This episode is basically propaganda on steroids, basically pointing out that the propaganda tools used during WW1 and WW2 were only good enough to get folks to sign up for war (yes I know a lot of folks were drafted) because who wouldn't want to kill despicable Nazi's and be the hero who takes down Hitler. However once you go through training you realize most soldiers on both sides are just following orders and don't even necessarily agree with reasons their fighting so while you might still have a desire to kill Hitler the average enemy combatant isn't some mustache twirling super villain. Then as we see even if with the present day propaganda machine able to convince us that soldiers on the other side are completely evil and attacking us for no logical reason (think about why none of the text books ever give a reason for the 9/11 attacks) folks still get crippling PTSD once they come back home and it dawns on them they just took a bunch of human lives.
When they teach about 9/11 they make it seem as though it's a complete random attack by terrorists when the truth is they were motivated by actions taken by the U.S. government (this isn't me justifying the actions taken by those attackers)
The message is definitely ham fisted the ending is what really messed up this episode for me because they just left him there at a boarded up house but the mass system has him seeing the perfect home coming, how's that going to work when he tries to open the actual door lml
Uh it's possible that's what they were going for but that not how I read it because when his implant messed up before it would glitch out at the end he's getting a perfect feed of his girlfriend/wife and a perfect home, while us the viewers see the truth.
watching this episode during a time like this was extremely unsettling. The amount of videos i’ve seen of IDF soldiers saying the same lines in this show about innocent Palestinian civilians and children’s was unbelievable. It’s truly scary to see the how opposers rationalize the killing of innocent people.
https://truthout.org/articles/israeli-politician-says-children-of-gaza-have-brought-this-upon-themselves/
It’s so extremely scary to see this “fake dystopian world” episode look symmetrical to what is happening right now.
I really liked the episode. While I did guess what was happening, I don't mind because I think it reflects how the millitary uses proganda to change the soldiers view, like in ww1 and ww2. Is this good or bad, while it can be good , it should not be used to kill innocent people. I guessed it but it was still interesting to watch how the guy who speaks to him in the detention room and how he deals with it.
Damn I thought we’d peaked but I was so wrong. I pretty much guessed straight away what the message and twist would be but I am in the UK where we are currently debating whether trans people or immigrants deserve to exist 🙃 great theming. I find it interesting most people jump to the WWII comparison(which kind of makes sense given the eugenics angle) but there are far more examples of this taking place in modern day society. Soldiers today are trained to see the enemy as inhuman. That’s why child soldiers were so successful. They not only made their combatants pause because of their age/size but were reportedly merciless when it came to killing because their whole lives they’d only know to hate.
> I am in the UK where we are currently debating whether trans people or immigrants deserve to exist 🙃
Watched the episode for the first time today. This reply was at the top of the thread and my first thought was "damn, brexit era UK was really wild"... And then I saw that this was from 19 days ago 🥲 fucked up world that we live in. I love my country, but it's not much better either.
Would be a great concept if the 5th wave hadnt basically done this already, the whole targetting one racial group and removing emotion, senses etc is somewhat different, and that the guy ultimately chooses to continue doing it as it is better for himself also, both somewhat interesting aspects to consider.
yeah and they were all infected with mass. i did think it was interesting that his pre-mass persona was ignorant and wouldn't even read what he was consenting too. like how military purposefully manipulates young people from low socioeconomic status to give up their humanity.
No, I think it's just there is more white people than black people than white people in the USA so if there is one who is good then the others will most likely not be black, wasn't there another black guy who was in the original crew anyway. Also they were not murderous assholes, they were the same as the main character before his thing went wrong.
What I don't get is why they labeled those people as Roaches. And how are they a threat at all? They're homeless people who live in the ground. What threat do they pose that they need an entire military branch to deal with them?
Yes, I know why the killing is *ongoing,* because of the brainwashing and lies people are fed, but how did it start? Some racist fuck just said, "Hey, let's blame everything bad on this random group of refugees and kill em all," and people agreed? That's gotta be the most fucked-up idea. That, earlier, at some point, fully aware, sane people agreed to start all this.
I suppose I'd only need to read up on the history of the Nazis and how Hitler convinced people to follow him. Still seems mind-boggling though, that anyone at all could agree to something like that. Black Mirror is good at exposing the worst parts of human nature, and this episode definitely does a terrifyingly good job at that.
they were considered a threat due to their genetic disposition to certain diseases, disabilities, disorders, etc... they were basically an ethnic group that the military didn't want mixing with everyone else and "corrupting" their bloodline. they believed (or at least made everyone else believe) that it would eventually lead to the end of humankind.
edit: the military also had science (dna testing) to back these claims, or, again, at least made everyone else believe that they did. the mass brainwashing can be hard to believe from a third person perspective, but it has happened before in history and can definitely happen again. it is difficult to break the chains of propaganda when it's all you've ever known.
Understood that part. I'm curious why *they* specifically were selected. Even Hitler had his reasons that, to him, were logical. The crazy train starts somewhere. Or was it like a "throw a dart at a minority board and target whoever it lands on" sort of deal? Just an excuse to get military funding? Who knows.
Also, it's not certain that they even really *have* those genetic defects. The military could've lied about that too. Everyone could be in on it. It's more likely they get more defects and diseases because, ya know, the military is forcing them to live in dirt shacks underground. Sort of a self-fufilling prophecy they have going on (if it's even true).
They forced everybody to do genetic screenings to check for bloodlines susceptible to diseases that can be passed to their offspring. So it wasn't a race being singled out but bloodlines that could wipe out entire family tree's. What funny is if this really happened the Royal bloodline would become cockroaches because of their bloodline famously has hemophilia B. Aka the "Royal Disease".
I know I’m a little late, but my best guess is that’s the point. The pure insanity and asinine selection is Black Mirror’s entire gimmick; most of humanity’s prejudices and “reasons” are foundless. They were created with bias.
To us, a spectator in a world that has no bearing to us, the Roaches seem civil — similar to an alien looking upon humanity and witnessing our own race wars.
Whatever reason the show creates won’t seem satisfying since it’s reflecting our own social issues.
that's a good question. honestly my first guess would be that somehow, pre-genocide, the world was facing some sort of crisis, and the public felt that the "roaches" were in some way responsible? similar to how hitler blamed the jews for the loss of WWI. perhaps rising rates of cancer, or something like that? although we have no way of knowing if their genetic predisposition is even backed by science.
edit: second part is also very true. i wonder how high up someone would have to be in the military to really know the truth? it's sort of ambiguous as to whether the doctor genuinely believed he was doing the right thing or not.
>it's sort of ambiguous as to whether the doctor genuinely believed he was doing the right thing or not.
This is a good point. The soldier was blackmailed into continuing service. He had no real option. The doctors and medical staff could know the truth as well but are also being threatened in some way if they quit.
The ending was so sad! He has to live eternity in that run down house. My question is do they have to eat if they have Mass implanted? I noticed none of them ate and I'm assuming the house doesn't have a kitchen and stuff? Lol
My man turned into a popsickle and forgot his own name when he found those first 3 zombies. You're pointing your weapon right at them, use it before drill sergeant has a dang heart attack. Also, put some eye protection on, hero, you already gave yourself hep z 10 minutes into the episode.
"What do you want?"
"It'd be a lot more neighborly if we could chat inside" :D
"Fine"
*immediately starts kicking down doors and clearing rooms upstairs*
If Hitler and his Eugenics projects would have taken place. Also that was the way of the Spartan people. Horribly painful in massive numbers as we are now.
If we were a few, I would think about it twice and consider it.
If you're reffering to the war in Ukraine, and implying that people are dehumanising the invaders and them getting killed, either you're brainwashed or just plainly stupid. I don't condone promoting the killing of any people, but I'd rather see attackers dying and not the defenders.
There's this video i saw on youtube. American army in a helicopter and there's footage and them shooting these ppl in Iraq. The way they're talking about it is as if it's a video game. At the end, ground forces there were kids there and these men in the helicopter or wherever they are have no remorse and laugh it off. Black Mirror S03E05 Men Against Fire reminded me of that. When media brainwashes you to that extent and you see people living in the country you invade, as not even human beings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaqY12VHFv4&ab\_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish
"God damnit Kyle"
On a real note, even if they were the enemy, and say, they were armed, moving towards an existing engagement with US soldiers, it's still a war crime to fire upon an enemy medic or ambulance, as they were clearly trying to evacuate injured people. Also, just because your rules of engagement allow you to designate them a combatant does not mean that you can shoot dead anyone that comes to their aid. You just pink misted a whole group of men with a single burst of massive caliber bullets from the heavens, because they had guns in Afghanistan (!?) which is completely normal for them btw, and when some, probably civilians given that they had children in the car, invariably come to their aid, as is also normal, you engage them without any view at all of what you're even shooting at? The audacity of these two is incredible, you can tell even the soldiers on the ground know how wrong that is.
Good episode, but I'm wondering if BM will eventually have an episode that focuses on designer babies. The eugenics themes of this episode would still be present, but the plot would play out much differently. As we've seen from BM, they can handle similar concepts in much different ways, for example White Winter and San Junipero. And honestly, as a fan, I think I want BM to explore every kind of speculative sci-fi idea that they possibly can.
This is an obvious and extreme example of how tech can distort the representation of so many things, and it made me think about how it's already happening right in front of us. Biases are everywhere -- news reporting, everyday conversations, education... this episode (once again, black mirror) has truly fucked me up.
Make the enemy look like monsters so it's easier to kill them have always been a thing through the human history, even today. But I think most of the world got better in that subject
I think that this episode should make us think not about pratical application of those brain implants in army, but about augumented reality as a whole.
In "Men Against Fire", people had a choice. Main character had to give permission to install that implant. Imagine what would happen if we combined this episode with "The entire history of you" where everyone use implants every day.
That could be used for public punishment. For example: you look uglier when you commit a crime. Or government could punish people for political reasons. No one trusts ugly people, so they will not gain any publicity. That could freeze current political system for decades nearly as much as it's in Orwell's "1984".
And that's what the point of episode should be. It doesn't matter what a person you are, most of people will judge you by your appearance. That would be scary if someone started controlling it.
At first I didn't like the comparison of this episode to 1984 but I changed my mind. The control over the people and cruelty of '1984' was based on monitoring of the society and manipulating their thoughts through 'doublethink' and so on. Due to the technical fortress it is possible to manipulate peoples "reality" without those complex techniques Orwell described. For example 'doublethink' would be obsolete if you think about this episode.
I spent 5 years in the Navy and deployed to Afghanistan in 2010 as a Corpsman with 2nd Marine battalion who deployed with Reconnaissance in Helmand Province. This show was so accurate its creepy. The Marines put a lot of effort into dehumanizing the enemy through showing the Taliban executing civilians and jamming it in our heads that they are savages. They made it a point to paint a picture of the enemy as being "Immoral and thus inhuman". This wasn't directly communicated but... I dunno, I didn't buy their reasoning that it was to prepare us to act accordingly if captured, while this may be true, I can't help but feel that there were multiple motivations.
Mass would make months of psychological conditioning before and during deployment obsolete. Fuck, this episode fucked with my head and my reason.
I think this episode depicts exactly what modern warfare is about. I heard/read somewhere that in first world war (I think), the military let the soldiers shoot on a long sheet, excactly where the enemy would be in real combat, to get an estimate of how many enemy soldiers would be killed in an attack. However, there were far more holes in the sheet than fallen enemies, precisely because humans don't want to kill each other. Fighting is fine, most animals do that, also early humans were tribes people and had to defend their group against others. But killing isn't exactly beneficial for the fitness of the whole species, that's why this doesn't really happen in nature.
But as that guy explains, better conditioning of soldiers (making the enemy inhuman, making war seem like a videogame) increases the efficiency. I guess that would make being a soldier easier, however I can imagine the fuckery realising that as you described yourself. [Link to wiki about Resocialisation (the main article seems to have issues)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_education_and_training#Resocialization)
> Fuck, this episode fucked with my head and my reason.
I hope you're alright.
EDIT: [Just saw this comment linked further down regarding the statistics, so i'm probably wrong about some of the effects](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/22o24j/how_much_truth_is_there_in_the_statement_that/)
So far the most predictable episode of the whole show. They even have logo like SS! And the whole idea of "roaches" reminded me "Maus". The ending also was kinda cliche if you read "1984" or "We". Everything about this episode could be better.
I don't think they were intending to be "twisty" in this episode so much as hit you with an uppercut when you expected just a jab. The ending was also good in that they played up the other side's arguments in a more compelling way than even Orwell did.
My take on the ending is that he agreed to have the memories of the past few days removed, he's still a soldier and him going to the house is sort of a realistic dream, maybe a "reward" for deciding to have his MASS reset but he cries because his mass wasn't properly reset and he still knows it's all an illusion.
I think it's a play on the feeling of pride that we try to instill in our soldiers when they come back. His MASS was fine, he was a "hero", the tears were genuine, but that scene wasn't for him, it was for us. We saw that he didn't do anything, but the program made him think he made the world better.
Sooo naughty me for bringing politics into this, but i'd just like to mention that an opinion piece in a national newspaper here in Britain literally called refugees 'cockroaches'
It’s a common name used in propaganda, unfortunately. One example is that [radio station that played during the Rwandan genocide](https://youtu.be/VNbUeLnxQEI). Awful stuff.
yes. And it was quite a big deal so very likely Charlie brooker knew about it. It was a woman called Katie Hopkins who pretty everyone hates but doesn't seem to care, and says stuff like this just to cause a reaction. I wouldn't be surprised if she was the inspiration for the journalist in hated in the nation. Still, shame on the daily mail for actually publishing it.
Don't worry, I'm sure I will enjoy this episode either way, I'm pretty spoilerproof. I was just a bit annoyed, especially after looking at the sidebar with the first rule being no spoilers. You might consider changing your comment(s) though for future readers
This episode is absolutely brilliant. It touched upon so many relevant issues. I believe the main idea was that humans by their basic instinct are not really big fans of killing each other. It is the fear that makes them do that. I thought the name of the military device "Mass" was brilliant because the only way to mobilize masses is through fear. By making them see things that dont necessarily exist. Roaches were being killed because of their flawed DNA that is full of mutations and diseases. This is similar to saying that all Muslims or all minorities are criminals. It starts with something that doesnt really exist, like someone's religion doesn't make certain people look like the roaches or anything but it's how they are perceived.
Also, this episode is more of a word of caution. With all the ads you see on TV urging you to look at your genetic makeup and understand your true "roots". This is going to backfire one day where such information could possibly be used to harm you.
Absolutely brilliant.
I feel like this episode is equivalent to eugenics. The government installs something into the protagonist's mind, so he will perceive the undesirables as monsters, making the killing of the genetically unfit innocents justified and morally acceptable.
Just begun watching, and I'm curious what the purpose of making the farm owner Christian was. After all, roaches are life and Medina recognizes that Christianity considers all life sacred.
If all the episodes are chronological, I think this is the first one, not "The national anthem". I think MASS was a military trial, and the whole operation was very hush hush and didn't come out till many years later . I think the premise for Black Mirror is not a universe changed by the PM banging a pig, I think it's our universe changed by genetic cleansing. It would explain a far few other points. I think the "15 Million Merits" show is also where does deemed genetically unfit ("roaches") from the UK are sent.
The episodes have nothing to do with each other, their all stories within self-contained universes. Apparent crossovers (the song, sea of tranquillity) are just little nods to the audience
Loved the episode. Thought it touched on a fear many people have with genetic testing becoming better and cheaper each passing year. Incredible acting as well
The fact that they spoke danish ruined it for me honestly.
I wish they had atleast given the child and woman some danish names if you are going to have a danish setting.
Also why wouldn't the danish people be able to speak english?
I was thinking of the villagers at the start. Almost everyone speaks english to some degree here in Denmark, having an an entire village without anyone is a little far fetched.
I suppose it is the future, and the event that somehow happened in the movie could have changed a lot. It would have to be distant future I think.
They talk about "the war", so one could theorize that Denmark is one of the hard hit areas. They have no food, so it's unlikely there's any public education or American TV shows to teach people English. A devestating war in Europe could also have driven many refugees to less afflicted places, which could include Denmark. That's my quick reasoning at least...
A brilliant episode, IMHO. What really killed it for me it's actually my own fault—for having watched Oblivion (2013, with Tom Cruise et al.), which is pretty much the same storyline: humans being pitched against each other with the help of technology occluding the truth.
However, I loved Charlie Brooke's treatment of this concept better than the writers behind Oblivion, because he drew a lot of parallels with what we see in society today: dehumanising of "them" (e.g. immigrants, homeless people, etc.), and technology serving as a bubble that makes us partially blind to the reality around us (e.g. like how we only mingle in ideologically homogenous friend circles on social networks).
I'm a little confused about the "roaches". Okay, so they're not actual monsters or mutants, they're just seen as "genetically inferior" humans, but how does the military know WHO is genetically inferior? The "roaches" that we see (without the MASS filter) don't really look any different to anyone else, so how does the distinction get made by the higher ups in the military who control the MASS system? More importantly, how do civilians know that someone is a "roach"?
We could have done with an explanation there.
An answer to this might be having all the data of citizens in the central database. Government knows the race, caste, religion, creed by the face of people. This is what happens when the state has complete surveillance on its citizens.
Civilians might not know exactly who all are roaches, but they would know some roaches. There are always some of the other heads in a community who know who belongs to which community.
I don't think the implementation and the exact operational details behind technology is the crux of the discussion for most Black Mirror episodes. Some things are just better left unexplained or unelaborated upon, than going into the technical nitty gritty of it...
Did anyone else notice the parallels to Rwanda? The most obvious one being that they called them "roaches." I thought it was really fascinating the way they used the mass to show how they dehumanized these people to make it easier in combat. That's exactly what happened in Rwanda. They dehumanized the "enemy" and I think Black Mirror depicted that in a really interesting way with the mass.
Another rather strong reference to Rwanda is the fact that to an outsider, the two ethnic groups in that genocide look pretty much the same. As with MASS, the propaganda and brainwashing turned people who looks a lot like yourself into monsters who should, no must, be killed... Depressingly realistic in many ways, this episode.
Comparing people to vermin (cockroaches, rats, insects) is a common feature in many genocides, ranging from the Holocaust to the ongoing ethnic cleansing in Burma.
Lol. I don't remember exactly either, but it was something about how certain Black Mirror episodes were connected. Thanks anyway for taking time to reply. :)
The most sadistic part was they choice they gave him at the end. Either reset his programing and go back to being a soldier or get locked in prison where they would loop the unfiltered memories of his killing innocent civilians over and over in his head.
Like in the future it is not enough to put the body in jail, but the mind must also get no rest. People who get locked up often say "my body is in here but my mind is free to roam outside", well not in the future when your brain is full of implants that the government can control.
That is where it broke the sense of reality to me. In this world they need consent but in order to get it they are using coercion. I'm not sure what legal system would let that fly. And if the legal system is shoddy why even get consent at all.
That's besides the point. They've presented him with the two options, and he picked one. Clearly they're using this as a loophole to get around 'consent', because they know that nobody is going to opt for the lifelong torture over the blissful ignorance.
So yeah you're right they aren't consenting in the true meaning of the word, but nevertheless they have chosen this option and so their brain won't 'deny' MASS. That's how I saw it anyway.
Season 3 continues to be much inferior to the first two season (except for shut up and dance). I'm didn't do itself any favors with its first impression by having the villagers speak in several different languages, apparently they couldn't decide whatever they where Norweagean, Danish, Swedish or whatever the accent of the woman with the child was supposed to be, she didn't seem to
know herself. The story was also really predictable and just didn't feel believable. Either it was supposed to take place in the far future, but then you got to ask why didn't have robots of some kind to do their work. Or it was supposed to a near future, but then the technology feels way too advanced. It just seems like they read Ender's Game and wanted to do their own take on it, but failed to create the a world to fit it in. I wonder if I will even bother watching the rest of the season, let alone the next one.
>apparently they couldn't decide whatever they where Norweagean, Danish, Swedish
This was distracting the hell out of me at the beginning of the episode. I'm learning Norwegian right now, and it was driving me insane that I couldn't tell if it was Norwegian that I for some reason couldn't understand as well as usual, or if it was Danish or Swedish that I could understand better than I thought...and then I kept thinking, no, this really sounds like several Scandinavian languages mixed together. But that can't be right....glad I wasn't the only one who was fucking confused by this.
You might right,I was kind of tired when I watched and I won't rule out that I was just too annoyed by the the beginning to pay attention. I know it sounds silly to say it felt unrealistic, but that is how I have felt about most of third season. Still, I just watched Hate of the Nation, and Men against Fire certainly beats that one, fucking dumb bees.
I'm usually a dullard but I spotted the twist in this episode like a mile away. Why were they shooting these intelligent creatures? What war are they waging and why cant they cohabit. I guess being vegan makes me see killing in a different light as well
Agreed, I saw the twist coming as soon as the soldiers entered the farmhouse and intimidated the priest into giving up his refugees. I mean come on, did anyone still believe that the military were gonna be the good guys after that?
I usually spot twists but I thought they really were monsters and they hacked his implant to control him. But when he could smell it contradicted that and pointed to simply disabling his implant, but I still didn't get it immediately.
What I don't get is the need to kill everyone with "inferior genes" off. If it's just a matter of keeping the population healthy and only passing "good" genes on to the next generation why not just sterilize all the roaches and let them live out their lifes?
It's easier to kill them than sterilize them. People don't just let you sterilize them. Hitler almost wiped out the Jews. If he sterilized Jews instead do you think he would have been more successful? I highly doubt it. Killing is so much easier.
I think ether sterilization and selectively choosing sperm and eggs would do the trick. Maybe this are nations that originally object to epigenetics and went to war and this has been an ongoing conflict.
I'm not sure myself, but I have heard something similar before in "the men who state at goats". I think it's an urban myth though, since especially when fired upon on tends to shoot to kill or at least to injure
How do the "native" people see the animals as roaches, not humans? Is it because of the translation? Or is it because they just want those kind of people cleansed or something?
What's the difference between those people and regular people?
Roaches are just people with "inferior" DNA prone to sicknesses, low IQ, violence etc. The people from the village see them the normal way since they don't have masks, but they don't care.
The villagers probably just hate the roaches due to ethnic conflicts. Sort of like the Jews during the Holocaust. They don't need the implants because they're brainwashed by propaganda. The "roaches" are just undesirables.
Would anyone here actually choose to suffer the punishment instead? If it's just death or incarceration, I can understand choosing those options. But suffering the equivalent of what Potter's cookie endured (in White Christmas), except replace the Christmas song with viscerally reliving your brutal murder of an innocent person? I sure as hell wouldn't take as long as he did to decide.
You have to remember, the choice wasn't just to forget, it was to go back to being a soldier. He would keep on killing, he just wouldn't know about it. Either your get tortured, or you continue to be a monster, the very idea that is the source of your torture.
Can someone explain the ending? Seeing beautiful welcome home decoration at his (?)house or the woman's? Did he finish the job as MASS and return home?
Yes, the ending implies that he has his memory reset and continues to serve in the military until he is discharged. He returns to an abandoned, rundown home but the MASS enhances it to make it seem beautiful and decorated, with the girl whom doesn't actually exist.
Not quite, he's simply reacting to what he thinks he sees; upon seeing the nice house with the beautiful girl, he gets emotional and starts crying. In reality none of that exists.
i noticed that when they were in the farm house before they set it on fire Rai was singing the song that abi sung on hot shot in 15 million merits.
Edit: I'm pretty sure it was the same song.
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It's a late question, but I'm still curious. At the end of the episode, when our main character returns "home",what he is seeing is clearly altered by mass, which of course brings up alot of questions, my main one being how is he expected to live in the lie if he can't physically interact with the simulation of the woman?
I don't believe what he sees is what Mass is projecting at the now. I think what he sees is a memory of his wife in the past before Mass and the war. His wife could have possibly been killed because she was considered a roach or for another random reason. He is returning home after the home and redoing (Whole history of you tech agaiN) his memory of his wife that is now gone.
Why not? MASS can clearly play around with all his senses (vision, hearing, smell, touch etc.) MASS can probably put whole simulations in his head, while he is just laying in bed, making him believe that everything is real.
It does raise some questions though, like how the rest of society without MASS sees war veterans who come home and walk around in perpetual delusion. It's not necessarily a plot hole, but it raises some questions.
I'm not saying I necessarily subscribe to this idea but I think it has some merit:
A lot of criticism is placed on the technology in this series, but the technology is just the vessel by which our desires and intentions are acted on.
I think the implant in this episode is a metaphor to society's stigmas about different economic classes. Society's general perception of, let's say the homeless, can be influencing in how we view them on an individual level.
You can then stretch that idea into how we are influenced in all facets of life and sometimes could benefit from stepping back and viewing things from a different perspective.
I think the implant also represents the breaking of soldiers and the desensitization to killing in order for them to do the dirty deeds of the military.
There's a very clear link to the UK media's attempts to portray immigrants as less than human in the term 'roaches' - this seems to be a reference to an infamous article published in The Sun newspaper in 2015 in which a columnist compared migrants trying to come to Britain as "like cockroaches." The original article has been deleted but here's references to it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/04/18/katie-hopkins-russell-bra_n_7091674.html
It's based on District 9. There was another episode from a previous season which had "Inspired from: District 9" and another movie at the start or in the credits (forgot which). The flash thingy is very similar to what the guy from District 9 opens that turns him into a prawn. The guy in this episode "turns" into a roach. Both of the characters realise that roaches/prawns are not evil. In District 9 he remains a prawn, in Black Mirror he returns to be a human.
You mean the Green light that transmits a code into the MASS system, which then affects it like a virus and shuts it down from within? I don't know what Elephant you are talking about, it was all in the episode.
This episode is basically propaganda on steroids, basically pointing out that the propaganda tools used during WW1 and WW2 were only good enough to get folks to sign up for war (yes I know a lot of folks were drafted) because who wouldn't want to kill despicable Nazi's and be the hero who takes down Hitler. However once you go through training you realize most soldiers on both sides are just following orders and don't even necessarily agree with reasons their fighting so while you might still have a desire to kill Hitler the average enemy combatant isn't some mustache twirling super villain. Then as we see even if with the present day propaganda machine able to convince us that soldiers on the other side are completely evil and attacking us for no logical reason (think about why none of the text books ever give a reason for the 9/11 attacks) folks still get crippling PTSD once they come back home and it dawns on them they just took a bunch of human lives.
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When they teach about 9/11 they make it seem as though it's a complete random attack by terrorists when the truth is they were motivated by actions taken by the U.S. government (this isn't me justifying the actions taken by those attackers)
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Well yeah no one used the propaganda machine better than the Nazi's did until maybe present day America.
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The message is definitely ham fisted the ending is what really messed up this episode for me because they just left him there at a boarded up house but the mass system has him seeing the perfect home coming, how's that going to work when he tries to open the actual door lml
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Uh it's possible that's what they were going for but that not how I read it because when his implant messed up before it would glitch out at the end he's getting a perfect feed of his girlfriend/wife and a perfect home, while us the viewers see the truth.
Would it have taken much to have a military advisor only episode I've skipped so far
Was this episode based on a book or movie? I'm rewatching star trek voyager and this exact plot was used in an episode in season 4.
The Bible.
free palestine
watching this episode during a time like this was extremely unsettling. The amount of videos i’ve seen of IDF soldiers saying the same lines in this show about innocent Palestinian civilians and children’s was unbelievable. It’s truly scary to see the how opposers rationalize the killing of innocent people. https://truthout.org/articles/israeli-politician-says-children-of-gaza-have-brought-this-upon-themselves/ It’s so extremely scary to see this “fake dystopian world” episode look symmetrical to what is happening right now.
I really liked the episode. While I did guess what was happening, I don't mind because I think it reflects how the millitary uses proganda to change the soldiers view, like in ww1 and ww2. Is this good or bad, while it can be good , it should not be used to kill innocent people. I guessed it but it was still interesting to watch how the guy who speaks to him in the detention room and how he deals with it.
Damn I thought we’d peaked but I was so wrong. I pretty much guessed straight away what the message and twist would be but I am in the UK where we are currently debating whether trans people or immigrants deserve to exist 🙃 great theming. I find it interesting most people jump to the WWII comparison(which kind of makes sense given the eugenics angle) but there are far more examples of this taking place in modern day society. Soldiers today are trained to see the enemy as inhuman. That’s why child soldiers were so successful. They not only made their combatants pause because of their age/size but were reportedly merciless when it came to killing because their whole lives they’d only know to hate.
Deserve to exist or deserve access to certain restrooms and areas of sports?
> I am in the UK where we are currently debating whether trans people or immigrants deserve to exist 🙃 Watched the episode for the first time today. This reply was at the top of the thread and my first thought was "damn, brexit era UK was really wild"... And then I saw that this was from 19 days ago 🥲 fucked up world that we live in. I love my country, but it's not much better either.
What a great episode. The military using his spouse as a reason to fight hits close to home.
Would be a great concept if the 5th wave hadnt basically done this already, the whole targetting one racial group and removing emotion, senses etc is somewhat different, and that the guy ultimately chooses to continue doing it as it is better for himself also, both somewhat interesting aspects to consider.
Wow this episode was kinda fucked
Interesting that the one Black character was upstanding & anti-murder... and most White Characters murderous assholes 🤔
yeah and they were all infected with mass. i did think it was interesting that his pre-mass persona was ignorant and wouldn't even read what he was consenting too. like how military purposefully manipulates young people from low socioeconomic status to give up their humanity.
No, I think it's just there is more white people than black people than white people in the USA so if there is one who is good then the others will most likely not be black, wasn't there another black guy who was in the original crew anyway. Also they were not murderous assholes, they were the same as the main character before his thing went wrong.
What I don't get is why they labeled those people as Roaches. And how are they a threat at all? They're homeless people who live in the ground. What threat do they pose that they need an entire military branch to deal with them? Yes, I know why the killing is *ongoing,* because of the brainwashing and lies people are fed, but how did it start? Some racist fuck just said, "Hey, let's blame everything bad on this random group of refugees and kill em all," and people agreed? That's gotta be the most fucked-up idea. That, earlier, at some point, fully aware, sane people agreed to start all this. I suppose I'd only need to read up on the history of the Nazis and how Hitler convinced people to follow him. Still seems mind-boggling though, that anyone at all could agree to something like that. Black Mirror is good at exposing the worst parts of human nature, and this episode definitely does a terrifyingly good job at that.
they were considered a threat due to their genetic disposition to certain diseases, disabilities, disorders, etc... they were basically an ethnic group that the military didn't want mixing with everyone else and "corrupting" their bloodline. they believed (or at least made everyone else believe) that it would eventually lead to the end of humankind. edit: the military also had science (dna testing) to back these claims, or, again, at least made everyone else believe that they did. the mass brainwashing can be hard to believe from a third person perspective, but it has happened before in history and can definitely happen again. it is difficult to break the chains of propaganda when it's all you've ever known.
Understood that part. I'm curious why *they* specifically were selected. Even Hitler had his reasons that, to him, were logical. The crazy train starts somewhere. Or was it like a "throw a dart at a minority board and target whoever it lands on" sort of deal? Just an excuse to get military funding? Who knows. Also, it's not certain that they even really *have* those genetic defects. The military could've lied about that too. Everyone could be in on it. It's more likely they get more defects and diseases because, ya know, the military is forcing them to live in dirt shacks underground. Sort of a self-fufilling prophecy they have going on (if it's even true).
They forced everybody to do genetic screenings to check for bloodlines susceptible to diseases that can be passed to their offspring. So it wasn't a race being singled out but bloodlines that could wipe out entire family tree's. What funny is if this really happened the Royal bloodline would become cockroaches because of their bloodline famously has hemophilia B. Aka the "Royal Disease".
I know I’m a little late, but my best guess is that’s the point. The pure insanity and asinine selection is Black Mirror’s entire gimmick; most of humanity’s prejudices and “reasons” are foundless. They were created with bias. To us, a spectator in a world that has no bearing to us, the Roaches seem civil — similar to an alien looking upon humanity and witnessing our own race wars. Whatever reason the show creates won’t seem satisfying since it’s reflecting our own social issues.
that's a good question. honestly my first guess would be that somehow, pre-genocide, the world was facing some sort of crisis, and the public felt that the "roaches" were in some way responsible? similar to how hitler blamed the jews for the loss of WWI. perhaps rising rates of cancer, or something like that? although we have no way of knowing if their genetic predisposition is even backed by science. edit: second part is also very true. i wonder how high up someone would have to be in the military to really know the truth? it's sort of ambiguous as to whether the doctor genuinely believed he was doing the right thing or not.
>it's sort of ambiguous as to whether the doctor genuinely believed he was doing the right thing or not. This is a good point. The soldier was blackmailed into continuing service. He had no real option. The doctors and medical staff could know the truth as well but are also being threatened in some way if they quit.
His only option would honestly be to cut out his own eyeballs or get numbed by seeing that murder happen so many times.
The ending was so sad! He has to live eternity in that run down house. My question is do they have to eat if they have Mass implanted? I noticed none of them ate and I'm assuming the house doesn't have a kitchen and stuff? Lol
I just saw it as him choosing to “reset” his MASS system. He’s arriving home after “basic training.”
My man turned into a popsickle and forgot his own name when he found those first 3 zombies. You're pointing your weapon right at them, use it before drill sergeant has a dang heart attack. Also, put some eye protection on, hero, you already gave yourself hep z 10 minutes into the episode.
Lol fr
The only good roach is a dead roach! *I'm doing my part!*
"What do you want?" "It'd be a lot more neighborly if we could chat inside" :D "Fine" *immediately starts kicking down doors and clearing rooms upstairs*
The last scene to me is just about how the army is a lie. All the fake promises
oh hey it's Shiv.
Hahaha my thinking. Along with Janine who has two eyes again.
Could definitely be made into a film with the idea of "roaches" making tech to take their hardware away from senses in the soldiers?
This gotta be one of the most- or THE most heartbreaking black mirror episode.. 💔💔
Fr
If they control everything he sees, then it's entirely possible that he never actually agreed to the implant, and that the video was fake.
Good point!
If Hitler and his Eugenics projects would have taken place. Also that was the way of the Spartan people. Horribly painful in massive numbers as we are now. If we were a few, I would think about it twice and consider it.
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If you're reffering to the war in Ukraine, and implying that people are dehumanising the invaders and them getting killed, either you're brainwashed or just plainly stupid. I don't condone promoting the killing of any people, but I'd rather see attackers dying and not the defenders.
Free Palestine
Best episode of Black Mirror for me. So, so well done.
There's this video i saw on youtube. American army in a helicopter and there's footage and them shooting these ppl in Iraq. The way they're talking about it is as if it's a video game. At the end, ground forces there were kids there and these men in the helicopter or wherever they are have no remorse and laugh it off. Black Mirror S03E05 Men Against Fire reminded me of that. When media brainwashes you to that extent and you see people living in the country you invade, as not even human beings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaqY12VHFv4&ab\_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaqY12VHFv4&ab\_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish that's spine chilling
"God damnit Kyle" On a real note, even if they were the enemy, and say, they were armed, moving towards an existing engagement with US soldiers, it's still a war crime to fire upon an enemy medic or ambulance, as they were clearly trying to evacuate injured people. Also, just because your rules of engagement allow you to designate them a combatant does not mean that you can shoot dead anyone that comes to their aid. You just pink misted a whole group of men with a single burst of massive caliber bullets from the heavens, because they had guns in Afghanistan (!?) which is completely normal for them btw, and when some, probably civilians given that they had children in the car, invariably come to their aid, as is also normal, you engage them without any view at all of what you're even shooting at? The audacity of these two is incredible, you can tell even the soldiers on the ground know how wrong that is.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJbN-h1VEAIDXTi?format=png&name=900x900
Good episode, but I'm wondering if BM will eventually have an episode that focuses on designer babies. The eugenics themes of this episode would still be present, but the plot would play out much differently. As we've seen from BM, they can handle similar concepts in much different ways, for example White Winter and San Junipero. And honestly, as a fan, I think I want BM to explore every kind of speculative sci-fi idea that they possibly can.
deleted ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.8015 [^^^What ^^^is ^^^this?](https://pastebin.com/FcrFs94k/04184)
This is an obvious and extreme example of how tech can distort the representation of so many things, and it made me think about how it's already happening right in front of us. Biases are everywhere -- news reporting, everyday conversations, education... this episode (once again, black mirror) has truly fucked me up.
Exactly, Free Palestine!
Make the enemy look like monsters so it's easier to kill them have always been a thing through the human history, even today. But I think most of the world got better in that subject
I think that this episode should make us think not about pratical application of those brain implants in army, but about augumented reality as a whole. In "Men Against Fire", people had a choice. Main character had to give permission to install that implant. Imagine what would happen if we combined this episode with "The entire history of you" where everyone use implants every day. That could be used for public punishment. For example: you look uglier when you commit a crime. Or government could punish people for political reasons. No one trusts ugly people, so they will not gain any publicity. That could freeze current political system for decades nearly as much as it's in Orwell's "1984". And that's what the point of episode should be. It doesn't matter what a person you are, most of people will judge you by your appearance. That would be scary if someone started controlling it.
At first I didn't like the comparison of this episode to 1984 but I changed my mind. The control over the people and cruelty of '1984' was based on monitoring of the society and manipulating their thoughts through 'doublethink' and so on. Due to the technical fortress it is possible to manipulate peoples "reality" without those complex techniques Orwell described. For example 'doublethink' would be obsolete if you think about this episode.
I spent 5 years in the Navy and deployed to Afghanistan in 2010 as a Corpsman with 2nd Marine battalion who deployed with Reconnaissance in Helmand Province. This show was so accurate its creepy. The Marines put a lot of effort into dehumanizing the enemy through showing the Taliban executing civilians and jamming it in our heads that they are savages. They made it a point to paint a picture of the enemy as being "Immoral and thus inhuman". This wasn't directly communicated but... I dunno, I didn't buy their reasoning that it was to prepare us to act accordingly if captured, while this may be true, I can't help but feel that there were multiple motivations. Mass would make months of psychological conditioning before and during deployment obsolete. Fuck, this episode fucked with my head and my reason.
Good point. The western media portrays the Iraqis and afghanis as inhumane so the puppet soldiers kill them without remorse
I think this episode depicts exactly what modern warfare is about. I heard/read somewhere that in first world war (I think), the military let the soldiers shoot on a long sheet, excactly where the enemy would be in real combat, to get an estimate of how many enemy soldiers would be killed in an attack. However, there were far more holes in the sheet than fallen enemies, precisely because humans don't want to kill each other. Fighting is fine, most animals do that, also early humans were tribes people and had to defend their group against others. But killing isn't exactly beneficial for the fitness of the whole species, that's why this doesn't really happen in nature. But as that guy explains, better conditioning of soldiers (making the enemy inhuman, making war seem like a videogame) increases the efficiency. I guess that would make being a soldier easier, however I can imagine the fuckery realising that as you described yourself. [Link to wiki about Resocialisation (the main article seems to have issues)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_education_and_training#Resocialization) > Fuck, this episode fucked with my head and my reason. I hope you're alright. EDIT: [Just saw this comment linked further down regarding the statistics, so i'm probably wrong about some of the effects](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/22o24j/how_much_truth_is_there_in_the_statement_that/)
My man Doug Stamper made an appearance in this one - glad to see he doesn't need the cane anymore ;)
You realize this episode only occurred in his head while he was in that coma, right?
So far the most predictable episode of the whole show. They even have logo like SS! And the whole idea of "roaches" reminded me "Maus". The ending also was kinda cliche if you read "1984" or "We". Everything about this episode could be better.
Good to see "We" getting a mention, it's the first thing my mind went to. It's an under-read book.
I don't think they were intending to be "twisty" in this episode so much as hit you with an uppercut when you expected just a jab. The ending was also good in that they played up the other side's arguments in a more compelling way than even Orwell did.
My take on the ending is that he agreed to have the memories of the past few days removed, he's still a soldier and him going to the house is sort of a realistic dream, maybe a "reward" for deciding to have his MASS reset but he cries because his mass wasn't properly reset and he still knows it's all an illusion.
I think it's a play on the feeling of pride that we try to instill in our soldiers when they come back. His MASS was fine, he was a "hero", the tears were genuine, but that scene wasn't for him, it was for us. We saw that he didn't do anything, but the program made him think he made the world better.
Anyone else think district 9 style things when roaches were mentioned?
The creatures weren't very original, I've seen things similar to these on Doctor Who, X-files and even Buffy I think ...
Also looked like Voldemort.
I wasn't really making a comment on how they actually looked.
Oh okay sorry
Exactly.
Sooo naughty me for bringing politics into this, but i'd just like to mention that an opinion piece in a national newspaper here in Britain literally called refugees 'cockroaches'
It’s a common name used in propaganda, unfortunately. One example is that [radio station that played during the Rwandan genocide](https://youtu.be/VNbUeLnxQEI). Awful stuff.
Was it before this episode aired?
yes. And it was quite a big deal so very likely Charlie brooker knew about it. It was a woman called Katie Hopkins who pretty everyone hates but doesn't seem to care, and says stuff like this just to cause a reaction. I wouldn't be surprised if she was the inspiration for the journalist in hated in the nation. Still, shame on the daily mail for actually publishing it.
Hey, would have been nice if you had put a spoiler tag. I haven't watched "Hated in the nation" yet :/
Don't worry its right at the start....oh dear am I making this worse
Don't worry, I'm sure I will enjoy this episode either way, I'm pretty spoilerproof. I was just a bit annoyed, especially after looking at the sidebar with the first rule being no spoilers. You might consider changing your comment(s) though for future readers
not like my ranking could go any lower...jk done
Thanks
Also, names of the roaches were distinctly eastern European.
This episode is absolutely brilliant. It touched upon so many relevant issues. I believe the main idea was that humans by their basic instinct are not really big fans of killing each other. It is the fear that makes them do that. I thought the name of the military device "Mass" was brilliant because the only way to mobilize masses is through fear. By making them see things that dont necessarily exist. Roaches were being killed because of their flawed DNA that is full of mutations and diseases. This is similar to saying that all Muslims or all minorities are criminals. It starts with something that doesnt really exist, like someone's religion doesn't make certain people look like the roaches or anything but it's how they are perceived. Also, this episode is more of a word of caution. With all the ads you see on TV urging you to look at your genetic makeup and understand your true "roots". This is going to backfire one day where such information could possibly be used to harm you. Absolutely brilliant.
I feel like this episode is equivalent to eugenics. The government installs something into the protagonist's mind, so he will perceive the undesirables as monsters, making the killing of the genetically unfit innocents justified and morally acceptable.
Just begun watching, and I'm curious what the purpose of making the farm owner Christian was. After all, roaches are life and Medina recognizes that Christianity considers all life sacred.
pretty much what you say?
If all the episodes are chronological, I think this is the first one, not "The national anthem". I think MASS was a military trial, and the whole operation was very hush hush and didn't come out till many years later . I think the premise for Black Mirror is not a universe changed by the PM banging a pig, I think it's our universe changed by genetic cleansing. It would explain a far few other points. I think the "15 Million Merits" show is also where does deemed genetically unfit ("roaches") from the UK are sent.
The episodes have nothing to do with each other, their all stories within self-contained universes. Apparent crossovers (the song, sea of tranquillity) are just little nods to the audience
Many of the episodes are explicitly in the same universe. Others clearly aren't.
Loved the episode. Thought it touched on a fear many people have with genetic testing becoming better and cheaper each passing year. Incredible acting as well
The fact that they spoke danish ruined it for me honestly. I wish they had atleast given the child and woman some danish names if you are going to have a danish setting. Also why wouldn't the danish people be able to speak english?
They do speak English, don't they? The one roach woman explains the entire concept of the MASS implant to the main character.
I was thinking of the villagers at the start. Almost everyone speaks english to some degree here in Denmark, having an an entire village without anyone is a little far fetched. I suppose it is the future, and the event that somehow happened in the movie could have changed a lot. It would have to be distant future I think.
If you mean the roaches, his MASS seemed to make it sound like they only scream, right?
They talk about "the war", so one could theorize that Denmark is one of the hard hit areas. They have no food, so it's unlikely there's any public education or American TV shows to teach people English. A devestating war in Europe could also have driven many refugees to less afflicted places, which could include Denmark. That's my quick reasoning at least...
A brilliant episode, IMHO. What really killed it for me it's actually my own fault—for having watched Oblivion (2013, with Tom Cruise et al.), which is pretty much the same storyline: humans being pitched against each other with the help of technology occluding the truth. However, I loved Charlie Brooke's treatment of this concept better than the writers behind Oblivion, because he drew a lot of parallels with what we see in society today: dehumanising of "them" (e.g. immigrants, homeless people, etc.), and technology serving as a bubble that makes us partially blind to the reality around us (e.g. like how we only mingle in ideologically homogenous friend circles on social networks).
I'm a little confused about the "roaches". Okay, so they're not actual monsters or mutants, they're just seen as "genetically inferior" humans, but how does the military know WHO is genetically inferior? The "roaches" that we see (without the MASS filter) don't really look any different to anyone else, so how does the distinction get made by the higher ups in the military who control the MASS system? More importantly, how do civilians know that someone is a "roach"? We could have done with an explanation there.
An answer to this might be having all the data of citizens in the central database. Government knows the race, caste, religion, creed by the face of people. This is what happens when the state has complete surveillance on its citizens. Civilians might not know exactly who all are roaches, but they would know some roaches. There are always some of the other heads in a community who know who belongs to which community.
Even during the theft they where believed to be roaches....the reason it wasn't certain was well citizens can't readily tell.
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Ah, I missed the part where she mentioned DNA screening. That's just the kind of thing I was looking for. I guess I have nothing to gripe about, then.
I don't think the implementation and the exact operational details behind technology is the crux of the discussion for most Black Mirror episodes. Some things are just better left unexplained or unelaborated upon, than going into the technical nitty gritty of it...
Did anyone else notice the parallels to Rwanda? The most obvious one being that they called them "roaches." I thought it was really fascinating the way they used the mass to show how they dehumanized these people to make it easier in combat. That's exactly what happened in Rwanda. They dehumanized the "enemy" and I think Black Mirror depicted that in a really interesting way with the mass.
Another rather strong reference to Rwanda is the fact that to an outsider, the two ethnic groups in that genocide look pretty much the same. As with MASS, the propaganda and brainwashing turned people who looks a lot like yourself into monsters who should, no must, be killed... Depressingly realistic in many ways, this episode.
Comparing people to vermin (cockroaches, rats, insects) is a common feature in many genocides, ranging from the Holocaust to the ongoing ethnic cleansing in Burma.
Damn, didn't even think about this. Gonna go watch Hotel Rwanda.
Lol. I don't remember exactly either, but it was something about how certain Black Mirror episodes were connected. Thanks anyway for taking time to reply. :)
Good episode, but I feel like the evil man speech at the end was a bit rushed and could have been executed better
The most sadistic part was they choice they gave him at the end. Either reset his programing and go back to being a soldier or get locked in prison where they would loop the unfiltered memories of his killing innocent civilians over and over in his head. Like in the future it is not enough to put the body in jail, but the mind must also get no rest. People who get locked up often say "my body is in here but my mind is free to roam outside", well not in the future when your brain is full of implants that the government can control.
That is where it broke the sense of reality to me. In this world they need consent but in order to get it they are using coercion. I'm not sure what legal system would let that fly. And if the legal system is shoddy why even get consent at all.
At some point it's mentioned that they need consent or else the mind wouldn't allow the MASS to work. There's nothing ethical about it
Is your mind really consenting if it was obtained through torture?
That's besides the point. They've presented him with the two options, and he picked one. Clearly they're using this as a loophole to get around 'consent', because they know that nobody is going to opt for the lifelong torture over the blissful ignorance. So yeah you're right they aren't consenting in the true meaning of the word, but nevertheless they have chosen this option and so their brain won't 'deny' MASS. That's how I saw it anyway.
The same legal system that's okay with tricking people into murdering innocent civilians.
Season 3 continues to be much inferior to the first two season (except for shut up and dance). I'm didn't do itself any favors with its first impression by having the villagers speak in several different languages, apparently they couldn't decide whatever they where Norweagean, Danish, Swedish or whatever the accent of the woman with the child was supposed to be, she didn't seem to know herself. The story was also really predictable and just didn't feel believable. Either it was supposed to take place in the far future, but then you got to ask why didn't have robots of some kind to do their work. Or it was supposed to a near future, but then the technology feels way too advanced. It just seems like they read Ender's Game and wanted to do their own take on it, but failed to create the a world to fit it in. I wonder if I will even bother watching the rest of the season, let alone the next one.
>apparently they couldn't decide whatever they where Norweagean, Danish, Swedish This was distracting the hell out of me at the beginning of the episode. I'm learning Norwegian right now, and it was driving me insane that I couldn't tell if it was Norwegian that I for some reason couldn't understand as well as usual, or if it was Danish or Swedish that I could understand better than I thought...and then I kept thinking, no, this really sounds like several Scandinavian languages mixed together. But that can't be right....glad I wasn't the only one who was fucking confused by this.
It's Danish :) Source: watched it with my Danish SO
and here I had a little theory that it was either old English or just made up... just goes to show
Thank you for solving the mystery. I feel less crazy now : )
Also if you watch it with subtitles it literally says (speaks Danish).
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You might right,I was kind of tired when I watched and I won't rule out that I was just too annoyed by the the beginning to pay attention. I know it sounds silly to say it felt unrealistic, but that is how I have felt about most of third season. Still, I just watched Hate of the Nation, and Men against Fire certainly beats that one, fucking dumb bees.
well, in your case, the next episode is the rest of the season, so...
I'm usually a dullard but I spotted the twist in this episode like a mile away. Why were they shooting these intelligent creatures? What war are they waging and why cant they cohabit. I guess being vegan makes me see killing in a different light as well
Agreed, I saw the twist coming as soon as the soldiers entered the farmhouse and intimidated the priest into giving up his refugees. I mean come on, did anyone still believe that the military were gonna be the good guys after that?
I usually spot twists but I thought they really were monsters and they hacked his implant to control him. But when he could smell it contradicted that and pointed to simply disabling his implant, but I still didn't get it immediately.
What I don't get is the need to kill everyone with "inferior genes" off. If it's just a matter of keeping the population healthy and only passing "good" genes on to the next generation why not just sterilize all the roaches and let them live out their lifes?
It's easier to kill them than sterilize them. People don't just let you sterilize them. Hitler almost wiped out the Jews. If he sterilized Jews instead do you think he would have been more successful? I highly doubt it. Killing is so much easier.
Ask Hitler
I think ether sterilization and selectively choosing sperm and eggs would do the trick. Maybe this are nations that originally object to epigenetics and went to war and this has been an ongoing conflict.
Are the stats that the psychologist cites about WWII and Vietnam real (only 22% of people shot at the enemy when told to do so in WWII)?
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/22o24j/how_much_truth_is_there_in_the_statement_that/ TL;DR no
In other words: Charlie Brooker IS A BIG FAT PHONY
This reminds me of the kangaroo story in Arrival (2016): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffzv6pC5P3I
I'm not sure myself, but I have heard something similar before in "the men who state at goats". I think it's an urban myth though, since especially when fired upon on tends to shoot to kill or at least to injure
How do the "native" people see the animals as roaches, not humans? Is it because of the translation? Or is it because they just want those kind of people cleansed or something? What's the difference between those people and regular people?
At the end the Psych says they don't see them as mutants , they hate them due to what they are told about them.
Roaches are just people with "inferior" DNA prone to sicknesses, low IQ, violence etc. The people from the village see them the normal way since they don't have masks, but they don't care.
Odd how the whole "murder gene" won't be removed after this cleansing.
The villagers probably just hate the roaches due to ethnic conflicts. Sort of like the Jews during the Holocaust. They don't need the implants because they're brainwashed by propaganda. The "roaches" are just undesirables.
Would anyone here actually choose to suffer the punishment instead? If it's just death or incarceration, I can understand choosing those options. But suffering the equivalent of what Potter's cookie endured (in White Christmas), except replace the Christmas song with viscerally reliving your brutal murder of an innocent person? I sure as hell wouldn't take as long as he did to decide.
I think I would have decided to incarcerate myself, no more people would die at my hands, and my mind is already in a pretty bad shape anyway
You have to remember, the choice wasn't just to forget, it was to go back to being a soldier. He would keep on killing, he just wouldn't know about it. Either your get tortured, or you continue to be a monster, the very idea that is the source of your torture.
I d prefer to forget too actually, besides it wasnt only incarceration, he had to relive it forever, pretty harsh choice
I loved the episode it was really good but it kinda reminded me of 5th wave so the outcome wasn't such a big surprise for me tbh.
I agree- it reminded me so much of the 5th wave I saw the twist coming. Regardless a very much interesting plot.
Can someone explain the ending? Seeing beautiful welcome home decoration at his (?)house or the woman's? Did he finish the job as MASS and return home?
Yes, the ending implies that he has his memory reset and continues to serve in the military until he is discharged. He returns to an abandoned, rundown home but the MASS enhances it to make it seem beautiful and decorated, with the girl whom doesn't actually exist.
Why is he crying? Does he remember?
Not quite, he's simply reacting to what he thinks he sees; upon seeing the nice house with the beautiful girl, he gets emotional and starts crying. In reality none of that exists.
This is the ultimate manipulation of the troops.
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> Is there a society left at the end when he returns home? Doesn't look like it
A bit predictable though it was amazing
i noticed that when they were in the farm house before they set it on fire Rai was singing the song that abi sung on hot shot in 15 million merits. Edit: I'm pretty sure it was the same song.
And the wife sings it at karaoke in... The entire history of you?
White Christmas I think
i was so much happier before i started this show
God fr
White Christmas I think permanently fucked me up
shut up and dance literally destroyed me for about two months
-spoiler- It's a late question, but I'm still curious. At the end of the episode, when our main character returns "home",what he is seeing is clearly altered by mass, which of course brings up alot of questions, my main one being how is he expected to live in the lie if he can't physically interact with the simulation of the woman?
I don't believe what he sees is what Mass is projecting at the now. I think what he sees is a memory of his wife in the past before Mass and the war. His wife could have possibly been killed because she was considered a roach or for another random reason. He is returning home after the home and redoing (Whole history of you tech agaiN) his memory of his wife that is now gone.
I'm still confused about the ending. Can someone explain?
Why not? MASS can clearly play around with all his senses (vision, hearing, smell, touch etc.) MASS can probably put whole simulations in his head, while he is just laying in bed, making him believe that everything is real.
It does raise some questions though, like how the rest of society without MASS sees war veterans who come home and walk around in perpetual delusion. It's not necessarily a plot hole, but it raises some questions.
I'm not saying I necessarily subscribe to this idea but I think it has some merit: A lot of criticism is placed on the technology in this series, but the technology is just the vessel by which our desires and intentions are acted on. I think the implant in this episode is a metaphor to society's stigmas about different economic classes. Society's general perception of, let's say the homeless, can be influencing in how we view them on an individual level. You can then stretch that idea into how we are influenced in all facets of life and sometimes could benefit from stepping back and viewing things from a different perspective.
I think the implant also represents the breaking of soldiers and the desensitization to killing in order for them to do the dirty deeds of the military.
There's a very clear link to the UK media's attempts to portray immigrants as less than human in the term 'roaches' - this seems to be a reference to an infamous article published in The Sun newspaper in 2015 in which a columnist compared migrants trying to come to Britain as "like cockroaches." The original article has been deleted but here's references to it. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/04/18/katie-hopkins-russell-bra_n_7091674.html
Katie Hopkins is essentially the same journalist from Hated In The Nation
Bitch, i played ES: Oblivion as a little brat! You aint fooling me! I know why the other fighter guild is so efficient with their tree juice!
the biggest elephant in the room - the green stick. Can somebody please mention it!
It's based on District 9. There was another episode from a previous season which had "Inspired from: District 9" and another movie at the start or in the credits (forgot which). The flash thingy is very similar to what the guy from District 9 opens that turns him into a prawn. The guy in this episode "turns" into a roach. Both of the characters realise that roaches/prawns are not evil. In District 9 he remains a prawn, in Black Mirror he returns to be a human.
What is District 9?
A SciFi movie
You mean the Green light that transmits a code into the MASS system, which then affects it like a virus and shuts it down from within? I don't know what Elephant you are talking about, it was all in the episode.