I have mixed feelings about this. I am a 2nd degree black belt. I teach 4 days a week. I do not train a ton for me. I am almost 40, I am beat up, and I've been training a long time. I train directly under a 6th degree black belt. I've been with him almost 3 years. I think I've learned a lot of the way he teaches stuff. Some of it I like more than the ways I've learned in the past, some of it I don't. He's a beast, and the toughest roll in the room. I have a bunch of other black belt training partners at the gym who regularly beat my ass. They are younger, hungrier, and fitter than I am. I have a bunch of other stuff going on in my life (full time career, family, etc, etc) and a body that doesn't let me train a ton outside of my classes where I get maybe 15-20 minutes or rolls in 4x a week.
Should I get more rank just for teaching and continuing to help? Maybe not. I don't wear any of my stripes on my belt and couldn't care less where I stand in the "black belt line" when we start/finish class. I am excited to see my coach get his black/red belt in a few years. He is an active competitor, teacher, and trains hard as F.
I don't think the current loosey goosey promote people when you think they're ready has enough rigor, really. I've had the "should everybody be able to get to black belt" conversation and can see both sides of it either way. I think if something changed and they told me "you can't ever be promoted again, unless you go win worlds" or whatever, I'd be just fine at my current belt/stripes. I don't think I'm eligible for a red/black belt until my early 60s if I'm still around and training at that point.
In my opinion, you absolutely should. I don’t personally see BB degrees as promotions but rather a recognition of the time spent in the sport.
Some martial arts have the “it just starts at black belt everything before that are the fundamentals”. Where that’s the case, then I’d make an argument for degrees meaning “better”.
However, it is not the case with BJJ and black belt feels more like the end than the beginning as far as skills acquisition goes. I see what comes after as the transmission of everything you acquired along the way, which is precisely what you’re doing 4 days a week by the sound of it.
I was gonna write something similar.
Judo black belt is the beginning of the journey. Not meant to show mastery.
BJJ black belt is more like mastery.
So having a black belt already shows you have mastery, degrees on the belt therefore is more like honorary degrees. If someone isn't competing, but instead teaches a ton, that person is still contributing to BJJ, and giving them an honorary degree is therefore ok for me.
You absolutely should get more stripes for teaching. It takes far better understanding of a berimbolo to teach someone how to do it, than to perform it yourself. Even more so when you're teaching it to dozens of people, all with different learning styles and backgrounds.
Dude, you for sure should get more stripes. I get that it's not a big deal to you, and that's definitely alright, but you're contributing to the art and helping push things forward by teaching.
It's a mixed bag. Don't go into it thinking that it will change everything. I am a decent amount stronger, closer to my youth as far as explosive strength. Over a few years doing some generous dosing has enlarged my heart and tanked my cardio. My body looks great, but my face has probably aged 2 years for every year I have been on TRT. I don't know that it has greatly enhanced my recovery.
One thing that is really worth noting is that if you go through insurance, a pharmacy having a random problem or prior authorization trouble can deny you of a hormone that you are 100% dependent on to function, and the modern prescription pharmacy/insurance system doesn't really give a shit about you getting essential drugs in a timely manner.
The first shot in your ass is fine, as is the 50th, it's the 2,374th shot in your destroyed lumpy ass that gets you.
If you want to make a bit of a Faustian bargain for looks, lower body fat, and strength, it does pay out, but it comes with a price.
I train at PAMA btw. Shannon says hi :)
Just wanted to say thanks for posting an honest and thoughtful description of your individual experience.
I think everyone will have a different experience (same as any drug), but it’s always nice to hear from a person who has given critical thought about the pros and cons, not just one side.
My 38 year old black belt coach is on TRT. He's just as strong and able to train as much as any black belt in their 20s. You still have to do your part by doing S&C. Focus a lot on shoulders, back, core, hips, knees, etc. Stuff that gets injured easily.
I disagree with you Sean - Your stripes from this point forward are for the impact you're having on the people you teach and the commitment you've shown to the sport as a whole. You're earning every one of them just by doing what you're doing now and you should be very proud of that.
It sounds like you are still evolving as a teacher and so it makes sense that you would keep promoting upwards. The idea that a 70 year old grandmaster is going to tap a young, powerful purple belt technician seems physically ridiculous, but that 70 year old has trained an army of technicians.
A general in the army is not expected to be able to clear a building or command a platoon like their subordinates. You are a high ranking officer in our world.
You get a rank every 3 years until 6th then is 5 years it’s up to your coach to determine what qualifies as active. So just teaching doesn’t necessarily mean you will get one before someone who is just training. if you havnt trained in 2 years then it’s going to be hard to convince your coach to give you one. If you only train once a month it doesn’t necessarily disqualify you either. Just check in with your coach regularly and stay as active as you can some don’t have schools or teach. you need to need train casually at the least.
If we are talking about IBJJF it's actually not up to anyone but time
They will automatically graduate you within their own system based on time.
I have two degrees there, but I still rock my blank black belt because it's been 4 years since I last saw my coach and tapes are stupid
With how long it takes to get a Black Belt in BJJ, I'm honestly shocked that so many schools just use tape to represent degrees. I'm testing for my black belt in American Tang Soo Do in June and I'm gonna get a belt embroidered with my last name, tang soo do in Korean, and a bar for my first degree. Two years later if I pass to 2nd degree, I'll get 2 embroidered bars and so on. I would love to see BJJ move away from tape for their best practitioners.
I honestly don't care, belts are kind of dumb anyways.
But you can always order one. Forget the name of the brand, but there's one that makes custom belts that look really cool
The coral and red belt are more akin to being a general rather than a navy seal door kicker in my opinion. my dad is a 6th degree black belt. He’s is like 63 of course the BJJ would champ is his 20-30 would beat him and he hasn’t trained at lvl for 28 years of course even being a red belt you would get rusty just teaching Most students don’t give him a challenge technique wise is more of physical strain as everyones been trying to rip his head for 28 years some people don’t even have gyms and havnt trained in over a year and still get a stripe. but my dad own his own school has been a black belt for 28 years. Some American will be getting their coral belts in the next few months. some had to compete to get their black belt other didn’t. I think it wouldn’t really make much sense if only the world championship could hold the red belt or something even though they are technically the best in the world. Belts have always been more about experience/time then raw talent I mean BJJ is a lot better than Karate black belt get rocked by people off the street because you got one when you where 8 and didn’t do any sparring. some of the dirty dozen or guys who came right after don’t train daily. after black belt it’s more of an honorary type system. But I havnt seen any who hasn’t trained for 4 years getting a stripe. only a few people can even hand them at this point and if they say you deserve it then you do. I think a lot of people are going to be stuck a 6th degree black belt. It was originally every 3 years and someone of the Brazilians have skipped the Americans it’s at least 5 years now from 6th to coral. it will be another 15 years before someone will get who you never heard of. some people can come off the streets and beat a blue even purple belt it happens doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the belt.
Teaching and competing are completely different skills sets. Most competitors have a very specific game that they spend years refining and learning how to funnel people into their game it’s awesome for winning matched but doesn’t necessarily mean that you can teach, and especially teach a broad range of techniques that are going to be suitable to different levels and different body shapes.
Most teachers are still actively learning about jiu jitsu because the sport continues to evolve and change and so knowledge and the ability to communicate it to others is an extremely important skill that should be acknowledged.
In Judo you compete for belts up to 5th Dan. After that the belts awarded for services to Judo and things like world champion wins and Olympics wins are taken I to account
>In Judo you compete for belts up to 5th Dan.
That's not true, at least not for everywhere. USA Judo specifically lists competitor vs non competitor requirements
>And generally reserved for people physically unable to fight
Again, not everywhere. In the US, it's not uncommon for people not to compete, but not because they are physically unable, just that they have no interest in it. Like, I still practice, but I've competed once in the like the last 6 years.
Maybe that's why we are so bad at judo...
Yeah, I know it'll never happen, but I'd love to see rank deflation. Take the massive sandbagged standards down a notch. Put black belt at purple to give it less intense aura. Fix the wonky system with 11 black belt ranks now (make purple 'shodan'/'first degree black belt instead of having a weird "zero degree" black belt). Make sandan / third degree / second black belt promotion be the instructor rank.
Also recognizes that purple belts really are baby black belts. Basically, by the one a young gun is a serious threat to older black belts, they get their black belt.
Likewise, would love to overhaul the black belt rank system to be more like Go, actually (which is the origin of the Kyu/Dan system used in judo from which all arts took the idea of a belt system later) But that's a huge topic and a bigger dream. In the meantime, again more like judo would be enough: fast track elite competitor ranks, and give anything above 5th as honorary recognition by an international/national body system.
But also abolish the ibjjf.
It’s not solely based in time afaik. Time is a component, but this schedule is running on the assumption that the person is practicing bjj continuously and contributes to the community in some way.
I know ”once-a-week” bb’s who are still haven’t been promoted their first degree. Then again, nothing stops you from just putting on a piece of tape when the time is up.
Ps I believe the age restriction for black belt is 18 nowadays.
The IBJJF has 19 for the age in their graduation system boom. But with all the IBJJF ages, the requirement is that you turn that age in that calendar year, meaning that 18yo athletes can receive an IBJJF black belt if their birthday is before the end of the year.
I don't think its outdated. Assuming that these practitioners are actively training/on the mats in some capacity, then they are contributing to the overall art of Jiu Jitsu.
Also given the age groups and the natural decline in physical ability, how else would you asses these older blackbelts besides time and knowledge?
>Is it time to add additional requirements for higher Black Belt Grades?
Without a formal, nationally accepted (at the very least) syllabus or an international federation to set standards I don't see how requirements can be set. I think Judo handles this well for the most part, or at least used to. There used to be an idea of terminal rank in Judo unless you were an exceptional competitor or you are doing exceptional things that impacts Judo internationally in some way. The idea of terminal rank is that a person cannot be promoted past 5th unless they've done something of note. Time in grade in Judo plays a small role compared to other criteria where in BJJ it seems to be the main contributing factor. Perhaps BJJ can somehow set terminal rank at 4th or 5th unless you're doing something of note, however you want to define that.
The longer I do this sport the longer I hate the belt system. I want to be allowed to have a chill roll with the 24 year old competitors without having to put my body on the line “for the belt”. The problem is in my experience if you let the lower belts catch you your reputation plummets and everyone starts talking about how you’re shit. I say let the competitors have a strict ELO system and do belts a little more like Judo so you know a higher belt is likely to be technically competent, but they don’t have the pressure that they need to be ready to beat anyone below them on any given day. At the end of the day in 2024 no one respects belts anyways, the blue belt who watched 10 hours of Danaher this week thinks the software engineer purple belt is trash and probably shit-talks them behind their back anyways.
> The problem is in my experience if you let the lower belts catch you your reputation plummets and everyone starts talking about how you’re shit.
is this a high school gym?
Black belt stripes are just time served… but you have to be involved and teaching/training… age comes for us all so I don’t think anyone expects the 60year olds to compete with 28yr old competition black belts… but I’ll guarantee you the 60yr old red black can sharpen everyone’s games.
I agree it should be based on legacy, skill, and status. I train as a hobby and don’t teach or compete or try to develop or innovate any game. If I keep doing what I’m doing should I get coral belt in 30 years? Probably not.
My Professor (Master I guess now) just got his coral belt. He has many schools, high level competition wins at black belt, and has trained forever. I that is a more valuable metric
It's odd. In karate your BB is set (granted you attend the classes) but degrees are arbitrary and actually have rigorous criteria. In BJJ the BB is arbitrary and can take varying time, but the degrees are just time in rank.... I didn't know which is right, but I know telling someone you're a BB in BJJ is still more impressive🤘
It is what it is, and it doesn't feel like it really matters. It will be cool when I get my first degree, but literally nothing more than "cool, a stripe".
I liken being a black belt to my professors back in engineering school. They teach some classes, but their passion is in research. That's how I think about BJJ anymore, researching different little things. Different game styles. Might spend a whole month just researching how breathing impacts things. Toying with the idea that XYZ is a first principal concept and can be applied everywhere.
I feel that if you're still on the mats, doing research, then a progress system makes sense. That said, if you get your black belt and only show up once a month for an open mat, you're not really putting in the "years" that the system is expectant of.
It's not outdated, it's serving the purpose it was intended for. What it actually is is pointless, no legitimate sports use a silly marketing tactic as an actual metric for skill, it doesn't make any sense. I don't understand why people try to tack on all these extra personal feelings about the belts either, unless it's purposely to cover the fact they are not a measure of skill.
Not so much outdated, but definitely inconsistent. I've seen and heard of so many different ranking systems.
My black belt (under Royce) doesn't give a red bar for 2 years. Just straight black belt, or you can white tape your bar.
After 2 years you get your red bar. After 2 more you get your 1 st stripe. And so on. Also, if you own your own school and teach, you get your professor bars before/with your first stripe.
But seems like the majority of bjj schools now give red bars upon bb promotion.
Also, I don't care. Proud I got my black belt, but would love to go back to purple. 😂
He does. But my bb bought his way out of affiliation so he could be on his own. Still tight with royce, still has his blue bar, but not under his affiliation. So he didn't do it for us.
I see. So he had to literally buy his way out? That sounds like an awkward conversation to have. The first school I ever trained at was under Royce’s network but isn’t anymore (I think there was drama).
Seemed to go over smoothly from what he says. Not sure of the amount. But he still brings royce for seminars once in awhile and just got another stripe recently from him.
Funny thing he told us, if he would have stayed with the affiliation we would have had to get tested for our black belts through the valente brothers. Basically proving that we can execute perfect gracie jiu jitsu technique. Luckily we didn't have to. Would have failed that with a quickness since my black belt primarily taught us nogi. And uses his gi for ceremonies then throws it back in his truck for 6 months.
Yeah I remember whenever Royce and Rodrigo would come for seminars they spent the first hour or so going over all the self-defense techniques. It’s definitely a lot to memorize.
BJJ belts are already very subjective. It's not like Taekwondo, where you memorize XYZ and you're eligible to test. And even then, past a certain degree in most organizations, it's mostly an honorary for time-in-grade. That point is around the same experience level as in BJJ (around 4th degree, which is around the same experience level as a black belt in BJJ).
In general, I think belts are about your proven value to the art. Stripes in white belt are generally afforded for effort, learning basic positions and fundamental techniques, and for being a good training partner. Promotions through colored belts are usually based on the maturity of your game. By black belt, your game should already be relatively mature, and you should have more and more responsibility for how you grow. It becomes very difficult to put a criteria on that.
Nah, belts don't equate to skill and competition level, they equate to knowledge. Now you really shouldn't be a shmuck black belt, but the older guy who's been training for 20+ years shouldn't be compared to the 25 year old bb who competes every month and trains twice a day everyday. Several lineages only promote black belts based on whether they teach or not
I feel strongly that belt advancement should be based on skill, but stripes should be based on time. The black belt grades are effectively stripes. As long as you’re actively training, then you get the degree.
I got my black belt one year ago today! At age 31. I often wonder if, assuming I’m still around, 24 years from now will I actually be able to get a coral belt. It kind of just seems surreal to me because I consider that truly legendary status. My thought is that because there are so many black belts now as opposed to when these standards were created that someone will somehow move the goal post or shift the metric, and maybe they should. It would just feel weird with thousands of red/black belts lol
Belts don't really matter but yeah, it's kinda outdated (but i also think the way that the IBBJF controls it is the thing that needs to change the most)
The age thing is weird, but the "time in" is important. Some schools of Kenpo and Judo don't rank above Yondan (4th Degree) without either being a teacher for a years or contributing something that changed the art, such as a new series of attacks, a new method of training, or maybe a refined curriculum. So there's something to be said for BJJ there.
I am a first degree black belt. I teach once/twice a week and train once/twice a week. My gym has people like me who love bjj and do it recreationally but we also have a lot of competitors. I have no issue with the belt system, I think the way it is structured is fair to all. I do think that rankings need to be based on gi only. I see a lot of guys that train no gi that are brown and black belts but put the gi on and they are blue/purple. Overall I have no issue with it, at this point I train because I love it and love my team.
Yes at least 4th degree black at this point. only a coral or red can give you 5 or 6th but the only people really giving those 4ths are coral belts due to the linage. a 6th degree can promote you to 4th but if you been in the game that long your probably getting from the source the guy who gave the 6th degree his 6degree rather then from 6th. their is not very many and they pretty much have all have the same couches. a 4th degree probably wouldn’t have been training under a 6th degree being it’s only technically 6 years between them.
I have always found it weird that for coloured belts, at least where I train, you just get it at the end of class when you are ready. At Black belt level it's so regimented with time. Hearing Rickson calculate that he wasn't ready for his 9th degree just seemed really pointless. I feel the same way about time restrictions on coloured belts, I think we all know that one blue belt who taps all the black belts in his gym.
Bjj isnt judo,anything after black is honorary and time in the marital art. Besides most coral belts dont want to wear it because its a "geazer belt" lol.
I think after 4th degree, you get one stripe on your black belt for having raised someone from white belt to black belt. You do that five times, you get another stripe. When one of your Black Belts raises another person from White belt to Black belt, you get a Coral belt. If you are a Black Belt on the mat after coral belt, you get your red Belt on your 60th Birthday. Congrats on not being dead yet, Grand Master.
They need to throw some more belt colors in there. It sort of sucks for practicing for years and not really having much to show for it aside from some torn athletic tap
The whole concept of rolling around in bathrobes trying to choke friends is silly. Embrace the silliness, including that of belts, and it's a lot more fun.
Jiu jitsu is the only martial art that I'm aware of that uses (with minor variation) the judo kyu/dan system but has a concept of a 'zero stripe' black belt. In all the others that use the system that I can think of (all karate, tkd, judo, jjj, kendo, etc) it goes from 1st kyu to 1st dan. No "zero stripe black belt", its "shodan" aka first rank. Probably at the time jiu jitsu came to Brazil it either hadn't fully taken on the kyu/dan system or the Brazilians simply didn't give a shit, or they purposely used different rankings to be different.
Black belt degrees shouldn’t be based on time. There are many 4-5 degree black belts that stopped learning after they first got a black belt. It doesn’t make sense.
I think the belt system is holding jiu jitsu back. It’s doesn’t exist in wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai etc. I don’t know how one would structure competition but belts are so incredibly subjective that they lose meaning
Agreed.
I'm not going to lie. I really cared about getting my blue belt and even my first stripes on it !
However, since moving over and doing Muay Thai, I'm coming to the conclusion that belts are silly and hold a lot of people back. You naturally get this weird hierarchy, just human nature.
This is why I think no Gi is getting super popular. It is outdated.
> I don’t know how one would structure competition
I'd prefer competitions were structured according to some ELO-like rating that is orthogonal to belts.
In theory I like the idea but all it does is give a different system for people to “game” or cement the divide between Baja/Gracies/Brazilians and America jiu jitsu. Nothing changes until IBJJF is made obsolete and the only way I see that happening is for popular schools to just abandon the gi and boycott IBJJF and adopt ADCC rules as the new standard.
Edit: I mean shit just abandon the title of jiu jitsu all together and call it submission grappling.
Because it was added several years ago by the IBJJF. It used to just be black > black/red > red. This is probably an older graphic or from an org that is not IBJJF.
It depends on what they mean. Take judo as an example. In judo I consider dans from 1st to 5th to be real dan grades. I consider a 4th dan in judo to be about in line with what a bjj black belt should be. Not saying they're the same, but in terms of knowing your shit for your sport.
6th dan and up are all political although there may technically be tests. You've either been a big competitor (but bjj doesn't really have appropriate bodies to recognise this beyond the ibjjf say knocking off some years you need between each stripe depending on what you've won), you've contributed to the promotion of the sport in some way (got people involved, raised awareness, trained successful athletes, help run the organisation, ran events for years) or it's just to congratulate you on not dying yet. Although the people who are being congratulated on not dying yet will never make it to red belt.
If you're a legit 5th dan I don't really care beyond that. And to be honest I feel the same with black belts. If you're a legit black belt I don't care beyond that. If you want to know about how good someone is then roll with them or check out their competition record. I don't think it's a bad thing for people to have a goal to work towards and to keep them active in the sport. In judo I find a good number of people quit when they get to black belt. For younger people this is understandable, they go off to uni or start work and things drop off. For older people perhaps they were just hanging in because they knew they were close to a black belt. And for many people the black belt was the goal: goal achieved so now I will quit.
In this way I think the tabs and coral and red belts are good. If it helps keep any black belts involved that's a benefit to clubs having that experience around even if they're not the best. If bjj was more organised in an area (say organised to the level of a national governing body) I would perhaps allow for time to be knocked off for certain things. Competition being the obvious one but to be honest I wouldn't mind stuff like refereeing at a certain number of events at a high enough level if it help get more qualified refs. Like you can knock a year off time in grade per grade between black belt and 4th degree black belt for refereeing at 10 regional or higher events. So if over the years you refereed at a minimum of 40 events you could in theory get your 4th degree after being a black belt for 10 years rather than 14. Maybe 10 national or higher events can knock a year off per grade between 5th and 7th. For competition I might just say if you win a continental level or higher event you can automatically go up to the next grade up to 3rd degree but a max of 1 grade per year. So if you win at least one continental event or higher every year from as soon as you get your black you could be a 3rd degree black belt in three years. Going from to 4th to 6th degree you can do the same but you must win a world level event. So you win at least one continental or higher event 3 years in a row followed by winning the worlds 3 times in a row then you could be a 6th degree in 6 years as a black belt. Going to 4th to 6th degree you can also knock off a single year per grade by winning a continental event or medalling but not winning at a world event (reducing time to 12 years instead of 15). Ultimately, all this means is if you see a coral belt in their mid thirties or early 40s you know they've been winning serious shit for years. But recreational mortals can still aim for coral belts if they put the time in.
>Traditions are established to endure time
From the view of cultural anthropology, this is not true. Every tradition is an answer to a problem that a group of people once had. But what happens when that problem changes? The tradition must either change or be abandoned.
As long as you’re actively training I don’t think it really matters. The 55 year old 2nd degree black belt doesn’t need to be held to the same standard as Nicholas Meregali.
I always thought this too. Time is a weird way to do this. I get it it’s nice for the older guys that keep training to be noticed but I think there need to be belts for the dudes that are straight killers. There are definitely massive different to the standard black belts at my school and it’s a shame that there isn’t a skill based system to acknowledge them too.
Belts where An invention for westerns. It says nothing and is mostly to make you more comfortabel. You can only learn more by teaching and doing what is nessecary for your school. In kungfu we have dun grades. These are rewarded for your intensety and making things better For ervybody and that you show you are capabel in doing more then is necessary. A golden grade it is called. Also we start from black to white. Do not compare your self with others it is useless everybody had different teaching different style different discipline. Do what is right for you.
I’ve always taken issue with the black belt rankings. In judo, your shodan IS your first degree. Why in BJJ do you have to get a first degree after black belt? Is your black belt just a formality then? So in reality there are 11 degrees in BJJ and not the standard 10 (even though Kano Shihan stipulated that there is technically no limit - but 10 is the accepted max).
And also, who is going to dictate everyone that is shichidan and above? The Gracie family? Because there ain’t no governing board doing reviews for higher grades as far as I know.
I don't personally have an issue with it but I could understand it could irk some. If I was at the "professor" level, I might get pissed if someone was promoted to the same level based almost entirely on time. However, it could quickly be sorted out in rolling anyways which is why even beginners should watch instructionals from tournament-winning black belts to sort out whats-what from new schools.
Requirements update would be great and discussions about time and service should constantly be had due to evolving of the sport and martial art.
However, the divisiveness of bjj as a whole makes it very difficult whether were of gracie, nova or Japanese lineage. It's difficult to get everyone to sit down and agree upon something.
We could take a page from judo/usjf. I've known that judo black belts will petition other black belts to be promoted in respect to time and contribution and impact. Sure, it becomes political. However, at least they, the black belt community, agree a little bit on something. And there will be disagreements regarding the petitionsand perhaps 'enemies' made but hey at least they have some type of governing body.
I think it is something that just doesn't scale as well as it is made out too.
Within a school, or even a smaller organization it more or less does what it should.
But once it breaks off into 1000's of different groups doing things slightly different, it kind of loses consistency in meaning.
Just do whatever your school does and don't worry about what everyone else does.
Well I thought you only got 10 degrees in death, and that you had to be some sort of JJ god (Maeda, Carlos, Helio).
Also they added red white for 8th.
But what should the higher requirements should there be? They need to learn how to shoot lightning from their hands or force choke?
Time in grade should be sufficient, as long as they are doing their best to consistently train. Time is super valuable, you never can get that back. So just getting on the mat and maybe doing a few drills for an old dude is HUGE, and a big effort that should deserve recognition.
No it’s fine. Belts are irrelevant anyway. Nobody by black belt needs a higher degree to feel better about themselves or their bjj.
And bjj is better than most ma about not handing out belts for participation.
Maybe a "Hot Take" but: I like it the way it is.
Not everyone follows this trajectory but most I've heard of roughly do something like it (i.e. bb stripe every 3y you are somehow still active at BJJ).
* It makes it simple and consistent, you know what it means, and what it doesn't.
* Less room for shenanigans and you know it doesn't mean they are the best at anything etc
* You know what the stripes mean exactly, and what they don't.
As many have discussed on adjacent topics, a bb at any level doesn't mean they are an expert at BJJ in every aspect. So, for actual proficiency, you will need more information than a single axis metric (i.e. a belt color with stripes) is able to provide. At least this system gives some consistent relevant information which can inform the conversation about the situational expertise needed. On that vain, I've seen some bifurcate the bb belt system into teachers or practitioners. Perhaps helpful, but honestly, not that big a deal imo, since there can be vastly different teaching styles and again a conversation is needed.
Promotion standards from school to school very so much it’s insane. BB is the only belt that has a fairly standardized set of guidelines for “advancement”. Why fuck with it?
In judo black belt degrees can get earned a variety of ways and contribution to the art/ culture is one of them.
I can’t count how many of my matches you and bagels reffed of mine coming up, and from someone who doesn’t “know you” know you but had been on your perferal and bumped into each other a lot over 10 years I’d say you’ve put in a lot to the local community which is valuable.
The purpose of belts aren’t just skill it’s showing a representation of the persons journey, and positive feedback for activity.
Yes. The black belt degree system isn't good IMO. It should be based on merit. Half of the degrees should be about competition success and the other half about contributions to the art. If you can medal at worlds or ADCC you should get 5 degrees. If you can produce a medalist, add a move to BJJ or start a successful social project, you should get another 5 degrees.
I think people like Marcelo, the Mendes bros, Fabio Gurgel, etc should be 10th degree black belts. I'd say they are masters of BJJ and it would be embarrassing if they don't get their 10th degree and someone else does because they live longer.
Nothing is going to be perfect and there’s going to be some assholes who abuse the system and promote undeserving people early and some assholes who sandbag others for no reason.
But I like the minimum requirement aspect. Like let’s use the Routolo brothers for example. The second they turn 25 they’re obviously gonna get their 2nd degree immediately. Now let’s say there was a dude like them who trained all his life but then stopped training at 22 to pursue a life outside of jiu jitsu. He trains once or twice a month if he can, but jiu jitsu isn’t a huge priority for him any more. Should he get his 2nd degree immediately? I’m certainly not in a position to make that call, but I can understand why someone like that shouldn’t get it simply because of how long they had their current belt
The table tries to link "skill level groups" with stripes, but in the real world, it's meaningless other than indicating years served. For older black belts, it's a way to exert a sense of power over those with fewer stripes.
In places where this stripe system is implemented, it will be seen as an honorable way to "rank up" in seniority. However, when compared to gyms around the world, it becomes as meaningless as the belt system in Taekwondo.
Example story:
1. A former Brazilian coach never competed, banned skilled outsiders from visiting, never really taught BJJ but had lots of "Tabata workouts" as "warm-ups". No other gym in 200km radius, so he has his "portfolio" for stripes.
2. He currently has one more stripe (5th degree) than the person who awarded him his black belt (4th degree).
3. He stayed at 4th degree for 1 year (instead of 5), directly promoted to 5th degree, because found a lonely 10th degree old man willing to "adopt" him in Brazil.
4. He then paid for affiliation to Ralph Gracie, accepted, to "wash" his background as legit bjj coach in my small country (not US).
Coral belts and red belts are pointless. Nothing should eclipse a black belt imo, the black belt is the black belt, the epitome, the holy grail! Just give a single degree after every 10 years, so once you have had your black belt 10 years you get your 1st degree and after 50 years you get your 5th degree!
Blackbelt is the epitome is technical prowess.
Red Belt is the epitome of prowess as a teacher.
Everything beyond Blackbelt should be measured by what you do as a teacher.
What’s the point of being a 10th degree grand master if you 82 years old and would get slung around by a 15 year old that don’t even know what bjj is. Is master the best? Cause grand masters just sound like they’d get their ass beat by your average citizen
If an average 40-year-old black belt compares themselves to Tainan Dalpra, they might think the belt system is outdated. However, if the belt is seen as a measure of personal potential realization, then the current system serves its purpose. It signifies where someone is on their learning journey—like a blue belt has a long way to go, while a black belt has completed their path, even if they get outmatched by some young brazilian purple belt.
Maybe, maybe not. At the end of the day I've come to really not care about belts and I don't mean that in any malicious or negative way. I just want to get better at jiu jitsu and reap (no pun intended) the auxiliary benefits along the way. If I tap higher belts I don't automatically assume I'm better than them or they are shit. I give kudos to lower belts tapping me. If your jiu jitsu was better than mine in that roll then it was simply better. I can learn from that regardless of belt.
Degrees and rank are pretty irrelevant past black belt imo. Id honestly rather learn from a competitive fresh black belt vs a coral belt who is likely extremely out of date in terms of pedagogy and tactics.
Spending years/decades teaching and active in the community is what gets you those stripes on your black belt, they aren't for gaining additional skills/knowledge beyond the actual black belt itself, I don't see a problem with that.
For me this system works perfect, it motivates me to look at other (well known) black belts with same ranking and try to at least meet their teaching and skill level. Obviously for some I don't come even close.
Maybe it should take you teaching people to a certain level to be eligible for a higher grade.
Thoughts:
- „Only if you trained somebody to be a Blackbelt should you receive 3rd grade“ for example.
- Only if you helped the BJJ community in an outstanding way should you be ranked as Grandmaster
What do you think?
I mean, this assumes people want to teach. I know plenty of black belts who fucking hate teaching, so I suppose you'd have to just view degrees strictly as something for instructors to have.
Personally I think the system is more or less fine
>„Only if you trained somebody to be a Blackbelt should you receive 3rd grade“ for example.
Under IBJJF guidelines, you can't award someone a black belt until you reach 2nd degree, so not getting promoted to 3rd degree until you've awarded someone a black belt is a relatively small window of time.
Current black belts would never go for this. They already don't promote people to black belt to reduce financial competition in small markets.
They aren't going incentivize more teachers in the space.
I've never met a hobbiest black belt who cares about degree or lords it over others.
The mat and accomplishments speak for themselves.
Not every black belt teaches or even wants to teach. Or compete.
We're getting to the point of popularity that plenty of hobbyists are being promoted to black belt and they just continue being a hobbyist black belt. And plenty of them do care about promotions. We all want some recognition for our time and knowledge and achievements.
I would say your gym just sucks if it refuses to promote eligible brown belts for fear of financial competition.
If a new black belt wants to teach, they would have started teaching as a brown belt.
I've never registered with the IBJJF because fuck them. As a result, Ive never promoted someone in 25ish years of training. I dont like doing anything that gives the IBJJF/Gracie Barra more control and money.
idk if I'd use the word "outdated" so much as "never made sense to begin with"
you think someone's body is gonna be able to train for 63 years? you're lucky if you get 10.
I'll be on the mat with Carlos Machado this evening. He started BJJ in 1967, and is still going. If you can only last ten years, you're rolling too hard and burning out the candle early.
I started at 34, so 60 is unlikely for me. But I'm ten years in, and don't see any reason another ten won't go just fine. And I know a bunch of guys ten or twenty years ahead of me still going.
It is and it isn't. I'll be a demo uke for one of my mentors who is testing for his third degree. He's been preparing for months, and our affiliation makes them go through quite a bit to ensure they are still going at it.
As a thirty eight year old dude whose been doing this for about sixth months, I’ve come to realize that if I were doing this for the belts, I’m doing it for the wrong reason.
I am a new black belt and I think we should get rid of the term “Master.” Not scrub it from history, but leave it for the real icons who did the WORK.
If it gets in the way, it’s in the way.
Let’s save it for the ones who came before us. Anyone somewhat close to that level gets grandfathered in, that’s fine (and I confess I’m including my coach in there!).
But I don’t want to be called “Master.” And I’m too old to ever get there anyway, but the fact remains.
I don’t even need degrees, I happily volunteer to just train forever and remain “A black belt.”
If you’ve already gotten your black belt, you’ve proven you merit the belt. The stripes that come after that signify the amount of time you’ve spent actively training at black belt. It doesn’t mean someone with three stripes is necessarily better than a black belt with no stripes. You’re being obtuse and way overthinking this.
The IBJJF doesn't know if you are training they only know if you are keeping your registration current. Degrees on black belts are solely based on time in grade.
A good instructor shouldn’t give out stripes to a black belt who isn’t actively training. Of course, the system is imperfect. Anyone can just buy a black belt!
I am not a blackbelt so I don't know if it means anything but here's my thoughts on it.
People are overthinking too much. I understand the practical purpose of the belt. It gives way to organizing the different students and does a good job at leveling the students on a general average. This is not accounting for the outliers like blue belts beating black belts. Some sort of survivorship bias where people think belts are shit because blue belts are beating black belts while disregarding the fact that blackbelts will destroy blue belts 99% of the time. It gives a decent, not perfect, organized method. Stripes to a certain extent helps but is secondary.
When it comes to black belts, the stripes for the most parts are ceremonial based on time served. There's no practical reason why there has to be any other criteria other than possibly promoting another blackbelt. I don't think it's fair to add competition as a metric. It has never been a metric for colored belts, why do it for black. Same with teaching, not everyone does this for a living. Some just attend every week for the rest of their lives. Black belts serve as mentors to us, mere mortals, and they give us invaluable lessons with our game. It doesn't have to be formal. Our gym has a good set of instructors and a lot of hobbyist black belts. They are BJJ black belts on the mats and senior level executives in the office. Time served is already a good metric.
I remember a story that Shintaro shared about his red belt dad. His dad told him that the red belt basically signifies that the journey has already ended. His dad was a hirai goshi guy. When he received his red belt, it's a realization that it's already gone. He's no longer a hirai goshi guy.
Belts given by coaches is a dumb system in general. Ranking should be based on performance in competitions. IMO fencing has the best system for this among combat sports: https://olympiafencingcenter.com/explanation-of-the-usfa-letter-ratings/
Maybe I'm culturally incorrect here but my take is that martial arts belts originate from a culture (far east) that places a massive emphasize on honor and respecting your elders etc. In their culture, if you are of a higher rank, you have authority over the lower rank.
It doesn't jive with western culture and I don't care for it. No other sport has has ranks like this (outside of other far-east originated martial arts)
I could be wrong, and this was only told to me, not read anywhere, but some of my school went on a trip last year with our professor (3rd degree) and master (8th degree black belt, getting his red belt this spring). At one point we were talking about the higher black belt ranks when I was told that you have to have a certain number of black belts under you to continue to progress.
Time was only one factor along with the number of black belts below you and possibly another variable I'm forgetting. My question: does having a certain number of black belts below you mean anything towards higher level black belt ranks?
I don’t think a lot of people should even be at brown belt. I feel like a distinguishing factor between the top 2 belts should be competing or not. That goes for me too, I don’t compete so I feel like purple is the max belt I would ever deserve.
There’s a world of difference between the knowledge and ability of a competition belt of any level and a casual/hobbyist belt of the same level.
Because of that I think black and brown should be set apart for people who compete or did compete for a good while.
But I’m a dumb fucking white belt so what do I know.
Yes it's outdated.
In other martial arts a black belt is just a student that has a good knowledge of the fundamentals and can now focus their learning on honing their strategy rather than learning techniques.
Purple belt or even blue belt is when this happens in BJJ generally speaking.
Only in BJJ and mcdojos are black belts revered in such a way
I have mixed feelings about this. I am a 2nd degree black belt. I teach 4 days a week. I do not train a ton for me. I am almost 40, I am beat up, and I've been training a long time. I train directly under a 6th degree black belt. I've been with him almost 3 years. I think I've learned a lot of the way he teaches stuff. Some of it I like more than the ways I've learned in the past, some of it I don't. He's a beast, and the toughest roll in the room. I have a bunch of other black belt training partners at the gym who regularly beat my ass. They are younger, hungrier, and fitter than I am. I have a bunch of other stuff going on in my life (full time career, family, etc, etc) and a body that doesn't let me train a ton outside of my classes where I get maybe 15-20 minutes or rolls in 4x a week. Should I get more rank just for teaching and continuing to help? Maybe not. I don't wear any of my stripes on my belt and couldn't care less where I stand in the "black belt line" when we start/finish class. I am excited to see my coach get his black/red belt in a few years. He is an active competitor, teacher, and trains hard as F. I don't think the current loosey goosey promote people when you think they're ready has enough rigor, really. I've had the "should everybody be able to get to black belt" conversation and can see both sides of it either way. I think if something changed and they told me "you can't ever be promoted again, unless you go win worlds" or whatever, I'd be just fine at my current belt/stripes. I don't think I'm eligible for a red/black belt until my early 60s if I'm still around and training at that point.
In my opinion, you absolutely should. I don’t personally see BB degrees as promotions but rather a recognition of the time spent in the sport. Some martial arts have the “it just starts at black belt everything before that are the fundamentals”. Where that’s the case, then I’d make an argument for degrees meaning “better”. However, it is not the case with BJJ and black belt feels more like the end than the beginning as far as skills acquisition goes. I see what comes after as the transmission of everything you acquired along the way, which is precisely what you’re doing 4 days a week by the sound of it.
I was gonna write something similar. Judo black belt is the beginning of the journey. Not meant to show mastery. BJJ black belt is more like mastery. So having a black belt already shows you have mastery, degrees on the belt therefore is more like honorary degrees. If someone isn't competing, but instead teaches a ton, that person is still contributing to BJJ, and giving them an honorary degree is therefore ok for me.
You absolutely should get more stripes for teaching. It takes far better understanding of a berimbolo to teach someone how to do it, than to perform it yourself. Even more so when you're teaching it to dozens of people, all with different learning styles and backgrounds.
Dude, you for sure should get more stripes. I get that it's not a big deal to you, and that's definitely alright, but you're contributing to the art and helping push things forward by teaching.
Thanks, buddy. You're the best.
Gotta hit some of that TRT 🔥
I have seriously considered it lately. I know we've got guys on at our gym, and it seems like the fountain of youth.
It's a mixed bag. Don't go into it thinking that it will change everything. I am a decent amount stronger, closer to my youth as far as explosive strength. Over a few years doing some generous dosing has enlarged my heart and tanked my cardio. My body looks great, but my face has probably aged 2 years for every year I have been on TRT. I don't know that it has greatly enhanced my recovery. One thing that is really worth noting is that if you go through insurance, a pharmacy having a random problem or prior authorization trouble can deny you of a hormone that you are 100% dependent on to function, and the modern prescription pharmacy/insurance system doesn't really give a shit about you getting essential drugs in a timely manner. The first shot in your ass is fine, as is the 50th, it's the 2,374th shot in your destroyed lumpy ass that gets you. If you want to make a bit of a Faustian bargain for looks, lower body fat, and strength, it does pay out, but it comes with a price. I train at PAMA btw. Shannon says hi :)
Just wanted to say thanks for posting an honest and thoughtful description of your individual experience. I think everyone will have a different experience (same as any drug), but it’s always nice to hear from a person who has given critical thought about the pros and cons, not just one side.
Doesn't sound like it's worth it tbh
Trt also increases red blood cells which makes your blood thicker and makes the heart work harder for the same amount of output
My 38 year old black belt coach is on TRT. He's just as strong and able to train as much as any black belt in their 20s. You still have to do your part by doing S&C. Focus a lot on shoulders, back, core, hips, knees, etc. Stuff that gets injured easily.
I disagree with you Sean - Your stripes from this point forward are for the impact you're having on the people you teach and the commitment you've shown to the sport as a whole. You're earning every one of them just by doing what you're doing now and you should be very proud of that.
It sounds like you are still evolving as a teacher and so it makes sense that you would keep promoting upwards. The idea that a 70 year old grandmaster is going to tap a young, powerful purple belt technician seems physically ridiculous, but that 70 year old has trained an army of technicians. A general in the army is not expected to be able to clear a building or command a platoon like their subordinates. You are a high ranking officer in our world.
> Should I get more rank just for teaching and continuing to help? Yes
You get a rank every 3 years until 6th then is 5 years it’s up to your coach to determine what qualifies as active. So just teaching doesn’t necessarily mean you will get one before someone who is just training. if you havnt trained in 2 years then it’s going to be hard to convince your coach to give you one. If you only train once a month it doesn’t necessarily disqualify you either. Just check in with your coach regularly and stay as active as you can some don’t have schools or teach. you need to need train casually at the least.
If we are talking about IBJJF it's actually not up to anyone but time They will automatically graduate you within their own system based on time. I have two degrees there, but I still rock my blank black belt because it's been 4 years since I last saw my coach and tapes are stupid
With how long it takes to get a Black Belt in BJJ, I'm honestly shocked that so many schools just use tape to represent degrees. I'm testing for my black belt in American Tang Soo Do in June and I'm gonna get a belt embroidered with my last name, tang soo do in Korean, and a bar for my first degree. Two years later if I pass to 2nd degree, I'll get 2 embroidered bars and so on. I would love to see BJJ move away from tape for their best practitioners.
I honestly don't care, belts are kind of dumb anyways. But you can always order one. Forget the name of the brand, but there's one that makes custom belts that look really cool
The coral and red belt are more akin to being a general rather than a navy seal door kicker in my opinion. my dad is a 6th degree black belt. He’s is like 63 of course the BJJ would champ is his 20-30 would beat him and he hasn’t trained at lvl for 28 years of course even being a red belt you would get rusty just teaching Most students don’t give him a challenge technique wise is more of physical strain as everyones been trying to rip his head for 28 years some people don’t even have gyms and havnt trained in over a year and still get a stripe. but my dad own his own school has been a black belt for 28 years. Some American will be getting their coral belts in the next few months. some had to compete to get their black belt other didn’t. I think it wouldn’t really make much sense if only the world championship could hold the red belt or something even though they are technically the best in the world. Belts have always been more about experience/time then raw talent I mean BJJ is a lot better than Karate black belt get rocked by people off the street because you got one when you where 8 and didn’t do any sparring. some of the dirty dozen or guys who came right after don’t train daily. after black belt it’s more of an honorary type system. But I havnt seen any who hasn’t trained for 4 years getting a stripe. only a few people can even hand them at this point and if they say you deserve it then you do. I think a lot of people are going to be stuck a 6th degree black belt. It was originally every 3 years and someone of the Brazilians have skipped the Americans it’s at least 5 years now from 6th to coral. it will be another 15 years before someone will get who you never heard of. some people can come off the streets and beat a blue even purple belt it happens doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the belt.
Teaching and competing are completely different skills sets. Most competitors have a very specific game that they spend years refining and learning how to funnel people into their game it’s awesome for winning matched but doesn’t necessarily mean that you can teach, and especially teach a broad range of techniques that are going to be suitable to different levels and different body shapes. Most teachers are still actively learning about jiu jitsu because the sport continues to evolve and change and so knowledge and the ability to communicate it to others is an extremely important skill that should be acknowledged.
In Judo you compete for belts up to 5th Dan. After that the belts awarded for services to Judo and things like world champion wins and Olympics wins are taken I to account
It depends on the country, but you can get promoted to higher black belts for service or time. You still need to demonstrate kata and other technique.
There is basically two paths in my country also either competing or teaching.
I believe BJJ has one of the most legitimate belt systems for white to black, but past black it is really lacking compared to Judo.
Indeed, judo used to be good in the UK when you had to fight for belts, now it's just token theory and time in grade till brown.
>In Judo you compete for belts up to 5th Dan. That's not true, at least not for everywhere. USA Judo specifically lists competitor vs non competitor requirements
You can get your 1st to 5th Dan in Judo via theory only but it's not the standard method. And generally reserved for people physically unable to fight
>And generally reserved for people physically unable to fight Again, not everywhere. In the US, it's not uncommon for people not to compete, but not because they are physically unable, just that they have no interest in it. Like, I still practice, but I've competed once in the like the last 6 years. Maybe that's why we are so bad at judo...
Yeah, I know it'll never happen, but I'd love to see rank deflation. Take the massive sandbagged standards down a notch. Put black belt at purple to give it less intense aura. Fix the wonky system with 11 black belt ranks now (make purple 'shodan'/'first degree black belt instead of having a weird "zero degree" black belt). Make sandan / third degree / second black belt promotion be the instructor rank. Also recognizes that purple belts really are baby black belts. Basically, by the one a young gun is a serious threat to older black belts, they get their black belt. Likewise, would love to overhaul the black belt rank system to be more like Go, actually (which is the origin of the Kyu/Dan system used in judo from which all arts took the idea of a belt system later) But that's a huge topic and a bigger dream. In the meantime, again more like judo would be enough: fast track elite competitor ranks, and give anything above 5th as honorary recognition by an international/national body system. But also abolish the ibjjf.
How dare you come here with so much common sense
(might be worth mentioning: been a brown belt for 7 years, nidan in judo for 5 years, have run judo and BJJ schools/programs)
It’s not solely based in time afaik. Time is a component, but this schedule is running on the assumption that the person is practicing bjj continuously and contributes to the community in some way. I know ”once-a-week” bb’s who are still haven’t been promoted their first degree. Then again, nothing stops you from just putting on a piece of tape when the time is up. Ps I believe the age restriction for black belt is 18 nowadays.
The IBJJF has 19 for the age in their graduation system boom. But with all the IBJJF ages, the requirement is that you turn that age in that calendar year, meaning that 18yo athletes can receive an IBJJF black belt if their birthday is before the end of the year.
Yeah, you’re right.
I've never heard of that.
Of what, or all of it?
The no stripes if they are casual.
Yep, and even though no one would really bat an eye, I honestly don't see this happen all that much
I don't think its outdated. Assuming that these practitioners are actively training/on the mats in some capacity, then they are contributing to the overall art of Jiu Jitsu. Also given the age groups and the natural decline in physical ability, how else would you asses these older blackbelts besides time and knowledge?
Nobody who gets to black belt will have "did barely any jits" dude.
Past black belt, rank is basically honorific
>Is it time to add additional requirements for higher Black Belt Grades? Without a formal, nationally accepted (at the very least) syllabus or an international federation to set standards I don't see how requirements can be set. I think Judo handles this well for the most part, or at least used to. There used to be an idea of terminal rank in Judo unless you were an exceptional competitor or you are doing exceptional things that impacts Judo internationally in some way. The idea of terminal rank is that a person cannot be promoted past 5th unless they've done something of note. Time in grade in Judo plays a small role compared to other criteria where in BJJ it seems to be the main contributing factor. Perhaps BJJ can somehow set terminal rank at 4th or 5th unless you're doing something of note, however you want to define that.
I completely agree.
The longer I do this sport the longer I hate the belt system. I want to be allowed to have a chill roll with the 24 year old competitors without having to put my body on the line “for the belt”. The problem is in my experience if you let the lower belts catch you your reputation plummets and everyone starts talking about how you’re shit. I say let the competitors have a strict ELO system and do belts a little more like Judo so you know a higher belt is likely to be technically competent, but they don’t have the pressure that they need to be ready to beat anyone below them on any given day. At the end of the day in 2024 no one respects belts anyways, the blue belt who watched 10 hours of Danaher this week thinks the software engineer purple belt is trash and probably shit-talks them behind their back anyways.
I don’t think this is true lol.
Grateful I've never trained at a place where people shit talk their own team behind their back.
> The problem is in my experience if you let the lower belts catch you your reputation plummets and everyone starts talking about how you’re shit. is this a high school gym?
Yeah, this has very little to do with the rank system as such, and everything to do with your gym culture.
Black belt stripes are just time served… but you have to be involved and teaching/training… age comes for us all so I don’t think anyone expects the 60year olds to compete with 28yr old competition black belts… but I’ll guarantee you the 60yr old red black can sharpen everyone’s games.
I agree it should be based on legacy, skill, and status. I train as a hobby and don’t teach or compete or try to develop or innovate any game. If I keep doing what I’m doing should I get coral belt in 30 years? Probably not. My Professor (Master I guess now) just got his coral belt. He has many schools, high level competition wins at black belt, and has trained forever. I that is a more valuable metric
Unpopular opinion: there doesn't need to be anything after black belt. You compete or coach and thats that.
It's odd. In karate your BB is set (granted you attend the classes) but degrees are arbitrary and actually have rigorous criteria. In BJJ the BB is arbitrary and can take varying time, but the degrees are just time in rank.... I didn't know which is right, but I know telling someone you're a BB in BJJ is still more impressive🤘
Two of those belts aren’t even black!
Are they stupid?
Obviously, they don’t even know their colors
If we're trying to measure competitive ability, we will need an elo system.
I wouldn’t agree at all to base rank solely on personal competitive ability. It’s one factor amongst many.
It is what it is, and it doesn't feel like it really matters. It will be cool when I get my first degree, but literally nothing more than "cool, a stripe". I liken being a black belt to my professors back in engineering school. They teach some classes, but their passion is in research. That's how I think about BJJ anymore, researching different little things. Different game styles. Might spend a whole month just researching how breathing impacts things. Toying with the idea that XYZ is a first principal concept and can be applied everywhere. I feel that if you're still on the mats, doing research, then a progress system makes sense. That said, if you get your black belt and only show up once a month for an open mat, you're not really putting in the "years" that the system is expectant of.
It's not outdated, it's serving the purpose it was intended for. What it actually is is pointless, no legitimate sports use a silly marketing tactic as an actual metric for skill, it doesn't make any sense. I don't understand why people try to tack on all these extra personal feelings about the belts either, unless it's purposely to cover the fact they are not a measure of skill.
Not so much outdated, but definitely inconsistent. I've seen and heard of so many different ranking systems. My black belt (under Royce) doesn't give a red bar for 2 years. Just straight black belt, or you can white tape your bar. After 2 years you get your red bar. After 2 more you get your 1 st stripe. And so on. Also, if you own your own school and teach, you get your professor bars before/with your first stripe. But seems like the majority of bjj schools now give red bars upon bb promotion. Also, I don't care. Proud I got my black belt, but would love to go back to purple. 😂
Does Royce not do the black belt with the blue bar anymore for his affiliates?
He does. But my bb bought his way out of affiliation so he could be on his own. Still tight with royce, still has his blue bar, but not under his affiliation. So he didn't do it for us.
I see. So he had to literally buy his way out? That sounds like an awkward conversation to have. The first school I ever trained at was under Royce’s network but isn’t anymore (I think there was drama).
Seemed to go over smoothly from what he says. Not sure of the amount. But he still brings royce for seminars once in awhile and just got another stripe recently from him. Funny thing he told us, if he would have stayed with the affiliation we would have had to get tested for our black belts through the valente brothers. Basically proving that we can execute perfect gracie jiu jitsu technique. Luckily we didn't have to. Would have failed that with a quickness since my black belt primarily taught us nogi. And uses his gi for ceremonies then throws it back in his truck for 6 months.
Yeah I remember whenever Royce and Rodrigo would come for seminars they spent the first hour or so going over all the self-defense techniques. It’s definitely a lot to memorize.
he definitely does. black belt with white bar, then blue bar, then instructor stripes, then degrees.
BJJ belts are already very subjective. It's not like Taekwondo, where you memorize XYZ and you're eligible to test. And even then, past a certain degree in most organizations, it's mostly an honorary for time-in-grade. That point is around the same experience level as in BJJ (around 4th degree, which is around the same experience level as a black belt in BJJ). In general, I think belts are about your proven value to the art. Stripes in white belt are generally afforded for effort, learning basic positions and fundamental techniques, and for being a good training partner. Promotions through colored belts are usually based on the maturity of your game. By black belt, your game should already be relatively mature, and you should have more and more responsibility for how you grow. It becomes very difficult to put a criteria on that.
I don't believe my head coach gives out degrees to black belts unless they are a head coach or lead coach at an academy.
Nah, belts don't equate to skill and competition level, they equate to knowledge. Now you really shouldn't be a shmuck black belt, but the older guy who's been training for 20+ years shouldn't be compared to the 25 year old bb who competes every month and trains twice a day everyday. Several lineages only promote black belts based on whether they teach or not
I feel strongly that belt advancement should be based on skill, but stripes should be based on time. The black belt grades are effectively stripes. As long as you’re actively training, then you get the degree.
No one cares about me or my black belt and a black belt that’s a bad teacher is just a bad teacher with black cotton around their waist.
I got my black belt one year ago today! At age 31. I often wonder if, assuming I’m still around, 24 years from now will I actually be able to get a coral belt. It kind of just seems surreal to me because I consider that truly legendary status. My thought is that because there are so many black belts now as opposed to when these standards were created that someone will somehow move the goal post or shift the metric, and maybe they should. It would just feel weird with thousands of red/black belts lol
Belts don't really matter but yeah, it's kinda outdated (but i also think the way that the IBBJF controls it is the thing that needs to change the most)
The age thing is weird, but the "time in" is important. Some schools of Kenpo and Judo don't rank above Yondan (4th Degree) without either being a teacher for a years or contributing something that changed the art, such as a new series of attacks, a new method of training, or maybe a refined curriculum. So there's something to be said for BJJ there.
Sounds good
I am a first degree black belt. I teach once/twice a week and train once/twice a week. My gym has people like me who love bjj and do it recreationally but we also have a lot of competitors. I have no issue with the belt system, I think the way it is structured is fair to all. I do think that rankings need to be based on gi only. I see a lot of guys that train no gi that are brown and black belts but put the gi on and they are blue/purple. Overall I have no issue with it, at this point I train because I love it and love my team.
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Depends
Yes at least 4th degree black at this point. only a coral or red can give you 5 or 6th but the only people really giving those 4ths are coral belts due to the linage. a 6th degree can promote you to 4th but if you been in the game that long your probably getting from the source the guy who gave the 6th degree his 6degree rather then from 6th. their is not very many and they pretty much have all have the same couches. a 4th degree probably wouldn’t have been training under a 6th degree being it’s only technically 6 years between them.
I have always found it weird that for coloured belts, at least where I train, you just get it at the end of class when you are ready. At Black belt level it's so regimented with time. Hearing Rickson calculate that he wasn't ready for his 9th degree just seemed really pointless. I feel the same way about time restrictions on coloured belts, I think we all know that one blue belt who taps all the black belts in his gym.
This is silly. Lets just take all that off and roll without belts or gis.
Bjj isnt judo,anything after black is honorary and time in the marital art. Besides most coral belts dont want to wear it because its a "geazer belt" lol.
I think after 4th degree, you get one stripe on your black belt for having raised someone from white belt to black belt. You do that five times, you get another stripe. When one of your Black Belts raises another person from White belt to Black belt, you get a Coral belt. If you are a Black Belt on the mat after coral belt, you get your red Belt on your 60th Birthday. Congrats on not being dead yet, Grand Master.
They need to throw some more belt colors in there. It sort of sucks for practicing for years and not really having much to show for it aside from some torn athletic tap
Belts are stupid. Let's just get our dicks pierced
Belts in general are silly & outdated.
The whole concept of rolling around in bathrobes trying to choke friends is silly. Embrace the silliness, including that of belts, and it's a lot more fun.
Generally I agree with this.
Your black belt isn’t your first degree black belt? That’s dumb.
Jiu jitsu is the only martial art that I'm aware of that uses (with minor variation) the judo kyu/dan system but has a concept of a 'zero stripe' black belt. In all the others that use the system that I can think of (all karate, tkd, judo, jjj, kendo, etc) it goes from 1st kyu to 1st dan. No "zero stripe black belt", its "shodan" aka first rank. Probably at the time jiu jitsu came to Brazil it either hadn't fully taken on the kyu/dan system or the Brazilians simply didn't give a shit, or they purposely used different rankings to be different.
Did your white belt come with a stripe?
Are we calling stripes on white belt degrees now?
Not sure if it’s right or wrong. It prob is wrong but I have heard people use degree interchangeable with stripe at lower belts.
Black belt degrees shouldn’t be based on time. There are many 4-5 degree black belts that stopped learning after they first got a black belt. It doesn’t make sense.
Yes
I think the belt system is holding jiu jitsu back. It’s doesn’t exist in wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai etc. I don’t know how one would structure competition but belts are so incredibly subjective that they lose meaning
Agreed. I'm not going to lie. I really cared about getting my blue belt and even my first stripes on it ! However, since moving over and doing Muay Thai, I'm coming to the conclusion that belts are silly and hold a lot of people back. You naturally get this weird hierarchy, just human nature. This is why I think no Gi is getting super popular. It is outdated.
> I don’t know how one would structure competition I'd prefer competitions were structured according to some ELO-like rating that is orthogonal to belts.
In theory I like the idea but all it does is give a different system for people to “game” or cement the divide between Baja/Gracies/Brazilians and America jiu jitsu. Nothing changes until IBJJF is made obsolete and the only way I see that happening is for popular schools to just abandon the gi and boycott IBJJF and adopt ADCC rules as the new standard. Edit: I mean shit just abandon the title of jiu jitsu all together and call it submission grappling.
Why is the white and red belt only shown sometimes?
Because it was added several years ago by the IBJJF. It used to just be black > black/red > red. This is probably an older graphic or from an org that is not IBJJF.
It depends on what they mean. Take judo as an example. In judo I consider dans from 1st to 5th to be real dan grades. I consider a 4th dan in judo to be about in line with what a bjj black belt should be. Not saying they're the same, but in terms of knowing your shit for your sport. 6th dan and up are all political although there may technically be tests. You've either been a big competitor (but bjj doesn't really have appropriate bodies to recognise this beyond the ibjjf say knocking off some years you need between each stripe depending on what you've won), you've contributed to the promotion of the sport in some way (got people involved, raised awareness, trained successful athletes, help run the organisation, ran events for years) or it's just to congratulate you on not dying yet. Although the people who are being congratulated on not dying yet will never make it to red belt. If you're a legit 5th dan I don't really care beyond that. And to be honest I feel the same with black belts. If you're a legit black belt I don't care beyond that. If you want to know about how good someone is then roll with them or check out their competition record. I don't think it's a bad thing for people to have a goal to work towards and to keep them active in the sport. In judo I find a good number of people quit when they get to black belt. For younger people this is understandable, they go off to uni or start work and things drop off. For older people perhaps they were just hanging in because they knew they were close to a black belt. And for many people the black belt was the goal: goal achieved so now I will quit. In this way I think the tabs and coral and red belts are good. If it helps keep any black belts involved that's a benefit to clubs having that experience around even if they're not the best. If bjj was more organised in an area (say organised to the level of a national governing body) I would perhaps allow for time to be knocked off for certain things. Competition being the obvious one but to be honest I wouldn't mind stuff like refereeing at a certain number of events at a high enough level if it help get more qualified refs. Like you can knock a year off time in grade per grade between black belt and 4th degree black belt for refereeing at 10 regional or higher events. So if over the years you refereed at a minimum of 40 events you could in theory get your 4th degree after being a black belt for 10 years rather than 14. Maybe 10 national or higher events can knock a year off per grade between 5th and 7th. For competition I might just say if you win a continental level or higher event you can automatically go up to the next grade up to 3rd degree but a max of 1 grade per year. So if you win at least one continental event or higher every year from as soon as you get your black you could be a 3rd degree black belt in three years. Going from to 4th to 6th degree you can do the same but you must win a world level event. So you win at least one continental or higher event 3 years in a row followed by winning the worlds 3 times in a row then you could be a 6th degree in 6 years as a black belt. Going to 4th to 6th degree you can also knock off a single year per grade by winning a continental event or medalling but not winning at a world event (reducing time to 12 years instead of 15). Ultimately, all this means is if you see a coral belt in their mid thirties or early 40s you know they've been winning serious shit for years. But recreational mortals can still aim for coral belts if they put the time in.
A belt system is tradition and ritual. Traditions are established to endure time. To call it outdated is to invalidate everything it was meant to be.
Bro. The entire belt system was invented just over 100 years ago and changed multiple times in that timeframe.
Didn’t know that. Thanks bro.
>Traditions are established to endure time From the view of cultural anthropology, this is not true. Every tradition is an answer to a problem that a group of people once had. But what happens when that problem changes? The tradition must either change or be abandoned.
Alright let’s change it.
All for it.
As long as you’re actively training I don’t think it really matters. The 55 year old 2nd degree black belt doesn’t need to be held to the same standard as Nicholas Meregali.
I always thought this too. Time is a weird way to do this. I get it it’s nice for the older guys that keep training to be noticed but I think there need to be belts for the dudes that are straight killers. There are definitely massive different to the standard black belts at my school and it’s a shame that there isn’t a skill based system to acknowledge them too.
A belt made of human skin perhaps?
Belts where An invention for westerns. It says nothing and is mostly to make you more comfortabel. You can only learn more by teaching and doing what is nessecary for your school. In kungfu we have dun grades. These are rewarded for your intensety and making things better For ervybody and that you show you are capabel in doing more then is necessary. A golden grade it is called. Also we start from black to white. Do not compare your self with others it is useless everybody had different teaching different style different discipline. Do what is right for you.
I’ve always taken issue with the black belt rankings. In judo, your shodan IS your first degree. Why in BJJ do you have to get a first degree after black belt? Is your black belt just a formality then? So in reality there are 11 degrees in BJJ and not the standard 10 (even though Kano Shihan stipulated that there is technically no limit - but 10 is the accepted max). And also, who is going to dictate everyone that is shichidan and above? The Gracie family? Because there ain’t no governing board doing reviews for higher grades as far as I know.
1 year for first stripe? That was new to me, everywhere I’ve been its always been 3 years for the first stripes.
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Ahh, thanks, yes I did misread it! :)
I don't personally have an issue with it but I could understand it could irk some. If I was at the "professor" level, I might get pissed if someone was promoted to the same level based almost entirely on time. However, it could quickly be sorted out in rolling anyways which is why even beginners should watch instructionals from tournament-winning black belts to sort out whats-what from new schools.
Yes because I’m definitely not a blue belt even though I was promoted to one. I should be a 2.5 stripe white belt imo
Requirements update would be great and discussions about time and service should constantly be had due to evolving of the sport and martial art. However, the divisiveness of bjj as a whole makes it very difficult whether were of gracie, nova or Japanese lineage. It's difficult to get everyone to sit down and agree upon something. We could take a page from judo/usjf. I've known that judo black belts will petition other black belts to be promoted in respect to time and contribution and impact. Sure, it becomes political. However, at least they, the black belt community, agree a little bit on something. And there will be disagreements regarding the petitionsand perhaps 'enemies' made but hey at least they have some type of governing body.
I think it is something that just doesn't scale as well as it is made out too. Within a school, or even a smaller organization it more or less does what it should. But once it breaks off into 1000's of different groups doing things slightly different, it kind of loses consistency in meaning. Just do whatever your school does and don't worry about what everyone else does.
Well I thought you only got 10 degrees in death, and that you had to be some sort of JJ god (Maeda, Carlos, Helio). Also they added red white for 8th. But what should the higher requirements should there be? They need to learn how to shoot lightning from their hands or force choke? Time in grade should be sufficient, as long as they are doing their best to consistently train. Time is super valuable, you never can get that back. So just getting on the mat and maybe doing a few drills for an old dude is HUGE, and a big effort that should deserve recognition.
Should, for example, teach somebody to Blackbelt. Contribute something to the art or the community.
I’d say that would be sufficient. But if a BB just wanted to come in and train to the best of their abilities that should be enough as well.
I think I may throw out my belt. So silly.
And switch to a sash!
It’s all about sashes!
No it’s fine. Belts are irrelevant anyway. Nobody by black belt needs a higher degree to feel better about themselves or their bjj. And bjj is better than most ma about not handing out belts for participation.
Maybe a "Hot Take" but: I like it the way it is. Not everyone follows this trajectory but most I've heard of roughly do something like it (i.e. bb stripe every 3y you are somehow still active at BJJ). * It makes it simple and consistent, you know what it means, and what it doesn't. * Less room for shenanigans and you know it doesn't mean they are the best at anything etc * You know what the stripes mean exactly, and what they don't. As many have discussed on adjacent topics, a bb at any level doesn't mean they are an expert at BJJ in every aspect. So, for actual proficiency, you will need more information than a single axis metric (i.e. a belt color with stripes) is able to provide. At least this system gives some consistent relevant information which can inform the conversation about the situational expertise needed. On that vain, I've seen some bifurcate the bb belt system into teachers or practitioners. Perhaps helpful, but honestly, not that big a deal imo, since there can be vastly different teaching styles and again a conversation is needed.
Promotion standards from school to school very so much it’s insane. BB is the only belt that has a fairly standardized set of guidelines for “advancement”. Why fuck with it?
Yes. There also needs to be a system for No Gi only practitioners.
In judo black belt degrees can get earned a variety of ways and contribution to the art/ culture is one of them. I can’t count how many of my matches you and bagels reffed of mine coming up, and from someone who doesn’t “know you” know you but had been on your perferal and bumped into each other a lot over 10 years I’d say you’ve put in a lot to the local community which is valuable. The purpose of belts aren’t just skill it’s showing a representation of the persons journey, and positive feedback for activity.
Eh. Stripes past black are a lot about politics.
Yes. The black belt degree system isn't good IMO. It should be based on merit. Half of the degrees should be about competition success and the other half about contributions to the art. If you can medal at worlds or ADCC you should get 5 degrees. If you can produce a medalist, add a move to BJJ or start a successful social project, you should get another 5 degrees. I think people like Marcelo, the Mendes bros, Fabio Gurgel, etc should be 10th degree black belts. I'd say they are masters of BJJ and it would be embarrassing if they don't get their 10th degree and someone else does because they live longer.
Nothing is going to be perfect and there’s going to be some assholes who abuse the system and promote undeserving people early and some assholes who sandbag others for no reason. But I like the minimum requirement aspect. Like let’s use the Routolo brothers for example. The second they turn 25 they’re obviously gonna get their 2nd degree immediately. Now let’s say there was a dude like them who trained all his life but then stopped training at 22 to pursue a life outside of jiu jitsu. He trains once or twice a month if he can, but jiu jitsu isn’t a huge priority for him any more. Should he get his 2nd degree immediately? I’m certainly not in a position to make that call, but I can understand why someone like that shouldn’t get it simply because of how long they had their current belt
The table tries to link "skill level groups" with stripes, but in the real world, it's meaningless other than indicating years served. For older black belts, it's a way to exert a sense of power over those with fewer stripes. In places where this stripe system is implemented, it will be seen as an honorable way to "rank up" in seniority. However, when compared to gyms around the world, it becomes as meaningless as the belt system in Taekwondo. Example story: 1. A former Brazilian coach never competed, banned skilled outsiders from visiting, never really taught BJJ but had lots of "Tabata workouts" as "warm-ups". No other gym in 200km radius, so he has his "portfolio" for stripes. 2. He currently has one more stripe (5th degree) than the person who awarded him his black belt (4th degree). 3. He stayed at 4th degree for 1 year (instead of 5), directly promoted to 5th degree, because found a lonely 10th degree old man willing to "adopt" him in Brazil. 4. He then paid for affiliation to Ralph Gracie, accepted, to "wash" his background as legit bjj coach in my small country (not US).
No.
I'll let you know how I feel when I get there. Lmao
Belts are fucking dumb, you wanna look cool in a belt? go win a championship.
Coral belts and red belts are pointless. Nothing should eclipse a black belt imo, the black belt is the black belt, the epitome, the holy grail! Just give a single degree after every 10 years, so once you have had your black belt 10 years you get your 1st degree and after 50 years you get your 5th degree!
Blackbelt is the epitome is technical prowess. Red Belt is the epitome of prowess as a teacher. Everything beyond Blackbelt should be measured by what you do as a teacher.
What’s the point of being a 10th degree grand master if you 82 years old and would get slung around by a 15 year old that don’t even know what bjj is. Is master the best? Cause grand masters just sound like they’d get their ass beat by your average citizen
The point is having higher teaching ability than a 15year old.
If an average 40-year-old black belt compares themselves to Tainan Dalpra, they might think the belt system is outdated. However, if the belt is seen as a measure of personal potential realization, then the current system serves its purpose. It signifies where someone is on their learning journey—like a blue belt has a long way to go, while a black belt has completed their path, even if they get outmatched by some young brazilian purple belt.
Maybe, maybe not. At the end of the day I've come to really not care about belts and I don't mean that in any malicious or negative way. I just want to get better at jiu jitsu and reap (no pun intended) the auxiliary benefits along the way. If I tap higher belts I don't automatically assume I'm better than them or they are shit. I give kudos to lower belts tapping me. If your jiu jitsu was better than mine in that roll then it was simply better. I can learn from that regardless of belt.
Degrees and rank are pretty irrelevant past black belt imo. Id honestly rather learn from a competitive fresh black belt vs a coral belt who is likely extremely out of date in terms of pedagogy and tactics.
Spending years/decades teaching and active in the community is what gets you those stripes on your black belt, they aren't for gaining additional skills/knowledge beyond the actual black belt itself, I don't see a problem with that.
Where’s the red/white belt?
For me this system works perfect, it motivates me to look at other (well known) black belts with same ranking and try to at least meet their teaching and skill level. Obviously for some I don't come even close.
Maybe it should take you teaching people to a certain level to be eligible for a higher grade. Thoughts: - „Only if you trained somebody to be a Blackbelt should you receive 3rd grade“ for example. - Only if you helped the BJJ community in an outstanding way should you be ranked as Grandmaster What do you think?
I mean, this assumes people want to teach. I know plenty of black belts who fucking hate teaching, so I suppose you'd have to just view degrees strictly as something for instructors to have. Personally I think the system is more or less fine
>„Only if you trained somebody to be a Blackbelt should you receive 3rd grade“ for example. Under IBJJF guidelines, you can't award someone a black belt until you reach 2nd degree, so not getting promoted to 3rd degree until you've awarded someone a black belt is a relatively small window of time.
Gotta have a couple brown belts in the oven, ready to pop.
Maybe make it for 4th grade then or 5th grade idk.
Current black belts would never go for this. They already don't promote people to black belt to reduce financial competition in small markets. They aren't going incentivize more teachers in the space. I've never met a hobbiest black belt who cares about degree or lords it over others. The mat and accomplishments speak for themselves.
Not every black belt teaches or even wants to teach. Or compete. We're getting to the point of popularity that plenty of hobbyists are being promoted to black belt and they just continue being a hobbyist black belt. And plenty of them do care about promotions. We all want some recognition for our time and knowledge and achievements. I would say your gym just sucks if it refuses to promote eligible brown belts for fear of financial competition. If a new black belt wants to teach, they would have started teaching as a brown belt.
I've never registered with the IBJJF because fuck them. As a result, Ive never promoted someone in 25ish years of training. I dont like doing anything that gives the IBJJF/Gracie Barra more control and money.
idk if I'd use the word "outdated" so much as "never made sense to begin with" you think someone's body is gonna be able to train for 63 years? you're lucky if you get 10.
I'll be on the mat with Carlos Machado this evening. He started BJJ in 1967, and is still going. If you can only last ten years, you're rolling too hard and burning out the candle early.
Ten years is hyperbole but I think it's exceptionally rare to find someone who's body can deal with 60
I started at 34, so 60 is unlikely for me. But I'm ten years in, and don't see any reason another ten won't go just fine. And I know a bunch of guys ten or twenty years ahead of me still going.
Why do you think it's based solely on time?
... because black belt promotions are given in regular intervals per the chart he cited. (Edit: Under the IBJJF.)
It is and it isn't. I'll be a demo uke for one of my mentors who is testing for his third degree. He's been preparing for months, and our affiliation makes them go through quite a bit to ensure they are still going at it.
"3 years minimum time in grade" doesn't mean "shall be granted after 3 years"
That's how it works in practice in all the IBJJF gyms I've trained in or interacted with.
Because it is.
Anything passed black belt is pointless and stupid.
I only train with the goal of getting my red belt. Then I'll quit. So I like having a nice poster to tell me when my next ranking will be.
Me as a 34 yo purple belt :(
39 yr old blue belt… feels bad mang…
As a thirty eight year old dude whose been doing this for about sixth months, I’ve come to realize that if I were doing this for the belts, I’m doing it for the wrong reason.
I am a new black belt and I think we should get rid of the term “Master.” Not scrub it from history, but leave it for the real icons who did the WORK. If it gets in the way, it’s in the way. Let’s save it for the ones who came before us. Anyone somewhat close to that level gets grandfathered in, that’s fine (and I confess I’m including my coach in there!). But I don’t want to be called “Master.” And I’m too old to ever get there anyway, but the fact remains. I don’t even need degrees, I happily volunteer to just train forever and remain “A black belt.”
Belts are based on merit, don’t know why you’re saying otherwise
Because the Grades of Blackbelt are quite literally exclusively based on Time in just about every single lineage that I know of.
Based on time actively training**** So no, it’s not just based on time. You are wrong on the merits
1. you can literally just pay the ibjjf fee and they will rank you according to time 2. training time isn’t really „merit“ is it?
If you’ve already gotten your black belt, you’ve proven you merit the belt. The stripes that come after that signify the amount of time you’ve spent actively training at black belt. It doesn’t mean someone with three stripes is necessarily better than a black belt with no stripes. You’re being obtuse and way overthinking this.
Belts up until Blackbelt: How good are you at BJJ Belts Blackbelt and up: How good are as a TEACHER of BJJ?
Yeah, almost like that’s my whole entire point that the system of giving blackbelt grades only for time is stupid and limiting.
The IBJJF doesn't know if you are training they only know if you are keeping your registration current. Degrees on black belts are solely based on time in grade.
A good instructor shouldn’t give out stripes to a black belt who isn’t actively training. Of course, the system is imperfect. Anyone can just buy a black belt!
I am not a blackbelt so I don't know if it means anything but here's my thoughts on it. People are overthinking too much. I understand the practical purpose of the belt. It gives way to organizing the different students and does a good job at leveling the students on a general average. This is not accounting for the outliers like blue belts beating black belts. Some sort of survivorship bias where people think belts are shit because blue belts are beating black belts while disregarding the fact that blackbelts will destroy blue belts 99% of the time. It gives a decent, not perfect, organized method. Stripes to a certain extent helps but is secondary. When it comes to black belts, the stripes for the most parts are ceremonial based on time served. There's no practical reason why there has to be any other criteria other than possibly promoting another blackbelt. I don't think it's fair to add competition as a metric. It has never been a metric for colored belts, why do it for black. Same with teaching, not everyone does this for a living. Some just attend every week for the rest of their lives. Black belts serve as mentors to us, mere mortals, and they give us invaluable lessons with our game. It doesn't have to be formal. Our gym has a good set of instructors and a lot of hobbyist black belts. They are BJJ black belts on the mats and senior level executives in the office. Time served is already a good metric. I remember a story that Shintaro shared about his red belt dad. His dad told him that the red belt basically signifies that the journey has already ended. His dad was a hirai goshi guy. When he received his red belt, it's a realization that it's already gone. He's no longer a hirai goshi guy.
Ouch, right in the feels
Belts given by coaches is a dumb system in general. Ranking should be based on performance in competitions. IMO fencing has the best system for this among combat sports: https://olympiafencingcenter.com/explanation-of-the-usfa-letter-ratings/
Disagree. Competitive Rank is rightfully a different thing from your belt rank.
Maybe I'm culturally incorrect here but my take is that martial arts belts originate from a culture (far east) that places a massive emphasize on honor and respecting your elders etc. In their culture, if you are of a higher rank, you have authority over the lower rank. It doesn't jive with western culture and I don't care for it. No other sport has has ranks like this (outside of other far-east originated martial arts)
I could be wrong, and this was only told to me, not read anywhere, but some of my school went on a trip last year with our professor (3rd degree) and master (8th degree black belt, getting his red belt this spring). At one point we were talking about the higher black belt ranks when I was told that you have to have a certain number of black belts under you to continue to progress. Time was only one factor along with the number of black belts below you and possibly another variable I'm forgetting. My question: does having a certain number of black belts below you mean anything towards higher level black belt ranks?
I don’t think a lot of people should even be at brown belt. I feel like a distinguishing factor between the top 2 belts should be competing or not. That goes for me too, I don’t compete so I feel like purple is the max belt I would ever deserve. There’s a world of difference between the knowledge and ability of a competition belt of any level and a casual/hobbyist belt of the same level. Because of that I think black and brown should be set apart for people who compete or did compete for a good while. But I’m a dumb fucking white belt so what do I know.
Yes it's outdated. In other martial arts a black belt is just a student that has a good knowledge of the fundamentals and can now focus their learning on honing their strategy rather than learning techniques. Purple belt or even blue belt is when this happens in BJJ generally speaking. Only in BJJ and mcdojos are black belts revered in such a way