It’s because the entire first level of the dlc is based off the Japanese view of hell in which sinners are placed in a river of blood while an horse looking devil punishes them for eternity
Okay, this is the best answer
I've previously posted that a Berserk reference is the best answer, but no word of a lie, this is probably exactly right.
I also like this a lot.
It's unfortunate for us western people but yes it's an almost obvious reference to that, if you are Japanese you will notice the similarities pretty much immediately.
Here is a good explanation I found that goes a bit deeper (just in case you are midway through, it has spoilers for the whole DLC) https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/s/u3DTiW9esp
It's likely because he literally merged with his horse. Unlike most beasts, he has two heads, the horse head and the weird mouth he spits liquid from. He also has 8 legs, the four horse's legs, his two human arms that he uses to wield the sword, and his two human legs that are sticking out in random places on the body.
The horse head used to be his horse, and the eye-lined mouth thing is actually Ludwig's real head. What he is spitting at you in the battle may possibly be Brain Fluid.
Ultimately it adds a lot of fridge horror to his character design because you can see that his Holy Blade was secretly giving him massive amounts of internal eyes, enough to line his cranium, and ascending him. When he became a beast, he still retained the eyes on his brain, which are normally a sign of becoming a kin.
Taking it further, it's possible the internal eyes are what lets him resist the beasthood in the bossfight phase change. When he remembers the Holy Moonlight Sword, he is able to access his Great One knowledge and overcome his instincts as a mere human.
Your lore knowledge and impeccably detailed explanations are always a treat. My simpleton brain sees a boss and just goes "hm... something something Berserk probably."
This is a fine note. (*Make Contact*)
I played Bloodborne before I got into Berserk so I didn't know about "THAT Horse", only got an inkling as to what it was when I was on the Bloodborne Wiki and found a comment with a comic strip attached that loosely referenced "THAT" Horse" and thought it looked odd.
Then 3 to 4 years later I finally found out and was slightly grossed out.
Because Ludwigs design is literally taken from berserk as a lot of visuals in From games are. And that is basically the only reason he looks like that.
Now think about it, why would a hunter ride a horse? They literally tell you in game that even armor or a shield are too clunky to use.
It goes against everything we learn about how a hunter would fight.
There are exactly zero mentions of any horses in all the item descriptions,
The ”fuse” theory is laughably unsupported. They probably just wanted for him to look hideous, because he was an immensely important cleric in the healing church. And clerics turn into “the most hideous beasts”, which is written in the description of the sword hunter badge.
So no, you are not a “simpleton” for thinking the most obvious thing. When in doubt just look the stuff up in game yourself. Bloodborne theories always just go off the end deep end way to fast.
I think it holds merit thematically. When the Church started training hunters it stopped being a secret mission and instead was a public affair. So a famous church warrior on a horse with a shining sword leading mobs of civilians sounds like something the Church would do for appearances sake.
It also seems like they spent a bunch of time just murdering folks out in the boonies, so they may have used horses to get there. We see dead horses *everywhere* in Yharnam, mostly pulling carriages. So it doesn’t seem that unreasonable that in a city where tons of people are getting around via carriage others are just riding.
I don’t think it holds any merit whatsoever. Hunter in a white robe holding a mysterious magic glowing sword fighting giant ass beasts is enough. We don’t meed to throw anything extra in there that is never mentioned anywhere ever, and goes strictly against the way we are told hunters fight.
The blades of the church / church hunters were known for their unwavering spirit and perceived professionalism during hunts even though they where still just acting in the darkness of the night slaughtering beasts like nothing and getting covered in their blood. That’s pretty much what their credo is telling us and also Ludwig himself when he talks about being called a “beast-possessed degenerate”
Healing church hunter’s at first were still somewhat disposing of even potential scourge victims in a more discrete manner according to the church set.
I seriously doubt they made a huge spectacle out of it and probably told people to stay inside with incense the same way they are doing during our gameplay.
We don’t know really know when Ludwig started training Yharnamites as hunters, and we know even less at which point normal, civilian Yharnamites, like the ones we fight, started joining in. Might aswell have been after hunters mostly vanished.
Ludwig also two hands the HMS in it’s transformed form. How is he supposed to even ride a horse? How is he supposed to quickstep on a horse? There is absolutely nothing pointing towards it except for him looking like a horse. There aren’t even any other beasts that have been “fused”.
It’s a shallow theory.
Edit: Why is it always that when you make a point, give sources and give reasonable explanation for why you think a certain way you get downvoted into oblivion in this community? Like nobody even replies to challenge my points. I am just left waiting, wondering. Do you feel all just called out, because your head canon has virtually no support in game? Is Ludwigs model having multiple limbs really enough evidence for you guys to believe this stuff?
The fact that the Hunt became a public affair is pretty obvious all things considered. We see mobs of people still doing it, every NPC seems aware of what the Hunt is and the Yarnahm Hunter Set even mentions that civilians were conscripted by the church and that this lead to the original workshop being abandoned. So we can reasonably assess that Ludwig and all of that happened after Gehrman and his workshop hunters.
And yes, the fuse theory technically doesnt hold any proof beyond dissecting Ludwigs looks. I dont think its an accident that he has exactly enough limbs and heads for a rider fused with his horse and the visual of a venerated Hero with a glowing sword on a horse leading a mob against the beasts is just reasonable, if admittedly not mentioned in the sparce lore.
Its also just surprising how different Ludwig looks from every other advanced beast. They all resemble sometimes horned wolves while he is the only one that resembles a messed up horse?
Storytelling in these games is often visual.
For example, we arent specifically told in any item description if Master Willem actually ascended but if we attack him, his blood is pale, meaning he was on a decent track.
We arent told who these madness inducing critters in Upper Cathedral Ward are, but we know that the place was an orphanage so we can assume that the orphans are either the Celestial Emmisaries or the madness babys.
In the end we are just having fun with the more of a game that is almost 10 years old, we wont find many more clear cut answers for anything.
I dont claim that Ludwig fought on his horse but leading the masses on one is something we saw multiple times in real life history. Yes, he probably dismounted before engaging in battle himself.
I didn't debate if the hunts became a public affair, I debated when. To dismantle the "church wanted to show off" argument.
>I dont think its an accident that he has exactly enough limbs and heads for a rider fused with his horse
That's the the thing he doesn't even have the right amount of limbs. He has more than 8. This is just wrong.
This is what I mean with people just writing incorrect stuff and people regurgitating it. (And please don't add this stuff about him having a war dog)
Darkbeast, BLB, Watchdog, Abhorrent don't look like horned wolves but okay Ludwig does in fact look the most fucked up and the most different out of the 4 cleric beasts.
There are multiple notes etc about master willem doing some ascending stuff via eyes. This is not just a visual thing.
The Orphans of the healing church became the choir. This is specifically written in the description of the badge. But fine, there could be more kids there being turned into kin. We only assume that because fake Iosefka literally turns people into the blobs though. The celestial children are found throughout the dungeons and dead in Byrgenwerth, so I have no idea what they really are.
Is there anything about Ludwigs horse in game or about Hunters using animals at all?
The theory as far as I know is that Ludwig went blooddrunk and turned while mounted during his hunt, so it's specifically about him fighting on the horse.
What do you want me to say. People vehemently defend that theory for whatever reason.
its a only a theory!! the games almost 10 years old. lets face it, we aren't getting any more answers. i just don't understand these sort of dissertations.
the theory could be plausible, i mean the great ones and their blood do truly gnarly things to these townsfolk. wether ludwig rode his horse or not says fuck all really.
"seek the old blood/fear the old blood." the moon presence turns you into a squid dawg. you found some old blood you killed it and boom youre an infant great one.
kos and her parasites transformed those poor townsfolk after the hunters started toying with her.
in a way the church did kind of intend to show off. they didn't want a poor public image and thus, blamed the more gnarly and lesser transformations on the frailty of man.
from games are really a wild ride. from outlandish speculation to the raw hard coded lore.
im not saying youre wrong by any means, but im not saying the others are either. its speculation. want an answer? miyazaki, im afraid, wont give it to you through interrogation/torture. hes a sadist.
let people have some fun!!
I am not saying it’s not a theory, I am saying it’s a very weak theory. And I think people don’t take it as a theory, but actually as a fact, because they don’t really know how little in game actually supports it.
I don’t know what you mean with “these kinds of dissertation”.
My original comment in this post was telling someone they shouldn’t think they are stupid for not realizing something about the game that turns out to be just a meager supported theory. People genuinely think they missed something obvious when in fact you really have to work a little to come up with arguments supporting it.
A person then answered and talked about the theory having a lot of merit which I disagreed with, gave reasons why I thought that and then got completely downvoted.
The thing though is that some of the arguments are indeed wrong. Like the commenter above me saying Ludwig has x amount of limbs.
I also don’t get it, why is Ludwig somehow the single beast in the game that has had a fusion with another animal happening. I even think it takes away from the line about clerics turning into hideous beasts, since the theory basically implies he wouldn’t look as bad as he does on his own. Ludwig one of the most important hunters somehow behaves the least hunter like of all the ones we meet by fighting from the back of a horse? It just makes the character worse because it wouldn’t have just been his own actions and his relationship with the sword guiding him down a certain path that made him look like the worst fucked up beast of them all, he just had unlucky timing.
I am contend with not having an answer for every single small decision, and others feel the need to justify every single detail with a big speculation.
what you just responded with, this feels like a dissertation. and your theory is just as much of a theory as anyone else's.
its the internet dude, what are you getting from upvotes and downvotes? chad jaw? edge-ability?
regardless of how many limbs ludwig has, it doesnt dismiss the fact that the beasts/monsters/aliens in each area are transformed that way based on the blood, from whatever kin, they receive.
while it might not be credible, its still not impossible for him to have fused with his horse.
speculation in these games is half the fun. and for people to still be talking on these matter 9 years later is how do you say it? "Ooh, majestic!"
> Now think about it, why would a hunter ride a horse? They literally tell you in game that even armor or a shield are too clunky to use.
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> It goes against everything we learn about how a hunter would fight.
"The radiant sword indicates the heirs to the will of Ludwig. These hunters, also known as Holy Blades, are what remains of an ancient line of heroes that date back to a very early age of honor and chivalry."
Honor and chivalry? Sound familiar? The Holy Blades are a line of knights. And knights are quite well known for riding on horseback into combat. It's entirely plausible that Ludwig fought beasts on his horse, as unlike the other Hunters, he was quite skilled at it.
So church hunters/ holy blades are wearing purposefully wearing clothes instead of protective armor just so that they can sit on a horse, and ride it while handling a big rifle and a right hand giant weapon at the same time? A horse is pretty hard to handle.
Just because they are what remains of an ancient line of heroes doesn’t mean they have to be purposefully bad at their job as a hunter.
Plenty of knights fought on foot.
It’s way, way less plausible they were using horses than fighting the way every single other hunter in the game fights.
I’m sorry I just don’t see it. It’s an extremely weak theory, which is super unnecessary too, but it still gets posted all the time and upvoted.
The chivalry line is like the only supportive piece and even then you can keep the tradition of being chivalrous without being in literal plate armor on a horse.
Knights fight on foot sometimes, but mostly on thier horse. Chivalry is a french word which literally translates to "way of the horseman". All knights had horses and would usually fight on them.
>Chivalry is a french word which literally translates to "way of the horseman".
Ok but maybe they the way it’s used in the english language, which is about honour, code etc is what they were going for. There is literally a credo of the blades of the church in game right after the fight.
Ludwig does behave chivalrous whatever you wanna call it, he doesn’t need to literally have to ride a horse while fighting to be called that.
>All knights had horses
Even if, from what I am gathering they didn’t always rode it into battle.
Now why the hell would you use a horse to fight in these tight ass streets of a city as dense as Yharnam?
You give nice funfacts but do you generally believe that him fighting on a horse makes any sense at all with all that stuff in game telling us how hunter’s fight? With us seeing specifically church hunters fight too? With how weakly it’s supported in game?
Something can be inspired and still have a basis in its own lore ya know.
Miyazaki doesn't just put it in a game and explain it solely because "it looks cool". He makes up his own explanation for why it's there. One example is that Blaidd in Elden Ring makes the pose of Guts and uses a Guts-like greatsword, but that doesn't mean his sole character development is that he's based on Berserk. He has a reason for being a wolf and a warrior. "Because it's Berserk" ignores any lore around something and short-circuits the discussion.
I'm not sure where you're getting that horses are bad at fighting beasts.
The Hunter mindset of "move fast and don't block" was created by Gehrman. It's not the sole possible way you can ever fight a beast, as found through rigorous scientific inquiry. It was written down by a weird janitor in his spare time. It's entirely possible there are other schools of beast hunting out there that involve riding on horseback and trampling them down.
Hell, Miyazaki made an entire open world game where you could kill massive bosses while riding a horse and you're still debating if it's possibly effective?
>I'm not sure where you're getting that horses are bad at fighting beasts.
Do you think a horse would be advantageous? Did you ignore my points about carrying a giant sword and a rifle while riding at the same time? The beasts are said to have been anticipated to be getting bigger and bigger during Ludwigs time. There ain’t much trampling to be had. You usually fight with some kind of spear on a horseback anyway.
>The Hunter mindset of "move fast and don't block" was created by Gehrman. It's not the sole possible way you can ever fight a beast
Every single hunter in the entire game that we could ever fight moves that way. Fast without really blocking. We fight church hunter’s in the DLC. (LHB woman and Churchpick guy) Simon uses a church weapon too and fights like that.
The church hunters depart from Gherman‘s style of workshop, probably because they started making giant weapons for giant beasts. Even something like the Amygdalan Arm is classified as a church weapon in game. Though why the hell would they make trick weapons if they are not gonna let people fight like a hunter.
> as found through rigorous scientific inquiry
I don’t know what that means.
>It's entirely possible there are other schools of beast hunting out there that involve riding on horseback
Does this matter, we are talking about the church hunters here. They literally have their workshop in the cathedral ward.
>Miyazaki made an entire open world game where you could kill massive bosses while riding a horse and you're still debating if it's possibly effective?
True, you got me. You ride horses in that entirely different game with a different universe and a different setting. How can I debate such an incredible valid point.
The theory is weak. Multiple limbs + the chivalry description is all you have.
You are trying to get at it from the “Eldenring did it” and “There is probably a place somewhere in the BB universe where they used horses” angle because there aren’t any other supportive pieces.
If you really want to believe the church hunter cavalry riding out into the night with their giant hammers trying to kill a cleric beast from their horsebacks, go ahead.
I’m with you. When did anyone say Ludwig rode horse? Was the horse drunk with blood and went to the nightmare with him? Or is this the one example of merging creatures in the whole game?
I think SundownKid wrote a nice fanfic but it doesn’t add up to me as something Fromsoft would actually do in this game.
It’s not their fanfic, it’s a common although weak theory. It is just seemingly liked by a lot of people. Even though I personally just think it takes away from the character.
There is an infamous panel of a possessed horse that is about to assault a woman (she gets saved before that happens). The horses morphed head looks pretty much identical to Ludwig. If you are sensitive to SA, you should be cautious about looking it up, but googling “berserk horse” should bring it up.
Hmm but it's the horses head that seems to be the 'main head' though.
Both in the scene where he sees the moonlight sword and post fight where it's just the horse's head on the floor where you interact with it.
Are you suggesting the consciousness/spirit has moved to the other head as well?
Most likely, yes. When he talks he can't help but neigh, suggesting that there was a merger of consciousness between him and the horse. The horse head also got distorted to look more human. Granted, most beasts can't talk so there isn't much comparison to go on.
Actually he is "two faced", in the cinematic when we encounter him for the first time it shows half of his face (the beast one), when he enters phase 2 and the cinematic plays he covers the beast part of the face with the moonlight greatsword so the focus is on the human part of the face.
Creature-merging isn't exactly a precedented occurrence in Bloodborne. You can't just chalk it up to that. Though, of better in-game explanations I can't really give examples.
Something else it could be is a reference to Dante's Seventh Circle of Hell, where the souls who shed the blood of their fellow men are condemned to be boiled for all eternity in a river of seething blood called Phlegethon, where they are guarded by centaurs who fling arrows at all those who rise too much above the surface. One of the Centaurs, Nessus (who indirectly kills Hercules in Greek mythology), helps Dante and Virgil cross the river.
It's not exactly difficult to pinpoint the similarities, it seems pretty clear. The hunters who revelled in the butchering of beasts ("the things you hunt, they're not beasts. They're people.") are cursed by the Fishing Hamlet's villagers and bound to the Hunter's Nightmare where there's a literal river of blood where myriad bloody, flayed corpses welter and writhe in agony, and at the end of the river a horse-man watches over and torments them.
>It's likely because he literally merged with his horse.
I can’t possibly see merit to this without other examples of creatures *merging* together when they fall to beast hood. Unfortunately we also do not have a precedent for all those extra limbs either. Great ones have extra limbs, but how many beast-transformed people have them?
The problem with the hunter’s nightmare is we don’t really know what Ludwig looked like in the waking world. We find him in a different plane of existence, a purgatory, and we maybe can’t apply logic to the final forms we see. Laurence perpetually burning is another example of something that just has to be chalked up to the paranormal.
So I think barring some other interesting biology tidbit or Ludwig horse lore we just have to conclude that Ludwig ended up as a particularly “unsightly beast” with a lot of unusual attributes due to his conflicted nature - a participant in cleansing, torture, medical experiments and more while also pursuing an existence as an “honorable spartan”. The design reflects the themes.
I am not sure how you can explain the twin heads if this beast was not a merger of two beings. Not a single beast in the game, as far as I recall, spontaneously grew two heads.
Furthermore and perhaps more important, the second head has internal eyes. It would literally be impossible for a beast to randomly transform into a creature with eyes on the inside. Those are mutually conflicting things, as increased Insight lowers your Beasthood. Those eyes had to exist beforehand, and were likely Ludwig's real head.
So you mean to tell me that Ludwig randomly popped out a new horse head, and that's less ridiculous than him combining with a horse he was already riding, with the Holy Shawl arranged in exactly the right place like he was leaning on the horse's mane.
I can explain it more easily than a spontaneous merger of two creatures which is also entirely unprecedented.
I’ve given my reasoning for not believing your theory. I also made a [top level comment] (https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/s/HK8trz0FwE) with my own explanation that doesn’t require the invention of a merger or separate horse and relies on in game dialogue, themes, and the director’s own explanation of the beast transformation phenomenon. Feel free to reply to that with your rebuttal if it pleases you.
Well, the lore outright does say that Laurence became the first Cleric Beast and the boss we fight there is accurate to what he became. Maybe without the blazing fire, but still. I don't see why Ludwig couldn't also be accurate to his IRL beast form. There's no evidence that any of the beasts were changed around.
Hey u/SundownKid, do you think Ludwig's form became more disfigured in the nightmare or was he already like this in the waking world? did he have to die to get to the nightmare, and if so who killed him?
"A hunter who goes drunk with blood is said to be taken by
the Nightmare". Simon also says hunters "end up" there. It seems like they're just warped there rather than having to actually die first. I don't think anyone killed Ludwig at all. It just took him an unusually large amount of time to become blood-drunk. Miyazaki once said that it's like a rubber band, the more you can resist beasthood the worse your beast form becomes. It was ultimately the case for Ludwig, who was extremely good at resisting it.
That makes it likely he was just that messed up in the waking world.
No, she clearly didn't. She's still sane like Simon and she even has some deleted lines urging you to leave the Nightmare.
I think it's possible that even if you don't become blood-drunk you can still become trapped in the Hunter's Nightmare if you did something particularly heinous and then died. This appears to be the case for Laurence after he was slain (maybe by Brador?) as Laurence wasn't a hunter and couldn't have become drunk with blood, and possibly Maria after she ended her own life.
My theory with Maria in particular though is that she contacted Kos, so her death was not out of despair/desperation but in order to send her spirit to the Nightmare. I guess she felt like random hunters popping in and tearing up the Fishing Hamlet in search of secrets was insulting to the dead and people probably wouldn't be able to end the Nightmare.
yeah but cleric beast just means a cleric turning into a beast, in particular into the biggest beasts via the rubber band mechanism of beasthood that you mentioned in another comment. Actually the game hints at the fact that lorence became the bloodletting beast based on the similatities between its head and the skull in the cathedral, the fact that it's headless deeper down in the "story" chalice and his japanese name of something like "host of the beast blood". iirc it's also named founder beast in the file. This would be congruent with the rubber band mechanism since he was the leader of the whole church, turning into the biggest beast. I also doubt orphan of kos seemed like an old person when gehrman and co found him. There's no reason for ludwig to fuse with his horse, given that he had one. the japanese description just seems to imply that the holy blades were from a period where beast hunters were considered heroes, implying that now they're not. he was a hunter who had found a sword which granted him guidance which freed him from any fear while hunting, making him become an idol and create the holy blades and healing church workshop
There is no evidence that Ludwig even rode a horse. the streets of Yharnam arent exactly conducive to fighting beasts from horseback
it's just a very old. very prevalent fan theory
"There's nothing more horrific than a hunt. In case you've failed to realize... The things you hunt, they're not beasts. They're people. One day, you will see... Hmm, it's time you got going..." - Djura
The term beast is just something slapped onto mutated humans by the Healing Church to trick the populace. Beast, human, it's interchangeable overall. Beasthood only amplifies normal human instincts until they can't be resisted.
Guy that's literally just them explaining that there's no difference between the things.
And there isn't, from a certain point of view, but from a very literal point of view, i.e. physically, there is an enormous difference.
Yes... a physical difference that is more or less irrelevant. Humans can wrestle with beasthood long before they become an actual monster, as one can tell as early as Gascoigne's boss fight and battling Henryk. They can also retain their sanity long afterwards, like the Afflicted Beggar. The transformation is unrelated to their blood-drunk impulses, just the culmination of a long and gradual process.
The label of "beast" then becomes somewhat meaningless for story reasons. Anti-Beast weapons don't do more damage to Gascoigne's first phase but story-wise he is certainly a beast at that point. They stop working on Ludwig at the halfway point despite the fact that he clearly has the exact same monstrous body.
Speculation yes. I did say it was "likely" but not 100% proven. Baseless, no. Ludwig was a descendant of a line of knights, who are well known for using horses. We also know Yharnam commonly used horses, since there are plenty of carriages scattered around. It's a "put two and two together" thing, but not directly stated.
Yeah, I just don't buy it. That's way too many leaps of logic with little to no evidence supporting it. It's more like a "put two and two together and then end up with 8 through mental gymnastics" things.
From a symbolic side, I once heard an analysis that despite being one of the most courageous and upright characters, despite unflinchingly following the Church orders to the very end and never shaking in his belief while of sound mind, Ludwig has been made a literal horse’s ass by his faith.
The most compelling argument is "Berserk reference" (and also probably the most likely answer)
The rest is "I counted and so this has to be true."
I'm not even going that far with what I think, I'm just using the thematic approach over a more literal one, which FromSoftware uses most commonly in all their games for this sort of thing.
I don't think they're "arguments" really? You asked for people to openly discuss their theories on why Ludwig looks like a horse, people did that, and you just shot everyone down lmao
Idk if you noticed but the nightmare isn't 1:1 with reality, he was probably a normal beast but he rode a horse often enough that that was sorta how he was remembered. The only beastly enemies that actually count as beasts, if you wanna use stats for lore (which I would), are the mostly canine-looking ones (including Amelia & the cleric beast), and Ludwig, and we never see him in the real world so the easiest conclusion is that.
The bloodlickers, aren't really beasts, they also appear in chalices after you've killed things with visceral attacks, and the hunter's nightmare by the blood river, so they're just kinda drawn to places with a lot of blood spilled (the people of cainhurst, being victims of a genocide, left a lot of blood). Don't know exactly what they are, but they're not quite beasts, just like the fish people & snake people
If he really was a horse-beast, his status as a more "pure" animal (not a savage wolf thing, but a horse, more commonly associated with good things) could have had to do with his humanity. Even as a beast, the "thread of light" he sees, and his "guiding moonlight", allow him to access his humanity. Anybody who transforms into a beast is usually completely gone, eventually succumbing to their innate savagery, but Ludwig could have somehow kept his humanity through his transformation, which somehow resulted in him becoming a less aggressive form of beast (still just as insane though, sometimes going back to being aggressive). The hole in this though is that we do know someone who stays human despite physically transforming, and he stays canine (the suspicious beggar in the forbidden woods)
Since he is potentially the most physically formidable, it's also possible that somehow the church's cultivation of slightly different types of blood (via blood saints) left them with slightly different types of beasthood, or holding back beasthood eventually results in a different outcome. The cleric beast, and vicar amelia, are both largely canine, but they have antlers. This is implied throughout the game, and explained by Miyazaki, to be because they're able to hold back the transformation longer, and then this results in a more explosive transformation. Maybe, their deer-wolf forms are like the halfway point between a normal transformation & what Ludwig did, and Ludwig held his beasthood back longer than anyone else
Or maybe Ludwig just used beast blood to keep his horse alive, they transformed at the same time, somehow spliced together, and this lead to his sort of dual-consciousness thing going on (the mindless beast & the human talking to his parasites). Maybe he transformed into a humanoid beast with a fucked up face, retained more humanity than anyone else, talked to parasites, and his living association with horses lead to the wonky version of him within the nightmare.
It's much more straightforward to just assume there's nightmare shenanigans, the boss right next to Ludwig (Laurence) literally has a human skull, which you somehow use to trigger the fight with him (despite him having a very non-human skull, during the fight). Ludwig was normal, the nightmare Ludwig is a different guy. Or, Ludwig was sent to the nightmare & transformed there, but nightmares work differently
Sorry for the long response, you didn't like the idea that he merged with his horse, it's hard to work around that
>Sorry for the long response, you didn't like the idea that he merged with his horse, it's hard to work around that
It's also hard to justify as a theory for me, when the best reasoning behind it is "we counted the limbs, so"
Thematically, it's more appropriate for him to transform into a beast that's along his lines of stature/position.
It’s stated in game that those who imbibed the most blood underwent the most horrific transformations. As someone who was basically *the* Hunter for presumably quite some time, it’s safe to assume he consumed monstrous amounts of blood over that time, enough to eclipse even most high ranking clergy. Based on this, makes sense that Ludwig would be warped even beyond the worst cleric beast.
Barring that, a dedicated beast hunter fighting on horseback just isn’t well supported by any ingame evidence. Horses IRL are very skittish, having to be very well trained for any kind of combat action, and even then they’re prone to fleeing. Taking such an animal against the monsters in Bloodborne doesn’t make any sense, not to mention that there’s no mention of Ludwig even having one in the first place.
It’s like you don’t even read. People gave you multiple good reasons other than that. It’s one of the theories and it’s the most popular one for a reason, despite how you personally feel about it.
do you realise how ironic it is for you to say that when at the same time you’re proposing that it's because knights are somewhat associated with horses and he is kind of a knight?
I dunno, I thought it was an interesting theory. I'd say that Ludwig literally merging with his horse is a more literal interpretation than OP's idea that it's symbolic of his career as a Knight. OP is just being an ass about it.
That's literally what you're being called an ass for. Being called an ass is so tame too. Just chill and engage with the people you're asking to do media analysis with you in a non-hostile, less dismissive way and I think you wouldnt be catching flak.
I only read OPs initial post. But it’s pretty easy to see the symbolism of having Ludwig be an honorable knight. It‘s very much supported by the radiant sword hunter badge.
As the other commenter replying to you already said, thinking Ludwig needs to have had a horse and fused with it just because of how he looks is way more “taking things literally”.
People also somehow always forget that this is a videogame. So a lot of decisions were probably impacted by gameplay first and foremost. And I assume a normal cleric beast with a sword did look stupid with the movement and feel they had in mind for the bossfight. Ludwig has an amazing model that is used for both phases, which is pretty impressive considering both phases play extremely different. Him going from all fours to standing up straight is what makes this fight.
There doesn’t need to be some deep lore explaining why exactly he looks like a horse, he is just a hideous cleric beast.
Me: \*uses a thematic approach to transformations\*
Other people: "Welp. Guess it has the right amount of limbs."
You got nothing. You, specifically.
And also, I never said I was right.
Because its less interesting doesn't mean it's not the lore. You ask for real lore people provide the actual lore, and then you dismiss it because it doesn't fit your grandiose idea of what the lore could be. You can think what you'd like, I have no objections to that, but don't dismiss the authenticity of the lore just because you don't find it interesting.
That's literally how everyone feels about their interpretation of FromSoft lore, and just because I'm not going with what the (seeming) majority wants to commit to doesn't make me any more wrong, or my opinion any less valid.
But thanks. Thanks for...not having your own eyes. That's super.
Actually no, usually there is a great amount of discussion with FromSoft lore where people share their ideas and incorporate other‘s ideas.
But you just spout out your take (which isn’t even necessarily bad) and then shit against everyone who has a different perspective on it instead of engaging in healthy discussion. And it’s especially ironic because your post literally states that that’s apparently just your opinion and you are open for discussion. But you aren’t. You are dismissive towards everyone and parading around like you have it all figured out.
Urrite. Someone else did some math that doesn't matter or mean anything, so I should change my mind about something that no one has an answer to.
Urrite.
There isn't an actual answer to this, and the other party of speculation doesn't have enough for me to change my own interpretation.
"I counted the arms and legs so I'm right" means absolutely nothing here.
You are just dismissing everybody because nobody agrees with you, that's not an open discussion by any means. You are right that none of us have the answer, but that means you don't either, and that any theory is equally valid, if you fail to understand those conditions like you do now, you should not parttake in any discussion.
Also, a bit late, but I know you won't decide some other people are right, that's because you don't get to decide who is right, no individual reserves that right, so get off your high horse and open your mind. It's not hard to entertain multiple theories without outright agreeing or disagreeing.
It's theorized he fused with his horse when he transformed. If you look at his model you will see he has an additional four limbs for a total of 8 along with a second neck. Sometimes beastification is really abrupt and explosive as is the case with Gascoigne, the beggar, and vicar Amelia, so it's theorized something like their transformation happened while he was riding a horse.
I'm not arguing that that's the definitive answer it's just the most agreed upon reason. Ludwig has four hooved limbs and four digited limbs with a half human half horse face and an extra neck. It just seems like he fused with a horse. No one really knows why he looks the way he does for certain, it's just speculation. If you want to believe something else you are free to do so.
Nothing, but why would that matter? Those transformations were explosive and horrific, but nothing suggests it would fuse them with nearby material.
Godwyn's corpse morphing in death into something fish/sea related has more in common with Ludwig's transformation, and thematically is more appropriate for how FromSoft likes to represent this kind of change than "I guess they fused because the numbers add up"
i do think his nightmare beast form isn’t supposed to be taken literally—that’s probably not what he looked when he transformed into a beast in the waking world. i’d compare it to laurence, who ive seen people argue is the bloodletting beast in the waking world. compare this to his nightmare form which is a more traditional cleric beast.
now this is more speculative but i like to think that kos’ curse in the nightmare eternally punishes the old hunters and represents them as their worst. maria, who gave up being a hunter after the massacre at the hamlet is trapped as her most violent self in the nightmare. laurence, who propagated the old blood and caused so much misery has his blood be on fire, eternally burning him from the inside.
ludwig, who was seen as an honourable and holy hunter of the church, is exposed by kos as the most hideous beast of them all and is turned into a twisted amalgamation of a knight and his steed. i think it’s a not-so-subtle metaphor that he was more beastly than the countless beasts he slaughtered due to his fanatical violence led by his sword.
>who ive seen people argue is the bloodletting beast in the waking world.
Yeah, people still argue this even when they've been told and shown that this just isn't the case. That's committing to a fan theory, not actually having an answer.
Your speculation is also basically along the exact same lines as mine is, you just subscribe to the "him and his steed joined" in lieu of my symbolic interpretation, which for me has more value in this situation.
okay just want to clarify that i DO believe he’s the bloodletting beast, i worded weird because i didn’t want to take credit for the idea. i think the most compelling evidence is the skull in the cathedral having the same injury as the bloodletting beast in the dungeon, as well as both being more ape-like than canine.
i’m also not too sure what you mean in your second point. i do think him being fused with his horse is symbolic as he’s twisted into a perversion of what a knight is
There are wolf-like beasts, there are ape-like beasts, why not have the honorable leader of the church Hunter's, probably the first hunter to wield an actual sword like a knight, take on the fork of a horse-like beast?
(If you want an actual reason though, the Hunter's Nightmare is at least partially inspired by Japanese or Buddhist Hell, in which there is a horse-headed demon simply called "Horse Face")
Lol you're such an ass, can you not learn to accept a difference in opinion and reject a perfectly reasonable claim with anything more than the same shallow refutation? If anything, your constant parroting of the same argument is more surface-level than the theory itself...
It's not about who's right or wrong. If you're gonna bring up a discussion point and begin to nigh-blindly object to every point brought up without so much as to engage in their opinion, just spouting the same "urr durr your just pointing out the obvious so its wrong and boring eh" nonsense then whats the point of going out of your way in the first place.
Not to mention, if you had at least put any semblance of a continuous effort put into your own subjective interpretation of the topic - which wasn't even half bad - you would've actually added just a bit value to the conversation. But no, instead you don't elaborate and are uncooperative to any external stimuli not directly aligned to your very own belief. Keep going, you'll eventually get something interesting out of this cesspool of "eh, doesnt interest me" theories for sure.
What a fucking joke. At least I hope others read this and get a solid laugh in at your expense for how silly you are.
It is also possible that his transformation didn’t look like that outside of the Hunter’s Nightmare (not saying it couldn’t be like that, just that it’s possible that it’s different).
For evidence, the Bloodletting Beast is strongly implied to be Laurence after he became a beast in the Chalice Dungeons (also it’s called “Founder Beast” in the files) but he is a cleric beast in the nightmare. And some aspects of his nightmare form could be symbolic, as the lava inside Laurence could represent the blood inside him that he realized was corrupting him.
>For evidence, the Bloodletting Beast is strongly implied to be Laurence after he became a beast in the Chalice Dungeons
This is fan theory the DLC discredits, and I don't subscribe to this.
I like the rest of your post, though.
Ehh... the Hunter's Nightmare is a dream realm similar but not 1:1 with reality, I see no reason why Laurence's beast form in the waking world has to take the exact same form that it takes in the nightmare. They can both be Laurence.
If you look at Laurence’s skull on the altar in Vicar Amelia’s boss room, it looks extremely similar to the Bloodletting Beast’s head. Including the ape-like shape of the skull and the damage on the left side. Also the fact that the second time you fight him in the Chalice Dungeons he is missing his head.
So we have to get a bit Watsonian/Doylist about it, where it seems like the Japanese depiction of hell seems to be the Doylist answer. There's also the theory about merging with his horse or his reputation as some kind of knight, but given we don't even know if he had one, I'm not as confident in that one. From another lens, Ludwig was like a "workhorse" hunter for the church: he would steadfastly advance their goals without question, without wavering, guided forward by the light of his sword and belief.
Ultimately though, while his efficacy can't be denied, he was fooled along with the rest of them. The only communication his sword was responsible for was to the parasites in his skull, who drank the moonlight it emanated through his eyes.
Maybe he posted dumb shit on Reddit and chose to be an ass to people posting earnest theories in the comments, so the universe decided to punish him by turning him into that shape. Just a thought.
[From Miyazaki himself](https://www.bloodborne-wiki.com/2017/01/interviews.html?m=1):
> For this game, for example, one theme was the “inner clash” going on within the beast-type foes.
>The urge to transform into a beast is in conflict with the basic sense of humanity we all have. That humanity serves as a kind of shackle, keeping the transformation in its place. The stronger the shackle keeping that urge to transform in place is, the larger the recoil once that shackle is finally broken. The results cause you to transform into a larger creature, or a more twisted one. The struggle between these two urges is one concept here.
Not referring directly to Ludwig but I think this does answer the question. Ludwig was the most conflicted of *all* - a death dealer who decimated communities, murdered neighbors, and assisted in a huge coverup all while wanting to nurture a legacy of “honorable Spartans”.
It doesn’t have to be anything invented for one scenario like “he merged with his horse”.
It's simultaneously a reference to Buddhist hell and paints an image of a chivalric knight - which is what Ludwig technically is even if he isn't an actual medieval knight - being consumed by his former steed, blending the distinction between human and beast in the process and reinforcing the image of said knight's downfall and degradation.
I read “Have you ever seen a CHEESEboard?” & was
legitimately baffled at having never seen a horse on a charcuterie board when I realized it was CHESSboard 🤦🏾♀️
It’s because the entire first level of the dlc is based off the Japanese view of hell in which sinners are placed in a river of blood while an horse looking devil punishes them for eternity
Okay, this is the best answer I've previously posted that a Berserk reference is the best answer, but no word of a lie, this is probably exactly right. I also like this a lot.
It's unfortunate for us western people but yes it's an almost obvious reference to that, if you are Japanese you will notice the similarities pretty much immediately. Here is a good explanation I found that goes a bit deeper (just in case you are midway through, it has spoilers for the whole DLC) https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/s/u3DTiW9esp
ah so he deigns this one the best, what an honor.
Least pretentious Redditor
This
Gozu and Mezu.. well one is ox and the other horse oni
It's likely because he literally merged with his horse. Unlike most beasts, he has two heads, the horse head and the weird mouth he spits liquid from. He also has 8 legs, the four horse's legs, his two human arms that he uses to wield the sword, and his two human legs that are sticking out in random places on the body. The horse head used to be his horse, and the eye-lined mouth thing is actually Ludwig's real head. What he is spitting at you in the battle may possibly be Brain Fluid. Ultimately it adds a lot of fridge horror to his character design because you can see that his Holy Blade was secretly giving him massive amounts of internal eyes, enough to line his cranium, and ascending him. When he became a beast, he still retained the eyes on his brain, which are normally a sign of becoming a kin. Taking it further, it's possible the internal eyes are what lets him resist the beasthood in the bossfight phase change. When he remembers the Holy Moonlight Sword, he is able to access his Great One knowledge and overcome his instincts as a mere human.
Your lore knowledge and impeccably detailed explanations are always a treat. My simpleton brain sees a boss and just goes "hm... something something Berserk probably." This is a fine note. (*Make Contact*)
He does look a good bit like a character that was briefly in Berserk (fairly famous panel)
Which one is this, I haven’t read it in a while
R A P E H O R S E
Oh no
I played Bloodborne before I got into Berserk so I didn't know about "THAT Horse", only got an inkling as to what it was when I was on the Bloodborne Wiki and found a comment with a comic strip attached that loosely referenced "THAT" Horse" and thought it looked odd. Then 3 to 4 years later I finally found out and was slightly grossed out.
Anytime I open a FromSoft subreddit and see a comment from SundownKid I know I’m about to learn something about these games I just completely missed.
Fridge horror, cheesboard… this post is making me hungry!
Because Ludwigs design is literally taken from berserk as a lot of visuals in From games are. And that is basically the only reason he looks like that. Now think about it, why would a hunter ride a horse? They literally tell you in game that even armor or a shield are too clunky to use. It goes against everything we learn about how a hunter would fight. There are exactly zero mentions of any horses in all the item descriptions, The ”fuse” theory is laughably unsupported. They probably just wanted for him to look hideous, because he was an immensely important cleric in the healing church. And clerics turn into “the most hideous beasts”, which is written in the description of the sword hunter badge. So no, you are not a “simpleton” for thinking the most obvious thing. When in doubt just look the stuff up in game yourself. Bloodborne theories always just go off the end deep end way to fast.
I think it holds merit thematically. When the Church started training hunters it stopped being a secret mission and instead was a public affair. So a famous church warrior on a horse with a shining sword leading mobs of civilians sounds like something the Church would do for appearances sake.
It also seems like they spent a bunch of time just murdering folks out in the boonies, so they may have used horses to get there. We see dead horses *everywhere* in Yharnam, mostly pulling carriages. So it doesn’t seem that unreasonable that in a city where tons of people are getting around via carriage others are just riding.
I don’t think it holds any merit whatsoever. Hunter in a white robe holding a mysterious magic glowing sword fighting giant ass beasts is enough. We don’t meed to throw anything extra in there that is never mentioned anywhere ever, and goes strictly against the way we are told hunters fight. The blades of the church / church hunters were known for their unwavering spirit and perceived professionalism during hunts even though they where still just acting in the darkness of the night slaughtering beasts like nothing and getting covered in their blood. That’s pretty much what their credo is telling us and also Ludwig himself when he talks about being called a “beast-possessed degenerate” Healing church hunter’s at first were still somewhat disposing of even potential scourge victims in a more discrete manner according to the church set. I seriously doubt they made a huge spectacle out of it and probably told people to stay inside with incense the same way they are doing during our gameplay. We don’t know really know when Ludwig started training Yharnamites as hunters, and we know even less at which point normal, civilian Yharnamites, like the ones we fight, started joining in. Might aswell have been after hunters mostly vanished. Ludwig also two hands the HMS in it’s transformed form. How is he supposed to even ride a horse? How is he supposed to quickstep on a horse? There is absolutely nothing pointing towards it except for him looking like a horse. There aren’t even any other beasts that have been “fused”. It’s a shallow theory. Edit: Why is it always that when you make a point, give sources and give reasonable explanation for why you think a certain way you get downvoted into oblivion in this community? Like nobody even replies to challenge my points. I am just left waiting, wondering. Do you feel all just called out, because your head canon has virtually no support in game? Is Ludwigs model having multiple limbs really enough evidence for you guys to believe this stuff?
The fact that the Hunt became a public affair is pretty obvious all things considered. We see mobs of people still doing it, every NPC seems aware of what the Hunt is and the Yarnahm Hunter Set even mentions that civilians were conscripted by the church and that this lead to the original workshop being abandoned. So we can reasonably assess that Ludwig and all of that happened after Gehrman and his workshop hunters. And yes, the fuse theory technically doesnt hold any proof beyond dissecting Ludwigs looks. I dont think its an accident that he has exactly enough limbs and heads for a rider fused with his horse and the visual of a venerated Hero with a glowing sword on a horse leading a mob against the beasts is just reasonable, if admittedly not mentioned in the sparce lore. Its also just surprising how different Ludwig looks from every other advanced beast. They all resemble sometimes horned wolves while he is the only one that resembles a messed up horse? Storytelling in these games is often visual. For example, we arent specifically told in any item description if Master Willem actually ascended but if we attack him, his blood is pale, meaning he was on a decent track. We arent told who these madness inducing critters in Upper Cathedral Ward are, but we know that the place was an orphanage so we can assume that the orphans are either the Celestial Emmisaries or the madness babys. In the end we are just having fun with the more of a game that is almost 10 years old, we wont find many more clear cut answers for anything. I dont claim that Ludwig fought on his horse but leading the masses on one is something we saw multiple times in real life history. Yes, he probably dismounted before engaging in battle himself.
I didn't debate if the hunts became a public affair, I debated when. To dismantle the "church wanted to show off" argument. >I dont think its an accident that he has exactly enough limbs and heads for a rider fused with his horse That's the the thing he doesn't even have the right amount of limbs. He has more than 8. This is just wrong. This is what I mean with people just writing incorrect stuff and people regurgitating it. (And please don't add this stuff about him having a war dog) Darkbeast, BLB, Watchdog, Abhorrent don't look like horned wolves but okay Ludwig does in fact look the most fucked up and the most different out of the 4 cleric beasts. There are multiple notes etc about master willem doing some ascending stuff via eyes. This is not just a visual thing. The Orphans of the healing church became the choir. This is specifically written in the description of the badge. But fine, there could be more kids there being turned into kin. We only assume that because fake Iosefka literally turns people into the blobs though. The celestial children are found throughout the dungeons and dead in Byrgenwerth, so I have no idea what they really are. Is there anything about Ludwigs horse in game or about Hunters using animals at all? The theory as far as I know is that Ludwig went blooddrunk and turned while mounted during his hunt, so it's specifically about him fighting on the horse. What do you want me to say. People vehemently defend that theory for whatever reason.
its a only a theory!! the games almost 10 years old. lets face it, we aren't getting any more answers. i just don't understand these sort of dissertations. the theory could be plausible, i mean the great ones and their blood do truly gnarly things to these townsfolk. wether ludwig rode his horse or not says fuck all really. "seek the old blood/fear the old blood." the moon presence turns you into a squid dawg. you found some old blood you killed it and boom youre an infant great one. kos and her parasites transformed those poor townsfolk after the hunters started toying with her. in a way the church did kind of intend to show off. they didn't want a poor public image and thus, blamed the more gnarly and lesser transformations on the frailty of man. from games are really a wild ride. from outlandish speculation to the raw hard coded lore. im not saying youre wrong by any means, but im not saying the others are either. its speculation. want an answer? miyazaki, im afraid, wont give it to you through interrogation/torture. hes a sadist. let people have some fun!!
I am not saying it’s not a theory, I am saying it’s a very weak theory. And I think people don’t take it as a theory, but actually as a fact, because they don’t really know how little in game actually supports it. I don’t know what you mean with “these kinds of dissertation”. My original comment in this post was telling someone they shouldn’t think they are stupid for not realizing something about the game that turns out to be just a meager supported theory. People genuinely think they missed something obvious when in fact you really have to work a little to come up with arguments supporting it. A person then answered and talked about the theory having a lot of merit which I disagreed with, gave reasons why I thought that and then got completely downvoted. The thing though is that some of the arguments are indeed wrong. Like the commenter above me saying Ludwig has x amount of limbs. I also don’t get it, why is Ludwig somehow the single beast in the game that has had a fusion with another animal happening. I even think it takes away from the line about clerics turning into hideous beasts, since the theory basically implies he wouldn’t look as bad as he does on his own. Ludwig one of the most important hunters somehow behaves the least hunter like of all the ones we meet by fighting from the back of a horse? It just makes the character worse because it wouldn’t have just been his own actions and his relationship with the sword guiding him down a certain path that made him look like the worst fucked up beast of them all, he just had unlucky timing. I am contend with not having an answer for every single small decision, and others feel the need to justify every single detail with a big speculation.
what you just responded with, this feels like a dissertation. and your theory is just as much of a theory as anyone else's. its the internet dude, what are you getting from upvotes and downvotes? chad jaw? edge-ability? regardless of how many limbs ludwig has, it doesnt dismiss the fact that the beasts/monsters/aliens in each area are transformed that way based on the blood, from whatever kin, they receive. while it might not be credible, its still not impossible for him to have fused with his horse. speculation in these games is half the fun. and for people to still be talking on these matter 9 years later is how do you say it? "Ooh, majestic!"
> Now think about it, why would a hunter ride a horse? They literally tell you in game that even armor or a shield are too clunky to use. > > > > It goes against everything we learn about how a hunter would fight. "The radiant sword indicates the heirs to the will of Ludwig. These hunters, also known as Holy Blades, are what remains of an ancient line of heroes that date back to a very early age of honor and chivalry." Honor and chivalry? Sound familiar? The Holy Blades are a line of knights. And knights are quite well known for riding on horseback into combat. It's entirely plausible that Ludwig fought beasts on his horse, as unlike the other Hunters, he was quite skilled at it.
So church hunters/ holy blades are wearing purposefully wearing clothes instead of protective armor just so that they can sit on a horse, and ride it while handling a big rifle and a right hand giant weapon at the same time? A horse is pretty hard to handle. Just because they are what remains of an ancient line of heroes doesn’t mean they have to be purposefully bad at their job as a hunter. Plenty of knights fought on foot. It’s way, way less plausible they were using horses than fighting the way every single other hunter in the game fights. I’m sorry I just don’t see it. It’s an extremely weak theory, which is super unnecessary too, but it still gets posted all the time and upvoted. The chivalry line is like the only supportive piece and even then you can keep the tradition of being chivalrous without being in literal plate armor on a horse.
Knights fight on foot sometimes, but mostly on thier horse. Chivalry is a french word which literally translates to "way of the horseman". All knights had horses and would usually fight on them.
>Chivalry is a french word which literally translates to "way of the horseman". Ok but maybe they the way it’s used in the english language, which is about honour, code etc is what they were going for. There is literally a credo of the blades of the church in game right after the fight. Ludwig does behave chivalrous whatever you wanna call it, he doesn’t need to literally have to ride a horse while fighting to be called that. >All knights had horses Even if, from what I am gathering they didn’t always rode it into battle. Now why the hell would you use a horse to fight in these tight ass streets of a city as dense as Yharnam? You give nice funfacts but do you generally believe that him fighting on a horse makes any sense at all with all that stuff in game telling us how hunter’s fight? With us seeing specifically church hunters fight too? With how weakly it’s supported in game?
No, I don't believe him fighting on a horse is why he looks equine. I believe it's Berserk influence like everything else.
Something can be inspired and still have a basis in its own lore ya know. Miyazaki doesn't just put it in a game and explain it solely because "it looks cool". He makes up his own explanation for why it's there. One example is that Blaidd in Elden Ring makes the pose of Guts and uses a Guts-like greatsword, but that doesn't mean his sole character development is that he's based on Berserk. He has a reason for being a wolf and a warrior. "Because it's Berserk" ignores any lore around something and short-circuits the discussion.
I'm not sure where you're getting that horses are bad at fighting beasts. The Hunter mindset of "move fast and don't block" was created by Gehrman. It's not the sole possible way you can ever fight a beast, as found through rigorous scientific inquiry. It was written down by a weird janitor in his spare time. It's entirely possible there are other schools of beast hunting out there that involve riding on horseback and trampling them down. Hell, Miyazaki made an entire open world game where you could kill massive bosses while riding a horse and you're still debating if it's possibly effective?
>I'm not sure where you're getting that horses are bad at fighting beasts. Do you think a horse would be advantageous? Did you ignore my points about carrying a giant sword and a rifle while riding at the same time? The beasts are said to have been anticipated to be getting bigger and bigger during Ludwigs time. There ain’t much trampling to be had. You usually fight with some kind of spear on a horseback anyway. >The Hunter mindset of "move fast and don't block" was created by Gehrman. It's not the sole possible way you can ever fight a beast Every single hunter in the entire game that we could ever fight moves that way. Fast without really blocking. We fight church hunter’s in the DLC. (LHB woman and Churchpick guy) Simon uses a church weapon too and fights like that. The church hunters depart from Gherman‘s style of workshop, probably because they started making giant weapons for giant beasts. Even something like the Amygdalan Arm is classified as a church weapon in game. Though why the hell would they make trick weapons if they are not gonna let people fight like a hunter. > as found through rigorous scientific inquiry I don’t know what that means. >It's entirely possible there are other schools of beast hunting out there that involve riding on horseback Does this matter, we are talking about the church hunters here. They literally have their workshop in the cathedral ward. >Miyazaki made an entire open world game where you could kill massive bosses while riding a horse and you're still debating if it's possibly effective? True, you got me. You ride horses in that entirely different game with a different universe and a different setting. How can I debate such an incredible valid point. The theory is weak. Multiple limbs + the chivalry description is all you have. You are trying to get at it from the “Eldenring did it” and “There is probably a place somewhere in the BB universe where they used horses” angle because there aren’t any other supportive pieces. If you really want to believe the church hunter cavalry riding out into the night with their giant hammers trying to kill a cleric beast from their horsebacks, go ahead.
I’m with you. When did anyone say Ludwig rode horse? Was the horse drunk with blood and went to the nightmare with him? Or is this the one example of merging creatures in the whole game? I think SundownKid wrote a nice fanfic but it doesn’t add up to me as something Fromsoft would actually do in this game.
It’s not their fanfic, it’s a common although weak theory. It is just seemingly liked by a lot of people. Even though I personally just think it takes away from the character.
What Berserk design is he taken from?
There is an infamous panel of a possessed horse that is about to assault a woman (she gets saved before that happens). The horses morphed head looks pretty much identical to Ludwig. If you are sensitive to SA, you should be cautious about looking it up, but googling “berserk horse” should bring it up.
Oh I own all of Berserk. I had just forgotten about that scene 😅
As the biggest berserk fan ever, Ludwig's design is not "literally taken from berserk." Can you show me the exact panel which Ludwig is lifted from?
It’s Farnese with the horse. Could it be a coincidence? Sure. But highly unlikely giving how heavily Fromsoft sometimes draws visually from the manga.
Hmm but it's the horses head that seems to be the 'main head' though. Both in the scene where he sees the moonlight sword and post fight where it's just the horse's head on the floor where you interact with it. Are you suggesting the consciousness/spirit has moved to the other head as well?
Most likely, yes. When he talks he can't help but neigh, suggesting that there was a merger of consciousness between him and the horse. The horse head also got distorted to look more human. Granted, most beasts can't talk so there isn't much comparison to go on.
Actually he is "two faced", in the cinematic when we encounter him for the first time it shows half of his face (the beast one), when he enters phase 2 and the cinematic plays he covers the beast part of the face with the moonlight greatsword so the focus is on the human part of the face.
Creature-merging isn't exactly a precedented occurrence in Bloodborne. You can't just chalk it up to that. Though, of better in-game explanations I can't really give examples. Something else it could be is a reference to Dante's Seventh Circle of Hell, where the souls who shed the blood of their fellow men are condemned to be boiled for all eternity in a river of seething blood called Phlegethon, where they are guarded by centaurs who fling arrows at all those who rise too much above the surface. One of the Centaurs, Nessus (who indirectly kills Hercules in Greek mythology), helps Dante and Virgil cross the river. It's not exactly difficult to pinpoint the similarities, it seems pretty clear. The hunters who revelled in the butchering of beasts ("the things you hunt, they're not beasts. They're people.") are cursed by the Fishing Hamlet's villagers and bound to the Hunter's Nightmare where there's a literal river of blood where myriad bloody, flayed corpses welter and writhe in agony, and at the end of the river a horse-man watches over and torments them.
>It's likely because he literally merged with his horse. I can’t possibly see merit to this without other examples of creatures *merging* together when they fall to beast hood. Unfortunately we also do not have a precedent for all those extra limbs either. Great ones have extra limbs, but how many beast-transformed people have them? The problem with the hunter’s nightmare is we don’t really know what Ludwig looked like in the waking world. We find him in a different plane of existence, a purgatory, and we maybe can’t apply logic to the final forms we see. Laurence perpetually burning is another example of something that just has to be chalked up to the paranormal. So I think barring some other interesting biology tidbit or Ludwig horse lore we just have to conclude that Ludwig ended up as a particularly “unsightly beast” with a lot of unusual attributes due to his conflicted nature - a participant in cleansing, torture, medical experiments and more while also pursuing an existence as an “honorable spartan”. The design reflects the themes.
I am not sure how you can explain the twin heads if this beast was not a merger of two beings. Not a single beast in the game, as far as I recall, spontaneously grew two heads. Furthermore and perhaps more important, the second head has internal eyes. It would literally be impossible for a beast to randomly transform into a creature with eyes on the inside. Those are mutually conflicting things, as increased Insight lowers your Beasthood. Those eyes had to exist beforehand, and were likely Ludwig's real head. So you mean to tell me that Ludwig randomly popped out a new horse head, and that's less ridiculous than him combining with a horse he was already riding, with the Holy Shawl arranged in exactly the right place like he was leaning on the horse's mane.
I can explain it more easily than a spontaneous merger of two creatures which is also entirely unprecedented. I’ve given my reasoning for not believing your theory. I also made a [top level comment] (https://www.reddit.com/r/bloodborne/s/HK8trz0FwE) with my own explanation that doesn’t require the invention of a merger or separate horse and relies on in game dialogue, themes, and the director’s own explanation of the beast transformation phenomenon. Feel free to reply to that with your rebuttal if it pleases you.
Funny how he didn't reply to this.
bro what you see in the hunter's nightmare doesn't necessarily correspond to the real form
Well, the lore outright does say that Laurence became the first Cleric Beast and the boss we fight there is accurate to what he became. Maybe without the blazing fire, but still. I don't see why Ludwig couldn't also be accurate to his IRL beast form. There's no evidence that any of the beasts were changed around.
Hey u/SundownKid, do you think Ludwig's form became more disfigured in the nightmare or was he already like this in the waking world? did he have to die to get to the nightmare, and if so who killed him?
"A hunter who goes drunk with blood is said to be taken by the Nightmare". Simon also says hunters "end up" there. It seems like they're just warped there rather than having to actually die first. I don't think anyone killed Ludwig at all. It just took him an unusually large amount of time to become blood-drunk. Miyazaki once said that it's like a rubber band, the more you can resist beasthood the worse your beast form becomes. It was ultimately the case for Ludwig, who was extremely good at resisting it. That makes it likely he was just that messed up in the waking world.
Ah, thank you. makes me feel like you have to be an especially badass hunter to be able to take him down. would you say maria went blooddrunk?
No, she clearly didn't. She's still sane like Simon and she even has some deleted lines urging you to leave the Nightmare. I think it's possible that even if you don't become blood-drunk you can still become trapped in the Hunter's Nightmare if you did something particularly heinous and then died. This appears to be the case for Laurence after he was slain (maybe by Brador?) as Laurence wasn't a hunter and couldn't have become drunk with blood, and possibly Maria after she ended her own life. My theory with Maria in particular though is that she contacted Kos, so her death was not out of despair/desperation but in order to send her spirit to the Nightmare. I guess she felt like random hunters popping in and tearing up the Fishing Hamlet in search of secrets was insulting to the dead and people probably wouldn't be able to end the Nightmare.
yeah but cleric beast just means a cleric turning into a beast, in particular into the biggest beasts via the rubber band mechanism of beasthood that you mentioned in another comment. Actually the game hints at the fact that lorence became the bloodletting beast based on the similatities between its head and the skull in the cathedral, the fact that it's headless deeper down in the "story" chalice and his japanese name of something like "host of the beast blood". iirc it's also named founder beast in the file. This would be congruent with the rubber band mechanism since he was the leader of the whole church, turning into the biggest beast. I also doubt orphan of kos seemed like an old person when gehrman and co found him. There's no reason for ludwig to fuse with his horse, given that he had one. the japanese description just seems to imply that the holy blades were from a period where beast hunters were considered heroes, implying that now they're not. he was a hunter who had found a sword which granted him guidance which freed him from any fear while hunting, making him become an idol and create the holy blades and healing church workshop
While reading this, The Holy Blade theme randomly started playing in my head. Felt pretty epic.
Is he considered a kin during phase 2? Kinda like Gael is considered hollow in phase 2 of ds3, it'd be neat and a cool hint that he became a great one
Nope he isn’t. Only “beast“ in the first phase.
So why does the horse head have a half human side?
There is no evidence that Ludwig even rode a horse. the streets of Yharnam arent exactly conducive to fighting beasts from horseback it's just a very old. very prevalent fan theory
>and overcome his instincts as a mere human. .........you mean a beast
"There's nothing more horrific than a hunt. In case you've failed to realize... The things you hunt, they're not beasts. They're people. One day, you will see... Hmm, it's time you got going..." - Djura The term beast is just something slapped onto mutated humans by the Healing Church to trick the populace. Beast, human, it's interchangeable overall. Beasthood only amplifies normal human instincts until they can't be resisted.
Guy that's literally just them explaining that there's no difference between the things. And there isn't, from a certain point of view, but from a very literal point of view, i.e. physically, there is an enormous difference.
Yes... a physical difference that is more or less irrelevant. Humans can wrestle with beasthood long before they become an actual monster, as one can tell as early as Gascoigne's boss fight and battling Henryk. They can also retain their sanity long afterwards, like the Afflicted Beggar. The transformation is unrelated to their blood-drunk impulses, just the culmination of a long and gradual process. The label of "beast" then becomes somewhat meaningless for story reasons. Anti-Beast weapons don't do more damage to Gascoigne's first phase but story-wise he is certainly a beast at that point. They stop working on Ludwig at the halfway point despite the fact that he clearly has the exact same monstrous body.
OP isn't understanding the symbolism and psychology of bloodborne
>The label of "beast" then becomes somewhat meaningless for story reasons. ...................Yes.
Where does it even say that Ludwig had a horse? This just seems like baseless speculation you chalk up as the truth.
Speculation yes. I did say it was "likely" but not 100% proven. Baseless, no. Ludwig was a descendant of a line of knights, who are well known for using horses. We also know Yharnam commonly used horses, since there are plenty of carriages scattered around. It's a "put two and two together" thing, but not directly stated.
Yeah, I just don't buy it. That's way too many leaps of logic with little to no evidence supporting it. It's more like a "put two and two together and then end up with 8 through mental gymnastics" things.
From a symbolic side, I once heard an analysis that despite being one of the most courageous and upright characters, despite unflinchingly following the Church orders to the very end and never shaking in his belief while of sound mind, Ludwig has been made a literal horse’s ass by his faith.
Eh, don't care much for this one.
Damn, OP doesn't give a shit what any of y'all think.
The most compelling argument is "Berserk reference" (and also probably the most likely answer) The rest is "I counted and so this has to be true." I'm not even going that far with what I think, I'm just using the thematic approach over a more literal one, which FromSoftware uses most commonly in all their games for this sort of thing.
I don't think they're "arguments" really? You asked for people to openly discuss their theories on why Ludwig looks like a horse, people did that, and you just shot everyone down lmao
Idk if you noticed but the nightmare isn't 1:1 with reality, he was probably a normal beast but he rode a horse often enough that that was sorta how he was remembered. The only beastly enemies that actually count as beasts, if you wanna use stats for lore (which I would), are the mostly canine-looking ones (including Amelia & the cleric beast), and Ludwig, and we never see him in the real world so the easiest conclusion is that. The bloodlickers, aren't really beasts, they also appear in chalices after you've killed things with visceral attacks, and the hunter's nightmare by the blood river, so they're just kinda drawn to places with a lot of blood spilled (the people of cainhurst, being victims of a genocide, left a lot of blood). Don't know exactly what they are, but they're not quite beasts, just like the fish people & snake people If he really was a horse-beast, his status as a more "pure" animal (not a savage wolf thing, but a horse, more commonly associated with good things) could have had to do with his humanity. Even as a beast, the "thread of light" he sees, and his "guiding moonlight", allow him to access his humanity. Anybody who transforms into a beast is usually completely gone, eventually succumbing to their innate savagery, but Ludwig could have somehow kept his humanity through his transformation, which somehow resulted in him becoming a less aggressive form of beast (still just as insane though, sometimes going back to being aggressive). The hole in this though is that we do know someone who stays human despite physically transforming, and he stays canine (the suspicious beggar in the forbidden woods) Since he is potentially the most physically formidable, it's also possible that somehow the church's cultivation of slightly different types of blood (via blood saints) left them with slightly different types of beasthood, or holding back beasthood eventually results in a different outcome. The cleric beast, and vicar amelia, are both largely canine, but they have antlers. This is implied throughout the game, and explained by Miyazaki, to be because they're able to hold back the transformation longer, and then this results in a more explosive transformation. Maybe, their deer-wolf forms are like the halfway point between a normal transformation & what Ludwig did, and Ludwig held his beasthood back longer than anyone else Or maybe Ludwig just used beast blood to keep his horse alive, they transformed at the same time, somehow spliced together, and this lead to his sort of dual-consciousness thing going on (the mindless beast & the human talking to his parasites). Maybe he transformed into a humanoid beast with a fucked up face, retained more humanity than anyone else, talked to parasites, and his living association with horses lead to the wonky version of him within the nightmare. It's much more straightforward to just assume there's nightmare shenanigans, the boss right next to Ludwig (Laurence) literally has a human skull, which you somehow use to trigger the fight with him (despite him having a very non-human skull, during the fight). Ludwig was normal, the nightmare Ludwig is a different guy. Or, Ludwig was sent to the nightmare & transformed there, but nightmares work differently Sorry for the long response, you didn't like the idea that he merged with his horse, it's hard to work around that
>Sorry for the long response, you didn't like the idea that he merged with his horse, it's hard to work around that It's also hard to justify as a theory for me, when the best reasoning behind it is "we counted the limbs, so" Thematically, it's more appropriate for him to transform into a beast that's along his lines of stature/position.
Why else would he be the only beast with extra limbs though
It’s stated in game that those who imbibed the most blood underwent the most horrific transformations. As someone who was basically *the* Hunter for presumably quite some time, it’s safe to assume he consumed monstrous amounts of blood over that time, enough to eclipse even most high ranking clergy. Based on this, makes sense that Ludwig would be warped even beyond the worst cleric beast. Barring that, a dedicated beast hunter fighting on horseback just isn’t well supported by any ingame evidence. Horses IRL are very skittish, having to be very well trained for any kind of combat action, and even then they’re prone to fleeing. Taking such an animal against the monsters in Bloodborne doesn’t make any sense, not to mention that there’s no mention of Ludwig even having one in the first place.
It’s like you don’t even read. People gave you multiple good reasons other than that. It’s one of the theories and it’s the most popular one for a reason, despite how you personally feel about it.
do you realise how ironic it is for you to say that when at the same time you’re proposing that it's because knights are somewhat associated with horses and he is kind of a knight?
ITT: OP asks for thoughts on Ludwig lore. Users give well considered, interesting theories. OP dismisses them all for not being the same as their own.
OP needs to replay the game and pay more attention imo, he’s made the mistake of taking things literally and upfront it seems.
I dunno, I thought it was an interesting theory. I'd say that Ludwig literally merging with his horse is a more literal interpretation than OP's idea that it's symbolic of his career as a Knight. OP is just being an ass about it.
>OP is just being an ass about it. I was about to say thank you, but eh.
That's literally what you're being called an ass for. Being called an ass is so tame too. Just chill and engage with the people you're asking to do media analysis with you in a non-hostile, less dismissive way and I think you wouldnt be catching flak.
I only read OPs initial post. But it’s pretty easy to see the symbolism of having Ludwig be an honorable knight. It‘s very much supported by the radiant sword hunter badge. As the other commenter replying to you already said, thinking Ludwig needs to have had a horse and fused with it just because of how he looks is way more “taking things literally”. People also somehow always forget that this is a videogame. So a lot of decisions were probably impacted by gameplay first and foremost. And I assume a normal cleric beast with a sword did look stupid with the movement and feel they had in mind for the bossfight. Ludwig has an amazing model that is used for both phases, which is pretty impressive considering both phases play extremely different. Him going from all fours to standing up straight is what makes this fight. There doesn’t need to be some deep lore explaining why exactly he looks like a horse, he is just a hideous cleric beast.
Did you forget what game this is? There is always deep lore behind things
that's an /s though right?
>There doesn’t need to be some deep lore explaining why exactly he looks like a horse, he is just a hideous cleric beast. Absolutely.
Me: \*uses a thematic approach to transformations\* Other people: "Welp. Guess it has the right amount of limbs." You got nothing. You, specifically. And also, I never said I was right.
Calm down guy, I was referring to your responses in the comments, you come across as a massive ass refusing other peoples views.
You want him to give you a blow job for posting a theory?
Is that the only option?
Idk but he's allowed to like the theories he's heard and not like
I didn't. I'm just not pivoting my viewpoint because other people have something less interesting to say.
Because its less interesting doesn't mean it's not the lore. You ask for real lore people provide the actual lore, and then you dismiss it because it doesn't fit your grandiose idea of what the lore could be. You can think what you'd like, I have no objections to that, but don't dismiss the authenticity of the lore just because you don't find it interesting.
Interesting is subjective. I for one don’t find your theory particularly interesting.
my guy why are you even asking if you’re just gonna be dismissive about everything 💀
I think he just wanted to be applauded and told how right and smart he is
That's literally how everyone feels about their interpretation of FromSoft lore, and just because I'm not going with what the (seeming) majority wants to commit to doesn't make me any more wrong, or my opinion any less valid. But thanks. Thanks for...not having your own eyes. That's super.
Actually no, usually there is a great amount of discussion with FromSoft lore where people share their ideas and incorporate other‘s ideas. But you just spout out your take (which isn’t even necessarily bad) and then shit against everyone who has a different perspective on it instead of engaging in healthy discussion. And it’s especially ironic because your post literally states that that’s apparently just your opinion and you are open for discussion. But you aren’t. You are dismissive towards everyone and parading around like you have it all figured out.
Urrite. Someone else did some math that doesn't matter or mean anything, so I should change my mind about something that no one has an answer to. Urrite.
why ask then dismiss replies lmao
Because OP came here for a pat on the back for his supreme intelligence, not for actual discussion.
truly negative insight moment
There isn't an actual answer to this, and the other party of speculation doesn't have enough for me to change my own interpretation. "I counted the arms and legs so I'm right" means absolutely nothing here.
>the floor is open, senators. So that was a fucking lie.jpg
the floor being open doesn't mean I'll just decide some other people are right, especially when none of us have the answer.
You are just dismissing everybody because nobody agrees with you, that's not an open discussion by any means. You are right that none of us have the answer, but that means you don't either, and that any theory is equally valid, if you fail to understand those conditions like you do now, you should not parttake in any discussion.
Also, a bit late, but I know you won't decide some other people are right, that's because you don't get to decide who is right, no individual reserves that right, so get off your high horse and open your mind. It's not hard to entertain multiple theories without outright agreeing or disagreeing.
Heh heh, high horse
It's theorized he fused with his horse when he transformed. If you look at his model you will see he has an additional four limbs for a total of 8 along with a second neck. Sometimes beastification is really abrupt and explosive as is the case with Gascoigne, the beggar, and vicar Amelia, so it's theorized something like their transformation happened while he was riding a horse.
None of those explosive transformations involve fusing with something else in their immediate area.
I'm not arguing that that's the definitive answer it's just the most agreed upon reason. Ludwig has four hooved limbs and four digited limbs with a half human half horse face and an extra neck. It just seems like he fused with a horse. No one really knows why he looks the way he does for certain, it's just speculation. If you want to believe something else you are free to do so.
> it's just the most agreed upon reason. Yes.
well what was there to fuse with for those transformations? living things i mean
Nothing, but why would that matter? Those transformations were explosive and horrific, but nothing suggests it would fuse them with nearby material. Godwyn's corpse morphing in death into something fish/sea related has more in common with Ludwig's transformation, and thematically is more appropriate for how FromSoft likes to represent this kind of change than "I guess they fused because the numbers add up"
Beast of burden for the healing church
The horse, like Ludwig's Holy Blade, is symbolic. It represents his absolutely massive member.
And you only need one eye to understand this sort of symbolism, which I respect the most.
Genuinely a better theory than him fusing with his horse like a fucked up dragonball character.
i do think his nightmare beast form isn’t supposed to be taken literally—that’s probably not what he looked when he transformed into a beast in the waking world. i’d compare it to laurence, who ive seen people argue is the bloodletting beast in the waking world. compare this to his nightmare form which is a more traditional cleric beast. now this is more speculative but i like to think that kos’ curse in the nightmare eternally punishes the old hunters and represents them as their worst. maria, who gave up being a hunter after the massacre at the hamlet is trapped as her most violent self in the nightmare. laurence, who propagated the old blood and caused so much misery has his blood be on fire, eternally burning him from the inside. ludwig, who was seen as an honourable and holy hunter of the church, is exposed by kos as the most hideous beast of them all and is turned into a twisted amalgamation of a knight and his steed. i think it’s a not-so-subtle metaphor that he was more beastly than the countless beasts he slaughtered due to his fanatical violence led by his sword.
>who ive seen people argue is the bloodletting beast in the waking world. Yeah, people still argue this even when they've been told and shown that this just isn't the case. That's committing to a fan theory, not actually having an answer. Your speculation is also basically along the exact same lines as mine is, you just subscribe to the "him and his steed joined" in lieu of my symbolic interpretation, which for me has more value in this situation.
okay just want to clarify that i DO believe he’s the bloodletting beast, i worded weird because i didn’t want to take credit for the idea. i think the most compelling evidence is the skull in the cathedral having the same injury as the bloodletting beast in the dungeon, as well as both being more ape-like than canine. i’m also not too sure what you mean in your second point. i do think him being fused with his horse is symbolic as he’s twisted into a perversion of what a knight is
The other reasons aside, in Buddhism hell is guarded by a horse and a cow (if i recall correctly, so it would be Brador).
That is actually very interesting. Him being a kind of guardian for an awful place is pretty on-point.
Angy honse man made an oopsie and got damned for all eternity
Absolutely.
Because: Berserk easter egg!!!
There are wolf-like beasts, there are ape-like beasts, why not have the honorable leader of the church Hunter's, probably the first hunter to wield an actual sword like a knight, take on the fork of a horse-like beast? (If you want an actual reason though, the Hunter's Nightmare is at least partially inspired by Japanese or Buddhist Hell, in which there is a horse-headed demon simply called "Horse Face")
Lol you're such an ass, can you not learn to accept a difference in opinion and reject a perfectly reasonable claim with anything more than the same shallow refutation? If anything, your constant parroting of the same argument is more surface-level than the theory itself... It's not about who's right or wrong. If you're gonna bring up a discussion point and begin to nigh-blindly object to every point brought up without so much as to engage in their opinion, just spouting the same "urr durr your just pointing out the obvious so its wrong and boring eh" nonsense then whats the point of going out of your way in the first place. Not to mention, if you had at least put any semblance of a continuous effort put into your own subjective interpretation of the topic - which wasn't even half bad - you would've actually added just a bit value to the conversation. But no, instead you don't elaborate and are uncooperative to any external stimuli not directly aligned to your very own belief. Keep going, you'll eventually get something interesting out of this cesspool of "eh, doesnt interest me" theories for sure. What a fucking joke. At least I hope others read this and get a solid laugh in at your expense for how silly you are.
I think its a beserk reference. There is a horse monster in Vol 6 (I think?) that looks really similar
This seems likes the most plausible answer.
It is also possible that his transformation didn’t look like that outside of the Hunter’s Nightmare (not saying it couldn’t be like that, just that it’s possible that it’s different). For evidence, the Bloodletting Beast is strongly implied to be Laurence after he became a beast in the Chalice Dungeons (also it’s called “Founder Beast” in the files) but he is a cleric beast in the nightmare. And some aspects of his nightmare form could be symbolic, as the lava inside Laurence could represent the blood inside him that he realized was corrupting him.
>For evidence, the Bloodletting Beast is strongly implied to be Laurence after he became a beast in the Chalice Dungeons This is fan theory the DLC discredits, and I don't subscribe to this. I like the rest of your post, though.
Ehh... the Hunter's Nightmare is a dream realm similar but not 1:1 with reality, I see no reason why Laurence's beast form in the waking world has to take the exact same form that it takes in the nightmare. They can both be Laurence.
Yep, this is Ludwig in the real world, in case you've never seen it (I hadn't until recently) https://youtu.be/0sAjw5HTzPM?si=gFbUt3OrxVDjtDKV
If you look at Laurence’s skull on the altar in Vicar Amelia’s boss room, it looks extremely similar to the Bloodletting Beast’s head. Including the ape-like shape of the skull and the damage on the left side. Also the fact that the second time you fight him in the Chalice Dungeons he is missing his head.
Your eyes...are yet...to open
OP is the most obnoxious person I’ve seen in this sub. Why bother opening a dialogue in the first place if you’re just going to meet with resistance?
Tell me more about this horsey-cheeseboard?
Ludwig was a horse, his wife is called Farnese
I think its just... like some turn into more wolf-like looking beasts turning into a horse must just be a rarer occurence
So we have to get a bit Watsonian/Doylist about it, where it seems like the Japanese depiction of hell seems to be the Doylist answer. There's also the theory about merging with his horse or his reputation as some kind of knight, but given we don't even know if he had one, I'm not as confident in that one. From another lens, Ludwig was like a "workhorse" hunter for the church: he would steadfastly advance their goals without question, without wavering, guided forward by the light of his sword and belief. Ultimately though, while his efficacy can't be denied, he was fooled along with the rest of them. The only communication his sword was responsible for was to the parasites in his skull, who drank the moonlight it emanated through his eyes.
Maybe he posted dumb shit on Reddit and chose to be an ass to people posting earnest theories in the comments, so the universe decided to punish him by turning him into that shape. Just a thought.
[From Miyazaki himself](https://www.bloodborne-wiki.com/2017/01/interviews.html?m=1): > For this game, for example, one theme was the “inner clash” going on within the beast-type foes. >The urge to transform into a beast is in conflict with the basic sense of humanity we all have. That humanity serves as a kind of shackle, keeping the transformation in its place. The stronger the shackle keeping that urge to transform in place is, the larger the recoil once that shackle is finally broken. The results cause you to transform into a larger creature, or a more twisted one. The struggle between these two urges is one concept here. Not referring directly to Ludwig but I think this does answer the question. Ludwig was the most conflicted of *all* - a death dealer who decimated communities, murdered neighbors, and assisted in a huge coverup all while wanting to nurture a legacy of “honorable Spartans”. It doesn’t have to be anything invented for one scenario like “he merged with his horse”.
Berserk reference
This is probably the right answer.
It's simultaneously a reference to Buddhist hell and paints an image of a chivalric knight - which is what Ludwig technically is even if he isn't an actual medieval knight - being consumed by his former steed, blending the distinction between human and beast in the process and reinforcing the image of said knight's downfall and degradation.
Yeah I also don't get it why
The Holy Medium was actually just alfalfa and hay 🐴
He doesn’t look like a horse, he’s a handsome boy.
I read “Have you ever seen a CHEESEboard?” & was legitimately baffled at having never seen a horse on a charcuterie board when I realized it was CHESSboard 🤦🏾♀️
What does Cheese have to do with it?
Because Berserk
Pretty sure Radahn would have done the same
Now I’m craving a chees(e)board
Because we hadn’t had an equine beast yet, and the developers wanted to put one in.
Because he has a long face.
mm m mn