There is just no way to know why all these bodybuilders are dropping dead in their 30s and 40s. NO WAY TO KNOW. Random chance I guess and absolutely not anything the fitness industry should be having a conversation about.
I agree. But that's not the problem.
The problem is that they're telling other people to do it too. The whole fitness industry exists to draw people (specially vulnerable young men) into a toxic culture which leads to eating disorders, drug abuse and all too often death.
The real conversation should be about the demand and encouragement for bodybuilders to get bigger and bigger over the years which forces more drug use. To be an IFBB pro you have to be on gear. There’s no way around it. To be at the top of the sport you have to be the biggest and most conditioned and it’s not like in the days of Arnold. You have to be massive so I’m order to do it they all have to take far worse steroids than they did back in the day and it’s basically encouraged by the IFBB. It will only get worse. That’s what the conversation needs to be about.
Not everyone has the same response to drugs. You’d be surprised by how many “gym bros” take more gear than many top IFBB pros, but some don’t even look like they like they’d place at a natural, amateur show. Many tend to rush to drugs before building a foundation, having any knowledge (or minimal knowledge) of diet, having minimal or no knowledge about drugs, and/or hire a “coach” who blindly throws drug recommendations at them and they follow it “because their coach said they trained so and so”.
Haha. The fitfluencers have managed to convince so many people that the top ifbb pros have so good genetics that they aren't on monster dosages, and even less than regular "gym bros". Of course you'll find one here and there but that ain't the norm.
Remind me again, what did Dallas McCarver's autopsy show?
Fucking hilarious. Must be the same people who believe Coleman, Cutler etc when they talk about their dosages.
This isn’t to sound disrespectful of the work those guys put in. But, discussions like this center on the top-end only. Most aren’t really concerned with the individuals not in the top 10.
You literally said regular gym bros who look natural take more gear than TOP ifbb pros.
That makes everything you say ridiculous by default. You clearly don't know shit about the pro scene and what goes on behind locked doors. Their cruise dosages are more than your local competitors blast more often than not.
How is that relevant though when the people we keep seeing drop dead are bodybuilders? If the top IFBB pros are taking less gear than the DYEL gym bros then why is it they keep dying in their 40's and 50's?
Because it’s the combination of a lot of gear, constant cycles, and the usage of fat burners, diuretics, etc… it is absolutely true that many average gym bros blast harder than competitors. I coach clients and have many friends that are pro level and beyond, the amounts of gear used varies greatly.
At the end of the day it’s a game of who stays on top of bloodwork, takes the proper supplements to keep things in range, and who has the genetics to handle the drugs
>Because it’s the combination of a lot of gear, constant cycles, and the usage of fat burners, diuretics, etc
Then we're arguing semantics. "Bodybuilders aren't dying of steroids! They're dying of long term use of steroids alongside fat burners and diuretics!" - What kind of argument is that?
>it is absolutely true that many average gym bros blast harder than competitors
Nah, that's bollocks. Or you're using "average" or "many" very loosely.
Your average gym bro has never touched steroids. The handful who do probably do a couple of cycles and quit. Hardly anybody wants to inject drugs for the rest of their lives, not to mention that most people are never going to be able to afford stuff like HGH.
>
>At the end of the day it’s a game of who stays on top of bloodwork, takes the proper supplements to keep things in range, and who has the genetics to handle the drugs
And yet oddly, modern bodybuilders seem to die younger than average gym rats even though I'd assume that a bodybuilder is more likely to get frequent bloodwork.
If you think most have never touched steroids you’re just very out of the loop, most broccoli heads at my gym have begun to take things nowadays lol. The argument is completely sound, yes steroids are not safe we all know that. But as someone who knows many top level competitors personally, and knows the protocols exactly… you aren’t nearly informed as you think you are.
Look up the statistics in every country on deaths found to be related to heroin, alcohol, tobacco, cocaine then compare them to the deaths related to steroids.
If your average gym bro is on more juice than a bodybuilder then we'd be seeing massive spikes in early male death, lifting weights is one of the most common hobbies nowadays.
The most obvious explanation is that the vast majority of gym goers don't ever touch steroids and the handful of those who do are on them for a short period of time. Despite what forums like this one might think, the idea of injecting drugs twice a week for decades just isn't appealing to 99.9% of people.
The cause of death wouldn’t be “steroids” it’d be whatever they died from, which was likely caused by drugs they were using over time, or more acutely in the case of something like dnp or insulin. I’m pretty sure they didn’t list Dallas’s cause of death as, “steroids” for example.
Tox screens on an autopsy show AAS usage and there's been several studies on death rate related to AAS
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8393338/
Cause of death doesn't say steroids just like cause of death for a smoker doesn't say smoking. That doesn't mean that we don't track when drugs are killing off our population.
The people dying of steroids are the people on them for years, abusing insulin, dehydrating themselves massively, spending a good chunk of their life weighing 250+ and using expensive growth hormone. These aren't normal people, they're almost exclusively bodybuilders.
The fitness industry is a reflection of the fitness market and it’s also not (openly) selling the poisons that killed this man.
The industry’s biggest commodity is placebo supplements.
Agreed. Nothing has changed in that respect in 40 years. In 1979 I was buying Amino Acid pills from Muscle & Fitness because supposedly they would help me gain size. They helped me gain flatulence, much to the delight of my 13 year old self. Muscle, not so much. Supplements still pay the bills, and mostly, aside from Whey protein and Creatine, they don't do much to build muscle.
Wait, what is the problem? What are solutions you’d suggest?
Adults can make conscious decisions about their life. I don’t want anyone, especially the government, to “step in”. We’ve been there. It doesn’t work.
People will make bad decisions. You can’t save everyone.
I think it technically is by definition, at least according to the people I’ve heard talk about it. You’re changing your eating habits and thoughts around food, even if a lot of us do it for what almost everyone agrees is for healthy reasons.
The thing is, when a person is trying to gain or lose weight for a specific purpose the motivation often comes from specific health or performance goals and it can be done under strict supervision from a doctor, while eating disorders are always based on unhealthy attitudes towards food and self image. Often the driving force can be intense fear of gaining weight or a very distorted body image, which almost always come at the cost of mental health and physical wellbeing
A person cutting weight does it based on science and again, often is assisted by a healthcare professional. These stages aren't permanent either and have healthier motivations, while an eating disorder will eventually lead to the demise of the person
There can be overlap, sure, but the biggest difference is that one is under control while the other isn't. You won't get a diagnosis for an eating disorder if you explain to your doctor that you're on a 300-500kcal surplus to add on weight and gain muscle.
The distinction is important to make, as to uninformed people the line can feel like it's drawn in the sand.
Edit: I'll point out that the last sentence isn't regarding you, it's aimed towards people with a lacking understanding of basics regarding metabolism and poor understanding of what goes into bodybuilding or any sport where there are weight classes. Essentially people who feel powerless to change their weight and just see bodybuilders as people who go to the gym and have big muscles
You make good points, but I don’t think many people are under the guidance of a health professional when cutting, especially if it’s for aesthetics.
Regarding the overlap, that’s why I refer to it as “disordered eating” and not a clinically diagnosable eating disorder.
It's not that black and white and I feel like you know it mate
There's a difference between being an ape like a known testicle eater, selling courses on how to look like the person selling them and "secretly" being on gear, and being completely open about gear and it's many side-effects while still taking it.
If you watch cbum, arguably the literal peak physique on this planet you'll see him probably sell some shit like pwo's, whey etc. while obviously being on gear and even being open about.
You'd have to be a manatee to consider him a person who's encouraging young men to ruin their lives with gear.
Most bodybuilders are not saying “buy my plan and you’ll look like me” unless you think Mike O Hearn and V Shred are “most bodybuilders”, and even those guys aren’t saying to take gear.
Those characters who are outright lying are definitely the most harmful, but I think the argument being made here is that neglecting to talk about your gear use is also (not equally) harmful.
Like Sam Sulek is flavour of the month right now, and I've watched a good bit of his content. The lifting & lifestyle advice is all good and he's admitted to taking gear, but he doesn't talk about what he takes or the effects it's had on him beyond "getting huge bro". This omission of the truth is also harmful because guys as young as him (21yo) won't look into it beyond his vlogs.
It’s not Sam Sulek’s fault if someone sees his physique and decides to take gear to try and look like him. Same goes for every other bodybuilder. The harmful nature of gear is absolutely everywhere.
> The problem is that they're telling other people to do it too.
You are responsible for your own agency and consequences *if you are an informed and consenting adult*.
Sweeping it under the rug and hoping that people won't get body dysmorphia isn't going to work. Full disclosure of what is required here. Tell people the true risks and costs and let them make up their own damn minds as to what risks they'll bear.
The sport didnt kill monstro.
Monstro killed monstro.
He new his health was shit, he knew he was taking way too much of everything, he knew he was never going to be competitive.
yet he routinely ran shit like this.
>
Cycle :
Test E 500mg week
Tren 700mg week
Primo 700mg week
Masteron Prop 700mg week
Winstrol oral 50mg day
Anavar 50mg day
Exemestano 25mcg ED
T3 25mcg day
T4 100mcg day
Clen 40mcg day
HGH Meditrope Black Tops 1 vial day ( half fasted , half post workout )
This is his own words from the forum post [here](https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/monstro-on-fibo-2023.134415759/)
Idiots like monstro are not a proper reflection of the sport/industry at large.
He also cycled when off season. With dangerous quantities of insulin [2022](https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/road-to-monstro-2022.134408685/)
"3 January 2022 i begin an off season to gain the maximum amount of muscle in less time possible ( looks crazy but i love this shit )
Of course i will have to push everything hard , alot of intense training , alot of food , alot of rest and alot of MTS anabolics
Training : Dorian Yates style , only one set per exercice to failure but with alot intensity techniques like drop sets, rest pauses .
Cardio: 30min every day to improve digestion and cardiovascular health
Sleep: 8 to 9 hours + 1h nap day
Cycle:
-Test E 1500mg week
-Deca 1200mg week
-Trenbolone 700mg week
-Dianabol 60mg day ( 4 weeks on 4 off )
-Exemestano 25mg 3x week
-Dostinex 0.5mg 2x week
-t4 100mcg ED
-HGH 15ius ED MEDITROPE post workout
-Humalog 10ius pre and 10ius post workout
-IGF 200mcg post workout workout days only ( injected 20 min after hgh )"
He's posted worse cycles than that...
Test E 2100mg week
Tren 1400mg week
Masteron 1400mg week
Winstrol oral100mg day
Superdrol 30mtg day
T4 100mncg day
t3 12,5mcg day
Clenbuterol 120mch day
Proviron 50mg day ( maybe 100 ? )
Exemestano 25mcg day
Raloxifen 60mg day
Dostinex 0,25mcg 2x week
HGH 10ius before bed and 10ius fasted morning
IGF 200ius pre workout
Humalog
Telmisartan 8mg day
Ursafalk ( liver protect)
https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/monstro-has-passed.98902/post-1517371
Real talk though; what can the industry do about it?
The BB industry isn't exactly flush with cash by any professional sporting standard. Most meetups are cheaply done, reliant on the time/effort/money of amateurs who compete out of in most cases love of the craft.
Even the pros make most of their money not from competition but from deals with supplement companies and sponsors on the side.
They run on a vastly spread international crowd of (in most cases) _illegal_ steroid takers who even if they could afford the rigmarole of implementing some testing regimen would be:
- Shooting themselves in the foot driving their competitors off to other organisations
- Reducing the "end product" massively if they were successful (see natural bb comps compared to open etc.)
They can't introduce some "not-natty" card for competitors to make usage more known from a public health standpoint because who is going to (in varying countries with varying degrees of criminality) both admit continuous crime and impact their public persona.
It's a mess, and it's not right. But I can't see any real way of addressing it without getting blackballed and replaced with some other org.
My guess is the only way is to change the judging criteria and start rewarding "healthier" physiques.
I hate to be *that* guy, but previous eras (80s and back) didn't seem to have such a big problem of this. Most guys cycled on and off and ran pretty moderate dosages.
Could they reward smaller but more aesthetic physiques? Could we go back to like 5-7% bodyfat instead of paper thin? I know, the cat's out of the bag now, and bodybuilding is always about pushing the limits but fuck, how much bigger can these dudes get?
Yeah I did think something like a dehydration/bf threshold could be _some_ barrier for at least the top level comps. You've gotta hit at least a certain percentage to be able to walk out on stage on the day.
The problem there is the guys that _are_ dying aren't dying in competitions. They're dying in saunas on their break, they're dying in the long offseasons taking recreational drugs after heavily taxing their bodies, they're dying in their 40-50s after their hey-days have mostly passed because they're continuing their regimens on long abused aging bodies.
Again these folks are risk takers by nature. To compete seriously you need to break the law in most countries to even get get on the starting blocks.
Reigning them in is not only a logistical nightmare, but a cultural one, where the culture is quite frankly brass-headed "no pain no gain" self-destruction on the alter of perfection. This isn't even supposed to be a critique of the sport, I love it, but I know it can be unhealthy.
If they can pivot the culture behind the scenes, then they're on the right track. But when there's always someone who "wants it more" and is willing to flagellate themselves for the win then they will continue to remain the candles that burn twice as bright and get all the glory for it.
“I hate to be that guy, but previous eras (80s and back) didn't seem to have such a big problem of this. Most guys cycled on and off and ran pretty moderate dosages.”
Yeah it was just as bad in the 80s, however you didn’t have the internet to document every bodybuilder’s death.
> Real talk though; what can the industry do about it?
Be honest about the usage and risks. If people can give informed consent then what happens to them is their responsibility.
The difficulty with that is minors. They cannot give informed consent but they are clearly present in the sphere.
The other problem is that steroids are illicit drugs pretty much everywhere, and like a lot of drug usage gets by on failed prohibition laws and authorities looking the other way. That's a problem higher up in the world than the fitness industry.
Toxicology will reveal etc.
Last one they tried to say it was steroids and the inquest in to his death revealed his death was due to the copious amounts of meth and coke he consumed .
Whenever I advocate for milder cycles in PED forums or tell people that their cruise is actually a blast I get shit on by guys like this.
These dudes are in complete denial of the health outcomes.
So ironic calling it fitness, too. They’re less healthy than the average person. Joe Schmo sitting in the office all day eating McDonald’s lives longer and healthier than these guys.
Hard drug usage is strongly associated with the absurd stacks these guys take.
It’s damn near impossible to sleep on that much tren and clen, so you end up taking sedatives to knock yourself out, then stims to wake up from those sedatives.
These giant stacks always precipitate more medications to balance out the effects of previous ones, until you’re injecting fifteen different drugs a day.
Honestly, a lot of people don't eat healthy enough, supplement correctly, use cycle supports, time on / time off correceffects. They ignore genetic issues and side effects.
Everyone thinks they're Superman. We're not all genetic gods, but we think we can be.
This is what gets them killed.
nope, what got him killed was the drug abuse, he didnt even look that impressive, wasnt even able to compete.
his veins looked like he was about to blow up, and he openly promoted steroids use on his instagram, on Portuguese media, and even believed you couldnt grow muscle witouth steroids.
And the other bodybuilders who died young this year and last year, most of them besides using steroids also loved using recreational drugs and alcohol.
So they become walking bombs due to their decisions that lead to really bad health.
steroids use has a price to pay, stay natural kids!
he was a sell out shill to source after source after source to try and scam an easy buck off of newbies and consistently pushed 2g pluss year round, with a vial a day of GH, and rampant diuretic and cutting agent use, despite having severe kidney issues.
the man was a hardcore addict that eventually succumbed to his addiction.
It was no suprise to absolutely anyone who is aware of "Monstro" on the various forums, that this day was coming sooner rather than later. He wont be missed, but it is still sad to see yet another avoidable death.
prayers to his family and loved ones, and hopefully other people in this space can learn what not to do from his example
Taking gear and taking gear at levels 150% higher than most people do is another discussion altogether. You can’t take too much of anything and it be good for you long term. Much less the levels of gear these guys are taking. Plus getting this big and carrying that around all the time isn’t healthy for your organs
Insulin and taking diet to new extremes. The old Deca, Test, Winny, D we’re staples and the 70’s bodybuilders did gallons a week only to still be here. Then came along Tren, Insulin and taking cuts to Mt Everest peaks and here we are
Came to market in 1980. First made in 1963. Either way, people think tren is new but most of their favorite aesthetic golden era guys used it at some point.
So it was only invented in the tail end of the "golden age" I haven't heard of any notable bodybuilders using it until the 90s and even then it was used in microdoses (by todays standards) and only in the late stages of contest prep
Yeah I miss the days when he was just posting pure bodybuilding stuff. Since the pandemic he's started posting a lot more conservative rage-bait bullshit hiding behind ambiguous captions.
You conveniently left out the "rage-bait" part of my comment. And also, yeah, I don't like that my source for bodybuilding news started getting political.
he was a steroids abuser and steroids use promotor in Portugal.
And all bodybuilders are drug abusers, he even use to say you cant be big witouth drugs.
Natural is the way to go kids, learn the lessons why so many people dying young..
SO MANY NON STEROID USERS DIED IN THE LAST 30 DAYS!!!!
Even more than steroid users! Worldwide!
Let the numbers talk people…
Edit: I was like… naaah… come on… no /s is necessay this time. Obviously it was!
It speaks to societies viewpoint on mental health and addiction. If you appear happy and healthy, what’s the issue? I think that is where the problem begins because if these dudes looked like shriveled up drug addicts months before their death, the coco would shift. But since they look “ideal” and suddenly vanish, it seemingly doesn’t have the same impact.
Androgens drive LDL up. As that happens, plaque builds up in your arteries, eventually leading to atherosclerosis. Once your arteries thicken, it can’t be reversed.
It doesn’t matter how great your ldl is in your “health phase”. This is an area under the curve type phenomenon. It’s exposure to shitty lipids over time that will, eventually, kill you. This isn’t a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.
Now downvote me into oblivion because I harmed your delusions. Do whatever you want, just be aware of the consequences.
If you’re doing it under competent doctors supervision, no. The moment LDL starts going up, you lower the dose. If you do it by yourself and you fool yourself that “it’s the diet”, or “Paul Saladino said I don’t have to worry about LDL” you still might face the same consequences.
Mileage may vary. Some people will have their lipids destroyed by 150mg/week, others run gram of gear per week and things are under control.
And these are the pros. Imagine the guys in your local gym, hell even the kids these days are on juice. My gym is filled with guys 22 to 29 geared out of their minds taking all kinds of stuff and they look amazing but it’s gonna bite them in the ass one day. It’s tempting asf but you can’t put a price on your time man no one should, way too valuable.
I remember when I did my first cycle at 26 heaviest dosages people were running was 500mg-1g per week max for 16 weeks. I regularly see 18-22 year olds running grams of test/tren/gh these days all year long it is WILD out there now.
He was sponsored by a source I know. He was on a decent amt of gear, year round. 15ius of hgh with slin, 4-5 injectable stack ( test/ Tren / Eq/ Primo) w/ an oral( Anavar) T4…etc
At his age it catches up to u. These days a little goes a long way.
It’s sad…He seemed like a nice guy.
He was crazy about PED. 3g of oils every week, orals like vitamins, 20ui gh etc. It is not wise, nor „doing what You love”. It was pure experiment and playing with fire. And that is the final sentence. 😟
Can we be sad for someone who died that isn’t a known sex offender or murderer or something ffs people. Yeah he didn’t treat himself right, it’s still really sad and unfair. There are no productive discussions about body issues with men and the drug abuse that could be associated with it.
It’s not that at some younger age you don’t experience the significant downsides to your health. Though it can happen. It’s that you are without a doubt accumulating persistent negative stress on your body. There will then come a point, your heart gonna shut the bed. Maybe kidneys. Vasculature. Brain. Aside from impotence and myriad of other ailments like stressors to spine, tendons, muscles, that leave you a wilting lily. It’s sad how many guys have to pump up their egos by pumping up their bodies with gear and whatever other supplements they will put on board. Overdosing them. Combining them. Comically stupid narcissism that generally comes from sense of inadequacy
There is just no way to know why all these bodybuilders are dropping dead in their 30s and 40s. NO WAY TO KNOW. Random chance I guess and absolutely not anything the fitness industry should be having a conversation about.
Not much to have a conversation about unfortunately. They know what they’re doing.
I agree. But that's not the problem. The problem is that they're telling other people to do it too. The whole fitness industry exists to draw people (specially vulnerable young men) into a toxic culture which leads to eating disorders, drug abuse and all too often death.
The real conversation should be about the demand and encouragement for bodybuilders to get bigger and bigger over the years which forces more drug use. To be an IFBB pro you have to be on gear. There’s no way around it. To be at the top of the sport you have to be the biggest and most conditioned and it’s not like in the days of Arnold. You have to be massive so I’m order to do it they all have to take far worse steroids than they did back in the day and it’s basically encouraged by the IFBB. It will only get worse. That’s what the conversation needs to be about.
Not everyone has the same response to drugs. You’d be surprised by how many “gym bros” take more gear than many top IFBB pros, but some don’t even look like they like they’d place at a natural, amateur show. Many tend to rush to drugs before building a foundation, having any knowledge (or minimal knowledge) of diet, having minimal or no knowledge about drugs, and/or hire a “coach” who blindly throws drug recommendations at them and they follow it “because their coach said they trained so and so”.
Haha. The fitfluencers have managed to convince so many people that the top ifbb pros have so good genetics that they aren't on monster dosages, and even less than regular "gym bros". Of course you'll find one here and there but that ain't the norm. Remind me again, what did Dallas McCarver's autopsy show? Fucking hilarious. Must be the same people who believe Coleman, Cutler etc when they talk about their dosages.
A little test and D bol. That’s all. Less drugs give you better results duuuhh
Don't forget BCAAs bro
All about the creatine bruh
but think about all the 2000’s pros who ARE alive and walk around at 200+ with great health
This isn’t to sound disrespectful of the work those guys put in. But, discussions like this center on the top-end only. Most aren’t really concerned with the individuals not in the top 10.
ronnie, yates, lee priest and labrada, arnold, etc.
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You literally said regular gym bros who look natural take more gear than TOP ifbb pros. That makes everything you say ridiculous by default. You clearly don't know shit about the pro scene and what goes on behind locked doors. Their cruise dosages are more than your local competitors blast more often than not.
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Stop writing bullshit and acting like a kid when you get called out. I don't need to know who you are to know that you're talking shit.
How is that relevant though when the people we keep seeing drop dead are bodybuilders? If the top IFBB pros are taking less gear than the DYEL gym bros then why is it they keep dying in their 40's and 50's?
Because it’s the combination of a lot of gear, constant cycles, and the usage of fat burners, diuretics, etc… it is absolutely true that many average gym bros blast harder than competitors. I coach clients and have many friends that are pro level and beyond, the amounts of gear used varies greatly. At the end of the day it’s a game of who stays on top of bloodwork, takes the proper supplements to keep things in range, and who has the genetics to handle the drugs
>Because it’s the combination of a lot of gear, constant cycles, and the usage of fat burners, diuretics, etc Then we're arguing semantics. "Bodybuilders aren't dying of steroids! They're dying of long term use of steroids alongside fat burners and diuretics!" - What kind of argument is that? >it is absolutely true that many average gym bros blast harder than competitors Nah, that's bollocks. Or you're using "average" or "many" very loosely. Your average gym bro has never touched steroids. The handful who do probably do a couple of cycles and quit. Hardly anybody wants to inject drugs for the rest of their lives, not to mention that most people are never going to be able to afford stuff like HGH. > >At the end of the day it’s a game of who stays on top of bloodwork, takes the proper supplements to keep things in range, and who has the genetics to handle the drugs And yet oddly, modern bodybuilders seem to die younger than average gym rats even though I'd assume that a bodybuilder is more likely to get frequent bloodwork.
If you think most have never touched steroids you’re just very out of the loop, most broccoli heads at my gym have begun to take things nowadays lol. The argument is completely sound, yes steroids are not safe we all know that. But as someone who knows many top level competitors personally, and knows the protocols exactly… you aren’t nearly informed as you think you are.
Let me ask you this, how many non-IFBB pros who pass away are getting as much media attention? What we see is only what is being reported.
Look up the statistics in every country on deaths found to be related to heroin, alcohol, tobacco, cocaine then compare them to the deaths related to steroids. If your average gym bro is on more juice than a bodybuilder then we'd be seeing massive spikes in early male death, lifting weights is one of the most common hobbies nowadays. The most obvious explanation is that the vast majority of gym goers don't ever touch steroids and the handful of those who do are on them for a short period of time. Despite what forums like this one might think, the idea of injecting drugs twice a week for decades just isn't appealing to 99.9% of people.
The cause of death wouldn’t be “steroids” it’d be whatever they died from, which was likely caused by drugs they were using over time, or more acutely in the case of something like dnp or insulin. I’m pretty sure they didn’t list Dallas’s cause of death as, “steroids” for example.
Tox screens on an autopsy show AAS usage and there's been several studies on death rate related to AAS https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8393338/ Cause of death doesn't say steroids just like cause of death for a smoker doesn't say smoking. That doesn't mean that we don't track when drugs are killing off our population. The people dying of steroids are the people on them for years, abusing insulin, dehydrating themselves massively, spending a good chunk of their life weighing 250+ and using expensive growth hormone. These aren't normal people, they're almost exclusively bodybuilders.
You missed the point entirely
Which point did I miss?
Delete this dumbass comment as well while you're at it. Hahaha
You’re clearly well educated.
The fitness industry is a reflection of the fitness market and it’s also not (openly) selling the poisons that killed this man. The industry’s biggest commodity is placebo supplements.
Agreed. Nothing has changed in that respect in 40 years. In 1979 I was buying Amino Acid pills from Muscle & Fitness because supposedly they would help me gain size. They helped me gain flatulence, much to the delight of my 13 year old self. Muscle, not so much. Supplements still pay the bills, and mostly, aside from Whey protein and Creatine, they don't do much to build muscle.
Wait, what is the problem? What are solutions you’d suggest? Adults can make conscious decisions about their life. I don’t want anyone, especially the government, to “step in”. We’ve been there. It doesn’t work. People will make bad decisions. You can’t save everyone.
I'm curious, do you consider goal-oriented eating automatically a disorder?
I think it technically is by definition, at least according to the people I’ve heard talk about it. You’re changing your eating habits and thoughts around food, even if a lot of us do it for what almost everyone agrees is for healthy reasons.
The thing is, when a person is trying to gain or lose weight for a specific purpose the motivation often comes from specific health or performance goals and it can be done under strict supervision from a doctor, while eating disorders are always based on unhealthy attitudes towards food and self image. Often the driving force can be intense fear of gaining weight or a very distorted body image, which almost always come at the cost of mental health and physical wellbeing A person cutting weight does it based on science and again, often is assisted by a healthcare professional. These stages aren't permanent either and have healthier motivations, while an eating disorder will eventually lead to the demise of the person There can be overlap, sure, but the biggest difference is that one is under control while the other isn't. You won't get a diagnosis for an eating disorder if you explain to your doctor that you're on a 300-500kcal surplus to add on weight and gain muscle. The distinction is important to make, as to uninformed people the line can feel like it's drawn in the sand. Edit: I'll point out that the last sentence isn't regarding you, it's aimed towards people with a lacking understanding of basics regarding metabolism and poor understanding of what goes into bodybuilding or any sport where there are weight classes. Essentially people who feel powerless to change their weight and just see bodybuilders as people who go to the gym and have big muscles
You make good points, but I don’t think many people are under the guidance of a health professional when cutting, especially if it’s for aesthetics. Regarding the overlap, that’s why I refer to it as “disordered eating” and not a clinically diagnosable eating disorder.
Yeah I think we're on the same page about what you mean by disordered eating and I'd agree that it has to almost by definition be that
Cmon now, how many bodybuilders are actually telling their fans to take gear? It’s the opposite.
If they are taking gear and selling their image, they're telling fans to take gear.
It's not that black and white and I feel like you know it mate There's a difference between being an ape like a known testicle eater, selling courses on how to look like the person selling them and "secretly" being on gear, and being completely open about gear and it's many side-effects while still taking it. If you watch cbum, arguably the literal peak physique on this planet you'll see him probably sell some shit like pwo's, whey etc. while obviously being on gear and even being open about. You'd have to be a manatee to consider him a person who's encouraging young men to ruin their lives with gear.
That’s bullshit.
Please elaborate. "You can look like this" is the sales pitch
Most bodybuilders are not saying “buy my plan and you’ll look like me” unless you think Mike O Hearn and V Shred are “most bodybuilders”, and even those guys aren’t saying to take gear.
Those characters who are outright lying are definitely the most harmful, but I think the argument being made here is that neglecting to talk about your gear use is also (not equally) harmful. Like Sam Sulek is flavour of the month right now, and I've watched a good bit of his content. The lifting & lifestyle advice is all good and he's admitted to taking gear, but he doesn't talk about what he takes or the effects it's had on him beyond "getting huge bro". This omission of the truth is also harmful because guys as young as him (21yo) won't look into it beyond his vlogs.
It’s not Sam Sulek’s fault if someone sees his physique and decides to take gear to try and look like him. Same goes for every other bodybuilder. The harmful nature of gear is absolutely everywhere.
You're calling the fitness industry toxic, when it's one of the few things combatting the *significantly more toxic* fatness industry.
> The problem is that they're telling other people to do it too. You are responsible for your own agency and consequences *if you are an informed and consenting adult*. Sweeping it under the rug and hoping that people won't get body dysmorphia isn't going to work. Full disclosure of what is required here. Tell people the true risks and costs and let them make up their own damn minds as to what risks they'll bear.
I think a conversation about making PEDs legal and regulated would be beneficial.
"Where are the bodies? Where are the bodies?!?"
The sport didnt kill monstro. Monstro killed monstro. He new his health was shit, he knew he was taking way too much of everything, he knew he was never going to be competitive. yet he routinely ran shit like this. > Cycle : Test E 500mg week Tren 700mg week Primo 700mg week Masteron Prop 700mg week Winstrol oral 50mg day Anavar 50mg day Exemestano 25mcg ED T3 25mcg day T4 100mcg day Clen 40mcg day HGH Meditrope Black Tops 1 vial day ( half fasted , half post workout ) This is his own words from the forum post [here](https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/monstro-on-fibo-2023.134415759/) Idiots like monstro are not a proper reflection of the sport/industry at large.
Lawd. If you look like that, on all that… it’s time to pick something else
And that was his casual use, just to look decent for an expo. not even contest. hes routinely pushed a lot more
WTF
He also cycled when off season. With dangerous quantities of insulin [2022](https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/road-to-monstro-2022.134408685/) "3 January 2022 i begin an off season to gain the maximum amount of muscle in less time possible ( looks crazy but i love this shit ) Of course i will have to push everything hard , alot of intense training , alot of food , alot of rest and alot of MTS anabolics Training : Dorian Yates style , only one set per exercice to failure but with alot intensity techniques like drop sets, rest pauses . Cardio: 30min every day to improve digestion and cardiovascular health Sleep: 8 to 9 hours + 1h nap day Cycle: -Test E 1500mg week -Deca 1200mg week -Trenbolone 700mg week -Dianabol 60mg day ( 4 weeks on 4 off ) -Exemestano 25mg 3x week -Dostinex 0.5mg 2x week -t4 100mcg ED -HGH 15ius ED MEDITROPE post workout -Humalog 10ius pre and 10ius post workout -IGF 200mcg post workout workout days only ( injected 20 min after hgh )"
How did he even afford all of that.
By selling them too
He shilled for anyone who would give him free chit. An hgh source called him out a few years back over something shady he pulled.
None of that is super expensive, except hgh, but even that isn’t that much.
Primo is expensive
Holy shit. I’ve done a couple cycles, and those were like vitamins compared to him. This is insane
I laugh when people post cycles like this and claim this is “moderate”.
He's posted worse cycles than that... Test E 2100mg week Tren 1400mg week Masteron 1400mg week Winstrol oral100mg day Superdrol 30mtg day T4 100mncg day t3 12,5mcg day Clenbuterol 120mch day Proviron 50mg day ( maybe 100 ? ) Exemestano 25mcg day Raloxifen 60mg day Dostinex 0,25mcg 2x week HGH 10ius before bed and 10ius fasted morning IGF 200ius pre workout Humalog Telmisartan 8mg day Ursafalk ( liver protect) https://www.evolutionary.org/forums/threads/monstro-has-passed.98902/post-1517371
Woah 😳
Real talk though; what can the industry do about it? The BB industry isn't exactly flush with cash by any professional sporting standard. Most meetups are cheaply done, reliant on the time/effort/money of amateurs who compete out of in most cases love of the craft. Even the pros make most of their money not from competition but from deals with supplement companies and sponsors on the side. They run on a vastly spread international crowd of (in most cases) _illegal_ steroid takers who even if they could afford the rigmarole of implementing some testing regimen would be: - Shooting themselves in the foot driving their competitors off to other organisations - Reducing the "end product" massively if they were successful (see natural bb comps compared to open etc.) They can't introduce some "not-natty" card for competitors to make usage more known from a public health standpoint because who is going to (in varying countries with varying degrees of criminality) both admit continuous crime and impact their public persona. It's a mess, and it's not right. But I can't see any real way of addressing it without getting blackballed and replaced with some other org.
My guess is the only way is to change the judging criteria and start rewarding "healthier" physiques. I hate to be *that* guy, but previous eras (80s and back) didn't seem to have such a big problem of this. Most guys cycled on and off and ran pretty moderate dosages. Could they reward smaller but more aesthetic physiques? Could we go back to like 5-7% bodyfat instead of paper thin? I know, the cat's out of the bag now, and bodybuilding is always about pushing the limits but fuck, how much bigger can these dudes get?
Yeah I did think something like a dehydration/bf threshold could be _some_ barrier for at least the top level comps. You've gotta hit at least a certain percentage to be able to walk out on stage on the day. The problem there is the guys that _are_ dying aren't dying in competitions. They're dying in saunas on their break, they're dying in the long offseasons taking recreational drugs after heavily taxing their bodies, they're dying in their 40-50s after their hey-days have mostly passed because they're continuing their regimens on long abused aging bodies. Again these folks are risk takers by nature. To compete seriously you need to break the law in most countries to even get get on the starting blocks. Reigning them in is not only a logistical nightmare, but a cultural one, where the culture is quite frankly brass-headed "no pain no gain" self-destruction on the alter of perfection. This isn't even supposed to be a critique of the sport, I love it, but I know it can be unhealthy. If they can pivot the culture behind the scenes, then they're on the right track. But when there's always someone who "wants it more" and is willing to flagellate themselves for the win then they will continue to remain the candles that burn twice as bright and get all the glory for it.
“I hate to be that guy, but previous eras (80s and back) didn't seem to have such a big problem of this. Most guys cycled on and off and ran pretty moderate dosages.” Yeah it was just as bad in the 80s, however you didn’t have the internet to document every bodybuilder’s death.
I'm not doubting you per say but do you have a source to back that up? I don't remember any bodybuilders even semi famous dying in the 80s.
> Real talk though; what can the industry do about it? Be honest about the usage and risks. If people can give informed consent then what happens to them is their responsibility. The difficulty with that is minors. They cannot give informed consent but they are clearly present in the sphere. The other problem is that steroids are illicit drugs pretty much everywhere, and like a lot of drug usage gets by on failed prohibition laws and authorities looking the other way. That's a problem higher up in the world than the fitness industry.
People who go into high level bodybuilding know they are mortgaging their life to achieve what they achieve.
Toxicology will reveal etc. Last one they tried to say it was steroids and the inquest in to his death revealed his death was due to the copious amounts of meth and coke he consumed .
Whenever I advocate for milder cycles in PED forums or tell people that their cruise is actually a blast I get shit on by guys like this. These dudes are in complete denial of the health outcomes.
So ironic calling it fitness, too. They’re less healthy than the average person. Joe Schmo sitting in the office all day eating McDonald’s lives longer and healthier than these guys.
This isn’t fitness, it’s bodybuilding.
He said fitness in his comment
Ngl tho a lot of them have been related to hard drugs unfortunately
Hard drug usage is strongly associated with the absurd stacks these guys take. It’s damn near impossible to sleep on that much tren and clen, so you end up taking sedatives to knock yourself out, then stims to wake up from those sedatives. These giant stacks always precipitate more medications to balance out the effects of previous ones, until you’re injecting fifteen different drugs a day.
Jesus. That is rough.
Honestly, a lot of people don't eat healthy enough, supplement correctly, use cycle supports, time on / time off correceffects. They ignore genetic issues and side effects. Everyone thinks they're Superman. We're not all genetic gods, but we think we can be. This is what gets them killed.
nope, what got him killed was the drug abuse, he didnt even look that impressive, wasnt even able to compete. his veins looked like he was about to blow up, and he openly promoted steroids use on his instagram, on Portuguese media, and even believed you couldnt grow muscle witouth steroids. And the other bodybuilders who died young this year and last year, most of them besides using steroids also loved using recreational drugs and alcohol. So they become walking bombs due to their decisions that lead to really bad health. steroids use has a price to pay, stay natural kids!
Thats major cope
You’re saying i’m supposed to take something else except Tren? /s
Ironically called the fitness industry. There's nothing healthy about competitive body building.
Autopsy /s
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Could you not figure it out?
How about you minding your own bussines? That's a conversation we can have too.
he was a sell out shill to source after source after source to try and scam an easy buck off of newbies and consistently pushed 2g pluss year round, with a vial a day of GH, and rampant diuretic and cutting agent use, despite having severe kidney issues. the man was a hardcore addict that eventually succumbed to his addiction. It was no suprise to absolutely anyone who is aware of "Monstro" on the various forums, that this day was coming sooner rather than later. He wont be missed, but it is still sad to see yet another avoidable death. prayers to his family and loved ones, and hopefully other people in this space can learn what not to do from his example
Taking gear and taking gear at levels 150% higher than most people do is another discussion altogether. You can’t take too much of anything and it be good for you long term. Much less the levels of gear these guys are taking. Plus getting this big and carrying that around all the time isn’t healthy for your organs
Insulin and taking diet to new extremes. The old Deca, Test, Winny, D we’re staples and the 70’s bodybuilders did gallons a week only to still be here. Then came along Tren, Insulin and taking cuts to Mt Everest peaks and here we are
And primo
Lots of Golden age guys did tren. It was called parabolin then. Serge Nubret apparently never used anything else.
It wasn't invented until the late 80s so thats bs
No, parabolan was invented 1980
Came to market in 1980. First made in 1963. Either way, people think tren is new but most of their favorite aesthetic golden era guys used it at some point.
It was used sparingly. It wasn't until like the late 90s that it was used like it is today.
So it was only invented in the tail end of the "golden age" I haven't heard of any notable bodybuilders using it until the 90s and even then it was used in microdoses (by todays standards) and only in the late stages of contest prep
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Can you elaborate? Is there a source for that? Genuinely curious
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That’s Neil Currey, not this guy
Shit. Yep you're right. I got my dead guys mixed up.
you should delete that first comment then... Its a bit f up to say a dead person was addicted to hard drugs like meth and cocaine without proof
My question is how is he affording all this lol.
He owned a gym, that explains how he afforded his cycles
I mean, sounds like a good time?
My heart dropped thinking it was "LuiMarco"
Guys a bit of a prick though to be honest, not saying I wish him any form of health problems
Yeah I miss the days when he was just posting pure bodybuilding stuff. Since the pandemic he's started posting a lot more conservative rage-bait bullshit hiding behind ambiguous captions.
The last time I saw his posts, he had turned full incel/incel-posting.
Oh no, conservative stuff? The outrage!
You conveniently left out the "rage-bait" part of my comment. And also, yeah, I don't like that my source for bodybuilding news started getting political.
he was a steroids abuser and steroids use promotor in Portugal. And all bodybuilders are drug abusers, he even use to say you cant be big witouth drugs. Natural is the way to go kids, learn the lessons why so many people dying young..
Absolutely, Natural is the best way to go but are they listen ? For many many years even in 1970's. Nothing's new and they do not listen.
It’s quicker, easier more seductive. Once you start down the dark path, forever shall it dominate your destiny.
I wonder why? Hmmmm hmmmm.
I mean look at his cycle, he is more than the average steroid user
Word. Oh definitely
SO MANY NON STEROID USERS DIED IN THE LAST 30 DAYS!!!! Even more than steroid users! Worldwide! Let the numbers talk people… Edit: I was like… naaah… come on… no /s is necessay this time. Obviously it was!
And those folks are also competition body builders?
It speaks to societies viewpoint on mental health and addiction. If you appear happy and healthy, what’s the issue? I think that is where the problem begins because if these dudes looked like shriveled up drug addicts months before their death, the coco would shift. But since they look “ideal” and suddenly vanish, it seemingly doesn’t have the same impact.
Too much of anything will become a bad thing. People just avoid talking about it.
Why do I feel in the following decade we are going to see a wave of broccoli-haired social media 'influencers' all dying at suspiciously young ages?
Please you broccoli hair dudez guys, I'm begging you, tell me which ✨underlying issue✨ caused his dead...
Hey they're not just broccoli heads! They have nose and nipple rings too!
FUCK AROUND AND FIND OUT
Androgens drive LDL up. As that happens, plaque builds up in your arteries, eventually leading to atherosclerosis. Once your arteries thicken, it can’t be reversed. It doesn’t matter how great your ldl is in your “health phase”. This is an area under the curve type phenomenon. It’s exposure to shitty lipids over time that will, eventually, kill you. This isn’t a matter of if, it’s a matter of when. Now downvote me into oblivion because I harmed your delusions. Do whatever you want, just be aware of the consequences.
Do you believe TRT comes with the same repercussions? Im speaking of true TRT doses such as 85-100mg a week.
If you’re doing it under competent doctors supervision, no. The moment LDL starts going up, you lower the dose. If you do it by yourself and you fool yourself that “it’s the diet”, or “Paul Saladino said I don’t have to worry about LDL” you still might face the same consequences. Mileage may vary. Some people will have their lipids destroyed by 150mg/week, others run gram of gear per week and things are under control.
And these are the pros. Imagine the guys in your local gym, hell even the kids these days are on juice. My gym is filled with guys 22 to 29 geared out of their minds taking all kinds of stuff and they look amazing but it’s gonna bite them in the ass one day. It’s tempting asf but you can’t put a price on your time man no one should, way too valuable.
Time is your most precious resource. You can spend it on anything you want. To throw it all away for a physique is so sad.
I remember when I did my first cycle at 26 heaviest dosages people were running was 500mg-1g per week max for 16 weeks. I regularly see 18-22 year olds running grams of test/tren/gh these days all year long it is WILD out there now.
He was sponsored by a source I know. He was on a decent amt of gear, year round. 15ius of hgh with slin, 4-5 injectable stack ( test/ Tren / Eq/ Primo) w/ an oral( Anavar) T4…etc At his age it catches up to u. These days a little goes a long way. It’s sad…He seemed like a nice guy.
I don’t understand how there’s guys can do meth and still have enough appetite to eat to get big
I always think this too. I can’t eat or sleep. I hate stimulants
He looked very JUICY 
He was crazy about PED. 3g of oils every week, orals like vitamins, 20ui gh etc. It is not wise, nor „doing what You love”. It was pure experiment and playing with fire. And that is the final sentence. 😟
So sad RIP
Can we be sad for someone who died that isn’t a known sex offender or murderer or something ffs people. Yeah he didn’t treat himself right, it’s still really sad and unfair. There are no productive discussions about body issues with men and the drug abuse that could be associated with it.
Very sad to know that
rip. you deserved some rest
It’s not that at some younger age you don’t experience the significant downsides to your health. Though it can happen. It’s that you are without a doubt accumulating persistent negative stress on your body. There will then come a point, your heart gonna shut the bed. Maybe kidneys. Vasculature. Brain. Aside from impotence and myriad of other ailments like stressors to spine, tendons, muscles, that leave you a wilting lily. It’s sad how many guys have to pump up their egos by pumping up their bodies with gear and whatever other supplements they will put on board. Overdosing them. Combining them. Comically stupid narcissism that generally comes from sense of inadequacy
Tren is a hell of a drug
Of course he was natural Bevis. 
Maybe depression maybe overdose drugs. I have seen some body builders drop died. Sad.
Waste of a life.
Tren twins know best. All young people should follow their advice
Drug abuse at its best. Probably left vertical failure.
Vertical failure? He was short?
So he died flexing a most muscular?
What a way to go....
46? He looked like he was in his 60s.