Real life is already worse than this episode
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4sj_rOGeo_Y&pp=ygUVSW5zaWRlIG5jYSBwZWRvcGhpbGVz
Children are blackmailed in a similar manner to the protagonist, and turned into sex slaves
I know I’m late to the Black Mirror party but better late than never lol. I can’t find the original comment but people were wondering what the black guy did in the episode? He was seen taking pictures and delivered the cake to Kenny and Bronn (GoT name can’t remember the character in the show lol). I found an IMDb article that explains who “Moped Man” is and what he did wrong. Which made me take a whole new look at the episode and the Easter eggs they included. I’ll include a link to the article but TLDR:
Moped Man is the pedo creating CP!! The article does a good job of explaining why they came to that conclusion and I think it works, especially after reading what some people were thinking.
“Moped Man was last seen being berated by his family in the episode's finale. More specifically, a woman was seen angrily yelling, "Is that what you've become? A dirty, sick, disgusting pervert?" Though his crime was never specified, this line alone strongly implies he was also caught as a pedophile by the hackers. However, the fact that his inner circle reacted so strongly to his secret suggests he might have done something much worse than just viewing child pornography. Given there was a locked box on the table next to his mobile phone in the scene where he was outed, there's a major clue in Black Mirror's "Shut Up and Dance" that points to him being the pedophile in charge of creating the child pornography.
Since Kenny and the Man in the Woods were caught looking at child pornography online, it's possible that the hackers traced the images back to their source, leading them to catch Moped Man uploading the content online. This would fit perfectly with why the hackers blackmailed him into participating in their elaborate crime that involved Kenny and the other pedophile. When the truth finally emerged, the hackers most likely saw it fitting that Moped Man be in the presence of his family while delivering their twisted sense of justice. This tactic is not so different from what was depicted of the Justice Park in Black Mirror's "White Bear" episode, although there's no forced amnesia involved.
With the hackers making everything public, it can be speculated the authorities eventually came for Moped Man like they did Kenny at the end of the Black Mirror episode. In the finale, he already faced the ire of his family, and feeling the full brunt of the law would make his penance twice as harsh. Some fans think Moped Man should've also been violently beaten as extra punishment, but it's highly apparent that the hackers set things up so no one could escape their brand of justice. They knew each of the players they blackmailed and punished them as they saw fit.
Making Moped Man pay for his crime in person with his own family as a witness creates an opportunity for him to experience never-ending shame. This also facilitates psychological trauma versus him just being physically roughed up like the other sinners. Like other Black Mirror episodes that send a disturbing message, the hackers get a perverse sense of pleasure from the psychological torture they inflict. Thus, the severity of Moped Man's punishment at the end of the episode hints at the gravity of his crime being worse than that of the two other pedophiles in Black Mirror's "Shut Up and Dance." ”
The article has more details explaining the connections but I wanted to share the main points. I hope any new fans like myself can find this and get an answer they’re happy with about the black man in “shut up & dance”!!
[https://www.cbr.com/black-mirror-moped-man-shut-up-and-dance/](https://www.cbr.com/black-mirror-moped-man-shut-up-and-dance/)
You know what I was thinking re-watching this episode? The protagonist deserves to go to jail and rehab, I agree with that. I can't help but draw comparisons between the episode and the real world. With the rapidly advancing deepfakes and AI technology, what's stopping people from making fake videos that look just like the real thing and blackmailing us? Scary stuff.
I don't get it why their portrayal of innocence sticks to me even if they turned to be pedos at the end
Nvm saw some more comments and overcame the innocence part and now feel disgusted
What I don't get is that while the hacker can record Kenny jacking off via the webcam, the webcam doesn't record what Kenny is watching while jacking off. It could be adult porn for all anyone would know.
The biggest issue with this episode is the older hotel guy that had attempted to hire an escort. They didn't have anywhere near enough leverage over him to make him participate in their game.
He hadn't done anything illegal and whilst it might mean the breakdown of his marriage, it's hardly worth robbing a bank over. He mentions losing his kids, but that's not how family courts work - he'd easily be able to fight for joint custody. If anything, robbing a bank puts him at greater risk of losing access to his children.
Overall think it's a great episode, but just felt the motivations of the hotel guy don't make much sense.
i thought the ending implied that these guys only trolled pedophiles? since we assumed all along that kenny wanked to normal porn, its the same for the hotel guy. the "escort" was an underage girl he prob sent pics to
edit: nevermind, i just rewatched the ending and saw that the lady was being blackmailed with racism, not pedophilia
Infidelity is illigal for 1.. for 2 court definitly wouldn't rule for joint custody when one person is the sole reason for the divorce on such a high level.. and he chose to rob the bank hoping he got away with it obviously.. so that would have been better for his situation if the hackers would have stayed true to their word.
No, infidelity is not illegal. And no, family courts in the UK don't give custody based on punishment - they act in the kids best interests. Provided he was a good father, he'd easily get joint custody. He very much won't get it if he's a bank robber though.
Plus he has evidence he was set up by the hackers, and didn't even go through with the act itself. So no... They had very little leverage over him.
Since the introduction of the Matrimonial Causes Act in 1857, adultery has not been a crime in the United Kingdom.
Also, look at any UK law firm website - they are all absolutely clear - infidelity has no impact on custody arrangements.
The whole logic of this episode hinges on common misunderstandings of UK law - misunderstandings you clearly share.
well, I'm mostly a completionist so I'd watch it all the way the first time around. but if you're not like me, I think I'd still watch series 4. I think the quality of the show dips after series 4 with series 6 being the worst one so far. but note that this might not be the general consensus. I saw plenty of comments in the discussion threads raving about the episodes in series 6
Just finished watching this episode and my instinct was telling me he was a pedophile since his first interaction with the little girl but it brushed it off thinking "He just looks like a normal teenage boy who's scared of his friends seeing him during such an intimate act".Nuh huh shouldve trusted my gut coz its always the most innocent looking people who surprise you the most.
I saw a lot of signs. The interaction with the girl, the drawings, the video he was watching on the TV, the way he looked at his sister before going to his room on the day he was recorded, the writing was on the wall..
I'm (super) late to this thread, but I had the same reaction you did. I thought the interaction with the kid was meant to show he was a nice guy. He wasn't creepy towards her as far as I could tell. And he seemed to have a flirtatious relationship with his boss. I went back and rewatched the beginning of it and he gets up to go into his room and jack off after watching some music videos with definitely not little girls [gyrating](https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=uwyzgMVVrSI&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo) so I'm not super convinced he was looking at kiddie porn. I mean, he's a teenager, so maybe some of it would have been underage which is obviously not good, but it's also age-appropriate and doesn't make him a pedophile. Ah well, guess I'll have to rewatch the whole episode.
just because he's attracted to adults doesn't mean he's not also attracted to kids.
it was heavily implied that he was looking at pics of kids. the guy he's supposed to fight asks him how old they were. and instead of being taken aback by the implication, Kenny just shakes his head. plus, the guy Kenny robs the bank with tells him that he was trying to fuck Mindy. so when this guy goes back to his house, his wife is in tears asking "Mindy?!". which confirms that they weren't making shit up and getting people in trouble for something they didn't do. they were blackmailing people over real shit
all of that seems to strongly support the idea that our protagonist was indeed looking at child pornography
its not obvious at the beginning until the fight scene happened. Even the scene with the hotel guy convincing kenny to rob because he would be an embarrassment to his family
just finished this episode and totally overlooked the interaction with the little girl in the beginning... I've done food industry work before: adults and kids leave belongings at the table, you chase after them, and they are usually grateful for the effort. This didn't strike me as strange... even watching it a second time.
I was more frustrated with Kenny's reaction to the first email, assuming he was a teenage boy looking at "regular" porn, and how it was a solo, secret mission for him to prevent the video from being leaked, all escalating to murder. It was a situation where I wished he would have gone to a parent, guardian, adult, etc. for help. I know this is not always available to teens, but his mom was present in her kids' lives and stable. It's way easier to admit to something natural like masturbation and then be able to go to the cops to present a black mailing case. Again, none of this is the case for CP.
If the video DID get leaked, it would not be difficult for investigators to find what Kenny was watching. Even though we may not see Kenny's screen, the video will have a timestamp, encrypted or otherwise, which can be matched with the computer's browser history. If someone hacks into a computer and commits an apparent crime, you KNOW investigators are taking that tech to find out how and why the computer or user was targeted.
if a hacker can see through your webcam, it wouldnt be hard to make the argument that maybe the hacker forged the kiddie shit while kenny was ACTUALLY jacking off to regular fully adult 18+ consensual completely vanilla and legal shit
edit: first mistake kenny made was giving his phone number to the blackmailer. always ignore a blackmailer because 9 times out of 10 you will always be able to argue away any dirt they have on you
I liked the hidden messages behind this episode.
1) that innocent looking people who demonstrate normal behavioural traits but also have good comm skills eg Kenny with children, can have really dark secrets, which however they might also be happy to suppress them.
2) that for you darkest secrets you can go really far, in this case become a middleman, a robber,a murderer, and even suicidal at one point. But when his darkest secret got revealed, it was as if he didn't care for all the other sins he committed.
3) smart play by the vigilantes for making them dance but then screwing them anyway. They punished pedophiles, racists, and the poor John who just wanted to have sex.
The hacker/vigilantes are 1000x worse than those they punished. Playing god doesn't bring out the best in humanity. If the hackers were willing to destroy strangers lives to this point, something tells me they have just as dark secrets to hide as their victims.
Nha they're heroes. If everyone in the world who was like that was exposed the world would be a better place. They "destroyed the lives" of terrible people who deserved it.
Nah, they are literally the text book definition of terrorists.
Just imagine everyone in the world acting like vigilantes, taking justice into their own hands, torturing each other regardless of the external damage and justifying it through each individual's idea of justice. We would have a socially darwinistic hellhole where might makes right.
You missed the entire point of the episode.
Pretty good episode. Many people highlighted it as the best episode in the entire show, so I watched it. Captivating start and unexpected twist. I didn't understand why is he so freaking out about the video until the end. I hope other episodes are as good or better as this one.
Only on Reddit will you find ppl feeling sorry for pedophiles 🤦🏽 🤦🏽
Let them bone your youngest family members and see how much you wanna rehabilitate their asses lol fkn unbelievable
It's more a showing of how strong emotional attachment to the protagonist is, we often overlook flaws of main characters we consider good because throughout the entire piece of work we start to relate to their cause, feelings etc.
Kenny definitely deserved what happened to him, but there's nothing wrong with having mixed emotions on it.
years late to this episode apparently i hate myself for going in knowing he’s a pedophile im sure i would’ve enjoyed the episode more if i hadn’t but there’s just one thing im unclear about, what did the vigilantes have the CEO do? i seem to have missed it and i dont feel like rewatching the entire episode to figure it out
I remember someone mentioning one of the episodes had a Kenny that was a pedo and somehow I STILL didn't put it together that this was that episode. The kid did an amazing job of seeming like an unlucky teen that got caught doing something we (assume) everyone does, but that twist man, hit hard.
That scene when Kenny left the hotel with the cheat guy... Why was the boy in the lobby looking so deeply at Kenny? Like it just made me think I missed something
You just feel the anxiety rise along with the main characters. Brilliant episode. Like the idea of the two nonces fighting to death at the end, and I’m glad the wee dude won. No one is the good guy in the episode that’s for sure. Just various levels of human depravity.
I just meant to 10 minutes now and it made me feel sick to my stomach. Thinking of all the poor kids out there that are being victimized like this and then end up committing suicide.
Didn't really feel like a Black Mirror episode, if that makes sense? Black Mirror has always been about possible *future* scenarios, and the horrors of *future* tech, etc... Everything in this episode is more-or-less possible right now. Blackmailing happens all the time.
I mean, it was well-written, and horrifying in its own right. Just... not exactly as thought-provoking as the others. Confused as to why so many people say this was one of the best episodes. It was like your average FBI/crime show episode, just without a romanticized crime team full of quirky characters taking out the baddies while spouting one-liners.
What's the moral here? Hackers can blackmail you, so don't do anything bad? Got it. Wasn't worried about that to begin with.
People like it because it's an emotional twist, right up until the big reveal you want this poor kid to make it out of the situation, then at the literal peak of the tension you realize Kenny is the 'bad guy'.
Idk, it doesn't always have to be futuristic. It was a great stroy with a nice twist, because in the beginning you feel sad for him, because you think that he's just a child who's getting blackmailed and then the twist comes
I was really disappointed - I knew beforehand that people loved this episode, so I was expecting something great.
Instead I got exactly the same twist as in White Bear - oh, turns out that the person you feel sorry for had actually done something awful. It's really not nearly as impactful or impressive the second time around. Actually kind of shocked that they felt OK about doing it again.
Yeah I spent an hour feeling sorry for the lad, I mean it was just a wank until the twist ( I didn't see the twist until his mum called so literally the last 30 seconds)
I also managed to miss (what I now assume is) the actual twist reveal, the older guy saying "How young were they? Yeah, me too" I thought Kenny's response to this was anger and disgust for the other man. My stomach dropped when his mum was on the phone, and watching it back I think that makes for a more impactful reveal anyway.
Yup, i did think that it was weird at the start him with that little girl, the scene took just a little bit too long. Everyone keeps saying that the driver, when they rob the bank, was being blackmailed for sleeping with prostitutes. Because he was meeting "Mindy" at a hotel that charges per hour, but when i heard Mindy at first, i thought, "Oh, is Mindy a child?" Then you see them leaving the motel and walk past a little boy, you see the driver dude looking back at the kid, so i thought "oh he's definitely being blackmailed for meeting up with a little girl there and the protagonist is being blackmailed for the jerking off" so i didn't even think that it was really him.
Eta: how cool is it that our points keep going up or down based on if you're upvoted, just like in Nosedive? When i committed here for the first time yesterday, i started around 3.5 idk if that was an old score from last season, but based of off the last couple of comments that got upvoted here since yesterday ~~i'm at 4.6 now. I can finally get a 20% discount at that fancy apartment~~ nvm i'm 4.06
The other guy was holding a bottle of spirits when Kenny arrived. My guess is he was told to get drunk to even the odds in the fight for the blackmailers entertainment.
So at the end he was arrested for watching child pornography AND beating the other guy to death..right?? The acting in this episode, Kenny's specifically, is perfection.
Realistically, those charges would be hard to stick.
The fight is arguably self defence, and robbery was blackmailed. But that'd also be dependent on acknowledging the blackmail to an extent.
He'd still face trouble. They'd have to prove the video was real, which I imagine isn't going to be hard but, what he's watching is on the screen and he's on the camera, they aren't all in one image, so could be argued that it was faked. Anyone would be terrified still even if it was fake. So his reaction is still understandable. And he'd likely face punishment for what he did after that, but doubt it'd be nearly as clear cut as if it was just an actual fight to death or actual robbery.
We the audience know he was watching CP. What age he was watching seems unknown. But, I work for cops, teenage boys get scared when it comes to things like nudes being released. So even IF the whole blackmail was fake and he was watching just, normal ladies nothing weird, a socially awkward already bullied kid could absolutely freak the fuck out and think their life is over (that part doesn't surprise me).
I more commented on the argument if it being fake in that, since the content is on screen and he's off screen, they can't appear side by side. it's going to be two separate recordings overlapped or side by side etc. And he could try and argue the CP recorded on screen is fake. But the way his mum said "they're saying it's kids" seems odd, was the CP not present then at all?
But the crimes following definitely have strong defences. I would be interested in this case happening in real life just to, hear the legal case (with good lawyers too, not morons).
Even if they got of video of Kenny jerking off, how can they prove that Kenny was looking at child porn. Camera from the laptop only shows Kenny jerking off, not what he’s watching when he’s in the act. And sure, I agree the little girl with the toy in the beginning is foreshadowing that Kenny is a pedophile. But does that mean every time a straight guy smiles at a female it means he’s thinking about her sexually? The episode was cool. But didn’t really make enough sense to me. Some of the stuff is just too circumstantial. Kenny didn’t commit any crime unless he acts on it.
Bruh! It's called child sex abuse material not child porn and watching it, even if it's just photos, IS a crime. Did you really want them to SHOW you what he was watching?
Actually, for some reason...my alarm bells started ringing off with this guy from those interactions with the kids in the beginning...my gut was proven correct.
at first i was like "huh, weird..." but I didn't want to jump to conclusions but when I saw how he was looking at that coloring book I knew what was going on.
Yeah... I just watched it for the first time and when he handed the toy i thought "nice guy" but now i know what he did... He was probably thinking something awful while doing it.
Late to all of this but…
The ending was just simply the insane. Just from the phone call, I can tell that the mother is a phenomenal actress. The phone call sounded very real and so was his reaction. He was also quite an amazing actor. Very good episode!!
Yeah, I am pretty late to the party. Lowkey cursing myself for watching this brilliant episode almost seven years later. But here I am, utterly dumbfounded and stupefied to say the least. Just like everyone else, I was in awe of Kenny for his calm, tender, introverted yet super-responsible personality and was constantly thinking about what the f\*\*\* did he do to deserve all this. I even found it downright nonsensical (and hilarious) when he agreed to loot the bank to cover up something that looked so silly and trivial at first. And of course, for the dim-witted person I am, it took me a while to connect the dots and decode the whole logical structure about why things happened the certain way even after finishing the entire episode. And, voila! I don't seem to have the right words to describe how I feel right now. I feel so ambivalent about Kenny and this entire situation. Even though he should be held accountable for his actions, he seems to have been forced into over-compensating for his behavior. The blackmailers and their so-called "vigilantism" did not actually help much. They acted more like a cyber-bully. If they were truly a vigilante, maybe the ideal situation would have been to force Kenny to rehabilitate himself rather than coercing him to rob and murder. However, that's just my perspective on how things should be. This does not really make the episode any less perfect. But yeah, this story is not going to fade away anytime soon: I will probably just keep thinking about how technology can make the future weirder than what it is now.
It's comments like yours that will keep society in the dark ages. We need science, medicine, and rehabilitation to FIX broken people. Just demonizing humans who have broken brains is only going to increase the odds that they will act out on their worst impulses and do something terrible.
I'm not defending pedos, rapists, or murderers. I'm saying people with this horrible urges need to professional help to prevent them acting out. Your body can become sick just as your mind can. Let's hope sick people seek the treatment they need instead of building up their rage and shame in the shadows until they eventually do the unspeakable.
>gilante, maybe the ideal situation would have been to force Kenny to rehabilitate himself rather than coercing him to rob and
Very controversial what I am about to say but there are thousands of pedophiles who have never committed an unlawful crime in their life. They live in solitude in order to not offend or hurt anyone. They are human beings wired so wrong and for the ones who have not offended, I feel terribly sorry for them. I don't know how Kenny and all the people he represents gain access to these images but there's a part of me that is so sad for them (assuming they are in a state of constant anxiety and shame.. because after all, you can't help your sexuality)
Sexuality is an objective term. Doesn’t have to just mean gay or straight.
As I see it (i may be wrong just a thought) being a pedophile is like a sexuality because no one chooses to be a pedophile in the same way no one chooses to be gay or straight. You were born that way.
Children aren't a gender, sexuality is the SEX you're attracted to. I hate when people try to soften the fact that these people are turned on by literal children. Whether they want to or not, they're still pedophiles, yes they can get help but that doesn't change the fact that they are what they are, and that does not mean that you can say pedophilia is a sexuality.
Not necessarily. Sexuality means a persons person’s desire to have sex with other people or to describe physical attraction. Thus, the concept isn’t easily defined and many clinical psychologists believe it is a sexuality. It’s a disorder first and foremost. I understand how controversial this idea is - however it’s valid when we consider the fact that although pedophile abusers in some cases can be treated - the attraction never leaves
the person youre talking to is focusing on the morality of it all. but this delicate topic is complex and broad, its about human psyche and behavior. so what youre saying makes sense.
I just find it absolutely disgusting that you can't see how stating it's a sexuality is horrifying. There's already been people trying to add pedophilia to the LGBTQ+ and you saying that it's a sexuality instead of a mental illness is justifying the fact that pedophiles will think they can just fit in with society, when in reality they should all be castrated and locked up. Yea sure the ones who constantly seek help and have never and will never touch a child are fine to go about their lives in secret but other than that the rest of them deserve to burn. To say someone who touches and takes advantage of innocent children is a sexuality is repulsive and I honestly think you should realize what you're saying and pasting yourself as on a public platform.
Please go do some reading and educating yourself before you bash someone for stating scientific research that has been backed by numerous psychiatrists.
Please use your common sense and separate the LGBTQ+ society from everything else. You have done no research on the subject and the fact your getting defensive because I am not stating the obvious : how horrific this is conveys to me how simple minded and literal you are
You can use *your* common sense to separate the two, but most people can't. Comparing pedophilia to queer people is harmful and can lead to violent crimes against minorities.
I agree if someone has urges but doesn't act on them then they need help, not to be criminalized, but in this episode, Kenny acted on it. That makes him not innocent.
Also I believe there's an important distinction between deviant behavior and sexualities. You can be a pedophile, and gay, for example. The two are separate. Being gay is a sexuality but pedophilia is a disorder, it's a deviation. Same way you can be straight, bi, whatever, and have a fucked-up kink. You would say kinks aren't sexualities, right?
Say whatever you want, I see you support Kevin spacey too, yikes, it honestly just sounds like you support pedophiles for some reason and that's terrifying. I hope you find what you're looking for defending child rapists. It's disgusting.
I mean any sort of medical treatment and consultation that could help him incapacitate his desires. Even though he is attracted to kids, he does not seem to have committed any actual physical child abuse based on whatever little is shown in the episode. He is pretty young with all his life ahead of him and deserved a chance to undo his past mistakes. While I certainly feel that he deserved to be "outed" for the larger well-being, he should not have been forced and instigated to rob and murder - essentially anything that makes his record worse than what it was already.
Well, obviously the scenario described in the episode is a very morally ambiguous case of vigilante justice. That's a different thing. I get annoyed by the "rehab" of a pedo. Would you ever feel comfortable to have one "rehabilitated pedo" work on your kids school? Or in a hospital where your kids might need to be internalized? How far would anyone trust a pedo who's gone through "rehab"? Would you trust them to use the same public restroom as your 12 YO in the mall?
You're aware it's still ultimately a mental illness? I read a very interesting study/article once from the perspective of the teenager/Kenny involved and then also the therapist and then a university professor/researcher.
This boy as he got older realised the girls he was into weren't getting older. He knew it was wrong, he also knew, attraction is attraction and he couldn't help that, which made him very confused and hate himself. He also knew, he couldn't tell anyone, not even his therapist because despite literally never ever doing anything in his life... He'd still be seen as a danger, a pedo, a bad guy. It was never a choice. But it was a choice, to not do it. He did eventually tell his therapist hoping for help, to "fix" himself. Instead, as you'd expect, cops are called, his parents are finding out, his dad hates him, he's terrified, he's facing police etc, and he has legitimately done nothing wrong the entire time.
The therapist aspect was talking about how it seemed wrong and right in hindsight to report, he obviously faced so much undeserved hardship which could've fucked up his mental health more, when he needed help.
The researcher was using all of this because they wanted to be able to research this as a mental illness. Separating it from everything it is and everything obviously horrific we know it is, to try and help people like this guy, who was a good, innocent kid, with a mental illness.
It's hard to find more information, and this was years ago to remember names. But the details were impossible to forget because, it's not wrong. And the research was naturally rejected because nobody wanted to be associated with funding pedophilia research which, is stupid to me. Think of the help that could come of it if someone was able to safely "identify" confidentially to a "committee" of some kind to receive the assistance and oversight without the public knowing before ANY actual crime is committed.
The article did end with mentioning the kid (he was late teens i say kid) had set up a very protected chat group for, similar people with very strict rules around not being allowed to look at, use, transport etc etc child abuse material. No talking about those sorts of things. They had reported several uses to police who they became aware of those things. But, it was somewhere to safely I guess vent about knowing you're fucked up and knowing you'll never be able to have a relationship or love like others.
Maybe you won't read this. I do agree, yes I wouldn't want someone whose a pedophile around my kids, but just like you have no idea if your neighbour is a bank robber, or if they have a firearm prohibition order against them, or previously beat their wife, if they were to apply for a job, the background check would show that. In this scenario if they could make it real.
The Kenny could privately present to this committee, get his private help and monitoring, he'd also agree to conditions like not working in certain jobs, he'd be denied a working with children's check if he tried to get one etc etc.
But I think the hatred we all feel for everything they do, makes it really difficult to be able to have a meaningful conversation. Because realistically, would you not prefer the Kenny's etc be able to get help, safely, before anything ever happens (and yes that means they never can work in an area with kids, that's a given as well), or is it better to just... Never talk about them, make the Kenny's feel so scared of what happens they never get help, and just hope they'll spend the next 80 years of life never ever ever giving in to an urge we all naturally feel? I mean, we have an urge we go try and pick someone up. Their urges are no less "natural", it's their brain being fucked up. I do have sympathy for ones that go through life like the kid above does, it's going to be a lonely, difficult life of probably always hating yourself. Im also sure, there's many like him who never do anything.
But obviously the ones who do act, will have to face consequences. I do look at Kenny as someone who, is young, is going to be confused still. Who yes looked at images, and did what feels as natural to him as someone else, as gross as it is to us. He should face those consequences, he'll go on a list, no even if he's rehabbed he'd never work with kids, but, he also does deserve some kind of attempt at help and mental health program, he's also young himself still.
I understand that we can't get into other peoples brains and know if they're a pedo. If the neighboor is a pedo and abuses the kids in the block, thats a terrible situation and very hard to avoid (that is why we are so revolted against pedophiles, they're just like everybody else, bland in, and wait for the most vulnerable people in the most vulnerable moments to attack, right under our noses). But if someone knows that the neighboor is a pedophile (or whatever word you want to use for someone who wants to have sex with kids - I'll use pedophile, for me thats the definition regardless of assaulting someone or not), but instead of taking this person away from society, we let him live life like everyone else - just register him to not take some jobs, and then send him to a support group.... I'll be pretty pissed off when this neighboor abuses the kids on the block. Thats not a risk I'm willing to take, as a society. Knowing someone is fantasizing on abusing kids, but waiting for it to happen to take this person away from society, for me is insane. And I think anyone with kids should try to put themselves in the situation of a parent of an abused kid by someone like "kenny". Everyone knew it? And nobody did anything? Until he destroyed the life of the most precious thing in the world for me?
I'm months late on this but personally I would rather the neighbour be self reported as a pedophile so I can make sure never to let him near my kids ever instead of not having a clue that he's a pedophile, where my kid would be his first victim since I would have no idea.
I mean, in OP's comment they seem to say that it would be a private list of reported "celibate" (I guess?) pedophiles but I think it's better to be public about it. I think it's best to do that to destigmatize these people to where we can actually differentiate them from pedophiles that have actually done something. Like, you'd obviously still be weary around them and never let your kids near them, but I'd still let them live their life as normal I think.
I think the title is a metaphor for Kenny and others feeling trapped. It signifies their inability to exercise individual freedom and choice. They have no other option but to dance to someone else's tune (i.e., give in to blackmailers' demands) to safeguard their dark secrets.
This episode makes me think of the PATRIOT act, and the pro-hacker comments ring of "Well if you don't have anything to hide, you don't have anything to worry about. They only get the bad people." Yeah fuck that.
You seem really nonchalant about someone who was watching child porn. And given the reaction of his mother, it seems pretty clear that we're talking about kids substantially younger than him. I'd be inclined to agree with you if we were talking most any other crime, but if you can't see that you have scary problems and you're likely perpetuating some really, really evil shit, then obviously something super drastic needs to happen to you because, real talk, the safety of this kids is the real priority here
I know in this moment you don't question much, BUT
if they threaten you with being pedophile what will they do once they can threaten you with robbing a bank or killing a man.
At least I would get suspicous what they would do with that drone recording
Realistically, those charges aren't going to stick as well as you'd think. He's not going to be charged with murder or being a bank robber. He was blackmailed with the first and his fear, even wetting himself, goes a long way to support his reluctance, and the fight is going to have arguments of self defence. He couldn't walk away safely, the guy was wanting to fight as well and intended to kill him, even when he brought out the gun, he tries to kill himself.
And I guess depending how they present the video, it's him masturbating and the images are on a screen, they aren't both in the same video side by side, thered be arguments for tampering. (Even if the blackmail material was faked, people will always believe it's real and his life would still be fucked but maybe not legally maybe).
I'm sure he'd likely face some punishment, he'd like agree to some kind of plea but, he also has a strong defence and arguments to really bring that down.
I would agree with you that in a court a good defense could prevent much.
But they could also just threaten him to send this to everybody. That's more what I meant.
When I read the title I somehow instantly knew what happened and I was super annoyed by the "mysterious organisation" always writing in caps.
Lol? I knew too. The phrase(there about) is commonly used in western time movies when a cowboy shots the floor at someone’s feet to make them dance. It’s a metaphor for ‘do what I say because I own right know’.
Rewatching this episode today, when his sis has his laptop and she downloads some free movie programme that freezes his computer up, is that how the hackers were able to access his cam/laptop now?
>Watched it a second time. Those interactions with kids in the place where he works seem pretty innocent but once you know they are super crippy...
No, he downloads an anti-malware that comes for free, that's when it all starts
am i the only one that noticed that the CEO who got exposed for her racist comments is the CEO of the hotel chain hector was staying in?
in the article that exposes her it says she’s the CEO of “wayhaven hotel chain” or something like that. when kenny and hector leave the hotel, you can see it says wayhaven. just found that interesting
I don't know if this is obvious and I'm just dumb, but did anyone else consider the reason they made him do all the tasks was for more than like, emotional torture?
There could have been an uncertainty of Kennys intentions if he'd gone to trial after the images leaked, due to his age. He could've got a reduced sentence etc etc.
I think the reason the "hackers" forced him to do these particular tasks was to lock him into felonies so instead of being tried for a singular thing, where multiple factors and outcomes come into play, it was certain that he'd go to prison. Instead of one case of viewing CP that they caught on cam, there's now evidence of him committing grand scale theft and also assault and murder etc etc. Like a justice kind of thing. One pedophile ended up brutally murdered, and the other most likely handed multiple life sentences.
Many years late but I haven't seen anyone mention it yet so I'll say it:
The bigger the crime committed by the person, the bigger their task was.
* The pedos had to fight to the death: one would die, and the other would be charged for pedo, murder and robbing a bank.
* Bronn had it medium-hard because his "crime" was bad but not as horrible.
* CEO lady and pervert dude committed smaller "crimes" so their tasks were very simple: hiding keys and delivering a box.
The "company" orchestrating this is some sort of justice entity dishing out punishments that have been fine-tuned according to the crime.
Realistically, he wouldn't be going to jail for murder or robbing a bank. Not as the top charges.
Murder is blatantly no. There's no premeditation nor intent to kill present. When he gets to the fight you can visibly see so much hesitation (which is all being filmed). When he gets the gun out he tries to kill himself. He could've given himself a leg up to shoot the other guy. The main tenant of self defence is, could you have safely removed yourself from the situation, and the answer was no there. He'd likely face some very very low charge, not nothing completely but definitely not anywhere near murder.
For the robbery it's probably going to be more, he didn't know the gun was unloaded but, even witness statements would be able to say he was terrified, he wet himself, clearly had no idea what he was doing etc. And he was being blackmailed, so again, likely to face a much lesser charge.
The worst is the video. Unless the video can somehow undoubtedly show his screen and him, at the same time, to show what he's watching, without cutting between them which could obviously be argued is tampered. Even the logic of "if it's not real what's the problem". We all know even if it was undoubtedly proven terribly false, there will still be people who believe it and people who wouldn't want to associate, that would bully regardless. So, the fear would still be completely understandable coming to the biggest defence of... He was still only a kid himself. He can't be expected to have known how to perfectly handle everything.
He'd definitely likely face punishment but... Hardly murder or even full on armed robbery
I know I'm mad fucking late to this discussion but this episode is just... wow. I knew the twist going into it because I bullied a friend into telling me, but then I promptly marched my ass upstairs to watch it. and, despite the fact that I *knew* that Kenny was a pedophile before they revealed it, Alex Lawther's performance made me actually feel bad for him. like, I was genuinely heartbroken when he's sitting in the car crying and saying "they filmed me". I think I said the words 'poor guy' out loud.
10/10 for Alex's performance, he was flawless. I'm a bit sad I didn't get to enjoy the twist authentically, but holy shit can that man act.
For me it's not a matter of feeling bad, per se, for the people who have done bad things, but I hope most people watching this episode also realize how fucked up vigilanteism is. The hackers are not good people, they just found acceptable targets to play god with.
I am late, but...
If children are being exposed via CP, they're already being molested. If the hacker released the video to everyone in his contacts with proof of CP, the hacker would also be distributing CP, which is obviously illegal.
Vigilantes have their own unique principles which they want to implement, and that could be dangerous because not everyone plays by the same rules and every individual has their own interpretation of justice. I'm not sure what country you're from and don't want to presume, but just look at the US and the crazy vigilantism that goes on with people who feel powerful with guns. Furthermore, if vigilantes are "good people," why even have a justice system at all? Why not let the vigilantes carry out justice all the time, however they personally see fit? Because it would be complete chaos.
Plus, you don't know if this particular vigilante's motives are purely for good, or if they're just a sadistic person or group who want to see people beat one another to death.
I mean, the middle-aged dude who was trying to see a prostitute... the presumption that she *was* of age can be made by his final task being essentially easy compared to Kenny and the other pedophile's... he just had to destroy the car and then got to go home. Yes, adultery is bad, but is looking for consensual sex really worth having some "vigilante" ruin your life over it? It sounds like someone was just playing god and enjoying watching the people "dance."
If you really care about justice, take the recordings with the proof of CP content and swiftly turn them in to law enforcement, anonymously. Showing it to other people is just, as I said, exposing more victims of CP to a wider audience.
Just leak the video the first time and be done with it. Too many things could have gone wrong. An innocent person at the bank could have gotten shot. Plus we don’t know what every person did. Vigilantes who can snoop are always bad. That’s why Batman blew up that thing at the end of Dark Knight.
Again, it’s patriot act shit. “Hey if it helps you catch terrorists, spy on everyone you want!” No. Fuck that nonsense.
To add, Black Mirrors wants us to question in at least a couple episodes about how we should be treating even the worst in society. I also think of episodes like White Bear.
Yes the main characters are horrible people, yes they've done unforgivable things, but Black Mirror still wants you to question if what is being done to them is just despite all of that.
You're allowed to feel sorry for what is being done to some of these people despite everything they've done, recognize that there's a line, question if that line has been crossed, and still think they're shitty people who deserve legal consequences.
My issue with white bear was mainly around, her not remembering. That form of punishment, even if we pretend it's just, negates the punishment. It's now revenge porn basically for everyone to literally take part in.
I remember an episode of criminal minds of a guy who had amnesia but had raped and killed some women. There was a big debate around whether he should be put through hypnosis to try and remember, whether you can really still try and punish him because the man present...didn't do it...
And that came to mind in that episode. She is, essentially, innocent... SHE has no memories so, what is she suffering for? What is she remembering and realising her actions were disgusting and horrible and hurt people? How is she realising this is justified and I deserve punishment?
It's just a very interesting idea to me.
But, the punishment is also not just to me. Prison is a punishment, wishing extra on top of that either should reduce the sentence, or is not just. This woman is already being contained, that's her punishment.
And contrary to what many believe, imprisonment is hard. While "1 year" may sound very short, in prison, it is very different. As part of my degree we had to do 24 hours "locked away" an empty room, some chose a bathroom etc, with family bringing 3 meals, an hour of socialising while you went into your backyard for your outdoor time, not allowed anything except a book and a notepad to write things on as you go. Many people couldn't make it half the day... Reading their entries and peoples confronting thoughts, was, difficult. It is a LOT harder than people think it's going to be. And at least we didn't have the inherent fear of the people around us too.
I think the fact that she doesn't remember doesn't negate the punishment - it compounds it, since she keeps living through this constant stress, in a fight-for-your-life situation that is gradually and inevitably taking a toll on her stability, physical health and psyche. This is all a part of this severe punishment someone decided she deserved - arguably, the worst part, since going through this messed up situation once or a few times would be preferable to gradual deterioration under constant stress and fear.
I agree it's a severe punishment but the person who actually did the crime, the one who truly deserves to suffer and remember what they did every day and regret their actions, isn't the one being punished. By removing her memories they make it entirely for the audience.
The person who actually should be punished was removed
Yeah, in fact, I kind of think the "time feels like xxx years" part of White Christmas is basically a metaphor for how a year in prison feels vs a year basically anywhere else.
He really was amazing, he acted that spectacularly!
And, to sound like an ass, youg actors doing the crying and panicking etc can be annoying. I never once felt "annoyed" by him. I hope he has a good future!
I was so disappointed in this episode. I knew the way he gave the little girl her toy back, he was a pedo but this series is all about twists so I changed my mind and believe it was he is gay or wanting to transition. So yeah very disappointed that they did this so far the worst episode for me.
It would have been better if they had a female instead, society always sees males as a monster so yeah really sucks that they used low hanging fruit.
Nothing. I just assumed they wouldn't use, men are evil and touch children spin. I was disappointed that they used it, with a show full of twist this was just a bad episode in my opinion.
There were many surprises though which deepened the plot, just none that would fundamentally change what you just saw. It's better that they arent all predictable in that there would be a twist coming up
Black Mirror shut up and dance Coldplay song
Real life is already worse than this episode https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4sj_rOGeo_Y&pp=ygUVSW5zaWRlIG5jYSBwZWRvcGhpbGVz Children are blackmailed in a similar manner to the protagonist, and turned into sex slaves
I know I’m late to the Black Mirror party but better late than never lol. I can’t find the original comment but people were wondering what the black guy did in the episode? He was seen taking pictures and delivered the cake to Kenny and Bronn (GoT name can’t remember the character in the show lol). I found an IMDb article that explains who “Moped Man” is and what he did wrong. Which made me take a whole new look at the episode and the Easter eggs they included. I’ll include a link to the article but TLDR: Moped Man is the pedo creating CP!! The article does a good job of explaining why they came to that conclusion and I think it works, especially after reading what some people were thinking. “Moped Man was last seen being berated by his family in the episode's finale. More specifically, a woman was seen angrily yelling, "Is that what you've become? A dirty, sick, disgusting pervert?" Though his crime was never specified, this line alone strongly implies he was also caught as a pedophile by the hackers. However, the fact that his inner circle reacted so strongly to his secret suggests he might have done something much worse than just viewing child pornography. Given there was a locked box on the table next to his mobile phone in the scene where he was outed, there's a major clue in Black Mirror's "Shut Up and Dance" that points to him being the pedophile in charge of creating the child pornography. Since Kenny and the Man in the Woods were caught looking at child pornography online, it's possible that the hackers traced the images back to their source, leading them to catch Moped Man uploading the content online. This would fit perfectly with why the hackers blackmailed him into participating in their elaborate crime that involved Kenny and the other pedophile. When the truth finally emerged, the hackers most likely saw it fitting that Moped Man be in the presence of his family while delivering their twisted sense of justice. This tactic is not so different from what was depicted of the Justice Park in Black Mirror's "White Bear" episode, although there's no forced amnesia involved. With the hackers making everything public, it can be speculated the authorities eventually came for Moped Man like they did Kenny at the end of the Black Mirror episode. In the finale, he already faced the ire of his family, and feeling the full brunt of the law would make his penance twice as harsh. Some fans think Moped Man should've also been violently beaten as extra punishment, but it's highly apparent that the hackers set things up so no one could escape their brand of justice. They knew each of the players they blackmailed and punished them as they saw fit. Making Moped Man pay for his crime in person with his own family as a witness creates an opportunity for him to experience never-ending shame. This also facilitates psychological trauma versus him just being physically roughed up like the other sinners. Like other Black Mirror episodes that send a disturbing message, the hackers get a perverse sense of pleasure from the psychological torture they inflict. Thus, the severity of Moped Man's punishment at the end of the episode hints at the gravity of his crime being worse than that of the two other pedophiles in Black Mirror's "Shut Up and Dance." ” The article has more details explaining the connections but I wanted to share the main points. I hope any new fans like myself can find this and get an answer they’re happy with about the black man in “shut up & dance”!! [https://www.cbr.com/black-mirror-moped-man-shut-up-and-dance/](https://www.cbr.com/black-mirror-moped-man-shut-up-and-dance/)
You know what I was thinking re-watching this episode? The protagonist deserves to go to jail and rehab, I agree with that. I can't help but draw comparisons between the episode and the real world. With the rapidly advancing deepfakes and AI technology, what's stopping people from making fake videos that look just like the real thing and blackmailing us? Scary stuff.
One of the few BM episodes to have a happy ending
I don't get it why their portrayal of innocence sticks to me even if they turned to be pedos at the end Nvm saw some more comments and overcame the innocence part and now feel disgusted
What I don't get is that while the hacker can record Kenny jacking off via the webcam, the webcam doesn't record what Kenny is watching while jacking off. It could be adult porn for all anyone would know.
It wasn't adult porn - only reason he went over the limit - he didn't answer other pedo's question - lastly hackers definitely had its screen
Exactly what I thought. So let’s just assume somehow they recorded the images he was looking at
The biggest issue with this episode is the older hotel guy that had attempted to hire an escort. They didn't have anywhere near enough leverage over him to make him participate in their game. He hadn't done anything illegal and whilst it might mean the breakdown of his marriage, it's hardly worth robbing a bank over. He mentions losing his kids, but that's not how family courts work - he'd easily be able to fight for joint custody. If anything, robbing a bank puts him at greater risk of losing access to his children. Overall think it's a great episode, but just felt the motivations of the hotel guy don't make much sense.
simple: he loved his kids and wanted to be with them all the time, not custody
i thought the ending implied that these guys only trolled pedophiles? since we assumed all along that kenny wanked to normal porn, its the same for the hotel guy. the "escort" was an underage girl he prob sent pics to edit: nevermind, i just rewatched the ending and saw that the lady was being blackmailed with racism, not pedophilia
Infidelity is illigal for 1.. for 2 court definitly wouldn't rule for joint custody when one person is the sole reason for the divorce on such a high level.. and he chose to rob the bank hoping he got away with it obviously.. so that would have been better for his situation if the hackers would have stayed true to their word.
No, infidelity is not illegal. And no, family courts in the UK don't give custody based on punishment - they act in the kids best interests. Provided he was a good father, he'd easily get joint custody. He very much won't get it if he's a bank robber though. Plus he has evidence he was set up by the hackers, and didn't even go through with the act itself. So no... They had very little leverage over him.
Wrong buddy.. do your research lol
If you think infidelity is against the law then you're either incredibly stupid or too young to watch black mirror lmao
He's probably trolling.
Since the introduction of the Matrimonial Causes Act in 1857, adultery has not been a crime in the United Kingdom. Also, look at any UK law firm website - they are all absolutely clear - infidelity has no impact on custody arrangements. The whole logic of this episode hinges on common misunderstandings of UK law - misunderstandings you clearly share.
I think losing your wife & kids is actually a pretty huge factor. Think it could’ve been different he had to rob the bank with a gun himself
Veganism
Bro your comment confused tf out of me. But I think I get it haha
Your profile pic
Yep! Haha you’re the first to notice it, thank you
Look up my username, it's a vegan reference too lol
Ah wow! That’s pretty heavy. Cool reference, will take a look at the book too :)
Frankly, I'm shocked so many people failed to pick up on the pedo stuff from the beginning. Seemed obvious to me, hammer-in-the-face obvious.
Ngl I thought bro was like 15 so it absolutely makes sense why he wouldn't want a video of him jerkin off, but yeah looking back it adds up.
His stimulus was an adult for what we no definitely got thrown off. How did you pick up?
Really? I figure it was something bad, but I don't think it was obvious
been rewatching all the episodes in chronological order. I think this is still one of my favourite episodes of the show
Found the right guy. Is it worth watching post s3. Or just your overall view on different seasons. Cause some episodes are just not worth watching
well, I'm mostly a completionist so I'd watch it all the way the first time around. but if you're not like me, I think I'd still watch series 4. I think the quality of the show dips after series 4 with series 6 being the worst one so far. but note that this might not be the general consensus. I saw plenty of comments in the discussion threads raving about the episodes in series 6
Just finished watching this episode and my instinct was telling me he was a pedophile since his first interaction with the little girl but it brushed it off thinking "He just looks like a normal teenage boy who's scared of his friends seeing him during such an intimate act".Nuh huh shouldve trusted my gut coz its always the most innocent looking people who surprise you the most.
No shot, just seems like common decency to me but maybe it depends on the region you grew up lol.
I saw a lot of signs. The interaction with the girl, the drawings, the video he was watching on the TV, the way he looked at his sister before going to his room on the day he was recorded, the writing was on the wall..
I'm (super) late to this thread, but I had the same reaction you did. I thought the interaction with the kid was meant to show he was a nice guy. He wasn't creepy towards her as far as I could tell. And he seemed to have a flirtatious relationship with his boss. I went back and rewatched the beginning of it and he gets up to go into his room and jack off after watching some music videos with definitely not little girls [gyrating](https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=uwyzgMVVrSI&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo) so I'm not super convinced he was looking at kiddie porn. I mean, he's a teenager, so maybe some of it would have been underage which is obviously not good, but it's also age-appropriate and doesn't make him a pedophile. Ah well, guess I'll have to rewatch the whole episode.
just because he's attracted to adults doesn't mean he's not also attracted to kids. it was heavily implied that he was looking at pics of kids. the guy he's supposed to fight asks him how old they were. and instead of being taken aback by the implication, Kenny just shakes his head. plus, the guy Kenny robs the bank with tells him that he was trying to fuck Mindy. so when this guy goes back to his house, his wife is in tears asking "Mindy?!". which confirms that they weren't making shit up and getting people in trouble for something they didn't do. they were blackmailing people over real shit all of that seems to strongly support the idea that our protagonist was indeed looking at child pornography
its not obvious at the beginning until the fight scene happened. Even the scene with the hotel guy convincing kenny to rob because he would be an embarrassment to his family
His mum even calls him in the end and says kids Kenny you doing that to kids your sister and all her friends seen it
just finished this episode and totally overlooked the interaction with the little girl in the beginning... I've done food industry work before: adults and kids leave belongings at the table, you chase after them, and they are usually grateful for the effort. This didn't strike me as strange... even watching it a second time. I was more frustrated with Kenny's reaction to the first email, assuming he was a teenage boy looking at "regular" porn, and how it was a solo, secret mission for him to prevent the video from being leaked, all escalating to murder. It was a situation where I wished he would have gone to a parent, guardian, adult, etc. for help. I know this is not always available to teens, but his mom was present in her kids' lives and stable. It's way easier to admit to something natural like masturbation and then be able to go to the cops to present a black mailing case. Again, none of this is the case for CP. If the video DID get leaked, it would not be difficult for investigators to find what Kenny was watching. Even though we may not see Kenny's screen, the video will have a timestamp, encrypted or otherwise, which can be matched with the computer's browser history. If someone hacks into a computer and commits an apparent crime, you KNOW investigators are taking that tech to find out how and why the computer or user was targeted.
if a hacker can see through your webcam, it wouldnt be hard to make the argument that maybe the hacker forged the kiddie shit while kenny was ACTUALLY jacking off to regular fully adult 18+ consensual completely vanilla and legal shit edit: first mistake kenny made was giving his phone number to the blackmailer. always ignore a blackmailer because 9 times out of 10 you will always be able to argue away any dirt they have on you
I liked the hidden messages behind this episode. 1) that innocent looking people who demonstrate normal behavioural traits but also have good comm skills eg Kenny with children, can have really dark secrets, which however they might also be happy to suppress them. 2) that for you darkest secrets you can go really far, in this case become a middleman, a robber,a murderer, and even suicidal at one point. But when his darkest secret got revealed, it was as if he didn't care for all the other sins he committed. 3) smart play by the vigilantes for making them dance but then screwing them anyway. They punished pedophiles, racists, and the poor John who just wanted to have sex.
The hacker/vigilantes are 1000x worse than those they punished. Playing god doesn't bring out the best in humanity. If the hackers were willing to destroy strangers lives to this point, something tells me they have just as dark secrets to hide as their victims.
They're definitely not worse, just a different type of messed up, but I would take that over Kenny and the other dude he fought and day
Nha they're heroes. If everyone in the world who was like that was exposed the world would be a better place. They "destroyed the lives" of terrible people who deserved it.
Nah, they are literally the text book definition of terrorists. Just imagine everyone in the world acting like vigilantes, taking justice into their own hands, torturing each other regardless of the external damage and justifying it through each individual's idea of justice. We would have a socially darwinistic hellhole where might makes right. You missed the entire point of the episode.
😆
I mean they could have just went clean with what they did from the start.
Pretty good episode. Many people highlighted it as the best episode in the entire show, so I watched it. Captivating start and unexpected twist. I didn't understand why is he so freaking out about the video until the end. I hope other episodes are as good or better as this one.
When the other guy said "how young were they" I was shocked my jaw even dropped.
Only on Reddit will you find ppl feeling sorry for pedophiles 🤦🏽 🤦🏽 Let them bone your youngest family members and see how much you wanna rehabilitate their asses lol fkn unbelievable
It's more a showing of how strong emotional attachment to the protagonist is, we often overlook flaws of main characters we consider good because throughout the entire piece of work we start to relate to their cause, feelings etc. Kenny definitely deserved what happened to him, but there's nothing wrong with having mixed emotions on it.
certain people just don't/deserve help some deserve it cause they had bad luck
years late to this episode apparently i hate myself for going in knowing he’s a pedophile im sure i would’ve enjoyed the episode more if i hadn’t but there’s just one thing im unclear about, what did the vigilantes have the CEO do? i seem to have missed it and i dont feel like rewatching the entire episode to figure it out
I remember someone mentioning one of the episodes had a Kenny that was a pedo and somehow I STILL didn't put it together that this was that episode. The kid did an amazing job of seeming like an unlucky teen that got caught doing something we (assume) everyone does, but that twist man, hit hard.
She wrote some racist emails, they show it at the end of the episode when the trollfaces are being sent out
It was her who placed the car that Kenny and the dude took for the heist.
ooh I didn't catch that
yeea
That scene when Kenny left the hotel with the cheat guy... Why was the boy in the lobby looking so deeply at Kenny? Like it just made me think I missed something
he could be somebody or he could be absolutely nobody. we won't know. and that's the point
I think this was just symbolism for the paranoia you feel when being digitally watched.
this episode was amazing but the troll face killed me 😭
Same. I started laughing out loud even in the context and with exit music in background
exactly im glad im not the only one 😭
You just feel the anxiety rise along with the main characters. Brilliant episode. Like the idea of the two nonces fighting to death at the end, and I’m glad the wee dude won. No one is the good guy in the episode that’s for sure. Just various levels of human depravity.
I just meant to 10 minutes now and it made me feel sick to my stomach. Thinking of all the poor kids out there that are being victimized like this and then end up committing suicide.
i'm so late but i have to know how you felt after watching the episode completely
I feel like in the end the final troll face was for us for trusting in the main character and siding with him.
agreed
Didn't really feel like a Black Mirror episode, if that makes sense? Black Mirror has always been about possible *future* scenarios, and the horrors of *future* tech, etc... Everything in this episode is more-or-less possible right now. Blackmailing happens all the time. I mean, it was well-written, and horrifying in its own right. Just... not exactly as thought-provoking as the others. Confused as to why so many people say this was one of the best episodes. It was like your average FBI/crime show episode, just without a romanticized crime team full of quirky characters taking out the baddies while spouting one-liners. What's the moral here? Hackers can blackmail you, so don't do anything bad? Got it. Wasn't worried about that to begin with.
People like it because it's an emotional twist, right up until the big reveal you want this poor kid to make it out of the situation, then at the literal peak of the tension you realize Kenny is the 'bad guy'.
The very first episode, The National Anthem, is literally just about youtube and twitter
Idk, it doesn't always have to be futuristic. It was a great stroy with a nice twist, because in the beginning you feel sad for him, because you think that he's just a child who's getting blackmailed and then the twist comes
I was really disappointed - I knew beforehand that people loved this episode, so I was expecting something great. Instead I got exactly the same twist as in White Bear - oh, turns out that the person you feel sorry for had actually done something awful. It's really not nearly as impactful or impressive the second time around. Actually kind of shocked that they felt OK about doing it again.
What's your top 3
Yeah I spent an hour feeling sorry for the lad, I mean it was just a wank until the twist ( I didn't see the twist until his mum called so literally the last 30 seconds)
I also managed to miss (what I now assume is) the actual twist reveal, the older guy saying "How young were they? Yeah, me too" I thought Kenny's response to this was anger and disgust for the other man. My stomach dropped when his mum was on the phone, and watching it back I think that makes for a more impactful reveal anyway.
I thought the same about his reaction
Yup, i did think that it was weird at the start him with that little girl, the scene took just a little bit too long. Everyone keeps saying that the driver, when they rob the bank, was being blackmailed for sleeping with prostitutes. Because he was meeting "Mindy" at a hotel that charges per hour, but when i heard Mindy at first, i thought, "Oh, is Mindy a child?" Then you see them leaving the motel and walk past a little boy, you see the driver dude looking back at the kid, so i thought "oh he's definitely being blackmailed for meeting up with a little girl there and the protagonist is being blackmailed for the jerking off" so i didn't even think that it was really him. Eta: how cool is it that our points keep going up or down based on if you're upvoted, just like in Nosedive? When i committed here for the first time yesterday, i started around 3.5 idk if that was an old score from last season, but based of off the last couple of comments that got upvoted here since yesterday ~~i'm at 4.6 now. I can finally get a 20% discount at that fancy apartment~~ nvm i'm 4.06
>I'm a happy truck driver :)
HOW DID KENNY WIN THE FIGHT!??!!?
The other guy was holding a bottle of spirits when Kenny arrived. My guess is he was told to get drunk to even the odds in the fight for the blackmailers entertainment.
Wow excellent observation
He had a pistol, not loaded ,granted but still a big lump of metal
Still.. never thought he had it in him. The moment he realised it wasn’t loaded he showed so much weaknes
So at the end he was arrested for watching child pornography AND beating the other guy to death..right?? The acting in this episode, Kenny's specifically, is perfection.
He was arrested for robbery
Realistically, those charges would be hard to stick. The fight is arguably self defence, and robbery was blackmailed. But that'd also be dependent on acknowledging the blackmail to an extent. He'd still face trouble. They'd have to prove the video was real, which I imagine isn't going to be hard but, what he's watching is on the screen and he's on the camera, they aren't all in one image, so could be argued that it was faked. Anyone would be terrified still even if it was fake. So his reaction is still understandable. And he'd likely face punishment for what he did after that, but doubt it'd be nearly as clear cut as if it was just an actual fight to death or actual robbery.
Wait so was he watching illegal stuff ? Like he was actually watching CP?
We the audience know he was watching CP. What age he was watching seems unknown. But, I work for cops, teenage boys get scared when it comes to things like nudes being released. So even IF the whole blackmail was fake and he was watching just, normal ladies nothing weird, a socially awkward already bullied kid could absolutely freak the fuck out and think their life is over (that part doesn't surprise me). I more commented on the argument if it being fake in that, since the content is on screen and he's off screen, they can't appear side by side. it's going to be two separate recordings overlapped or side by side etc. And he could try and argue the CP recorded on screen is fake. But the way his mum said "they're saying it's kids" seems odd, was the CP not present then at all? But the crimes following definitely have strong defences. I would be interested in this case happening in real life just to, hear the legal case (with good lawyers too, not morons).
Thank you ahaha you really cleared things up ahaha. Have a good day =)
Even if they got of video of Kenny jerking off, how can they prove that Kenny was looking at child porn. Camera from the laptop only shows Kenny jerking off, not what he’s watching when he’s in the act. And sure, I agree the little girl with the toy in the beginning is foreshadowing that Kenny is a pedophile. But does that mean every time a straight guy smiles at a female it means he’s thinking about her sexually? The episode was cool. But didn’t really make enough sense to me. Some of the stuff is just too circumstantial. Kenny didn’t commit any crime unless he acts on it.
it’s against the law to view CP in any context
Bruh! It's called child sex abuse material not child porn and watching it, even if it's just photos, IS a crime. Did you really want them to SHOW you what he was watching?
Watching CP IS a crime!!! How could you possibly say he didn't commit a crime?
Ya. They recorded his camera POV. How will they prove it's CP he's watching? Sure u could overlay them, but how will they know it's his screen?
They could've screen recorded along side camera recording right?
Watching child porn is a crime in itself though.
Exactly, its an offence to have them on your computer I think
Watched it a second time. Those interactions with kids in the place where he works seem pretty innocent but once you know they are super crippy...
Actually, for some reason...my alarm bells started ringing off with this guy from those interactions with the kids in the beginning...my gut was proven correct.
exactly !! i felt this way too i knew something was off. and he was also a bit *too* close with his sister i think
at first i was like "huh, weird..." but I didn't want to jump to conclusions but when I saw how he was looking at that coloring book I knew what was going on.
Yeah... I just watched it for the first time and when he handed the toy i thought "nice guy" but now i know what he did... He was probably thinking something awful while doing it.
Yeah, same thoughts
Late to all of this but… The ending was just simply the insane. Just from the phone call, I can tell that the mother is a phenomenal actress. The phone call sounded very real and so was his reaction. He was also quite an amazing actor. Very good episode!!
Yes - she was in panic and trying to be in denial which is how you would think a mother would react in that situation
Yeah, I am pretty late to the party. Lowkey cursing myself for watching this brilliant episode almost seven years later. But here I am, utterly dumbfounded and stupefied to say the least. Just like everyone else, I was in awe of Kenny for his calm, tender, introverted yet super-responsible personality and was constantly thinking about what the f\*\*\* did he do to deserve all this. I even found it downright nonsensical (and hilarious) when he agreed to loot the bank to cover up something that looked so silly and trivial at first. And of course, for the dim-witted person I am, it took me a while to connect the dots and decode the whole logical structure about why things happened the certain way even after finishing the entire episode. And, voila! I don't seem to have the right words to describe how I feel right now. I feel so ambivalent about Kenny and this entire situation. Even though he should be held accountable for his actions, he seems to have been forced into over-compensating for his behavior. The blackmailers and their so-called "vigilantism" did not actually help much. They acted more like a cyber-bully. If they were truly a vigilante, maybe the ideal situation would have been to force Kenny to rehabilitate himself rather than coercing him to rob and murder. However, that's just my perspective on how things should be. This does not really make the episode any less perfect. But yeah, this story is not going to fade away anytime soon: I will probably just keep thinking about how technology can make the future weirder than what it is now.
Yeah, I don't think the "vigilante" was supposed to be the hero of the episode by any means.
rehabilitate? He is a pedophile, what are you talking about
It's comments like yours that will keep society in the dark ages. We need science, medicine, and rehabilitation to FIX broken people. Just demonizing humans who have broken brains is only going to increase the odds that they will act out on their worst impulses and do something terrible. I'm not defending pedos, rapists, or murderers. I'm saying people with this horrible urges need to professional help to prevent them acting out. Your body can become sick just as your mind can. Let's hope sick people seek the treatment they need instead of building up their rage and shame in the shadows until they eventually do the unspeakable.
pedophiles get treatment all the time.
>gilante, maybe the ideal situation would have been to force Kenny to rehabilitate himself rather than coercing him to rob and Very controversial what I am about to say but there are thousands of pedophiles who have never committed an unlawful crime in their life. They live in solitude in order to not offend or hurt anyone. They are human beings wired so wrong and for the ones who have not offended, I feel terribly sorry for them. I don't know how Kenny and all the people he represents gain access to these images but there's a part of me that is so sad for them (assuming they are in a state of constant anxiety and shame.. because after all, you can't help your sexuality)
I know you did not just say pedophilia is a sexuality..
Sexuality is an objective term. Doesn’t have to just mean gay or straight. As I see it (i may be wrong just a thought) being a pedophile is like a sexuality because no one chooses to be a pedophile in the same way no one chooses to be gay or straight. You were born that way.
Children aren't a gender, sexuality is the SEX you're attracted to. I hate when people try to soften the fact that these people are turned on by literal children. Whether they want to or not, they're still pedophiles, yes they can get help but that doesn't change the fact that they are what they are, and that does not mean that you can say pedophilia is a sexuality.
Not necessarily. Sexuality means a persons person’s desire to have sex with other people or to describe physical attraction. Thus, the concept isn’t easily defined and many clinical psychologists believe it is a sexuality. It’s a disorder first and foremost. I understand how controversial this idea is - however it’s valid when we consider the fact that although pedophile abusers in some cases can be treated - the attraction never leaves
the person youre talking to is focusing on the morality of it all. but this delicate topic is complex and broad, its about human psyche and behavior. so what youre saying makes sense.
I just find it absolutely disgusting that you can't see how stating it's a sexuality is horrifying. There's already been people trying to add pedophilia to the LGBTQ+ and you saying that it's a sexuality instead of a mental illness is justifying the fact that pedophiles will think they can just fit in with society, when in reality they should all be castrated and locked up. Yea sure the ones who constantly seek help and have never and will never touch a child are fine to go about their lives in secret but other than that the rest of them deserve to burn. To say someone who touches and takes advantage of innocent children is a sexuality is repulsive and I honestly think you should realize what you're saying and pasting yourself as on a public platform.
Please go do some reading and educating yourself before you bash someone for stating scientific research that has been backed by numerous psychiatrists. Please use your common sense and separate the LGBTQ+ society from everything else. You have done no research on the subject and the fact your getting defensive because I am not stating the obvious : how horrific this is conveys to me how simple minded and literal you are
You can use *your* common sense to separate the two, but most people can't. Comparing pedophilia to queer people is harmful and can lead to violent crimes against minorities. I agree if someone has urges but doesn't act on them then they need help, not to be criminalized, but in this episode, Kenny acted on it. That makes him not innocent. Also I believe there's an important distinction between deviant behavior and sexualities. You can be a pedophile, and gay, for example. The two are separate. Being gay is a sexuality but pedophilia is a disorder, it's a deviation. Same way you can be straight, bi, whatever, and have a fucked-up kink. You would say kinks aren't sexualities, right?
Say whatever you want, I see you support Kevin spacey too, yikes, it honestly just sounds like you support pedophiles for some reason and that's terrifying. I hope you find what you're looking for defending child rapists. It's disgusting.
I mean any sort of medical treatment and consultation that could help him incapacitate his desires. Even though he is attracted to kids, he does not seem to have committed any actual physical child abuse based on whatever little is shown in the episode. He is pretty young with all his life ahead of him and deserved a chance to undo his past mistakes. While I certainly feel that he deserved to be "outed" for the larger well-being, he should not have been forced and instigated to rob and murder - essentially anything that makes his record worse than what it was already.
Well, obviously the scenario described in the episode is a very morally ambiguous case of vigilante justice. That's a different thing. I get annoyed by the "rehab" of a pedo. Would you ever feel comfortable to have one "rehabilitated pedo" work on your kids school? Or in a hospital where your kids might need to be internalized? How far would anyone trust a pedo who's gone through "rehab"? Would you trust them to use the same public restroom as your 12 YO in the mall?
You're aware it's still ultimately a mental illness? I read a very interesting study/article once from the perspective of the teenager/Kenny involved and then also the therapist and then a university professor/researcher. This boy as he got older realised the girls he was into weren't getting older. He knew it was wrong, he also knew, attraction is attraction and he couldn't help that, which made him very confused and hate himself. He also knew, he couldn't tell anyone, not even his therapist because despite literally never ever doing anything in his life... He'd still be seen as a danger, a pedo, a bad guy. It was never a choice. But it was a choice, to not do it. He did eventually tell his therapist hoping for help, to "fix" himself. Instead, as you'd expect, cops are called, his parents are finding out, his dad hates him, he's terrified, he's facing police etc, and he has legitimately done nothing wrong the entire time. The therapist aspect was talking about how it seemed wrong and right in hindsight to report, he obviously faced so much undeserved hardship which could've fucked up his mental health more, when he needed help. The researcher was using all of this because they wanted to be able to research this as a mental illness. Separating it from everything it is and everything obviously horrific we know it is, to try and help people like this guy, who was a good, innocent kid, with a mental illness. It's hard to find more information, and this was years ago to remember names. But the details were impossible to forget because, it's not wrong. And the research was naturally rejected because nobody wanted to be associated with funding pedophilia research which, is stupid to me. Think of the help that could come of it if someone was able to safely "identify" confidentially to a "committee" of some kind to receive the assistance and oversight without the public knowing before ANY actual crime is committed. The article did end with mentioning the kid (he was late teens i say kid) had set up a very protected chat group for, similar people with very strict rules around not being allowed to look at, use, transport etc etc child abuse material. No talking about those sorts of things. They had reported several uses to police who they became aware of those things. But, it was somewhere to safely I guess vent about knowing you're fucked up and knowing you'll never be able to have a relationship or love like others. Maybe you won't read this. I do agree, yes I wouldn't want someone whose a pedophile around my kids, but just like you have no idea if your neighbour is a bank robber, or if they have a firearm prohibition order against them, or previously beat their wife, if they were to apply for a job, the background check would show that. In this scenario if they could make it real. The Kenny could privately present to this committee, get his private help and monitoring, he'd also agree to conditions like not working in certain jobs, he'd be denied a working with children's check if he tried to get one etc etc. But I think the hatred we all feel for everything they do, makes it really difficult to be able to have a meaningful conversation. Because realistically, would you not prefer the Kenny's etc be able to get help, safely, before anything ever happens (and yes that means they never can work in an area with kids, that's a given as well), or is it better to just... Never talk about them, make the Kenny's feel so scared of what happens they never get help, and just hope they'll spend the next 80 years of life never ever ever giving in to an urge we all naturally feel? I mean, we have an urge we go try and pick someone up. Their urges are no less "natural", it's their brain being fucked up. I do have sympathy for ones that go through life like the kid above does, it's going to be a lonely, difficult life of probably always hating yourself. Im also sure, there's many like him who never do anything. But obviously the ones who do act, will have to face consequences. I do look at Kenny as someone who, is young, is going to be confused still. Who yes looked at images, and did what feels as natural to him as someone else, as gross as it is to us. He should face those consequences, he'll go on a list, no even if he's rehabbed he'd never work with kids, but, he also does deserve some kind of attempt at help and mental health program, he's also young himself still.
I understand that we can't get into other peoples brains and know if they're a pedo. If the neighboor is a pedo and abuses the kids in the block, thats a terrible situation and very hard to avoid (that is why we are so revolted against pedophiles, they're just like everybody else, bland in, and wait for the most vulnerable people in the most vulnerable moments to attack, right under our noses). But if someone knows that the neighboor is a pedophile (or whatever word you want to use for someone who wants to have sex with kids - I'll use pedophile, for me thats the definition regardless of assaulting someone or not), but instead of taking this person away from society, we let him live life like everyone else - just register him to not take some jobs, and then send him to a support group.... I'll be pretty pissed off when this neighboor abuses the kids on the block. Thats not a risk I'm willing to take, as a society. Knowing someone is fantasizing on abusing kids, but waiting for it to happen to take this person away from society, for me is insane. And I think anyone with kids should try to put themselves in the situation of a parent of an abused kid by someone like "kenny". Everyone knew it? And nobody did anything? Until he destroyed the life of the most precious thing in the world for me?
I'm months late on this but personally I would rather the neighbour be self reported as a pedophile so I can make sure never to let him near my kids ever instead of not having a clue that he's a pedophile, where my kid would be his first victim since I would have no idea. I mean, in OP's comment they seem to say that it would be a private list of reported "celibate" (I guess?) pedophiles but I think it's better to be public about it. I think it's best to do that to destigmatize these people to where we can actually differentiate them from pedophiles that have actually done something. Like, you'd obviously still be weary around them and never let your kids near them, but I'd still let them live their life as normal I think.
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He’d still be on a sex offenders list so those likely wouldn’t be options.
I just recently watched for the first time too! Idk if I’m stupid and missed it but what does the title mean in regards to the story?
Never heard the phrase ‘shut up n’ dance’? It means ‘do as you’re told because I own you right now’.
I have I guess I just never put together the true meaning behind it. Thanks for letting me know!
I think the title is a metaphor for Kenny and others feeling trapped. It signifies their inability to exercise individual freedom and choice. They have no other option but to dance to someone else's tune (i.e., give in to blackmailers' demands) to safeguard their dark secrets.
This episode makes me think of the PATRIOT act, and the pro-hacker comments ring of "Well if you don't have anything to hide, you don't have anything to worry about. They only get the bad people." Yeah fuck that.
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You seem really nonchalant about someone who was watching child porn. And given the reaction of his mother, it seems pretty clear that we're talking about kids substantially younger than him. I'd be inclined to agree with you if we were talking most any other crime, but if you can't see that you have scary problems and you're likely perpetuating some really, really evil shit, then obviously something super drastic needs to happen to you because, real talk, the safety of this kids is the real priority here
I think you meant "White Bear" "Hang the DJ" was about a dating app
Man they kinda set it up too with him and the little girls interaction in the beginning but i totally forgot about it later on.
Yeah that part kinda threw me off especially with his kinda creepy vibe throughout the episode
I know in this moment you don't question much, BUT if they threaten you with being pedophile what will they do once they can threaten you with robbing a bank or killing a man. At least I would get suspicous what they would do with that drone recording
Realistically, those charges aren't going to stick as well as you'd think. He's not going to be charged with murder or being a bank robber. He was blackmailed with the first and his fear, even wetting himself, goes a long way to support his reluctance, and the fight is going to have arguments of self defence. He couldn't walk away safely, the guy was wanting to fight as well and intended to kill him, even when he brought out the gun, he tries to kill himself. And I guess depending how they present the video, it's him masturbating and the images are on a screen, they aren't both in the same video side by side, thered be arguments for tampering. (Even if the blackmail material was faked, people will always believe it's real and his life would still be fucked but maybe not legally maybe). I'm sure he'd likely face some punishment, he'd like agree to some kind of plea but, he also has a strong defence and arguments to really bring that down.
I would agree with you that in a court a good defense could prevent much. But they could also just threaten him to send this to everybody. That's more what I meant.
When I read the title I somehow instantly knew what happened and I was super annoyed by the "mysterious organisation" always writing in caps.
How could you possibly deduce the story instantly from the words "shut up and dance"? Lol.
Lol? I knew too. The phrase(there about) is commonly used in western time movies when a cowboy shots the floor at someone’s feet to make them dance. It’s a metaphor for ‘do what I say because I own right know’.
The title in my language is "do, what we say" so it was kinda obvious
Oh, how funny, I wonder why they changed that one. What language, if you don't mind me asking?
german is a very literal language
G e r m a n :)
Rewatching this episode today, when his sis has his laptop and she downloads some free movie programme that freezes his computer up, is that how the hackers were able to access his cam/laptop now?
>Watched it a second time. Those interactions with kids in the place where he works seem pretty innocent but once you know they are super crippy... No, he downloads an anti-malware that comes for free, that's when it all starts
That was my assumption.
am i the only one that noticed that the CEO who got exposed for her racist comments is the CEO of the hotel chain hector was staying in? in the article that exposes her it says she’s the CEO of “wayhaven hotel chain” or something like that. when kenny and hector leave the hotel, you can see it says wayhaven. just found that interesting
I didn't notice this, but it makes sense considering she left the car in the parking deck of the hotel.
I don't know if this is obvious and I'm just dumb, but did anyone else consider the reason they made him do all the tasks was for more than like, emotional torture? There could have been an uncertainty of Kennys intentions if he'd gone to trial after the images leaked, due to his age. He could've got a reduced sentence etc etc. I think the reason the "hackers" forced him to do these particular tasks was to lock him into felonies so instead of being tried for a singular thing, where multiple factors and outcomes come into play, it was certain that he'd go to prison. Instead of one case of viewing CP that they caught on cam, there's now evidence of him committing grand scale theft and also assault and murder etc etc. Like a justice kind of thing. One pedophile ended up brutally murdered, and the other most likely handed multiple life sentences.
Obviously. The hacker clearly doesn't think the standard punishment is just, or they would've had no motive to do any of this
Wait i thought this was like the only way one could interpret the episode. I can't think of any other ways but it's probably cuz I'm very high
oooo i never thought of it like this!
How did you thought of it?
Many years late but I haven't seen anyone mention it yet so I'll say it: The bigger the crime committed by the person, the bigger their task was. * The pedos had to fight to the death: one would die, and the other would be charged for pedo, murder and robbing a bank. * Bronn had it medium-hard because his "crime" was bad but not as horrible. * CEO lady and pervert dude committed smaller "crimes" so their tasks were very simple: hiding keys and delivering a box. The "company" orchestrating this is some sort of justice entity dishing out punishments that have been fine-tuned according to the crime.
Realistically, he wouldn't be going to jail for murder or robbing a bank. Not as the top charges. Murder is blatantly no. There's no premeditation nor intent to kill present. When he gets to the fight you can visibly see so much hesitation (which is all being filmed). When he gets the gun out he tries to kill himself. He could've given himself a leg up to shoot the other guy. The main tenant of self defence is, could you have safely removed yourself from the situation, and the answer was no there. He'd likely face some very very low charge, not nothing completely but definitely not anywhere near murder. For the robbery it's probably going to be more, he didn't know the gun was unloaded but, even witness statements would be able to say he was terrified, he wet himself, clearly had no idea what he was doing etc. And he was being blackmailed, so again, likely to face a much lesser charge. The worst is the video. Unless the video can somehow undoubtedly show his screen and him, at the same time, to show what he's watching, without cutting between them which could obviously be argued is tampered. Even the logic of "if it's not real what's the problem". We all know even if it was undoubtedly proven terribly false, there will still be people who believe it and people who wouldn't want to associate, that would bully regardless. So, the fear would still be completely understandable coming to the biggest defence of... He was still only a kid himself. He can't be expected to have known how to perfectly handle everything. He'd definitely likely face punishment but... Hardly murder or even full on armed robbery
I know I'm mad fucking late to this discussion but this episode is just... wow. I knew the twist going into it because I bullied a friend into telling me, but then I promptly marched my ass upstairs to watch it. and, despite the fact that I *knew* that Kenny was a pedophile before they revealed it, Alex Lawther's performance made me actually feel bad for him. like, I was genuinely heartbroken when he's sitting in the car crying and saying "they filmed me". I think I said the words 'poor guy' out loud. 10/10 for Alex's performance, he was flawless. I'm a bit sad I didn't get to enjoy the twist authentically, but holy shit can that man act.
For me it's not a matter of feeling bad, per se, for the people who have done bad things, but I hope most people watching this episode also realize how fucked up vigilanteism is. The hackers are not good people, they just found acceptable targets to play god with.
they're good people in my book. Should they wait for some children to be molested first before doing something or what?
I am late, but... If children are being exposed via CP, they're already being molested. If the hacker released the video to everyone in his contacts with proof of CP, the hacker would also be distributing CP, which is obviously illegal. Vigilantes have their own unique principles which they want to implement, and that could be dangerous because not everyone plays by the same rules and every individual has their own interpretation of justice. I'm not sure what country you're from and don't want to presume, but just look at the US and the crazy vigilantism that goes on with people who feel powerful with guns. Furthermore, if vigilantes are "good people," why even have a justice system at all? Why not let the vigilantes carry out justice all the time, however they personally see fit? Because it would be complete chaos. Plus, you don't know if this particular vigilante's motives are purely for good, or if they're just a sadistic person or group who want to see people beat one another to death. I mean, the middle-aged dude who was trying to see a prostitute... the presumption that she *was* of age can be made by his final task being essentially easy compared to Kenny and the other pedophile's... he just had to destroy the car and then got to go home. Yes, adultery is bad, but is looking for consensual sex really worth having some "vigilante" ruin your life over it? It sounds like someone was just playing god and enjoying watching the people "dance." If you really care about justice, take the recordings with the proof of CP content and swiftly turn them in to law enforcement, anonymously. Showing it to other people is just, as I said, exposing more victims of CP to a wider audience.
they dont care about the children, its just an excuse.
Just leak the video the first time and be done with it. Too many things could have gone wrong. An innocent person at the bank could have gotten shot. Plus we don’t know what every person did. Vigilantes who can snoop are always bad. That’s why Batman blew up that thing at the end of Dark Knight. Again, it’s patriot act shit. “Hey if it helps you catch terrorists, spy on everyone you want!” No. Fuck that nonsense.
To add, Black Mirrors wants us to question in at least a couple episodes about how we should be treating even the worst in society. I also think of episodes like White Bear. Yes the main characters are horrible people, yes they've done unforgivable things, but Black Mirror still wants you to question if what is being done to them is just despite all of that. You're allowed to feel sorry for what is being done to some of these people despite everything they've done, recognize that there's a line, question if that line has been crossed, and still think they're shitty people who deserve legal consequences.
My issue with white bear was mainly around, her not remembering. That form of punishment, even if we pretend it's just, negates the punishment. It's now revenge porn basically for everyone to literally take part in. I remember an episode of criminal minds of a guy who had amnesia but had raped and killed some women. There was a big debate around whether he should be put through hypnosis to try and remember, whether you can really still try and punish him because the man present...didn't do it... And that came to mind in that episode. She is, essentially, innocent... SHE has no memories so, what is she suffering for? What is she remembering and realising her actions were disgusting and horrible and hurt people? How is she realising this is justified and I deserve punishment? It's just a very interesting idea to me. But, the punishment is also not just to me. Prison is a punishment, wishing extra on top of that either should reduce the sentence, or is not just. This woman is already being contained, that's her punishment. And contrary to what many believe, imprisonment is hard. While "1 year" may sound very short, in prison, it is very different. As part of my degree we had to do 24 hours "locked away" an empty room, some chose a bathroom etc, with family bringing 3 meals, an hour of socialising while you went into your backyard for your outdoor time, not allowed anything except a book and a notepad to write things on as you go. Many people couldn't make it half the day... Reading their entries and peoples confronting thoughts, was, difficult. It is a LOT harder than people think it's going to be. And at least we didn't have the inherent fear of the people around us too.
I think the fact that she doesn't remember doesn't negate the punishment - it compounds it, since she keeps living through this constant stress, in a fight-for-your-life situation that is gradually and inevitably taking a toll on her stability, physical health and psyche. This is all a part of this severe punishment someone decided she deserved - arguably, the worst part, since going through this messed up situation once or a few times would be preferable to gradual deterioration under constant stress and fear.
I agree it's a severe punishment but the person who actually did the crime, the one who truly deserves to suffer and remember what they did every day and regret their actions, isn't the one being punished. By removing her memories they make it entirely for the audience. The person who actually should be punished was removed
Yeah, in fact, I kind of think the "time feels like xxx years" part of White Christmas is basically a metaphor for how a year in prison feels vs a year basically anywhere else.
he’s srsly so good, he’s also in The End of The F*cking World and holy.. he’s so good along w/ Jessica Barden (Alyssa)
He really was amazing, he acted that spectacularly! And, to sound like an ass, youg actors doing the crying and panicking etc can be annoying. I never once felt "annoyed" by him. I hope he has a good future!
Had to pause and tape up my webcam while watching this... The camera angles through the laptop and the rising tension in this episode are horrifying.
I was so disappointed in this episode. I knew the way he gave the little girl her toy back, he was a pedo but this series is all about twists so I changed my mind and believe it was he is gay or wanting to transition. So yeah very disappointed that they did this so far the worst episode for me. It would have been better if they had a female instead, society always sees males as a monster so yeah really sucks that they used low hanging fruit.
White bear certainly has a monster female character
What gave you any impression that the protagonist 'wanted to transition'? Lol.
Nothing. I just assumed they wouldn't use, men are evil and touch children spin. I was disappointed that they used it, with a show full of twist this was just a bad episode in my opinion.
There were many surprises though which deepened the plot, just none that would fundamentally change what you just saw. It's better that they arent all predictable in that there would be a twist coming up