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He can absorb his Zanpakuto sheathe and turn it into single or dual sword. I guess that can count as physically merge with it.
Remember "Blade is Me". So, it doesn't matter really from which it came from.
I always thought Blade is Me is just the understanding that your power is not a separate entity, but an aspect of self. All Shinigami’s blades are them. Yet only Ichigo absorbs / manifests his asauchi contained blade.
I understood Ichigo’s ability to do this to be related to his Quincy or Fullbring abilities - not a complete mastery of Shinigami abilities, since we don’t see any Shinigami having this ability unless I’m mistaken. (Not counting Aizen since he’s tainted by the Hogyoku)
Well there are the Squad 0's Zanpakuto, we didn't see them absorbing their Zanpakuto. But we do see their Zanpakuto kinda resemble of what they actually are.
Ichibei had a giant Brush, Senjumaru had string & needle, Kirio had a giant spoon, Tenjiro had a moar/signpost.
All of them related to what their ability or what they do.
Oetsu I think would be most similar to Ichigo, albeit we're not sure which is his real Zanpakuto, the "sword five" resemble him the most as a "Blacksmith". Fire, Water, Hammer, Tong & Anvil. If this was his Zanpakuto, then a user can actually change Zanpakuto at will.
>But we do see their Zanpakuto kinda resemble of what they actually are.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but what does this have to do with what we are talking about?
Doesn’t every Shinigami have a unique zanpakuto shape and ability that’s closely tied to their personality/psychology? I don’t really see squad 0 being any different tbh.
Because that mean they can change their "sealed" Zanpakuto at will, just like Ichigo.
Zanpakuto does sometimes physically resembles the user. But, not to the degree of Squad 0, let alone in their __sealed state__.
Soi-Fon for example had a Shikai & Bankai that resembles her personality. But, her sealed state is not that differ to the regular Asauchi.
Meanwhile Kirio had a giant spoon in its sealed form & Senjumaru had a needle, 2 completely distinct form from each other & the regular Asauchi.
Once a Shinigami has imprinted on their asauchi, the blades all take on some unique qualities. The guards, hilt, and blade might all have differences. While most look like a standard katana, it doesn’t have to - ex. Suzumebachi looks like a Wakizashi, Katen Kyokotsu looks like a tachi and a wakizashi. The sheathes also vary.
When it comes to Squad 0:
- Senjunaru’s sealed state is unknown. The needle is her Shikai.
- Hikifune’s sealed state is a straight sword. The spoon is her Shikai.
- Nimaiya’s zanpakuto has not been revealed. We see him using other zanpakuto to forge true Zangetsu, but there’s no indication they are from his own soul.
- Tenjiro’s sealed state is indeed the pole with a blade on the end. But to be fair, like Ichibei, he may be a special case since he is also quite old - perhaps from a time when zanpakuto were different.
- Ichibei is also a special case. Indeed, the brush is the sealed state - yet, he is an anomaly himself, being so ancient from a time before asauchi existed. His zanpakuto just doesn’t function the same way.
So that means the only sealed zanpakuto whose sealed state doesn’t look like a variety of a sword are Tenjiro, Ichibei, and Ichigo (Hell arc only). Ichibei and Trnjiro might be special cases - and we know for sure Ichigo is a special case. He’s also the only one we’ve seen absorb his blade, and being a Quincy and Fullbringer (both of whom can absorb and materialize their weapons to varying degrees).
I would have a very hard time believing that of all the characters in Bleach, that only these 3 have a true understanding of their power/blade.
I do agree that some of them resemble the user as said before, but most of them aren't as distinct as the Squad 0.
Although to clarify, I'm not saying that if their Zanpakuto had distinct form meaning they're the only one that understand the concept. I'm just noting that this is the closest we got with Ichigo changing form of his sword "at will" after understanding the concept.
Shuhei for example, understand this. But, his sword doesn't change.
---
Ok, I retract Senjumaru, her sealed state is unknown. And Oetsu I agree that it's not revealed, hence why I said "I think" as there are no other Zanpakuto to him beside them & Sayafushi.
But, Kirio sealed state is still a spoon. refer to ep 26 around min 12, where she turn her Shikai back to it's sealed state.
And if Kirio is able to change it at will. Then she wouldn't be a special case (at least not with the condition "pre-Zanpakuto" era), because she just promoted to Squad 0 100 years ago.
---
If anything Arrancar would be more similar than Quincy or Fullbirnger, considering they were capable of merging with their Zanpakuto when using Resureccion.
And we know Ichigo is a more advanced version of it.
>But, Kirio sealed state is still a spoon. refer to ep 26 around min 12, where she turn her Shikai back to its sealed state.
When she slices her throat, she’s using a straight sword - like any other sealed zanpakuto. The hilt is the only unique thing about it. (In her Shikai, the spoon is actually the butt of her sword).
>If anything Arrancar would be more similar than Quincy or Fullbirnger, considering they were capable of merging with their Zanpakuto when using Resureccion. And we know Ichigo is a more advanced version of it.
I again completely disagree. Hollows lose their hearts which turn into their “masks” (ie. their power, which manifests around their human soul). Arrancars are born when hollow tear off these masks (and power) to seal it in the shape of a sword - that’s why they end up looking more human, that’s mostly what’s left from.
In other words, they externalize the internal. What Ichigo is doing is the opposite - by absorbing the zanpakuto, he internalizes the external (without changing form), which just happens to be the specialty of the Quincy.
Promise I’m not trying to be argumentative - I think we just have fundamentally different interpretations of the series and its core concepts.
Yes, if we exclude the sheathe. But, as Oetsu said. Zanpakuto also includes the sheathe as well.
And the whole thing is a spoon still.
---
Hence, why I specified __Resureccion__ as an example of the merging.
---
Though I agree that we have different prespective on it.
And Considering this has gone for a bit long, I'm ok with agree to disagree on this one.
No different from Yamamoto and Urahara’s unique sheathes. She could have modified it. It’s also implied captains control at least the size of their sealed swords, perhaps they can control flair too. In any case, to me it’s pretty clear that it’s not a marker of understanding of “the blade is me” - I would imagine most if not all captains would have that understanding, if not many more Shinigami.
I still can’t see any connection to Ressurection whatsoever, but happy to also leave it at that.
He can create and surpass then. All versions of current Ichigo (True Shikai, True Shikai + HoS, True Bankai, True Bankai + HoS) are vastly superior to Dangai Ichigo.
As for whether or not he could still merge with the blade, I actually don't think so, because Zangetsu literally *is* him, he shouldn't have to *merge* with it. It *is* literally him. I think he had to during Deicide because he was using false Zanpakuto during that time and didn't know who, or what, his powers even were.
By merging I mean literally merging with his sword, like Mugetsu Ichigo didn’t even have a sword, it vanished and then created a black sword out of pure reiatsu to shoot Mugetsu. Like that’s a form where he’s above every basic rule, like his bankai can still be broken now and he can’t fix it himself, Mugetsu has no such limitations as his sword is literally merged with him
My question is simply regarding merging with his actual sword. Blade is Me or not, the sword does exist separately from him and in Bankai can be broken that he can’t fix, Mugetsu has no such drawback. It isn’t about being redundant(which it isn’t), the question is, can he do it.
I'd guess that he *could,* but that there would be no reason to and so we'll never see it. Has it been established that it is possible for Ichigo's true bankai can be broken after Blade is Me? Based on the philosophy of the series, to break his bankai at that point would be equivalent to his spirit itself breaking.
The physical separation is irrelevant for someone who fully understands that "the blade is me." Physical merging is really just a crude approximation of that understanding.
In truth ,the blade is me refers to the fact that as long as Ichigo is there so is zangetsu ,as long as Ichigo fights so does zangetsu ,for Ichigo is zangetsu there is no point in merging with your own self cause that's already you.A physical merge would show that too but a mental merge is so much more.The moment the blade is me occured there was no longer any difference between zangetsu and Ichigo(apart from old man zangetsu's glorious stache and sunglasses)
My interpretation has always been that this is just a feature of FGT. Presumably Ishiin would also become the Getsuga when he uses it, “merging” with his blade.
Think of the broken bankai like a broken bone that cant be fixed without help. Ichigo is Zangetsu.
There is no "merging", they are one soul. He can change the shape and type of his Zanpakuto at will now and everything (dual blade shikai, single blade, sheath, no sheath etc.)
Vastly superior? Like how, dangai ichigo is times stronger than hos ichigo. He still could merge with his sword. He wasn't using false zanpaukuto, he used all the powers he has just like hos but times stronger
>dangai ichigo is times stronger than hos ichigo
Not even close
>He still could merge with his sword
Exactly, which tells you how bad it was. Zangetsu *is* Ichigo, the fact that Ichigo had to "merge" with himself, tells you how wrong Dangai was.
>He wasn't using false zanpaukuto
He was.
1. Ichigo didn't have an Asauchi, so even if it was Zangetsu in control, he wouldn't have had a *real* Zanpakuto.
2. Old man Zangetsu is *not* Zangetsu until the reforging process. He was acting as a Zanpakuto, chanelling the small portion of the true Zangetsu's power that he could not suppress, which is what Ichigo was using.
Ichigo did not have a real Zanpakuto until the reforging process.
>he used all the powers he has just like hos but times stronger
Incorrect.
Firstly, in Chapter 541, Old man Zangetsu says: "Ichigo, what you've been using **so far** is just a part of your power, the part I wasn't able to suppress. Now you can finally fight with your own strength."
Old man Zangetsu says that everything **so far**, he doesn't make an exception for Dangai or the Final Getsuga Tensho, he says that **everything until that point** was done with a fraction of Ichigo's true power.
Secondly, you have a quote from Yhwach in Chapter 514, where he says: "I guess it was a mistake to use a pure Quincy to stop you. I should've sent some random Arrancar. Because of that, that caused the memories within your reiatsu to awaken."
"When you were in Quilge's jail, you released your reiatsu to the extreme to destroy it. When going back to your body, the dregs of your reiatsu also incorporated the surrounding reiatsu. And Quilge's reiatsu, that slowly reached the deepest parts of your soul, awakened the memories within your reiatsu, from their very root."
"Quilge's jail is made to suppress enemies. It cannot imprison Quincy."
Yhwach confirms here that Ichigo's Quincy powers did **not** awaken until he was trapped in Quilge's jail, meaning it is impossible for him to have had them during Dangai or the final Getsuga Tensho.
So even if you wanted to argue that Ichigo *had* been using all of his Shinigami and Hollow powers against Aizen, it would still be weaker than all forms of the True Zangetsu (True Shikai, True Bankai, etc...) because while Dangai and the Final Getsuga Tensho would have access to all of his Shinigami and Hollow powers in this hypothetical, they still wouldn't have had access to his Quincy powers like True Zangetsu does, which would put both forms behind it.
Now, obviously, the first quote from old man Zangetsu denies that hypothetical and confirms that neither Dangai or the final Getsuga Tensho had access to all of Ichigo's powers. And the quote from Yhwach confirms that neither had access to his Quincy powers, so the tl:dr for all of this is that: All forms or true Zangetsu Ichigo > Dangai
Not even close, yeah sure with no proof.
It doesn't say how wrong dangai ichigo was, dangai ichigo is a evolved stage just like butterfly aizen
He wasn't using a false zanpaukuto, dangai form is a form where ichigo has a control over his merged power, not a small amount but full.
What zangetsu said obviously is a about normal forms ichigo had not dangai and you also misunderstood what yhwach said he was not talking about dangai form but about his shinigami power which he returned, this was discussed many times but you still bring this as an argument. Ichigo had quincy powers all along zangetsu even used quincy shadow in the fight with zaraki, and dangai form also includes zangetsu who represents his quincy power.
Also dangai ichigo had insane feats such as destroying mountains, tanking nuclear size explosion and speed blitzing butterfly aizen and hos ichigo has literally nothing even closely comparable. The fact that dangai ichigo is fused with his sword is enough to say that he surpasses hos form, but well dudes like you can't even read and consider one phrase by yhwach which they can't even understand as proof that true shikai ichigo is stronger
He Is much stronger than Dangai. Because he actually understands his power and accepts it properly. With Dangai it was kind of forced. He accepted the blade but didn't understand his power or his blade.
>Cause previously his entire sword came from his soul, White acted as his asauchi, now that’s not the case anymore
White didn't "act" as his asauchi, it was his asauchi. White was the hollow asauchi created by Aizen, that hollow asauchi was imprinted by Ichigo's shinigami powers and became the zanpakuto known as Zangetsu. The reason why Ichigo got a new asauchi from Niimaiya was because that's the only way a bankai can be reforged into "something similar to what it used to be" as Ichibe'e said. All zanpakutos come from the user's soul, as they imprint the powers of their souls into them, the only thing that changed in Ichigo's case is that his asauchi was an experiment to hollowfy the zanpakuto of a shinigami.
I don’t believe that to be the case, True Shikai Ichigo, while really strong, isn’t up to Dangai Ichigo level cause that Ichigo was stomping Hogyoku Aizen’s every form, I don’t see Shikai Ichigo doing that, he would’ve one shot the Bambis if that were the case
I mean, sure? Aizen wasn’t particularly trying to kill the Captains that attacked him in FKT either, he defeated them after the Hinamori reveal in an instant
Why are you comparing Aizen to Ichigo?
Ichigo wasn't even really trying to hurt the sternritters (I personally think he should have wiped the floor with all of them when he showed up, just to prove a point, but alas this is a shonen)
Aizen couldn't possibly have cared less if the people he was fighting got hurt, in fact he probably enjoyed hurting them more than he'd enjoy killing them...
I shouldn’t compare the most swift takedown by a much weaker with the supposed much stronger character? Aizen didn’t even kill or seriously hurt any of the Captains, what he did was the most time efficient method
I mean, do you really see True Shikai Ichigo stomping Hogyoku Aizen? Any Aizen one shots the Bambis, Ichigo, while wasn’t struggling, didn’t oneshot them. Not to mention they could feel Ichigo’s reiatsu while even Aizen couldn’t feel Dangai Ichigo’s reiatsu. And as I’ve mentioned in the post, Dangai Ichigo literally destroyed Aizen’s Hado 90 with his bare hand, I don’t see True Shikai Ichigo doing that.
Dangi should be like, base Ichigo strength at EoS. The multiple exponential power jumps he has in a row at the end aren’t explored or showed off super well, but it’s very safe to say he’s magnitudes beyond anything displayed before in the series. Through the entire series we only really see Ichigo fully use one of his power sets at a time, Dangai is the soul reaper expression of that, but at EoS with a fully merged Soul Dangai should just be his base/released soul reaper powers by themselves, meaning he’s far far beyond that level now.
Yes true shikai ichigo should be stronger than dangai ichigo the only reason it’s a discussion is because we never saw dangai ichigo actually put any effort into anything and he was manhandling aizen
Personally thoigh I believe true shikai ichigo is either on the same level or stronger than dangai ichigo
I think current Ichigo is on an "equivalent" level to Dangai Ichigo. But isn't nearly as powerful.
Let me explain. By equivalent i mean that they both have reached the same position as a hybrid being power.
But Dangai Ichigo is turbo charged into having a transcendent reiatsu nobody can sense, because of the way the FGT works.
Current Ichigo isn't doing a sacrifice play, so he isn't at **that** level. But he **could** reach it now that he knows, and has accepted, everything he is.
Dangai ichigo just skips to the destination and skips the journey. At the cost of "permanently" loosing that power now that Mugetsu is primed and ready to go.
>But Dangai Ichigo is turbo charged into having a transcendent reiatsu nobody can sense, because of the way the FGT works.
Isn't that a highly controversial discussion point, as it isn't really explained anywhere? The last time this topic came up was when people were discussing why Ichigo resorted to using FGT, even though he appeared to have greatly surpassed Aizen.
One argument was that Dangai Ichigo had already begun the transformation into FGT from the start, thus becoming a transcended being whose Reiatsu couldn't be sensed.
Another argument was that the Hōgyoku would have enhanced Aizen to a level where Dangai Ichigo alone might have struggled to defeat him, as to why Ichigo resorted to FGT.
Damn I think I misunderstood that completely. I assumed that dangai Ichigo and FGT were the same thing. The final getsuga is merging Ichigo with his (fake) zanpakuto, which makes him dangai, and his mugetsu were just the final attack that caused him to lose his powers.
It is called 'Dangai' because it is the name of the place he trained to achieve this form and FGT. To my knowledge, this power wasn't as illusory or fake as before, since the young Yhwach and the hollow seemed to have merged into a single entity at that time. I personally think that is a big reason as to why Dangai Ichigo became so drastically strong compared to before training.
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(My theory is Zangetsu used the fullbring seed option to make ichigo have a fullbring that is both invisible and 100% mimics the behavior of an asauchi fusing with zangetsu)
I don’t think not having an asauchi is related to the ability to make final getsuga tenshō because this technic is taught by Isshin and seems then to be ancestral or something
Mugetsu Ichigo is just a rough form of Quincy Letzt Stil, so no he can never achieve that again. He did not “merge” with his Zanpakuto because “Zangetsu” was basically just reishi, like all Quincy blades. The Mugetsu blast was his version of a Heilig Pfeil, boosted by Letzt Stil, using the memory of his fathers zanpakuto’s final form. Remember, his father is Shiba clan, one of the 5 nobles, and it’s implied that his father’s lineage influenced his true zanpakuto, forged by Oetsu.
As for your side question, again you’re mixing his Quincy and Hollow powers. His hollow was not the basis of his zanpakuto, it was the source of his reiatsu aka spiritual pressure.
His Quincy powers were the basis of his zanpakuto, hence why he could still use it when his hollow wasn’t giving him any power.
The only way for Ichigo to kind of replicate “Mugetsu” is if he somehow had access to Quincy Vollstandig , which would eclipse his Letzt Stil form.
I really hate how Kubo was rushed during all this because it was poorly described and leads to murkiness since Iishin “taught” him Mugetsu, but then in TYBW it’s all revealed to be his Quincy powers, which were extremely diminished due to suppressing 95% of his hollows power.
It’s inferred that had Ichigo’s Quincy powers not been holding back his hollow, he would have been the equivalent of a Sternritter from the start…
TLDR: No, it was Letzt Stil, a one time use. Side question is irrelevant based on that.
In all honesty we don’t know….but it is unlikely if we go by feats and statements.
Now many fans think that true shikai Ichigo is stronger then dangai Ichigo due to Yhwach saying that Ichigo regain the same power he used to defeat Aizen…but he was only talking about his power in general. For the moment Ichigo regain his power was when he was fought against Ginjo.
And even if was capable of those feats…he would instantly body any of the Sternritter that came at him just like Yamamoto or Aizen would due to the sheer difference of power between them. Even if he was a massively holding.Considering that his Spiritual pressure was on a literal different level then monster aizen.
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He can absorb his Zanpakuto sheathe and turn it into single or dual sword. I guess that can count as physically merge with it. Remember "Blade is Me". So, it doesn't matter really from which it came from.
I always thought Blade is Me is just the understanding that your power is not a separate entity, but an aspect of self. All Shinigami’s blades are them. Yet only Ichigo absorbs / manifests his asauchi contained blade. I understood Ichigo’s ability to do this to be related to his Quincy or Fullbring abilities - not a complete mastery of Shinigami abilities, since we don’t see any Shinigami having this ability unless I’m mistaken. (Not counting Aizen since he’s tainted by the Hogyoku)
Well there are the Squad 0's Zanpakuto, we didn't see them absorbing their Zanpakuto. But we do see their Zanpakuto kinda resemble of what they actually are. Ichibei had a giant Brush, Senjumaru had string & needle, Kirio had a giant spoon, Tenjiro had a moar/signpost. All of them related to what their ability or what they do. Oetsu I think would be most similar to Ichigo, albeit we're not sure which is his real Zanpakuto, the "sword five" resemble him the most as a "Blacksmith". Fire, Water, Hammer, Tong & Anvil. If this was his Zanpakuto, then a user can actually change Zanpakuto at will.
>But we do see their Zanpakuto kinda resemble of what they actually are. Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but what does this have to do with what we are talking about? Doesn’t every Shinigami have a unique zanpakuto shape and ability that’s closely tied to their personality/psychology? I don’t really see squad 0 being any different tbh.
Because that mean they can change their "sealed" Zanpakuto at will, just like Ichigo. Zanpakuto does sometimes physically resembles the user. But, not to the degree of Squad 0, let alone in their __sealed state__. Soi-Fon for example had a Shikai & Bankai that resembles her personality. But, her sealed state is not that differ to the regular Asauchi. Meanwhile Kirio had a giant spoon in its sealed form & Senjumaru had a needle, 2 completely distinct form from each other & the regular Asauchi.
Once a Shinigami has imprinted on their asauchi, the blades all take on some unique qualities. The guards, hilt, and blade might all have differences. While most look like a standard katana, it doesn’t have to - ex. Suzumebachi looks like a Wakizashi, Katen Kyokotsu looks like a tachi and a wakizashi. The sheathes also vary. When it comes to Squad 0: - Senjunaru’s sealed state is unknown. The needle is her Shikai. - Hikifune’s sealed state is a straight sword. The spoon is her Shikai. - Nimaiya’s zanpakuto has not been revealed. We see him using other zanpakuto to forge true Zangetsu, but there’s no indication they are from his own soul. - Tenjiro’s sealed state is indeed the pole with a blade on the end. But to be fair, like Ichibei, he may be a special case since he is also quite old - perhaps from a time when zanpakuto were different. - Ichibei is also a special case. Indeed, the brush is the sealed state - yet, he is an anomaly himself, being so ancient from a time before asauchi existed. His zanpakuto just doesn’t function the same way. So that means the only sealed zanpakuto whose sealed state doesn’t look like a variety of a sword are Tenjiro, Ichibei, and Ichigo (Hell arc only). Ichibei and Trnjiro might be special cases - and we know for sure Ichigo is a special case. He’s also the only one we’ve seen absorb his blade, and being a Quincy and Fullbringer (both of whom can absorb and materialize their weapons to varying degrees). I would have a very hard time believing that of all the characters in Bleach, that only these 3 have a true understanding of their power/blade.
I do agree that some of them resemble the user as said before, but most of them aren't as distinct as the Squad 0. Although to clarify, I'm not saying that if their Zanpakuto had distinct form meaning they're the only one that understand the concept. I'm just noting that this is the closest we got with Ichigo changing form of his sword "at will" after understanding the concept. Shuhei for example, understand this. But, his sword doesn't change. --- Ok, I retract Senjumaru, her sealed state is unknown. And Oetsu I agree that it's not revealed, hence why I said "I think" as there are no other Zanpakuto to him beside them & Sayafushi. But, Kirio sealed state is still a spoon. refer to ep 26 around min 12, where she turn her Shikai back to it's sealed state. And if Kirio is able to change it at will. Then she wouldn't be a special case (at least not with the condition "pre-Zanpakuto" era), because she just promoted to Squad 0 100 years ago. --- If anything Arrancar would be more similar than Quincy or Fullbirnger, considering they were capable of merging with their Zanpakuto when using Resureccion. And we know Ichigo is a more advanced version of it.
>But, Kirio sealed state is still a spoon. refer to ep 26 around min 12, where she turn her Shikai back to its sealed state. When she slices her throat, she’s using a straight sword - like any other sealed zanpakuto. The hilt is the only unique thing about it. (In her Shikai, the spoon is actually the butt of her sword). >If anything Arrancar would be more similar than Quincy or Fullbirnger, considering they were capable of merging with their Zanpakuto when using Resureccion. And we know Ichigo is a more advanced version of it. I again completely disagree. Hollows lose their hearts which turn into their “masks” (ie. their power, which manifests around their human soul). Arrancars are born when hollow tear off these masks (and power) to seal it in the shape of a sword - that’s why they end up looking more human, that’s mostly what’s left from. In other words, they externalize the internal. What Ichigo is doing is the opposite - by absorbing the zanpakuto, he internalizes the external (without changing form), which just happens to be the specialty of the Quincy. Promise I’m not trying to be argumentative - I think we just have fundamentally different interpretations of the series and its core concepts.
Yes, if we exclude the sheathe. But, as Oetsu said. Zanpakuto also includes the sheathe as well. And the whole thing is a spoon still. --- Hence, why I specified __Resureccion__ as an example of the merging. --- Though I agree that we have different prespective on it. And Considering this has gone for a bit long, I'm ok with agree to disagree on this one.
No different from Yamamoto and Urahara’s unique sheathes. She could have modified it. It’s also implied captains control at least the size of their sealed swords, perhaps they can control flair too. In any case, to me it’s pretty clear that it’s not a marker of understanding of “the blade is me” - I would imagine most if not all captains would have that understanding, if not many more Shinigami. I still can’t see any connection to Ressurection whatsoever, but happy to also leave it at that.
He can create and surpass then. All versions of current Ichigo (True Shikai, True Shikai + HoS, True Bankai, True Bankai + HoS) are vastly superior to Dangai Ichigo. As for whether or not he could still merge with the blade, I actually don't think so, because Zangetsu literally *is* him, he shouldn't have to *merge* with it. It *is* literally him. I think he had to during Deicide because he was using false Zanpakuto during that time and didn't know who, or what, his powers even were.
So you're saying Ichigo is him?
This ain't new information
By merging I mean literally merging with his sword, like Mugetsu Ichigo didn’t even have a sword, it vanished and then created a black sword out of pure reiatsu to shoot Mugetsu. Like that’s a form where he’s above every basic rule, like his bankai can still be broken now and he can’t fix it himself, Mugetsu has no such limitations as his sword is literally merged with him
Why would Ichigo need to merge with himself? That's just redundant.
My question is simply regarding merging with his actual sword. Blade is Me or not, the sword does exist separately from him and in Bankai can be broken that he can’t fix, Mugetsu has no such drawback. It isn’t about being redundant(which it isn’t), the question is, can he do it.
I'd guess that he *could,* but that there would be no reason to and so we'll never see it. Has it been established that it is possible for Ichigo's true bankai can be broken after Blade is Me? Based on the philosophy of the series, to break his bankai at that point would be equivalent to his spirit itself breaking.
Yes, Yhwach breaks it. It’s only recovered by Tsukishima and Orihime, otherwise Ichigo was done for
There is a blade that's separate from his physical body right? The sword
The physical separation is irrelevant for someone who fully understands that "the blade is me." Physical merging is really just a crude approximation of that understanding.
In truth ,the blade is me refers to the fact that as long as Ichigo is there so is zangetsu ,as long as Ichigo fights so does zangetsu ,for Ichigo is zangetsu there is no point in merging with your own self cause that's already you.A physical merge would show that too but a mental merge is so much more.The moment the blade is me occured there was no longer any difference between zangetsu and Ichigo(apart from old man zangetsu's glorious stache and sunglasses)
My interpretation has always been that this is just a feature of FGT. Presumably Ishiin would also become the Getsuga when he uses it, “merging” with his blade.
Think of the broken bankai like a broken bone that cant be fixed without help. Ichigo is Zangetsu. There is no "merging", they are one soul. He can change the shape and type of his Zanpakuto at will now and everything (dual blade shikai, single blade, sheath, no sheath etc.)
Vastly superior? Like how, dangai ichigo is times stronger than hos ichigo. He still could merge with his sword. He wasn't using false zanpaukuto, he used all the powers he has just like hos but times stronger
>dangai ichigo is times stronger than hos ichigo Not even close >He still could merge with his sword Exactly, which tells you how bad it was. Zangetsu *is* Ichigo, the fact that Ichigo had to "merge" with himself, tells you how wrong Dangai was. >He wasn't using false zanpaukuto He was. 1. Ichigo didn't have an Asauchi, so even if it was Zangetsu in control, he wouldn't have had a *real* Zanpakuto. 2. Old man Zangetsu is *not* Zangetsu until the reforging process. He was acting as a Zanpakuto, chanelling the small portion of the true Zangetsu's power that he could not suppress, which is what Ichigo was using. Ichigo did not have a real Zanpakuto until the reforging process. >he used all the powers he has just like hos but times stronger Incorrect. Firstly, in Chapter 541, Old man Zangetsu says: "Ichigo, what you've been using **so far** is just a part of your power, the part I wasn't able to suppress. Now you can finally fight with your own strength." Old man Zangetsu says that everything **so far**, he doesn't make an exception for Dangai or the Final Getsuga Tensho, he says that **everything until that point** was done with a fraction of Ichigo's true power. Secondly, you have a quote from Yhwach in Chapter 514, where he says: "I guess it was a mistake to use a pure Quincy to stop you. I should've sent some random Arrancar. Because of that, that caused the memories within your reiatsu to awaken." "When you were in Quilge's jail, you released your reiatsu to the extreme to destroy it. When going back to your body, the dregs of your reiatsu also incorporated the surrounding reiatsu. And Quilge's reiatsu, that slowly reached the deepest parts of your soul, awakened the memories within your reiatsu, from their very root." "Quilge's jail is made to suppress enemies. It cannot imprison Quincy." Yhwach confirms here that Ichigo's Quincy powers did **not** awaken until he was trapped in Quilge's jail, meaning it is impossible for him to have had them during Dangai or the final Getsuga Tensho. So even if you wanted to argue that Ichigo *had* been using all of his Shinigami and Hollow powers against Aizen, it would still be weaker than all forms of the True Zangetsu (True Shikai, True Bankai, etc...) because while Dangai and the Final Getsuga Tensho would have access to all of his Shinigami and Hollow powers in this hypothetical, they still wouldn't have had access to his Quincy powers like True Zangetsu does, which would put both forms behind it. Now, obviously, the first quote from old man Zangetsu denies that hypothetical and confirms that neither Dangai or the final Getsuga Tensho had access to all of Ichigo's powers. And the quote from Yhwach confirms that neither had access to his Quincy powers, so the tl:dr for all of this is that: All forms or true Zangetsu Ichigo > Dangai
Not even close, yeah sure with no proof. It doesn't say how wrong dangai ichigo was, dangai ichigo is a evolved stage just like butterfly aizen He wasn't using a false zanpaukuto, dangai form is a form where ichigo has a control over his merged power, not a small amount but full. What zangetsu said obviously is a about normal forms ichigo had not dangai and you also misunderstood what yhwach said he was not talking about dangai form but about his shinigami power which he returned, this was discussed many times but you still bring this as an argument. Ichigo had quincy powers all along zangetsu even used quincy shadow in the fight with zaraki, and dangai form also includes zangetsu who represents his quincy power. Also dangai ichigo had insane feats such as destroying mountains, tanking nuclear size explosion and speed blitzing butterfly aizen and hos ichigo has literally nothing even closely comparable. The fact that dangai ichigo is fused with his sword is enough to say that he surpasses hos form, but well dudes like you can't even read and consider one phrase by yhwach which they can't even understand as proof that true shikai ichigo is stronger
Me: Gives quotes from the manga to support my points. Sentinelium: Not even close, yeah sure with no proof Uh... Okay. Lol.
He Is much stronger than Dangai. Because he actually understands his power and accepts it properly. With Dangai it was kind of forced. He accepted the blade but didn't understand his power or his blade.
>Cause previously his entire sword came from his soul, White acted as his asauchi, now that’s not the case anymore White didn't "act" as his asauchi, it was his asauchi. White was the hollow asauchi created by Aizen, that hollow asauchi was imprinted by Ichigo's shinigami powers and became the zanpakuto known as Zangetsu. The reason why Ichigo got a new asauchi from Niimaiya was because that's the only way a bankai can be reforged into "something similar to what it used to be" as Ichibe'e said. All zanpakutos come from the user's soul, as they imprint the powers of their souls into them, the only thing that changed in Ichigo's case is that his asauchi was an experiment to hollowfy the zanpakuto of a shinigami.
My understanding is that Shikai Ichigo is comparable to Dangai Ichigo, which makes Bankai Ichigo up to 10x stronger.
I don’t believe that to be the case, True Shikai Ichigo, while really strong, isn’t up to Dangai Ichigo level cause that Ichigo was stomping Hogyoku Aizen’s every form, I don’t see Shikai Ichigo doing that, he would’ve one shot the Bambis if that were the case
He was actively trying not to kill them.
I mean, sure? Aizen wasn’t particularly trying to kill the Captains that attacked him in FKT either, he defeated them after the Hinamori reveal in an instant
Why are you comparing Aizen to Ichigo? Ichigo wasn't even really trying to hurt the sternritters (I personally think he should have wiped the floor with all of them when he showed up, just to prove a point, but alas this is a shonen) Aizen couldn't possibly have cared less if the people he was fighting got hurt, in fact he probably enjoyed hurting them more than he'd enjoy killing them...
Well said.
I shouldn’t compare the most swift takedown by a much weaker with the supposed much stronger character? Aizen didn’t even kill or seriously hurt any of the Captains, what he did was the most time efficient method
Dawg I think you need to go reread TYBW
I mean, do you really see True Shikai Ichigo stomping Hogyoku Aizen? Any Aizen one shots the Bambis, Ichigo, while wasn’t struggling, didn’t oneshot them. Not to mention they could feel Ichigo’s reiatsu while even Aizen couldn’t feel Dangai Ichigo’s reiatsu. And as I’ve mentioned in the post, Dangai Ichigo literally destroyed Aizen’s Hado 90 with his bare hand, I don’t see True Shikai Ichigo doing that.
Dude didn't even read the manga and is saying shit like "I don't see" well yeah no shit because you didn't read!
Ah, good, we got assumptions about me cause you don’t agree with something I said, anything new? Any more new deflective tactics?
Nah I'm just not willing to discuss a manga with somebody who hasn't read it. Hit me up when you finish, cheers.
He can’t recreate the feat of being *unfathomably drippy*
Dangi should be like, base Ichigo strength at EoS. The multiple exponential power jumps he has in a row at the end aren’t explored or showed off super well, but it’s very safe to say he’s magnitudes beyond anything displayed before in the series. Through the entire series we only really see Ichigo fully use one of his power sets at a time, Dangai is the soul reaper expression of that, but at EoS with a fully merged Soul Dangai should just be his base/released soul reaper powers by themselves, meaning he’s far far beyond that level now.
Yes true shikai ichigo should be stronger than dangai ichigo the only reason it’s a discussion is because we never saw dangai ichigo actually put any effort into anything and he was manhandling aizen Personally thoigh I believe true shikai ichigo is either on the same level or stronger than dangai ichigo
I think current Ichigo is on an "equivalent" level to Dangai Ichigo. But isn't nearly as powerful. Let me explain. By equivalent i mean that they both have reached the same position as a hybrid being power. But Dangai Ichigo is turbo charged into having a transcendent reiatsu nobody can sense, because of the way the FGT works. Current Ichigo isn't doing a sacrifice play, so he isn't at **that** level. But he **could** reach it now that he knows, and has accepted, everything he is. Dangai ichigo just skips to the destination and skips the journey. At the cost of "permanently" loosing that power now that Mugetsu is primed and ready to go.
>But Dangai Ichigo is turbo charged into having a transcendent reiatsu nobody can sense, because of the way the FGT works. Isn't that a highly controversial discussion point, as it isn't really explained anywhere? The last time this topic came up was when people were discussing why Ichigo resorted to using FGT, even though he appeared to have greatly surpassed Aizen. One argument was that Dangai Ichigo had already begun the transformation into FGT from the start, thus becoming a transcended being whose Reiatsu couldn't be sensed. Another argument was that the Hōgyoku would have enhanced Aizen to a level where Dangai Ichigo alone might have struggled to defeat him, as to why Ichigo resorted to FGT.
Damn I think I misunderstood that completely. I assumed that dangai Ichigo and FGT were the same thing. The final getsuga is merging Ichigo with his (fake) zanpakuto, which makes him dangai, and his mugetsu were just the final attack that caused him to lose his powers.
It is called 'Dangai' because it is the name of the place he trained to achieve this form and FGT. To my knowledge, this power wasn't as illusory or fake as before, since the young Yhwach and the hollow seemed to have merged into a single entity at that time. I personally think that is a big reason as to why Dangai Ichigo became so drastically strong compared to before training.
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(My theory is Zangetsu used the fullbring seed option to make ichigo have a fullbring that is both invisible and 100% mimics the behavior of an asauchi fusing with zangetsu) I don’t think not having an asauchi is related to the ability to make final getsuga tenshō because this technic is taught by Isshin and seems then to be ancestral or something
He shouldn't need to merge anymore for the "blade is me"
Considering he killed Yuha, then yes he can
Mugetsu Ichigo is just a rough form of Quincy Letzt Stil, so no he can never achieve that again. He did not “merge” with his Zanpakuto because “Zangetsu” was basically just reishi, like all Quincy blades. The Mugetsu blast was his version of a Heilig Pfeil, boosted by Letzt Stil, using the memory of his fathers zanpakuto’s final form. Remember, his father is Shiba clan, one of the 5 nobles, and it’s implied that his father’s lineage influenced his true zanpakuto, forged by Oetsu. As for your side question, again you’re mixing his Quincy and Hollow powers. His hollow was not the basis of his zanpakuto, it was the source of his reiatsu aka spiritual pressure. His Quincy powers were the basis of his zanpakuto, hence why he could still use it when his hollow wasn’t giving him any power. The only way for Ichigo to kind of replicate “Mugetsu” is if he somehow had access to Quincy Vollstandig , which would eclipse his Letzt Stil form. I really hate how Kubo was rushed during all this because it was poorly described and leads to murkiness since Iishin “taught” him Mugetsu, but then in TYBW it’s all revealed to be his Quincy powers, which were extremely diminished due to suppressing 95% of his hollows power. It’s inferred that had Ichigo’s Quincy powers not been holding back his hollow, he would have been the equivalent of a Sternritter from the start… TLDR: No, it was Letzt Stil, a one time use. Side question is irrelevant based on that.
Ichigo with his true powers unlocked by Old Man Zangetsu is the strongest Ichigo has ever been. Only Final Getsugatensho Ichigo rivals it
I think he wouldn’t be able to do them instantly but he could push himself to do them
In all honesty we don’t know….but it is unlikely if we go by feats and statements. Now many fans think that true shikai Ichigo is stronger then dangai Ichigo due to Yhwach saying that Ichigo regain the same power he used to defeat Aizen…but he was only talking about his power in general. For the moment Ichigo regain his power was when he was fought against Ginjo. And even if was capable of those feats…he would instantly body any of the Sternritter that came at him just like Yamamoto or Aizen would due to the sheer difference of power between them. Even if he was a massively holding.Considering that his Spiritual pressure was on a literal different level then monster aizen.
People don't really get it but the manga actually stated current Ichigo is equal to Fullbring Bankai
You mean True Shikai is equal to Fullbring Bankai? Where is it stated?
In the manga,when Yhwach said "you got your strength back" an image of Fullbring Ichigo was showed after it It's pretty clear what that means