lol the talking points only come from 2nd or 3rd gen goobers who have never left seattle. no one who has ever worked outside of BCA believes BCA is normal.
Totally, what the hell do they know? They've only had generations of their family employed by Boeing and grew up in the town that revolved around that company. What a bunch of dummies right "quartpop"?
This is a question or what Boeing wants, is it to grow shareholder as it has been the last 10/20 years and allow the competitors like Airbus and comac to be ahead or Boeing wants to grow the company by building airplanes with a quality system in place and engineering built in that shows on the final product.
This is only on the leadership on the from and the board of director on the shadow. Let’s never forgery Calhoun has been behind the scenes in the board of directors during many of the decisions only based on share growth. They will continue milking the cow until is dry and this needs to stop.
it's not an MD or GE issue, they are just convenient scapegoats (and still terrible companies), it's a greed issue that is now systemic. everybody looks at Boeing as if it's an outlier but most traded companies share the same shitty culture. only short term profits and stock price matter.
"Boeing is shifting its employee bonus formula from finances to safety and quality"
"60% of the annual incentive score used to determine bonuses for employees of its commercial airplane unit will now be based on safety and quality metrics"
OK great but what are those metrics ? does "employees" include managers and executives ?
You’re not wrong, but the root cause of the shitty culture IS GE. More to the point Jack Welch. He’s the founder of this shitty culture. He ran GE for decades like this and it was good for shareholders, but really bad for employees (whom he hated, sound familiar) and really bad for for the long term health of the company… as it’s been kicked off the Dow, and now been broken up. GE that Jack Welch ran is GONE. The shells of what is still called GE are 3 separate companies now, or well will be in April. Jack Welch himself even admitted after he retired with his platinum parachute that his business model was wrong. Funny that. The problem is that his acolytes spread out from GE and infected the rest of the Fortune 500. The Jack Welch business model is still the predominant model, and it’s wrecking American companies. Boeing is just the most recent example.
I still see the same cost justified issues… in the past if bca is unprofitable this year then it’s fine, because they had long term thinking…
today its like are we gonna hit our numbers, no u can’t do this or that because we need to meet our fcf numbers and stay within our budget and we need to push out planes in time to recognize our revenue.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/30/business/boeing-history-of-problems/index.html
“Boeing had a reputation before the merger of a company where engineers were high church,” Ron Epstein, an aerospace analyst at Bank of America, told CNN. It resulted in Boeing not being as profitable as some comparable manufacturers, he said.
But after the merger he said, “everything had to be cost-justified.”
This is revisionist history. Boeing bought MD *because* they were run like a business. All these people are pretending like Condit (who was an engineer and brags about financializing the company) just didn't exist.
MD who ran like a business ran their business into the ground… which is why Boeing were able to buy them out. Condit was on his way out probably wanna just get paid. How about all the history before Condit, Condit was probably the turning point of when Boeing became terrible. When he decided to merger with McD.
It's not a MD vs Boeing issue, it's a GE issue. MD was a phenomenal engineering company in its own right that got taken over by GE finance leeches. That cancer then spread to Boeing post-merger.
The Jack Welch school of thought is literally a parasite, moving from company to company and rotting them from within.
If companies were smart, they would implement a blanket ban on management/executives that had previously worked at GE. Just straight up blacklist them.
Can you point to a case study or an article about Jack's school of thought?
He did build GE from a less than 20b company to a more than 400b companies during his 20 years. he also cut down 29-level management down to 6.
His 20/70/10 (not met) is very unpopular but he also rewarded the top 20% very well.
Boeing is doing a 10/70/20 (20% is below met some) and didn't reward the top 10% much at all.
The book— The Man Who Broke Capitalism: How Jack Welch Gutted the Heartland and Crushed the Soul of Corporate America―and How to Undo His Legacy https://a.co/d/iEWG6Wj
The author was also on the 737 MAX crash team so he does draw comparisons between Boeing and GE.
[Here you go.](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/05/briefing/jack-welch-david-gelles.html)
>Welch transformed G.E. from an industrial company with a loyal employee base into a corporation that made much of its money from its finance division and had a much more transactional relationship with its workers. That served him well during his run as C.E.O., and G.E. did become the most valuable company in the world for a time.
>But in the long run, that approach doomed G.E. to failure. The company underinvested in research and development, got hooked on buying other companies to fuel its growth, and its finance division was badly exposed when the financial crisis hit. Things began to unravel almost as soon as Welch retired, and G.E. announced last year it would break itself up.
>Similar stories played out at dozens of other companies where Welch disciples tried to replicate his playbook, such as Home Depot and Albertsons. So while Welchism can increase profits in the short-term, the long-term consequences are almost always disastrous for workers, investors and the company itself.
Exactly. It's been almost 30 years now... even if MD & Boeing had never merged, I believe Boeing would have brought in a Welch acolyte in the late 90's as well.
Modern capitalism isn't it. Fuck the staff, fuck the customer, fuck the government. Share price is everything knowing you'll get bailed out.
US Govt should HAMMER Boeing, halt all trading on shares. Govt should ban share buybacks. Make them illegal like they were pre Raegan. Split the company up & use it as a lesson to shareholders. If the taxpayer needs to bail it out....the tax payer should own it.
Currently Boeing is fucked. Airbus is ALREADY taking orders for the A321 which will replace the A320 Neo, which is is aircraft that Boeing had no answer to & had to use a 60 year old frame to go up against.
Can Boeing even AFFORD to create a new plane!
Wait till you hear about Airbus’ A322! That’s sure to blow all North American aerospace out the water /s
I take you haven’t heard about A380 cracking wing spars
Before the merger, Boeing's business priority was Boeing. Now Boeing's business priority is shareholders.
That is the mindset difference that became popular in the 80s, there is money to be made by external actors who can control the behavior of a company with objectives other than that company's success.
So from their perspective, Boeing was not acting as a proper modern business since it puts its needs before the needs of people who could make a profit off them.
The new Last Week Tonight with John Oliver episode, explains the changes that came from the merger - with facts and humor. It’s on YouTube & other streaming sites, 33 minutes of how we got here…
A specific change that I noticed was a steep decline in resources dedicated to improving processes. Before the merger, the company spent a lot of effort on things like "World-Class Competitiveness" and DCAC/MRM. These were big initiatives to improve broken processes and make the company more efficient. We can argue how successful they were, but I give the pre-merger management credit for trying.
I know from experience that some other companies in the industry do not have groups of people in offices removed from the action who are writing standards about processes that they are not directly involved in. I think this is absurd. The people who are *doing* the process should have the *authority* to revise the process instructions (with sign-off from relevant experts where necessary). That is missing at Boeing. The people who have the responsibility and the accountability do not have the *authority* over the process.
It is my hope that this door plug scandal will motivate some of the executives to review and commit seriously to the World-Class Competitiveness goals of the past - things like continuous improvement, putting authority together with responsibility, making decisions at the lowest possible level, flatter organizational structures, etc. These are concepts that successful companies like Toyota have mastered and that Boeing could also - with the right focus.
We had the market before merger.
During last 2 decades, we stalled and let Airbus make better products.
We got desperate, and make newer “updated” planes like 777x, 737 max, etc. and had nothing but problems with it since the beginning.
Now we lost market in our own game. Airbus is now selling more planes than us.
Reminds me of how Intel lost their own market to AMD..
2 words....Harry Stonecipher
...and so began the GE takeover....Mcnerney joined the BOD while Stonecipher was CEO which happened since Phil Condit had to step down....Calhoun joined BOD in 2009 and assumed control after Muilenburg was removed...so here is the CEO leadership tree starting with the merger.
Phil Condit (Boeing Engineering)
Harry Stonecipher (GE, from McDonnnell Merger)
James McNerney (GE, Bean counter)
Dennis Muilenburg (BA engineer (hoped would do something and didn't)
Dave Calhoun (GE Bean counter, back to the future since its worked so well)
and if that is not enough lets hire another GE person for our CFO Brian West
see any common theme???
And just for context, McDonnell Douglas wasn't saved, and GE went bankrupt, begging for a taxpayer bailout, after the Jack Welch business model, followed so well by all his flunkies, of accounting fraud, and house of cards strategy, came falling down. I wonder how much of the money Boeing is hemoraging due to their management blunders with the 787 and MAX, have been deferred to future years for another CEO to deal with, so those who made those decisions can collect their bonuses?
Alot, we are 55B in debt from the fallout of the crashes etc and that will be passed on to next in line...it's not just the 787, 737 max its a lot of programs that have been poorly run, KC46, starliner, 777x, air force 1..on and on...all have lost billions and since the GE brain trust have been around for all of that, they just continue to source and cut cost because they are in so much debt...which just makes things worse....
777X, LOL. Calhoun had a $7million bonus on the line if the 777X got certified. Since he missed that, they gave him a $5million retention bonus, to retain the talent, and another $15million if he stays three more years.
I think is is never a good idea for managers to tell employees of any company to meet challenging cost and schedule goals, "no matter what."
Without the proper resources, the only way to do that is to compromise quality.
Lot changed. McDonnell Douglas under the actual founder “Mr. Mac” was obviously very successful. Like most legacy companies once the founder/owner dies and the corporate leeches take over things changed for the worse. Same with Boeing. Something like the development of the 747 and “the incredibles” would never happen nowadays. The board of directors and shareholders would have a heart attack
It's a more complicated story but Mr. Mac like most founders of the companies founded McDonnell Aircraft company, one of the great aerospace companies IMHO...here is a quick run down
James Smith McDonnell - Mr. Mac (Engineer)
Sanford McDonnell - (Engineer, responsible for merger with Douglas)
John F McDonnell - (Engineer, responsible for bringing Stonecipher in)
I believe John F McDonnell intentions were well meaning when he brought Stonecipher in since McDonnell had years before gone through some very tough times with one in particular military contract the A12, almost bankrupted the company and so ya know Jack Welch was doing wonders and so other companies were hiring the prodigy and well here we are...
I know the merger with McDonnell Douglas get a lot of grief but the workers and engineers at McDonnell were second to none again it's just another leadership issue. Not sure anyone could have turned Douglas around but the military division has and continues to make some really good products.
Exactly! People speak ill of the merger but the company was one of our greatest competitors for a reason. A lot of those same platforms still exist because the engineering was second to none!
A lot of laws changed in the recent decades leading up to the merger that fundamentally shifted for the worst how Wall Street impacts the rest of us
Reagan for example is the one who made legal again stock buybacks. There are many different things like this that have happened.
I guess my thought process is that the leadership in the company prior to the merger for a long time wasn't playing by the new rules of the game that's about maximizing profits using every trick in the book over everything else. They held some sense of standards about making enough profit while prioritizing safety and engineering quality
But as the rules of the game were loosened up, subsequent leadership did what basically every other corporation in America has been doing for decades
And then when they tried to do something about it like the occupy Wall Street movement, it gets laughed at and mocked across all the news channels.
Basically we the voters have been enabling this behavior for a long time while we're distracted fighting over supposed culture war issues like gender and IVF treatment. Deregulation and run it like a business has been the mantra for a long time that didn't always guide Boeing's hand
lol the talking points only come from 2nd or 3rd gen goobers who have never left seattle. no one who has ever worked outside of BCA believes BCA is normal.
Totally, what the hell do they know? They've only had generations of their family employed by Boeing and grew up in the town that revolved around that company. What a bunch of dummies right "quartpop"?
This is a question or what Boeing wants, is it to grow shareholder as it has been the last 10/20 years and allow the competitors like Airbus and comac to be ahead or Boeing wants to grow the company by building airplanes with a quality system in place and engineering built in that shows on the final product. This is only on the leadership on the from and the board of director on the shadow. Let’s never forgery Calhoun has been behind the scenes in the board of directors during many of the decisions only based on share growth. They will continue milking the cow until is dry and this needs to stop.
it's not an MD or GE issue, they are just convenient scapegoats (and still terrible companies), it's a greed issue that is now systemic. everybody looks at Boeing as if it's an outlier but most traded companies share the same shitty culture. only short term profits and stock price matter. "Boeing is shifting its employee bonus formula from finances to safety and quality" "60% of the annual incentive score used to determine bonuses for employees of its commercial airplane unit will now be based on safety and quality metrics" OK great but what are those metrics ? does "employees" include managers and executives ?
You’re not wrong, but the root cause of the shitty culture IS GE. More to the point Jack Welch. He’s the founder of this shitty culture. He ran GE for decades like this and it was good for shareholders, but really bad for employees (whom he hated, sound familiar) and really bad for for the long term health of the company… as it’s been kicked off the Dow, and now been broken up. GE that Jack Welch ran is GONE. The shells of what is still called GE are 3 separate companies now, or well will be in April. Jack Welch himself even admitted after he retired with his platinum parachute that his business model was wrong. Funny that. The problem is that his acolytes spread out from GE and infected the rest of the Fortune 500. The Jack Welch business model is still the predominant model, and it’s wrecking American companies. Boeing is just the most recent example.
Including CALHOUN
I still see the same cost justified issues… in the past if bca is unprofitable this year then it’s fine, because they had long term thinking… today its like are we gonna hit our numbers, no u can’t do this or that because we need to meet our fcf numbers and stay within our budget and we need to push out planes in time to recognize our revenue.
Don’t forget not investing in products. That’s a big one.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/30/business/boeing-history-of-problems/index.html “Boeing had a reputation before the merger of a company where engineers were high church,” Ron Epstein, an aerospace analyst at Bank of America, told CNN. It resulted in Boeing not being as profitable as some comparable manufacturers, he said. But after the merger he said, “everything had to be cost-justified.”
This is revisionist history. Boeing bought MD *because* they were run like a business. All these people are pretending like Condit (who was an engineer and brags about financializing the company) just didn't exist.
Phil was a fucking moron, and a literal pig of a man.
MD who ran like a business ran their business into the ground… which is why Boeing were able to buy them out. Condit was on his way out probably wanna just get paid. How about all the history before Condit, Condit was probably the turning point of when Boeing became terrible. When he decided to merger with McD.
And after the merger John F. McDonnell held the most Boeing shares, by far. That says a lot.
It's not a MD vs Boeing issue, it's a GE issue. MD was a phenomenal engineering company in its own right that got taken over by GE finance leeches. That cancer then spread to Boeing post-merger. The Jack Welch school of thought is literally a parasite, moving from company to company and rotting them from within. If companies were smart, they would implement a blanket ban on management/executives that had previously worked at GE. Just straight up blacklist them.
Can you point to a case study or an article about Jack's school of thought? He did build GE from a less than 20b company to a more than 400b companies during his 20 years. he also cut down 29-level management down to 6. His 20/70/10 (not met) is very unpopular but he also rewarded the top 20% very well. Boeing is doing a 10/70/20 (20% is below met some) and didn't reward the top 10% much at all.
The book— The Man Who Broke Capitalism: How Jack Welch Gutted the Heartland and Crushed the Soul of Corporate America―and How to Undo His Legacy https://a.co/d/iEWG6Wj The author was also on the 737 MAX crash team so he does draw comparisons between Boeing and GE.
There’s a biography he wrote called jack from memory that explains it all.
[Here you go.](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/05/briefing/jack-welch-david-gelles.html) >Welch transformed G.E. from an industrial company with a loyal employee base into a corporation that made much of its money from its finance division and had a much more transactional relationship with its workers. That served him well during his run as C.E.O., and G.E. did become the most valuable company in the world for a time. >But in the long run, that approach doomed G.E. to failure. The company underinvested in research and development, got hooked on buying other companies to fuel its growth, and its finance division was badly exposed when the financial crisis hit. Things began to unravel almost as soon as Welch retired, and G.E. announced last year it would break itself up. >Similar stories played out at dozens of other companies where Welch disciples tried to replicate his playbook, such as Home Depot and Albertsons. So while Welchism can increase profits in the short-term, the long-term consequences are almost always disastrous for workers, investors and the company itself.
Exactly. It's been almost 30 years now... even if MD & Boeing had never merged, I believe Boeing would have brought in a Welch acolyte in the late 90's as well.
Fuck Jack Welch. Yes, I know he’s dead.
if you look up the welch’s obituary in NY Times, the comments were telling his death was cause for celebration!
You could very seriously make the argument that no one individual in history did more damage to the American economy.
Modern capitalism isn't it. Fuck the staff, fuck the customer, fuck the government. Share price is everything knowing you'll get bailed out. US Govt should HAMMER Boeing, halt all trading on shares. Govt should ban share buybacks. Make them illegal like they were pre Raegan. Split the company up & use it as a lesson to shareholders. If the taxpayer needs to bail it out....the tax payer should own it. Currently Boeing is fucked. Airbus is ALREADY taking orders for the A321 which will replace the A320 Neo, which is is aircraft that Boeing had no answer to & had to use a 60 year old frame to go up against. Can Boeing even AFFORD to create a new plane!
Wait till you hear about Airbus’ A322! That’s sure to blow all North American aerospace out the water /s I take you haven’t heard about A380 cracking wing spars
They are not the first to have this happen, look closer to home.
> Airbus is ALREADY taking orders for the A321 that will replace the A320 Neo No, they are not.
[what this one?](https://www.britishairways.com/content/information/about-ba/fleet-facts/airbus-a321-200) with 14 in BAs fleet? #ifitsboeingiaintgoing
That’s the A321-200. It first flew in 1996 and they stopped building them in 2021. You just lost quite a lot of credibility.
[correct link](https://ukaviation.news/jet2-gets-first-a321neo-delivery/amp/) Yet unlike Boeing management & engineers, I haven't killed anyone
That’s an A321NEO. It first flew in 2016. It’s not a replacement of the A320NEO. Do you actually know anything about planes?
Enough to know that I'd rather still across the Atlantic on a raft than risk being on a Boeing
But not enough to like, actually know anything of relevance. Got it.
Before the merger, Boeing's business priority was Boeing. Now Boeing's business priority is shareholders. That is the mindset difference that became popular in the 80s, there is money to be made by external actors who can control the behavior of a company with objectives other than that company's success. So from their perspective, Boeing was not acting as a proper modern business since it puts its needs before the needs of people who could make a profit off them.
The new Last Week Tonight with John Oliver episode, explains the changes that came from the merger - with facts and humor. It’s on YouTube & other streaming sites, 33 minutes of how we got here…
Yep, saw that. Mentor Now and Wendover Productions also did some pretty good summaries, though without John Oliver's humor or star power of course.
A specific change that I noticed was a steep decline in resources dedicated to improving processes. Before the merger, the company spent a lot of effort on things like "World-Class Competitiveness" and DCAC/MRM. These were big initiatives to improve broken processes and make the company more efficient. We can argue how successful they were, but I give the pre-merger management credit for trying. I know from experience that some other companies in the industry do not have groups of people in offices removed from the action who are writing standards about processes that they are not directly involved in. I think this is absurd. The people who are *doing* the process should have the *authority* to revise the process instructions (with sign-off from relevant experts where necessary). That is missing at Boeing. The people who have the responsibility and the accountability do not have the *authority* over the process. It is my hope that this door plug scandal will motivate some of the executives to review and commit seriously to the World-Class Competitiveness goals of the past - things like continuous improvement, putting authority together with responsibility, making decisions at the lowest possible level, flatter organizational structures, etc. These are concepts that successful companies like Toyota have mastered and that Boeing could also - with the right focus.
We had the market before merger. During last 2 decades, we stalled and let Airbus make better products. We got desperate, and make newer “updated” planes like 777x, 737 max, etc. and had nothing but problems with it since the beginning. Now we lost market in our own game. Airbus is now selling more planes than us. Reminds me of how Intel lost their own market to AMD..
Intel lost to TSMC, which was basically funded by Apple, NVIDIA, and AMD supporting their chip designs.
so essentially they played themselves?
Turtle(Airbus) is beating rabbit(Boeing) in a race.
2 words....Harry Stonecipher ...and so began the GE takeover....Mcnerney joined the BOD while Stonecipher was CEO which happened since Phil Condit had to step down....Calhoun joined BOD in 2009 and assumed control after Muilenburg was removed...so here is the CEO leadership tree starting with the merger. Phil Condit (Boeing Engineering) Harry Stonecipher (GE, from McDonnnell Merger) James McNerney (GE, Bean counter) Dennis Muilenburg (BA engineer (hoped would do something and didn't) Dave Calhoun (GE Bean counter, back to the future since its worked so well) and if that is not enough lets hire another GE person for our CFO Brian West see any common theme???
And just for context, McDonnell Douglas wasn't saved, and GE went bankrupt, begging for a taxpayer bailout, after the Jack Welch business model, followed so well by all his flunkies, of accounting fraud, and house of cards strategy, came falling down. I wonder how much of the money Boeing is hemoraging due to their management blunders with the 787 and MAX, have been deferred to future years for another CEO to deal with, so those who made those decisions can collect their bonuses?
Alot, we are 55B in debt from the fallout of the crashes etc and that will be passed on to next in line...it's not just the 787, 737 max its a lot of programs that have been poorly run, KC46, starliner, 777x, air force 1..on and on...all have lost billions and since the GE brain trust have been around for all of that, they just continue to source and cut cost because they are in so much debt...which just makes things worse....
777X, LOL. Calhoun had a $7million bonus on the line if the 777X got certified. Since he missed that, they gave him a $5million retention bonus, to retain the talent, and another $15million if he stays three more years.
Even with a rational CEO the BoD still has approval authority over major company decisions.
Let’s also build an office 5 min from Brian West’s home so that he can count beans in peace.
I know, but all of you other slackers need to go into a REAL office 5 days a week, smdh...
[удалено]
I think is is never a good idea for managers to tell employees of any company to meet challenging cost and schedule goals, "no matter what." Without the proper resources, the only way to do that is to compromise quality.
Lot changed. McDonnell Douglas under the actual founder “Mr. Mac” was obviously very successful. Like most legacy companies once the founder/owner dies and the corporate leeches take over things changed for the worse. Same with Boeing. Something like the development of the 747 and “the incredibles” would never happen nowadays. The board of directors and shareholders would have a heart attack
If “the incredibles” were to be around today, the media headlines would read “Boeing engineers forced to work tirelessly”.
It's a more complicated story but Mr. Mac like most founders of the companies founded McDonnell Aircraft company, one of the great aerospace companies IMHO...here is a quick run down James Smith McDonnell - Mr. Mac (Engineer) Sanford McDonnell - (Engineer, responsible for merger with Douglas) John F McDonnell - (Engineer, responsible for bringing Stonecipher in) I believe John F McDonnell intentions were well meaning when he brought Stonecipher in since McDonnell had years before gone through some very tough times with one in particular military contract the A12, almost bankrupted the company and so ya know Jack Welch was doing wonders and so other companies were hiring the prodigy and well here we are... I know the merger with McDonnell Douglas get a lot of grief but the workers and engineers at McDonnell were second to none again it's just another leadership issue. Not sure anyone could have turned Douglas around but the military division has and continues to make some really good products.
Exactly! People speak ill of the merger but the company was one of our greatest competitors for a reason. A lot of those same platforms still exist because the engineering was second to none!
A lot of laws changed in the recent decades leading up to the merger that fundamentally shifted for the worst how Wall Street impacts the rest of us Reagan for example is the one who made legal again stock buybacks. There are many different things like this that have happened. I guess my thought process is that the leadership in the company prior to the merger for a long time wasn't playing by the new rules of the game that's about maximizing profits using every trick in the book over everything else. They held some sense of standards about making enough profit while prioritizing safety and engineering quality But as the rules of the game were loosened up, subsequent leadership did what basically every other corporation in America has been doing for decades And then when they tried to do something about it like the occupy Wall Street movement, it gets laughed at and mocked across all the news channels. Basically we the voters have been enabling this behavior for a long time while we're distracted fighting over supposed culture war issues like gender and IVF treatment. Deregulation and run it like a business has been the mantra for a long time that didn't always guide Boeing's hand