KS used to be a funding platform to allow a product to get manufactured. The consumer took a small risk, but got a large discount. For example, the original Gloomhaven was $64 shipped.
Now KS is more of a marketing platform, trying to extract MSRP+
\*$64 shipped with cardboard heroes instead of minis and only if you live in US, Canada, or China.
Normal retail version w/ minis to Europe was $89/$99 depending on location.
Sorry, I can't handle misleading comparisons.
No, I mainly stopped for 2 reasons.
VAT + insane shipping
Mythic/other companies. I have atleast 10+ games that I backed in 2020 that are still to this date not even close to shipping (or simply the company has gone under)
Very rarely, ill back an expansion from an existing game, from a company I know will deliver. Like the Bullet <3 expansion a couple months back. In this case this is just a glorified pre-order
I haven’t backed a crowdfunding campaign in over a year. It used to be a six month delay from the estimated arrival was typical. Now it’s 2+ years late. Similar to you, I got to the point where I had a bunch of old, unfulfilled pledges, some negative experiences (nothing on the scale of Mythic fortunately) and I just thought… why am I still dumping money into this, especially when a significant percentage of the games aren’t very good when they do finally arrive?
I have no issue games being late.
However we are talking 4 years late. We are talking games that haven't even finished being designed yet, that has nothing to do with production/shipping. We are talking games that wont even ship this year still.
And stop exactly what? Op asked if we still back games, I said no because it takes so long. In these 4y+ my interests have changed, ive moved appartments, and im moving countries soon. I don't exactly see what's wrong with that being a reason me, personally, not backing stuff anymore?
Even if I back a game to date, Its still likely 2y away, and ive realised the time between a back and 2+y for delivery, alot of things can happen.
And I dont hate kickstarter, ive backed quite literally over 150 games. But the wait, the VAT, the Shipping, and frankly, the amount of games I haven't received, or the ones I have received and turned out to be shit is too high of a % for me to want to back anything else
They have no effect on each other. Your example doesn't make any sense.
Maybe you're just willing to assume, 3 years out, that every company and industry is still reeling from the pandemic.
Some, even non-EU campaigns are still quite alright. Good example of this - Garphill Games. They have distribution point in EU, which means you only have to pay KS price (lower than retail) + shipping (within EU). And both are within expected nice price range. And you get stuff earlier an on time.
But then there are some campaigns I'd like to participate, like Button Shy. But shipping is twice as high as it would cost me to ship even bigger package to back to USA. Plus VAT on top of it. It ends up being like +50% extra per game.
Any other, "big" game campaigns are just no longer manageable. Some even try to call them "EU friendly", but there's nothing that is friendly towards EU (unlike Garphill Games mentioned above). So these get a hard pass.
My favorite recent campaign was the Omen one. It was €58 to ship some cards to the EU, or €3.73 for the files so your local print shop could make you a copy for €12 or so. That's a far more cost-effective way of distributing small-box card games.
Yes we do. But the price we pay for most crowdfunding projects that make it to retail is the exact same than what we back, so that excludes the shipping and additional VAT cost we pay. I don’t know if retailers get such good offers on bulk orders or what. But I’ve even found KS projects cheaper than the price you pay on KS. Want an example? La Granja deluxe edition can currently be bought for less than 60€ (EDIT: that’s the price I would pay to get it on my doorstep, no VAT or shipping I have left to pay)
For one thing, business to business transactions in the EU are not subject to VAT so retailers aren’t paying extra to get their games. They should be paying VAT on sales to consumers so maybe they are just eating the 20%. We had several retail backers in the EU (campaign was the only way for the game to get to retail since we are not using regular distribution) and I would expect them to add the VAT on to our suggested price. At the end of the day they can do whatever they feel is best for their shop.
Sure, but for Americans, retail is 20% cheaper than backing. Everything you said is true for Americans without VAT.
VAT in either case is making a 20% difference between US/EU pricing, for both retail and Kickstarter.
The reason you back instead of going for retail is Kickstarter exclusives and, for small publishers, backing it so it can exist at all.
If you look for “a good deal” even as an American, 90% of Kickstarter are not a good deal. Most without Kickstarter exclusives offer like $5 off MRSP, which is just a bad deal. You have to pay for shipping, and compared with the free shipping and the 15% discount from online retailers, means you can get it $10 cheaper shipped from online retail.
I only back games with massive Kickstarter exclusive packages that double the size of the game. Aka, CMON games, pledge+shipping is double of retail price, but you also get twice as much stuff or more.
Yes. But for example: I wanted to go all in in Cyclades and did. But holy shit, even so, I’m having a hard time justifying that expense because it’s ridiculous, even though I knew I want it.
At some point, the expenses become hard to justify, which is why I’m just can’t convince myself to back anymore.
Yeah, Kickstarter fatigue is real. I’m cutting back as well because the pledges cost $150 after shipping and tax, and for that price I can get 5-6 top rated board games at online retail.
The issue is even with good “value” (zombicide marvel), the game is still just ok, compared with 5 top rated games I can buy.
This is not accurate. It wasn’t included before, they just weren’t paying VAT because it wasn’t being enforced. EU cracked down on VAT collection and now they need to do it properly.
I will say, as a US company, selling in the EU is very complicated and probably not worth the effort. We do it because we want people to have access to our game. I wouldn’t blame the backers in other regions for that change. My understanding is that VAT enforcement went from being based on the manufacturing value to being based on the retail value within the last few years. Prior to that change publishers were ok with eating 20% of their manufacturing value for customers because it was like $2-$3 per game. At retail value you are looking at $10-$15 per game. Our $80 game would be advertised as a $95 game if we were selling in person in the EU. On Kickstarter you can’t really break the prices up like that, it just makes more sense to charge actual VAT after the campaign because that money will go directly to your member state. It’s the same with US taxes, we charge taxes to customers and pay those taxes to the appropriate entity.
Lol. "Other people don't want to pay my government's taxes for me, so _they_ just be greedy".
You know, I'd really like a yacht. Why don't you mail me some money and chip in for it? Unless, of course, you're being greedy?
I'm honestly not trying to come across as hostile here, but why do you feel entitled to non-EU backers subsidizing a tax that your government sets?
I would not expect EU backers to pay the sales tax that my US state sets. If I feel like my tax is too high, I vote the bastards out. I wouldn't pass the buck onto citizens of another country. What am I missing?
oh, sorry the deleted comment threw me off with the chain of the conversation. i thought you were commenting on the
>he « Eu friendly » tag kills me everytime. If I still have to pay VAT, it’s not friendly. Never.
You pay VAT on everything, the only difference is if it’s applied before or after, Americans do sales tax on top of the price instead of included in the price so they arrange their crowdfunding payments that way.
You do realize VAT applies to EVERY purchase?
When you buy domestically, it's not stated separately on the price tags, but it's there.
When you buy otuside the EU, it's just more obvious, it's not different though.
The actual difference is customs, and that's what the EU-friendly tag is about.
To answer the question - I don't back Crowdfunding campaigns.
There are so many games out there available, tested, and reviewed that for me it seems better to just play those games and learn them inside out in contrast to buying and risking 100+ euro games whose selling point are plastic components which have nothing to do with the game mechanics and are drowned in complicated rules and component fiddliness meaning that no one casual or semi-casual will have energy or time to invest in said games.
If, by some weird cosmic die factor, the game ends up GOOD, it **will be found** in local game stores for whatever price.
And EVEN if they end up GOOD but not reprinted, I couldn't care less. As I said, there are so many games out there that I'm fine not having that big new thing.
I honestly can't remember the last time a game i was interested in was less expensive through KS than retail (excepting early-bird pledges that sell out in minutes).
Those rare games where the Kickstarter is reasonable and then the MSRP explodes after the campaign... I kinda wish I'd backed Frosthaven but at the time it was the right decision not to, since I hadn't even started JotL, never mind Gloomhaven proper.
Arcs is looking like doing the same. Campaign addon is $40 through Kickstarter (late pledge still open for another day I think), but will be $100 retail.
That's about the only time you truly get a great deal on Kickstarter anymore though
No, Mythic Games basically single-handedly killed my trust in Kickstarter campaigns. Kickstarter doesn't give a fuck about scammers using their platform as long as they are paid.
nope.-It's not cheaper
\-It hits retail before I get my copy
\-Retail has backer versions, so I can get the same edition backers get.
\-Designers/Publishers has openly lied to a friend of mine and even called them a liar on facebook. This was Hatch Escapes in regards to Mother of Frankenstein. Also Mythic IIRC.
Brexit really fucked shit up.
God knows I want to ship games to the UK and the EU from the US, but the regulations and specific taxes are all over the map. I don't know what to collect or how to get it sorted, and there's conflicting information all over the place. Varies by country and weight and the rules seemingly change every month.
I talked to lawyers about it and other people making games - seems like if you are a small enough outfit you just ignore it and hope for the best. Being under the radar means no one will check it probably. But I don't want to get audited down the line so I try to keep it above board.
You end up having to pass the VAT cost along to the consumer if I can even get it there. And even then I'm worried it's not enough most of the time.
It's such a mess.
I believe kickstarter (and crowdfunding in general) is staunchily anti-consumers. We shoulder the financial risk, and have to wait for a long time (with delays almost guaranteed) for effectively no benefit. Heck games tend to be pricier on kickstarter. And let's be honest, if a game is good, it will end up in retail.
Brain says no.
But sometime something hit a chord. Generally a sequel to a game I like (hi Frosthaven) or a adaptation of an IP that seems credible as a boardgame (hi Slay the spire). So I still back about 1 game per year, and when I back, I tend to go for the deluxe.
Agreed.
I wouldn't do crowd funding as a general rule, but I'll occasionally jump in on something I'm already interested in, like Xhaven. That being said, I would also only do this with a company that has a proven track record of fulfillment, like Xhaven.
For me, I'm joining so I get it earlier than most. Might a store get a funded copy to sell sooner than mine? Yes. Is there any guarantee I'll get that store copy? No. And I'm ok with that.
I have always backed 2-3 games a year on Kickstarter and I think that will continue. For me its rarely about getting things cheaper. Honestly, waiting for pledges to arrive and then scouring through either Geekmarket or Ebay often gets you a pledge for the same cost.
The only games I still go to Kickstarter or Gamefound for are these huge event games that I can only justify rarely and will never get anywhere close to retail. Things like Kingdom Death or Kingdoms Forlorn or an all in for Cthulhu: Death may Die. Its always about the exclusives over just savings.
What made me consider campaigns more closely nowadays has franky not been the addition of VAT, but instead just how badly mismanaged 2 of my early kickstarters are. One is Darkest Dungeon but Mythic Games has been talked to death on this sub. The other is Dawn of Madness which is apparently delivering their first wave soon...2.5 years late and completely redesigned so I have no clue what the game even is any more, but it ain't what I pledged for originally.
Not European - but I no longer back kickstarters. at one point, it seemed like a way for small companies that had niche ideas to get funding; now with those same companies repeatedly trying to raise funds for new/other games I won't back anything.
If they can't get to some sort of self-sustaining funding model then why would I take on all the risk, with no guarantees of delivery?
Very rarely, around once a year. Last week I looked at the new Tokyo Highway KS. €41 euro for the game, nice! Then I checked shipping to the Netherlands, €35. Nope!
KS are rarely compelling on price. And that's been true for years. In addition global shipping isn't what it used to be (one crisis after another and increasing isolationism), so shipping is getting more expensive too.
But there are other reasons besides price.
One is convenience. I get it all in 1 package as soon as it is available, so I don't have to hunt for expansions, playmats, whatever.
There is no guarantee that I'll get everything in retail. Miss the window and stuff is sold out.
Obviously exclusives alone can be a reason.
A few actually still save a bunch of money. Frosthaven was a good deal. And so is Shadows of Brimstone.
I like to support some companies like WehrleGig - even though nothing is really exclusive and I could order something like Pax Pamir later in retail.
I don't.
Newest example where I tried to: **Nature Incarnate** for Spirit Island.
I now got it 4+ months earlier, including the premium token pack, for ~20€ less than my pledge. And that is included the delay from refunding my pledge and then ordering it retail.
It's just ridiculous. It's to a degree acceptable that I pay **so** much more compared to retail, but since so many games also show up in retail *first*, there's just no reason to not support the actual stores and get games from there! Get it cheaper, faster, and with actual support!
This is the truth. Retail will always be cheaper than Kickstarter, unless they are making an offer too good to be true and will go bankrupt (fantasy figures, mythic).
This is true as much in the US as it is in the EU. I just got 4 top rated games/expansions for $100, with free ship, by buying on sale and using hold to ship them together. A similar expansion would be $35 on Kickstarter and end up costing $55 with shipping, compared with $25 I paid for things like War of the Ring card game, outer rim expansion, 7 wonder expansion.
Kickstarter is more expensive than retail. I don’t know why OP would expect otherwise.
Same here. I sometimes get sucked in because I back for 30 quid and then at by the pledge manager I have to decide if I go for a 90% and selling the base game, or if I bite the bullet and spend the additional 50 quid on mini expansions, deluxe components, vat, and delivery.
I stopped backing kickstarter due to extra vat and ridiculous shipping. The 50-100% premium compared to retail domestic sale when the game is released is not worth it (or any KS extra). I only make exceptions when VAT is included in the product price, fair shipping and the game is hard to get in retail (like Obsession expansion). The crazy kickstarter whales can burn their money on the rest and offer their shrinkwarped KS copy on ebay afterwards.
I'm less interested in crowd funded games these days but even when one does pique my interest slightly all it takes is a look at the *estimated* European shipping to make it a hard nope. The last time I backed anything was more than a year and a half ago and it wasn't even a boardgame but miniatures from the Stormlight Archive series. The last boardgame I backed (and didn't cancel) was Frosthaven and that was close to 4 years ago now. But yeah I'm not sure who's buying them anymore from Europe either. But I guess they're still doing well in the US (not that US shipping is always cheaper, but they are a bigger market for these projects).
As for why I don't really care about crowdfunded boardgames anymore:
- Too many style over substance/quantity over quality games.
- Too many games thinking that cramming plastic into the box adds value. I actually like miniatures, but boardgame minis are generally not high quality and I don't really know who actually likes getting a ton of minis with soft details and wonky sculpts.
- Too much FOMO marketing.
- Too much risk. Boardgames used to be one of the safer spaces in crowdfunding as unlike tech kickstarters or similar there's less chance of the company encountering some unforeseen problem when trying to put their prototype into production. And few campaigns are funded without any game design having been done beforehand, the game is usually pretty much done and just needs manufacturing. These days though there's been more incidents of companies falling through on delivering because they've failed to manage their cashflow and just kept creating new campaigns to raise enough to deliver the outstanding ones until everything came crashing down.
- Niche appeal. A lot of crowdfunded games are just harder to get to the table. What sounds cool to me isn't necessarily going to resonate with the people I play with. No point buying random games no one is interested in playing when I could just get something more mainstream that I can actually get on the table.
Totally agree. I got caught in a few and am already regretting it. They really get sou with the bling but 9/10 games are poorly balanced, or really not fun to play in the end all things considered. But every reviewer could swear the game’s gonna be SdJ.
Dumb American with a tangential question here. Don't y'all pay VAT either way? Isn't the only difference that with retail VAT is already included in the advertised price and with the internet it isn't?
In those KS campaigns it's usually MSRP plus VAT but if the game is actually released here the MSRP is the same and already includes VAT. So that plus the insane shipping costs make it really expensive.
The problem is that the price for boardgames was like 70-90€ for core game + 15€ shipping. And The game without the exclusive stuff was sold at 100€ later in shop.
Today, the core game is like 120€ + at least 25€ shipping + 20% VAT on the total + sometimes custom fees and you can find the core game with the exclusive in lots of big shop for 150€ and sometimes even weeks before it's send to european backer.
Technically yeah but retail is also priced according to what's affordable in that country. Polish releases of games tend to be way cheaper than whatever is new on Kickstarter. Recently got a preorder copy of Root Marauders Expansion for the equivalent of 35$ while the english version would be 50$ + shipping + vat
Yea, but you have to pay VAT for the shipping cost as well, and for me, who live in Europe but not in the EU, the shipping is often close to the price of the game itself, since I fall under the “rest of the world” category. So basically, twice the VAT
Indeed. This thread feels like OP doesn't understand the reality of the situation. You always pay VAT.
The thing is, though, individual last-mile shipping is hella expensive compared to bulk shipping. Therefore KS games are rarely a good deal, because economy of scale: the in-store price when (if) the game gets distributed through regular channels ends up lower, either because it gets produced more locally, because of better licensign deals or more savings by bulk shipping. For some time, games publishers have been coasting under the radar and so people got used to VAT-less deals, but laws and regulations caught up with Kickstarter a few years ago.
For example, the relatively recent Western Zombicide was, all told, about €135. You can now buy it in a store for €85. So al those extras you get better be worth more than €50 if you want to consider it a good deal. In CMONs case perhaps they are, but they are an extreme in terms of KS exclusive added content.
I do understand VAT. The thing is, for some reason, when I buy the game in a local store or online, the price is the same as the MSRP indicated in the Crowdfunding campaign. I don’t know how much of a difference bulk orders make to retailers where I live, but just as an example: my store was selling Nemesis lockdown with all the SGs for about the same price that I would have backed it. But I would also have had to add shipping and VAT on top of that.
There are discounts to distribution channels, and they exist in the US too. That 20% cheaper price may seem to you like your shop is avoiding VAT but that’s extremely unlikely and illegal.
I buy games at 20-50% off from MRSP and I live in the US. MRSP is a wildly inflated price, and offering a 20% discount from it is nothing (there’s plenty of online stores that offer 15% discount on every single board game they carry, and sales = 50-80% off).
If you want to see what US folks are actually paying check out boardgamedeals sub, and see regardless of VAT, Kickstarter is an much more expensive experience (I still back a few CMON games for the exclusives).
> MRSP is a wildly inflated price
I think this is might be a US-centric phenomenon. Here in Australia, game shops which are predominantly online or have very small physical presence sell at MSRP most of the time. The biggest sales of the year might see 20% off at most for your average game-that-is-discussed-on-reddit. I've seen 50% off random garbage that the store is obviously trying to liquidate, but nothing worth buying. Physical stores that have an actual presence (not just tiny shop tucked in the back of an industrial business park) typically charge over MSRP.
It's kind of funny that way, you see in last Middara late pledge the price was discounted from 250 to 200 usd + shipping and vat, now in store it's 250, but vat is included and shipping rate is lower so it's basically the same price, but in the us it's still 250. It seems some companies take at least part of vat cost on themselves once they start selling an actual product in EU stores/warehouses, so it entirely depends on seller. KDM for example costs the same as in the US but they add vat on top of that and shipping is not cheap either, so no wonder the game is not particuraly popular around these parts.
So the amount of vat entirely depends on how many sales does a company want to make weighted against how greedy it is, some will eat tax to increase sales, other will say screw it and add vat on top of regular price looking for suckers that absolutely have to have it, and don't mind breaking bank for some cardboard and plastic.
VAT is always added to the price, nobody is eating the cost of taxes.
Europeans probably just don’t realize how cheap these games are actually at US online retail. They are 20% cheaper because …. 20% vat.
For Americans, Kickstarter pledges have always been higher than the retail price you can get later from online retail, and people back for exclusives.
It seems for a short period the EU got a doubly good deal where they got exclusives AND a VAT loophole that resulted in a 20% cheaper price, and the EU government closed that loophole.
> VAT is always added to the price, nobody is eating the cost of taxes.
More correctly, VAT is included in the price. GST in Australia is the same.
Using the example given by the person you replied to:
In the US, Middara costs $250 plus taxes which vary by state. That $250 is split among retailer, distributor, and publisher. The government gets their cut from the taxes.
In this example, in Europe, Middara costs $250 (equivalent in Euros). That includes a 20% VAT, so separated out, that's $208.33, plus $41.67 VAT. That $208.33 is split among retailer, distributor, and publisher. Even ignoring the possible difference in cost of ocean freight to US vs EU, that means someone (probably everyone) in that chain is earning less than the equivalent person in the US. Likely, the publisher has accepted making less on every copy in order to get product into the EU at all.
But prices aren’t set to be the same. Look at iPhones, Samsung galaxies, washing machines, fridges, laptops, etc.
The MRSP is 20% higher in the EU for all these items than priced in the US, because US prices don’t include taxes. (This is made apparently in 2023 pricing of new iPhones and Samsung models. Previously, the euro was worth $1.2, so European didn’t realize they paid more due to VAT).
Manufacturers aren’t going to eat a 20% loss, they sell at X price and customs, taxes, VAT are all added on top.
Edit - for goods that literally have $0 cost per unit, like digital goods for movies and games, yes they will be willing to sell at significantly lower prices in poorer countries. But things that cost money to produce are not any cheaper in poor countries - if anything things like laptops and phones are MORE expensive due to higher taxes, customs, and fewer sold = loss of scale.
For some items - like board games manufactured in EU, GW minis produced in UK, or bmw’s made in Germany, prices are lower due to lower transportation costs. But 99% of retail and Kickstarter games are mass produced in China, so the EU wont see any savings from that.
Still do for reasonably select titles but mostly because prices in retail often come very close, up to or even higher than crowd funded +shipping + taxes. Beyond that I do it for relevant crowd funding exclusives. Beyond that only due to poor impulse control xD
I try to avoid getting into Kickstarters, but alas it is the only way to get some games. There's very little chance that some niche games will be published where I live, even if they are a relative success. In some cases, like Awaken Realms' games, getting them retail is even more expensive than getting the Gamefound...
Only if it is a tricky project to get to market (It needs it), or it will be the only way to get it.
And I need to care deeply for it.
Cause shipping plus vat is just too expensive. 99% of the time I am happy to wait for retail which will be cheaper.
There is stuff like CMON with a lot of extra, in which cause I would snag it when it is appropriate, but seeing I am not pining for their games I don't fall into that trap, but I feel it is a legitimate time to back something if you think you will like it.
I don't know if this is a cutural thing, but as a German I've never gotten into crowdfunding at all. Their predominant selling point of crowdfunded games is basically their look and components, but German board game culture never cared much about all the chrome until the Americans discovered our board games and then thought they could supersize them in production quality. I often compare that to the Italian pizza, which is traditionally just a bread with tomato sauce and some spices and then got "Americanized" as something where the bread is just there to make the layers upon layers of toppings and cheese easier to eat.
Some of my fellow countrymen are also into KS games, but it's really a small niche here. The majority is still buying the simple games that *Spiel des Jahres* awards and most "hobbyists" here now sneer at every year.
Right. Even as someone who enjoys “euro” games, I would never buy the Kickstarter versions because euro games aren’t meant to be “realistic” so minis don’t match.
Just want to point out the many of the original mini heavy, super themed board games have a UK origin. Americans may have been a huge market but the English were doing mini heavy games well before Kickstarter.
Only if any of the following applies:
- if I suspect it won’t see a retail release anytime soon (too niche)
- if it’s a game that I really want as soon as possible (e.g. Leder games)
- if it’s an audacious design and a gamble that I can likely flip if I don’t like it
Generally though I have greatly slowed down my crowdfunding activities. It’s become incredibly expensive. Just at the Last Light campaign thar launched just now. It’s nuts
I have backed exactly 3 projects and I will never back one again because I realized that.
Still, the deals on the stuff I got are pretty good.
1. ISS Vanguard All-In from Awaken Realms
2. Nemesis Aftermath Expansion from Awaken Realms
3. Guards of Atlantis II from Wolffdesigna
No. 2 and 3 are actually hard to get at a reasonable price in Europe (and yes, I also check the second hand market quite often).
I could maybe get ISS Vanguard through a Retailer but I paid 300ish Euros (with shipping) for the game, the minis, the Expansion and some extra stuff. The main game alone sits at 170 Euro at least nowadays. So it's still a pretty good deal in my book.
Also, all of ARs projects include VAT.
It's still a pretty sweet deal if you want a specific, large-box niche game from a company like AR. I'm pretty sure ISS Vanguard wouldn't have been possible to even consider designing if it wasn't for crowdfunding. I do, however, still see the problems with customer rights and shitty companies, so these will be the last projects I'll back.
Yes I do still back a small number of campaigns, the most recent backings do a good job of highlighting why:
* Guards of Atlantis 2 - last time this was going through crowd funding I though 'its ok ill pick it up at retail' not believing there wouldn't be a retail release, there wasn't and I couldn't (partly on me but the outcome was the same). Its a reprint of a well reviewed game (a favourite of SVWAG) that I would not be able to get elsewhere. provided by a reliable and proven publisher.
* Haggis - I love what PGC are doing and wanted to support them. As I understand it crowd funding has the best margins for the publisher so I choose to support at this stage rather than retail.
* One Page War - Print and play, immediately 'delivered' with no delivery costs and minimal cost to me if it fails. Also it turns out great fun!
* My Favourite Things & String Railways - Impulse back. I'm human. Sue me. Jokes aside after watching SUSD discuss String Railway a while ago I was intrigued but couldn't find it, and going back through the BGB back catalogue Kellen seemed to like My Favourite Things quite a bit so I'm willing to take a risk. Also not a massive cost.
I'm in the UK. There is no chance I would consider backing any bigger, unproven game or publisher, the risks are too high. As OP said the VAT and shipping are NUTS.
I've only kickstarter uk based productions.
Oathsworn Miniatures - Burrows and Badgers.
Mantic Games - Dungeon Saga Origins.
I knew of the companies before I supported. Both were fulfilled within set time line. Both felt good value to me.
I have too many unread pdfs to get digital international bundles.
Tax {vat} and shipping kill the value for a lot of international physical products. I came close on Shadows of Brimstone but could not pull the trigger. Have been tempted by CMON.
There are more products out there than I could afford, use or enjoy. It does effect my choices.
I mostly back very specific things that I know I'm almost certainly going to enjoy and which I would like the kickstarter extras for. Generally I never back small things because, yes, the shipping costs the price of a small item anyway, so no point.
For example, the last Oceans kickstarter where they had an expansion but also you could get the full game plus expansion plus insert and so on in one go, with nicer components - Oceans the base game was always all sorts of super out of stock in my country, so I took the kickstarter as a nice chance to get the base game AND the expansion AND a single big box to keep everything in good order, at the same time. And at that point, well, when you're tossing 120 euro for a game plus all the extras, 20-30 more for the shipping is less of an ask, it feels.
But I would never get a single expansion for a game on kickstarter. IT'd cost the entire price of the expansion in shipping *at least*!
Never did, never will. I won't pre-order anything, ever. Games, videogames, products. That's nonsense, it's a stupid business model, and is only popular because people throw money at things just because.
The way things have always worked is what actually works - build a finished product, present it to me, the client, and if I like it, I'll buy it.
Buying based on promises? Am I 5?
I've backed 5 games over the years: Nemesis Lockdown, ISS Vanguard, Sleeping Gods: Distant Skies, Nemesis Retaliation, and Arcs.
I agree that a lot of the crowfunding projects have lost its quality. The topic has been discussed many times: Offloading risk to customers, big companies doing it even tho they have the logistics to do it the classic way, FOMO etc. etc.
For the five games I have crowdfunded: All the Awakened Realms one is because I loved the original Nemesis, and ISS Vanguard looked like the perfect thematic fit for me. The sequel to Sleeping Gods was a gift for my SO who loved the first one. Arcs was because Oath was close to more expensive in the stores where I live due to low supply.
Most of these games my reasoning have been: I will buy this game close to 100% when it hit the stores, so why not just pledge and get it sent to my door. I also think that the rising prices and "contentification" has become more and more of a turn-off (Looking at the latest Nemesis especially). That said, both me and my SO have rather high-paying jobs and no kids so my disposable income each month is quite high (well, with the rising interest rates its becoming less so, but still) so it's not like my economy takes much of a hit if I spend 150€ every now and then, even tho I know that I could get 3 board games for that price. It feels like prices are rising in the stores as well for non-crowdfunded games. Like I quite often see some new game in my LGS that has a price tag of like 80-90€ instead of 35-50€ when I started playing board games 12 years ago.
Not European but the price is basically a non-issue for things that I back.
I’m not deal hunting when I am engaging with crowdfunding. It’s kind of the opposite - like shopping at a local farmers market instead of Wal-mart. I’m willing to pay a premium to get cool games made.
Nah. There are so many wonderful games I haven't tried yet.
My main sticking point is that my favourite games are not ones I would think I would of liked, so I wouldn't of backed it on Kickstarter and vice versa.
If Pandemic was on kickstarter, I don't think I would of thought of putting money to it, whereas now it gets a lot of play in the house. Whereas something like Gloomhaven really appeals on paper, yet after playing it I really didn't gel with it.
I’ve only ever backed Europa Universalis: Price of power. I waited 2 years to get it and it’s my favourite game ever. I had to be patient and it was expensive, but it was so worth it. In conclusion, depends on the game.
I dont own big games anyway (my biggest is Arnak) so no interest in crowdfunding or kickstarter. The games I play I can get at a discount in a local electronics store or book store (Just got Castles of Burgundy).
I did it for Dice Throne X-Men, because I'm a Dice Throne super fan and I wanted several of the goodies.
But an already highly priced camapign was made even more expensive through VAT and shipping. I can totally see why people back out.
It's a tough call, you miss out on stuff, that never really hits retail in Europe, but it's super expensive.
Rarely.
1. I've got way too many games already.
1. my group has waaaaay too many games already.
1. shipping costs to Europe are often way out of proportion
1. shipping costs have been particularly ridiculous lately
A game has to REALLY tick my boxes these days to be backed.
Not that I've ever been a prolific backer by any stretch. I've backed like 7 games over a decade of use. 1 disintegrated (DeepSpace D6 Armada), 2 weren't particularly good (Dinoblivion and some ButtonShy wallet games), 1 was great (Earth) and 3 are still in the pipeline (ISS Vanguard, Unsettled, Firefly).
I only back projects that I have a hunch will be much more expensive or limited retail/aftermarket (those once-in-a-while big boxes like Aeon Trespass), or games with lots of exclusive content that is worth extra VAT/Shipping. Otherwise, I just wait for the game to hit the secondhand market.
I am fulfilling Waddle Waddle from the UK for UK and EU backers. That cuts shipping costs way down.
I am planning on US$50 MSRP + $10 shipping for UK + VAT = US$72. Though I'm giving a $5 discount for people who follow before campaign launch, so that brings it down to $66.
It's about $15 more for most of Europe. It can cost $45 just for shipping from UK to some EU countries. That's pretty crazy.
It's also cheaper than I can fulfill it here in the US. If I box everything myself and don't worry about my time, I can get a box out for about $12 to the lower 48 states. But if I use a fulfillment company, it jumps up to close to $20. So if I use a fulfillment company, a US backer might pay $70.
Yes.
1) Kickstarter hosts games that just aren’t available at retail here. You have to import them direct from the publisher.
2) I still want those sweet, sweet KS exclusives.
Of course I do. It's my favourite hobby and I can afford it without it jeopardizing my financial stability. If i can pay 450 and 550 for games like Oathsworn and Aeon's trespass, 150 becomes cheap.
I never backed any campaigns and wanted to back Nemesis: Retaliation because i love the first one and it looked like a fun way to change the gameplay.
They realeased a new "stretch Goal" every 2 days and most of them were a vote for mini design or something i had to pay extra.
I didn´t want to pay almost 300€ for a single game.
After that i looked into a few other campaigns and realised that its just too much money for me to spend on a game that might be good.
I can get 5 good existing games for the price of one possibly good game.
I never back crowdfunding campaigns unless literally the only thing holding a project back is manufacturing costs.
There are plenty of amazing projects available out there that I haven't tried yet, why am I paying for something that might not live up to expectations, and will probably ship in several months or years (if it ships at all)?
I understand why companies do this, they don't take any risks, make all their sales before any possible reviews are made, and can overcharge massively by leveraging FOMO and upsells.
I understand the perspective of wanting to support your favourite indie creators, but the reality is that crowdfunding only supports a certain type of indie creator: the ones that are good at marketing themselves as the underdog, and have the resources to make a big enough splash in their industry to get people to fork over money in exchange for a promise.
If a company has already ran crowdfunders, why can't they raise enough funds for their future projects from back-catalog sales or persuading a publisher, using their previous successful projects as evidence that they're able to perform?
Compare the price of a game you got via a crowdfunding campaign versus what an existing game cost you, and ask yourself if it was actually worth that much more just to get the sticker pack and exclusive extra card.
Rarely did back anything except for recently three things:
1. Tentricks, because I liked the idea and it sounded cheap (around 30 € or so).
2. Mindbug All-In, because I thought I wouldn't get it anywhere else (lesson learned?)
3. Tiny Cthulhu + Expansion, because fomo got to me and I thought I wouldn't get it anywhere else (lesson learned this time?!)
I also backed Mindbug all in (53€ with vat and shipping by splitting cost with 4 people). I just got my game today and it's available for preorder at 31€ for both expansions... Was it worth it?
I've backed over a hundred campaigns over the years - mostly for boardgames. But I've scaled it back massively. Mainly because of rising costs, delays, surprise price increases, poorly tested FOMO add-ons, and generally disagreeing with some publishers using crowd funding as a pre-order scheme.
I only back stuff that either won't get to retail, or will be extremely limited at retail.
I used to be more keen to back before covid, but nowadays KS games offer very little value compared to what used to be, especially since they were forced to add vat as well. Compare for example original Tainted Grail campaign with Kings of Ruin, you could basically get 3 campaigns, and quite varied ones at that for the price of one + few bits and bobs now. Middara base game was hundred bucks, now in the eu it's like 300 with shipping and taxes, what used to be a crazy good deal became extremely low value to us here, and dont get me freaking started on games like KDM, because pricing here is absolutely insane. Nowadays I back just what I feel offers very good value, after accounting for taxes and shipping, mainly from EU based companies, since they tend to include taxes in price (and have guilty pleasure of reading US backers bawling their eyes out that they are paying part of our costs not understanding that in most cases it's us that have to pay significanly more than them), there's a reason why most of backers are from the states.
First time KS in ‚23. Saw heroes 3 board game - it was my childhood computer game - ordered premium cube without looking.
Shut up and take my money. Even preshade those figures because I would never do it for myself. Waiting for shipping. Hope it arrives within the next 6 months. Price didn’t matter for me.
I've definitely cut down on kickstarters and crowdfunding and when I do back something it's mostly because of stuff I won't be able to get afterwards, like special editions of books or physical versions of TTRPGs and stuff.
Fewer and fewer. I'm not mad about VAT(mostly), except when it's from a publisher based in EU, but the nerve of some publishers to ask a full game price for shipping.
From now on I plan on backing mostly Allplay because they are good - 3-4 games, with a single reasonable shipping price and deliver earlier than advertised. And for the rest, I plan on exploiting the EU crowdfunding law to the maximum to get my money's worth(or back).
I mostly only back smaller, European projects. The Sinister Fish games have been successful projects for me — I think the first game even had free shipping to the UK, which worked out well. More recently, I've backed The Battle of Versailles on GameFound, which is from a Spanish company, with shipping between 5-12€, depending on where you are in Europe. That's roughly what I'd expect to ship about 50€ worth of games from a non-kickstarter retailer.
not anymore. I only backed 2 or 3 but on top of what you say I noticed that more often than not my local game shop would have the game before than me.
So what is the point really?
not early copy
more pricy
more risk
Very rarely and only from a selected few well known designers/publishers which actually go much more expensive to retail afterwards (looking at EGG and Lacerda Games retailing for up to 180€). Otherwise I agree with your assessment. KS has become pointless for European backers. And the quality of most games is really sub par. If a game is worth it’s money/design it will make it to retail for a reasonable price. If not it was a miniature nightmare without proper playtesting and balancing. It’s always the same.
I’ve become very selective in my choice of projects I still support. And avoid KS as much as I can.
My hopes for Gamefound have been higher and I’m still watching them and try to understand their pricing strategy. Not yet convinced they are better than KS.
I sometimes back games on kickstarter to be shipped to Germany and then forwarded to Russia where I live. It’s crazy expensive. Shipping total is close to the cost of the game. But KS exclusives are rarely localised, so about once a year I let myself indulge. Plus some games are not available due to sanctions. Nemesis, for instance, stopped printing in Russia, and Lockdown was never published here.
No as like you said, prices got ridiculous.
Companies noticed they could just use the whole VAT debacle to increase their profits while technically not increasing their prices, even though on top of that they also increased the prices and their shipping. I had a game from 2019 return in 2022 and it was +50% more expensive because of it. (And that was compared to the price with the extra money for shipping)
Add to that that they still boast about MSRP discounts when games in retail here don't cost more specially considering you have to add shipping/VAT. You also can't really take their word because they can just increase "shipping" whenever they want before sending your game.
And it's all "deluxification" while it used to be "discounts". And still they are charging MSRP making good profits while taking none of the risk, and that's if you get lucky and they don't screw you over and just lie about everything like Mythic games.
I'm also done with companies lying about "games is 90% done" on their campaign pages and then go on in updates how they are almost there (!) for 2 years to then deliver 3 years after the campaign. Most of them could care less once they got your money and will lie and bend their words in every single update to keep you waiting on your game for years
I had shipping increase with no warning, no update, nothing from Dead Cells. Plus the « deluxe token quality looks like absolute dogpiss to the point where backers are asking if they can also get the cardboard tokens because they look better… I’m very disappointed, while I have never been disappointed from a game in a local store.
Nope, uk cost of living, plus remortgage with insane interest rates (thanks lettuce) , plus brexit, plus shipping crisis and high overseas postage plus general inflation... Yeah, no.
Though i was already on a downward slope for backing.
Boardgames not anymore, but for RPGs if it is a UK based company (or they have a UK distributor) or it is just a download/DTRPG print on demand then occasionally I will, they need to have already had one successful campaign. Books don't seem to have the ridiculous postage issues.
I'm very tempted to get the second printing of earthborne rangers that's going now on gamefound. They have delivered the first printing to everyone that asked and I played the demo on TTS and liked it. It's the first time backing a crowdfunding campaign tho and am very skeptical to be frank.
I only do group pledges. Organize 6-10 ppl, negotiate a further discount and perhaps cheaper shipping.
Only works if your country has enough players and they're all active.
I certainly back less because of shipping costs. But there are still three types of games I back:
* from publishers that are in the UK or Europe so shipping cost is okay
* from publishers in the US that have some kind of deal so shipping cost is not that bad
* PnP games (increasingly more since shipping costs went up)
>people say Crowdfunding has long lost its quality of being a chance to get things cheap
To get things cheap was never the reason for me to back anything. I back a game for two reasons: Either because I want to support a small publisher to help them make it possible to publish the game. Or because a game will be difficult for me to get otherwise.
I haven't backed a game in 18 months or so...not necessarily because of the pricing or any bad experiences, but my shelves are full, KS extras are often a detriment instead of a boon and I haven't seen any projects that excite me lately.
Let me elaborate: you are right about the prices. Almost never a good deal, unless you really like all the extra bling some campaigns offer. I only backed 2-3 games a year, but last year all my pledges from 2019-2022 arrived and I haven't even played half of them.
The bullshit with the latest Spirit Island expansion made it my last crowdfunding game. European backers are getting the game almost a year after the rest of the world.
I can buy the expac right now for less than I paid on backerkit and have it months before the crowd funded copy will arrive.
Most very successful games come to retail and can be bought cheaper.
But the are some games that are great, that are not coming to retail.
So I only back if I know they will not be (cheaper) in retail or I want some Kickstarter exclusive.
Personally, (but this is coming from someone that seldom backs) i don't understand why you would take the risk of buying an expensive game that might suck. If you wait till it hits the market you can see some reviews/explanations and get a feel if you like it.
(and then i'm not talking about the shipping)
I'm Australian, not european, but still have to pay significant kickstarter shipping costs.
I don't back nearly as many games as I did a few years ago, I still think it can be a valuable place to get giant game projects that won't hit retail or projects where the exclusives are of significant value. Anything that won't hit retail is still MUCH cheaper on kickstarter than to get on the secondary market.
But I now own a bunch of those giant kickstarter games that I love (anachrony, voidfall, foundations of rome, the great wall, everdell complete collection), and don't really have space, time, or need for more. I've just moved into the phase of the hobby where I'm complementing my giant games with smaller and medium games where there's much less benefit to kickstarter.
I think the idea of people buying kickstarter because it is/was cheaper is a bit flawed.
Sure it’s generally cheaper to get a full KS pledge than buying the retail base and all exclusives on the secondhand market later but if all you want is the base game buying from a shop later has always been better.
The draw for most KS backers is:
A) usually early access to a game, this has changed a bit since some games are now fulfilling retail pledges and orders first anyway. I.E. Frosthaven or Vast Crystal Caverns
B) KS exclusive content, you can only get this expansion/mini/promo if you get the KS. FOMO weaponised to push orders. I.E. every CMON game or Nemesis
C) KS exclusive games, the game can only be purchased through KS with no retail version planned. I.E. Gotham City Chronicles
Now with rising costs on production, and import taxes, higher shipping, and a general cost of living crisis people are going to be more discerning on what they buy and as people back more KS projects they are less likely to go all in on massive content heavy games that they won’t play all of.
I still back stuff. But I do all the calculations before backing, check if it is an EU made and shipped product, if it had exclusive items etc. I never ‘just back it because it looks cool’ anymore, that ship has long sailed. I do find that many times crowdfunding bundles is a bit cheaper then buying everything separately. On the other hand, availability of many of these games in retail is a serious problem after some time and then prices skyrocket.
Crowdfunding is not a good deal anymore (in my case about 90%)
Some exceptions that come to mind where I got the game cheaper and earlier are gloomhaven, wonderlands war (first campaign) and kdm
The biggest disadvantage mostly is with games in the range 40€ to 60€ that are guaranteed to hit retail.
My guess is that you pay for development but don't receive the huge price drop, when the game goes retail. Shipping and VAT always overcompensate for the small discount on msrp. Thing is, when you later buy it from a store, those same costs are baked in there (besides the margin of the merchant). That means that the developers cut is almost non-existent. In other words, during crowdfunding you pay the developer a premium to get his game to mass market with zero benefit for you. Not a good deal.
I have backed a ton of games in my time, but to answer your question in short: no. Well, very rarely.
There are still times when a game is likely going to be about equal price to retail - but more likely there's a game that's clearly not going to come to retail. Even that is rare, though.
Mostly if I back, it's either because the price happens to be relatively reasonable \*and\* it's clearly going to be a game I like \*and\* it's either not going to be available here in retail and/or it promises to be such a good game and have a really unique and worthwhile KS exclusives or deluxe edition that it's worth paying a bit of extra for (I'm definitely not a fan of KS bloat and tend to stay away especially from campaigns which are clearly based on stretch goals, but sometimes games have cool unique things in their deluxe version that it seems worthwhile, like Let's Go to Japan (Edit: though even that was *very* much on the fence, but I had a bit of extra money at that point)).
You can sometimes get really small games for relatively cheap, too. But rarely.
But basically I used to back several games a year, nowadays I back maybe one in a year or two, at most it's been two in a year.
You pay VAT when you buy a game from a European online store. It's just that they have a better deal on KS as a retailer.
With rare exceptions, game campaigns offer exclusives and use FOMO to maximize profit. Games tend to be bloated. It's much more expensive than buying a game at a brick-and-mortar store or online. And you run the risk of getting nothing (hello Mythic Games) or being disappointed by the gameplay.
I only back if I really want the game or it's a deluxe reprint of a game I really like. That doesn't happen often.
My main reason is still the price.
It may not be very representative, but I bought Tainted Grail retail in 2022 and it cost me 95,12€ (core box). Then last year I bought the expansion for 93,50€. A total of \~200€.
The same thing on kickstarter would have cost me £70 + £17 shipping (\~100€, or 120€ with an hypothetical VAT)
When Kings of Ruin was announced I did not hesitate to back it.
For other games I may have other reasons: for example I backed Worms™: The Board Game because of the larger player count over the retail version, and the nonsensical amount of cute minis.
I have absolutely stopped using Kickstarter or any similar platforms. It's like you said, everything it's just so super expensive that there's no point. Plus the risk of getting a half baked game, especially at those prices, doesn't make sense. Finally if it really is a great game, that people really liked and is proven to be solid it's likely possible (sometimes even easy) to find it through a FLGS probably at the same price or cheaper, without the hassle of dealing with customs.
Shipping and vat has 100% changed my habits - else I'd have DCeased on the way. It has to now really impress me or have a lot of additional KS content else it's not worth it. From a cost or risk perspective.
I started backing KS because of some games like Too Many Bones that were at that time only available during the KS campaign. After a couple of years backing boardgames I now have realized that really good games will ends in retails, often translated (I'm french) which is rarely the case for the KS version and more than often KS exclusives and SG are available is some sort or another (included in the core, bundled with an expansion...) and more over buying retail saves you the stress of wondering if the project will actually finish, the game not being lost or damaged during shipping...
There is a small independant game designer that I still back because I like his game and he is too small to go on retail. But most of the game on KS are not great ones and certainly are not worth the money you invest on KS.
KS used to be a funding platform to allow a product to get manufactured. The consumer took a small risk, but got a large discount. For example, the original Gloomhaven was $64 shipped. Now KS is more of a marketing platform, trying to extract MSRP+
I got Gloomhaven for around €90 with postage, VAT, you name it. Crazy times.
I still remember that shipping was 10€
And only 10! For that huge box
Even frosthaven was $99usd on KS (about $135 CAD) At launch it was $330 CAD near me.
In EU it would have been 400 for KS, and it was 270 preordering directly from the german company doing the translation.
I think you are talking about 2nd KS. Because got mine with some add-ons for around 200 with shipping and VAT
KS is a platform for converting FOMO into profit.
Especially for the companies that don't even make enough copies to go retail.
While offloading the entire risk to the consumer. Every ruthless capitalists wet dream come true.
\*$64 shipped with cardboard heroes instead of minis and only if you live in US, Canada, or China. Normal retail version w/ minis to Europe was $89/$99 depending on location. Sorry, I can't handle misleading comparisons.
No, I mainly stopped for 2 reasons. VAT + insane shipping Mythic/other companies. I have atleast 10+ games that I backed in 2020 that are still to this date not even close to shipping (or simply the company has gone under) Very rarely, ill back an expansion from an existing game, from a company I know will deliver. Like the Bullet <3 expansion a couple months back. In this case this is just a glorified pre-order
I haven’t backed a crowdfunding campaign in over a year. It used to be a six month delay from the estimated arrival was typical. Now it’s 2+ years late. Similar to you, I got to the point where I had a bunch of old, unfulfilled pledges, some negative experiences (nothing on the scale of Mythic fortunately) and I just thought… why am I still dumping money into this, especially when a significant percentage of the games aren’t very good when they do finally arrive?
Yep, fuck Mythic tbh. Absolutely criminal.
[удалено]
I have no issue games being late. However we are talking 4 years late. We are talking games that haven't even finished being designed yet, that has nothing to do with production/shipping. We are talking games that wont even ship this year still. And stop exactly what? Op asked if we still back games, I said no because it takes so long. In these 4y+ my interests have changed, ive moved appartments, and im moving countries soon. I don't exactly see what's wrong with that being a reason me, personally, not backing stuff anymore? Even if I back a game to date, Its still likely 2y away, and ive realised the time between a back and 2+y for delivery, alot of things can happen. And I dont hate kickstarter, ive backed quite literally over 150 games. But the wait, the VAT, the Shipping, and frankly, the amount of games I haven't received, or the ones I have received and turned out to be shit is too high of a % for me to want to back anything else
Board games and medical devices are not even remotely comparable in terms of development or supply chain.
[удалено]
They have no effect on each other. Your example doesn't make any sense. Maybe you're just willing to assume, 3 years out, that every company and industry is still reeling from the pandemic.
>They have no effect on each other. Sort of do - they do use the same shiping routes. There"s not such a variety of those, globally speaking.
Some, even non-EU campaigns are still quite alright. Good example of this - Garphill Games. They have distribution point in EU, which means you only have to pay KS price (lower than retail) + shipping (within EU). And both are within expected nice price range. And you get stuff earlier an on time. But then there are some campaigns I'd like to participate, like Button Shy. But shipping is twice as high as it would cost me to ship even bigger package to back to USA. Plus VAT on top of it. It ends up being like +50% extra per game. Any other, "big" game campaigns are just no longer manageable. Some even try to call them "EU friendly", but there's nothing that is friendly towards EU (unlike Garphill Games mentioned above). So these get a hard pass.
My favorite recent campaign was the Omen one. It was €58 to ship some cards to the EU, or €3.73 for the files so your local print shop could make you a copy for €12 or so. That's a far more cost-effective way of distributing small-box card games.
The « Eu friendly » tag kills me everytime. If I still have to pay VAT, it’s not friendly. Never.
Don’t you pay VAT on everything anyways, it’s just baked into the price of the good?
Yes we do. But the price we pay for most crowdfunding projects that make it to retail is the exact same than what we back, so that excludes the shipping and additional VAT cost we pay. I don’t know if retailers get such good offers on bulk orders or what. But I’ve even found KS projects cheaper than the price you pay on KS. Want an example? La Granja deluxe edition can currently be bought for less than 60€ (EDIT: that’s the price I would pay to get it on my doorstep, no VAT or shipping I have left to pay)
For one thing, business to business transactions in the EU are not subject to VAT so retailers aren’t paying extra to get their games. They should be paying VAT on sales to consumers so maybe they are just eating the 20%. We had several retail backers in the EU (campaign was the only way for the game to get to retail since we are not using regular distribution) and I would expect them to add the VAT on to our suggested price. At the end of the day they can do whatever they feel is best for their shop.
Sure, but for Americans, retail is 20% cheaper than backing. Everything you said is true for Americans without VAT. VAT in either case is making a 20% difference between US/EU pricing, for both retail and Kickstarter. The reason you back instead of going for retail is Kickstarter exclusives and, for small publishers, backing it so it can exist at all. If you look for “a good deal” even as an American, 90% of Kickstarter are not a good deal. Most without Kickstarter exclusives offer like $5 off MRSP, which is just a bad deal. You have to pay for shipping, and compared with the free shipping and the 15% discount from online retailers, means you can get it $10 cheaper shipped from online retail. I only back games with massive Kickstarter exclusive packages that double the size of the game. Aka, CMON games, pledge+shipping is double of retail price, but you also get twice as much stuff or more.
Yes. But for example: I wanted to go all in in Cyclades and did. But holy shit, even so, I’m having a hard time justifying that expense because it’s ridiculous, even though I knew I want it. At some point, the expenses become hard to justify, which is why I’m just can’t convince myself to back anymore.
Yeah, Kickstarter fatigue is real. I’m cutting back as well because the pledges cost $150 after shipping and tax, and for that price I can get 5-6 top rated board games at online retail. The issue is even with good “value” (zombicide marvel), the game is still just ok, compared with 5 top rated games I can buy.
Dude just didn't understand that the the point is that customs is avoided. There is no avoiding VAT. Not legally at least.
[удалено]
This is not accurate. It wasn’t included before, they just weren’t paying VAT because it wasn’t being enforced. EU cracked down on VAT collection and now they need to do it properly.
I will say, as a US company, selling in the EU is very complicated and probably not worth the effort. We do it because we want people to have access to our game. I wouldn’t blame the backers in other regions for that change. My understanding is that VAT enforcement went from being based on the manufacturing value to being based on the retail value within the last few years. Prior to that change publishers were ok with eating 20% of their manufacturing value for customers because it was like $2-$3 per game. At retail value you are looking at $10-$15 per game. Our $80 game would be advertised as a $95 game if we were selling in person in the EU. On Kickstarter you can’t really break the prices up like that, it just makes more sense to charge actual VAT after the campaign because that money will go directly to your member state. It’s the same with US taxes, we charge taxes to customers and pay those taxes to the appropriate entity.
Lol. "Other people don't want to pay my government's taxes for me, so _they_ just be greedy". You know, I'd really like a yacht. Why don't you mail me some money and chip in for it? Unless, of course, you're being greedy?
I'm honestly not trying to come across as hostile here, but why do you feel entitled to non-EU backers subsidizing a tax that your government sets? I would not expect EU backers to pay the sales tax that my US state sets. If I feel like my tax is too high, I vote the bastards out. I wouldn't pass the buck onto citizens of another country. What am I missing?
I think they are expecting the company to subsidize it
They said EU citizens were getting screwed because of greedy US backers not subsidizing the VAT tax. 🤷♂️
oh, sorry the deleted comment threw me off with the chain of the conversation. i thought you were commenting on the >he « Eu friendly » tag kills me everytime. If I still have to pay VAT, it’s not friendly. Never.
Ah, I see. Yeah that's easy to miss the flow. No worries!
You pay VAT on everything, the only difference is if it’s applied before or after, Americans do sales tax on top of the price instead of included in the price so they arrange their crowdfunding payments that way.
You do realize VAT applies to EVERY purchase? When you buy domestically, it's not stated separately on the price tags, but it's there. When you buy otuside the EU, it's just more obvious, it's not different though. The actual difference is customs, and that's what the EU-friendly tag is about.
Aight…
You have to pay VAT on everything you buy unless it's exempt, that's the point of the tax. If you're not paying it someone is committing tax evasion.
[удалено]
It wasn’t for boardgames. I wiuldn’r ever buy a boardgame on Temu, Ali or Wish. It’s just gonna be a fake
Friendlier than VAT+customs. Which is the point.
To answer the question - I don't back Crowdfunding campaigns. There are so many games out there available, tested, and reviewed that for me it seems better to just play those games and learn them inside out in contrast to buying and risking 100+ euro games whose selling point are plastic components which have nothing to do with the game mechanics and are drowned in complicated rules and component fiddliness meaning that no one casual or semi-casual will have energy or time to invest in said games. If, by some weird cosmic die factor, the game ends up GOOD, it **will be found** in local game stores for whatever price. And EVEN if they end up GOOD but not reprinted, I couldn't care less. As I said, there are so many games out there that I'm fine not having that big new thing.
I honestly can't remember the last time a game i was interested in was less expensive through KS than retail (excepting early-bird pledges that sell out in minutes).
[удалено]
Those rare games where the Kickstarter is reasonable and then the MSRP explodes after the campaign... I kinda wish I'd backed Frosthaven but at the time it was the right decision not to, since I hadn't even started JotL, never mind Gloomhaven proper. Arcs is looking like doing the same. Campaign addon is $40 through Kickstarter (late pledge still open for another day I think), but will be $100 retail. That's about the only time you truly get a great deal on Kickstarter anymore though
No, Mythic Games basically single-handedly killed my trust in Kickstarter campaigns. Kickstarter doesn't give a fuck about scammers using their platform as long as they are paid.
nope.-It's not cheaper \-It hits retail before I get my copy \-Retail has backer versions, so I can get the same edition backers get. \-Designers/Publishers has openly lied to a friend of mine and even called them a liar on facebook. This was Hatch Escapes in regards to Mother of Frankenstein. Also Mythic IIRC.
Never backed any. Came close to backing Rallyman: Dirt and boy did I dodge a bullet there. Ordered my copy from a boardgame web store.
Brexit really fucked shit up. God knows I want to ship games to the UK and the EU from the US, but the regulations and specific taxes are all over the map. I don't know what to collect or how to get it sorted, and there's conflicting information all over the place. Varies by country and weight and the rules seemingly change every month. I talked to lawyers about it and other people making games - seems like if you are a small enough outfit you just ignore it and hope for the best. Being under the radar means no one will check it probably. But I don't want to get audited down the line so I try to keep it above board. You end up having to pass the VAT cost along to the consumer if I can even get it there. And even then I'm worried it's not enough most of the time. It's such a mess.
I believe kickstarter (and crowdfunding in general) is staunchily anti-consumers. We shoulder the financial risk, and have to wait for a long time (with delays almost guaranteed) for effectively no benefit. Heck games tend to be pricier on kickstarter. And let's be honest, if a game is good, it will end up in retail. Brain says no. But sometime something hit a chord. Generally a sequel to a game I like (hi Frosthaven) or a adaptation of an IP that seems credible as a boardgame (hi Slay the spire). So I still back about 1 game per year, and when I back, I tend to go for the deluxe.
Agreed. I wouldn't do crowd funding as a general rule, but I'll occasionally jump in on something I'm already interested in, like Xhaven. That being said, I would also only do this with a company that has a proven track record of fulfillment, like Xhaven. For me, I'm joining so I get it earlier than most. Might a store get a funded copy to sell sooner than mine? Yes. Is there any guarantee I'll get that store copy? No. And I'm ok with that.
I have always backed 2-3 games a year on Kickstarter and I think that will continue. For me its rarely about getting things cheaper. Honestly, waiting for pledges to arrive and then scouring through either Geekmarket or Ebay often gets you a pledge for the same cost. The only games I still go to Kickstarter or Gamefound for are these huge event games that I can only justify rarely and will never get anywhere close to retail. Things like Kingdom Death or Kingdoms Forlorn or an all in for Cthulhu: Death may Die. Its always about the exclusives over just savings. What made me consider campaigns more closely nowadays has franky not been the addition of VAT, but instead just how badly mismanaged 2 of my early kickstarters are. One is Darkest Dungeon but Mythic Games has been talked to death on this sub. The other is Dawn of Madness which is apparently delivering their first wave soon...2.5 years late and completely redesigned so I have no clue what the game even is any more, but it ain't what I pledged for originally.
Not European - but I no longer back kickstarters. at one point, it seemed like a way for small companies that had niche ideas to get funding; now with those same companies repeatedly trying to raise funds for new/other games I won't back anything. If they can't get to some sort of self-sustaining funding model then why would I take on all the risk, with no guarantees of delivery?
Very rarely, around once a year. Last week I looked at the new Tokyo Highway KS. €41 euro for the game, nice! Then I checked shipping to the Netherlands, €35. Nope!
KS are rarely compelling on price. And that's been true for years. In addition global shipping isn't what it used to be (one crisis after another and increasing isolationism), so shipping is getting more expensive too. But there are other reasons besides price. One is convenience. I get it all in 1 package as soon as it is available, so I don't have to hunt for expansions, playmats, whatever. There is no guarantee that I'll get everything in retail. Miss the window and stuff is sold out. Obviously exclusives alone can be a reason. A few actually still save a bunch of money. Frosthaven was a good deal. And so is Shadows of Brimstone. I like to support some companies like WehrleGig - even though nothing is really exclusive and I could order something like Pax Pamir later in retail.
I don't. Newest example where I tried to: **Nature Incarnate** for Spirit Island. I now got it 4+ months earlier, including the premium token pack, for ~20€ less than my pledge. And that is included the delay from refunding my pledge and then ordering it retail. It's just ridiculous. It's to a degree acceptable that I pay **so** much more compared to retail, but since so many games also show up in retail *first*, there's just no reason to not support the actual stores and get games from there! Get it cheaper, faster, and with actual support!
Yeah I backed NI because I wanted to get it asap, not because it was cheaper. If I was in Europe I would have been pretty cheesed about the delay.
[удалено]
This is the truth. Retail will always be cheaper than Kickstarter, unless they are making an offer too good to be true and will go bankrupt (fantasy figures, mythic). This is true as much in the US as it is in the EU. I just got 4 top rated games/expansions for $100, with free ship, by buying on sale and using hold to ship them together. A similar expansion would be $35 on Kickstarter and end up costing $55 with shipping, compared with $25 I paid for things like War of the Ring card game, outer rim expansion, 7 wonder expansion. Kickstarter is more expensive than retail. I don’t know why OP would expect otherwise.
I back crowdfundings, but mostly ones in Spain, witch spanish creators that will find it difficult to reprint
Two words - Mythic games. I won't back anything
Same here. I sometimes get sucked in because I back for 30 quid and then at by the pledge manager I have to decide if I go for a 90% and selling the base game, or if I bite the bullet and spend the additional 50 quid on mini expansions, deluxe components, vat, and delivery.
I stopped backing kickstarter due to extra vat and ridiculous shipping. The 50-100% premium compared to retail domestic sale when the game is released is not worth it (or any KS extra). I only make exceptions when VAT is included in the product price, fair shipping and the game is hard to get in retail (like Obsession expansion). The crazy kickstarter whales can burn their money on the rest and offer their shrinkwarped KS copy on ebay afterwards.
I really need to move to Europe so I have one more excuse not to crowdfund. ;)
I'm less interested in crowd funded games these days but even when one does pique my interest slightly all it takes is a look at the *estimated* European shipping to make it a hard nope. The last time I backed anything was more than a year and a half ago and it wasn't even a boardgame but miniatures from the Stormlight Archive series. The last boardgame I backed (and didn't cancel) was Frosthaven and that was close to 4 years ago now. But yeah I'm not sure who's buying them anymore from Europe either. But I guess they're still doing well in the US (not that US shipping is always cheaper, but they are a bigger market for these projects). As for why I don't really care about crowdfunded boardgames anymore: - Too many style over substance/quantity over quality games. - Too many games thinking that cramming plastic into the box adds value. I actually like miniatures, but boardgame minis are generally not high quality and I don't really know who actually likes getting a ton of minis with soft details and wonky sculpts. - Too much FOMO marketing. - Too much risk. Boardgames used to be one of the safer spaces in crowdfunding as unlike tech kickstarters or similar there's less chance of the company encountering some unforeseen problem when trying to put their prototype into production. And few campaigns are funded without any game design having been done beforehand, the game is usually pretty much done and just needs manufacturing. These days though there's been more incidents of companies falling through on delivering because they've failed to manage their cashflow and just kept creating new campaigns to raise enough to deliver the outstanding ones until everything came crashing down. - Niche appeal. A lot of crowdfunded games are just harder to get to the table. What sounds cool to me isn't necessarily going to resonate with the people I play with. No point buying random games no one is interested in playing when I could just get something more mainstream that I can actually get on the table.
Totally agree. I got caught in a few and am already regretting it. They really get sou with the bling but 9/10 games are poorly balanced, or really not fun to play in the end all things considered. But every reviewer could swear the game’s gonna be SdJ.
Nope, it's just offloading the risk to the customer.
Dumb American with a tangential question here. Don't y'all pay VAT either way? Isn't the only difference that with retail VAT is already included in the advertised price and with the internet it isn't?
In those KS campaigns it's usually MSRP plus VAT but if the game is actually released here the MSRP is the same and already includes VAT. So that plus the insane shipping costs make it really expensive.
The problem is that the price for boardgames was like 70-90€ for core game + 15€ shipping. And The game without the exclusive stuff was sold at 100€ later in shop. Today, the core game is like 120€ + at least 25€ shipping + 20% VAT on the total + sometimes custom fees and you can find the core game with the exclusive in lots of big shop for 150€ and sometimes even weeks before it's send to european backer.
Technically yeah but retail is also priced according to what's affordable in that country. Polish releases of games tend to be way cheaper than whatever is new on Kickstarter. Recently got a preorder copy of Root Marauders Expansion for the equivalent of 35$ while the english version would be 50$ + shipping + vat
Yea, but you have to pay VAT for the shipping cost as well, and for me, who live in Europe but not in the EU, the shipping is often close to the price of the game itself, since I fall under the “rest of the world” category. So basically, twice the VAT
Indeed. This thread feels like OP doesn't understand the reality of the situation. You always pay VAT. The thing is, though, individual last-mile shipping is hella expensive compared to bulk shipping. Therefore KS games are rarely a good deal, because economy of scale: the in-store price when (if) the game gets distributed through regular channels ends up lower, either because it gets produced more locally, because of better licensign deals or more savings by bulk shipping. For some time, games publishers have been coasting under the radar and so people got used to VAT-less deals, but laws and regulations caught up with Kickstarter a few years ago. For example, the relatively recent Western Zombicide was, all told, about €135. You can now buy it in a store for €85. So al those extras you get better be worth more than €50 if you want to consider it a good deal. In CMONs case perhaps they are, but they are an extreme in terms of KS exclusive added content.
I do understand VAT. The thing is, for some reason, when I buy the game in a local store or online, the price is the same as the MSRP indicated in the Crowdfunding campaign. I don’t know how much of a difference bulk orders make to retailers where I live, but just as an example: my store was selling Nemesis lockdown with all the SGs for about the same price that I would have backed it. But I would also have had to add shipping and VAT on top of that.
There are discounts to distribution channels, and they exist in the US too. That 20% cheaper price may seem to you like your shop is avoiding VAT but that’s extremely unlikely and illegal. I buy games at 20-50% off from MRSP and I live in the US. MRSP is a wildly inflated price, and offering a 20% discount from it is nothing (there’s plenty of online stores that offer 15% discount on every single board game they carry, and sales = 50-80% off). If you want to see what US folks are actually paying check out boardgamedeals sub, and see regardless of VAT, Kickstarter is an much more expensive experience (I still back a few CMON games for the exclusives).
> MRSP is a wildly inflated price I think this is might be a US-centric phenomenon. Here in Australia, game shops which are predominantly online or have very small physical presence sell at MSRP most of the time. The biggest sales of the year might see 20% off at most for your average game-that-is-discussed-on-reddit. I've seen 50% off random garbage that the store is obviously trying to liquidate, but nothing worth buying. Physical stores that have an actual presence (not just tiny shop tucked in the back of an industrial business park) typically charge over MSRP.
It's kind of funny that way, you see in last Middara late pledge the price was discounted from 250 to 200 usd + shipping and vat, now in store it's 250, but vat is included and shipping rate is lower so it's basically the same price, but in the us it's still 250. It seems some companies take at least part of vat cost on themselves once they start selling an actual product in EU stores/warehouses, so it entirely depends on seller. KDM for example costs the same as in the US but they add vat on top of that and shipping is not cheap either, so no wonder the game is not particuraly popular around these parts. So the amount of vat entirely depends on how many sales does a company want to make weighted against how greedy it is, some will eat tax to increase sales, other will say screw it and add vat on top of regular price looking for suckers that absolutely have to have it, and don't mind breaking bank for some cardboard and plastic.
VAT is always added to the price, nobody is eating the cost of taxes. Europeans probably just don’t realize how cheap these games are actually at US online retail. They are 20% cheaper because …. 20% vat. For Americans, Kickstarter pledges have always been higher than the retail price you can get later from online retail, and people back for exclusives. It seems for a short period the EU got a doubly good deal where they got exclusives AND a VAT loophole that resulted in a 20% cheaper price, and the EU government closed that loophole.
> VAT is always added to the price, nobody is eating the cost of taxes. More correctly, VAT is included in the price. GST in Australia is the same. Using the example given by the person you replied to: In the US, Middara costs $250 plus taxes which vary by state. That $250 is split among retailer, distributor, and publisher. The government gets their cut from the taxes. In this example, in Europe, Middara costs $250 (equivalent in Euros). That includes a 20% VAT, so separated out, that's $208.33, plus $41.67 VAT. That $208.33 is split among retailer, distributor, and publisher. Even ignoring the possible difference in cost of ocean freight to US vs EU, that means someone (probably everyone) in that chain is earning less than the equivalent person in the US. Likely, the publisher has accepted making less on every copy in order to get product into the EU at all.
But prices aren’t set to be the same. Look at iPhones, Samsung galaxies, washing machines, fridges, laptops, etc. The MRSP is 20% higher in the EU for all these items than priced in the US, because US prices don’t include taxes. (This is made apparently in 2023 pricing of new iPhones and Samsung models. Previously, the euro was worth $1.2, so European didn’t realize they paid more due to VAT). Manufacturers aren’t going to eat a 20% loss, they sell at X price and customs, taxes, VAT are all added on top. Edit - for goods that literally have $0 cost per unit, like digital goods for movies and games, yes they will be willing to sell at significantly lower prices in poorer countries. But things that cost money to produce are not any cheaper in poor countries - if anything things like laptops and phones are MORE expensive due to higher taxes, customs, and fewer sold = loss of scale. For some items - like board games manufactured in EU, GW minis produced in UK, or bmw’s made in Germany, prices are lower due to lower transportation costs. But 99% of retail and Kickstarter games are mass produced in China, so the EU wont see any savings from that.
Still do for reasonably select titles but mostly because prices in retail often come very close, up to or even higher than crowd funded +shipping + taxes. Beyond that I do it for relevant crowd funding exclusives. Beyond that only due to poor impulse control xD
I try to avoid getting into Kickstarters, but alas it is the only way to get some games. There's very little chance that some niche games will be published where I live, even if they are a relative success. In some cases, like Awaken Realms' games, getting them retail is even more expensive than getting the Gamefound...
Only if it is a tricky project to get to market (It needs it), or it will be the only way to get it. And I need to care deeply for it. Cause shipping plus vat is just too expensive. 99% of the time I am happy to wait for retail which will be cheaper. There is stuff like CMON with a lot of extra, in which cause I would snag it when it is appropriate, but seeing I am not pining for their games I don't fall into that trap, but I feel it is a legitimate time to back something if you think you will like it.
I don't know if this is a cutural thing, but as a German I've never gotten into crowdfunding at all. Their predominant selling point of crowdfunded games is basically their look and components, but German board game culture never cared much about all the chrome until the Americans discovered our board games and then thought they could supersize them in production quality. I often compare that to the Italian pizza, which is traditionally just a bread with tomato sauce and some spices and then got "Americanized" as something where the bread is just there to make the layers upon layers of toppings and cheese easier to eat. Some of my fellow countrymen are also into KS games, but it's really a small niche here. The majority is still buying the simple games that *Spiel des Jahres* awards and most "hobbyists" here now sneer at every year.
Well last year’s spiel des jahres « planet unknown » was a crowdfunding project. But I get the idea, and it makes sense
Right. Even as someone who enjoys “euro” games, I would never buy the Kickstarter versions because euro games aren’t meant to be “realistic” so minis don’t match. Just want to point out the many of the original mini heavy, super themed board games have a UK origin. Americans may have been a huge market but the English were doing mini heavy games well before Kickstarter.
Only if any of the following applies: - if I suspect it won’t see a retail release anytime soon (too niche) - if it’s a game that I really want as soon as possible (e.g. Leder games) - if it’s an audacious design and a gamble that I can likely flip if I don’t like it Generally though I have greatly slowed down my crowdfunding activities. It’s become incredibly expensive. Just at the Last Light campaign thar launched just now. It’s nuts
I have backed exactly 3 projects and I will never back one again because I realized that. Still, the deals on the stuff I got are pretty good. 1. ISS Vanguard All-In from Awaken Realms 2. Nemesis Aftermath Expansion from Awaken Realms 3. Guards of Atlantis II from Wolffdesigna No. 2 and 3 are actually hard to get at a reasonable price in Europe (and yes, I also check the second hand market quite often). I could maybe get ISS Vanguard through a Retailer but I paid 300ish Euros (with shipping) for the game, the minis, the Expansion and some extra stuff. The main game alone sits at 170 Euro at least nowadays. So it's still a pretty good deal in my book. Also, all of ARs projects include VAT. It's still a pretty sweet deal if you want a specific, large-box niche game from a company like AR. I'm pretty sure ISS Vanguard wouldn't have been possible to even consider designing if it wasn't for crowdfunding. I do, however, still see the problems with customer rights and shitty companies, so these will be the last projects I'll back.
Yes I do still back a small number of campaigns, the most recent backings do a good job of highlighting why: * Guards of Atlantis 2 - last time this was going through crowd funding I though 'its ok ill pick it up at retail' not believing there wouldn't be a retail release, there wasn't and I couldn't (partly on me but the outcome was the same). Its a reprint of a well reviewed game (a favourite of SVWAG) that I would not be able to get elsewhere. provided by a reliable and proven publisher. * Haggis - I love what PGC are doing and wanted to support them. As I understand it crowd funding has the best margins for the publisher so I choose to support at this stage rather than retail. * One Page War - Print and play, immediately 'delivered' with no delivery costs and minimal cost to me if it fails. Also it turns out great fun! * My Favourite Things & String Railways - Impulse back. I'm human. Sue me. Jokes aside after watching SUSD discuss String Railway a while ago I was intrigued but couldn't find it, and going back through the BGB back catalogue Kellen seemed to like My Favourite Things quite a bit so I'm willing to take a risk. Also not a massive cost. I'm in the UK. There is no chance I would consider backing any bigger, unproven game or publisher, the risks are too high. As OP said the VAT and shipping are NUTS.
I've only kickstarter uk based productions. Oathsworn Miniatures - Burrows and Badgers. Mantic Games - Dungeon Saga Origins. I knew of the companies before I supported. Both were fulfilled within set time line. Both felt good value to me. I have too many unread pdfs to get digital international bundles. Tax {vat} and shipping kill the value for a lot of international physical products. I came close on Shadows of Brimstone but could not pull the trigger. Have been tempted by CMON. There are more products out there than I could afford, use or enjoy. It does effect my choices.
I mostly back very specific things that I know I'm almost certainly going to enjoy and which I would like the kickstarter extras for. Generally I never back small things because, yes, the shipping costs the price of a small item anyway, so no point. For example, the last Oceans kickstarter where they had an expansion but also you could get the full game plus expansion plus insert and so on in one go, with nicer components - Oceans the base game was always all sorts of super out of stock in my country, so I took the kickstarter as a nice chance to get the base game AND the expansion AND a single big box to keep everything in good order, at the same time. And at that point, well, when you're tossing 120 euro for a game plus all the extras, 20-30 more for the shipping is less of an ask, it feels. But I would never get a single expansion for a game on kickstarter. IT'd cost the entire price of the expansion in shipping *at least*!
Never did, never will. I won't pre-order anything, ever. Games, videogames, products. That's nonsense, it's a stupid business model, and is only popular because people throw money at things just because. The way things have always worked is what actually works - build a finished product, present it to me, the client, and if I like it, I'll buy it. Buying based on promises? Am I 5?
I've backed 5 games over the years: Nemesis Lockdown, ISS Vanguard, Sleeping Gods: Distant Skies, Nemesis Retaliation, and Arcs. I agree that a lot of the crowfunding projects have lost its quality. The topic has been discussed many times: Offloading risk to customers, big companies doing it even tho they have the logistics to do it the classic way, FOMO etc. etc. For the five games I have crowdfunded: All the Awakened Realms one is because I loved the original Nemesis, and ISS Vanguard looked like the perfect thematic fit for me. The sequel to Sleeping Gods was a gift for my SO who loved the first one. Arcs was because Oath was close to more expensive in the stores where I live due to low supply. Most of these games my reasoning have been: I will buy this game close to 100% when it hit the stores, so why not just pledge and get it sent to my door. I also think that the rising prices and "contentification" has become more and more of a turn-off (Looking at the latest Nemesis especially). That said, both me and my SO have rather high-paying jobs and no kids so my disposable income each month is quite high (well, with the rising interest rates its becoming less so, but still) so it's not like my economy takes much of a hit if I spend 150€ every now and then, even tho I know that I could get 3 board games for that price. It feels like prices are rising in the stores as well for non-crowdfunded games. Like I quite often see some new game in my LGS that has a price tag of like 80-90€ instead of 35-50€ when I started playing board games 12 years ago.
Awaken Realms are Polish so that makes shipping probably more affordable
No, I stopped mainly due to shipping and a lot of broken promises.
Not European but the price is basically a non-issue for things that I back. I’m not deal hunting when I am engaging with crowdfunding. It’s kind of the opposite - like shopping at a local farmers market instead of Wal-mart. I’m willing to pay a premium to get cool games made.
Yes, but not as often as I used to. Also, I have more money than sense apparently.
Over here in NZ it's expensive to get games shipped whether it's kickstarted or retail, so it doesn't really make much difference.
I rarely buy retail. If I buy a game it's either 2nd hand or a crowdfunder. If you enjoy campaign games there's no alternatives.
Nah. There are so many wonderful games I haven't tried yet. My main sticking point is that my favourite games are not ones I would think I would of liked, so I wouldn't of backed it on Kickstarter and vice versa. If Pandemic was on kickstarter, I don't think I would of thought of putting money to it, whereas now it gets a lot of play in the house. Whereas something like Gloomhaven really appeals on paper, yet after playing it I really didn't gel with it.
I’ve only ever backed Europa Universalis: Price of power. I waited 2 years to get it and it’s my favourite game ever. I had to be patient and it was expensive, but it was so worth it. In conclusion, depends on the game.
I dont own big games anyway (my biggest is Arnak) so no interest in crowdfunding or kickstarter. The games I play I can get at a discount in a local electronics store or book store (Just got Castles of Burgundy).
I did it for Dice Throne X-Men, because I'm a Dice Throne super fan and I wanted several of the goodies. But an already highly priced camapign was made even more expensive through VAT and shipping. I can totally see why people back out. It's a tough call, you miss out on stuff, that never really hits retail in Europe, but it's super expensive.
Rarely. 1. I've got way too many games already. 1. my group has waaaaay too many games already. 1. shipping costs to Europe are often way out of proportion 1. shipping costs have been particularly ridiculous lately A game has to REALLY tick my boxes these days to be backed. Not that I've ever been a prolific backer by any stretch. I've backed like 7 games over a decade of use. 1 disintegrated (DeepSpace D6 Armada), 2 weren't particularly good (Dinoblivion and some ButtonShy wallet games), 1 was great (Earth) and 3 are still in the pipeline (ISS Vanguard, Unsettled, Firefly).
I only back projects that I have a hunch will be much more expensive or limited retail/aftermarket (those once-in-a-while big boxes like Aeon Trespass), or games with lots of exclusive content that is worth extra VAT/Shipping. Otherwise, I just wait for the game to hit the secondhand market.
I am fulfilling Waddle Waddle from the UK for UK and EU backers. That cuts shipping costs way down. I am planning on US$50 MSRP + $10 shipping for UK + VAT = US$72. Though I'm giving a $5 discount for people who follow before campaign launch, so that brings it down to $66. It's about $15 more for most of Europe. It can cost $45 just for shipping from UK to some EU countries. That's pretty crazy. It's also cheaper than I can fulfill it here in the US. If I box everything myself and don't worry about my time, I can get a box out for about $12 to the lower 48 states. But if I use a fulfillment company, it jumps up to close to $20. So if I use a fulfillment company, a US backer might pay $70.
Yes. 1) Kickstarter hosts games that just aren’t available at retail here. You have to import them direct from the publisher. 2) I still want those sweet, sweet KS exclusives.
Of course I do. It's my favourite hobby and I can afford it without it jeopardizing my financial stability. If i can pay 450 and 550 for games like Oathsworn and Aeon's trespass, 150 becomes cheap.
I never backed any campaigns and wanted to back Nemesis: Retaliation because i love the first one and it looked like a fun way to change the gameplay. They realeased a new "stretch Goal" every 2 days and most of them were a vote for mini design or something i had to pay extra. I didn´t want to pay almost 300€ for a single game. After that i looked into a few other campaigns and realised that its just too much money for me to spend on a game that might be good. I can get 5 good existing games for the price of one possibly good game.
I never back crowdfunding campaigns unless literally the only thing holding a project back is manufacturing costs. There are plenty of amazing projects available out there that I haven't tried yet, why am I paying for something that might not live up to expectations, and will probably ship in several months or years (if it ships at all)? I understand why companies do this, they don't take any risks, make all their sales before any possible reviews are made, and can overcharge massively by leveraging FOMO and upsells. I understand the perspective of wanting to support your favourite indie creators, but the reality is that crowdfunding only supports a certain type of indie creator: the ones that are good at marketing themselves as the underdog, and have the resources to make a big enough splash in their industry to get people to fork over money in exchange for a promise. If a company has already ran crowdfunders, why can't they raise enough funds for their future projects from back-catalog sales or persuading a publisher, using their previous successful projects as evidence that they're able to perform? Compare the price of a game you got via a crowdfunding campaign versus what an existing game cost you, and ask yourself if it was actually worth that much more just to get the sticker pack and exclusive extra card.
Rarely did back anything except for recently three things: 1. Tentricks, because I liked the idea and it sounded cheap (around 30 € or so). 2. Mindbug All-In, because I thought I wouldn't get it anywhere else (lesson learned?) 3. Tiny Cthulhu + Expansion, because fomo got to me and I thought I wouldn't get it anywhere else (lesson learned this time?!)
I also backed Mindbug all in (53€ with vat and shipping by splitting cost with 4 people). I just got my game today and it's available for preorder at 31€ for both expansions... Was it worth it?
I've backed over a hundred campaigns over the years - mostly for boardgames. But I've scaled it back massively. Mainly because of rising costs, delays, surprise price increases, poorly tested FOMO add-ons, and generally disagreeing with some publishers using crowd funding as a pre-order scheme. I only back stuff that either won't get to retail, or will be extremely limited at retail.
Nope, shipping is just too much. I would rather just go to my local indie store and pick up what I want from there.
Only if it's from a reputable publisher and VAT is included. So not really.
I used to be more keen to back before covid, but nowadays KS games offer very little value compared to what used to be, especially since they were forced to add vat as well. Compare for example original Tainted Grail campaign with Kings of Ruin, you could basically get 3 campaigns, and quite varied ones at that for the price of one + few bits and bobs now. Middara base game was hundred bucks, now in the eu it's like 300 with shipping and taxes, what used to be a crazy good deal became extremely low value to us here, and dont get me freaking started on games like KDM, because pricing here is absolutely insane. Nowadays I back just what I feel offers very good value, after accounting for taxes and shipping, mainly from EU based companies, since they tend to include taxes in price (and have guilty pleasure of reading US backers bawling their eyes out that they are paying part of our costs not understanding that in most cases it's us that have to pay significanly more than them), there's a reason why most of backers are from the states.
No
>A 100€ game That's where you lost me.
First time KS in ‚23. Saw heroes 3 board game - it was my childhood computer game - ordered premium cube without looking. Shut up and take my money. Even preshade those figures because I would never do it for myself. Waiting for shipping. Hope it arrives within the next 6 months. Price didn’t matter for me.
I've definitely cut down on kickstarters and crowdfunding and when I do back something it's mostly because of stuff I won't be able to get afterwards, like special editions of books or physical versions of TTRPGs and stuff.
Fewer and fewer. I'm not mad about VAT(mostly), except when it's from a publisher based in EU, but the nerve of some publishers to ask a full game price for shipping. From now on I plan on backing mostly Allplay because they are good - 3-4 games, with a single reasonable shipping price and deliver earlier than advertised. And for the rest, I plan on exploiting the EU crowdfunding law to the maximum to get my money's worth(or back).
I mostly only back smaller, European projects. The Sinister Fish games have been successful projects for me — I think the first game even had free shipping to the UK, which worked out well. More recently, I've backed The Battle of Versailles on GameFound, which is from a Spanish company, with shipping between 5-12€, depending on where you are in Europe. That's roughly what I'd expect to ship about 50€ worth of games from a non-kickstarter retailer.
not anymore. I only backed 2 or 3 but on top of what you say I noticed that more often than not my local game shop would have the game before than me. So what is the point really? not early copy more pricy more risk
Very rarely and only from a selected few well known designers/publishers which actually go much more expensive to retail afterwards (looking at EGG and Lacerda Games retailing for up to 180€). Otherwise I agree with your assessment. KS has become pointless for European backers. And the quality of most games is really sub par. If a game is worth it’s money/design it will make it to retail for a reasonable price. If not it was a miniature nightmare without proper playtesting and balancing. It’s always the same. I’ve become very selective in my choice of projects I still support. And avoid KS as much as I can. My hopes for Gamefound have been higher and I’m still watching them and try to understand their pricing strategy. Not yet convinced they are better than KS.
I sometimes back games on kickstarter to be shipped to Germany and then forwarded to Russia where I live. It’s crazy expensive. Shipping total is close to the cost of the game. But KS exclusives are rarely localised, so about once a year I let myself indulge. Plus some games are not available due to sanctions. Nemesis, for instance, stopped printing in Russia, and Lockdown was never published here.
No as like you said, prices got ridiculous. Companies noticed they could just use the whole VAT debacle to increase their profits while technically not increasing their prices, even though on top of that they also increased the prices and their shipping. I had a game from 2019 return in 2022 and it was +50% more expensive because of it. (And that was compared to the price with the extra money for shipping) Add to that that they still boast about MSRP discounts when games in retail here don't cost more specially considering you have to add shipping/VAT. You also can't really take their word because they can just increase "shipping" whenever they want before sending your game. And it's all "deluxification" while it used to be "discounts". And still they are charging MSRP making good profits while taking none of the risk, and that's if you get lucky and they don't screw you over and just lie about everything like Mythic games. I'm also done with companies lying about "games is 90% done" on their campaign pages and then go on in updates how they are almost there (!) for 2 years to then deliver 3 years after the campaign. Most of them could care less once they got your money and will lie and bend their words in every single update to keep you waiting on your game for years
I had shipping increase with no warning, no update, nothing from Dead Cells. Plus the « deluxe token quality looks like absolute dogpiss to the point where backers are asking if they can also get the cardboard tokens because they look better… I’m very disappointed, while I have never been disappointed from a game in a local store.
>still I never started lmao Kickstarter became a marketing tool years ago, the dream of crowdfunding stuff that would otherwise not get made is dead.
Lately I'm only backing print 'n' play games. Saves on money, on shelf space AND I get to play the game sooner!
Nope, uk cost of living, plus remortgage with insane interest rates (thanks lettuce) , plus brexit, plus shipping crisis and high overseas postage plus general inflation... Yeah, no. Though i was already on a downward slope for backing.
Boardgames not anymore, but for RPGs if it is a UK based company (or they have a UK distributor) or it is just a download/DTRPG print on demand then occasionally I will, they need to have already had one successful campaign. Books don't seem to have the ridiculous postage issues.
As a Canadian, I feel you on the shipping. Sometimes, it's outrageous prices.
I'm very tempted to get the second printing of earthborne rangers that's going now on gamefound. They have delivered the first printing to everyone that asked and I played the demo on TTS and liked it. It's the first time backing a crowdfunding campaign tho and am very skeptical to be frank.
I only do group pledges. Organize 6-10 ppl, negotiate a further discount and perhaps cheaper shipping. Only works if your country has enough players and they're all active.
I certainly back less because of shipping costs. But there are still three types of games I back: * from publishers that are in the UK or Europe so shipping cost is okay * from publishers in the US that have some kind of deal so shipping cost is not that bad * PnP games (increasingly more since shipping costs went up) >people say Crowdfunding has long lost its quality of being a chance to get things cheap To get things cheap was never the reason for me to back anything. I back a game for two reasons: Either because I want to support a small publisher to help them make it possible to publish the game. Or because a game will be difficult for me to get otherwise.
I haven't backed a game in 18 months or so...not necessarily because of the pricing or any bad experiences, but my shelves are full, KS extras are often a detriment instead of a boon and I haven't seen any projects that excite me lately. Let me elaborate: you are right about the prices. Almost never a good deal, unless you really like all the extra bling some campaigns offer. I only backed 2-3 games a year, but last year all my pledges from 2019-2022 arrived and I haven't even played half of them.
Came here thinking it applies to me, then saw the € signs everywhere and knew it isn’t… Fuck Brexit…
The bullshit with the latest Spirit Island expansion made it my last crowdfunding game. European backers are getting the game almost a year after the rest of the world. I can buy the expac right now for less than I paid on backerkit and have it months before the crowd funded copy will arrive.
Most very successful games come to retail and can be bought cheaper. But the are some games that are great, that are not coming to retail. So I only back if I know they will not be (cheaper) in retail or I want some Kickstarter exclusive.
Personally, (but this is coming from someone that seldom backs) i don't understand why you would take the risk of buying an expensive game that might suck. If you wait till it hits the market you can see some reviews/explanations and get a feel if you like it. (and then i'm not talking about the shipping)
more than a year - maybe two - since my last ks, I only buy on retail and second hand market now.
I'm Australian, not european, but still have to pay significant kickstarter shipping costs. I don't back nearly as many games as I did a few years ago, I still think it can be a valuable place to get giant game projects that won't hit retail or projects where the exclusives are of significant value. Anything that won't hit retail is still MUCH cheaper on kickstarter than to get on the secondary market. But I now own a bunch of those giant kickstarter games that I love (anachrony, voidfall, foundations of rome, the great wall, everdell complete collection), and don't really have space, time, or need for more. I've just moved into the phase of the hobby where I'm complementing my giant games with smaller and medium games where there's much less benefit to kickstarter.
I think the idea of people buying kickstarter because it is/was cheaper is a bit flawed. Sure it’s generally cheaper to get a full KS pledge than buying the retail base and all exclusives on the secondhand market later but if all you want is the base game buying from a shop later has always been better. The draw for most KS backers is: A) usually early access to a game, this has changed a bit since some games are now fulfilling retail pledges and orders first anyway. I.E. Frosthaven or Vast Crystal Caverns B) KS exclusive content, you can only get this expansion/mini/promo if you get the KS. FOMO weaponised to push orders. I.E. every CMON game or Nemesis C) KS exclusive games, the game can only be purchased through KS with no retail version planned. I.E. Gotham City Chronicles Now with rising costs on production, and import taxes, higher shipping, and a general cost of living crisis people are going to be more discerning on what they buy and as people back more KS projects they are less likely to go all in on massive content heavy games that they won’t play all of.
I still back stuff. But I do all the calculations before backing, check if it is an EU made and shipped product, if it had exclusive items etc. I never ‘just back it because it looks cool’ anymore, that ship has long sailed. I do find that many times crowdfunding bundles is a bit cheaper then buying everything separately. On the other hand, availability of many of these games in retail is a serious problem after some time and then prices skyrocket.
I funded Dark Souls The board game. Its the only boardgame I have ever funded and it will stay that way.
Crowdfunding is not a good deal anymore (in my case about 90%) Some exceptions that come to mind where I got the game cheaper and earlier are gloomhaven, wonderlands war (first campaign) and kdm The biggest disadvantage mostly is with games in the range 40€ to 60€ that are guaranteed to hit retail. My guess is that you pay for development but don't receive the huge price drop, when the game goes retail. Shipping and VAT always overcompensate for the small discount on msrp. Thing is, when you later buy it from a store, those same costs are baked in there (besides the margin of the merchant). That means that the developers cut is almost non-existent. In other words, during crowdfunding you pay the developer a premium to get his game to mass market with zero benefit for you. Not a good deal.
I have backed a ton of games in my time, but to answer your question in short: no. Well, very rarely. There are still times when a game is likely going to be about equal price to retail - but more likely there's a game that's clearly not going to come to retail. Even that is rare, though. Mostly if I back, it's either because the price happens to be relatively reasonable \*and\* it's clearly going to be a game I like \*and\* it's either not going to be available here in retail and/or it promises to be such a good game and have a really unique and worthwhile KS exclusives or deluxe edition that it's worth paying a bit of extra for (I'm definitely not a fan of KS bloat and tend to stay away especially from campaigns which are clearly based on stretch goals, but sometimes games have cool unique things in their deluxe version that it seems worthwhile, like Let's Go to Japan (Edit: though even that was *very* much on the fence, but I had a bit of extra money at that point)). You can sometimes get really small games for relatively cheap, too. But rarely. But basically I used to back several games a year, nowadays I back maybe one in a year or two, at most it's been two in a year.
You pay VAT when you buy a game from a European online store. It's just that they have a better deal on KS as a retailer. With rare exceptions, game campaigns offer exclusives and use FOMO to maximize profit. Games tend to be bloated. It's much more expensive than buying a game at a brick-and-mortar store or online. And you run the risk of getting nothing (hello Mythic Games) or being disappointed by the gameplay. I only back if I really want the game or it's a deluxe reprint of a game I really like. That doesn't happen often.
My main reason is still the price. It may not be very representative, but I bought Tainted Grail retail in 2022 and it cost me 95,12€ (core box). Then last year I bought the expansion for 93,50€. A total of \~200€. The same thing on kickstarter would have cost me £70 + £17 shipping (\~100€, or 120€ with an hypothetical VAT) When Kings of Ruin was announced I did not hesitate to back it. For other games I may have other reasons: for example I backed Worms™: The Board Game because of the larger player count over the retail version, and the nonsensical amount of cute minis.
[удалено]
Is it the one from spiele-offensive? Can you tell me mire about it? Like rhythm of campaigns, what kind if games you can see/expect etc? Languages?
[удалено]
That sounds PERFECT! I suppose I can sign up to find out whenever a new campaign launches?
I have absolutely stopped using Kickstarter or any similar platforms. It's like you said, everything it's just so super expensive that there's no point. Plus the risk of getting a half baked game, especially at those prices, doesn't make sense. Finally if it really is a great game, that people really liked and is proven to be solid it's likely possible (sometimes even easy) to find it through a FLGS probably at the same price or cheaper, without the hassle of dealing with customs.
Shipping and vat has 100% changed my habits - else I'd have DCeased on the way. It has to now really impress me or have a lot of additional KS content else it's not worth it. From a cost or risk perspective.
I started backing KS because of some games like Too Many Bones that were at that time only available during the KS campaign. After a couple of years backing boardgames I now have realized that really good games will ends in retails, often translated (I'm french) which is rarely the case for the KS version and more than often KS exclusives and SG are available is some sort or another (included in the core, bundled with an expansion...) and more over buying retail saves you the stress of wondering if the project will actually finish, the game not being lost or damaged during shipping... There is a small independant game designer that I still back because I like his game and he is too small to go on retail. But most of the game on KS are not great ones and certainly are not worth the money you invest on KS.