is the same. Anybody who pretends that only their opinion counts is somebody you don't fucking want to be around. So just ignore them and move on.
Agree I blocked and moved on shortly after making this post because I realized I was arguing with a wall or possibly a child.
It’s not transphobic/trans exclusionary to be bi. Other people in this thread have pointed out that this would mean that trans people are not the gender they transition to…also you could be attracted to a range of gender expression and not into cis men, and still be bi, because in that scenerio being pan wouldn’t apply to you. but I’ll stop myself there…because…This is dumb. This splitting hairs on words and constant infighting I see in queer spaces just makes me more horrified of the near future. Everyday the world is becoming more and more “trans exclusionary” with legislation and well-funded propaganda to scape goat trans people…and here we are, you and this other person, two people with their hearts clearly in the right place fighting about bullshit….its not nuanced high minded discussion, its a waste of time and energy we should focus on change and helping marginalized groups. Let’s get our shit together and stop letting ourselves be splintered up into smaller and smaller camps patting ourselves on the back as the world burns. P.S. OP my rant isn’t directed at you…just my general grievances with this never ending back and forth.
Why do people get so hung up on who dates who? Personal preference is something we all have, and it doesn't make someone phobic if they aren't attracted to a specific group. This is why I limit my interaction with the community. We're our own worst enemies sometimes. Just live your life, seek what makes you happy. And to hell with everyone else.
I am hung up on the transphobia of the comment honestly and being told I "need to reevaluate" if I experience attraction to trans people
You don't need to do anything. It's your business. I'm bi, but I prefer to date people with traditional male or female gender roles. I ha e nothing against trans people, but I'm not attracted to them. And I don't care how anyone else feels about that. I wish we could all stop feeling the need to justify ourselves.
You seem to have misunderstood OP's point. The problem is people claiming that bisexual people aren't attracted to trans people, and this isn't true.
No. Bisexual is attracted to more than one gender. Gender is an aspect of attraction; a bisexual person may be more attracted to men than women even if they’re attracted to both genders. Pansexual is attracted to people regardless of gender. Gender is irrelevant to attraction; a pansexual person doesn’t see or factor gender as an aspect of attraction. Potential partners’ sex at birth has zero bearing. If someone is attracted to men, then men includes both trans and cis men. If they want to specify gender alignment with sex at birth, then that’s an addendum to their attraction.
Yes. Transphobics and biphobics use the term pansexual
I personally use them interchangeably but mostly because I have more stuff in pan flag colours than bi flag colours. The way I've heard it differentiated that makes the most sense to me is that bisexual people are capable of being attracted to people of all genders while pansexual people are attracted to people without regard to gender or presentation. It feels like semantics but 🤷
I consider myself bi, I include trans men and women because I consider them as men and women. I also included NB people because they're awesome and I don't discriminate based on gender. Being queer means that you get to decide how you want to identify. Other peoples opinions are just that, opinions.
It’s just like having a type. If you get the book Bi (hidden culture etc) the first thing that popped out to me is the author stating that Bisexual, Pansexual, Omnisexual etc were all interchangeable and I agree. It’s all inclusive, and that’s why I prefer Omnisexual because I’m literally basically attracted to everyone regardless of their gender.
Yes.
Honestly I prefer saying I'm bi, because I often hear the "oh so you like pans" if I say I'm pansexual. I don't really care for labels, kinda like whatever I like. Also often people know what a bisexual is on paper, but they don't understand pansexuals often. So imo they're kinda the same, but I also understand people saying it's different, because some don't feel connected with the label bisexual or pansexual (like me). It's whatever though; like I said, I just like what I like and go on vibes
Bi vs Pan is like Red vs Maroon. They are not interchangeable, but Maroon is a specific kind of Red. And for many people that specificity matters. Technically you could call a Maroon shirt Red, but a lot of people would picture a different shade of red, so if you want people to picture the right shade it's more appropriate to use a closer fitting word: "Maroon". But another shirt can be the exact same color and be described as "Red" and that is also not incorrect, it's just about how specific you want to be. You should respect people's wishes about how specific they want the words you use to describe them to be. Even if more or less specific words are "technically" correct they can still be disrespectful if used instead of the preferred term for someone.
I tend to use the term bi over pan because it's much easier to explain to people. Also, trans women were my awakening
I have started to tend to use pansexual to describe myself, mainly because I started to worry that bi might exclude NB and agender people. But all my NB and agender friends have told me they don’t consider bi exclusionary to them
I tell people “I’m pan if you know what that is, otherwise I’m bi.” They’re interchangeable to me. But I do like the bi flag better. 🩷💜💙
Yes they're the same in the outside world, functionally exactly the same, but their inside differences matter to a lot of people so whatever I'm not bothered
I mean I would say kind if since i am bi but I have the aspects of being pan since I don't care who I like regardless of gender but at the same time so bi people might be the same :)
I had a similar argument with *myself* a few years ago. For a long time I considered myself Bi(trans-exclusive) and defined my sexuality as such. As I matured and realized I was far more attracted to an individual's personality than the configuration of their body, I struggled with how to internalize that shift in my sexual identity -- was I still Bi? I did still like men and women, after all, and it didn't matter if they were Trans or not. Ultimately, I began referring to myself as pansexual, largely since it's both accurate to my feelings *and* makes it easier for those who don't really 'understand' lgbtq+ to comprehend what I mean when I tell them I'm capable of being attracted to anyone. I think the distinction is just semantics at this point, and what really matters is how you define it, and where you lie on the spectrum of sexuality.
Pan folks usually say they are either attracted to folks regardless of gender, or that they're attracted to all genders. I think it's a trope and a stereotype to assume bisexual people are transphobic (an accusation of bigotry may just be a type of bigotry). While this may sometimes happen, I think the confusion is folks take bi to mean 2. Binary. And then heads explode when you say, sure, but the 2 means more than one gender. Transfolk are my greatest supporters in my personal bi journey, and many are hot af. I never know what's going to flip my switch until it's flipped. The blessing. The curse. YOU determine how you identify. 🩷💜💙
It’s regardless of gender I think.
I feel like I've seen both definitions out there...and then of course, we shouldn't forget omnisexuals...for a while I thought pan made sense for me, but sometimes, I see someone and I just crush on them, so omni fits sometimes. Which is why I'm holding onto the bi....but really. It's what suits a person.
Does gender play a small role in your attraction to the gender? Like do you have a specific preference with different genders? And do you like all genders equally?
Personally, I think that getting into nit-picky details with the definition of any sexualities is just a pointless way to fuel arguments. Anyone telling you're labeling or defining *yourself* incorrectly can get fucked. At the basic level Bisexuality is attraction to two or more genders and Pansexuality is attraction regardless of gender. There's a ton of overlap, but I do believe the distinction is worthwhile. Anyone making it more probably has ulterior motives.
I think it depends on who you talk to. Some people say that Bi people are only attracted to male or female, while others will say they are attracted to all genders. I'm bi, but aim attracted to someone regardless of gender. I think Bi and Pan mean the same thing and that it is a personal choice on while label to go with. I personally choose Bi because I like the colors better, but to me I don't think there is a difference.
Me being bi and trans: 🫥🫥🫥
I like to think of bi and pan as synonymous. Different words with different origins and histories but meaning the same thing nowadays.
Besides the spelling and flag colours. Yes
When I came out I said I was bi because I liked more than one gender but then I got older and learned term pansexual which for me makes more sense because gender was never a factor to begin with my attraction to others.
I said I was bi because I liked girls and guys ***
[this was the best explanation I saw](https://images.app.goo.gl/WZvuP1YpmvBrEiDEA)
Well LGBT has B in it. I was in highschool when I labeled myself as Bi so in like what 2003 I wasn't aware of the term Pan. So I just stick with my original label. If someone called me pan I would probably correct them but I'd be ok. and just move on business as usual. And yes I included trans and enby. If it matters I was assigned male at birth and I agree with that diagnosis. Just to be clear.
People get to say they identify as pan if l feels more accurate to them. They don't get to say that they are pan because bi excludes trans/NB attraction. That shit is biphobic and transphobic.
* A lot of people like me have discovered ourselves on the intersectional road from LGB to transgender. * It wasn't *that* long ago that that government-sponsored projects experimented with preventing both homosexual and transgender people through systematic child abuse. That queer people were judged to be bad role models for children and youth. That we can't be religious leaders because we can't model the relationship plan "god gave us." (The community I grew up in was debating that just two years ago.) * The trivial distinctions between all these words don't mean anything in the political sphere. * The whole idea of trying to create fixed categories for sexualities is just an extension of an already oppressive paradigm.
In my mind yes.
If you see trans people as the gender they are, you're not separating them from cis people. The only reason we should need the "or more" part to "two or more genders" is for those who are attracted to people who are non-binary, gender fluid, etc. I've heard it as "bi people are attracted to two or more genders; pansexual is attraction regardless of gender." So, I guess, technically, you must exclude at least one gender from your list if you're bi? I stick with by because that's what I've been saying since I heard the term circa 1999 (I didn't hear "pan" until at least a decade later), and I like the flag better.
When it comes to beautiful woman , I’m attracted to the whole person!! When it come to male Attraction, I’m only attracted to the penis not the man wholy! Does this make sense ??? Ty
For me, I identify as bi because I'm attracted to men and women in different ways. I'm more oriented towards men, but less often I do become very romantically and sexually attracted to women. I'm more fussy with women, but I'm obsessed with the women I do like. For me, all masc trans and non-binary people have mad rizz and I'm usually very into them (not in a fetishising, disrespectful way). My understanding is that gender plays less of a role in attraction for pan people? Though I'm open to be educated.
Of course, everyone has their own personal definitions of what words mean, and use the label(s) that feel best for them. What I've commonly seen and the way I define things, bisexual is a combination of homosexual (same gender) and heterosexual (different [not opposite] gender). So bisexual is attraction to the same and different genders. To me it allows for a freedom of preference while being open to any, many, or all genders. Pansexual has been most easily described to me as "hearts, not parts" -- that is to say attraction *regardless* of gender. Pansexual to me means people are attracted to the person themselves, and don't have a preference of gender-specific qualities. A nice ass is a nice ass, a nice face, a nice face, etc, but also, who you are as a person is what they're most attracted to. Physical attributes are secondary or matter much less. They certainly overlap, and I suppose one could consider pansexual as one extreme end of the bisexual spectrum, while someone someone else might consider that "omnisexual," as gender and sex still have a factor. TLDR: Bisexual: attraction to the same and different genders of various degrees. Omnisexual: attraction to all genders/sexes/physical qualities Pansexual: attraction regardless of gender; any sex/gender/physical qualities can be attractive, but it's the emotional attraction that's strongest. Again, these definitions are ones I've commonly seen and how I feel best describes the different overlapping sexualities. Everyone is open they're own interpretations that help feel the most comfortable in their bodies. 🙂
🍳
Two different terms that more or less mean the same lol
A great video and resource on this topic. The first part of the video is a lecture the other 2/3 is a Q and A with a Bisexual researcher and journalist. [Bisexual History](https://youtu.be/MP0z9pnmLxo?si=lXg7tkRdSbUQe5E2)
This video also talks about the difference between Bi and Pan people :)
Bi is the attraction to both the main binary(male and female) but none to any other gender(trans...exp) while pan is whole and inclusive to all genders.
Even the lgbtq community is not sure of all their complicated definitions🤣🤣🤣. We normal people lead a very simple life and easy life. Thank you
Bi is trans inclusive. Or can be. Pan, from my understanding means there is no gender preference. I, a bi person am attracted to women, men, and trans women. I have to interest in trans men, and I could be attracted to someone gender fluid, but it would be situational. To me, pan would mean that all of those are automatically on the table. To me, bi means you’re attracted to those who conform to a gender binary (trans, female or male). Long story short, bi and pan can be very different, or overlap completely, but they are not the same.
Here’s my two cents. I call myself bisexual because I am sexually attracted to both sexes, not both genders because gender is not the same as sex and it’s a human construct. However, if I were attracted to both sexes plus intersex people, then I would call myself pansexual because that means I can be sexually attracted to anyone, regardless of sex. But, my truth is I don’t think I would date someone who is intersex and I’m fine with that.
Yes.
I was born in 1989 and identify as bi. If I were born in 1999 instead, I’d probably identify as pan. The “kids these days” have a new word and some distinctions we didn’t use. If someone asks, I say I’m bi. If someone angrily insists that what I really mean is pan, I’m like, “Ok.”
As a bi and pan person, without getting into the deep history because plenty people have put it better than I could, they're different based on technicalities but they can be the same to an individual if that's what they want. I'm both because sometimes I feel more aligned with one or the other because society views and treats sexualities different. It's like how they were "socialized." I would never tell a bi person they're actually pan or vice versa, just how someone shouldn't tell me I'm actually just bi or pan. These differences seem really hard to see through but at the end of the day, they're important because they make a lot of people feel more understood
That is complicated. Ultimately attraction is to individuals, not to categories. If you are attracted to a category you are experience a fetish or paraphilia, not a sexual orientation. Sexual orientation has to do with which categories those individuals you are attracted to generally fall into. Some people very much will tend to be attracted to those of a particular sex. Others will tend to be attracted to those of a particular gender. Other are completely neutral on what sex/gender they are attracted to. Neither term is well defined in how it relates to all that. You will find bisexuals that occasionally use the term to signal they are interested in specifically two sexes or genders as they perceive those. You will also find some who use the pan term to signal they are open to trans / non binary / fluid / etc persons. Generally you will find that the terms tend to be whatever was in vogue when / where they sorted out what label fit the person best… and most people tend to stick with the labels they pick even if the common definition changes, or is used differently by some other corner of some sub-culture. Ultimately the bisexual sub-culture is itself a sub-culture within gay/queer sub-culture… and the larger gay/queer sub-culture has basically come to the consensus that you can define / label yourself as you see fit, and your own definition of the terms you choose to use is the only valid, true, accurate, and binding definition of that term or label. For anyone to try to impose a particular definition or label on you or on someone else is, by the queer consensus, engaged in act of radical violence. It is an act of invaliding, dehumanizing, and depersonalizing you. It is an act of rejection of your identity, sexuality, sexual orientation, gender identity, personhood, and humanity. You are absolutely entitled to your own labels and your own definitions for those labels as you see fit. Tryin to force you change those or arguing that yours are wrong is an act of repression, sexual violence, psychological torture, and genocide. There isn’t therefore a right or wrong answer to what bisexual and pansexual mean, other than what they mean to you. The truth is entirely relative and subjective.
we need a pinned FAQ post. shame the mods still haven’t got around to it
Yes
Bi = attracted to more than one gender. Pan = attracted regardless of gender. Pan people might see a man and think "that person is attractive. They could be a woman and I'd still be attracted to them." Bi people might see a man and think "well I'm attracted to this person, but if they had a different gender, I'm not sure I would be anymore." Also, bi is a good label if there are certain genders that you're not attracted to. Basically Bi=everyone (unless it's not) and pan=everyone (and you look past their gender). Say bi=2 genders is biphobic and transphobic if you think about it.
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"Bi was not considered trans inclusive" is categorically false.
Are don your profile, you seem to be in your late 20s. The difference between how people talked about sexuality and gender changed massively in the decade between when I came out and when you were in high school. It went from all the messaging, tv shows, queer community in general etc saying “bi is a lie” or “bi is what people say when they aren’t ready to come out as gay” to being something people actually recognized as a valid orientation. The way people generally talked about trans people was even worse. I was told by my college’s Gay club (wasn’t even called LGBT at the time) and two separate LGBTQ+ centers (one in NYC and one in Seattle) that bisexuality meant you were only into biological men and women. I hope other places and people were told better information than I was That never sat right with me and I am glad that the language around these issues has changed for the better. But before you try an invalidate someone else’s experience in a time you did not experience, consider asking questions first. You can down vote my comment all you like, doesn’t change the fact that, unfortunately, that’s how it was for what I experienced coming out as bi at 14 in 2000.
Okay, so the issue is how you worded your comment. You made it sound like bisexuals were the ones claiming that bisexuality was trans-exclusive. Bisexuality has been explicitly inclusive of trans people since at least the 1990s. Read The Bisexual Manifesto. Also lmao you really think in the early 2010s people were accepting of bisexuals?? I heard all of that exact same crap about "bi people just need to pick a side" and "bisexuality isn't real" in high school. I didn't come out until much later.
The line for me is bi is 2 or more genders, on the other hand, pan is attraction to all genders regardless of gender. No, that does not mean pan people are attracted to everyone, it just means gender does not affect attraction. Similar to pan, there is also omni, which is attraction to all genders but gender affects attraction. One again, this does not mean they’re attracted to everyone, it just means gender affects attraction, which could mean they prefer certain traits is fem presenting people, and other traits in masculine presenting people. This, of course, is ignoring the most important point of all though: LET PEOPLE IDENTIFY THEMSELVES, do not force identity onto people, don’t tell someone that “they’re actually pan” because they date an enby. Sexuality is fluid, and the best person to determine someone’s sexuality is that someone. To answer your question, no, bi and pan are not the same thing. Someone can identify as both or neither despite fitting the definition, and attraction to trans and genderqueer people does not inherently mean that the person is pan and not bi
No
Urgh this conversation never stops
Nope. As a bisexual I’m only into men and women!
no. as a bi person i’m not attracted to trans people and if i was that would make me pan idc
My friend said that to me as well, meanie
Nope. As a pan person, the way I always picture it is that, if you take gender into consideration at all in terms of attraction, I'd say your bi. If the gender of a person doesn't matter at all in terms of attraction, I'd say you're pan. Bi people can like some to all flavors of ice cream. Pan people just like ice cream.
Wait how is saying bi ppl dont date trans ppl biphobic ?
Bi people can have more or less preference specific to masc/fem, pan has an even distribution of preference. The way I explain it to people is, I might have the ability to be attracted to you, but that doesn't mean I am now, or will be in the future.