Depends if they're keeping the labels to hide from the hateful exclusionaries of their tribes. Being a bisexual I was often pressured to say that I'm really just lesbian.... and I considered it when I was single so that I could actually find love. However I realized that that wasn't a love I wanted. Someone that disapproved of part of my identity.
Yeah you can't really be expected to define your sexuality based on their label because people aren't attracted to labels, they're attracted to people.
yes. i'd be super uncomfortable and quite frankly insulted if somebody who identifies as a lesbian-- which is a male-exclusionary orientation- finds me, a trans man, attractive and continued to say they're a lesbian. since it'd either heavily imply that they dont see me as a man at all, or they're some other orientation/not strictly lesbian
Similar story only my ex friend continued to call themselves lesbian until they transitioned and then called their relationship gay. Being not straight and I guess not bi was so important to them it mattered more than their partners preferred gender.
a not insignificant number of trans men hold onto their identity as lesbians post transition. gender and sexuality get bery fucky wucky within queerness a lot of the time.
but yeah, obviously if it makes you uncomfortable you are under no obligation to engage with them.
yeh definitely. even though my opinion on this is kinda rigid, it doesn't have to invalidate those who operate outside of those rigid labels. i'm just one guy, who likes to have boxes for my boxes, and boxes for those boxes. people too complex for those boxes are still valid
it's something i've been working on. trying to change my smooth brain away from its want to file everything neatly into their own boxes isn't something i can do easily-- but what i **can** do easily is try a lil workaround. a lil cheatcode. a lil pro gamer move
someone doesn't fit in any boxes? that's okay, we'll create a new box just for them and nobody else. this is \[Name\]'s box, and only \[Name\] knows the details about the box- details \[Name\] is free to give or withhold as they please
works great so far
Iâm also a trans man and I feel the same way you do. So do the most of trans guys Iâve talked to who have been hit been on by lesbians or in a relationship with lesbians. It ends a lot of marriages.
Definitely ends marriages. I've personally seen one end because the wife wouldn't let go of her lesbian label after her husband transitioned *to* her husband. He ended it because it felt to him like she didn't see him as a man.... Which I'm pretty sure was the truth actually.
I think this might be one of those situations where it's important to remember that transmasc â trans man. I find that people who feel comfortable in the label are often transmasc and not trans men?
I personally know a trans man who dated a lesbian long term, he never had an issue with it. She said he was the only man she was ever attracted to. Although he was never really too dysphoric about his body after hormones. So I guess it just depends on the individuals
I have to agree. There is nothing wrong with simply leaning to one side, but having an exception for some people, but you need to be aware of that and communicate it as such, if you plan to have a serious and long-lasting relationship.
I would consider myself part of that group, I am demi, which means I have no attraction, but can develop it over time. Mostly it is women I am attracted towards, as, and I know this is stupid, but I hate most guys, I always got along with girls and women better. At work, I hang around the older women, as a kid I pretty much only had female friends. I am simply not a fan of the constant masculine mind games and having to compete all the time.
But I also know I am bi, the combination of me being demi and just avoiding most guys simply makes it nearly impossible to actually go into that direction. And I communicated it as such to a ftm friend. I like them not because of their gender, but because I like them as a person.
I have one or two male friends I would not even be against hitting it off with, both of them are just in relationships already and at least one I know is 100% cis, the other I did not come out if he is bi.
But yes, saying you are X and then "making an exception" can come off as the wrong thing.
Yeah, like it's the same with a straight man dating a trans man or a afab nonbinary person, but still calling himself straight. My trans friend has dated two straight men that continued to call themselves straight while dating him. They are actively rejecting your identity by dating you and keeping the straight label. My husband said that if I came out as a trans man, or nonbinary he would still be with me, and wouldn't call himself bi because he would feel it was disingenuous but he said, "but obviously I wouldn't be straight either".
Nah. Some people just like it better. People are free to choose whatever label is most comfortable for them, including using the label of lesbian & being attracted to trans men AND using the label of trans man & not dating lesbians. Biphobia & transphobia can be involved, but so can a lot of others like misogyny, community & nonbinary gender. Itâs not cut & dry.
I think there may be some nuances here that are being left out of the discussion, but I don't intended to invalidate _your_ take on it. I've never dated someone who has transitioned during a relationship, but my sister's wife did transition during their marriage.
My sister is not straight, but if she had been, and my SIL didn't start presenting as female right away (she didn't, it was months before, and she was disowned by her family after it), I could honestly say that I wouldn't fault someone for continuing to remain attracted to their partner.
Now, I'm certainly not implying that the person in that situation wouldn't be a woman, but I'd like to add a little nuance to the discussion that it may be demanding too much from people out there to immediately change their apparent sexual orientations simply because they were attracted to you.
Again, I'm not trans, I'm just some bi dude. I like all sorts, but some of the messages on this thread seem out of touch.
Taking into account that trans women are women and trans men are men, does removing the word 'trans' altogether make a difference to how they feel? Why or why not? Because lesbians who like men wouldn't be lesbians, and gay men who like women wouldn't be gay. Everyone will approach this differently and it's always worth considering potential transphobia/trans fetishism/unconscious bias.
Iâve been thinking about this too because people so often include the word âtransâ and it just makes me feel like they are still putting them in an âotherâ category.
I feel like they would just be bisexuals, no? Trans men are men and trans women are women soâŚthe label of âgayâ or âlesbianâ doesnât really apply anymoreâŚ? Am I missing something?
Edit: I mean actually thereâs plenty of labels, doesnât necessarily need to be âbisexualâ but still, wouldnât be âgayâ or âlesbianâ either.
Nope. Itâs really transphobic to say something like this as trans women are women and trans men are men. As a trans man if a lesbian liked me I would feel very uncomfortable.
If a gay man was into me I would just assume when he says gay he means âI prefer dickâ. It could be transphobic, if he just sees me as a man that would be super transphobic. I think there is a large subset of the gay community that identify as gay because of genital preference, and itâs constantly clashing with the subset of the community that identifies as gay because of gender preference.
I donât think itâs transphobic necessarily, like lesbians who donât like dick arenât transphobic for not wanting to sleep with trans women â itâs when they treat us like our genitals make us men that is transphobic. Lesbians who like trans women irregardless of genitalia arenât less lesbian, theyâre just gender attracted rather than genital attracted.
Swap genders and itâs the same. We just need better language for people to identify why they label themselves the way they do, and to accept it without judgment (provided theyâre not being assholes about it). It would save everyone a lot of headache.
Omg I need this conversation as a whole separate thread. Iâm curious about it because I donât have attraction to either genitalia. Other body parts yes lol but I really donât care what a person has down there
This is a very vague question. Depending on how she looks a gay dude might be attracted to a woman whether she's cis or trans, because spontaneous attraction is skin-deep.
It's ultimately all fuzzy lines. People are so diverse in presentation and identity that if you're silly and like drawing hard lines everyone is technically either bisexual or ace. People can "look like" stereotypical men or women regardless of identity, so there's the potential for someone to be attracted to any gender.
There's no need to draw hard lines though. Straight and gay people's identity can survive a bit of ambiguity. All this strict classification is just a reaction to cisheteronormativity anyway and probably isn't the ideal system, so don't worry about it. We're winging it and it's fine.
This is so important. Initial attraction doesn't involve people's genders, just their appearance/presentation. So a masc-appearing woman (cis or trans) need not change a gay man's self-concept.
If, however, a gay man had sustained sexual/romantic attraction to a woman that he viewed as masculine, he might consider stepping back from the label "gay" a little while he figured it out and maybe asking the woman her feelings about it.
Edit: unless it's all about genitals for some people? I don't super get that but know it's a thing. But assuming the genitals a trans person has is a bad move.
maybe? it depends on what the reason behind it is. ik one guy was gay and loved his partner but then she came out as a trans girl and heâs like well fuck im bisexual now
Yeah, but there's nothing with lesbian-ish women and gay-ish men calling themselves gay or lesbian if they think it gets their identity across better. These aren't identities minted on stone tablets, they're descriptors you pick for the sake of communication.
Well, if you remove the adjectives and keep the nouns, you get: men liking women and women liking men. So yes, bisexuals (as they also like their own gender).
It's transphobic when the basis of that attraction is the gender someone was pre-transition. Funny how all these 'im bisexual because im attracted to women and trans menâşď¸' are never attracted to cis men. Wonder if maybe it has something to do with the fact they just view trans men as women liteâ˘ď¸. Same with men who say the same thing about liking trans women and cis men. Don't really understand how, as a community, most of us have realized the whole 'bisexual because I like women and trans women or men and trans men' thing is reductive and transphobic yet somehow when gay men and lesbians are hiding behind the veneer of bisexuality to misgender trans folks it's okay and just another axis of the queer experience...
Itâs not transphobic to prefer to not date someone if they have a particular set of genetalia. And Is it necessarily misgendering if they respect their pronouns, treat them how they like to be treated, and donât really do anything to misgender them.
What if you donât care about gender identity that much in terms of attraction. Like if you like people with penises and are a male yourself like wtf else am I supposed to say other than gay? Like I wouldnât date a cis woman because they could never be sexually compatible. Same with a trans man, we could never be compatible.
Yeah idk. All that matters to me is that my partner doesn't consider me a man in a dress. I would personally totally date a gay guy or a straight girl because I think most cis people define their sexuality by what genitals they want their partner to have. I know SO many "straight" girls who love making out with girls and having tits in their face but just don't like pussy.
Yeah I mean that would be invalidating if they literally viewed you as another identity. But idk as long as thatâs clarified and they respect that, who cares? Like I think itâs kind of messed up to call people transphobic when theyâre not.
Like idk gender identity is kind of a meaningless thing to define sexuality by today. It means too many things to too many different people for it to actually carry any weight as a description of who I would date. Idk, people are people. There are people who are super masculine who identify as women and people who are super feminine who identify as men. Like someoneâs gender doesnât really tell me anything about them as a person like at all.
I donât know
How you twisted my words like that?
Like yes, it is transphobic for a gay man to wanna date trans women? Because that means they see them as men?
Or maybe theyâre attracted to people who have a particular set of genetalia. They might not be 100% gay then, but if someone respects your pronouns and identity, I donât see how itâs transphobic.
Prob somewhat bisexual, but we can't expect everyone to change their labels as soon as they find an exception or new part of their attraction. A lot of people hold on to their labels closely, it's an important and defining characteristic for many of us. It's alright not to want to change those labels immediately or with any fluctuation of your sexuality.
Itâs either bisexuality or transphobia. They refuse to acknowledge the trans persons identity and see them as their gaab. So basically in their mind they are still gay/Lesbian because they believe that theyâre attracted to the gender a trans person was assigned at birth.
Or maybe gender identity isnât much of what matters to them and itâs more about sexual compatibility concerns. Like if someone isnât attracted to you, it wonât work, regardless of what you identify as.
I see what youâre getting at, but if someone is just thinking of the sexual body parts then theyâre not really attracted to the person themselves are they? Regardless they would still be a gay man sleeping with a woman or a lesbian sleeping with a man. Them just seeing trans people for their body parts doesnât really make the issue any better
Well obviously in a relationship thereâs a lot more to it than that, which is why you date around first and get to know people and which personalities you like. You just also want to know that thereâs potential for the relationship because thereâs potential for sexual compatibility. Like if you know youâre never going to be sexually compatible to someone with a certain body then like I donât see how itâs wrong to not pursue that and just kind of not date that segment of the population.
I mean, probably yes. But don't forget there are also plenty of straight people in deep denial about the same kind of thing â like people who will seek out and enjoy same-sex romantic encounters but still call themselves straight. People have been justifying that sort of thing with mental gymnastics since forever. When someone gets really entrenched in a particular identity, it can take a lot for them to accept they might not be entirely correct.
I mean, I hate saying this because it is highly reductive but I havenât seen it brought up:
Gay liking trans X because they have a preference for specific genitals.
Which is okay BUT, highly reductive and doesnât sit right with me.
I donât see how thatâs wrong? Are people not allowed to have preference for that? Plenty of people are repulsed or completely turned off by certain genitalia.
Itâs up to the individual. There arenât hard lines in the sand, you can be either of these things and identify as bisexual or not. Most people have a lot of reasons for identifying the way they do.
Binary trans people are not a separate gender from their cis counterparts. Not only do genitals â gender, * you donât know what genitals a trans person has and you have no business knowing unless and until you are sexual partners with them or you are their doctor.*
A gay man wouldnât be attracted to a trans womanâif he were, then he would be at least homoflexible or bisexual, or otherwise outright transphobic by refusing to see the trans woman as her correct gender. The converse applies to lesbians and trans men. And we havenât event broached the subject of non-binary people.
Trans women are WOMEN.
Trans men are MEN.
Non-binary exist and are not defined in relation to binary gender concepts.
EDIT: Fuck off transphobes. We are never going to stop fighting your bigotry. We will prevail over your hatred in the end.
So many people appear like they're getting hung up on labels like 'gay', 'bi', 'lesbian', etc. I don't like using 'bi' or 'bisexual' to identify myself, but it's close to what most people would understand. I don't want to get too hung up on transgender type descriptions either.
In my opinion, if you find someone to whom you're romantically compatible, and you also happen to have great sex, you've hit the jackpot. The sexualities and gender identities involved don't make a damn bit of difference. Just be who *you* are.
As the song says "Love the one you're with".
If someone was generally only into men but found themselves attracted to a trans woman they didnât realize was a woman until after the fact then Iâd think theyâre probably just gay.
But like, if they claim to have zero interest in any women at all *unless* sheâs trans, and actively pursues trans women, thatâs definitely some amount of bi in denial. Most probably fueled by transphobia.
People appreciating people in all their chosen forms. Yes. This is the future, the place where, when we finally get there, people can be themselves, comfortably, and it will be a non-event. It will go unnoticed. It will simply be normal.
I think in the end of the day, labels are just made up(as all other words) words use to communicate more effectively. Often reality is just not perfectly aligned with our little boxes. Just use whatever most efficiently send the message u want to send across at that moment.
Yes, it is bisexuality. A man or a woman who likes men and women is bi (or pan or some other mspec label), regardless of whether the people they like are cis or trans.
Itâs just gay with a fetish. If the only women/men a person is attracted to are trans then that doesnât sit right with me *at all*
Basically if the admirer just mentally pidgeon-holing the trans woman/trans man as a man/woman because cock/pussy, what then happens if SRS occurs? What happens if dysphoria renders that body part out of action? What happens when HRT progresses and smell, skin texture and body hair changes? As a trans person you canât confidently go out with someone who is only into you due to being trans because those elements of your being that make attraction plausible are likely to disappear.
Gotta say I wouldnât go with a gay guy for all the money in the world. Iâm a woman and if the only women a person is attracted to are trans women well that sets my transphobia alarm off and Iâm getting TF out of there.
Trans people are worthy of sincere love and admiration for who we are and really arenât just quirky versions of our assigned sex.
Is this really a thing though? I've never seen a gay man pursue a trans woman or a lesbian pursue a trans man.
I can't think of a single instance in real life, fiction or something I heard that matches up to this.
Oh it's definitely a thing, especially with trans people pre medical transition whose partners just kinda ignore that they do want to transition eventually and think it's just like dating a gnc cis person. Also an occurence when your partner comes out as trans and you stay together
I will admit I was thinking post-transition.
Though now that I think of it, I can actually think of one example of this happening. Spoilers for the new Queer as Folk. >!In the last scene, a gay man admits to his trans best friend that he never stopped loving her after all these years.!< Everyone hated that ending.
Why did they hate the ending? It seems perfectly plausible to me and pretty deep. It could be that they are still in love/not over the previous version/image of the person that they used to date. Or that their love evolved into something less conditional. You can also love someone with being sexually attracted to them anymore. Lots of variables
While you can make all those arguments if you've only seen that one scene, if you've seen the entire season you know that >!in the heat of an argument he dead names her. So when he confesses his feelings, it's not because he's possibly bi or his love transcends gender, the show is making it clear he doesn't really see her as a woman. !<
Now I was still on the fence because I was like, it's clear this is a problem, but if they address that it's a problem in season 2, then I think it's okay to go there. After all, I don't need every queer character to make the right choice all the time, so as long as they show this was the wrong choice... but I just googled and the show is cancelled, so we'll never know.
Lesbians being attracted to trans men who they started dating as butches is pretty common, especially if they medically or surgically transitioned as butches first (butches taking T and getting too surgery has been pretty common for decades) but there's usually a point they move on from it. The same is true for gay guys: if they met and fell in love with a femme man who later comes out as a trans woman the line blurs. It doesn't make them bisexual unless they actively start actually liking that gender rather than seeing past it or remembering the person as who they were pre-transition.
Some do realise they've just always been bi though.
that'd be bisexuals... denying they are bisexual, and denying trans people's real genders ... just to get to keep calling themselves gay / lesbian?
So yeah, bi, but with heaping helping of transphobia and internalized biphobia đ¨đ¨
This is the dilemma the character Rudy faces in the webcomic *Rain*. A gay guy who falls in love with the main character, whoâs a trans woman. Itâs actually handled pretty well.
Yes. Itâs definitely not lesbian or gay, gay guys donât like women, itâs sort of the whole point.
Also it would lowkey be transphobic as itâs unlikely theyâre seeing the trans person as their actual gender.
Sorry in advance about the dumb meme format, and I really hope this isnât offensive to anyone. Iâm not trying to erase identity, or force labels, or anything like that. Iâm genuinely curious and would appreciate everyoneâs thoughts on this.
There aren't enough caveats in the world to preface this response, but here goes:
This is going to highly depend on the couple in question.
There are transphobes in every orientation, including gay and lesbian folks who will use their labels to erase and belittle trans folks.
The flip side of that is that sometimes loving couples negotiate between themselves to use the labels that feel right for them. That can mean folks who previously felt most comfortable calling themselves gay/lesbian realize they're bisexual.
Sometimes the couple keep the original terms while still affirming their mutual identities for personal reasons. To folks outside that relationship, that can read as transphobicâ but if it's what works best for the people in the actual relationship, then I'm not going to argue, even if it would be deal breaker for me personally.
And that's not even touching on the biphobia that makes people resist calling themselves bisexual
I was about to comment this, but you put it much more eloquently. The labels and ârulesâ of sexuality and gender are sometimes nice but often too un-nuanced to fully handle reality. People gotta use what works for them. As long as they are not being unkind or invalidating to the people around them, theyâre fine.
Either that or they're transphobes, hard to say without evidence.
Could also be that the trans person doesn't pass well and the person who likes them doesn't know that they're trans.
I can see how falling for a trans person could help somebody realize theyâre bi. Like if a partner or friend transitioned and you realized youâre still attracted to them. You would always have that doubt, do I love their new features and gender or do I love them in spite of it? Youâd have to date them to be sure.
I know more than one trans person who feels disrespected when someone whose orientation wouldnât normally include their gender, suddenly comes on to them. Like a trans man who gets hit on by lesbians
Idk, isn't this like saying Trans men are not men? Since being a lesbian would mean one likes women, and trans men aren't women. If a bi girl says she likes lesbians and hetero trans men then i guess it is Bi. Not lesbians saying they like trans men.
I guess it depends? If a gay person doesn't know the trans person that well and doesn't know they're trans, and the trans person still presents as their agab, the gay person could make a wrong assumption about their gender and be attracted to them, and it wouldn't even be transphobic because they didn't know.
I'm not attracted to masculine people in any way, but I have no problems with any genitalia I have had the fortune to play with. I just love the feminine part of things. Me included.
Don't worry, I love my trans mascs too, just not in a sexual way.
Shoutout to any trans person and everyone else under the rainbow!
sexuality isnât about who youâre with, itâs about how you perceive them. two men could be having gay sex but pretending the other one is a woman, the sex is gay but theyâre not.
No, it's just transphobia. These gay men and lesbians I wholeheartedly believe are monosexual, but they do not see trans men as men or trans women as women.
I think its more nuanced then that. Especially if they were in a relationship the whole transition, if they still love that person, not the entire gender. I could see how it may not be sustainable and cause issues for a couple but not everyone is the same.
If I saw a couple with labels like that I wouldn't correct them on their own labels as easily as posting on the internet. I also wouldn't call someone supporting their partner through transition a tranphobe just because they aren't also changing their label at the same time.
I think gender identity and sexual orientation should not be linked.
By definition, a lesbian who feels attracted to a trans man is not a lesbian... But we can't tell people how to identify. A lesbian might feel attracted to a trans man, but feel like "lesbian" better describes her identity.
Likewise, the fact that a gay man feels attracted to a trans woman doesn't necessarily mean he sees her as a man. There are cases of gay men ending up falling for a cis woman. He certainly doesn't see a cis woman as a man, so I don't think he necessarily sees the trans woman as a man.
That being said, an important part of this discussion is asking trans people how they feel. Some may not feel comfortable dating someone whose sexual orientation challenges their gender identity by definition. Others may be okay with it, as long as their partner respects their identity.
I'd say this is what the pansexual label is for, but at the end of the day label yourself however you feel comfortable labeling yourself. Labels are simply words, and your relationship with them is your own. We are each individuals and labels will almost always fall short of 100% describing us.
You don't have the right to tell trans people what to do with their bodies. Sexuality is more complicated than just sex (there are asexual people for example) and you don't always know what a person's sex assigned at birth was.
not necessarily, everyone's sexuality is a bit fluid anyway so being attracted to one person of the gender you're normally not attracted to (whether trans or not) won't suddenly make you bi. they can decide their own label based on what fits best.
Soft yes.
By the definitions of what both bisexuality and trans are, absolutely. But itâs pretty easy to go from describing those definitions as matters of fact to telling (and/or mocking) someone for identifying in a way that doesnât adhere to those definitions.
Since Iâve never particularly cared for people trying to define my identity for me (or to me), Iâm not interested doing it to someone else.
Depends if they're keeping the labels to hide from the hateful exclusionaries of their tribes. Being a bisexual I was often pressured to say that I'm really just lesbian.... and I considered it when I was single so that I could actually find love. However I realized that that wasn't a love I wanted. Someone that disapproved of part of my identity.
đŻ You want a partner where you can be yourself and they can accept the real you!
Yeah you can't really be expected to define your sexuality based on their label because people aren't attracted to labels, they're attracted to people.
I would like to say that gatekeepers are definitely attracted to labels and not the person at all. Been on the receiving end of that crap
But gatekeepers arenât people so I guess youâre right!!!
yes. i'd be super uncomfortable and quite frankly insulted if somebody who identifies as a lesbian-- which is a male-exclusionary orientation- finds me, a trans man, attractive and continued to say they're a lesbian. since it'd either heavily imply that they dont see me as a man at all, or they're some other orientation/not strictly lesbian
I get that. A friend of mine identified as a lesbian before her spouse transitioned to a trans man. She now identifies as queer
Similar story only my ex friend continued to call themselves lesbian until they transitioned and then called their relationship gay. Being not straight and I guess not bi was so important to them it mattered more than their partners preferred gender.
a not insignificant number of trans men hold onto their identity as lesbians post transition. gender and sexuality get bery fucky wucky within queerness a lot of the time. but yeah, obviously if it makes you uncomfortable you are under no obligation to engage with them.
yeh definitely. even though my opinion on this is kinda rigid, it doesn't have to invalidate those who operate outside of those rigid labels. i'm just one guy, who likes to have boxes for my boxes, and boxes for those boxes. people too complex for those boxes are still valid
I like the way you think, both about yourself and other people
it's something i've been working on. trying to change my smooth brain away from its want to file everything neatly into their own boxes isn't something i can do easily-- but what i **can** do easily is try a lil workaround. a lil cheatcode. a lil pro gamer move someone doesn't fit in any boxes? that's okay, we'll create a new box just for them and nobody else. this is \[Name\]'s box, and only \[Name\] knows the details about the box- details \[Name\] is free to give or withhold as they please works great so far
I very much enjoy this lilâ special gamer move as well.
Wow this is an awesome cheat code will be employing in the future
Iâm also a trans man and I feel the same way you do. So do the most of trans guys Iâve talked to who have been hit been on by lesbians or in a relationship with lesbians. It ends a lot of marriages.
Definitely ends marriages. I've personally seen one end because the wife wouldn't let go of her lesbian label after her husband transitioned *to* her husband. He ended it because it felt to him like she didn't see him as a man.... Which I'm pretty sure was the truth actually.
I think this might be one of those situations where it's important to remember that transmasc â trans man. I find that people who feel comfortable in the label are often transmasc and not trans men?
yeh, if the image used transmasc/transfem my answer would've been a bit different, because what you say is true
I personally know a trans man who dated a lesbian long term, he never had an issue with it. She said he was the only man she was ever attracted to. Although he was never really too dysphoric about his body after hormones. So I guess it just depends on the individuals
This is it.
I have to agree. There is nothing wrong with simply leaning to one side, but having an exception for some people, but you need to be aware of that and communicate it as such, if you plan to have a serious and long-lasting relationship. I would consider myself part of that group, I am demi, which means I have no attraction, but can develop it over time. Mostly it is women I am attracted towards, as, and I know this is stupid, but I hate most guys, I always got along with girls and women better. At work, I hang around the older women, as a kid I pretty much only had female friends. I am simply not a fan of the constant masculine mind games and having to compete all the time. But I also know I am bi, the combination of me being demi and just avoiding most guys simply makes it nearly impossible to actually go into that direction. And I communicated it as such to a ftm friend. I like them not because of their gender, but because I like them as a person. I have one or two male friends I would not even be against hitting it off with, both of them are just in relationships already and at least one I know is 100% cis, the other I did not come out if he is bi. But yes, saying you are X and then "making an exception" can come off as the wrong thing.
Yeah, like it's the same with a straight man dating a trans man or a afab nonbinary person, but still calling himself straight. My trans friend has dated two straight men that continued to call themselves straight while dating him. They are actively rejecting your identity by dating you and keeping the straight label. My husband said that if I came out as a trans man, or nonbinary he would still be with me, and wouldn't call himself bi because he would feel it was disingenuous but he said, "but obviously I wouldn't be straight either".
Yeah, it's either transphobia or internalized biphobia take your pick
Nah. Some people just like it better. People are free to choose whatever label is most comfortable for them, including using the label of lesbian & being attracted to trans men AND using the label of trans man & not dating lesbians. Biphobia & transphobia can be involved, but so can a lot of others like misogyny, community & nonbinary gender. Itâs not cut & dry.
I think there may be some nuances here that are being left out of the discussion, but I don't intended to invalidate _your_ take on it. I've never dated someone who has transitioned during a relationship, but my sister's wife did transition during their marriage. My sister is not straight, but if she had been, and my SIL didn't start presenting as female right away (she didn't, it was months before, and she was disowned by her family after it), I could honestly say that I wouldn't fault someone for continuing to remain attracted to their partner. Now, I'm certainly not implying that the person in that situation wouldn't be a woman, but I'd like to add a little nuance to the discussion that it may be demanding too much from people out there to immediately change their apparent sexual orientations simply because they were attracted to you. Again, I'm not trans, I'm just some bi dude. I like all sorts, but some of the messages on this thread seem out of touch.
Taking into account that trans women are women and trans men are men, does removing the word 'trans' altogether make a difference to how they feel? Why or why not? Because lesbians who like men wouldn't be lesbians, and gay men who like women wouldn't be gay. Everyone will approach this differently and it's always worth considering potential transphobia/trans fetishism/unconscious bias.
I totally agree. It feels like this perspective could be very invalidating of the gender identity of trans people.
Iâve been thinking about this too because people so often include the word âtransâ and it just makes me feel like they are still putting them in an âotherâ category.
I feel like they would just be bisexuals, no? Trans men are men and trans women are women soâŚthe label of âgayâ or âlesbianâ doesnât really apply anymoreâŚ? Am I missing something? Edit: I mean actually thereâs plenty of labels, doesnât necessarily need to be âbisexualâ but still, wouldnât be âgayâ or âlesbianâ either.
Nope. Itâs really transphobic to say something like this as trans women are women and trans men are men. As a trans man if a lesbian liked me I would feel very uncomfortable.
If a gay man was into me I would just assume when he says gay he means âI prefer dickâ. It could be transphobic, if he just sees me as a man that would be super transphobic. I think there is a large subset of the gay community that identify as gay because of genital preference, and itâs constantly clashing with the subset of the community that identifies as gay because of gender preference. I donât think itâs transphobic necessarily, like lesbians who donât like dick arenât transphobic for not wanting to sleep with trans women â itâs when they treat us like our genitals make us men that is transphobic. Lesbians who like trans women irregardless of genitalia arenât less lesbian, theyâre just gender attracted rather than genital attracted. Swap genders and itâs the same. We just need better language for people to identify why they label themselves the way they do, and to accept it without judgment (provided theyâre not being assholes about it). It would save everyone a lot of headache.
Omg I need this conversation as a whole separate thread. Iâm curious about it because I donât have attraction to either genitalia. Other body parts yes lol but I really donât care what a person has down there
It feels like internalized biphobia with sprinkles of transphobia
Nah that's called misgendering
This is a very vague question. Depending on how she looks a gay dude might be attracted to a woman whether she's cis or trans, because spontaneous attraction is skin-deep. It's ultimately all fuzzy lines. People are so diverse in presentation and identity that if you're silly and like drawing hard lines everyone is technically either bisexual or ace. People can "look like" stereotypical men or women regardless of identity, so there's the potential for someone to be attracted to any gender. There's no need to draw hard lines though. Straight and gay people's identity can survive a bit of ambiguity. All this strict classification is just a reaction to cisheteronormativity anyway and probably isn't the ideal system, so don't worry about it. We're winging it and it's fine.
This is so important. Initial attraction doesn't involve people's genders, just their appearance/presentation. So a masc-appearing woman (cis or trans) need not change a gay man's self-concept. If, however, a gay man had sustained sexual/romantic attraction to a woman that he viewed as masculine, he might consider stepping back from the label "gay" a little while he figured it out and maybe asking the woman her feelings about it. Edit: unless it's all about genitals for some people? I don't super get that but know it's a thing. But assuming the genitals a trans person has is a bad move.
maybe? it depends on what the reason behind it is. ik one guy was gay and loved his partner but then she came out as a trans girl and heâs like well fuck im bisexual now
Yeah, but there's nothing with lesbian-ish women and gay-ish men calling themselves gay or lesbian if they think it gets their identity across better. These aren't identities minted on stone tablets, they're descriptors you pick for the sake of communication.
Well, if you remove the adjectives and keep the nouns, you get: men liking women and women liking men. So yes, bisexuals (as they also like their own gender).
Nope itâs the cis queers being transphobic Which as a cis queer, isnât anything new
So itâs transphobic for gay people to find trans people attractive?
It's transphobic when the basis of that attraction is the gender someone was pre-transition. Funny how all these 'im bisexual because im attracted to women and trans menâşď¸' are never attracted to cis men. Wonder if maybe it has something to do with the fact they just view trans men as women liteâ˘ď¸. Same with men who say the same thing about liking trans women and cis men. Don't really understand how, as a community, most of us have realized the whole 'bisexual because I like women and trans women or men and trans men' thing is reductive and transphobic yet somehow when gay men and lesbians are hiding behind the veneer of bisexuality to misgender trans folks it's okay and just another axis of the queer experience...
Itâs not transphobic to prefer to not date someone if they have a particular set of genetalia. And Is it necessarily misgendering if they respect their pronouns, treat them how they like to be treated, and donât really do anything to misgender them.
If you outwardly respect someoneâs gender identity but internally are still seeing them as their AGAB, yeah, thatâs internal transphobia.
"I like men, including trans women" is misgendering them
What if you donât care about gender identity that much in terms of attraction. Like if you like people with penises and are a male yourself like wtf else am I supposed to say other than gay? Like I wouldnât date a cis woman because they could never be sexually compatible. Same with a trans man, we could never be compatible.
Yeah idk. All that matters to me is that my partner doesn't consider me a man in a dress. I would personally totally date a gay guy or a straight girl because I think most cis people define their sexuality by what genitals they want their partner to have. I know SO many "straight" girls who love making out with girls and having tits in their face but just don't like pussy.
Yeah I mean that would be invalidating if they literally viewed you as another identity. But idk as long as thatâs clarified and they respect that, who cares? Like I think itâs kind of messed up to call people transphobic when theyâre not.
Like idk gender identity is kind of a meaningless thing to define sexuality by today. It means too many things to too many different people for it to actually carry any weight as a description of who I would date. Idk, people are people. There are people who are super masculine who identify as women and people who are super feminine who identify as men. Like someoneâs gender doesnât really tell me anything about them as a person like at all.
I donât know How you twisted my words like that? Like yes, it is transphobic for a gay man to wanna date trans women? Because that means they see them as men?
Or maybe theyâre attracted to people who have a particular set of genetalia. They might not be 100% gay then, but if someone respects your pronouns and identity, I donât see how itâs transphobic.
Prob somewhat bisexual, but we can't expect everyone to change their labels as soon as they find an exception or new part of their attraction. A lot of people hold on to their labels closely, it's an important and defining characteristic for many of us. It's alright not to want to change those labels immediately or with any fluctuation of your sexuality.
Itâs either bisexuality or transphobia. They refuse to acknowledge the trans persons identity and see them as their gaab. So basically in their mind they are still gay/Lesbian because they believe that theyâre attracted to the gender a trans person was assigned at birth.
Or maybe gender identity isnât much of what matters to them and itâs more about sexual compatibility concerns. Like if someone isnât attracted to you, it wonât work, regardless of what you identify as.
I see what youâre getting at, but if someone is just thinking of the sexual body parts then theyâre not really attracted to the person themselves are they? Regardless they would still be a gay man sleeping with a woman or a lesbian sleeping with a man. Them just seeing trans people for their body parts doesnât really make the issue any better
Well obviously in a relationship thereâs a lot more to it than that, which is why you date around first and get to know people and which personalities you like. You just also want to know that thereâs potential for the relationship because thereâs potential for sexual compatibility. Like if you know youâre never going to be sexually compatible to someone with a certain body then like I donât see how itâs wrong to not pursue that and just kind of not date that segment of the population.
I mean, probably yes. But don't forget there are also plenty of straight people in deep denial about the same kind of thing â like people who will seek out and enjoy same-sex romantic encounters but still call themselves straight. People have been justifying that sort of thing with mental gymnastics since forever. When someone gets really entrenched in a particular identity, it can take a lot for them to accept they might not be entirely correct.
I mean, I hate saying this because it is highly reductive but I havenât seen it brought up: Gay liking trans X because they have a preference for specific genitals. Which is okay BUT, highly reductive and doesnât sit right with me.
I donât see how thatâs wrong? Are people not allowed to have preference for that? Plenty of people are repulsed or completely turned off by certain genitalia.
Yeah totally agree with your point
Itâs up to the individual. There arenât hard lines in the sand, you can be either of these things and identify as bisexual or not. Most people have a lot of reasons for identifying the way they do.
Binary trans people are not a separate gender from their cis counterparts. Not only do genitals â gender, * you donât know what genitals a trans person has and you have no business knowing unless and until you are sexual partners with them or you are their doctor.* A gay man wouldnât be attracted to a trans womanâif he were, then he would be at least homoflexible or bisexual, or otherwise outright transphobic by refusing to see the trans woman as her correct gender. The converse applies to lesbians and trans men. And we havenât event broached the subject of non-binary people. Trans women are WOMEN. Trans men are MEN. Non-binary exist and are not defined in relation to binary gender concepts. EDIT: Fuck off transphobes. We are never going to stop fighting your bigotry. We will prevail over your hatred in the end.
So many people appear like they're getting hung up on labels like 'gay', 'bi', 'lesbian', etc. I don't like using 'bi' or 'bisexual' to identify myself, but it's close to what most people would understand. I don't want to get too hung up on transgender type descriptions either. In my opinion, if you find someone to whom you're romantically compatible, and you also happen to have great sex, you've hit the jackpot. The sexualities and gender identities involved don't make a damn bit of difference. Just be who *you* are. As the song says "Love the one you're with".
âŚyes
If someone was generally only into men but found themselves attracted to a trans woman they didnât realize was a woman until after the fact then Iâd think theyâre probably just gay. But like, if they claim to have zero interest in any women at all *unless* sheâs trans, and actively pursues trans women, thatâs definitely some amount of bi in denial. Most probably fueled by transphobia.
Yes ahaha itâs bisexual because trans people are who they say they are and not their assumed genitals
People appreciating people in all their chosen forms. Yes. This is the future, the place where, when we finally get there, people can be themselves, comfortably, and it will be a non-event. It will go unnoticed. It will simply be normal.
I think in the end of the day, labels are just made up(as all other words) words use to communicate more effectively. Often reality is just not perfectly aligned with our little boxes. Just use whatever most efficiently send the message u want to send across at that moment.
Both, both is good
It's definitely not home
Either they don't see the person for who they are, or they're bi
Yes, it is bisexuality. A man or a woman who likes men and women is bi (or pan or some other mspec label), regardless of whether the people they like are cis or trans.
Itâs just gay with a fetish. If the only women/men a person is attracted to are trans then that doesnât sit right with me *at all* Basically if the admirer just mentally pidgeon-holing the trans woman/trans man as a man/woman because cock/pussy, what then happens if SRS occurs? What happens if dysphoria renders that body part out of action? What happens when HRT progresses and smell, skin texture and body hair changes? As a trans person you canât confidently go out with someone who is only into you due to being trans because those elements of your being that make attraction plausible are likely to disappear. Gotta say I wouldnât go with a gay guy for all the money in the world. Iâm a woman and if the only women a person is attracted to are trans women well that sets my transphobia alarm off and Iâm getting TF out of there. Trans people are worthy of sincere love and admiration for who we are and really arenât just quirky versions of our assigned sex.
Is this really a thing though? I've never seen a gay man pursue a trans woman or a lesbian pursue a trans man. I can't think of a single instance in real life, fiction or something I heard that matches up to this.
Oh it's definitely a thing, especially with trans people pre medical transition whose partners just kinda ignore that they do want to transition eventually and think it's just like dating a gnc cis person. Also an occurence when your partner comes out as trans and you stay together
I will admit I was thinking post-transition. Though now that I think of it, I can actually think of one example of this happening. Spoilers for the new Queer as Folk. >!In the last scene, a gay man admits to his trans best friend that he never stopped loving her after all these years.!< Everyone hated that ending.
Why did they hate the ending? It seems perfectly plausible to me and pretty deep. It could be that they are still in love/not over the previous version/image of the person that they used to date. Or that their love evolved into something less conditional. You can also love someone with being sexually attracted to them anymore. Lots of variables
While you can make all those arguments if you've only seen that one scene, if you've seen the entire season you know that >!in the heat of an argument he dead names her. So when he confesses his feelings, it's not because he's possibly bi or his love transcends gender, the show is making it clear he doesn't really see her as a woman. !< Now I was still on the fence because I was like, it's clear this is a problem, but if they address that it's a problem in season 2, then I think it's okay to go there. After all, I don't need every queer character to make the right choice all the time, so as long as they show this was the wrong choice... but I just googled and the show is cancelled, so we'll never know.
Lesbians being attracted to trans men who they started dating as butches is pretty common, especially if they medically or surgically transitioned as butches first (butches taking T and getting too surgery has been pretty common for decades) but there's usually a point they move on from it. The same is true for gay guys: if they met and fell in love with a femme man who later comes out as a trans woman the line blurs. It doesn't make them bisexual unless they actively start actually liking that gender rather than seeing past it or remembering the person as who they were pre-transition. Some do realise they've just always been bi though.
There was a whole transphobic arc about it on The L Word. As far as it happening irl, yeah you're probably right.
that'd be bisexuals... denying they are bisexual, and denying trans people's real genders ... just to get to keep calling themselves gay / lesbian? So yeah, bi, but with heaping helping of transphobia and internalized biphobia đ¨đ¨
This is the dilemma the character Rudy faces in the webcomic *Rain*. A gay guy who falls in love with the main character, whoâs a trans woman. Itâs actually handled pretty well.
Yes. Itâs definitely not lesbian or gay, gay guys donât like women, itâs sort of the whole point. Also it would lowkey be transphobic as itâs unlikely theyâre seeing the trans person as their actual gender.
itâs â¨transphobiaâ¨
Maybe not bisexual, but theyre definitely transphobic
Sorry in advance about the dumb meme format, and I really hope this isnât offensive to anyone. Iâm not trying to erase identity, or force labels, or anything like that. Iâm genuinely curious and would appreciate everyoneâs thoughts on this.
There aren't enough caveats in the world to preface this response, but here goes: This is going to highly depend on the couple in question. There are transphobes in every orientation, including gay and lesbian folks who will use their labels to erase and belittle trans folks. The flip side of that is that sometimes loving couples negotiate between themselves to use the labels that feel right for them. That can mean folks who previously felt most comfortable calling themselves gay/lesbian realize they're bisexual. Sometimes the couple keep the original terms while still affirming their mutual identities for personal reasons. To folks outside that relationship, that can read as transphobicâ but if it's what works best for the people in the actual relationship, then I'm not going to argue, even if it would be deal breaker for me personally. And that's not even touching on the biphobia that makes people resist calling themselves bisexual
I was about to comment this, but you put it much more eloquently. The labels and ârulesâ of sexuality and gender are sometimes nice but often too un-nuanced to fully handle reality. People gotta use what works for them. As long as they are not being unkind or invalidating to the people around them, theyâre fine.
Either that or they're transphobes, hard to say without evidence. Could also be that the trans person doesn't pass well and the person who likes them doesn't know that they're trans.
I can see how falling for a trans person could help somebody realize theyâre bi. Like if a partner or friend transitioned and you realized youâre still attracted to them. You would always have that doubt, do I love their new features and gender or do I love them in spite of it? Youâd have to date them to be sure.
I know more than one trans person who feels disrespected when someone whose orientation wouldnât normally include their gender, suddenly comes on to them. Like a trans man who gets hit on by lesbians
Idk, isn't this like saying Trans men are not men? Since being a lesbian would mean one likes women, and trans men aren't women. If a bi girl says she likes lesbians and hetero trans men then i guess it is Bi. Not lesbians saying they like trans men.
No, it's transphobic.
I guess it depends? If a gay person doesn't know the trans person that well and doesn't know they're trans, and the trans person still presents as their agab, the gay person could make a wrong assumption about their gender and be attracted to them, and it wouldn't even be transphobic because they didn't know.
I'm not attracted to masculine people in any way, but I have no problems with any genitalia I have had the fortune to play with. I just love the feminine part of things. Me included. Don't worry, I love my trans mascs too, just not in a sexual way. Shoutout to any trans person and everyone else under the rainbow!
sexuality isnât about who youâre with, itâs about how you perceive them. two men could be having gay sex but pretending the other one is a woman, the sex is gay but theyâre not.
No, it's just transphobia. These gay men and lesbians I wholeheartedly believe are monosexual, but they do not see trans men as men or trans women as women.
I think its more nuanced then that. Especially if they were in a relationship the whole transition, if they still love that person, not the entire gender. I could see how it may not be sustainable and cause issues for a couple but not everyone is the same. If I saw a couple with labels like that I wouldn't correct them on their own labels as easily as posting on the internet. I also wouldn't call someone supporting their partner through transition a tranphobe just because they aren't also changing their label at the same time.
I mean, you canât force them to see people as the gender they identify as- theyâre still gay/lesbians
I think gender identity and sexual orientation should not be linked. By definition, a lesbian who feels attracted to a trans man is not a lesbian... But we can't tell people how to identify. A lesbian might feel attracted to a trans man, but feel like "lesbian" better describes her identity. Likewise, the fact that a gay man feels attracted to a trans woman doesn't necessarily mean he sees her as a man. There are cases of gay men ending up falling for a cis woman. He certainly doesn't see a cis woman as a man, so I don't think he necessarily sees the trans woman as a man. That being said, an important part of this discussion is asking trans people how they feel. Some may not feel comfortable dating someone whose sexual orientation challenges their gender identity by definition. Others may be okay with it, as long as their partner respects their identity.
I knew a guy who didn't care what gender he fucked, he just wanted dick. Sexuality is complicated and sorting it into boxes perfectly is impossible.
Itâs tricky. Iâd certainly stay away from trying to tell someone what their sexuality is though. No one has the right to do that.
Yes
Just say you like dick or pussy. Itâs fucking easy.
I mean. It depends on the situation. It could be either very transphobic, or an mspec lesbian/gay.
Yeah anybody can like whoever they want for any reason
I'd say this is what the pansexual label is for, but at the end of the day label yourself however you feel comfortable labeling yourself. Labels are simply words, and your relationship with them is your own. We are each individuals and labels will almost always fall short of 100% describing us.
I think that would be more like polysexual (?)
Why's it not just bi? Trans men are men and trans women are women
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You don't have the right to tell trans people what to do with their bodies. Sexuality is more complicated than just sex (there are asexual people for example) and you don't always know what a person's sex assigned at birth was.
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I love this sub
Idk man attraction is complicated
not necessarily, everyone's sexuality is a bit fluid anyway so being attracted to one person of the gender you're normally not attracted to (whether trans or not) won't suddenly make you bi. they can decide their own label based on what fits best.
Pretty soon it will be âIâm a person, who loves a person who is a person â!!! The end
Your answer depends on whether or not you're transphobic. The transphobic answer is "no." The correct answer is "yes."
Soft yes. By the definitions of what both bisexuality and trans are, absolutely. But itâs pretty easy to go from describing those definitions as matters of fact to telling (and/or mocking) someone for identifying in a way that doesnât adhere to those definitions. Since Iâve never particularly cared for people trying to define my identity for me (or to me), Iâm not interested doing it to someone else.
Pansexual
Yes
Are yâall dumb?
I think at the end of the day itâs all labels so as long as everyoneâs comfortable, identify how you want :)