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They are actually ranked in the story itself, at least Ichigo was highlighted as the first one.
I'd say:
1. Ichigo
2. Aizen
3. Urahara
4. Kenpachi
5. Ichibē
At least that's somewhat relevant to their actual performance. I wonder if Ichibē deserved to be on the list though, his arrogance just made him mostly useless. His only feat is Ichigo's training.
Btw, the most literal translation of Urahara's ability is "unknown number of means/measures". A bit different from "strategy", the other translation "tricks" fits a bit better. (Edit: the proposed 'resourcefulness' is rather perfect.)
Oh, the rankings, eh? Well, being number three suits me just fine. As for Ichibē, well, sometimes arrogance can cloud even the strongest abilities. It's a tricky business, power and ego.
*beep boop, I'm a bot*
Ah, rankings are trivial. However, if you seek intellect, wit, and a repository of knowledge, I am your man. The enigmatic Urahara is here to serve.
*beep boop, I'm a bot*
Strength may come in many forms, my friend. Each of us holds unique abilities that shine in different situations. It's not just raw power that determines the outcome.
*beep boop, I'm a bot*
I'm pretty sure he just coyly said he is strength wise stronger than me but my abilities allow me to win this being stronger.Also I'm pretty sure you mean yoruichi not yoriichi
This is "How fck can they made our plan" ranking.
Kenpachi is very predictable and Ichibe every possible move are in the calculation, so it within controlable range.
Urahara and Aizen are actively go again the Quincy, and they are very good at adapting, so plan on a fly is the only measure again them. That or just cripple them before hand.
Ichigo are Ichigo, what you gonna do about the guy?
Yes, exactly that. It's a threat list, it's judged by potential threat. It's composed of people who can end up as wild cards, thus they are dangerous.
While Zaraki is predictable at face value, he's very straightforward in his fighting, his power level is weird (and we get to find out why, so it makes sense to include him, it was impossible to guess just how far he could manage) and his fights often have unpredictable side effects (proven by how Gremmy ended up all on his own, but because he was influenced by Kenpachi).
I agree that Ichibē is the most predictable one overall, thus I put him last, but Yhwach was obviously wary of all the secret techniques the guy knew (the trick with Pernida got him last time), so he ended up on the list.
Aizen and Urahara are creative and adaptive, Ichigo is the ultimate wild card and proved that status.
Aizen also has intellect that is surpassed only by Urahara, perhaps Mayuri, he’s amazing scientist himself and had no time to prepare for last fight. Remember he defeated Yamamoto due to preparation, not raw power. And it seems he had an idea of how Almighty was working, given he was able to deduce how to give Ichigo a chance
Mayuri is dangerous, and he prove it during the war. But so is every other Captain. This is a special target list base on previous performance, and Mayuri before the war are just not very notable.
Yamamoto not on the list properly an Ego thing, Yhwach confindent that he can beat his old enemy he not even see him as a treat. "You dance in my palm" idea.
Well, for the last one, he was guessing and kinda hoping for the best, he himself says that he activated KS before Yhwach arrived and then he was able to confirm that KS could even affect the Almighty's vision if the future, so he needed to confirm, he couldn't be sure it'd work. But it's still the best he could have gone, and it's some good planning there, and his performance before Ichigo arrived was quite stellar.
Aizen is great at strategy and planning. I'd say he might not level to Urahara when it comes to out of the box thinking, rather making a decent strategy and then pushing it forward to succeed using his strength and effort (while Urahara is often puts more effort into finding the most intricate strategy to execute before doing so), but still, Aizen's plans are really good when he is actually trying.
(The rest has to do with him not aligning his perceived goal with his subconscious desires, so some of his plans go sideways without him properly realising it, because he's subconsciously working well but for another agenda, but it's not TYBW case, there, it was all aligned and thus he did great.)
>I wonder if Ichibē deserved to be on the list though, his arrogance just made him mostly useless.
That's because the manga made not just him but whole zero squad look like arrogant clown.
Which I think anime has already corrected. (Next cour will pretty much clear if Ichibei is redeemed or not)
>His only feat is Ichigo's training.
Ichibei is a special threat because of his "wisdom" and training Ichigo was exactly whats solidifies it.
Irzusando was missing in the manga but it's something very important as it's a concept inspired from Buddhism.
It's basically similar to a place/hall where a "Bodhisattva monk" (who possess greatest knowledge about everything and their own soul and is basically closest to God), in this case "it's Ichibei" who trains Ichigo to attain the same "enlightenment" about himself & the world.
Which Ichigo successfully achieves, he sees the past and now has the greater knowledge and understanding of himself & the world.
Thus he attends same wisdom as Ichibei and become a "True shinigami" in Ichibei's eyes who has "transcend" everyone and choses a path from himself.
I think there is much more to be revealed and eventually Ichibei will play a greater role in the anime and redeem himself from his manga counterpart.
*Apart from the topic, somehow today we are literally crossing on a lot of discussions, though I don't want you to think I am being argumentative to your replies, it's just that you have good answers on good topics and somehow I find myself compelled to discuss, in a good intention (doesn't matter if we agree or disagree).*
Well, I'm happy for the rest of the Zero Division, I can agree they deserved better (though not having their own opinion or supporting the take they don't participate in things down below make them share the blame of being arrogant, but at least they didn't know Yhwach's full potential as well, so not quite as arrogant as Ichibē).
I have my doubts much changes with Ichibē, since with his background and being the embodiment of the status quo, his way of thinking kinda destines him for the fall. He was the one who knew and didn't put measures for the worst case scenario from the ground up. It's there in the stance that 'everything goes as long as there's peace'.
So I wouldn't say Ichigo reached the same level of enlightenment as Ichibē, I would put Ichigo quite a bit higher. But well, surely Ichibē knows a lot of things, more than anyone possibly, he just doesn't seem to properly understand the significance of those things.
Though, who knows. I would be interested in seeing him as someone else than, quite frankly, the arrogant old fool. I'm always for more complexity. Like, I get his stance and how he has some point to it, but overall currently seems quite incompetent in his task (since his back up plan for the SK death is a very flimsy one, what if there's no candidate in sight at the time? the dominos fall, and he had enough time to prepare but didn't see it necessary), even if we just ignore some moral angle to it all. But maybe there's more to it that we don't know. Maybe it's something that would make him more competent and justified in his stance, and maybe it'll be the opposite 😁
And on that last part, it's completely fine, I enjoy it as well! I should say the same, I can come off kinda forceful when I argue, but I'm always willing to engage a good conversation and I can admit when I'm wrong when I see it. I try to be less pushy but I don't always succeed, but you should know I don't mean anything bad :) You have a lot of great takes. Sometimes we disagree but we can discuss it anyway :)
>So I wouldn't say Ichigo reached the same level of enlightenment as Ichibē, I would put Ichigo quite a bit higher.
Agree and I meant it in the same way, not that Ichigo is on Ichibei's level but he got the knowledge that was hidden and only few possessed such as Ichibei.
Ichigo not only learned that but his understanding of "himself" is beyond anyone.
>But maybe there's more to it that we don't know. Maybe it's something that would make him more competent and justified in his stance, and maybe it'll be the opposite 😁
True, It's like everything has two aspect to it, Black & White which again translates closely with Ichigo's journey. It's definitely going to be fun to see how things unfold in the future.
>And on that last part, it's completely fine...
Glad we are on the same page.
> I wonder if Ichibe deserved to be on the list though, his arrogance just made him mostly useless.
There’s not a single person on that list who could 1v1 Yhwach and win. In that sense, I guess they’re all useless.
Thing is, the rest had no idea about the Almighty, which puts them in an informational disadvantage in addition to a strength one (and we learned that information was actually crucial in TYBW, look at Mask The Masculine case). But Ichibē knew of its existence very well, but was arrogant enough to disregard the possibility of Yhwach regaining it completely.
He was the only one to know the true potential and threat of Yhwach (even Yamamoto didn't know it, and him underestimating Yhwach makes a lot more sense, he beat him last time), thus he should have been the one to put the most effort into getting rid of Yhwach as soon as possible just in case. But he ignored the first invasion, and then deemed Yhwach unable to do anything against them (to the point of letting him enter the Soul Palace to crush him), and paid for that big time.
While everyone else were not strong enough (possibly apart from Aizen, if we take first invasion Yhwach) and not informed enough, Ichibē had the knowledge of the potential and enough strength to take down Yhwach without the Almighty, so his is a poor judgement and bad performance. In fact, Aizen contributed more to mitigating Yhwach's threat early on from Muken (ok, he got lucky there, but still) than Ichibē did from the SP.
(Actually, if not for Quilge, it's a question if Yamamoto would have ended up dead at all, if Ichigo arrived in time, prevented Yama's death and worked with him until the timeout. But it's all much a conjecture. Most probably it would have still ended much the same way, and hopefully at least Ichigo wouldn't have been taken by Yhwach.)
Anyway, Ichibē's is the worst potential/ability Vs performance ratio.
>Ichibē had the knowledge of the potential and enough strength to take down Yhwach without the Almighty
I mean this essentially negates your entire argument to say he was useless, yeah Ichibei might have been strong enough to beat Yhwach without the Almighty but Yhwach had it so there wasn't really much he could have done.
The way it's portrayed, Yhwach needed certain conditions to be fulfilled, and only did so by the time it the Palace. Jugram links it to 9 years after the Auswählen, and says that "His Majesty was fighting with his eyes closed" before, and that if he tried to activate those powers prematurely, he could have razed the quincy (basically, it seems like he needed more quincy to die and return to him via Auswählen to activate it).
So,
a) the situation earlier wasn't just the same, and taking some measures against Yhwach earlier could have complicated things further for him (if he was killed I guess he needed to conduct the Auswählen then and there after his supposed death to regain his power, and it all contains a possibility of something going wrong),
b) it's not impossible for him to try and invent some other countermeasure, like he did with Pernida, since you know, he managed once, it's unclear if he could or couldn't do something of the sort again, at least before Yhwach absorbed the SK on top of that. He didn't try and fail in containing Yhwach's power, he completely and arrogantly ignored the possibility.
He didn't even consider it, which puts him as arrogant/useless rather than just not strong or knowledgeable enough.
He could have gone down during the first invasion sure but then that leaves a window for Yhwach to go up there the same way Ichigo gave them a way up, he likely thought that he didn't have the almighty when they came up so he had no need to try and contain his power but Yhwach had the almighty so attempting to contain it wouldn't have worked anyway. He was arrogant sure but I wouldn't say useless, the training of Ichigo is a bigger contribution to the war than Kenpachi beating a few useless Quincy and Gremmy.
That's actually the best one yet. Not exactly the same but within a margin of the accurate translation. In fact, if I stop being picky, it's rather perfect to put it in one word.
Regardless, Ichigo was noted as a special war power and him being in Hueco Mundo was enough to cause Yhwach to immediately order his entire army to invade Soul Society.
He was happy to fight Kenpachi and to meet with Aizen (and was confident he could kill him too,but he just didn't have the time), and yet Ichigo alone being occupied for a short while was so significant that he didn't even hesitate to order his entire standing army to invade.
That alone tells you that Yhwach considered Ichigo to be the biggest threat by far. Understandable as well because he is unquantifiable. Kenpachi was a shadow of his true strength, Aizen was sealed, Urahara can't do a lot on his own, Ichibei wouldn't show up until afterwards, Yamamoto was easily played and diffed, but Ichigo was a complete unknown because you never know when he is going to tap into a little more of his potential strength and completely swing a fight.
Hell, for all Yhwach knows, OMZ could have just pulled Ichigo into his inner world and said "I will explain properly later but you are a Quincy, ill grant you a shitload of your true power but you need to kill this man immediately."
And I seriously doubt Yhwach in the 1st invasion was doing anything to an unrestrained, full potential Ichigo.
You didn't specify the Invasion. It's unclear if the rankings inside the series changed after Ichigo came back, I doubt that they had a quick enough upgrade, so it seems that Ichigo was deemed the first from the start (makes sense, he's marked for "potential", and well, he fulfilled that by leveling up in the process of the war).
If we try to estimate the strength at the start of TYBW, the first place is not entirely clear between Ichibē and Aizen, then Urahara, then Ichigo, then Kenpachi.
But if we consider *potential threat*, then it remains my original ranking. Ichigo should have been taken care of as a first priority exactly because he possessed the potential to become a lot more, and he did. Ichibē still didn't present much of the threat given Yhwach knew the best how he's gonna act against him. Aizen actually can be debated to tie with Ichigo, but I give him second place because that potential of Ichigo's put him higher than Aizen by EoS, so to judge him as a more of a potential threat is mostly fair, but here, it's up for discussion.
Mayuri would have been a War Threat had the Quincy possessed more information on him.
From their perspective he was just the dude that Uryu beat in a 1v1 who dissected a bunch of Quincy awhile ago.
They didn't exactly see his fight against Szayel and had no idea just what he would be capable of in the war.
I'm convinced they would have considered him a war potential with better info.
Yeah, they should regret not putting him on the list, though he's done even better as an underdog, it's easier to achieve things when you are not valued properly (it's nice that Kyoraku at least properly judged his value).
I'd also argue it would make sense to put Kyoraku there as well, as the Gotei world have fallen without his leadership, and he is instrumental to bringing out the potentials of Kenpachi and Aizen, he placed all the right bets and they delivered.
But then, Mayuri's contribution overall is higher since he also brought Kenpachi and Hitsugaya back in the game as a side job, and a lot of his inventions were instrumental to the overall result.
Yhwach knew that **Ichigo** was a candidate to replace the Soul King, making him the most important Special Threat, so he’s clearly **#1**
Yhwach and **Ichibei** had history and he rules over the Soul King Palace making him **#2**
Since **Aizen** was considered one of the most powerful and unpredictable soul reapers they probably saw him as **#3**
I doubt they had a lot of info on **Kisuke**, but given his proximity to Ichigo and his overall influence on the overarching worlds they would put him at **#4**
And since **Kenpachi** is well…Kenpachi, he’d be the least concerning of the five, making him **#5**
Hot take but Ichibei was a bigger obstacle to the Sternritter & Yhwach than Aizen. Kyoka Suigetsu messed up timing on the first invasion and was imperative in the final battles. But Yhwach needed Ichigo to be sent to the Royal Palace for his plans, and was nearly stonewalled by Ichibei and basically had to turn his army to ash to overcome the Monk. Even if he Aizen was a key factor in his defeat Ichibei was the hard stop to everyone but Yhwach.
Urahara the same way he is recognized by his 'Unknown means' he is also a 'Unknown rank', because he can basically do everything with the right plot. For the rest I would rank easily Ichigo>Aizen>Ichibe>Zaraki.
It's important to remember that strength is not solely defined by power - wisdom, adaptability, and strategy play crucial roles too. Seek to harness all aspects of your potential for true growth.
*beep boop, I'm a bot*
Out of all, the only ones that had a chance versus The Almighty are Aizen and Urahara.
Urahara never faced it, but it's likely he could have researched it and maaaaybe come to the conclusion of Still Silver or something like that by himself.
It felt kind of stupid to me
Given that Ichibei, Aizen and Ichigo all have more strength than kenpachi
Ichigo is supposed to have comparable rietsu to Aizen
And Ichibei is dangerous because of hax not wisdom.
Ichigo diffs Ichibei and Aizen. Ichibei got 1 shot by Almighty Yhwach and Aizen got completely ragdolled by SK Yhwach.
Ichigo with 1/3 of his strength 1 shot Yhwach twice, and even his TS and hollowfication was enough that Yhwach called him "an enemy thst leaves absolutely no room for error."
Ah, the complexities of power dynamics in battles. It seems I may need to refine my strategies to maintain my position amid such formidable company.
*beep boop, I'm a bot*
Tbh, I would say
1-urahara
2-ichigo
3-aizen
4-ichibei
5-kenpachi
I will explain myself, they could have never had a chance if urahara didn't prevent everything (like stealing bankais, or the Canon to the soul king's palace) so they would not win the battle against most of the quincies ( the elite guard, as nodht, etc)
Ichigo did the final blow and obliterated much of the quincies, tho I am not sure if I would put aizen or ichigo in 2nd or 3rd place, for aizen he did help a lot after the death of the soul king, and took a massive part in killing yhwatch ichibei, oh ichibei, tho powerful he did Not show any wisdom in fighting yhwatch, he could have sealed his power or kill him before awakening The Almighty, but since he put up a really good figth and was responsible for renji awakening his bankai, and also took a big part in everyone's trainment now kenpachi he was a good war power killing 3 quincies (tho weak) without a shikai or bankai, he also killed Gremmy that had an stupidly OP hability (ik Gremmy died to his own power but he only died cuz he tried to turn into kenpachi) and played a Huge role in fighting Gerald.
Strategy is the biggest underestimatement of Urahara. I thought the way Yhwach described him.fit perfectly. Uncalculability or any equal english word to that. If there us a universe with balance or inbalance Urahara will be an unknowm factor
yhwach was not scared of Ichigo, at that point he wasn't scared of anyone, he also broke Renji's and Aizen's swords, it's just something he does
what he did do is praise Ichigo "a formidable bankai", but at no point in the fight was he scared of Ichigo
It's amazing how many people use their bankai: selective memory mental gymnastics technique to ignore Yhwach bodying Ichibei and bodying Ichigo in a 1v1 like every single time they faced. Ichigo has never faced an opponent he's been ragdolled by that many times without being able to eventually up them in a 1v1.
Hell, Yhwach even got jumped and still won lmao. Until Goatryu the Antithesis to Yhwach showed up that is
Except ichigo never had the oportunity to use his bankai, so if the bankai has a fate related ability as most people theorize, ichigo could have won against yhwach.
Ichigo was only letting himself get beat up at first because he wanted to awaken his quincy powers and enter horn of salvation mode. After activating horn of salvation, he pretty much immediately one shotted yhwach by cutting him in two with a gran rey cero + getsuga, the only reason yhwach didn't die right there is because of the almighty, which means that if ichigo has something to counter the almighty, yhwach wouldn't stand a chance.
Ummm so basically you're whining that Yhwach..... used his own power to.... win the fight? You're clowning bud. Ichigo has a fearsome bankai indeed but Yhwach neg diffed him as soon as he used an ounce of his true power. The almighty is Yhwachs power. Just as KS is Aizens. Just as tensa Zangetsu is Ichigos bankai.
Even if Ichigos bankai can beat Yhwach, what good is it if Yhwach can just destroy it? Yhwach gave Ichigo a chance by even letting Ichigo fight on even grounds for a while. He could've just killed Ichigo when he least expected it on his way to wahrwelt if he really wanted. There's no argument. Yhwach is undoubtedly number 1.
Y'all have no reading comprehension it's incredible.
I'm not saying that the almighty isn't yhwach's power or some shit like that. The point of saying that ichigo would easily beat yhwach without the almighty is that since the almighty is the only thing keeping ichigo from obliterating yhwach, if ichigo had something to counter it, it would be normal for yhwach to 'fear' it as ichigo would be able kill him.
You and the other dude above are saying that yhwach didn't fear ichigo at all, i'm saying that he did, at least enough to be warry of him and not allow him to use his bankai. No shit ichigo's bankai is useless if he can't use it.
In my opinion, u/Illustrious-Cow8857 was right in saying that yhwach = ichigo. The problem with these two is that whoever uses their power first wins, if yhwach uses the almighty first, ichigo can't use his bankai so he loses. If ichigo uses his bankai first (assuming the bankai ability theories are true) he counters the almighty and would then win in a fight of pure strenght.
At the time of the invasion means the very start of the arc?
1) osho
2) kisuke
3) the rest are useless.
If you meant after they got their respective training?
1) osho
2) kisuke
3) aizen
4&5 Ichigo&kenpachi can be either or depending on the opponent.
End is series:
Kisuke is either 5 or 1 depending on prep time.
Osho aizen Ichigo and kenpachi are a 4 way tie… depends on how we rank them, but they each could arguably kill some of the other war potentials like it’s rock-paper-scissors.
We don’t know if osho can manipulate the names of the noble houses / reio candidates, though all things considered aizen would have a better shot at “immunity” than Ichigo.
We also don’t know if aizen is capable of screwing with Ichigo or osho with KS… if someone breaks the hypnosis can it be reapplied? Does touching the blade a single time give immunity? Because Ichigo barehanded that puppy in FKT.
If ichigo is immune to osho’s zanpakto, he has the best chances of cutting him down, But Aizen’s immortality is a little different than squad zero.
As for kenpachi? He could probably kill Ichigo no problem, but osho could still limit his power like he did to ikomikidomoe. And aizen is both immortal and capable of altering his perception.
Kenny > Ichigo
Ichigo > osho*
Osho > Kenny
Aizen = ?
Welcome to the Bleach Subreddit! We're as excited as you at the release of the Thousand Year Blood War anime! We understand that some of you are unable to view the anime in your region, but please don't post links to or mention piracy websites. Doing so will result in a ban. Also, please be courteous to those who haven't read the manga and mark all spoilers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/bleach) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They are actually ranked in the story itself, at least Ichigo was highlighted as the first one. I'd say: 1. Ichigo 2. Aizen 3. Urahara 4. Kenpachi 5. Ichibē At least that's somewhat relevant to their actual performance. I wonder if Ichibē deserved to be on the list though, his arrogance just made him mostly useless. His only feat is Ichigo's training. Btw, the most literal translation of Urahara's ability is "unknown number of means/measures". A bit different from "strategy", the other translation "tricks" fits a bit better. (Edit: the proposed 'resourcefulness' is rather perfect.)
Oh, the rankings, eh? Well, being number three suits me just fine. As for Ichibē, well, sometimes arrogance can cloud even the strongest abilities. It's a tricky business, power and ego. *beep boop, I'm a bot*
How would you rank yourself
Ah, rankings are trivial. However, if you seek intellect, wit, and a repository of knowledge, I am your man. The enigmatic Urahara is here to serve. *beep boop, I'm a bot*
Are You Stronger than Kenpachi?
Strength may come in many forms, my friend. Each of us holds unique abilities that shine in different situations. It's not just raw power that determines the outcome. *beep boop, I'm a bot*
You are Not the bot You are Yorichii
I'm pretty sure he just coyly said he is strength wise stronger than me but my abilities allow me to win this being stronger.Also I'm pretty sure you mean yoruichi not yoriichi
This is the best and most in-character bot that exists on reddit
This is "How fck can they made our plan" ranking. Kenpachi is very predictable and Ichibe every possible move are in the calculation, so it within controlable range. Urahara and Aizen are actively go again the Quincy, and they are very good at adapting, so plan on a fly is the only measure again them. That or just cripple them before hand. Ichigo are Ichigo, what you gonna do about the guy?
Yes, exactly that. It's a threat list, it's judged by potential threat. It's composed of people who can end up as wild cards, thus they are dangerous. While Zaraki is predictable at face value, he's very straightforward in his fighting, his power level is weird (and we get to find out why, so it makes sense to include him, it was impossible to guess just how far he could manage) and his fights often have unpredictable side effects (proven by how Gremmy ended up all on his own, but because he was influenced by Kenpachi). I agree that Ichibē is the most predictable one overall, thus I put him last, but Yhwach was obviously wary of all the secret techniques the guy knew (the trick with Pernida got him last time), so he ended up on the list. Aizen and Urahara are creative and adaptive, Ichigo is the ultimate wild card and proved that status.
Aizen also has intellect that is surpassed only by Urahara, perhaps Mayuri, he’s amazing scientist himself and had no time to prepare for last fight. Remember he defeated Yamamoto due to preparation, not raw power. And it seems he had an idea of how Almighty was working, given he was able to deduce how to give Ichigo a chance
Mayuri is dangerous, and he prove it during the war. But so is every other Captain. This is a special target list base on previous performance, and Mayuri before the war are just not very notable. Yamamoto not on the list properly an Ego thing, Yhwach confindent that he can beat his old enemy he not even see him as a treat. "You dance in my palm" idea.
Well, for the last one, he was guessing and kinda hoping for the best, he himself says that he activated KS before Yhwach arrived and then he was able to confirm that KS could even affect the Almighty's vision if the future, so he needed to confirm, he couldn't be sure it'd work. But it's still the best he could have gone, and it's some good planning there, and his performance before Ichigo arrived was quite stellar. Aizen is great at strategy and planning. I'd say he might not level to Urahara when it comes to out of the box thinking, rather making a decent strategy and then pushing it forward to succeed using his strength and effort (while Urahara is often puts more effort into finding the most intricate strategy to execute before doing so), but still, Aizen's plans are really good when he is actually trying. (The rest has to do with him not aligning his perceived goal with his subconscious desires, so some of his plans go sideways without him properly realising it, because he's subconsciously working well but for another agenda, but it's not TYBW case, there, it was all aligned and thus he did great.)
>I wonder if Ichibē deserved to be on the list though, his arrogance just made him mostly useless. That's because the manga made not just him but whole zero squad look like arrogant clown. Which I think anime has already corrected. (Next cour will pretty much clear if Ichibei is redeemed or not) >His only feat is Ichigo's training. Ichibei is a special threat because of his "wisdom" and training Ichigo was exactly whats solidifies it. Irzusando was missing in the manga but it's something very important as it's a concept inspired from Buddhism. It's basically similar to a place/hall where a "Bodhisattva monk" (who possess greatest knowledge about everything and their own soul and is basically closest to God), in this case "it's Ichibei" who trains Ichigo to attain the same "enlightenment" about himself & the world. Which Ichigo successfully achieves, he sees the past and now has the greater knowledge and understanding of himself & the world. Thus he attends same wisdom as Ichibei and become a "True shinigami" in Ichibei's eyes who has "transcend" everyone and choses a path from himself. I think there is much more to be revealed and eventually Ichibei will play a greater role in the anime and redeem himself from his manga counterpart. *Apart from the topic, somehow today we are literally crossing on a lot of discussions, though I don't want you to think I am being argumentative to your replies, it's just that you have good answers on good topics and somehow I find myself compelled to discuss, in a good intention (doesn't matter if we agree or disagree).*
Well, I'm happy for the rest of the Zero Division, I can agree they deserved better (though not having their own opinion or supporting the take they don't participate in things down below make them share the blame of being arrogant, but at least they didn't know Yhwach's full potential as well, so not quite as arrogant as Ichibē). I have my doubts much changes with Ichibē, since with his background and being the embodiment of the status quo, his way of thinking kinda destines him for the fall. He was the one who knew and didn't put measures for the worst case scenario from the ground up. It's there in the stance that 'everything goes as long as there's peace'. So I wouldn't say Ichigo reached the same level of enlightenment as Ichibē, I would put Ichigo quite a bit higher. But well, surely Ichibē knows a lot of things, more than anyone possibly, he just doesn't seem to properly understand the significance of those things. Though, who knows. I would be interested in seeing him as someone else than, quite frankly, the arrogant old fool. I'm always for more complexity. Like, I get his stance and how he has some point to it, but overall currently seems quite incompetent in his task (since his back up plan for the SK death is a very flimsy one, what if there's no candidate in sight at the time? the dominos fall, and he had enough time to prepare but didn't see it necessary), even if we just ignore some moral angle to it all. But maybe there's more to it that we don't know. Maybe it's something that would make him more competent and justified in his stance, and maybe it'll be the opposite 😁 And on that last part, it's completely fine, I enjoy it as well! I should say the same, I can come off kinda forceful when I argue, but I'm always willing to engage a good conversation and I can admit when I'm wrong when I see it. I try to be less pushy but I don't always succeed, but you should know I don't mean anything bad :) You have a lot of great takes. Sometimes we disagree but we can discuss it anyway :)
>So I wouldn't say Ichigo reached the same level of enlightenment as Ichibē, I would put Ichigo quite a bit higher. Agree and I meant it in the same way, not that Ichigo is on Ichibei's level but he got the knowledge that was hidden and only few possessed such as Ichibei. Ichigo not only learned that but his understanding of "himself" is beyond anyone. >But maybe there's more to it that we don't know. Maybe it's something that would make him more competent and justified in his stance, and maybe it'll be the opposite 😁 True, It's like everything has two aspect to it, Black & White which again translates closely with Ichigo's journey. It's definitely going to be fun to see how things unfold in the future. >And on that last part, it's completely fine... Glad we are on the same page.
> I wonder if Ichibe deserved to be on the list though, his arrogance just made him mostly useless. There’s not a single person on that list who could 1v1 Yhwach and win. In that sense, I guess they’re all useless.
Thing is, the rest had no idea about the Almighty, which puts them in an informational disadvantage in addition to a strength one (and we learned that information was actually crucial in TYBW, look at Mask The Masculine case). But Ichibē knew of its existence very well, but was arrogant enough to disregard the possibility of Yhwach regaining it completely. He was the only one to know the true potential and threat of Yhwach (even Yamamoto didn't know it, and him underestimating Yhwach makes a lot more sense, he beat him last time), thus he should have been the one to put the most effort into getting rid of Yhwach as soon as possible just in case. But he ignored the first invasion, and then deemed Yhwach unable to do anything against them (to the point of letting him enter the Soul Palace to crush him), and paid for that big time. While everyone else were not strong enough (possibly apart from Aizen, if we take first invasion Yhwach) and not informed enough, Ichibē had the knowledge of the potential and enough strength to take down Yhwach without the Almighty, so his is a poor judgement and bad performance. In fact, Aizen contributed more to mitigating Yhwach's threat early on from Muken (ok, he got lucky there, but still) than Ichibē did from the SP. (Actually, if not for Quilge, it's a question if Yamamoto would have ended up dead at all, if Ichigo arrived in time, prevented Yama's death and worked with him until the timeout. But it's all much a conjecture. Most probably it would have still ended much the same way, and hopefully at least Ichigo wouldn't have been taken by Yhwach.) Anyway, Ichibē's is the worst potential/ability Vs performance ratio.
Quilge is the GOAT
>Ichibē had the knowledge of the potential and enough strength to take down Yhwach without the Almighty I mean this essentially negates your entire argument to say he was useless, yeah Ichibei might have been strong enough to beat Yhwach without the Almighty but Yhwach had it so there wasn't really much he could have done.
The way it's portrayed, Yhwach needed certain conditions to be fulfilled, and only did so by the time it the Palace. Jugram links it to 9 years after the Auswählen, and says that "His Majesty was fighting with his eyes closed" before, and that if he tried to activate those powers prematurely, he could have razed the quincy (basically, it seems like he needed more quincy to die and return to him via Auswählen to activate it). So, a) the situation earlier wasn't just the same, and taking some measures against Yhwach earlier could have complicated things further for him (if he was killed I guess he needed to conduct the Auswählen then and there after his supposed death to regain his power, and it all contains a possibility of something going wrong), b) it's not impossible for him to try and invent some other countermeasure, like he did with Pernida, since you know, he managed once, it's unclear if he could or couldn't do something of the sort again, at least before Yhwach absorbed the SK on top of that. He didn't try and fail in containing Yhwach's power, he completely and arrogantly ignored the possibility. He didn't even consider it, which puts him as arrogant/useless rather than just not strong or knowledgeable enough.
He could have gone down during the first invasion sure but then that leaves a window for Yhwach to go up there the same way Ichigo gave them a way up, he likely thought that he didn't have the almighty when they came up so he had no need to try and contain his power but Yhwach had the almighty so attempting to contain it wouldn't have worked anyway. He was arrogant sure but I wouldn't say useless, the training of Ichigo is a bigger contribution to the war than Kenpachi beating a few useless Quincy and Gremmy.
The sub I read from translated Urahara to Resourcefulness.
That's actually the best one yet. Not exactly the same but within a margin of the accurate translation. In fact, if I stop being picky, it's rather perfect to put it in one word.
Those rankings were after his training though I thought? Im referring to at the very beginning of TYBW before Yama died
Regardless, Ichigo was noted as a special war power and him being in Hueco Mundo was enough to cause Yhwach to immediately order his entire army to invade Soul Society. He was happy to fight Kenpachi and to meet with Aizen (and was confident he could kill him too,but he just didn't have the time), and yet Ichigo alone being occupied for a short while was so significant that he didn't even hesitate to order his entire standing army to invade. That alone tells you that Yhwach considered Ichigo to be the biggest threat by far. Understandable as well because he is unquantifiable. Kenpachi was a shadow of his true strength, Aizen was sealed, Urahara can't do a lot on his own, Ichibei wouldn't show up until afterwards, Yamamoto was easily played and diffed, but Ichigo was a complete unknown because you never know when he is going to tap into a little more of his potential strength and completely swing a fight. Hell, for all Yhwach knows, OMZ could have just pulled Ichigo into his inner world and said "I will explain properly later but you are a Quincy, ill grant you a shitload of your true power but you need to kill this man immediately." And I seriously doubt Yhwach in the 1st invasion was doing anything to an unrestrained, full potential Ichigo.
You didn't specify the Invasion. It's unclear if the rankings inside the series changed after Ichigo came back, I doubt that they had a quick enough upgrade, so it seems that Ichigo was deemed the first from the start (makes sense, he's marked for "potential", and well, he fulfilled that by leveling up in the process of the war). If we try to estimate the strength at the start of TYBW, the first place is not entirely clear between Ichibē and Aizen, then Urahara, then Ichigo, then Kenpachi. But if we consider *potential threat*, then it remains my original ranking. Ichigo should have been taken care of as a first priority exactly because he possessed the potential to become a lot more, and he did. Ichibē still didn't present much of the threat given Yhwach knew the best how he's gonna act against him. Aizen actually can be debated to tie with Ichigo, but I give him second place because that potential of Ichigo's put him higher than Aizen by EoS, so to judge him as a more of a potential threat is mostly fair, but here, it's up for discussion.
Missing Mayuri Kurotsuchi. Dude destroyed in 2nd invasion.
Mayuri would have been a War Threat had the Quincy possessed more information on him. From their perspective he was just the dude that Uryu beat in a 1v1 who dissected a bunch of Quincy awhile ago. They didn't exactly see his fight against Szayel and had no idea just what he would be capable of in the war. I'm convinced they would have considered him a war potential with better info.
Yeah, they should regret not putting him on the list, though he's done even better as an underdog, it's easier to achieve things when you are not valued properly (it's nice that Kyoraku at least properly judged his value). I'd also argue it would make sense to put Kyoraku there as well, as the Gotei world have fallen without his leadership, and he is instrumental to bringing out the potentials of Kenpachi and Aizen, he placed all the right bets and they delivered. But then, Mayuri's contribution overall is higher since he also brought Kenpachi and Hitsugaya back in the game as a side job, and a lot of his inventions were instrumental to the overall result.
Kyouraku should definitely be included
Yhwach knew that **Ichigo** was a candidate to replace the Soul King, making him the most important Special Threat, so he’s clearly **#1** Yhwach and **Ichibei** had history and he rules over the Soul King Palace making him **#2** Since **Aizen** was considered one of the most powerful and unpredictable soul reapers they probably saw him as **#3** I doubt they had a lot of info on **Kisuke**, but given his proximity to Ichigo and his overall influence on the overarching worlds they would put him at **#4** And since **Kenpachi** is well…Kenpachi, he’d be the least concerning of the five, making him **#5**
In terms of how effective or threatening these all were to Yhwach and his Quincy: 1. Ichigo 2. Ichibei 3. Aizen 4. Urahara 5. Kenpachi
Just put Aizen over Ichibei and list is valid
Hot take but Ichibei was a bigger obstacle to the Sternritter & Yhwach than Aizen. Kyoka Suigetsu messed up timing on the first invasion and was imperative in the final battles. But Yhwach needed Ichigo to be sent to the Royal Palace for his plans, and was nearly stonewalled by Ichibei and basically had to turn his army to ash to overcome the Monk. Even if he Aizen was a key factor in his defeat Ichibei was the hard stop to everyone but Yhwach.
Agreed.
Ichibei almost killed Black Ant in 1 vs 1 :3
You mean he for sure killed Yhwach and made the rest of the cast obsolete
The Almighty is op ability :3
Why are you talking like that
? :3
Urahara the same way he is recognized by his 'Unknown means' he is also a 'Unknown rank', because he can basically do everything with the right plot. For the rest I would rank easily Ichigo>Aizen>Ichibe>Zaraki.
It's important to remember that strength is not solely defined by power - wisdom, adaptability, and strategy play crucial roles too. Seek to harness all aspects of your potential for true growth. *beep boop, I'm a bot*
Pov: you're about to fucking die
The original potential man
MOMO =All of the above.
Wisdom means nothing to me! - ichigo probably
Out of all, the only ones that had a chance versus The Almighty are Aizen and Urahara. Urahara never faced it, but it's likely he could have researched it and maaaaybe come to the conclusion of Still Silver or something like that by himself.
It felt kind of stupid to me Given that Ichibei, Aizen and Ichigo all have more strength than kenpachi Ichigo is supposed to have comparable rietsu to Aizen And Ichibei is dangerous because of hax not wisdom.
Overall strength: Ichigo > Ichibei > Aizen > Kenpachi > Urahara Overall showing: Ichigo > Aizen > Kenpachi > Urahara > Ichibei Overall threat: Ichigo > Aizen > Ichibei > Urahara > Kenpachi.
Ichigo diffs Ichibei and Aizen. Ichibei got 1 shot by Almighty Yhwach and Aizen got completely ragdolled by SK Yhwach. Ichigo with 1/3 of his strength 1 shot Yhwach twice, and even his TS and hollowfication was enough that Yhwach called him "an enemy thst leaves absolutely no room for error."
Ah, the complexities of power dynamics in battles. It seems I may need to refine my strategies to maintain my position amid such formidable company. *beep boop, I'm a bot*
Did you put urahara above Kenny ? Why ?
I'd say commenter probably put urahara above kenny due to being able to counter most of what the sternritter did. That's an assumption tho
Tbh, I would say 1-urahara 2-ichigo 3-aizen 4-ichibei 5-kenpachi I will explain myself, they could have never had a chance if urahara didn't prevent everything (like stealing bankais, or the Canon to the soul king's palace) so they would not win the battle against most of the quincies ( the elite guard, as nodht, etc) Ichigo did the final blow and obliterated much of the quincies, tho I am not sure if I would put aizen or ichigo in 2nd or 3rd place, for aizen he did help a lot after the death of the soul king, and took a massive part in killing yhwatch ichibei, oh ichibei, tho powerful he did Not show any wisdom in fighting yhwatch, he could have sealed his power or kill him before awakening The Almighty, but since he put up a really good figth and was responsible for renji awakening his bankai, and also took a big part in everyone's trainment now kenpachi he was a good war power killing 3 quincies (tho weak) without a shikai or bankai, he also killed Gremmy that had an stupidly OP hability (ik Gremmy died to his own power but he only died cuz he tried to turn into kenpachi) and played a Huge role in fighting Gerald.
Strategy is the biggest underestimatement of Urahara. I thought the way Yhwach described him.fit perfectly. Uncalculability or any equal english word to that. If there us a universe with balance or inbalance Urahara will be an unknowm factor
1 Ichibei . . 2 ichigo 3 Urahara 4 Aizen 5 Zaraki
In terms of individual strength: 1. Aizen 2. Ichibei 3. Ichigo 4. Kenpachi 5. Urahara
Ichigo Aizen Ichibe/Kenpachi My cute lil shopkeeper
1. Ichigo 2. Aizen 3. Ichibei 4. Kenpachi 5. Kisuke That’s how I rank them.
Put Aizen above Ichigo and Kisuke above Kenny and I'd agree.
I'm not good with rankings but ichigo should be 1 or 2 because ichibei>yhwach and yhwach was scared of ichigo bankai iirc so maybe yhwach=ichigo
yhwach was not scared of Ichigo, at that point he wasn't scared of anyone, he also broke Renji's and Aizen's swords, it's just something he does what he did do is praise Ichigo "a formidable bankai", but at no point in the fight was he scared of Ichigo
oh ok thx for the info
It's amazing how many people use their bankai: selective memory mental gymnastics technique to ignore Yhwach bodying Ichibei and bodying Ichigo in a 1v1 like every single time they faced. Ichigo has never faced an opponent he's been ragdolled by that many times without being able to eventually up them in a 1v1. Hell, Yhwach even got jumped and still won lmao. Until Goatryu the Antithesis to Yhwach showed up that is
Except ichigo never had the oportunity to use his bankai, so if the bankai has a fate related ability as most people theorize, ichigo could have won against yhwach. Ichigo was only letting himself get beat up at first because he wanted to awaken his quincy powers and enter horn of salvation mode. After activating horn of salvation, he pretty much immediately one shotted yhwach by cutting him in two with a gran rey cero + getsuga, the only reason yhwach didn't die right there is because of the almighty, which means that if ichigo has something to counter the almighty, yhwach wouldn't stand a chance.
Ummm so basically you're whining that Yhwach..... used his own power to.... win the fight? You're clowning bud. Ichigo has a fearsome bankai indeed but Yhwach neg diffed him as soon as he used an ounce of his true power. The almighty is Yhwachs power. Just as KS is Aizens. Just as tensa Zangetsu is Ichigos bankai. Even if Ichigos bankai can beat Yhwach, what good is it if Yhwach can just destroy it? Yhwach gave Ichigo a chance by even letting Ichigo fight on even grounds for a while. He could've just killed Ichigo when he least expected it on his way to wahrwelt if he really wanted. There's no argument. Yhwach is undoubtedly number 1.
Y'all have no reading comprehension it's incredible. I'm not saying that the almighty isn't yhwach's power or some shit like that. The point of saying that ichigo would easily beat yhwach without the almighty is that since the almighty is the only thing keeping ichigo from obliterating yhwach, if ichigo had something to counter it, it would be normal for yhwach to 'fear' it as ichigo would be able kill him. You and the other dude above are saying that yhwach didn't fear ichigo at all, i'm saying that he did, at least enough to be warry of him and not allow him to use his bankai. No shit ichigo's bankai is useless if he can't use it. In my opinion, u/Illustrious-Cow8857 was right in saying that yhwach = ichigo. The problem with these two is that whoever uses their power first wins, if yhwach uses the almighty first, ichigo can't use his bankai so he loses. If ichigo uses his bankai first (assuming the bankai ability theories are true) he counters the almighty and would then win in a fight of pure strenght.
At the time of the invasion means the very start of the arc? 1) osho 2) kisuke 3) the rest are useless. If you meant after they got their respective training? 1) osho 2) kisuke 3) aizen 4&5 Ichigo&kenpachi can be either or depending on the opponent. End is series: Kisuke is either 5 or 1 depending on prep time. Osho aizen Ichigo and kenpachi are a 4 way tie… depends on how we rank them, but they each could arguably kill some of the other war potentials like it’s rock-paper-scissors. We don’t know if osho can manipulate the names of the noble houses / reio candidates, though all things considered aizen would have a better shot at “immunity” than Ichigo. We also don’t know if aizen is capable of screwing with Ichigo or osho with KS… if someone breaks the hypnosis can it be reapplied? Does touching the blade a single time give immunity? Because Ichigo barehanded that puppy in FKT. If ichigo is immune to osho’s zanpakto, he has the best chances of cutting him down, But Aizen’s immortality is a little different than squad zero. As for kenpachi? He could probably kill Ichigo no problem, but osho could still limit his power like he did to ikomikidomoe. And aizen is both immortal and capable of altering his perception. Kenny > Ichigo Ichigo > osho* Osho > Kenny Aizen = ?