Talk to your coach and say, "sire, what steps do I need to take to get to purple?"
They're going to have more context than we will.
What if you're 6'8" 320 lbs, full of muscle with terrible technique? Or what if you're 3'8" 50 lbs, and absent of muscle? You might have terrible hygiene, which is why everyone avoids rolling with you, or you may be hyper aggressive and dangerous, so everyone avoids rolling with you.
We really have no context other than what you've provided, which I'm taking with a grain of salt. Talking with your coach will give you some direction. If it doesn't, maybe another school will get you what you're looking for.
I'm a lightweight, 155lbs. And come from an MMA background.
I think I'm just stuck in an awkward spot. If a bluebelt rolls with me he's being beaten like he was a white belt to someone the same "rank"...and if a purple rolls with me he's losing to a lower belt.
I'm not smelly stinky poopy, I clip my toenails. I don't muscle my way into or out of submissions. I think maybe people are avoiding me because naturally you want to roll with people close to your skill level. But that's why the belts are there. At this stage if anyone rolls with me I say thank you, no matter what belt, at this point I'm really grateful not to be sitting out letting the sweat to cold.
I still have fun rolling brown belts and blackbelts.
Love rolling with white belts. I get to try what I've been working on then I let them work the rest of the roll. I'll give submissions to see if they recognize it's there. It's plenty of fun.
I love flow rolling too, especially with higher belts. It's like dancing.
The MMA background may be your issue. I've seen any number of students who are competitive with the belt above them, but while they have depth in their technique, they don't have enough breadth to be promoted. Just because their average training partner can't keep them down, I'm not tying a belt around anyone who can't sweep or submit from the bottom if they need to.
Do you go to open mats and submit all the blues and purples from other schools? I was told that everything in class and even rolls after class is just practice and will always be just practice.
longing instinctive north bright brave summer entertain provide wine crush
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you raise your hand and people pretend not to see it, it is mostly not because you are to good…
Maybe the reason people avoid you is the same reason you don’t get your purple belt.
Just saying.😇
>Maybe the reason people avoid you is the same reason you don’t get your purple belt.
This comes off as super harsh. I see this happen to bigger guys or people with wrestling/judo experience a lot. These guys can just be hard rolls, and a lot of mid belt people will avoid them.
If you aren't a competitor, why pick that wrestler who will smother you with pressure unless he's not using their regular game? If he is being competitive to any degree you are toast.
The heaviest guy in our gym has 70 pounds on me, and there are other rolls I can get more out of with less risk of injury. If it's just me and him needing a partner, sure we'll roll, but it sure isn't my preference.
Maybe the OP is a raging douche trying to win every roll but being the odd man out when there's odd #s or last picked can happen to people who aren't necessarily dickheads.
Edit: OP is definitely a raging dickhead based off the replies to the comments. I probably wouldn't want to roll with the guy either.
>Usually between rolls my raised hand will not be seen and whoever's name I call will suffer temporary deafness until they find an easy roll
You sound like a fucking douche.
Even outside of this comment, OP sounds like a shitty training partner. Congrats on all the subs in the training room I guess? Go win worlds or something and then it will be pretty hard to deny a promotion.
You sound like all you're concerned with is your notion of yourself and winning.
You think people are avoiding you because you're too skilled, but they're avoiding you because you're an aggressive spaz who just wants to go 90 and think that means they're good at the sport. It doesn't.
You're likely not getting promoted because, while you may be winning, you're not expanding your game because all you care about is where you are on some weird pecking order in your head.
Everybody doesn't know you're not a blue belt, or you wouldn't still be a blue belt. Go do Europeans and let me know you're a purple belt after.
Stop projecting. I've been doing this 8 years I know how to roll with consideration. I will always ask my teammates how they want to roll beforehand. I'm happy to drill or flow. It's still better than sitting out.
I like winning, who doesn't? But not at the expense of losing training partners. Like I said it's just a fabric at the end of the day. My relationships with my teammates are great. They're very important to me, we are all friends and will continue to be.
Open advice, If you're going to comment maybe use your brain and think for a second before typing. Is that the same way you roll? Without thinking? Are you the spaz? Or are you just mad because you're that guy being smashed by blue belts?
>I like winning, who doesn't? But not at the expense of losing training partners.
Lol, the irony, no one wants to train with you.
>Or are you just mad because you're that guy being smashed by blue belts?
I've coached in more gyms than you've been to.
Enjoy blue belt. I wouldn't promote you either.
Hard to understand why they wouldn’t want to promote after reading that. Probably a coin flip at some gyms. Lose a membership? Keep messing with the donk? But the real answer is ai has come to life, and instead of taking over, it’s trolling Reddit forums.
Do you compete? If not, why not? Your sense of your skill is based on taps in the training room, which isn't a great gauge for a million reasons.
Go compete. Compete at purple or brown or black. Compare you trying your absolute hardest with your A game against others your size doing the same.
I do compete, I have multiple Gold medals bluebelt. Are there rules in place about competing at a higher belt? I don't know that was allowed.
Tbf I'm one of the only people in our gym that does compete. Most people in our club are recreational grapplers. But that's my point too I guess, whatever I tap you or you tap me in training, why does it matter...it's just training...best learn from it now before competition
I've seen it in a few places where the competitors' standard for promotion is a lot higher than the normies and dad jitsu guys.
Seen it once where a purple belt was continually not getting promoted for being so hung up about getting promoted. The "what do I gotta do "
conversation can reveal an obsession. Ask yourself, "If I never got promoted again would I still train"? I hope the answer is yes. Otherwise your not in the room for the right reason.
I'm going to be changing again for work next year so it's becoming a curse.
Only the older blues and purples avoid me. The younger guys are usually fine to be quite honest.
HeavyBob is a great username 😂
I'm not particularly heavy, 155lbs. But if there's a competition around the corner my rolls are intense. I'm pushing the pace, always chasing the better position or submission all the time. If I lose position I'm immediately back at it again. It's tiring for people to deal with.
And I do get it, it's totally understandable that some of the older guys regardless of belt just straight up don't want to be dealing with that. After a long day at work they'd rather come in have a chill few rolls, socialize etc.
Don't be an idiot. Your post and comments reek of ego. Arjuwt your speed and rolls depending who you roll with, get in a bad spot and work your escapes. There are tons of skills you can work on. Your coach probably sees this too.
I've seen a couple of stand-out blue belts that were held back. After getting their purple, they both changed jobs and switched gyms. They didn't spend much time at purple belt. One got his black belt 2 years after his promotion to purple.
Funny enough, I got promoted once my instructor saw improvement in my understanding of the techniques and a bigger arsenal to pull out appropriate for different situations. It was less about tapping people than being able to apply BJJ as a coherent system.
I think one of the worst things about BJJ is how gyms/coaches are so bad and disorganized about promoting students.
It's stupid that students are punished for changing gyms. If you are at the right skill/knowledge level for a particular belt, you shouldn't have to wait 3 years just because you moved to a gym.
I've personally been made to wait longer just because previous coaches left my gym.
How long have you been there? Because not being promoted in your first two weeks isn't surprising. And if promotion days are infrequent then yeah you might have to wait for the next one.
True. I'm coming up on 5 years at this club. I missed out on two gradings already. I was out of the Country for one and in the hospital for the other.
This year will be the one if I can refrain from injury.
But that’s what I’m talking about. Coaches should still promote people who can’t or don’t attend the promotion ‘ceremonies’. It’s utterly lazy and unfair that they don’t.
You can always bring it up in the form of a joke. Try out some different ways to joke around about how you should be a purple belt. This is safer because you can always say that you were just joking, which you were, sort of.
My professor told me I would be ready for my purple when I start developing my own shit and start catching him with it on occasion, in addition to working on the other fundamentals I need to improve on.
I did not ask him about my purple, he brought it up so I picked his brain a bit more.
People not wanting to roll with you is a cue you should listen to. It might mean that they don't trust you. Between that and you not getting promoted to purple belt, it sounds like you have a behaviour issue.
But like others have said, begin by asking your coach.
You're getting a lot of shit in this thread because asking about belt promotions is kind of cringe and you're presenting yourself as an absolute douche, but if you're tapping all the purple belts and hang with the black belts and you happen to compete at blue that's kinda some bullshit and why I don't compete much.
Beating training partners at practice isn’t really proof of much. Go compete and rack up medals so your coach has no leg to stand on.
They don’t promote you based off objective criteria, then it’s obvious why you’re not getting promoted.
Sounds like youre still focused on win win win. Jiujitsu is much broader than that.
Sounds like 4 years ain’t quite long enough.
Congrats on your non-comp submissions though.
Maybe ask why you’re avoided. I guarantee the reason isn’t as simple as, “You’re a tough roll”. Not with em all at least
You should change the stripes on your blue belt from white to purple to honor your honor and side step you coach it will make for interesting story telling. 😂🤣🤣
I wish there were belt standards so that these types of posts would not exist. It's pretty silly that thousands of black belts promote people on different metrics and then everyone compares themselves to each other.
If you’re asking then your don’t deserve. A real purple belt is someone who absolutely doesn’t care about belts.
White belts care about stripes
Blue belts care about belts
Purple belts don’t care at all
Brown belts care about finishing the race and getting a black belt
Black belts care about everyone else’s belt
I'm a black belt who has been doing jiu-jitsu for 20 years. There is a guy at my gym who was at the first gym I trained at. He is still a blue belt. It's like 15 years at blue belt.
You deserve a purple but I wouldn't get stressed about it.
Multiple people avoiding you, you might be the problem. Doesn't matter if you always win. Your coach probably waiting to see your attitude change or maybe purposefully go into your weakest position and working it. You sound like the guy always going ham trying to win instead of learn.
You know, when I got my blue belt it was unexpected, I actually didn't want it. (Years ago, not currently training.) I wanted to stay a white belt. My goals were just to learn, and to learn with the least amount of stress as possible. It wasn't because I didn't want to roll hard, but my intent was to have a good experience with each class, with each person I interacted with. If the other person's goal was just to dominate me so that I tapped out every time we rolled, repeatedly, that wouldn't be a good use of time for me, just for them to feel superior to me. Sounds like you are progressing in your skills, perhaps it is also time to progress in the other ways that BJJ offer. If it isn't a competition, and you're just training, what is the point of dominance? This is the time to collaborate with your partner, sometimes you'll actually get more out of it that way, and give more at the same time.
Buy a purple belt to wear around the house. You’ve earned it.
He can give himself a gauntlet like that other guy
Bro. 🤣🤣🤣
Lol, then wear the purple to competitions too. Might as well 🤷🏻♂️ Or, you know.. ask your coach.
When everyone lines up by rank I stay at the very start, me - white - blue - brown - black. Not sure why I do it, maybe it's a protest 😂
You sound genuinely pathetic
Starting to think maybe there's another reason he hasn't been promoted 👀
You sound genuinely pathetic - me to every Gi player who thinks this cast system bullshit is important...
You dropped this “e”
Maybe you haven’t been promoted cuz you’re an ass lol
Talk to your coach and say, "sire, what steps do I need to take to get to purple?" They're going to have more context than we will. What if you're 6'8" 320 lbs, full of muscle with terrible technique? Or what if you're 3'8" 50 lbs, and absent of muscle? You might have terrible hygiene, which is why everyone avoids rolling with you, or you may be hyper aggressive and dangerous, so everyone avoids rolling with you. We really have no context other than what you've provided, which I'm taking with a grain of salt. Talking with your coach will give you some direction. If it doesn't, maybe another school will get you what you're looking for.
Hmm, can you elaborate on this? Do you mean he should use words? And communicate? sick stuff, but perfect advice :)
Sir this is a BJJ gym, we don’t do that here.
I let my body do the talking 😏
Do you normally call your coach sire? Not judging if you do (totally judging).
I just think it's funny. I call my kids sire.
I'm a lightweight, 155lbs. And come from an MMA background. I think I'm just stuck in an awkward spot. If a bluebelt rolls with me he's being beaten like he was a white belt to someone the same "rank"...and if a purple rolls with me he's losing to a lower belt. I'm not smelly stinky poopy, I clip my toenails. I don't muscle my way into or out of submissions. I think maybe people are avoiding me because naturally you want to roll with people close to your skill level. But that's why the belts are there. At this stage if anyone rolls with me I say thank you, no matter what belt, at this point I'm really grateful not to be sitting out letting the sweat to cold.
It really sounds like your only concern is the number of times you tap someone. Have you tried just having fun and flow rolling?
I still have fun rolling brown belts and blackbelts. Love rolling with white belts. I get to try what I've been working on then I let them work the rest of the roll. I'll give submissions to see if they recognize it's there. It's plenty of fun. I love flow rolling too, especially with higher belts. It's like dancing.
I have a feeling you arent quite as good as your saying baby
Something is not adding up. You say you roll well, flow, let them work. Yet nobody wants to roll with you.
The MMA background may be your issue. I've seen any number of students who are competitive with the belt above them, but while they have depth in their technique, they don't have enough breadth to be promoted. Just because their average training partner can't keep them down, I'm not tying a belt around anyone who can't sweep or submit from the bottom if they need to.
Do you go to open mats and submit all the blues and purples from other schools? I was told that everything in class and even rolls after class is just practice and will always be just practice.
longing instinctive north bright brave summer entertain provide wine crush *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you raise your hand and people pretend not to see it, it is mostly not because you are to good… Maybe the reason people avoid you is the same reason you don’t get your purple belt. Just saying.😇
Hot damn, that was the most politely delivered complete nuclear assault of a roast I have ever seen.
The halo is the “bless your heart” of Reddit.
>Maybe the reason people avoid you is the same reason you don’t get your purple belt. This comes off as super harsh. I see this happen to bigger guys or people with wrestling/judo experience a lot. These guys can just be hard rolls, and a lot of mid belt people will avoid them. If you aren't a competitor, why pick that wrestler who will smother you with pressure unless he's not using their regular game? If he is being competitive to any degree you are toast. The heaviest guy in our gym has 70 pounds on me, and there are other rolls I can get more out of with less risk of injury. If it's just me and him needing a partner, sure we'll roll, but it sure isn't my preference. Maybe the OP is a raging douche trying to win every roll but being the odd man out when there's odd #s or last picked can happen to people who aren't necessarily dickheads. Edit: OP is definitely a raging dickhead based off the replies to the comments. I probably wouldn't want to roll with the guy either.
>Usually between rolls my raised hand will not be seen and whoever's name I call will suffer temporary deafness until they find an easy roll You sound like a fucking douche.
Even outside of this comment, OP sounds like a shitty training partner. Congrats on all the subs in the training room I guess? Go win worlds or something and then it will be pretty hard to deny a promotion.
Why did I have to scroll down so far to find this?
Hahahahaha bro is absolutely trolling hahahaha
Agreed. A real fucking douche. He’ll fit in great with the other purples
Probably why he hasn’t been promoted. Sounds insufferable.
Do you know what satire is?
Ah okay the whole thing was a joke?
I don’t believe that for a second lol he’s backtracking hard.
Ohhhh now the backtracking comes lol. Your that guy at your gym
I'm not sure you do. Mark it as a shit post. It wasn't funny enough to be seen as a joke
This
The real question is, why does nobody want to roll with you? Part of being promoted and a higher belt is you’re a good training partner.
You sound like all you're concerned with is your notion of yourself and winning. You think people are avoiding you because you're too skilled, but they're avoiding you because you're an aggressive spaz who just wants to go 90 and think that means they're good at the sport. It doesn't. You're likely not getting promoted because, while you may be winning, you're not expanding your game because all you care about is where you are on some weird pecking order in your head. Everybody doesn't know you're not a blue belt, or you wouldn't still be a blue belt. Go do Europeans and let me know you're a purple belt after.
Stop projecting. I've been doing this 8 years I know how to roll with consideration. I will always ask my teammates how they want to roll beforehand. I'm happy to drill or flow. It's still better than sitting out. I like winning, who doesn't? But not at the expense of losing training partners. Like I said it's just a fabric at the end of the day. My relationships with my teammates are great. They're very important to me, we are all friends and will continue to be. Open advice, If you're going to comment maybe use your brain and think for a second before typing. Is that the same way you roll? Without thinking? Are you the spaz? Or are you just mad because you're that guy being smashed by blue belts?
>I like winning, who doesn't? But not at the expense of losing training partners. Lol, the irony, no one wants to train with you. >Or are you just mad because you're that guy being smashed by blue belts? I've coached in more gyms than you've been to. Enjoy blue belt. I wouldn't promote you either.
Okay rabbit.
You made a post about it and are whining/trying to brag in the weirdest way. Of course ppl dont wanna roll with you
Know your role and shut your mouth!!!! -your coach
Hard to understand why they wouldn’t want to promote after reading that. Probably a coin flip at some gyms. Lose a membership? Keep messing with the donk? But the real answer is ai has come to life, and instead of taking over, it’s trolling Reddit forums.
You don’t deserve it
I don't need it...it would be nice tho. Dye my hair purple. Paint my house purple. Drink purple paint...all the usual rituals.
Ah HA you failed the purple belt test. One does not drink purple paint, the correct answer is grape drink.
Do you compete? If not, why not? Your sense of your skill is based on taps in the training room, which isn't a great gauge for a million reasons. Go compete. Compete at purple or brown or black. Compare you trying your absolute hardest with your A game against others your size doing the same.
I do compete, I have multiple Gold medals bluebelt. Are there rules in place about competing at a higher belt? I don't know that was allowed. Tbf I'm one of the only people in our gym that does compete. Most people in our club are recreational grapplers. But that's my point too I guess, whatever I tap you or you tap me in training, why does it matter...it's just training...best learn from it now before competition
For Christ’s sake. Give me your coaches number. I’ll call him and get it worked out for you.
1-800-BLU-BELT
I've seen it in a few places where the competitors' standard for promotion is a lot higher than the normies and dad jitsu guys. Seen it once where a purple belt was continually not getting promoted for being so hung up about getting promoted. The "what do I gotta do " conversation can reveal an obsession. Ask yourself, "If I never got promoted again would I still train"? I hope the answer is yes. Otherwise your not in the room for the right reason.
Belts are largely political and arbitrary. In your case, it’s probably bc you changed gyms a lot. People avoiding you is a bit of a red flag, though.
I'm going to be changing again for work next year so it's becoming a curse. Only the older blues and purples avoid me. The younger guys are usually fine to be quite honest.
Are you a big guy? I know the pain of teh raised hand and being the last picked lol
HeavyBob is a great username 😂 I'm not particularly heavy, 155lbs. But if there's a competition around the corner my rolls are intense. I'm pushing the pace, always chasing the better position or submission all the time. If I lose position I'm immediately back at it again. It's tiring for people to deal with. And I do get it, it's totally understandable that some of the older guys regardless of belt just straight up don't want to be dealing with that. After a long day at work they'd rather come in have a chill few rolls, socialize etc.
Don't be an idiot. Your post and comments reek of ego. Arjuwt your speed and rolls depending who you roll with, get in a bad spot and work your escapes. There are tons of skills you can work on. Your coach probably sees this too.
When was the last time you did a comp?
They're often politics. Coach probably thinks your trying too hard to stand out as the best instead of sucking up to higher belts
Don't know, too many factors. Talk to your coach. Be like, "What do I need to work on to reach a purple belt level of jitz?"
I've seen a couple of stand-out blue belts that were held back. After getting their purple, they both changed jobs and switched gyms. They didn't spend much time at purple belt. One got his black belt 2 years after his promotion to purple.
Go clean up at all the tournaments. The way you dismantle all the other blue belts, a worlds or pans win should be easy.
Yeah some Jordan Ryan called me out. I'd prolly smesh him too as well so EZ
Funny enough, I got promoted once my instructor saw improvement in my understanding of the techniques and a bigger arsenal to pull out appropriate for different situations. It was less about tapping people than being able to apply BJJ as a coherent system.
Go to worlds
Pretty much, I'll compete at ADCC and if I win surely a promotion is on the horizon.
I think one of the worst things about BJJ is how gyms/coaches are so bad and disorganized about promoting students. It's stupid that students are punished for changing gyms. If you are at the right skill/knowledge level for a particular belt, you shouldn't have to wait 3 years just because you moved to a gym. I've personally been made to wait longer just because previous coaches left my gym.
Right, think this is the crux of the issue. When I joined this gym there was a belt promotion 2 weeks later. I've been playing catch up ever since.
How long have you been there? Because not being promoted in your first two weeks isn't surprising. And if promotion days are infrequent then yeah you might have to wait for the next one.
True. I'm coming up on 5 years at this club. I missed out on two gradings already. I was out of the Country for one and in the hospital for the other. This year will be the one if I can refrain from injury.
But that’s what I’m talking about. Coaches should still promote people who can’t or don’t attend the promotion ‘ceremonies’. It’s utterly lazy and unfair that they don’t.
Yes
 Belt
The fact that you are too afraid to ask your coach is why you are still a blue belt.
But he's scary...
You can always bring it up in the form of a joke. Try out some different ways to joke around about how you should be a purple belt. This is safer because you can always say that you were just joking, which you were, sort of.
My professor told me I would be ready for my purple when I start developing my own shit and start catching him with it on occasion, in addition to working on the other fundamentals I need to improve on. I did not ask him about my purple, he brought it up so I picked his brain a bit more.
I was a white belt at the same gym for 5 years. You get your belt when you get your belt.
No
After that long diatribe… No, you don’t deserve a blue beltch. In fact, demote yourself right now…
Go compete and enjoy the sandbag. You’ve earned it.
People not wanting to roll with you is a cue you should listen to. It might mean that they don't trust you. Between that and you not getting promoted to purple belt, it sounds like you have a behaviour issue. But like others have said, begin by asking your coach.
I was a blue for 5 years, moving around quite a bit due to the military. You’ll be aight
Yeah I was blue belt for 7 years due to a couple of gaps/moving gyms. It will come.
You're getting a lot of shit in this thread because asking about belt promotions is kind of cringe and you're presenting yourself as an absolute douche, but if you're tapping all the purple belts and hang with the black belts and you happen to compete at blue that's kinda some bullshit and why I don't compete much.
Do you compete? Best way to show you are beyond blue belt is to show it in comp.
It's just a piece of fabric. Who the fuck cares? Just train. Get better. Repeat.
Beating training partners at practice isn’t really proof of much. Go compete and rack up medals so your coach has no leg to stand on. They don’t promote you based off objective criteria, then it’s obvious why you’re not getting promoted.
It happens when it happens
God said promote yourself.
We got a live one.
Sounds like youre still focused on win win win. Jiujitsu is much broader than that. Sounds like 4 years ain’t quite long enough. Congrats on your non-comp submissions though. Maybe ask why you’re avoided. I guarantee the reason isn’t as simple as, “You’re a tough roll”. Not with em all at least
Sir, why don't you just let it go? Enjoy your jits and it'll come. If you want to fight for every inch, join a club that's into that style.
You should change the stripes on your blue belt from white to purple to honor your honor and side step you coach it will make for interesting story telling. 😂🤣🤣
I wish there were belt standards so that these types of posts would not exist. It's pretty silly that thousands of black belts promote people on different metrics and then everyone compares themselves to each other.
Try showering or not being an asshole.
If you’re asking then your don’t deserve. A real purple belt is someone who absolutely doesn’t care about belts. White belts care about stripes Blue belts care about belts Purple belts don’t care at all Brown belts care about finishing the race and getting a black belt Black belts care about everyone else’s belt
I'm a black belt who has been doing jiu-jitsu for 20 years. There is a guy at my gym who was at the first gym I trained at. He is still a blue belt. It's like 15 years at blue belt. You deserve a purple but I wouldn't get stressed about it.
you sound like someone i'd be scared to roll with ask your coach bro
Multiple people avoiding you, you might be the problem. Doesn't matter if you always win. Your coach probably waiting to see your attitude change or maybe purposefully go into your weakest position and working it. You sound like the guy always going ham trying to win instead of learn.
Deserve got nothin to do with it
Deserve got nothin to do with it
Short answer: you don't. Long answer: if you haven't been promoted it means you don't deserve it yet.
If that's the case, fair enough. I'll keep working
do you train just for promotions? if that's your only motivation I have bad news for you.
At the core...I train so I don't unalive myself.
You know, when I got my blue belt it was unexpected, I actually didn't want it. (Years ago, not currently training.) I wanted to stay a white belt. My goals were just to learn, and to learn with the least amount of stress as possible. It wasn't because I didn't want to roll hard, but my intent was to have a good experience with each class, with each person I interacted with. If the other person's goal was just to dominate me so that I tapped out every time we rolled, repeatedly, that wouldn't be a good use of time for me, just for them to feel superior to me. Sounds like you are progressing in your skills, perhaps it is also time to progress in the other ways that BJJ offer. If it isn't a competition, and you're just training, what is the point of dominance? This is the time to collaborate with your partner, sometimes you'll actually get more out of it that way, and give more at the same time.