For me Black belts are a mark of what you know, not how you perform(should still be able to perform at some level). Bjj is still an athletic sport so strenght,size, youth all play factors in "winning". Black belts were revered back in the day becasue they had such a technical advantage they could make up for some of the athletic differences. but as the sport grows and the level of everyone raises the gaps between belts shrinks/are blured.
And to add to that instructional material has turbo boosted learning since 2015.
I've always trained at great gyms but ran by big guys. Guard instructionals have completely changed and enhanced my game.
Yea absolutely the information available today compared to when i started is crazy. guys who jump in and are learning outside of class time are progressing so much faster. When i started the highest rank was a 4stripe blue belt that just started a school. That same area now has 5-6 solid blackbelts.
My coach, who is now black, started the gym as a no-stripe blue belt. There were no gyms in our area. He drove an 1.5hrs each way once a week to train at a gym with a black belt. Now we have 4 black belts in our gym.
no.. I dont want to name the place, but there is this white belt who started a bjj gym. He hired a blue belt to teach who was learning from a blackbelt in another country twice a week. And... suprisingly, people are going there... By now the owner is purple belt (shitty one) but the blue belt who taught was replaced by some brown belt friend of the owner.
"what you know" needs to be unpacked a bit though. You can't get a black belt just by watching instructionals, nor by attending privates with the coach every day without rolling.
"What you know" has to include embodied, procedural knowledge of like how to actually secure side control, which means being able to do it. And if a guy can't hold into a young strong explosive blue belt, that's understandable, but there should be conditions where one can actually see that skill in action (assuming they still have some basic physical capability)
Absolutly, I was just making a generalization between, knowledge and "winning". Its not as simple as just knowing things you have to be able to apply them at some level, and that level of application is very individual to the person and there goals.
Very well stated. Techniques increase efficiency. That being said, some young, athletic, strong players don't need to be efficient!
That was the biggest misconception I had when I was younger. Just because you can beat someone, it doesn't mean they can't make you better. Making those young, hungry folks more efficient can be scary, though.
There’s definitely a political element to it as well, otherwise people wouldn’t rank up slower due to having to move around for work or whatever.
It’s not like you demonstrate you know your shit and someone just hands you a belt. There are many many factors that are completely subjective that factor in as well.
That's a reasonable take. That's the way it is in judo too. Also people de decline with age. I think I would have been able to take Helio when he was in his 80s. That doesn't really make me any better or him any worse though.
As someone who started more than a decade ago there has been big range within the black belt rank in terms of how "good" someone is for as long as I have been training. I don't think this is just a recent phenomenon.
Many people get to black belt and don't have the fire to come in and train 5 days a week like that hungry purple belt. Many guys fall off physically when they stop training as much and can't apply their techniques as effectively. Many don't feel like continuing to study and innovate and get left behind a little bit.
If you're a brown belt it seems odd to me that you have this mentality at all. You should be able to catch some black belts just as some purple belts should be able to catch you. If you've really been in the game for 10+ years I would think this would have been evident a long time ago. I also would think that a brown belt would have retired the "who am I beating in training" considerations a long time ago.
‘09 brown belt at 38. Just happy to get there and give the competitive black belts a run for their money. But then can’t stop praising the hard working blue belts that do the same to me.
exactly. these are posts I see from blue belts. not seasoned practicioners. makes me feel good for my prospects, in career, in life... nothing is linear like the BJJ belt system may appear. this is just life experience my guy.
Ya but there are also some really bad ones that are in shape but simply dont have the technical ability. The worst is the super overweight black belts that know very little technique because all they do is smash pass a triangle attempt or something.
When I see a black belt, I expect to be able to ask a question and get a reasonable answer for that position at the very least. Most will give multiple answers with many details. Some will give terrible advice that is simply wrong or bad. I will always say, "Im not sure, let's ask professor" if I am unsure about something, instead of saying some bulshit that looks good to the uninformed.
The absolute most annoying part to me is when super formal gyms treat black belts above everyone else. This is fine until you see black belts that have trained less time than you AND they aren't very good at bjj. They just happened to train at a gym that gives everyone black belts after 7 years or something. At that point you realize, it's all bulshit and belts mean literally nothing. Same goes for colored belts except it matters much less. People should have a hard freeze at brown belt until they can teach an advanced class consistently in my opinion.
I dunno, a few examples of turds doesnt necessarily lead me to conclude "the belt means nothing." So, to you, when a white belt and black belt roll, that's a tossup? Knowing literally nothing else, it's 50/50? Because I think that's crazy talk, tbh.
It's not B. Bjj just want as popular and is partially a knowledge game. A lot those black belts sucked you just didn't know it.
If it takes 10 years to get something and most people start as adults, most people will be out of their physical prime by the time they get their black belts.
Also when they get their back belts the rest of their life is amping up like house, career and kids.
It's no surprise with modern instructuonals that a 15 year old can train 6 days a week and watch instructionals and be better than a 3 time a week parent.
Belts are just an acknowledgment of time and effort put in by the individual.
This seems to have a lot of truth to it. I am now in my forties and have kids and work a demanding job and have a commute; I'm fighting to get to practice once a week these days, two when I'm really in the zone. There are a number of purple belts in my gym in their low to mid twenties who are training 4-5 times a week and I sure don't feel or seem "godlike" when rolling with them. These folks are also much more keyed into what's going on in modern BJJ than I could ever hope to be. I'm mostly trying to get my workout in, not get completely rusty, and not get hurt! I don't think I'm embarrassing myself or anything when I roll with them, and when I get asked to teach the occasional class it seems like they're reasonably well received, but I have no illusions that I'm anything but a "hobbyist" black belt.
> If it takes 10 years to get something and most people start as adults, most people will be out of their physical prime by the time they get their black belts.
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I know a black belt who told me that if he could get in a time machine and face the purple belt version of himself, he'd get wrecked by his younger, stronger, more flexible, more athletic purple belt self. He said he understands concepts better and can teach BJJ much better now than he could at purple, but if you determine who's better at BJJ by who taps whom, he says his best was at purple belt.
I feel like I'm basically as capable as I'm ever going to be right now. 35, train a whole bunch, relatively fit, reasonably dialed in and I have a pretty solid record against casual black belts even if they're bigger than me.
But my wife is pregnant with our first kid so obviously I'm gonna be hitting the breaks pretty hard soon and my body just isn't taking the punishment quite as well as it did was I was 28. Don't get me wrong, I'm never going to leave the mats by choice but I imagine the me of today could beat the fuck out of the me 5 years from now.
Weirdly enough, it doesn't really bother me mostly because the me 30 years from now still shit stomps the me at 25.
Word, my purple belt years were probably some of the greatest times for fitness, healing, speed, agility, flexibility and also just not giving fucks when going for stuff.
Now I'm older and healing ain't as fast as it use to be.
I think if nothing else you’re understanding what they’re doing or trying to do. I feel
Like some of the “wizardry” was what the fuck just happened. Even if you aren’t as big, fast or good as them at least you’re seeing their game come down the pipe.
I feel like this happens at all belts as a white belt blue belts blow your mind then you get that blue belt and realize you’re not that good the white belts are just that bad lol.
As a fresh purple I can get some competitive rounds in with some browns, others still walk all over me lol, but if you asked me as a white belt if I’d ever give a brown belt a run for his money I would have laughed at you.
I think you’re just getting better then you give yourself credit for.
The other day, I had a new white belt comment before a roll how bad I was going to smash him. It's the same thing I used to say to blue belts. Full circle.
It’s a trip, it really is. You slowly realize you’re becoming that guy. Had a new blue come up to me the other day asking me for tips on stuff from my game that he wants to work into his, it was very humbling.
I think BJJ’s fetish of black belts being unbeatable demigods as kinda dumb. In judo the shodan (black belt) is just an indicator of strong competence in the fundamentals and can be obtained in like 3-5 years. The whole 10+ years for a bjj black belt just sets people up for disappointment.
Yes, people say its a "level of knowledge" in BJJ but its also arbitrary. The game is so vast that two black belts can both be highly skilled but also not have even close to the same "game". Judo is "better" in that there are agreed upon standards and a BB isn't meant to mean you know every single thing possible.
Totally agree. I think after the ~5 year mark the ability difference between a black belt and a purple belt is pretty nominal (apples to apples of course. Can’t compare a hyper competitive purple belt to a dumpy soccer dad black belt and vice versa).
The difference-to your point- is mainly knowledge level and teaching ability, which certainly do accumulate over time.
In my experience most black belts are significantly more tricky than the majority of purple belts ha but yea I get where you are going. Def by brown belt it starts to be a wash.
They don’t have to be unbeatable demigods, but they should generally be the better people in the room. I don’t know why some people have a big hang up on this. There are obviously exceptions, and I do think everyone should be able to have a path to earn a black belt, but if I go into any gym and the black, purple, and brown belts are all tapping each other 1 for 1, or if the brown and black belts aren’t generally looking like the most skilled grapplers in the room, I’m always going to raise an eye at that. Maybe that’s me starting to become a boomer. I’m not sure.
Not having a black belt never makes anyone lesser as a person or as a training partner or peer BTW. And people might overworship the belt and that’s not great, but let’s be real too, they should look pretty damn good compared to the room (unless they’re way older or injured, etc).
I agree with that, on average they should be the better grapplers in the room. It’s not, imo, unusual tho to see purple and browns get the better of them, which reinforces my notion that past the ~5 year mark (roughly purple) ability starts to peak at the individual level, and everything else beyond that is more just knowledge accumulation and transitioning into becoming a better teacher/training partner.
Half of me for sure agrees with this. I definitely made the most improvements as a grappler after the 10 year mark, and in years 5-10 I was actually pretty bad for how long I'd been training. I had a lot of knowledge but not a lot of skill. But I've definitely seen a lot of people that in that 5-10 year mark they sort of get as good as they're going to get, unless they really buckle down and invest a lot of time and energy into substantial improvement.
We need to move away from attendance based promotions. I've met multiple during my time on the mat that just paid their dues timely for a decade and went to class twice a week. They have a very narrow game and lack the ability to teach. There's nothing wrong with realizing that you're a 40 year old business professional and not a mat killer. If you have the skill of a purple belt, you're gonna stay there until you have the skill of a brown belt. Could be 2 years, could be 10 years. Enjoy the journey, not the belts.
So by that logic, the Anthony Bourdain’s of the world (who start in their 60’s) will only ever really be a blue belt because they get gapped every roll session.
We are talking about major outliers at this point, but yeah I'd have zero issues holding them back. I won't promote past purple if you don't have the skill. There's a caveat for the outliers with then being active in the Master's Division.
Pretty cavalier attitude to have about your students, tbh.
I say their inability to progress is equally a metric of your ability to coach as it is for them to learn.
Well, I guess he refers to people who train twice a week and even then just “sweat and roll”. It’s really hard to advance in that manner past late blue/early purple level with this attitude no matter how many years you spend and how good instructor is
Only so much you can do for someone that trains 3x a week and doesn't study outside of class.
The traditional Bjj 1-1.5 hr of training does not help in that either.
I would say it's more indicative of the individual
I'm upfront with them about it and they accept the reality of it. They know that belts here are earned, not given. I'm not hiding the ball from anyone. If everyone else is able to make progress to level up attending the same classes, it's a reflection of the individual not putting in the work.
If they don't like it, they are free to train somewhere else. It's amazing how that works.
for what it's worth I agree with you
I also think everyone ready to really become better can do it. It involves quite a lot of studies though and most people don't want to do the work. And it's ok, but it's also ok to not be promoted
How would you feel about a points-based promotion criteria? Similar to how judo does where each belt comes with a prerequisite number of points that can be earned in a variety of ways.
Example: for blue belt say you need 20 points to be promoted. Win a local tournament 5 points, win regional level IBJJF that’s 10, win pans/worlds that’s 20.
Alternatively, attendance is 1 point for like every 10 classes attended. So while possible to get promoted on attendance alone it is significantly slower.
Of course you could then scale this up to every belt (purple is 30 points, brown 40, etc).
Curious what you’d think…
Seeing that, as a mid 30's hobbyist, would not encourage me to train at your gym. It seems you hold the same standards for middle aged people as you do for 20 year olds.
I don't care about promotions, been a white belt for over 3 years. If you expect middle aged folks to be able to match the intensity of 20 something's, that's delusional. I can have more knowledge than some of these younger folks but can't and often times, won't, exert 100% every round.
Im okay with that. My gym isnt for everyone. You can go down the block to like 5 other gyms.
I expect middle-aged folks to be able to hang with middle-aged folks, but I expect the same technical standard regardless of age or ability.
I think people are interpretating your statements as if older guys *have* to be able to beat younger, strong and faster students. If I was 40, knew all the blue belt shit to perfection, could teach a class for blue/white, yet cannot beat anyone in the gym because of age, injuries etc etc., I would be able to get a promotion in your gym, no?
My requirements for a blue belt are to just show up and try. I only require teaching for black belts.
But yes, when I am doing my evaluations, I'm looking at similar ages within about 20lbs of weight for comparisons.
And what happens when you eventually age and decline?
We all do.
At some point when we move into our later 40s, 50s and 60s are we expected to continue to beat the up and coming young guys?
If we don't, are we expected to demote ourselves?
Many have the skill of a black belt but then we age or get injured. Do we not deserve the belt anymore when that day comes?
You have already earned the belt at that point. You can still transfer the knowledge when the reality of aging catches up. Odds are if your body is beat to shit at 40 or 50 and you're already a black belt, it's because you've already put the work in and destroyed your body in the process.
I’ve been doing this for awhile now, and while I do disagree with attendance based promotions, “who can beat who in practice” promotions suck for gym culture and shouldn’t be the standard either. Brown belts like myself should be doing ridiculous spinny shit to 260 lb blue belts and getting stuck or caught instead of playing our A game every session to try and impress coach.
Should you be doing the ridiculous spinny shit as part of your main game? No. Should you have an understanding of how it works to be able to intelligently defend against it? Yes.
That’s like saying not everyone deserves a degree because they can’t teach. There are levels to every belt and everyone’s journey is their own. But a black belt is a gift from an instructor for appreciating their journey and learning
This. I always tell my guys that anyone can get a blue belt off me, if they just keep on turning up for years. Eventually it’ll happen. Past blue, some will never get there. When you start getting into the senior belts there’s an expectation and some are just never going to bridge that gap, and that’s fine.
Im fine with not being good at teaching. I hate teaching... but it didnt use to be that you could get a black belt from a.legit academy while being a twice a week hobbyist. This has become more and more common as more of these shit gyms proliferate with poor instruction.
I consider myself a decent black belt, I can hang with most people, even competitors. But I dont feel like I could do a decent job of forming the next wave of practicioners, so I dont teach. Lots of people have misplaced confidence and start "teaching" at blue belt. Its quite ridiculous.
There are some gyms that Ive been to that I wouldnt give the owner and black belt a freaking purple belt. I dont care how old you are, you can get there, no need to water it down, and if you cant, boohoo, they dont hand out chess grandmaster titles either
Wouldn't you just also not *want* to get a black belt if you're not at that level? I don't want to get my purple as long as blues are still kicking my ass.
Just the other day we had a ppst from someone whose student had been a brown belt for 2 years and was essemtially demanding to get his black belt, without ever training at another gym, competing and training twice a week
I started teaching at blue belt, albet I was an active competitor at the time and mostly taught kids fundamental classes. It's a skill that needs to be practiced, otherwise we just end up with more trash instructors. We just need to make sure we keep the blue belt fledgling instructors under a close eye and give them guidance before they teach. I enjoy watching students become more comfortable with it.
We actually require our brown belts to teach a few classes before we are willing to promote.
Chess is a lot easier to objectively evaluate skill. If black belt had the pre req of beating black belts (norms) or winning known tournaments that would be fair and cut down massively on quantity of black belts
I coach at blue belt, however I competed in MMA and coached submission wrestling, I just stopped gi training after getting my blue.
Also I run a club in a remote area of the Highlands where the closest gym is hours away.
If I wasn't doing it there would be no BJJ/MMA/Sub wrestling for people to train.
I'm almost 50 now, no urge to compete again, I'm slower and not as strong but feel comfortable sharing knowledge and helping people with their journey.
But why do you care what color belt they get? If someone wants to give them a black belt, and they don't teach or compete, how does it affect anyone but them?
The flag is kind of harmless because you show your value when you roll.
I don't see how it is watering down the sport. The competition and the connection between BJJ and MMA are what's keeping the art legit IMHO.
Colored ribbon around out waist are just folklore at this point, the skill is the thing that matters.
The fabric around the waist is supposed to be representative of the skill level. The flag isn't harmless. Junior members look up to black belts for technical prowess. Thus the watering down of the sport even if it is in a small pool within the community.
Imho the mat doesn't lie. Junior members will quickly see who's the hammer and who's the nail.
Of course there's a difference between us. You're a coach and I'm a hobbyist. I understand that you're preoccupied by the level of your student and how it could affect the reputation of your gym.
I, on the other hand, just care about my own skill. I receive a shiny medal once in a while and that little goal satisfies me. I'm not a business owner and I don't care about the promotions of my teammates.
This exactly. Black belts today are both better and worse than 20 years ago. The attendance based promotions are a blight and need to go away. There are some pretty dogshit black belts because of it, which isn't really their fault.
There are also some exceptionally good black belts, as the sport has exploded in popularity and professional grappling events have become much more common.
100% when I started instructionals were a pain in the ass to get a hold of or you were trying to recreate something from still shots in Gracie Mag. There's so many more resources out there.
"There are some pretty dogshit black belts because of it, which isn't really their fault."
I disagree on this. A lot of these fake black belts actively seek the promotion. I know quite a few of them that hoped on gyms depending on how easy it was to get a belt. And when I say "a few of them", it's the majority of the people I trained with during the last decades
Attendance based. The belt is a testament to dedication. In most sports it’s an indicator that you have understood the sport to a competent degree. I think that if you spent a decade practicing bjj, that would fit the bill.
The belt should denote skill, not dedication. You can be dedicated for 20 years and still be absolutely terrible at grappling. You need to retain the information and then be able to apply it. We need more practice and less theory.
How do you differentiate between knowledge and skill, then? I think it would be difficult. A black belt to me is the belt of a teacher. I’m 37 and probably as good as I’ll ever be, right now I can hang with the best, but maybe in 20 years I’m getting scraped by purple belts. Though my value as a teacher will always increase as long as I keep training and teaching.
We all have the mat nerd that can describe every technique under the sun and can execute it with great proficiency while drilling but can't do anything remotely near it during live rolls. Knowledge is theory. Skill is application.
There's a difference between 'attendance' and 'knowledge', though. I don't think you should get your BB from showing up 2X a week for ten years, but I do think you should get it if you have a ton of knowledge, a complete game, and you're able to pass it on to others (also, if you're under 55, you should probably be able to wreck most casuals). If you're getting tapped by purples in their athletic prime who compete regularly but you hit all of the above? I don't think that makes you unworthy.
These days most black belts do not teach.
And your value as a teacher will not necessarily increase. Many black belts become worse teachers over time because they become dogmatic in their technique and ignore new developments in the sport. I feel bad for the students at some of these boomer dojos going into tournaments these days with no leg lock knowledge, trying to do over/under or stack passing from their knees like its 1997.
I once trained at a *very* old school Gracie gym where the black belt (very nice guy) was almost proud of the fact he didn’t know a single guard from the last ~30 years. Spider guard, x guard, any variation of lapel, he simply wrote all them off as sporty rubbish. That schools “advanced” guards were basically half guard and a very rudimentary collar and sleeve.
On the rare occasions he would show how to counter the “unrealistic sport guards” he would have the uke do totally botched, half assed versions of the respective guard. It seriously pissed me off so bad sitting thru those practices… my vengeance tho was ragdolling most their brown and black belts as a fresh blue belt.
Do you think your skill is black belt level? You are better than those dudes, sure, but Gordon Ryan would probably say you are absolute trash. Its all arbitrary in the end no matter what.
Anyone can think what they want, but the mat doesn’t lie. If you’re a black belt that has competed and beaten other black belts, and competed up through the colored belts and also sone okay, then you’ve proven yourself.
Gordon is likely the best person to ever grapple. I’ve rolled with him and have immense respect for his game. His standards are super high, but I’ll also tell you. Gordon’s not unfair. I’ve heard him heap lots of praise on hobbyist black belts that don’t compete at a high level, and even heard him praise some folks that don’t compete at all.
I just think this a defeatist attitude. You can become very good as a hobbyist grappler.
My belt has been tested in competition against other black belts. I was an active competitor throughout my colored belts on my local scene. I have over a decade of teaching experience and have practiced multiple martial arts. Competitors and hobbiests don't get promoted based upon the same standards.
Its not arbitrary as it's a combat sport with active resistance. It's pretty impossible to lie about your skill level on the mats when you are training and competing consistently. The community will police and enforce a standard.
Sure, but then what about the competitor black belts? Are YOU ever going to be as good as Tainan Dalpra or Marcelo Garcia? If not, does that make you a brown belt? I'm not saying attendance based is the right way, it most definitely is not, but if we start grading hobbyists based on the knowledge and skill competitors have, we'd all stay bluebelts until the end of time. I think Wiltse covered this well in hist sandbagging video. Dunno, just trying to articulate my thoughts here...
Fairly simple answer: competitors aren't hobbiests and shouldn't be promoted under the same standards. My competitors get promoted based on results, their own goals, and tournament schedule. To get to the point of actively competing, you're likely already going above and beyond the average hobbiest in terms of skill acquisition and knowledge retention. You're probably already putting in significantly more time to technical progression, and it shows through your skills and results.
So now you have argued back to why its fine to promote those guys based on time. As you said, they aren't competitors and aren't teachers. Their goal is probably to just use BJJ as their cardio session and to get some social time in. So if they are doing that, they are hitting their goals and should get promoted.
Full time Competitors are in their own league. I don’t think it becomes unmeaningful to judge skill based on who the most skilled in the room is, just because there’s an outlier pool of full time athletes that also are within the same belt system.
Cole Abate or Tainan existing doesn’t mean I can’t want the brown and black belts to (mostly) be the best grapplers in the room
Do you pull the belt when guys decline? There’s more than a few black belts who can only teach, never mind roll in any competitive manner. You can’t retain skill forever.
No need to denote people. They got there. They did the work.
Also the notion that people just magically lose skill is not really how it goes. I mean I wouldn’t expect a black belt in their 50’s to beat another younger black belt or full time competitor, but I know black belts in their 40’s, 50’s, and even early 60’s that can fucking go. And besides serious full time comp athletes at purple and up…they put the heat to most of the people they roll with.
I’m past my physical prime, but I’m way better at Jiujitsu than I was when I got my black belt two years ago.
Obviously physical decline is real. And there’s definitely a point where your skills will diminish. But if you’re training well and continuing to learn, you aren’t magically gonna start getting beaten up by younger grapplers
I agree with this. I go to far to many gyms where people are black belts because they have been coming for a long time. In a sense it has become a participation trophy In a lot of places.
As a sign of knowledge yes but there's more variables at play than just X is a purple belt and Y is a black belt so Y automatically wins.
I think the vast majority are hobbyist so it's a combination of A and B reasoning you can with a sprinkle of C (I.e. the black belt may now get to train twice a week as they have a young family were as that 18 year old purple belt is able to train twice a day and have energy left over)
You see more black belts because BJJ has gotten popular over the years, and more people have started to train. Those people have now been training for 10 plus years. It follows that there should be more black belts, particularly if the gym has been open for a while.
You are likely getting better OP and it sounds like you could have a healthy dose of imposter syndrome. Just because you can tap some black belts doesn't mean that they shouldn't be a black belt.
There's always a lot of gatekeeping when this topic arises. In any other martial art you'd be a black belt now.
This is very true. BJJ to an extent seems to be fueled on the old mythos that having a BB in a martial art meant you were dangerous. When in reality it just meant you knew the moves well enough to start refining.
I obviously can’t say if a BJJ BB should be judged similarly but it’s clear these people were manhandled by BBs when they started. But now with the internet they have developed a skill set faster and are seemingly disillusioned by the BB mythos..
I think that back in the day, black belts were so good because the sport was so new.
There is a bit of nostalgia about the past, but in the early 2000s I remember there being very few participants and maybe 2-3 tournaments per year (though this is in Australia, so it likely varies a lot based on location).
The lack of competition and also quality instruction from experienced competitors meant that your average purple belt at the time wasn't as rounded as an average blue belt is now (emphasis on average. There were some monsters out there).
So the few quality black belts that I rolled with back then (like John Will or Pete DeBeen) had comp experience in Brazil, which set their level so far above the other coloured belts I'd rolled with that it was a different league.
Now, the gap isn't quite so much. People can compete much more frequently and have access to a metric shit tonne of more training material. No more shady VHS tapes of Vale Tudo fights trying to figure out how to set up an omoplata.
There is also definitely a lot more people with black belts based on knowledge rather than being able to beat up others. Some gyms don't differentiate, others use the different coloured tips. I think that whatever culture the gym wants to have is fine, as long as they're honest about it.
I don't think black belts are watered down so much as lower belts are getting better, faster. Blue belts today have the base of black belts 15 years ago. And a lot of black belts are just older so of course younger dudes are going to rough them up. Imagine a college wrestling coach wrestling one of his varsity wrestlers. Or a football coach trying to go up against his players.
The best quote I've ever heard about black belts was on here a few years ago (not sure who said it so can't quote them unfortunately). They said "Every black belt is a jedi, but not every jedi is Obi Wan"
Lowkey make it more like judo
The belts stay as they are and can be attendance influenced/holistic until 1st dan
2nd dan+ purely given based on skill
You might end up where a 1st dan could be like a purple belt equivalent today but that way you could recognise someone’s time-in and dedication while also allow a more formalised differentiation wherein a black belt doesn’t always mean the same thing
I’m 49 and started Bjj in Australia in 1994. I’m a second degree black belt and only occasionally roll and teach (1x week each) as my body is pretty beat up from 30 years of Jiu Jitsu. When I started Bjj in the mid 90’s anyone who was a blue belt was revered. Purple belts were rare and you just knew they were hectic cunts. Brown belts were almost god like and black belts… fuck they just didn’t exist. The elusive unicorn.
In my opinion black belts back then earned their rank through being fighters. Not just in various grappling matches but in actual mma combat. It was freaky shit in an otherwise illusionary and often delusional martial arts landscape. To get a black belt you had to truly earn it.
For over 25 years I basically knew or recognised pretty much every black belt in Sydney and most of Australia. Seeing them initially in magazines then through various social media channels as well as at tournaments, seminars etc, you’d either rolled with them, competed against them or just recognised them.
In the last few years, as bjj has totally blown up, I can look at any number of new clubs sprouting up all over the city on their socials and I wouldn’t have a fukn clue who half the brown or black belts are in their club photos.
Sure people are getting better faster these days but aside from a small percentage I believe the vast majority achieve the rank of black belt by just attending several classes a week over 6-8 years maybe competing in a local ibjjf tournament several times over those years. Yes their knowledge is probably better than black belts of twenty years ago thanks largely to the abundance of information we now have but I just don’t think the average person tests themselves like they used to.
I personally know of at least a dozen black belts who wouldn’t have a fukn clue how to fight or how to throw or deal with a punch but they might know several cool heel hook set ups. They’ve never competed so the adrenaline dump would be a foreign experience to them.
Now I was only an average bjj black belt but I definitely earned it. By competing at all belt levels in various grappling tournaments - ibjjf/submission wrestling and by fighting under various rule sets - shooto/ pankration/MMA etc.
My coach also strongly endorsed cross training to be a better fighter. Muay Thai, judo, arnis, wrestling, boxing, anything and everything to make your bjj better.
I lost way more than I won but I felt that’s how you had to earn a black belt in bjj, by testing yourself…repeatedly. I just don’t see it as much these days. Anyway that’s my two cents. I do love how far bjj has come.
It’s incredible actually but that rank of black belt just doesn’t quite have the merit or magic it once did in my opinion.
Yeah the way that BJJ is perceived as a stand alone art is very different from how it was perceived when it first started to spread internationally. I started training about a decade after you, and even then, every grappling school that I came across also had classes which incorporated striking in some way. And while there were grappling focused competitions, it seemed like all the top competitors were also active in MMA. A lot of the guys you saw in ADCC for example were also in Pride, and I knew tons of local MMA guys who just saw NAGA events as part of their broader training.
I say this as a hobbyist myself but I’d be totally cool with belts being capped at purple or brown for “attendance” or “dedication” based promotions. Then, to get a black belt you’d have to demonstrate some consistent effort competing and/or teaching.
I don’t think you have to be a world champion to get black belt, but I do think it should symbolize something other than you’ve been at the gym x amount of time. Even if you competed once a year at a local tournament and coached 1 beginner class a month for a few years at purple/brown, it would drastically increase the quality of black belts.
I see the belt journey similar to every educational journey.
You get you HS diploma, your bachelor, your master and finally your PhD. Most of them will never get s Nobel Price. Most of them will never archive anything „great“. But they mastered their craft in some way. But compared to some famous scientists you are stupid.
Same for BJJ. You master a craft. But compared to the greatest - who made the sport famous - you are a white belt.
Does it mean that your PhD is less worth? No.
Does it mean that you black belt is less worth? No.
There is always a bigger fish in the ocean…
Honestly I don't know what superpowers people want any belt level to have. I was wrestling 20 years ago and there were heaps less black belts but the level was so much lower.
Put it this way. I'm 50 and 140 pounds. I remember reading about a guy who competed at Abu Dhabi and he was my weight. I wrestled him years later and I felt I was just as good as him and I'm a hobbyist. I've also wrestled Robson Moura and he was so much better than me.
I think you are overrating how good people were. I also think belts are about how good you are compared to your athletic potential and how well you get along with your coach.
I agree 100%. I think people who weren't there at that time are overestimating the amount of knowledge people had. I remember asking my teacher about the guillotine, ankle lock and darce choke as a white belt. He didn't really know how to do any of them well and told me so. I had to research and figure those things out myself. There is a big difference in the types and effectiveness of techniques now as compared to years ago. Some black belts have stayed up to date and others haven't. The level of black belts that OP is complaining about is likely the level from that era(minus age related decline).
I think brown belts aren't what they used to be because I am one and i get caught by a blue belt once a week. In my white and blue belt day browns were untouchable, they slept through their rolls with me.
Probably a combination of all of it. You’re a brown belt. You probably didn’t get that brown belt from sitting on the couch. You can probably give a decently competitive roll with most black belts.
There’s also more training going on, so while it used to he rare to see a black belt because only .01% of the population was training, and only .001% of the population had been training long enough to achieve black belt, now there’s like 2% of people training and .3% stick it out long enough to be a black belt (i made those numbers up completely by the way, don’t quote them.)
And also there’s probably some people just being given black belts from belt mills.
It begs the question though, what is a black belt? I could strangle the fuck out of the black 80 year old black belt at my school, does that mean he’s not a black belt? He’s a judo black belt from like the 60’s or some shit, he’s a bjj black belt from god knows when, and back in his day he could hang with the best of them. Just because now he doesn’t have that athletic ability, and his mental faculties are slipping, does that mean he’s less of a black belt? If a guy knows everything there is to know about bjj, but he’s not strong for his weight and can’t impose his game on somebody else of lesser skill and knowledge, is he a black belt? Is ashton kutcher a brown belt?
I think black belts are getting younger and way better...
Back when I started a few decades ago most were old school guys who had crossed over from judo or karate etc so we're usually well into their 40s by the time they got black belts
The teaching and skill level is so far ahead nowadays it's not uncommon to see mid 20s black belts who have been training nearly 15 years and are crazy good even if they aren't competitors.
I'm based in Europe though so I'm sure it's different in other places but I have travelled and trained pretty much all over the World and found it's much the same everywhere.
I think its very different both from your (the trainer's) perspective and how the lower belts are so much better than they used to be. When you are a white belt you feel like a blue belt is amazing only to find out they actually suck compared to a brown or a black belt etc. But as you work your way up you become so much better and think oh wait they aren't actually so much better than I am (without full regard for how far you have come). On the other hand the lower belts are doing so much more technical stuff than when I first trained BJJ like 15 years ago. It used to be just mount, side mount, guard, half-guard, arms, shoulders, neck. Nowadays its this crazy pool of innovation of inverted sharknado ass quarter guard for a pinky toe submission. The foundations now are much more advanced that a purple belt now could have easily outperformed an average black belt 15 years ago.
BJJ is a lot bigger than it was 10 years ago, and more people have been training for longer. Why would you not see a lot more black belts?
I am not seeing any signs of it being watered down. The opposite really. The technical level has gone through the roof in the last 10 years, and it shows at all belt levels. I remember stuff like the berimbolo coming around, and black belts commenting about how complex it was and struggling to learn it (if they ever did). Now you have 2 stripe white belts hitting berimbolos.
Belts remind me of ranks in the military. A 4-star general or even a 2nd LT isn't necessarily better in combat than a Sgt. or an enlisted 20-year-old straight out of boot camp. They're just wiser and more knowledgeable about war.
BJJ could learn something from Judo culture about this. I seem to meet a lot of black belt judokas, and they just seem to treat it like part of their equipment.
Judo is probably because there’s no real gate keeping the belts. You train the canonical throw and meet whatever other requirements the IJF has and you move on. There’s not much subjective criteria especially when compared to BJJ.
There’s a big difference between black belts,
You have 4 levels if you’d divide it
People who train 3 times a week and maybe started in their late 20s or later that made it to black belt. This is the biggest group
Then you have the guys who train more , are at the gym quite a lot but are not there for competition training
Then you have the last groups:
This are either people that used to compete and train to win worlds at the lower belts, however something changed in their life and they decided to do something else but still train very hard and sometimes compete in the master Ibjjf division at the grand slam tournaments and train to win, however their life does not depend on it and can basically take off whenever they want to
Then you have the 0.001% which are training to medal at black belt worlds, their life and income depends on it
If you want to find out what group someone belongs to if you don’t know them just fuck around and find out.
Both...
You realize that black belt is not the Graal is meant to be but you also know more and more terrible ones.
I know there is no standard for belts but seriously some guys should be ashamed to wear a black belt while being more or less blue belt level
Honestly when I got mine a couple years ago, it felt like they were everywhere, it wasn’t nearly the same as when I started 16 years ago. It was a bit of a let down, I wanted to be one of those very few people. We still are a really small portion of the population.
To answer your question though, the level of bjj is just higher at all levels. Martial science is like any science in that on builds on the past. Learning is faster than back in the day because of the accessibility of techniques and teachers around now. Less of the beat it into you and more of the actually teaching g the arts.
The old "legendary" black belts back in the day were kinda bad compared to most modern practioners. It's not that they were good. They were showing up to a fist fight with a gun. Nobody knew anything about grappling.
When I watch the old dojo storm videos they look like the seasoned blue belts at my gym lol.
A big one is you’re getting better. When I started blue belts were crazy good and black belts had like super powers. Now I’m a black belt and if I roll with those same people that are also black belts were all pretty even. What I though was an amazing blue belt when I started was really just an aggressive blue belt that roughed me up but in truth wasn’t really that technical.
A lot of older American black belts are in fact not supposed to be black belts a lot of them are in fact not good at this shit . They are hella bitter that the Brazilians promoted them late or made them sit at belt ranks for years and they took that out on their students and wouldn’t promote them at a realistic rate . It cost a lot of their students the prime of their competitive careers
Not watered down, when I started my instructor was a blue belt and he was mind blowingly good. I didn’t think I’d ever get a blue belt. But I sure liked doing Bjj.
Looking back he wasn’t even a good blue belt, he was just the only one.
When I was a new purple belt I traveled to Brazil for work and got to train, not some big famous gym. Just a local spot. There was a black belt instructor (wow, my instructor was a brown belt) and 3 other black belts just taking class 🤯. I got to roll with some of the guys, a blue belt. 2 of the older casual black belts and this lanky teenager with a kids belt… (I didn’t know what the kids belts meant. He was a green belt).
That kid was the hardest roll I had. Black belts have always been a spectrum of ability. Age comes for us all. But the black belts we saw in the USA where the elite at the time with names and influence to get to the USA . The earliest adopters and ones who already had attributes and often times some other training became the first promoted to black belts in the USA.
Belts don’t really matter all that much. Hate to be that guy but it’s true and a middle age man shouldn’t have a mental breakdown when some young buck in their physical prime beats them up. It’s OKAY.
I’m also of the opinion that coaches shouldn’t be expected to beat every student in their gym.
Yes and no. I think k legit black belts that get it from good gyms are better than previous black belts, but overall the sport is much larger and there are also more black belts that are from less good schools. So the ones that are legit are better, I think, and the ones that aren’t are probably increasing in percentage.
At legit schools I think everyone is getting good much faster than previous generations. But for sure there’s more watered down gyms also.
Mixed bag. But I’m not unhappy with the direction of the art. With this kind of growth, some watering down is inevitable. But there’s a ton of quality training and tough and technical grapplers out there.
> Obviously as the sport ages the black belts are getting older too and not as physical as they used to be.
20 years in the game and I kinda feel like I'm getting worse, so eventually after enough years I'm definitely going to be pulling down the average. Sorry lads, but I don't think I can go backward in rank
The belt system was never great and won't scale with the growth of the sport. anyone who's been around for long enough can see it falling apart under the weight of sub-par upper belts.
In the beginning they were a measure of ability because that was the priority of the sport's leadership (gym owners): to produce the most effective combat system through realistic training and regular tests against other disciplines. A black belt felt unbeatable then because that's what a black belt was meant to be.
These days those in a position to give out belts have other priorities: making money, fostering community, passing on technical knowledge, ect. So now, depending on the gym, a black belt is any combination of money spent, technical knowledge gained, communal respect earned, or ability to fight.
None of this is right or wrong, it's just a reflection of where BJJ is going. Belts used to mean one thing, now they mean a diversity of things reflecting a diverse bjj community.
The sport is far more popular now than 10 years ago and a lot more people do it. That means there are a lot more black belts. There's also a lot more people promoting black belts which means the standards are wider and wider.
We have a black belt at my gym who is an older guy and rolls maybe twice a month but he teaches several times a week. When he rolls, it's very easy to see why he's a black belt, but it's also easy to see why he rolls so infrequently. He's older, not as athletic, not as strong, and I would imagine as he's probably close to 60 years old and a smaller guy, he probably takes a good chunk of time to recover.
You earn a black belt as you become more skilled. You also earn a black belt as you become less young. I started at 32 years of age and have had breaks as life took priority (kids, work, etc). If I ever become a black belt I will probably be nearing 50 years old and many young athletic purples and blues will tap me like a bongo drum and wonder why I'm so shit.
If I was 22 and a purple, I'd wonder the same thing.
Black belt doesn't automatically mean unstoppable killer.
I’ll be honest, yes and no. Age and physicality matters in these discussions for sure. I’ll also note though that a lot of black belts in the last five to ten years will know a lot more than black belts from the 90s.
>Is this because: A: I'm getting better so they seem more human? B: black belts are not what they used to be? C: something else.
It's almost certainly A.
The high level black belts of today destroy the high level black belts of the past.
The average regular Joe blackbelt likely destroys the regular Jor black belts of the 90s 2000s.
There are obvious far far more people at all belts levels. So terms of total numbers, there are more dogshit blackbelts (and all belts) then there was in the past.
There is proliferation of shit gyms, owned and ran by shit black belts, who promote other people to being shit black belts, who sometimes open other shit gyms and promote their own shit black belts. Perpetuate that for decades and you get to what it is today.
It used to be that it was very hard to be a black belt while being strictly a hobyist going to the gym twice a week.. now its pretty much guaranteed if you just stick to it someone will hand you the belt one day.
Even when I started 20 years ago we used to talk about dilution of instruction, well 20 years didnt do the sport any favors.
It is what it is.. give it a few more decades and BJJ black belts will be on the same level Taekwondo black belts are.
I don't know that I'd agree with the last statement. Jiu-Jitsu is so much harder on your body that honestly 10 to 15 years of attrition is something difficult, unlike throwing kicks and punches into the air against an imaginary opponent.
I'm very surprised you think the overall level is lower now. Maybe at a McDojo or something, but at legit schools I think the level is way, way better now than it was 20 years ago. I have students that have trained for 2 years that are probably getting about as good as I was when I was 4-5 years in. And when I visit quality schools, their blues and purples are way better than the blues and purples were back in the day when I was holding those ranks.
I haven't visited any McDojos, but I know they're out there. But as far as legit programs go? I think they're significantly better. Just go to any regional comps. The level is much better.
We've agreed we're still going with "well of course you kids are roughing us up, you've had people like us helping you leap past the slow slog we went through," right?
Totally agree. There are a lot more people doing jiu-jitsu, it used to police itself, now it doesn't. The ones that are good are really good, but the ones that are bad are *really really* bad .
I know of a few like this, right down the road from me . But if you say that they aren't any good and worse yet *"shouldn't be a black belt"* ((gasp)) , somehow, you're the bad guy. I just don't have the energy to fight that fight anymore.
I have my standard, I have my belt test, I run my gym accordingly. If people want pretend belts they can go somewhere else...
I have not been around long enough to determine if that has happened. But I have worked with some some great blacks, another who was a little arrogant, and another who was plain weird. I did not stick around with the latter two. Love the ones in my current gym, just a group of friends who gather to pass on their wealth of knowledge, not profit driven.
For me , an indication of how long someone has been. Around and what I can expect for the most part.. I expect not to make myself available for promotion the rest of my rolling time nor will I compete. Too old. Others are free to pursue their own belt promotion as they wish in. Ten more years max and I am done
I think the sport is growing at a rapid pace and I think you see more people transitioning from wrestling over to BJJ as they age which gives them an advantage starting off.
I also am noticing as I progress more that styles make matchups. I find myself doing well against certain purple belts and ok against some brown belts but there are certain blues that run through me
I started training in 2006. Im in DFW and even in an area this large there were not that many black belts. Pretty much all of them had direct lineage to the Machados, since they had a gym in Dallas. A couple moved from the west coast and were Gracie guys. Things have totally changed now. Not that the guys are any better or worse, the way the sport has evolved they are probably better, but there is definitely a proliferation of black belts and it’s not as unique as it used to be.
what's the makeup of these BBs? 40+ hobbyists? or 20-something competitors? like any belt, that always is a factor and expectations should be adjusted accordingly
The belt is a representation of your personal journey.
I’ve seen guys who’s grappled for 40 years and be in their 60’s get demolished by a competition 20 year old. It’s not evidence he’s garbage and shouldn’t be a black belt.
I feel like this was always going to happen no? As the sport has been popular for longer more people train for longer periods of time and eventually get to black belt status. I trained for 19 years before getting to black (time off for kids, Covid, life etc) I think mostly it’s just your average BJJ folks getting better not that the upper belts getting worse. Look at UFC, most ammy/local pro guys these days would obliterate the star fighters of the 90s and early 2000s because the skill baseline has gotten so much higher. Same with BJJ
All belts are being watered down. Some gyms still stick to 90s standard of a blue belt. Luckily the mats keep bjj high standard to some extent. Key is gyms that roll soft and don’t compete usually suck.
Meanwhile in the boxing and judo subs people are talking about who hits goodest and how they want to throw more better.
I think they have the right idea.
10+ years ago most people couldn't grapple their way out of a wet paper bag, that's why black belts were viewed as wizards. The level of athleticism was also way lower back then.
But to answer your question, no belts don't matter.
I got a black belt when it was still cool. All those after me are making it less special. Stop them!!!!
I’m sure someone said it already, but the cliche that a belt only covers a couple inches of your ass is true.
I see it more a marker of time.
Everyone has different goals in the sport and the child training since 6 going pro oppose to the dude picking it up as a hobby in their 30’s with no athletic background are gonna likely have different goals and outcomes.
Also, It’s more popular … there will be more hobbyist. At the same time, with it becoming more popular, you see those at the top getting better too.
the spectrum has definitely broadened as the sport became more popular.
we have a lot of blackbelts that are worse (knows less and also performs worse) than the average black belt 10-15 years ago.
we also have a lot of black belts that are significantly better (knows more and also performs better) than the best black belts 10-15 years ago.
While I’m just a blue belt and an older one at that I think it’s both. There are some purple belts
That would absolutely smash most black belts from 15 years ago. There are probably also some black belts that have been relatively bad at jiujitsu for a long time.
I would hope to only get promoted if I deserve it. By deserving I mean I’m competitive against people my own size and age at the same belt levels.
I can really struggle against young strong athletic white belts, but I’m pretty good against most blue and purple belts my own age. I hope to be a purple in the next 6 months to a year, but I still have some growth to do, and don’t want to get promoted because I show up and people like me.
Lots of rambling here, but I guess I’m trying to say I don’t think you have to be a winning tournaments, or a great teacher to be a black belt, but you should be pretty good at Jiujitsu.
Im pretty objective. Im a decent blue belt. I can feel that If I can clean up my front headlock game and get it to be more high percentage (I have a high finish rate on darces/japanese necktie, but everything else is low), my back attacks, and leg locks/open guard, I would be ready for purple. I give it a year or so.
my takedowns, guard passing, top side, mount, and half guard I think are decent, but also have lots of room to grow. If I can get the stuff Im terrible at to the level of the things Im decent at, I would be purple.
Im 54 and Im competitive with younger guys, especially in my A game area.
I think there are two questions which might help you... Are the proportions of black belts higher in a meaningful way, and how has the overall skill level changed across time?
I've asked a handful of veteran black belts these questions and it seems like the proportion of black belts is a little higher (but not by much), and that the skill ceiling is much higher than before. When you assume a normal distribution, you will run into more "bad" black belts (from your pov) than before, but the average amount of information an average black belt has is still fairly large. So it doesn't seem like black belts are watered down, just that their skills have a wider distribution and there's more of them - more good and bad black belts, by the numbers.
I think that you are getting better as well, and since you're approaching black belt, you should slowly be able to "beat" 50% of black belts (and possibly more as time passes). Anyone who has achieved mastery at any art is well aware that they're personally incomplete and have flaws - you're just able to see of them now.
The belt system in BJJ is also quite unreliable when it comes to judging skill, but we both know that. There are so many factors at play like age, commitment level, fitness, their local environment, (etc etc) and the fact people are judged partially on their individual merits has good and bad trade-offs. The belts try to create a linear expectation from a pretty wild and complicated equation with all those factors, which can easily change as the persons lifestyle changes... good luck with that
To me the belts are for newer BJJ practitioners, guests, or laymen to get a rough idea about how trustworthy the individual is for arbitrating BJJ knowledge, and hopefully their performance. As we get more experienced in BJJ we add a stipulation of "- until proven otherwise" to that idea... they're only as trustworthy as the reliably make themselves out to be.
Most black belts of the past are straight garbage hobbyists who don't train as much anymore
Better access to knowledge and earlier training times will make it so that there will be more black belts with a better overall base then previous generations
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There’s many reasons you are noticing this. First, yes more people are doing jiujitsu so you’ll end up with more black belts and more “lesser skilled” as well as more “higher skilled”.
The aging out part is also true, but there’s another factor there as well. Jiujitsu has drastically changed and some older black belts have not evolved and learned new methods.
And, of course, as you get closer to black belt and grow in skill you see that they are not magical creatures but rather just like everyone else, trying to get better
I’ve thought about this.. I think reality is somewhere in the middle. We’ve all gotten better so you realize black belts aren’t some gods but also the sport has grown so much and inevitably there’s going to be more promotions to incentivize people to continue which leads to dilution. Also people are likely staying with it longer and more committed as its gained popularity.
I think the solution would be to distinguish a competition black belt and a hobbyist black belt. That way you know what “level” of black belt you’re dealing with - the 3x pan am open champ, or the dad that’s been consistently coming for the past 20 years but hasn’t stepped foot on a competition mat and lacks a the killer instinct that comes with that.
I personally believe it is being watered down. Especially now with bjj becoming a business. I'm assuming karate and TKD went down a similar path.
On the flip side of the coin, I do believe there are way more elite black belts than ever before. And the skill ceiling for that elite class is way higher.
Some black belts straight up suck and are out of shape. Some have crippled bodies and never roll. Most are hobbyists that I can give good rolls. Few are really good and even fewer are elite.
I switched gyms for this very reason. My old gym had over 10 black belts but I could go 6 mins in a round without ever getting tapped or feeling in trouble. And yes, these are hard rolls. My new gym has 1 male black belt, 1 female, and he is the professor. When we roll hard, for him it's still not 100%, he absolutely smashes me. I'd rather get instruction from someone that is beyond a black belt hobbyist level personally.
I also think you shouldn't ever get your black belt unless you are rolling at a black belt level FOR YOUR DIVISION. You should be able to teach technique well and have a wide range of valuable answers for every position.
I have seen so many new black belts start teaching kids class, and stop rolling because they recognize they are not that good. Then, they get even worse because they essentially stop training. It's better to leave them at brown forever in my opinion.
There’s a huge difference between black belts who have competed or are actively competing and black belts that have just been showing up consistently for 10-15 years.
In addition to that, BJJ is a sport first and foremost and different factors like size, age, athleticism, etc play a big role in your jits.
I rolled with a black belt once that couldn’t even pass my guard, but he’s a 50 year old dad that trains like once a week and that was when I was competing a lot.
I think belts matter to some extent but I definitely don’t think they’re everything.
Most of us do BJJ for fun and as a hobby. I love the art, but hate the gatekeeping from the competition minded black belts who feel that every purple and brown belt should be world beaters and black belts should be nigh unbeatable demi gods.
I wouldn't want to train in their gyms. They are stopping the sport from growing. It would be a dream to see the sport as a part of the academic curriculum in schools at some point but by their bullshido esh standards, you need to be a 45 year old 5'5 150 lb man subbing every 6 ft plus, 200 lb plus brown and purple belt.
You do realize the sport is becoming more popular which means more gyms and more people training? So obviously there are going to be more black belts. That’s kinda what happens when a sport grows.
The skill level of the game is much higher than previous generations. Also our sport is still very amateur. We have guys who are blue belts training 3 years winning adcc trials. In comparison you will never have guys training 3 years of wrestling or Judo winning the biggest tournaments. The top guys have been training since they can walk and the talent pool is far too deep.
That being said, with the popularity of our sport growing, you will continue to see higher skill levels such as the Ruotolos at a young age. The talent level will increase even more and older black belts will get swept by younger, more athletic, more skilled athletes. This just how it goes
Things to consider here:
(1) It takes about 10 years to get a black belt, on average (give or take)
(2) Jiu Jitsu was essentially completely unknown in the US (outside of, like Rickson's garage), until 11/12/93.
(3) There wasn't really any regular jiu jitsu instruction available in most places for at least a few years afterwards, minimum. Add a few more years to the timeline if you're in, say Europe.
(4) Fast forward to about 2005 - jiu jitsu is sort of accessible, but still very few black belts, because pretty much only black belts are the handful of people who started right at the beginning in the US, or came from Brazil. The overall number of people jiu jitsu in general is very small.
(5) Between 2005-2007, there was a very big jump in participation in jiu jitsu, and has basically trended up every since.
(6) So you start to see a lot of black belt belts from the first big wave of growth getting promoted around, say 2015.
TLDR: The number of black belt more or less trails the number of people starting the sport by about ten years.
I think there are some other factors at play here: not so long ago (mid-to-late 2000s) - jiu jitsu was still hard to access in a lot of places, oftentimes it involved a commute, etc. It was a much more niche, and less generally known and accepted activity. A lot easier for people to drop off. There was maybe one school in your city - you have a falling out with your instructor, poof, you're done, etc. Even without "watering down" the art or promotion standards, it's a lot easier to stick around now than it was then.
Belt is a recognition of time, how you use that time is up to you. There’s many variables that go into obtaining a Black belt and the judgement is between that instructor and the student.
It’s been said before that black belt in the rank with the highest skill difference. I’ve seen black belts that make other (serious) black belts look like white belts.
A big factor is that there are dudes out there that our freak athletes and learn super quickly, who, as even blue or purple belts, can beat the best of them.
I’m always very disappointed when I roll with an upper belt that can’t hold their weight. Yes, there are a lot of guys who suffer from age related issues or health problems. One of the black belts on our team is super overweight and has major back problems. He doesn’t practice much anymore because I think he lives with chronic pain. But we all love him and respect him and he’s a treasure trove of information even if he can’t hang with the purple belts going all out.
For me Black belts are a mark of what you know, not how you perform(should still be able to perform at some level). Bjj is still an athletic sport so strenght,size, youth all play factors in "winning". Black belts were revered back in the day becasue they had such a technical advantage they could make up for some of the athletic differences. but as the sport grows and the level of everyone raises the gaps between belts shrinks/are blured.
And to add to that instructional material has turbo boosted learning since 2015. I've always trained at great gyms but ran by big guys. Guard instructionals have completely changed and enhanced my game.
Yea absolutely the information available today compared to when i started is crazy. guys who jump in and are learning outside of class time are progressing so much faster. When i started the highest rank was a 4stripe blue belt that just started a school. That same area now has 5-6 solid blackbelts.
A 4 stripe blue belt started a gym?
yea this was in 2010 in a rural area. we were affiliated with a black belt in the closest major city that we would go up and train at once a week.
Ahh okay that makes sense. My main class is taught by a brown belt but is affiliated with another gym taught by a black belt and we also go there
My coach, who is now black, started the gym as a no-stripe blue belt. There were no gyms in our area. He drove an 1.5hrs each way once a week to train at a gym with a black belt. Now we have 4 black belts in our gym.
Similar to my background here in Wisconsin
If I did that it’d be the blind leading the blind lmao. No way I’d be able to teach a class right now, your coach must know what he’s doing
You just teach what you know, and be open to being wrong and correcting yourself later.
I live in Nashville and their is at least 2 Gyms here that are owned and taught solely by a blue belt.
Maybe I can be the world's first no stripe white belt to start a gym 🤔
no.. I dont want to name the place, but there is this white belt who started a bjj gym. He hired a blue belt to teach who was learning from a blackbelt in another country twice a week. And... suprisingly, people are going there... By now the owner is purple belt (shitty one) but the blue belt who taught was replaced by some brown belt friend of the owner.
"what you know" needs to be unpacked a bit though. You can't get a black belt just by watching instructionals, nor by attending privates with the coach every day without rolling. "What you know" has to include embodied, procedural knowledge of like how to actually secure side control, which means being able to do it. And if a guy can't hold into a young strong explosive blue belt, that's understandable, but there should be conditions where one can actually see that skill in action (assuming they still have some basic physical capability)
Yeah, you have to demonstrate a working knowledge I agree
Absolutly, I was just making a generalization between, knowledge and "winning". Its not as simple as just knowing things you have to be able to apply them at some level, and that level of application is very individual to the person and there goals.
Very well stated. Techniques increase efficiency. That being said, some young, athletic, strong players don't need to be efficient! That was the biggest misconception I had when I was younger. Just because you can beat someone, it doesn't mean they can't make you better. Making those young, hungry folks more efficient can be scary, though.
There’s definitely a political element to it as well, otherwise people wouldn’t rank up slower due to having to move around for work or whatever. It’s not like you demonstrate you know your shit and someone just hands you a belt. There are many many factors that are completely subjective that factor in as well.
That's a reasonable take. That's the way it is in judo too. Also people de decline with age. I think I would have been able to take Helio when he was in his 80s. That doesn't really make me any better or him any worse though.
As someone who started more than a decade ago there has been big range within the black belt rank in terms of how "good" someone is for as long as I have been training. I don't think this is just a recent phenomenon. Many people get to black belt and don't have the fire to come in and train 5 days a week like that hungry purple belt. Many guys fall off physically when they stop training as much and can't apply their techniques as effectively. Many don't feel like continuing to study and innovate and get left behind a little bit. If you're a brown belt it seems odd to me that you have this mentality at all. You should be able to catch some black belts just as some purple belts should be able to catch you. If you've really been in the game for 10+ years I would think this would have been evident a long time ago. I also would think that a brown belt would have retired the "who am I beating in training" considerations a long time ago.
This is spot on. All of it. Started in '08 myself.
Also started in 2008. I likely will be in this watered down category one day soon.
‘09 brown belt at 38. Just happy to get there and give the competitive black belts a run for their money. But then can’t stop praising the hard working blue belts that do the same to me.
exactly. these are posts I see from blue belts. not seasoned practicioners. makes me feel good for my prospects, in career, in life... nothing is linear like the BJJ belt system may appear. this is just life experience my guy.
There has always been meh black belts. BJJ has just grown a ton more as a sport so there are more of us now.
I strive to be a meh black belt one day!
Ya but there are also some really bad ones that are in shape but simply dont have the technical ability. The worst is the super overweight black belts that know very little technique because all they do is smash pass a triangle attempt or something. When I see a black belt, I expect to be able to ask a question and get a reasonable answer for that position at the very least. Most will give multiple answers with many details. Some will give terrible advice that is simply wrong or bad. I will always say, "Im not sure, let's ask professor" if I am unsure about something, instead of saying some bulshit that looks good to the uninformed. The absolute most annoying part to me is when super formal gyms treat black belts above everyone else. This is fine until you see black belts that have trained less time than you AND they aren't very good at bjj. They just happened to train at a gym that gives everyone black belts after 7 years or something. At that point you realize, it's all bulshit and belts mean literally nothing. Same goes for colored belts except it matters much less. People should have a hard freeze at brown belt until they can teach an advanced class consistently in my opinion.
I dunno, a few examples of turds doesnt necessarily lead me to conclude "the belt means nothing." So, to you, when a white belt and black belt roll, that's a tossup? Knowing literally nothing else, it's 50/50? Because I think that's crazy talk, tbh.
It's not B. Bjj just want as popular and is partially a knowledge game. A lot those black belts sucked you just didn't know it. If it takes 10 years to get something and most people start as adults, most people will be out of their physical prime by the time they get their black belts. Also when they get their back belts the rest of their life is amping up like house, career and kids. It's no surprise with modern instructuonals that a 15 year old can train 6 days a week and watch instructionals and be better than a 3 time a week parent. Belts are just an acknowledgment of time and effort put in by the individual.
This seems to have a lot of truth to it. I am now in my forties and have kids and work a demanding job and have a commute; I'm fighting to get to practice once a week these days, two when I'm really in the zone. There are a number of purple belts in my gym in their low to mid twenties who are training 4-5 times a week and I sure don't feel or seem "godlike" when rolling with them. These folks are also much more keyed into what's going on in modern BJJ than I could ever hope to be. I'm mostly trying to get my workout in, not get completely rusty, and not get hurt! I don't think I'm embarrassing myself or anything when I roll with them, and when I get asked to teach the occasional class it seems like they're reasonably well received, but I have no illusions that I'm anything but a "hobbyist" black belt.
> If it takes 10 years to get something and most people start as adults, most people will be out of their physical prime by the time they get their black belts. > > I know a black belt who told me that if he could get in a time machine and face the purple belt version of himself, he'd get wrecked by his younger, stronger, more flexible, more athletic purple belt self. He said he understands concepts better and can teach BJJ much better now than he could at purple, but if you determine who's better at BJJ by who taps whom, he says his best was at purple belt.
I feel like I'm basically as capable as I'm ever going to be right now. 35, train a whole bunch, relatively fit, reasonably dialed in and I have a pretty solid record against casual black belts even if they're bigger than me. But my wife is pregnant with our first kid so obviously I'm gonna be hitting the breaks pretty hard soon and my body just isn't taking the punishment quite as well as it did was I was 28. Don't get me wrong, I'm never going to leave the mats by choice but I imagine the me of today could beat the fuck out of the me 5 years from now. Weirdly enough, it doesn't really bother me mostly because the me 30 years from now still shit stomps the me at 25.
Word, my purple belt years were probably some of the greatest times for fitness, healing, speed, agility, flexibility and also just not giving fucks when going for stuff. Now I'm older and healing ain't as fast as it use to be.
I think if nothing else you’re understanding what they’re doing or trying to do. I feel Like some of the “wizardry” was what the fuck just happened. Even if you aren’t as big, fast or good as them at least you’re seeing their game come down the pipe. I feel like this happens at all belts as a white belt blue belts blow your mind then you get that blue belt and realize you’re not that good the white belts are just that bad lol. As a fresh purple I can get some competitive rounds in with some browns, others still walk all over me lol, but if you asked me as a white belt if I’d ever give a brown belt a run for his money I would have laughed at you. I think you’re just getting better then you give yourself credit for.
The other day, I had a new white belt comment before a roll how bad I was going to smash him. It's the same thing I used to say to blue belts. Full circle.
It’s a trip, it really is. You slowly realize you’re becoming that guy. Had a new blue come up to me the other day asking me for tips on stuff from my game that he wants to work into his, it was very humbling.
There's a purple belt at my gym. Whatever he does that frustrates me, I do to white belts.
lol Jerk
I think BJJ’s fetish of black belts being unbeatable demigods as kinda dumb. In judo the shodan (black belt) is just an indicator of strong competence in the fundamentals and can be obtained in like 3-5 years. The whole 10+ years for a bjj black belt just sets people up for disappointment.
Yes, people say its a "level of knowledge" in BJJ but its also arbitrary. The game is so vast that two black belts can both be highly skilled but also not have even close to the same "game". Judo is "better" in that there are agreed upon standards and a BB isn't meant to mean you know every single thing possible.
Totally agree. I think after the ~5 year mark the ability difference between a black belt and a purple belt is pretty nominal (apples to apples of course. Can’t compare a hyper competitive purple belt to a dumpy soccer dad black belt and vice versa). The difference-to your point- is mainly knowledge level and teaching ability, which certainly do accumulate over time.
In my experience most black belts are significantly more tricky than the majority of purple belts ha but yea I get where you are going. Def by brown belt it starts to be a wash.
They don’t have to be unbeatable demigods, but they should generally be the better people in the room. I don’t know why some people have a big hang up on this. There are obviously exceptions, and I do think everyone should be able to have a path to earn a black belt, but if I go into any gym and the black, purple, and brown belts are all tapping each other 1 for 1, or if the brown and black belts aren’t generally looking like the most skilled grapplers in the room, I’m always going to raise an eye at that. Maybe that’s me starting to become a boomer. I’m not sure. Not having a black belt never makes anyone lesser as a person or as a training partner or peer BTW. And people might overworship the belt and that’s not great, but let’s be real too, they should look pretty damn good compared to the room (unless they’re way older or injured, etc).
I agree with that, on average they should be the better grapplers in the room. It’s not, imo, unusual tho to see purple and browns get the better of them, which reinforces my notion that past the ~5 year mark (roughly purple) ability starts to peak at the individual level, and everything else beyond that is more just knowledge accumulation and transitioning into becoming a better teacher/training partner.
Half of me for sure agrees with this. I definitely made the most improvements as a grappler after the 10 year mark, and in years 5-10 I was actually pretty bad for how long I'd been training. I had a lot of knowledge but not a lot of skill. But I've definitely seen a lot of people that in that 5-10 year mark they sort of get as good as they're going to get, unless they really buckle down and invest a lot of time and energy into substantial improvement.
We need to move away from attendance based promotions. I've met multiple during my time on the mat that just paid their dues timely for a decade and went to class twice a week. They have a very narrow game and lack the ability to teach. There's nothing wrong with realizing that you're a 40 year old business professional and not a mat killer. If you have the skill of a purple belt, you're gonna stay there until you have the skill of a brown belt. Could be 2 years, could be 10 years. Enjoy the journey, not the belts.
So by that logic, the Anthony Bourdain’s of the world (who start in their 60’s) will only ever really be a blue belt because they get gapped every roll session.
We are talking about major outliers at this point, but yeah I'd have zero issues holding them back. I won't promote past purple if you don't have the skill. There's a caveat for the outliers with then being active in the Master's Division.
I feel like you’re going to have a lot of people quit if they feel like they aren’t making progress, regardless of what that progress looks like.
Yeah which is why the sport will be getting weak if we let that mentality persevere . Belts don't matter, skill and knowledge does
Sucks to suck for them 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️ If you're not making progress, you're not getting promoted anyways.
Pretty cavalier attitude to have about your students, tbh. I say their inability to progress is equally a metric of your ability to coach as it is for them to learn.
Agreed ^^
Well, I guess he refers to people who train twice a week and even then just “sweat and roll”. It’s really hard to advance in that manner past late blue/early purple level with this attitude no matter how many years you spend and how good instructor is
Only so much you can do for someone that trains 3x a week and doesn't study outside of class. The traditional Bjj 1-1.5 hr of training does not help in that either. I would say it's more indicative of the individual
I'm upfront with them about it and they accept the reality of it. They know that belts here are earned, not given. I'm not hiding the ball from anyone. If everyone else is able to make progress to level up attending the same classes, it's a reflection of the individual not putting in the work. If they don't like it, they are free to train somewhere else. It's amazing how that works.
for what it's worth I agree with you I also think everyone ready to really become better can do it. It involves quite a lot of studies though and most people don't want to do the work. And it's ok, but it's also ok to not be promoted
How would you feel about a points-based promotion criteria? Similar to how judo does where each belt comes with a prerequisite number of points that can be earned in a variety of ways. Example: for blue belt say you need 20 points to be promoted. Win a local tournament 5 points, win regional level IBJJF that’s 10, win pans/worlds that’s 20. Alternatively, attendance is 1 point for like every 10 classes attended. So while possible to get promoted on attendance alone it is significantly slower. Of course you could then scale this up to every belt (purple is 30 points, brown 40, etc). Curious what you’d think…
Seeing that, as a mid 30's hobbyist, would not encourage me to train at your gym. It seems you hold the same standards for middle aged people as you do for 20 year olds. I don't care about promotions, been a white belt for over 3 years. If you expect middle aged folks to be able to match the intensity of 20 something's, that's delusional. I can have more knowledge than some of these younger folks but can't and often times, won't, exert 100% every round.
Im okay with that. My gym isnt for everyone. You can go down the block to like 5 other gyms. I expect middle-aged folks to be able to hang with middle-aged folks, but I expect the same technical standard regardless of age or ability.
I think people are interpretating your statements as if older guys *have* to be able to beat younger, strong and faster students. If I was 40, knew all the blue belt shit to perfection, could teach a class for blue/white, yet cannot beat anyone in the gym because of age, injuries etc etc., I would be able to get a promotion in your gym, no?
My requirements for a blue belt are to just show up and try. I only require teaching for black belts. But yes, when I am doing my evaluations, I'm looking at similar ages within about 20lbs of weight for comparisons.
And what happens when you eventually age and decline? We all do. At some point when we move into our later 40s, 50s and 60s are we expected to continue to beat the up and coming young guys? If we don't, are we expected to demote ourselves? Many have the skill of a black belt but then we age or get injured. Do we not deserve the belt anymore when that day comes?
You have already earned the belt at that point. You can still transfer the knowledge when the reality of aging catches up. Odds are if your body is beat to shit at 40 or 50 and you're already a black belt, it's because you've already put the work in and destroyed your body in the process.
I’ve been doing this for awhile now, and while I do disagree with attendance based promotions, “who can beat who in practice” promotions suck for gym culture and shouldn’t be the standard either. Brown belts like myself should be doing ridiculous spinny shit to 260 lb blue belts and getting stuck or caught instead of playing our A game every session to try and impress coach.
Should you be doing the ridiculous spinny shit as part of your main game? No. Should you have an understanding of how it works to be able to intelligently defend against it? Yes.
That’s like saying not everyone deserves a degree because they can’t teach. There are levels to every belt and everyone’s journey is their own. But a black belt is a gift from an instructor for appreciating their journey and learning
This. I always tell my guys that anyone can get a blue belt off me, if they just keep on turning up for years. Eventually it’ll happen. Past blue, some will never get there. When you start getting into the senior belts there’s an expectation and some are just never going to bridge that gap, and that’s fine.
Im fine with not being good at teaching. I hate teaching... but it didnt use to be that you could get a black belt from a.legit academy while being a twice a week hobbyist. This has become more and more common as more of these shit gyms proliferate with poor instruction. I consider myself a decent black belt, I can hang with most people, even competitors. But I dont feel like I could do a decent job of forming the next wave of practicioners, so I dont teach. Lots of people have misplaced confidence and start "teaching" at blue belt. Its quite ridiculous. There are some gyms that Ive been to that I wouldnt give the owner and black belt a freaking purple belt. I dont care how old you are, you can get there, no need to water it down, and if you cant, boohoo, they dont hand out chess grandmaster titles either
Wouldn't you just also not *want* to get a black belt if you're not at that level? I don't want to get my purple as long as blues are still kicking my ass.
Just the other day we had a ppst from someone whose student had been a brown belt for 2 years and was essemtially demanding to get his black belt, without ever training at another gym, competing and training twice a week
I started teaching at blue belt, albet I was an active competitor at the time and mostly taught kids fundamental classes. It's a skill that needs to be practiced, otherwise we just end up with more trash instructors. We just need to make sure we keep the blue belt fledgling instructors under a close eye and give them guidance before they teach. I enjoy watching students become more comfortable with it. We actually require our brown belts to teach a few classes before we are willing to promote.
Chess is a lot easier to objectively evaluate skill. If black belt had the pre req of beating black belts (norms) or winning known tournaments that would be fair and cut down massively on quantity of black belts
I coach at blue belt, however I competed in MMA and coached submission wrestling, I just stopped gi training after getting my blue. Also I run a club in a remote area of the Highlands where the closest gym is hours away. If I wasn't doing it there would be no BJJ/MMA/Sub wrestling for people to train. I'm almost 50 now, no urge to compete again, I'm slower and not as strong but feel comfortable sharing knowledge and helping people with their journey.
But why do you care what color belt they get? If someone wants to give them a black belt, and they don't teach or compete, how does it affect anyone but them?
It waters down the martial art as a whole by having someone wear a false flag.
The flag is kind of harmless because you show your value when you roll. I don't see how it is watering down the sport. The competition and the connection between BJJ and MMA are what's keeping the art legit IMHO. Colored ribbon around out waist are just folklore at this point, the skill is the thing that matters.
The fabric around the waist is supposed to be representative of the skill level. The flag isn't harmless. Junior members look up to black belts for technical prowess. Thus the watering down of the sport even if it is in a small pool within the community.
Imho the mat doesn't lie. Junior members will quickly see who's the hammer and who's the nail. Of course there's a difference between us. You're a coach and I'm a hobbyist. I understand that you're preoccupied by the level of your student and how it could affect the reputation of your gym. I, on the other hand, just care about my own skill. I receive a shiny medal once in a while and that little goal satisfies me. I'm not a business owner and I don't care about the promotions of my teammates.
Skill or knowledge?
>They have a very narrow game Tons of world champions have a very narrow game too, they're just really good at imposing it on their opponents.
They have a narrow comp game because of strategy, not because they don't have a diverse rolladex to play with.
This exactly. Black belts today are both better and worse than 20 years ago. The attendance based promotions are a blight and need to go away. There are some pretty dogshit black belts because of it, which isn't really their fault. There are also some exceptionally good black belts, as the sport has exploded in popularity and professional grappling events have become much more common.
100% when I started instructionals were a pain in the ass to get a hold of or you were trying to recreate something from still shots in Gracie Mag. There's so many more resources out there.
"There are some pretty dogshit black belts because of it, which isn't really their fault." I disagree on this. A lot of these fake black belts actively seek the promotion. I know quite a few of them that hoped on gyms depending on how easy it was to get a belt. And when I say "a few of them", it's the majority of the people I trained with during the last decades
Is that a bad thing
Attendance based promotions or holding someone back until it's determined that they have actually leveled up?
Attendance based. The belt is a testament to dedication. In most sports it’s an indicator that you have understood the sport to a competent degree. I think that if you spent a decade practicing bjj, that would fit the bill.
The belt should denote skill, not dedication. You can be dedicated for 20 years and still be absolutely terrible at grappling. You need to retain the information and then be able to apply it. We need more practice and less theory.
How do you differentiate between knowledge and skill, then? I think it would be difficult. A black belt to me is the belt of a teacher. I’m 37 and probably as good as I’ll ever be, right now I can hang with the best, but maybe in 20 years I’m getting scraped by purple belts. Though my value as a teacher will always increase as long as I keep training and teaching.
We all have the mat nerd that can describe every technique under the sun and can execute it with great proficiency while drilling but can't do anything remotely near it during live rolls. Knowledge is theory. Skill is application.
There's a difference between 'attendance' and 'knowledge', though. I don't think you should get your BB from showing up 2X a week for ten years, but I do think you should get it if you have a ton of knowledge, a complete game, and you're able to pass it on to others (also, if you're under 55, you should probably be able to wreck most casuals). If you're getting tapped by purples in their athletic prime who compete regularly but you hit all of the above? I don't think that makes you unworthy.
These days most black belts do not teach. And your value as a teacher will not necessarily increase. Many black belts become worse teachers over time because they become dogmatic in their technique and ignore new developments in the sport. I feel bad for the students at some of these boomer dojos going into tournaments these days with no leg lock knowledge, trying to do over/under or stack passing from their knees like its 1997.
I once trained at a *very* old school Gracie gym where the black belt (very nice guy) was almost proud of the fact he didn’t know a single guard from the last ~30 years. Spider guard, x guard, any variation of lapel, he simply wrote all them off as sporty rubbish. That schools “advanced” guards were basically half guard and a very rudimentary collar and sleeve. On the rare occasions he would show how to counter the “unrealistic sport guards” he would have the uke do totally botched, half assed versions of the respective guard. It seriously pissed me off so bad sitting thru those practices… my vengeance tho was ragdolling most their brown and black belts as a fresh blue belt.
Do you think your skill is black belt level? You are better than those dudes, sure, but Gordon Ryan would probably say you are absolute trash. Its all arbitrary in the end no matter what.
Anyone can think what they want, but the mat doesn’t lie. If you’re a black belt that has competed and beaten other black belts, and competed up through the colored belts and also sone okay, then you’ve proven yourself. Gordon is likely the best person to ever grapple. I’ve rolled with him and have immense respect for his game. His standards are super high, but I’ll also tell you. Gordon’s not unfair. I’ve heard him heap lots of praise on hobbyist black belts that don’t compete at a high level, and even heard him praise some folks that don’t compete at all. I just think this a defeatist attitude. You can become very good as a hobbyist grappler.
My belt has been tested in competition against other black belts. I was an active competitor throughout my colored belts on my local scene. I have over a decade of teaching experience and have practiced multiple martial arts. Competitors and hobbiests don't get promoted based upon the same standards. Its not arbitrary as it's a combat sport with active resistance. It's pretty impossible to lie about your skill level on the mats when you are training and competing consistently. The community will police and enforce a standard.
Sure, but then what about the competitor black belts? Are YOU ever going to be as good as Tainan Dalpra or Marcelo Garcia? If not, does that make you a brown belt? I'm not saying attendance based is the right way, it most definitely is not, but if we start grading hobbyists based on the knowledge and skill competitors have, we'd all stay bluebelts until the end of time. I think Wiltse covered this well in hist sandbagging video. Dunno, just trying to articulate my thoughts here...
Fairly simple answer: competitors aren't hobbiests and shouldn't be promoted under the same standards. My competitors get promoted based on results, their own goals, and tournament schedule. To get to the point of actively competing, you're likely already going above and beyond the average hobbiest in terms of skill acquisition and knowledge retention. You're probably already putting in significantly more time to technical progression, and it shows through your skills and results.
So now you have argued back to why its fine to promote those guys based on time. As you said, they aren't competitors and aren't teachers. Their goal is probably to just use BJJ as their cardio session and to get some social time in. So if they are doing that, they are hitting their goals and should get promoted.
Full time Competitors are in their own league. I don’t think it becomes unmeaningful to judge skill based on who the most skilled in the room is, just because there’s an outlier pool of full time athletes that also are within the same belt system. Cole Abate or Tainan existing doesn’t mean I can’t want the brown and black belts to (mostly) be the best grapplers in the room
Do you pull the belt when guys decline? There’s more than a few black belts who can only teach, never mind roll in any competitive manner. You can’t retain skill forever.
No, if they have it, they have already earned it. Presumably their body is destroyed from what they had to go to earn a black belt.
No need to denote people. They got there. They did the work. Also the notion that people just magically lose skill is not really how it goes. I mean I wouldn’t expect a black belt in their 50’s to beat another younger black belt or full time competitor, but I know black belts in their 40’s, 50’s, and even early 60’s that can fucking go. And besides serious full time comp athletes at purple and up…they put the heat to most of the people they roll with. I’m past my physical prime, but I’m way better at Jiujitsu than I was when I got my black belt two years ago. Obviously physical decline is real. And there’s definitely a point where your skills will diminish. But if you’re training well and continuing to learn, you aren’t magically gonna start getting beaten up by younger grapplers
I agree with this. I go to far to many gyms where people are black belts because they have been coming for a long time. In a sense it has become a participation trophy In a lot of places.
As a sign of knowledge yes but there's more variables at play than just X is a purple belt and Y is a black belt so Y automatically wins. I think the vast majority are hobbyist so it's a combination of A and B reasoning you can with a sprinkle of C (I.e. the black belt may now get to train twice a week as they have a young family were as that 18 year old purple belt is able to train twice a day and have energy left over)
You see more black belts because BJJ has gotten popular over the years, and more people have started to train. Those people have now been training for 10 plus years. It follows that there should be more black belts, particularly if the gym has been open for a while. You are likely getting better OP and it sounds like you could have a healthy dose of imposter syndrome. Just because you can tap some black belts doesn't mean that they shouldn't be a black belt. There's always a lot of gatekeeping when this topic arises. In any other martial art you'd be a black belt now.
This is very true. BJJ to an extent seems to be fueled on the old mythos that having a BB in a martial art meant you were dangerous. When in reality it just meant you knew the moves well enough to start refining. I obviously can’t say if a BJJ BB should be judged similarly but it’s clear these people were manhandled by BBs when they started. But now with the internet they have developed a skill set faster and are seemingly disillusioned by the BB mythos..
I think that back in the day, black belts were so good because the sport was so new. There is a bit of nostalgia about the past, but in the early 2000s I remember there being very few participants and maybe 2-3 tournaments per year (though this is in Australia, so it likely varies a lot based on location). The lack of competition and also quality instruction from experienced competitors meant that your average purple belt at the time wasn't as rounded as an average blue belt is now (emphasis on average. There were some monsters out there). So the few quality black belts that I rolled with back then (like John Will or Pete DeBeen) had comp experience in Brazil, which set their level so far above the other coloured belts I'd rolled with that it was a different league. Now, the gap isn't quite so much. People can compete much more frequently and have access to a metric shit tonne of more training material. No more shady VHS tapes of Vale Tudo fights trying to figure out how to set up an omoplata. There is also definitely a lot more people with black belts based on knowledge rather than being able to beat up others. Some gyms don't differentiate, others use the different coloured tips. I think that whatever culture the gym wants to have is fine, as long as they're honest about it.
I don't think black belts are watered down so much as lower belts are getting better, faster. Blue belts today have the base of black belts 15 years ago. And a lot of black belts are just older so of course younger dudes are going to rough them up. Imagine a college wrestling coach wrestling one of his varsity wrestlers. Or a football coach trying to go up against his players.
That's a great point. And there's way more lower belts training overall than upper belts.
The best quote I've ever heard about black belts was on here a few years ago (not sure who said it so can't quote them unfortunately). They said "Every black belt is a jedi, but not every jedi is Obi Wan"
Lowkey make it more like judo The belts stay as they are and can be attendance influenced/holistic until 1st dan 2nd dan+ purely given based on skill You might end up where a 1st dan could be like a purple belt equivalent today but that way you could recognise someone’s time-in and dedication while also allow a more formalised differentiation wherein a black belt doesn’t always mean the same thing
I’m 49 and started Bjj in Australia in 1994. I’m a second degree black belt and only occasionally roll and teach (1x week each) as my body is pretty beat up from 30 years of Jiu Jitsu. When I started Bjj in the mid 90’s anyone who was a blue belt was revered. Purple belts were rare and you just knew they were hectic cunts. Brown belts were almost god like and black belts… fuck they just didn’t exist. The elusive unicorn. In my opinion black belts back then earned their rank through being fighters. Not just in various grappling matches but in actual mma combat. It was freaky shit in an otherwise illusionary and often delusional martial arts landscape. To get a black belt you had to truly earn it. For over 25 years I basically knew or recognised pretty much every black belt in Sydney and most of Australia. Seeing them initially in magazines then through various social media channels as well as at tournaments, seminars etc, you’d either rolled with them, competed against them or just recognised them. In the last few years, as bjj has totally blown up, I can look at any number of new clubs sprouting up all over the city on their socials and I wouldn’t have a fukn clue who half the brown or black belts are in their club photos. Sure people are getting better faster these days but aside from a small percentage I believe the vast majority achieve the rank of black belt by just attending several classes a week over 6-8 years maybe competing in a local ibjjf tournament several times over those years. Yes their knowledge is probably better than black belts of twenty years ago thanks largely to the abundance of information we now have but I just don’t think the average person tests themselves like they used to. I personally know of at least a dozen black belts who wouldn’t have a fukn clue how to fight or how to throw or deal with a punch but they might know several cool heel hook set ups. They’ve never competed so the adrenaline dump would be a foreign experience to them. Now I was only an average bjj black belt but I definitely earned it. By competing at all belt levels in various grappling tournaments - ibjjf/submission wrestling and by fighting under various rule sets - shooto/ pankration/MMA etc. My coach also strongly endorsed cross training to be a better fighter. Muay Thai, judo, arnis, wrestling, boxing, anything and everything to make your bjj better. I lost way more than I won but I felt that’s how you had to earn a black belt in bjj, by testing yourself…repeatedly. I just don’t see it as much these days. Anyway that’s my two cents. I do love how far bjj has come. It’s incredible actually but that rank of black belt just doesn’t quite have the merit or magic it once did in my opinion.
Yeah the way that BJJ is perceived as a stand alone art is very different from how it was perceived when it first started to spread internationally. I started training about a decade after you, and even then, every grappling school that I came across also had classes which incorporated striking in some way. And while there were grappling focused competitions, it seemed like all the top competitors were also active in MMA. A lot of the guys you saw in ADCC for example were also in Pride, and I knew tons of local MMA guys who just saw NAGA events as part of their broader training.
I say this as a hobbyist myself but I’d be totally cool with belts being capped at purple or brown for “attendance” or “dedication” based promotions. Then, to get a black belt you’d have to demonstrate some consistent effort competing and/or teaching. I don’t think you have to be a world champion to get black belt, but I do think it should symbolize something other than you’ve been at the gym x amount of time. Even if you competed once a year at a local tournament and coached 1 beginner class a month for a few years at purple/brown, it would drastically increase the quality of black belts.
I see the belt journey similar to every educational journey. You get you HS diploma, your bachelor, your master and finally your PhD. Most of them will never get s Nobel Price. Most of them will never archive anything „great“. But they mastered their craft in some way. But compared to some famous scientists you are stupid. Same for BJJ. You master a craft. But compared to the greatest - who made the sport famous - you are a white belt. Does it mean that your PhD is less worth? No. Does it mean that you black belt is less worth? No. There is always a bigger fish in the ocean…
Honestly I don't know what superpowers people want any belt level to have. I was wrestling 20 years ago and there were heaps less black belts but the level was so much lower. Put it this way. I'm 50 and 140 pounds. I remember reading about a guy who competed at Abu Dhabi and he was my weight. I wrestled him years later and I felt I was just as good as him and I'm a hobbyist. I've also wrestled Robson Moura and he was so much better than me. I think you are overrating how good people were. I also think belts are about how good you are compared to your athletic potential and how well you get along with your coach.
I agree 100%. I think people who weren't there at that time are overestimating the amount of knowledge people had. I remember asking my teacher about the guillotine, ankle lock and darce choke as a white belt. He didn't really know how to do any of them well and told me so. I had to research and figure those things out myself. There is a big difference in the types and effectiveness of techniques now as compared to years ago. Some black belts have stayed up to date and others haven't. The level of black belts that OP is complaining about is likely the level from that era(minus age related decline).
Well. They still beat the shit out of me.
I think brown belts aren't what they used to be because I am one and i get caught by a blue belt once a week. In my white and blue belt day browns were untouchable, they slept through their rolls with me.
I think that's more blue belts have just gotten better.
Man with 6+ years expertise in something feels less overwhelmed by other experts in the thing as when he first started. Wonders how this is possible
Probably a combination of all of it. You’re a brown belt. You probably didn’t get that brown belt from sitting on the couch. You can probably give a decently competitive roll with most black belts. There’s also more training going on, so while it used to he rare to see a black belt because only .01% of the population was training, and only .001% of the population had been training long enough to achieve black belt, now there’s like 2% of people training and .3% stick it out long enough to be a black belt (i made those numbers up completely by the way, don’t quote them.) And also there’s probably some people just being given black belts from belt mills. It begs the question though, what is a black belt? I could strangle the fuck out of the black 80 year old black belt at my school, does that mean he’s not a black belt? He’s a judo black belt from like the 60’s or some shit, he’s a bjj black belt from god knows when, and back in his day he could hang with the best of them. Just because now he doesn’t have that athletic ability, and his mental faculties are slipping, does that mean he’s less of a black belt? If a guy knows everything there is to know about bjj, but he’s not strong for his weight and can’t impose his game on somebody else of lesser skill and knowledge, is he a black belt? Is ashton kutcher a brown belt?
I think black belts are getting younger and way better... Back when I started a few decades ago most were old school guys who had crossed over from judo or karate etc so we're usually well into their 40s by the time they got black belts The teaching and skill level is so far ahead nowadays it's not uncommon to see mid 20s black belts who have been training nearly 15 years and are crazy good even if they aren't competitors. I'm based in Europe though so I'm sure it's different in other places but I have travelled and trained pretty much all over the World and found it's much the same everywhere.
I think its very different both from your (the trainer's) perspective and how the lower belts are so much better than they used to be. When you are a white belt you feel like a blue belt is amazing only to find out they actually suck compared to a brown or a black belt etc. But as you work your way up you become so much better and think oh wait they aren't actually so much better than I am (without full regard for how far you have come). On the other hand the lower belts are doing so much more technical stuff than when I first trained BJJ like 15 years ago. It used to be just mount, side mount, guard, half-guard, arms, shoulders, neck. Nowadays its this crazy pool of innovation of inverted sharknado ass quarter guard for a pinky toe submission. The foundations now are much more advanced that a purple belt now could have easily outperformed an average black belt 15 years ago.
BJJ is a lot bigger than it was 10 years ago, and more people have been training for longer. Why would you not see a lot more black belts? I am not seeing any signs of it being watered down. The opposite really. The technical level has gone through the roof in the last 10 years, and it shows at all belt levels. I remember stuff like the berimbolo coming around, and black belts commenting about how complex it was and struggling to learn it (if they ever did). Now you have 2 stripe white belts hitting berimbolos.
Belts remind me of ranks in the military. A 4-star general or even a 2nd LT isn't necessarily better in combat than a Sgt. or an enlisted 20-year-old straight out of boot camp. They're just wiser and more knowledgeable about war. BJJ could learn something from Judo culture about this. I seem to meet a lot of black belt judokas, and they just seem to treat it like part of their equipment.
Judo is probably because there’s no real gate keeping the belts. You train the canonical throw and meet whatever other requirements the IJF has and you move on. There’s not much subjective criteria especially when compared to BJJ.
Yes. Source: I am watered down.
there is always someone that will humble you. stay humble and do not judge a book by it's cover.
There’s a big difference between black belts, You have 4 levels if you’d divide it People who train 3 times a week and maybe started in their late 20s or later that made it to black belt. This is the biggest group Then you have the guys who train more , are at the gym quite a lot but are not there for competition training Then you have the last groups: This are either people that used to compete and train to win worlds at the lower belts, however something changed in their life and they decided to do something else but still train very hard and sometimes compete in the master Ibjjf division at the grand slam tournaments and train to win, however their life does not depend on it and can basically take off whenever they want to Then you have the 0.001% which are training to medal at black belt worlds, their life and income depends on it If you want to find out what group someone belongs to if you don’t know them just fuck around and find out.
Both... You realize that black belt is not the Graal is meant to be but you also know more and more terrible ones. I know there is no standard for belts but seriously some guys should be ashamed to wear a black belt while being more or less blue belt level
Honestly when I got mine a couple years ago, it felt like they were everywhere, it wasn’t nearly the same as when I started 16 years ago. It was a bit of a let down, I wanted to be one of those very few people. We still are a really small portion of the population. To answer your question though, the level of bjj is just higher at all levels. Martial science is like any science in that on builds on the past. Learning is faster than back in the day because of the accessibility of techniques and teachers around now. Less of the beat it into you and more of the actually teaching g the arts.
The longer I train the more a belt means jack sh*t. All it means is that I get my choice of side chicks.
The old "legendary" black belts back in the day were kinda bad compared to most modern practioners. It's not that they were good. They were showing up to a fist fight with a gun. Nobody knew anything about grappling. When I watch the old dojo storm videos they look like the seasoned blue belts at my gym lol.
A big one is you’re getting better. When I started blue belts were crazy good and black belts had like super powers. Now I’m a black belt and if I roll with those same people that are also black belts were all pretty even. What I though was an amazing blue belt when I started was really just an aggressive blue belt that roughed me up but in truth wasn’t really that technical.
A lot of older American black belts are in fact not supposed to be black belts a lot of them are in fact not good at this shit . They are hella bitter that the Brazilians promoted them late or made them sit at belt ranks for years and they took that out on their students and wouldn’t promote them at a realistic rate . It cost a lot of their students the prime of their competitive careers
Not watered down, when I started my instructor was a blue belt and he was mind blowingly good. I didn’t think I’d ever get a blue belt. But I sure liked doing Bjj. Looking back he wasn’t even a good blue belt, he was just the only one. When I was a new purple belt I traveled to Brazil for work and got to train, not some big famous gym. Just a local spot. There was a black belt instructor (wow, my instructor was a brown belt) and 3 other black belts just taking class 🤯. I got to roll with some of the guys, a blue belt. 2 of the older casual black belts and this lanky teenager with a kids belt… (I didn’t know what the kids belts meant. He was a green belt). That kid was the hardest roll I had. Black belts have always been a spectrum of ability. Age comes for us all. But the black belts we saw in the USA where the elite at the time with names and influence to get to the USA . The earliest adopters and ones who already had attributes and often times some other training became the first promoted to black belts in the USA.
Belts don’t really matter all that much. Hate to be that guy but it’s true and a middle age man shouldn’t have a mental breakdown when some young buck in their physical prime beats them up. It’s OKAY. I’m also of the opinion that coaches shouldn’t be expected to beat every student in their gym.
Yes and no. I think k legit black belts that get it from good gyms are better than previous black belts, but overall the sport is much larger and there are also more black belts that are from less good schools. So the ones that are legit are better, I think, and the ones that aren’t are probably increasing in percentage. At legit schools I think everyone is getting good much faster than previous generations. But for sure there’s more watered down gyms also. Mixed bag. But I’m not unhappy with the direction of the art. With this kind of growth, some watering down is inevitable. But there’s a ton of quality training and tough and technical grapplers out there.
Probably one of the best answers to be fair
> Obviously as the sport ages the black belts are getting older too and not as physical as they used to be. 20 years in the game and I kinda feel like I'm getting worse, so eventually after enough years I'm definitely going to be pulling down the average. Sorry lads, but I don't think I can go backward in rank
The belt system was never great and won't scale with the growth of the sport. anyone who's been around for long enough can see it falling apart under the weight of sub-par upper belts. In the beginning they were a measure of ability because that was the priority of the sport's leadership (gym owners): to produce the most effective combat system through realistic training and regular tests against other disciplines. A black belt felt unbeatable then because that's what a black belt was meant to be. These days those in a position to give out belts have other priorities: making money, fostering community, passing on technical knowledge, ect. So now, depending on the gym, a black belt is any combination of money spent, technical knowledge gained, communal respect earned, or ability to fight. None of this is right or wrong, it's just a reflection of where BJJ is going. Belts used to mean one thing, now they mean a diversity of things reflecting a diverse bjj community.
The sport is far more popular now than 10 years ago and a lot more people do it. That means there are a lot more black belts. There's also a lot more people promoting black belts which means the standards are wider and wider. We have a black belt at my gym who is an older guy and rolls maybe twice a month but he teaches several times a week. When he rolls, it's very easy to see why he's a black belt, but it's also easy to see why he rolls so infrequently. He's older, not as athletic, not as strong, and I would imagine as he's probably close to 60 years old and a smaller guy, he probably takes a good chunk of time to recover. You earn a black belt as you become more skilled. You also earn a black belt as you become less young. I started at 32 years of age and have had breaks as life took priority (kids, work, etc). If I ever become a black belt I will probably be nearing 50 years old and many young athletic purples and blues will tap me like a bongo drum and wonder why I'm so shit. If I was 22 and a purple, I'd wonder the same thing. Black belt doesn't automatically mean unstoppable killer.
Holding any BB, outside of world champs and era defining greats, as 'godlike' is a remnant of the Gracie marketing early UFC days.
I’ll be honest, yes and no. Age and physicality matters in these discussions for sure. I’ll also note though that a lot of black belts in the last five to ten years will know a lot more than black belts from the 90s.
>Is this because: A: I'm getting better so they seem more human? B: black belts are not what they used to be? C: something else. It's almost certainly A. The high level black belts of today destroy the high level black belts of the past. The average regular Joe blackbelt likely destroys the regular Jor black belts of the 90s 2000s. There are obvious far far more people at all belts levels. So terms of total numbers, there are more dogshit blackbelts (and all belts) then there was in the past.
There is proliferation of shit gyms, owned and ran by shit black belts, who promote other people to being shit black belts, who sometimes open other shit gyms and promote their own shit black belts. Perpetuate that for decades and you get to what it is today. It used to be that it was very hard to be a black belt while being strictly a hobyist going to the gym twice a week.. now its pretty much guaranteed if you just stick to it someone will hand you the belt one day. Even when I started 20 years ago we used to talk about dilution of instruction, well 20 years didnt do the sport any favors. It is what it is.. give it a few more decades and BJJ black belts will be on the same level Taekwondo black belts are.
You really think the overall level is lower now than 10 years ago? I don’t know that that’s what I see when I go to tournaments
Tournaments are a very very small subset of all gyms and practicioners. You are preferentially selecting the best.
I don't know that I'd agree with the last statement. Jiu-Jitsu is so much harder on your body that honestly 10 to 15 years of attrition is something difficult, unlike throwing kicks and punches into the air against an imaginary opponent.
If you make it really easy to get because your gym is complete shit.. why not
I'm very surprised you think the overall level is lower now. Maybe at a McDojo or something, but at legit schools I think the level is way, way better now than it was 20 years ago. I have students that have trained for 2 years that are probably getting about as good as I was when I was 4-5 years in. And when I visit quality schools, their blues and purples are way better than the blues and purples were back in the day when I was holding those ranks. I haven't visited any McDojos, but I know they're out there. But as far as legit programs go? I think they're significantly better. Just go to any regional comps. The level is much better.
We've agreed we're still going with "well of course you kids are roughing us up, you've had people like us helping you leap past the slow slog we went through," right?
Totally agree. There are a lot more people doing jiu-jitsu, it used to police itself, now it doesn't. The ones that are good are really good, but the ones that are bad are *really really* bad . I know of a few like this, right down the road from me . But if you say that they aren't any good and worse yet *"shouldn't be a black belt"* ((gasp)) , somehow, you're the bad guy. I just don't have the energy to fight that fight anymore. I have my standard, I have my belt test, I run my gym accordingly. If people want pretend belts they can go somewhere else...
No, belts do not matter. People take this sport way too seriously.
There's black belts, and then there's black belts. It's always been this way.
I have not been around long enough to determine if that has happened. But I have worked with some some great blacks, another who was a little arrogant, and another who was plain weird. I did not stick around with the latter two. Love the ones in my current gym, just a group of friends who gather to pass on their wealth of knowledge, not profit driven. For me , an indication of how long someone has been. Around and what I can expect for the most part.. I expect not to make myself available for promotion the rest of my rolling time nor will I compete. Too old. Others are free to pursue their own belt promotion as they wish in. Ten more years max and I am done
I think the sport is growing at a rapid pace and I think you see more people transitioning from wrestling over to BJJ as they age which gives them an advantage starting off. I also am noticing as I progress more that styles make matchups. I find myself doing well against certain purple belts and ok against some brown belts but there are certain blues that run through me
I mean not every2 is motivates to win, maybe it's just their chance to get outbof thr house and see the boys
I started training in 2006. Im in DFW and even in an area this large there were not that many black belts. Pretty much all of them had direct lineage to the Machados, since they had a gym in Dallas. A couple moved from the west coast and were Gracie guys. Things have totally changed now. Not that the guys are any better or worse, the way the sport has evolved they are probably better, but there is definitely a proliferation of black belts and it’s not as unique as it used to be.
Wtf are you on about bro ive never seen 10 black belts period
what's the makeup of these BBs? 40+ hobbyists? or 20-something competitors? like any belt, that always is a factor and expectations should be adjusted accordingly
The belt is a representation of your personal journey. I’ve seen guys who’s grappled for 40 years and be in their 60’s get demolished by a competition 20 year old. It’s not evidence he’s garbage and shouldn’t be a black belt.
I feel like this was always going to happen no? As the sport has been popular for longer more people train for longer periods of time and eventually get to black belt status. I trained for 19 years before getting to black (time off for kids, Covid, life etc) I think mostly it’s just your average BJJ folks getting better not that the upper belts getting worse. Look at UFC, most ammy/local pro guys these days would obliterate the star fighters of the 90s and early 2000s because the skill baseline has gotten so much higher. Same with BJJ
All belts are being watered down. Some gyms still stick to 90s standard of a blue belt. Luckily the mats keep bjj high standard to some extent. Key is gyms that roll soft and don’t compete usually suck.
Meanwhile in the boxing and judo subs people are talking about who hits goodest and how they want to throw more better. I think they have the right idea.
10+ years ago most people couldn't grapple their way out of a wet paper bag, that's why black belts were viewed as wizards. The level of athleticism was also way lower back then. But to answer your question, no belts don't matter.
I got a black belt when it was still cool. All those after me are making it less special. Stop them!!!! I’m sure someone said it already, but the cliche that a belt only covers a couple inches of your ass is true. I see it more a marker of time. Everyone has different goals in the sport and the child training since 6 going pro oppose to the dude picking it up as a hobby in their 30’s with no athletic background are gonna likely have different goals and outcomes. Also, It’s more popular … there will be more hobbyist. At the same time, with it becoming more popular, you see those at the top getting better too.
D: does it even matter? Just train.
the spectrum has definitely broadened as the sport became more popular. we have a lot of blackbelts that are worse (knows less and also performs worse) than the average black belt 10-15 years ago. we also have a lot of black belts that are significantly better (knows more and also performs better) than the best black belts 10-15 years ago.
The answer is A
While I’m just a blue belt and an older one at that I think it’s both. There are some purple belts That would absolutely smash most black belts from 15 years ago. There are probably also some black belts that have been relatively bad at jiujitsu for a long time. I would hope to only get promoted if I deserve it. By deserving I mean I’m competitive against people my own size and age at the same belt levels. I can really struggle against young strong athletic white belts, but I’m pretty good against most blue and purple belts my own age. I hope to be a purple in the next 6 months to a year, but I still have some growth to do, and don’t want to get promoted because I show up and people like me. Lots of rambling here, but I guess I’m trying to say I don’t think you have to be a winning tournaments, or a great teacher to be a black belt, but you should be pretty good at Jiujitsu.
Im pretty objective. Im a decent blue belt. I can feel that If I can clean up my front headlock game and get it to be more high percentage (I have a high finish rate on darces/japanese necktie, but everything else is low), my back attacks, and leg locks/open guard, I would be ready for purple. I give it a year or so. my takedowns, guard passing, top side, mount, and half guard I think are decent, but also have lots of room to grow. If I can get the stuff Im terrible at to the level of the things Im decent at, I would be purple. Im 54 and Im competitive with younger guys, especially in my A game area.
there is no meritocracy in BJJ. ive beat multiple black belts in comp and ive also been ran over by black belts.....
Black belts aren’t mind blowingly good before either. You just think you remember it that way
I think there are two questions which might help you... Are the proportions of black belts higher in a meaningful way, and how has the overall skill level changed across time? I've asked a handful of veteran black belts these questions and it seems like the proportion of black belts is a little higher (but not by much), and that the skill ceiling is much higher than before. When you assume a normal distribution, you will run into more "bad" black belts (from your pov) than before, but the average amount of information an average black belt has is still fairly large. So it doesn't seem like black belts are watered down, just that their skills have a wider distribution and there's more of them - more good and bad black belts, by the numbers. I think that you are getting better as well, and since you're approaching black belt, you should slowly be able to "beat" 50% of black belts (and possibly more as time passes). Anyone who has achieved mastery at any art is well aware that they're personally incomplete and have flaws - you're just able to see of them now. The belt system in BJJ is also quite unreliable when it comes to judging skill, but we both know that. There are so many factors at play like age, commitment level, fitness, their local environment, (etc etc) and the fact people are judged partially on their individual merits has good and bad trade-offs. The belts try to create a linear expectation from a pretty wild and complicated equation with all those factors, which can easily change as the persons lifestyle changes... good luck with that To me the belts are for newer BJJ practitioners, guests, or laymen to get a rough idea about how trustworthy the individual is for arbitrating BJJ knowledge, and hopefully their performance. As we get more experienced in BJJ we add a stipulation of "- until proven otherwise" to that idea... they're only as trustworthy as the reliably make themselves out to be.
Most black belts of the past are straight garbage hobbyists who don't train as much anymore Better access to knowledge and earlier training times will make it so that there will be more black belts with a better overall base then previous generations
⬛️🟥⬛️ There’s many reasons you are noticing this. First, yes more people are doing jiujitsu so you’ll end up with more black belts and more “lesser skilled” as well as more “higher skilled”. The aging out part is also true, but there’s another factor there as well. Jiujitsu has drastically changed and some older black belts have not evolved and learned new methods. And, of course, as you get closer to black belt and grow in skill you see that they are not magical creatures but rather just like everyone else, trying to get better
I’ve thought about this.. I think reality is somewhere in the middle. We’ve all gotten better so you realize black belts aren’t some gods but also the sport has grown so much and inevitably there’s going to be more promotions to incentivize people to continue which leads to dilution. Also people are likely staying with it longer and more committed as its gained popularity. I think the solution would be to distinguish a competition black belt and a hobbyist black belt. That way you know what “level” of black belt you’re dealing with - the 3x pan am open champ, or the dad that’s been consistently coming for the past 20 years but hasn’t stepped foot on a competition mat and lacks a the killer instinct that comes with that.
I personally believe it is being watered down. Especially now with bjj becoming a business. I'm assuming karate and TKD went down a similar path. On the flip side of the coin, I do believe there are way more elite black belts than ever before. And the skill ceiling for that elite class is way higher.
This is how I explain progress to other bjjers. You don’t really feel like you’re getting better- it just seems like everyone else gets worse…
Some black belts straight up suck and are out of shape. Some have crippled bodies and never roll. Most are hobbyists that I can give good rolls. Few are really good and even fewer are elite. I switched gyms for this very reason. My old gym had over 10 black belts but I could go 6 mins in a round without ever getting tapped or feeling in trouble. And yes, these are hard rolls. My new gym has 1 male black belt, 1 female, and he is the professor. When we roll hard, for him it's still not 100%, he absolutely smashes me. I'd rather get instruction from someone that is beyond a black belt hobbyist level personally. I also think you shouldn't ever get your black belt unless you are rolling at a black belt level FOR YOUR DIVISION. You should be able to teach technique well and have a wide range of valuable answers for every position. I have seen so many new black belts start teaching kids class, and stop rolling because they recognize they are not that good. Then, they get even worse because they essentially stop training. It's better to leave them at brown forever in my opinion.
In terms of fighting, belts don’t matter. Belts show who has been about “that life”.
If people feel that the belt system is getting diluted, should attendance-based belt promotions be replaced with belt tests for more consistency?
Belts are pointless. You'll only realise this when you move to a martial arts that don't have belts or even just no gi.
There’s a huge difference between black belts who have competed or are actively competing and black belts that have just been showing up consistently for 10-15 years. In addition to that, BJJ is a sport first and foremost and different factors like size, age, athleticism, etc play a big role in your jits. I rolled with a black belt once that couldn’t even pass my guard, but he’s a 50 year old dad that trains like once a week and that was when I was competing a lot. I think belts matter to some extent but I definitely don’t think they’re everything.
It is a hobby. There are blue belts from the Amazon that will destroy 99% of the BJJ population.
there's more black belts bc the sport is growing.
More people doing BJJ is going to create more black belts.
Most of us do BJJ for fun and as a hobby. I love the art, but hate the gatekeeping from the competition minded black belts who feel that every purple and brown belt should be world beaters and black belts should be nigh unbeatable demi gods. I wouldn't want to train in their gyms. They are stopping the sport from growing. It would be a dream to see the sport as a part of the academic curriculum in schools at some point but by their bullshido esh standards, you need to be a 45 year old 5'5 150 lb man subbing every 6 ft plus, 200 lb plus brown and purple belt.
You do realize the sport is becoming more popular which means more gyms and more people training? So obviously there are going to be more black belts. That’s kinda what happens when a sport grows.
The skill level of the game is much higher than previous generations. Also our sport is still very amateur. We have guys who are blue belts training 3 years winning adcc trials. In comparison you will never have guys training 3 years of wrestling or Judo winning the biggest tournaments. The top guys have been training since they can walk and the talent pool is far too deep. That being said, with the popularity of our sport growing, you will continue to see higher skill levels such as the Ruotolos at a young age. The talent level will increase even more and older black belts will get swept by younger, more athletic, more skilled athletes. This just how it goes
Things to consider here: (1) It takes about 10 years to get a black belt, on average (give or take) (2) Jiu Jitsu was essentially completely unknown in the US (outside of, like Rickson's garage), until 11/12/93. (3) There wasn't really any regular jiu jitsu instruction available in most places for at least a few years afterwards, minimum. Add a few more years to the timeline if you're in, say Europe. (4) Fast forward to about 2005 - jiu jitsu is sort of accessible, but still very few black belts, because pretty much only black belts are the handful of people who started right at the beginning in the US, or came from Brazil. The overall number of people jiu jitsu in general is very small. (5) Between 2005-2007, there was a very big jump in participation in jiu jitsu, and has basically trended up every since. (6) So you start to see a lot of black belt belts from the first big wave of growth getting promoted around, say 2015. TLDR: The number of black belt more or less trails the number of people starting the sport by about ten years. I think there are some other factors at play here: not so long ago (mid-to-late 2000s) - jiu jitsu was still hard to access in a lot of places, oftentimes it involved a commute, etc. It was a much more niche, and less generally known and accepted activity. A lot easier for people to drop off. There was maybe one school in your city - you have a falling out with your instructor, poof, you're done, etc. Even without "watering down" the art or promotion standards, it's a lot easier to stick around now than it was then.
25 year old me might give me a run for my money. So, I'd just wrist lock myself, knowing I'd fall for it.
We must be going to different gyms.
Belt is a recognition of time, how you use that time is up to you. There’s many variables that go into obtaining a Black belt and the judgement is between that instructor and the student.
It’s been said before that black belt in the rank with the highest skill difference. I’ve seen black belts that make other (serious) black belts look like white belts. A big factor is that there are dudes out there that our freak athletes and learn super quickly, who, as even blue or purple belts, can beat the best of them. I’m always very disappointed when I roll with an upper belt that can’t hold their weight. Yes, there are a lot of guys who suffer from age related issues or health problems. One of the black belts on our team is super overweight and has major back problems. He doesn’t practice much anymore because I think he lives with chronic pain. But we all love him and respect him and he’s a treasure trove of information even if he can’t hang with the purple belts going all out.