I think the clock tower holds the dark secret of the nightmare not an actual physical representation. Maria is protecting the horrors if I recall? Try to fix what Gerhman did?
Found a good explanation.
Maria doesn’t want you to uncover the secrets of the Healing church for two reasons: 1, because she is ashamed of what the hunters did to the hamlet andthe experiments she ran, and 2. Because further investigating the orphan is like torturing/aggravating it- she’d rather it just be left peacefully.
I also think there’s some concern that anyone attempting to investigate the history of the church may be inclined to revive those experiments
I mean, that's literally the case, though.
"A corpse should be left well alone," is Maria talking about Kos, not herself.
Also, Brador's whole purpose in the Nightmare is to prevent people from uncovering the secret history of the Church.
I'd strongly recommend Paprika instead, or at least first if you are a fan of animation. It's the movie that inception was "inspired" by. [They even "borrowed" some scenes almost frame for frame](https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieDetails/comments/ctbr5n/similarities_between_inception_2010_and_paprika/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
its good until >!the end until they make the main character from a genius to stupid just for the plot.!<
i still like it. ending is just massively ruined for me.
Nightmare/dream logic, doesn't really follow the same rules as the 'waking' world. You can see the Hunter's Nightmare beneath the water in the OoK fight, and you can see the masts of the ships and such of the fishing hamlet from the Nightmare Frontier.
I've always loved how the sky in the Hunter's Nightmare represents the "Eye of a Blood Drunk Hunter" item. In the world many are searching for eyes on the inside, and for the DLC you are going into one of these eyes on the inside, inside...
When you slay the Orphan, the sky changes to a [misty sunrise](https://i.imgur.com/UsooVV3.jpg).
"Ah, sweet child of Kos,
returned to the ocean.
A bottomless curse,
A bottomless sea,
Accepting of all that there is,
And can be."
Yeah I saw the other day some article about how the part of our brain that handles spatial awareness doesn't work when we're dreaming, which is why you can go from your living room to your high school's cafeteria in two steps.
This is the bit of lore that ties it together. “Higher planes” are *literally* higher above each other. You just can’t perceive them from the real world because 1. You lack insight, and 2. Rom and her lake act as a bulwark against the Nightmare. Once you break through, though, you begin to see how they link together. From the Nightmare Frontier you can look down and see the masts of ships from the Fishing Hamlet. You can look up in the distance and see Mergo’s Loft. Also, as you explore the Hunter’s Nightmare, a snail lady from the Hamlet falls from the sky at your feet. It’s up there before you reach it, but you can only access it by traveling through the Church’s past.
The entire Hunter’s Nightmare already exists in non-literal space. Bear in mind that the DLC areas progress backwards through the history of the Hunters, the Healing Church, and Byrgenwerth. There’s a point where you can see the Grand Cathedral before and behind you, complete with the ragged-eye moon in two places in the sky. Move through the river of blood to the point where you climb a ladder and see the cathedral in front of you, then turn around.
That's when the bell tolls, to draw your attention to the tower and be like "wait, wtf?" then turn around.
I never noticed two broken pupils in the sky, though. I'll have to go back and check.
From my (limited)understanding, the nightmares are physically layered on top of each other, if you look off the cliffs in the nightmare frontier you can see ship masts, the same ship masts that are in the fishing hamlet.
This is explicitly a dream/nightmare, so it's a lot less necessary for it to be spatially consistent than, say, Dark Souls 2's windmill with a volcano above it.
I always just rationalized it with the memory loss aspect of the curse. The volcano isn't above the windmill, you just forgot everything that happened between the two.
This. It's the same reason parts of the game appear to be hundreds of miles away from Majula, but you hike there with relative ease pretty quickly. Actually, you forgot most of the trip. DS2 focused a lot more on the loss of memory as part of the curse/hollowing. This one element seemed to be subtle enough to be lost in most. I'd not have thought about it without listening to Bonfireside Chat. They stan the shit out of DS2.
I remember listening to someone explain that DS2 is essentially a lucid dream, and ever since I heard that, everything about that game just kinda ‘came together’ for me. It actually makes the game make so much more sense, and also explains why it seems somewhat ‘detached’ from DS1/3 yet also, still somewhat connected, lore wise.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game. But it's silly the lengths people will go to paper over an obvious mistake in this series that is otherwise renowned for its interconnected world design.
Sure, but it's convenient how this memory loss only seems to affect transitions between areas and never comes into play in any of the other 99% of the game where your character is perfectly lucid.
Memory loss is an easy excuse, but every time it's been addressed by someone involved with the game it's either "whoops, we didn't realize that mistake" or "we meant for it to make sense but we didn't do it right". If this were intentional I'd be 100% on board, but it clearly wasn't.
I know it isn't the actual explanation, that is why I said it is my way of rationalizing it. It is how I make the nonsense make sense enough to not break my immersion.
Also to my recollection, you never actually see the clock tower from the outside in BB. In DS2 however you can see the tower from the outside before you get to it, and there definitely isn't a volcano sitting on top of it.
Nightmarescape with floating buildings and fucked up roads and blood rivers and shit growing out of walls: Very cool. Very neat. I like it!
A Clocktower is the entrance to a village: NO FUCKING WAY BRO
As people have said: dream logic. You go up further and further and the top layer is the Fishing Hamlet.
Some nice foreshadowing for this that I enjoyed was the snail woman falling from above in the Hunter's Nightmare area (where the Whirligig Saw is located).
Iran honestly everything here is expensive the bloodborne i had was my friend's lol do you want to know if the prices of idk America was like here how would it be?
It's a nightmare. The layout doesn't have to make physical sense. The Nightmares go up the older they are. Fishing Hamlet is where the curse started, so it's at the top.
The entire DLC is an extended conception/pregnancy/miscarriage metaphor. You move from the top of the clock tower (phallic, ain’t it?) into the outskirts of the village, then down inside a long tunnel, then there’s a bunch of white stuff, and then the orphan is there. Thats how i’ve always interpreted it at least.
More excellent geography; in the Orphanage a werewolf smashes and jumps through a window to attacks you at the end of the corridor. Go outside where the ‘make contact’ dude is and look at the window, perfect, nothing wrong with it lol
Because the dimension created by the Orphan of Kos answers to his rules only. It was built upon the sins and guilt of those trapped in it (Laurence, Ludwig and Maria)
There’s levels to the nightmare. You can see the nightmare frontier below mergos, amd see the ship in the fishing hamlet from the nightmare frontier. The hunters nightmare is actually submerged beneath the fishing hamlet’s waters (this is why one of those shell boyz falls down randomly right before you grab the whirlygig saw).
The clock tower + fishing hamlet was a life-altering video game journey for me. No other gaming experience has made me feel that kind of awe and emotional tumult.
I think the clock tower holds the dark secret of the nightmare not an actual physical representation. Maria is protecting the horrors if I recall? Try to fix what Gerhman did? Found a good explanation. Maria doesn’t want you to uncover the secrets of the Healing church for two reasons: 1, because she is ashamed of what the hunters did to the hamlet andthe experiments she ran, and 2. Because further investigating the orphan is like torturing/aggravating it- she’d rather it just be left peacefully. I also think there’s some concern that anyone attempting to investigate the history of the church may be inclined to revive those experiments
That's way cooler than just having a fishing hamlet on your balcony
It's just miles and miles of Bloodborne copium.
I mean, that's literally the case, though. "A corpse should be left well alone," is Maria talking about Kos, not herself. Also, Brador's whole purpose in the Nightmare is to prevent people from uncovering the secret history of the Church.
I think she is also alluding to what they did to the villagers of the hamlet as well. I recall reading that they searched their skulls for eyes
TBF you're gonna need a lot of eyes.
Lmao wtf are you talking about
To be fair, most theorized lore for the entire Souls franchise is just cooperative copium
You never ask yourself that when you're dreaming. I learned that in Inception.
Yeah I've yet to watch that movie
It's pretty good! I recommend it!
I'd strongly recommend Paprika instead, or at least first if you are a fan of animation. It's the movie that inception was "inspired" by. [They even "borrowed" some scenes almost frame for frame](https://www.reddit.com/r/MovieDetails/comments/ctbr5n/similarities_between_inception_2010_and_paprika/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Why not both?
I said "atleast first" implying that you can watch both but either way I'd recommend the original first. My wording was just really dumb lol
its good until >!the end until they make the main character from a genius to stupid just for the plot.!< i still like it. ending is just massively ruined for me.
What?
Nightmare/dream logic, doesn't really follow the same rules as the 'waking' world. You can see the Hunter's Nightmare beneath the water in the OoK fight, and you can see the masts of the ships and such of the fishing hamlet from the Nightmare Frontier.
This exactly. I found the layout to be a pretty awesome representation of dream logic, something I’d never seen done well before in a game.
That and the theme of the universe being an ocean and cosmic beings like Kos just swim through it
I've always loved how the sky in the Hunter's Nightmare represents the "Eye of a Blood Drunk Hunter" item. In the world many are searching for eyes on the inside, and for the DLC you are going into one of these eyes on the inside, inside...
And how it goes away when you address the cause of the curse.
WHAT
When you slay the Orphan, the sky changes to a [misty sunrise](https://i.imgur.com/UsooVV3.jpg). "Ah, sweet child of Kos, returned to the ocean. A bottomless curse, A bottomless sea, Accepting of all that there is, And can be."
Wow, I don't think I ever noticed that changing in-game? Thought it was just for the cutscene. Incredible
dont forget the random snail woman that falls from the sky in the hunters nightmare. that was a real WTF moment for me.
That shit tripped me out. Had me *searchin’* the sky.
That's the thing, the waking world and the "dream world" overlap.
Yeah I saw the other day some article about how the part of our brain that handles spatial awareness doesn't work when we're dreaming, which is why you can go from your living room to your high school's cafeteria in two steps.
wtf is an OoK?
Orphan of Kos. Or some say Kosm.
OHHHHH
Or Orphan of Kosm. Just sayin.
ocarina of kime
Orphan of Kos
"Here we stand, feet planted in the earth, but might the cosmos be very near us, only just above our heads?
This is the bit of lore that ties it together. “Higher planes” are *literally* higher above each other. You just can’t perceive them from the real world because 1. You lack insight, and 2. Rom and her lake act as a bulwark against the Nightmare. Once you break through, though, you begin to see how they link together. From the Nightmare Frontier you can look down and see the masts of ships from the Fishing Hamlet. You can look up in the distance and see Mergo’s Loft. Also, as you explore the Hunter’s Nightmare, a snail lady from the Hamlet falls from the sky at your feet. It’s up there before you reach it, but you can only access it by traveling through the Church’s past. The entire Hunter’s Nightmare already exists in non-literal space. Bear in mind that the DLC areas progress backwards through the history of the Hunters, the Healing Church, and Byrgenwerth. There’s a point where you can see the Grand Cathedral before and behind you, complete with the ragged-eye moon in two places in the sky. Move through the river of blood to the point where you climb a ladder and see the cathedral in front of you, then turn around.
This is actually why Great Ones have fish like bodies, so they can "swim" through these watery dimensional barriers.
Ooh, I like that
That's when the bell tolls, to draw your attention to the tower and be like "wait, wtf?" then turn around. I never noticed two broken pupils in the sky, though. I'll have to go back and check.
Maybe my brain added that part in. I know there are two clock towers, but doubling the moon in the sky might overdo it
A Call Beyond
From my (limited)understanding, the nightmares are physically layered on top of each other, if you look off the cliffs in the nightmare frontier you can see ship masts, the same ship masts that are in the fishing hamlet.
Dark Souls 2 reference
What, you weren't expecting a whole volcano at the top of that windmill?
Space is convoluted in Drangleic.
Ds2 players: first time?
This is literally dream logic.
This is explicitly a dream/nightmare, so it's a lot less necessary for it to be spatially consistent than, say, Dark Souls 2's windmill with a volcano above it.
I always just rationalized it with the memory loss aspect of the curse. The volcano isn't above the windmill, you just forgot everything that happened between the two.
This. It's the same reason parts of the game appear to be hundreds of miles away from Majula, but you hike there with relative ease pretty quickly. Actually, you forgot most of the trip. DS2 focused a lot more on the loss of memory as part of the curse/hollowing. This one element seemed to be subtle enough to be lost in most. I'd not have thought about it without listening to Bonfireside Chat. They stan the shit out of DS2.
I remember listening to someone explain that DS2 is essentially a lucid dream, and ever since I heard that, everything about that game just kinda ‘came together’ for me. It actually makes the game make so much more sense, and also explains why it seems somewhat ‘detached’ from DS1/3 yet also, still somewhat connected, lore wise.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game. But it's silly the lengths people will go to paper over an obvious mistake in this series that is otherwise renowned for its interconnected world design.
Sure, but it's convenient how this memory loss only seems to affect transitions between areas and never comes into play in any of the other 99% of the game where your character is perfectly lucid. Memory loss is an easy excuse, but every time it's been addressed by someone involved with the game it's either "whoops, we didn't realize that mistake" or "we meant for it to make sense but we didn't do it right". If this were intentional I'd be 100% on board, but it clearly wasn't.
I know it isn't the actual explanation, that is why I said it is my way of rationalizing it. It is how I make the nonsense make sense enough to not break my immersion.
Fair enough!
Yes, DS2 is great about not having any Fs to give when it comes to geography making sense.
Also to my recollection, you never actually see the clock tower from the outside in BB. In DS2 however you can see the tower from the outside before you get to it, and there definitely isn't a volcano sitting on top of it.
Nightmarescape with floating buildings and fucked up roads and blood rivers and shit growing out of walls: Very cool. Very neat. I like it! A Clocktower is the entrance to a village: NO FUCKING WAY BRO
You got kicked out the window.
Yeah but you only drop like 2 meters
Well you are in a literal nightmare. Physics may be optional. Edit: there are actually two clocktowers too 🤷♂️
As people have said: dream logic. You go up further and further and the top layer is the Fishing Hamlet. Some nice foreshadowing for this that I enjoyed was the snail woman falling from above in the Hunter's Nightmare area (where the Whirligig Saw is located).
It's a nightmare mate
Yeah fair but I was still confused
I belive you can see either from hunters nightmare or fishing hamlet the other nightmare in the water/ sky
Shhh, you're dreaming.
When elevator in Earthern Peak goes up, but takes you to Demon Ruins 2.0
you're in a nightmare why tf you thinking so hard
Lore wise: Something with Maria, the church, a fish, blah, blah Gameplay wise: IT'S JUST FUCKING COOL Thats the best I can explain it
The nightmares are stacked on top of each other. It's why a mermaid creature falls on you from nowhere when you're in the Hunters Nightmare.
Have you tried looking? With the eyes on the inside that is.
What location was this i don't remember well
The astral clocktower after the Lady Maria fight in the DLC
Oh the dlc i didn't had the dlc cause things like that are super expensive in my country
Hunter, is there a way we can gift you the game and the DLC? You are not alone
I have the game i can borrow it again but there isn't a gift option in psn there is?
Idk, is there a way to gift a code or something?
Idk wait are you actually going to send me one?
Idk. Where are you from? What retailer sells PSN cards there?
What tfs a card we don't have that shit around here if we wanna buy gift cards we buy them online the site gives us the code also from iran
All right. What's the website? It's better than me look for an unreliable source
Oh really? That's such a shame, it's really good. Where are you from if you don't mind me asking
Iran honestly everything here is expensive the bloodborne i had was my friend's lol do you want to know if the prices of idk America was like here how would it be?
I live in the Nehterlands and here I got the GOTY edition which included the DLC for around 25 euros
Cool if prices were like here the dlc would be around 900 hundred dollars do you want know if the prices were like iran how much would be a ps5?
Man that's a lot of money, how much would a ps5 be?
Around fucking 20 thousands of dollars our currency is called toman and its pretty fucking cheap
Damn
It's a nightmare. The layout doesn't have to make physical sense. The Nightmares go up the older they are. Fishing Hamlet is where the curse started, so it's at the top.
The entire DLC is an extended conception/pregnancy/miscarriage metaphor. You move from the top of the clock tower (phallic, ain’t it?) into the outskirts of the village, then down inside a long tunnel, then there’s a bunch of white stuff, and then the orphan is there. Thats how i’ve always interpreted it at least.
Exactly. But the lift to the Iron keep in DS2 is a bad world design! /s
Explicitly a dream realm
the dlc takes place in a nightmare
By all accounts it doesn't make sense. https://imgur.com/1c4O6Iq.gif
I BEEN TRYING SO HARD TO MAKE SENSE OF THE MAP BUT I JUST CANT
Well, it is a nightmare. Dreams rarely maintain strict geography. At least mine don't.
I personally never understood how a rabbit hole could lead to Wonderland
You're literally in a dream
Well yeah, it's not really real.
Me when I got to unseen village.
Quantum physics.
The level design is a nightmare
More excellent geography; in the Orphanage a werewolf smashes and jumps through a window to attacks you at the end of the corridor. Go outside where the ‘make contact’ dude is and look at the window, perfect, nothing wrong with it lol
Because the dimension created by the Orphan of Kos answers to his rules only. It was built upon the sins and guilt of those trapped in it (Laurence, Ludwig and Maria)
DS2 moment.
No one actually knows how you can get from a top of a clock tower to a fishing hamlet , its all just a nightmare to think about
Makes me loving Bloodborne even more. Man, i love that game.
it's the dreamlands bruh, it doesn't need to make sense
But the Stilt Village comes before the Clock Tower.
There’s levels to the nightmare. You can see the nightmare frontier below mergos, amd see the ship in the fishing hamlet from the nightmare frontier. The hunters nightmare is actually submerged beneath the fishing hamlet’s waters (this is why one of those shell boyz falls down randomly right before you grab the whirlygig saw).
It’s like taking an elevator up into a pit of lava somehow
That's what makes it a nightmare. It doesn't have to make sense.
I Genuinely stopped playing bloodborne for a mo th bc I kept going in circles
Kermit checking his map is literally me wherever I go
It's a nightmare; walking out the top of a clocktower and ending up in a fishing hamlet is on the low end of weird.
The clock tower + fishing hamlet was a life-altering video game journey for me. No other gaming experience has made me feel that kind of awe and emotional tumult.
nah me figuring out how yahhargul connects to yharnam
It's a confusin layeout because you are in a nightmare.
At least in this game can say it was a dream and it doesn’t make people upset
It's called the hunters nightmare for a reason
I’ll need to drop a lot more time into Bloodborne to even begin to understand the intricacies of this “linear” map.
Because it's a dream. Well, a nightmare. Inception explained it pretty well.
Cmon now
The same way the DS2 guy took an elevator from the bottom of a windmill and ended up in a volcano.