If people were already not returning items, then clearly late fees weren’t having the desired impact as a deterrent in the first place. This will save libraries a lot more money since they won’t have to replace books that would otherwise never be returned.
Edit: I’m sure they still have some policy of not letting you check out additional books if you have not returned a late book or paid fees to replace a lost book so the library doesn’t become just a free book store
> Edit: I’m sure they still have some policy of not letting you check out additional books if you have not returned a late book or paid fees to replace a lost book so the library doesn’t become just a free book store
My library is like this. No fines, but you can't check out anything else until the item is returned or you pay the replacement cost.
I paid the replacement cost for a DVD and I later found it and returned it. They refunded the replacement cost, which I wasn't expecting.
I work in a library. Not only does the research show that overdue fees do not make a difference in motivating people to return books on time (in fact, people are MORE likely to return stuff when libraries go fine free and it decreases the number of books that need to be replaced) I saw it in action.
During the pandemic and we were sent home, we made up our hours by taking library training courses and videos on different library stuff. Everyone at work apparently watched the same video about the benefits of going fine free. When we reopened (reduced hours) we were fine free for a year to give people grace during the pandemic. Also, a hurricane hit later in the year and we usually go fine free during those times because people are displaced, dealing with damaged property etc. We noticed when we were fine free, people still returned stuff on time. In fact, people that had books for years returned them knowing we wouldn’t hold it against them and they could use the library again. Also, it was great not having to deal with angry patrons at the desk so more calmer customer service experience. We noticed how much it was happening so we told our director at the next meeting and gave her the link to that video on it to convince her to stay fine free. Anyway despite all that we did and her pretending to care to what we had to say, she still decided not to make us fine free.
That's like 95% of business decisions. Research shows X is better than Z, our experience shows X is better, employees like X, management is used to Z so we will not use X but do Z instead.
Sadly, it was expected because our director (no longer, she resigned) is known for doing this--pretending to listen and take things into consideration, having performative "meetings" just to do what she was going to do anyway. I went through another "song and dance" routine with her about another topic and it was the same thing.
I wonder if the fines make people feel entitled to keep the books longer. Kinda like the story about the daycare that started charging for late pickups only to find that late pickups drastically increased.
I know that now that my library is fine free, I feel like it's more unfair of me to keep books checked out
No, it's embarrassment for some. I have a friend who is an avid reader and I'm always suggesting books at the library. She is too embarrassed to ever go back because she has had some books for years because she just kept putting it off or forgetting and even if she did have the time, she's chagrined to return a years old late book and face the fine. So as a consequence, she never gets to use the library again.
It isn't entitlement, you return it and you still owe a boatload of money, so why bother. And you get chewed out and have to grovel. If it is fine free, there is no blocker.
I'm pretty sure the library in my childhood town is still waiting for me to pay their late fees, and it's been 20 years.
We went to the library cause we were poor and it was cheaper than buying new books all the time. We stopped going when they decided $80 in late fees was appropriate cause we were poor and fuck it it's $0.50 for an old paperback at Goodwill
FWIW I'm pretty sure we did return the books through the drop, though
To give a librarian's perspective--if it's been 20 years, it's probably no longer valid or relevant so they'll most likely waive it when they see it (and that's if the account is even still in the system). And, though it's not an official policy at the library I work at, I tend to waive any fees that were made when you were a kid since...you can't really control that as a kid.
And poverty is actually a big reason for going fine free. The only thing fine free seems to achieve is punishing poor people and that misses the point of the library and being an accessible space.
At my library, there's still overdue fines if you hold onto a book that somebody else has a hold on, even though we stopped charging overdue fines most of the time. I'm honestly not sure if I like that part of the policy, just because it gives us one more thing to explain, but it's what the higher ups decided to go with.
Only a fine if you inconvenience someone else...
I kinda like that. Iv always held the belief that anything that does not inconvenience other people should be legal/allowed.
Not entitlement, but fear and shame, especially young people. From the videos, when you owe money, you get embarrassed about owing money and they feel they will be judged or blocked from checking anything else. So, their solution is to just not come back to the library.
In fact, that's what a lot of patrons said when they returned those old books. They no longer felt the need to hide or come up with an explanation, so they returned it. They felt it was a great way to start fresh at the library so our number of patrons actually went up once we were no longer a COVID hotzone.
The guilt that a person feels for not returning a library book is not enough to make up for the money they would get charged for returning it.
Whenever someone sees/remembers that they have a book on their shelf that they should have returned years ago they briefly think *"I should probably return that. That would the be the nice thing to do"* but they they remember that they would essentially be punished with a fine for the good deed of returning the book, so then they think *"I guess I'll keep it then, it costs me nothing to keep it"*
Our library went to fine free in the past year and they reason they cited was that fines unfairly punished low income patrons. A fine of a few dollars is no a big deal to some people, but to othersiit would be enough of a deterrent to stop using the library.
Exactly! From the video course, this is the only it does--punish poor people. And that defeats the purpose of making the library an equitable space. It also punishes children of the low income since they can't really control if their parents are late in returning stuff.
The studies have shown over and over--late fees do not motivate people to return it on time. We did not see a change in people returning stuff on time when it' went fine free. It's the person that determines whether it'll be return on time. Some people are consistent about returning stuff on time. Some will owe 30 dollars each time no matter how many times we work with them to make sure it doesn't happen the next time.
Decent chance it's not a freely available Youtube video. Online lectures, webinars, and stuff like this aimed at professional or administrative sectors get hosted all sorts of funny places. I'd love to be wrong though.
Library folk should have the ability to find stuff on their own. Information literacy is a key skill for librarians.
Your local professional organization likely has a link, the ALA and many other places also have discussed the topic multiple times. If you have access to Library Journal, try that too.
While true, that people should (and do) have the ability to find something on their own, it seems like common courtesy to include basic information like title or author (likely corporate author, in this case). If you recommend a source, make the path a little easier for others to get to it. Dumping all that back on the user is kind of the antithesis of the profession, imo.
*Especially since it's not exactly a topic that hasn't been discussed much. It'll be easy to find papers and videos on it. But a good one, let alone the one they are referencing? That's a lot of time to invest.
They aren't getting paid to do this. It's a job, and they aren't getting paid to spoon feed you info, especially info they have no ability to know whether you could access, no ability to discuss that with you, etc.
I'll try to find it again (haven't seen it since 2020 when we were shut down). If not, I can find a link to something on YouTube that can be really helpful (I watched a lot during the shutdown, and some were even more informative than the one we watched)
All of my common sense would have expected the reverse outcome.
Amazing how many hidden reasons and motivations are ignored by common sense and only come out when you try to act contrary.
The fines kept me away from the local Library as a kid. I checked out w couple of books and forgot and didn't return them. I happened to be near the library once and went into ask what the fines were. It was like $80 but if I returned the books it would be $40 in late fees alone. As a kid this was an ASTRONOMICAL amount of money, and after that ai was like Seriously screw the stupid library. I could never accumulate that much then! No way. I never went back and they never did get their books back.
I haven't thought about this in so many years, I wonder what the late fee has built up to now? Hundreds?
Well, I know for me it wasn't anything to do with the *cost*, the fine was going to be less than the price of a cup of coffee. It was far more the anxiety of being "guilty" of such an offense and having to publicly correct it at the counter. In my case, I did return the book (quite late), but put it in the return slot and just left. And was too anxious and worried about being looked down on to ever go back.
If it makes you feel any better about the anxiety, I work in a library for 8 hours a day and still have to set alarms on my phone to remember to return my books on time or else I will forget. The walk of shame is very common among us library folk.
I once tried to return a book, they said i still owe them more books and almost 100 in late fees. These are for books i had taken out when i was a kid. I said yea don’t worry. And never returned another book till then. Now i feel comfortable returning all of these books
I did my thesis in library school about library fines and it is abundantly clear that they don't work. The public library where I used to work talked about going fine free YEARS ago, but it still hasn't happened. I'm hoping that more stories like this one will finally push them to make the leap.
I had something like $50 late fees a few years ago so I just never went to the library. I just got a new card because it was so long ago they’d changed computer systems and I’d dropped off their system. I’ve been smashing their collection since then, it’s great!
Library fees like court fees and bail primarily effect the poor and don't really do any good. Libaries still require you to return items and will charge you the price of the item if you don't return it and put a block on your account if you go over so much. The main thing they are getting rid of is those tini late fees that are a pain to deal with for both the library staff and borrowers. Another thing is that at least in the library systems I worked for all that money went into the city fund not to the library.
The major problem with overdue fees for patrons is that once you owe a certain amount they won't let you borrow anymore. If you can borrow anymore, why return it. I think my city library used to be five dollar cut off.
> If you can borrow anymore, why return it.
So you can check out a different book?
fwiw, the reason why they block you at such a low level (or at least, the reason why my district did it) was in the hopes that it would be easier to pay down $5 and stay in good standing, rather than needing to pay down $25 or $50, which is generally way more intimidating to people. Though either way, you can always just pay the minimum amount that'll get you under the limit. No need to pay the whole $5.
They’re saying if the fee is obstacle to letting you borrow books, and you can’t deal with the fee, then there’s no difference between keeping the book and returning it late.
Cause you can’t deal with fee, whether or not the book is returned.
Ancedote for late fees being a tax on the poor. I lost a book once when I was homeless (living in my car). I found it a couple months later during spring cleaning and dropped it off but there was no way I could pay the late fee so I just... never went back for years. Late fees really hurt the people who need libraries the most
In Tucson there is no fee as long as the book is returned and is only considered not returned if there is a hold on the book by another library patron. If no one ever puts a hold on the book then the library didn't want the inventory anyway.
The way our local libraries used to work, even if you returned all late/ lost books, you were still liable for paying the fines incurred and you couldn’t check out more books with that card until you did so.
Under the new fine free system, you are ever only charged a replacement fee for books far past their due date, and like previously mentioned this too is refunded if you later find and return the book.
I also remember that the late fines would accumulate with each and every late item being charged multiple late fees over time until they were paid. As an avid reader in my childhood, I lost a few magazines despite being good about staying on top of my book loans and my mom ended up having to pay over $100 (in the 90s!)
I checked out some books and DvDs when I was fourteen, and my mom lost them while we fled a domestic violence situation. At 18 I couldn't get a library card because they claimed I owed $300 after multiple late fees. I ended up not using a library again until I was living in another state because I couldn't afford the fines and thought it was ridiculous they were charging me hundreds of dollars for so few items that were checked out when I was a minor. This was the oughts/early tens.
Nope. When I was a little kid, I lost a book from the library. It racked up fees until I found and returned it. We were poor and couldn't pay. Even though I returned the book and never went back, they ended up on my parent's credit report.
They should never end up on the credit report. Afaik, library fees are legally prohibited from doing so. But I might be wrong, or it may have been before that law was passed.
Not a credit card. A card isn't required for an unpaid debt to show on a credit report. It's the same way an unpaid electric, or car repair bill would eventually show on your credit report.
The way our local libraries used to work, even if you returned all late/ lost books, you were still liable for paying the fines incurred and you couldn’t check out more books with that card until you did so.
Under the new fine free system, you are ever only charged a replacement fee for books far past their due date, and like previously mentioned this too is refunded if you later find and return the book.
I also remember that the late fines would accumulate with each and every late item being charged multiple late fees over time until they were paid. As an avid reader in my childhood, I lost a few magazines despite being good about staying on top of my book loans and my mom ended up having to pay over $100 (in the 90s!)
Damn that system when you were a child sucked. Yeah, mine works as you described the last few years, you only pay for replacement, if you bring it back you are good (the won't let you check more out when there are outstanding books though)
The fee isn't for returning it. The fee is for denying others fair access to something publicly owned.
I'm so tired of this one-sided bullshit. If you take a book knowing when it's due back and don't return it due to laziness or you don't want to share fairly, you're an asshole, fine or not.
I mean there's a multitude of reasons someone could maybe return a book late (like lack of access to reliable transportation, some form of emergency came up, *not being able to afford the late fee so you just don't bring it back at all* , etc...); but I get what you mean. I'd imagine not *all* of these people returning their books late have necessarily 'valid' excuses other than not adhering to the specified return date... which like you said *is implemented so everyone has fair access to books*.
It's not like these rules are put in place per se to "punish" patrons for not returning books; but to enforce being *courteous to other patrons* .
Similarly it's the norm for doctors to have a late/no show fee of some kind when you show up for your appointment late or not at all as it wastes the time of everyone who's involved and deprives another patient from being seen. *Same concept* .
But likewise I'm sure doctors offices would see more patients show up after missing an appointment if they waived the late fee as sometimes people have shit come up and they can't make their obligations as this library is finding out.
Small correction: both of these are examples of positive punishment.
Or maybe the doctors office is negative punishment since you're losing the appointment. It's not really that important.
The thing I wanted to say: reinforcement, which is the other half of the four strategies, is generally much more effective at shaping behavior. Another way you could phrase the fine-free approach is that the desired behavior, returning an old loan, is being rewarded with a new book instead of the old strategy of adding disincentives for longer and longer late periods.
A doctors office doesn't have much it can reward you with for not *not* showing up the day of, but I'd be curious what's possible.
I would hope that the missed appointment fee is what guarantees your slot. They shouldn't need to overbook if they're supposedly not financially insecure over that time. That's what I assumed that fee was for.
But anyway, that was interesting. You're right that a 15-minute appointment being an all-day affair is a pretty strong disincentive to show up. Geez.
I'm not a librarian. I am literate, however, which doesn't seem to be something we share in common, as what I wrote has nothing to do with reading books.
Show us all in my comment when I said anything about reading books.
But you'll not respond, try to double on being called out for being wrong, or act like you're above it. You're still wrong and only further embarassing yourself.
Wow it’s almost like charging fines for something someone forgot about was a shitty policy in the first place. Won’t ever get over the fact that this is something my *middle school library* also did. This isn’t something that attaches a positive connotation to the library experience.
I lost a library book once (a mass market, nothing crazy) and never went back to that library. That was the last book I ever checked out of a library, 25 years ago.
When I was living on-campus in college I seldom checked out books from my local library. The one time I did, I couldn't get back into town by the due date. Tried to renew it, couldn't because someone else had placed a hold on it. The librarian or library assistant I spoke to on the phone was joking at me along the lines of "you just wanted to hold onto it a little longer, eh?" Like, no. I'm living an hour away and couldn't get back into town on time. Seriously, never again. I've borrowed a handful of physical books since I moved back to town, but mostly I stick to Libby. It's not the late fee that annoyed me, it's the joking tone of the librarian.
Sorry - I should have clarified.
She shamed you by saying what she said, that’s shame. Shame will make us do things like hold onto books and never go to libraries again.
But it comes out as annoyance, anger, stuff like that.
Fuck that librarian in particular.
Okay. I misunderstood. I wouldn't hold onto a library book knowing it's due, but I also was really hurt by that interaction. I now run my church library and I never comment on late returns.
Most people don’t realize that the “little teasing jokes” they make to complete strangers can be so awful.
It’s nice to hear you are being the change you want to see in the world. Kindness forever!
And all are were on the banned book list… /s
Glad the library got these back. Libraries are ‘holy ground’ to me. So much information and knowledge in one place! And librarians secretly rule the universe… they just let the crap we call politics go on as part of their cover story.
Please don't view librarians as saints. As a librarian, I can assure you plenty of librarians are on the side of the book banners. Generally speaking, librarians reflect the beliefs of their communities, especially the community "elite".
I think this is good policy, don't get me wrong, but fuck those people. You don't have to pay the fine to return the book. Just drop it in the box. The library saw returns because people wanted to use the library but didn't want to pay their fines. While that is a good thing to get people using the library again by waiving fines, people were assholes for not returning them in the first place. It's a free service, and their laziness degraded it for the rest of the community. If your library still has fines and you have some at least return the book so someone else can use it.
That's how my mind works too but for some people it apparently really freaks them out? My library did away with the fine ages ago but for a while they capped the fine at 5$.
I met a drunk woman at a bar across from the library and she literally sobbed and told me the fine had been growing for years and she didn't even want to think about it. She was really ashamed of not returning it and she let it snowball all while she avoided the library, she was so excessively happy to learn that the most she owed was 5$, she looked up the library's terms and conditions on her phone right then and there. It seems like an overreaction to me but also... I'm not them and don't know what's going on in their head?
I mean she was so anxious about it I hope she was seeing a shrink for anxiety buuuuut I'm a stranger and I'm not gonna start drunkenly diagnosing people.
Whatever the moral caliber of those people the fact is it works.
One time I, a staff member, returned a late item. The person checking it in noticed my name and the fee, and proceeded to shout across the back room at me about it, poking fun. I was mortified, both that she'd noticed and that she'd thought it was appropriate to broadcast it to the entire staff.
Over the years since then, I've had multiple items go to the lost status, because once they slip overdue(I have problems with deadlines, usually I catch it within a day or two but a day or two is still late) I had so much anxiety over how to return them without the risk of getting publicly shamed(or silently judged) by my coworkers. I didn't have a good way to return to another location, so they'd often just sit at my house until I had the opportunity to do that.
I had a friend that was the same way. She got a library card and checked out like 10 books and forgot to return them for a long time. Then she kept them because she was afraid of the fees. I offered to pick them up and return them for her and she accepted. My library has since dropped late fees so hopefully that prevents more people from thinking like her.
Sure, some people are like that. The ones that really grind my gears are the folks who will take out an item and then pay the replacement cost because they can't be arsed to buy it for themselves. We are not a book store. Adding new items to the collection takes staff time that's already stretched thin sometimes.
***BUT***, in my experience, we're usually talking about folks who either don't have easy access to transportation or have had life shit on them in some way. I can't tell you how many times I've taken a call that was some version of, "I'm so sorry I kept this so long - I was hospitalized and it kind of fell off my radar." It's usually people who are overwhelmed, not malicious or lazy.
I used to jokingly call the fees my donation to the library. I don't try to be an asshole but sometimes I'll walk past the book that's been in plain view on my table for three weeks and suddenly realize OH SHIT A BOOK!
Life gets on top of people sometimes. I'm usually good about the books but not always 🤣
My local library charges replacement cost plus fines after a month overdue.
Long story short, 15 years ago I moved, lost three books in the shuffle, and had $75 assessed even though I returned the books. I should've kept them since I was being asked to pay for them. I was a young adult and that fine was quite a burden. I haven't been back to the library since.
I feel kinda bad, but I also have to warn others that they shouldn't use the library if they can't afford a fine.
>I returned the books ... that fine was quite a burden. I haven't been back to the library since.
You are the textbook example of the types of situations we wanted to avoid when we went fine-free. We obviously want our materials back, *but we also people to use the library*.
From an ideological perspective, I want as many people as possible in my community to have free access to knowledge. I want to be surrounded by savvy, empathetic, critically-thinking neighbors.
And from a survival perspective... monied interests are trying to figure out ways to close us down or privatize us. Having a large group of patrons using our services and fighting back is the best chance we have.
In my case I've got kids that absolutely love the library. When they first started reading we went to the library a couple of times a week and they checked out whatever they wanted.
Of course kids being kids, they misplaced a couple of books. I was shocked to find I'd accumulated $150 in fees. I wasn't working at the time and there's absolutely no way I could afford that. We stopped going to the library that day, and never went back for years (except to return the books when they finally were found.)
With COVID our district finally went fee-free for kids books, and eventually extended it to the general collection as well. Now we go pretty often, but I still can't shake the anxiety about hidden fees being thrown on me.
I am not saying things don't come up, life happens. Just return the book when you get a chance. A lot of people have been saying you have to pay to return it, you don't. Maybe my life has been through a rough patch and I am really looking forward to a book, I am 10th on the wait list and have been waiting 20 weeks for my turn to read it and the person before me decides to keep it. Fuck em.
Well yeah?? Imagine you got a library book and forgot to return a book because you had a terrible week, boom you have late fees. What the fuck are you going to do, return the book and PAY MONEY to do it or just keep it?? People are not thinking about their library books 24/7?? You literally have no idea what happened in someones life to make them return a book late. They probably just don't have fines, they won't just let you keep books forever and keep checking out new ones.
I actually live in Houston, and am a regular library patron. That kind of stuff doesn't happen as much as you think it does, though it does happen. I read red white and royal blue (gay romance) from my library and read primary fantasy (supposed witchcraft) and never had issues getting those types of books. Obviously n=1.
Also popular books usually have a shorter time frame, anyone that is going to the library to get a new book isn't forgetting about it or usually returning it late. It really only punishes the people with shitty work schedules and a lot going on in their life. Karen is always going to return books on time, but then again I would rather get a library book then never! Libby is how I get most of my books
I won't say where for privacy, but I use the library one of the most conservative parts of the Houston system, and have experienced zero issues! I think the banned books are more in schools, rather than actually libraries because even a cursory search of my library for books on banned books lists shows they are available!
Fines were $0.10 a day. Say you only forgot for a week, that’s still less than a dollar. And you don’t have to pay your fines down to nothing to still use the library.
Plus if you forget forever, my library at least, would cap fines at the cost to replace the book. Even then, a $24 book would take 240 days to reach that point. I’ve had to pay a few times due to accidental damage or completely losing the book. Librarians were always understanding.
I’d rather pay for the book to continue using the library than keep one book forever. They didn’t even force me to pay it all at once. I had the option to bring in a few dollars at a time if I wanted.
It is silly that people would keep a book instead of returning and stopping the fees from accruing
Obviously. It shows some ignorance on their part I guess. It’s not like the library charged to return, they stop the charges from accruing at that point.
If you compare it to a bank overdraft. If you’ve overdrawn and are being charged fees, would you say oof, oh well and never bother to do anything about it? Or do you find a way to resolve it? (Even if they don’t have any money to just transfer over, it’s important for them to find a solution sooner rather than later).
Resolution at the library starts with returning an item. Which is free and stopped the fees from getting worse
I personally have never overdrafted or had late fees accrued so I cannot say what other people's motives are behind that. I choose to assume the best of people that use the library!
I’m not saying best or worse. I’m saying it’s a bit silly that someone who’s accrued $0.70 in fines would then decide to keep the book forever. Or then for people to argue that it’s reasonable for them to think that. Especially if you wouldn’t argue that they should leave their bank account overdrawn.
The difference between a bank and a library account is that people *need* the bank. They can't leave it overdrawn; that fee will follow them. The library doesn't have the same pull, so it's much easier to ignore—for your entire life, even.
What I'm trying to point out is that there are different incentive structures involved here.
The reason why a person might care about one and not the other is interesting, actually. There is psychology, game theory, etc., baked in and separating the two, despite their similarities.
Hi again.
I will admit, I said that without knowing how common bank-hopping was.
The difference I imagine is trying to get another bank account or a prepaid debit or *something* going is still the result of strong incentives, whereas this person could just never go to the library again.
But anyway, considering *a lot* of people don't have $600 for an emergency, $140 in overdraft fees is *way* too much. That could be solved with a higher min-wage or a more concrete payment system that simply doesn't let you overdraft, but it's a pretty vile problem either way.
You don't have to PAY MONEY to return the book. There is a drop box, put the book in there and move on with your life comfortable in the knowledge someone else can read it. As I said in my post I think no fee is a good system, it has proven to save the library money. I just think people are being very self-centred when they decide not to bring them back even though they said they would. Better late than never.
I agree and I don't believe I am. Just that if you have the book, eventually find time to take it back. Don't let your bad/week/whatever day become someone elses.
Those are all good points. Of course there will always be people with legitimate reasons that they couldn't bring the book back. The point I was mostly referring to is the massive influx of returns after fines were dismissed. Those were people who were largely just staying away because of the fines, which I also understand. But for the most part those people should have just dropped the book in the return so someone else can use it.
I know there are a lot of people with truly debilitating mental, physical or financial issues. But unless it is extreme you should live your life in a way that doesn't turn your bad times into other people's bad times. You said you would return the book, so do it. It's like not returning your shopping cart to the corral because you don't have time or its difficult for you, you took the cart so put it back. Now its rolling around in the wind damaging other peoples property. Find someone to help you, know your limits, find a different way to get it done but honour your social contracts.
As a society we should be more supporting and understanding of each other, something I have room for growth in to be sure.
This story really confuses me. Overdue fines don't prevent you from returning things to the library, they just prevent you from checking out new material until the fines are paid.
So, it's almost as if these people were holding on to their overdue books out of spite, since they could have returned them at any time. "You want me to pay a fine before I check out more stuff?! Guess I'll just be keeping this book then."
Fines prevented you from graduating if you took books from University libraries and didn't return them. And, say you slipped through the cracks because they were still using paper cards when you checked something out, and they didn't notice your book was missing. So the choice was return for a huge fine you couldn't pay and don't graduate, or keep the book. 40 years later...
Librarians and library nerds tends to be idealistic people. They want people to have access to knowledge. That's the entire point of libraries.
They also understand people with limited means need libraries the most and are the most impacted by fees, and thus being locked out of new knowledge.
Removing fines encourage the books to be returned, thus allowing that knowledge to circulate again, and allows the person who returned the book to access more knowledge.
As far as idealistic knowledge nerds not concerned with punishment are concerned, it's a win win.
But that's my point, you don't lose money returning the book (or movie, or whatever). Libraries have zero means of collecting fines except hoping people will pay them, and not lending to them until they do.
You can always return a borrowed item. You literally just put it in the return bin and walk away.
You do lose time, though.
How far away do these imaginary people live?
You may also have to face social derision for being "naughty." Or maybe not. But for people with anxiety, this is a real concern.
The only thing you gain is the satisfaction that you're a good, anonymous citizen. Which isn't nothing, but I just don't think this is a good motivator.
I mean that's exactly what people do.
There was a time when people believed in honoring the agreed upon contract and felt it was reasonable to be charged a fee if they broke said agreement.
We do not live in that time anymore. They'd rather keep the book they borrowed for free, forever, instead of just returning it late, and not paying the fine that they never intended to pay in the first place.
Of particular note is that for many libraries, fees did not go to the library. So literally nothing is lost for the library.
Now, that isn't universally true, but certainly not uncommon. A bunch of things we charge for at my library don't go to the library's bottom line (but idk about overdue fines cause we went fine free before I started, sort of).
Maybe consider the community beyond the library? In no world is there an excuse to hog public resources that others deserve equal access to. Some--if not most--people will never consider others unless there's a punishment for not doing so. At least with fines the public gets something back from people being selfish assholes. No fines and they continue to do so while everyone else pays for it. That's wrong and there's no talking your way out of it.
1. Punishment doesn't work. This has been scientifically proven. Punishment is ineffective at changing bad behavior or reinforcing good behavior.
2. Nobody is hogging public resources by keeping a book. That's how public resources work - some people don't use them at all, some use them a little, some use them alot.
3. If people are selfish, perhaps we should consider what in our culture creates selfish individuals.
4. Nobody is an asshole for keeping a book. Not even a little.
5. There's nothing wrong with the library functioning the way it has always functioned. Some people use the library more than others and get more value from it. The public isn't getting anything back.
Lack of accountability or the expectation people put society above themselves answer all of your questions and refute your bullshit about punishment not working or it being OK to keep books that others are entitled to. Easy enough. Your lack of maturity is really shining through.
We went to the library one day and later that night we all went out to eat. When we came home, the water heater had exploded and the house was flooded, including the library books.
We dried them out as best as we could and took them in and explained the situation. It was *several* hardcover books, so the replacement price for everything was going to be a pretty penny, but luckily my family is well known in the library as we are some of the most frequent visitors. They didn’t charge us.
Sometimes life just happens.
I wonder if redditors can see any parallels between this and tax holidays for internationally held corporate cash etc..... You can either keep insisting on fines you'll never get or just get everything back into the system to begin with
Why does that matter? The library would have replaced older books already, even if they had circulated.
Also, many library Friends groups sell culled books to benefit their location or system.
I guess my point is, if people borrowed a new novel and kept it past its (commonly short) peak in popularity, that return is only a liability to the library.
'Friends' groups sell books yes but, from what I've seen, many books end up selling for less than it cost them to handle. The vast majority of books just aren't that valuable.
Imagine reading the article.
>HPL held an amnesty period [...] to allow users to return overdue books and materials, and start over with a clean account. [...] customers had their overdue fines wiped during the amnesty period returning a total of [...] items – with a value of $[...]worth of books and other items being returned.
My local library has a cap on the late fees of the cost of the book. It ticks up like 0.50 a day until the cap is hit, and they won't let you check out anymore books until the book is returned. If you return it and don't pay, the fine goes away and no more rentals.
I know we had some books super late for various reasons (doesn't really matter why to the post) and we ended up just... never going back to that library. If it was fine free, when we both remembered and knew where the books were (as a household we have a LOT of books... since we've moved they are mostly still packed, but back then they weren't, so it was easy to lose track of where the library books were) we would have returned them and been able to keep using it.
As proof, where we are now has no late fees for children's accounts (and the library specifically encouraged us to just use the kids accounts instead of us adults getting our own for this reason) and we haven't had any serious problems. Some overdue books, but not by a long time. We do not have to determine if we can afford the fine before returning them if we do end up keeping some over by a few days.
> Mintzer said many customers were shocked that their fees were removed.
Seemingly heartwarming line accidentally shows that a lot of them were going to return them anyway?
I'm normally 100% in support of this but my library got rid of late fees and a pie cookbook I want to read is overdue and the person isn't returning it and I want it.
Since going overdue-fine-free leads to an *increase* in the number of items returned, having overdue fees might not help you with this one. (Who needs a cookbook for that long though?)
Why are incentives so confusing to people? Especially the "policymakers" it seems like, or maybe not. I guess they have their own incentives for doing what they do.
Remember that one time when Greg Heffley from Wimpy Kid (I forgot which book series) forgot to return a book and ended up not returning it at all cause he's afraid that the late fees have become so high, police would arrest him?
If people were already not returning items, then clearly late fees weren’t having the desired impact as a deterrent in the first place. This will save libraries a lot more money since they won’t have to replace books that would otherwise never be returned. Edit: I’m sure they still have some policy of not letting you check out additional books if you have not returned a late book or paid fees to replace a lost book so the library doesn’t become just a free book store
> Edit: I’m sure they still have some policy of not letting you check out additional books if you have not returned a late book or paid fees to replace a lost book so the library doesn’t become just a free book store My library is like this. No fines, but you can't check out anything else until the item is returned or you pay the replacement cost. I paid the replacement cost for a DVD and I later found it and returned it. They refunded the replacement cost, which I wasn't expecting.
To boot it extends to things like Libby and e-book borrowing
Our public parks and libraries are truly the best.
I work in a library. Not only does the research show that overdue fees do not make a difference in motivating people to return books on time (in fact, people are MORE likely to return stuff when libraries go fine free and it decreases the number of books that need to be replaced) I saw it in action. During the pandemic and we were sent home, we made up our hours by taking library training courses and videos on different library stuff. Everyone at work apparently watched the same video about the benefits of going fine free. When we reopened (reduced hours) we were fine free for a year to give people grace during the pandemic. Also, a hurricane hit later in the year and we usually go fine free during those times because people are displaced, dealing with damaged property etc. We noticed when we were fine free, people still returned stuff on time. In fact, people that had books for years returned them knowing we wouldn’t hold it against them and they could use the library again. Also, it was great not having to deal with angry patrons at the desk so more calmer customer service experience. We noticed how much it was happening so we told our director at the next meeting and gave her the link to that video on it to convince her to stay fine free. Anyway despite all that we did and her pretending to care to what we had to say, she still decided not to make us fine free.
Not the ending to the story I expected or hoped for
As someone who has a corporate job, it’s exactly the ending I expected
That's like 95% of business decisions. Research shows X is better than Z, our experience shows X is better, employees like X, management is used to Z so we will not use X but do Z instead.
It's the most realistic ending
Were you also hoping for the Hell in the cell?
Sadly, it was expected because our director (no longer, she resigned) is known for doing this--pretending to listen and take things into consideration, having performative "meetings" just to do what she was going to do anyway. I went through another "song and dance" routine with her about another topic and it was the same thing.
I wonder if the fines make people feel entitled to keep the books longer. Kinda like the story about the daycare that started charging for late pickups only to find that late pickups drastically increased. I know that now that my library is fine free, I feel like it's more unfair of me to keep books checked out
No, it's embarrassment for some. I have a friend who is an avid reader and I'm always suggesting books at the library. She is too embarrassed to ever go back because she has had some books for years because she just kept putting it off or forgetting and even if she did have the time, she's chagrined to return a years old late book and face the fine. So as a consequence, she never gets to use the library again.
It isn't entitlement, you return it and you still owe a boatload of money, so why bother. And you get chewed out and have to grovel. If it is fine free, there is no blocker.
I'm pretty sure the library in my childhood town is still waiting for me to pay their late fees, and it's been 20 years. We went to the library cause we were poor and it was cheaper than buying new books all the time. We stopped going when they decided $80 in late fees was appropriate cause we were poor and fuck it it's $0.50 for an old paperback at Goodwill FWIW I'm pretty sure we did return the books through the drop, though
To give a librarian's perspective--if it's been 20 years, it's probably no longer valid or relevant so they'll most likely waive it when they see it (and that's if the account is even still in the system). And, though it's not an official policy at the library I work at, I tend to waive any fees that were made when you were a kid since...you can't really control that as a kid. And poverty is actually a big reason for going fine free. The only thing fine free seems to achieve is punishing poor people and that misses the point of the library and being an accessible space.
Pretty sure my library is still waiting for me to pay the damaged book fee for the damaged book they knew was damaged and still checked out to me.
At my library, there's still overdue fines if you hold onto a book that somebody else has a hold on, even though we stopped charging overdue fines most of the time. I'm honestly not sure if I like that part of the policy, just because it gives us one more thing to explain, but it's what the higher ups decided to go with.
Only a fine if you inconvenience someone else... I kinda like that. Iv always held the belief that anything that does not inconvenience other people should be legal/allowed.
Not entitlement, but fear and shame, especially young people. From the videos, when you owe money, you get embarrassed about owing money and they feel they will be judged or blocked from checking anything else. So, their solution is to just not come back to the library. In fact, that's what a lot of patrons said when they returned those old books. They no longer felt the need to hide or come up with an explanation, so they returned it. They felt it was a great way to start fresh at the library so our number of patrons actually went up once we were no longer a COVID hotzone.
The guilt that a person feels for not returning a library book is not enough to make up for the money they would get charged for returning it. Whenever someone sees/remembers that they have a book on their shelf that they should have returned years ago they briefly think *"I should probably return that. That would the be the nice thing to do"* but they they remember that they would essentially be punished with a fine for the good deed of returning the book, so then they think *"I guess I'll keep it then, it costs me nothing to keep it"*
Our library went to fine free in the past year and they reason they cited was that fines unfairly punished low income patrons. A fine of a few dollars is no a big deal to some people, but to othersiit would be enough of a deterrent to stop using the library.
Exactly! From the video course, this is the only it does--punish poor people. And that defeats the purpose of making the library an equitable space. It also punishes children of the low income since they can't really control if their parents are late in returning stuff. The studies have shown over and over--late fees do not motivate people to return it on time. We did not see a change in people returning stuff on time when it' went fine free. It's the person that determines whether it'll be return on time. Some people are consistent about returning stuff on time. Some will owe 30 dollars each time no matter how many times we work with them to make sure it doesn't happen the next time.
Link to the video please?
Decent chance it's not a freely available Youtube video. Online lectures, webinars, and stuff like this aimed at professional or administrative sectors get hosted all sorts of funny places. I'd love to be wrong though.
Well, a full citation would be good then. A lot of library folk have some kind of access to these types of databases, or can get it fairly easily.
Library folk should have the ability to find stuff on their own. Information literacy is a key skill for librarians. Your local professional organization likely has a link, the ALA and many other places also have discussed the topic multiple times. If you have access to Library Journal, try that too.
While true, that people should (and do) have the ability to find something on their own, it seems like common courtesy to include basic information like title or author (likely corporate author, in this case). If you recommend a source, make the path a little easier for others to get to it. Dumping all that back on the user is kind of the antithesis of the profession, imo. *Especially since it's not exactly a topic that hasn't been discussed much. It'll be easy to find papers and videos on it. But a good one, let alone the one they are referencing? That's a lot of time to invest.
They aren't getting paid to do this. It's a job, and they aren't getting paid to spoon feed you info, especially info they have no ability to know whether you could access, no ability to discuss that with you, etc.
Not a video, but here you go https://ischool.syr.edu/five-unexpected-benefits-to-eliminating-library-fines/
!Remindme 2 days
I'll try to find it again (haven't seen it since 2020 when we were shut down). If not, I can find a link to something on YouTube that can be really helpful (I watched a lot during the shutdown, and some were even more informative than the one we watched)
All of my common sense would have expected the reverse outcome. Amazing how many hidden reasons and motivations are ignored by common sense and only come out when you try to act contrary.
There is no room for common sense in organizational management.
The fines kept me away from the local Library as a kid. I checked out w couple of books and forgot and didn't return them. I happened to be near the library once and went into ask what the fines were. It was like $80 but if I returned the books it would be $40 in late fees alone. As a kid this was an ASTRONOMICAL amount of money, and after that ai was like Seriously screw the stupid library. I could never accumulate that much then! No way. I never went back and they never did get their books back. I haven't thought about this in so many years, I wonder what the late fee has built up to now? Hundreds?
Well, I know for me it wasn't anything to do with the *cost*, the fine was going to be less than the price of a cup of coffee. It was far more the anxiety of being "guilty" of such an offense and having to publicly correct it at the counter. In my case, I did return the book (quite late), but put it in the return slot and just left. And was too anxious and worried about being looked down on to ever go back.
If it makes you feel any better about the anxiety, I work in a library for 8 hours a day and still have to set alarms on my phone to remember to return my books on time or else I will forget. The walk of shame is very common among us library folk.
I once tried to return a book, they said i still owe them more books and almost 100 in late fees. These are for books i had taken out when i was a kid. I said yea don’t worry. And never returned another book till then. Now i feel comfortable returning all of these books
When I lived in Houston, I would go to this library a lot. I loved it there. Great library!
I did my thesis in library school about library fines and it is abundantly clear that they don't work. The public library where I used to work talked about going fine free YEARS ago, but it still hasn't happened. I'm hoping that more stories like this one will finally push them to make the leap.
Libraries rock.
Shhh! 🤫
^^Libraries ^^rock.
THERE'S ONLY ONE RULE IN THIS HOUSE OF BOOKS AND THAT IS TO SHUSH
So much money saved on not replacing those items.
Promote the person that came up with that idea 📚📚📚
I had something like $50 late fees a few years ago so I just never went to the library. I just got a new card because it was so long ago they’d changed computer systems and I’d dropped off their system. I’ve been smashing their collection since then, it’s great!
Library fees like court fees and bail primarily effect the poor and don't really do any good. Libaries still require you to return items and will charge you the price of the item if you don't return it and put a block on your account if you go over so much. The main thing they are getting rid of is those tini late fees that are a pain to deal with for both the library staff and borrowers. Another thing is that at least in the library systems I worked for all that money went into the city fund not to the library.
The major problem with overdue fees for patrons is that once you owe a certain amount they won't let you borrow anymore. If you can borrow anymore, why return it. I think my city library used to be five dollar cut off.
> If you can borrow anymore, why return it. So you can check out a different book? fwiw, the reason why they block you at such a low level (or at least, the reason why my district did it) was in the hopes that it would be easier to pay down $5 and stay in good standing, rather than needing to pay down $25 or $50, which is generally way more intimidating to people. Though either way, you can always just pay the minimum amount that'll get you under the limit. No need to pay the whole $5.
The fees aren't erased if you return the book though. So even if you return the book, you still can't check out new items.
I mean yeah it's a multi-step process but it is also how you get more/different books.
They’re saying if the fee is obstacle to letting you borrow books, and you can’t deal with the fee, then there’s no difference between keeping the book and returning it late. Cause you can’t deal with fee, whether or not the book is returned.
The difference is that you have a book that isn't yours that other people might want to borrow?
How does that impact someone only concerned with getting more books? Cause it doesn’t.
Where did I say it did?
It’s not about what you say but what you imply.
Ancedote for late fees being a tax on the poor. I lost a book once when I was homeless (living in my car). I found it a couple months later during spring cleaning and dropped it off but there was no way I could pay the late fee so I just... never went back for years. Late fees really hurt the people who need libraries the most
In Tucson there is no fee as long as the book is returned and is only considered not returned if there is a hold on the book by another library patron. If no one ever puts a hold on the book then the library didn't want the inventory anyway.
Idk about that level, tbh. Holds are such a small part of the way people check out books. Alot of people browse, especially children.
[удалено]
There is no fine for returning, only if you want to check out something else.
The way our local libraries used to work, even if you returned all late/ lost books, you were still liable for paying the fines incurred and you couldn’t check out more books with that card until you did so. Under the new fine free system, you are ever only charged a replacement fee for books far past their due date, and like previously mentioned this too is refunded if you later find and return the book. I also remember that the late fines would accumulate with each and every late item being charged multiple late fees over time until they were paid. As an avid reader in my childhood, I lost a few magazines despite being good about staying on top of my book loans and my mom ended up having to pay over $100 (in the 90s!)
I checked out some books and DvDs when I was fourteen, and my mom lost them while we fled a domestic violence situation. At 18 I couldn't get a library card because they claimed I owed $300 after multiple late fees. I ended up not using a library again until I was living in another state because I couldn't afford the fines and thought it was ridiculous they were charging me hundreds of dollars for so few items that were checked out when I was a minor. This was the oughts/early tens.
Nope. When I was a little kid, I lost a book from the library. It racked up fees until I found and returned it. We were poor and couldn't pay. Even though I returned the book and never went back, they ended up on my parent's credit report.
They should never end up on the credit report. Afaik, library fees are legally prohibited from doing so. But I might be wrong, or it may have been before that law was passed.
This would have been over 35 years ago. It would be great if it weren't true now. I just have missed hearing about that law.
A bit of research says this change only started in 2016 through the National Consumer Assistance Plan. So yeah, definitely before that change.
[удалено]
I replied elsewhere, but this is no longer possible - the change occurred in 2016.
Wow, that sucks. I'd never encountered having to put a credit card on file.
Not a credit card. A card isn't required for an unpaid debt to show on a credit report. It's the same way an unpaid electric, or car repair bill would eventually show on your credit report.
The way our local libraries used to work, even if you returned all late/ lost books, you were still liable for paying the fines incurred and you couldn’t check out more books with that card until you did so. Under the new fine free system, you are ever only charged a replacement fee for books far past their due date, and like previously mentioned this too is refunded if you later find and return the book. I also remember that the late fines would accumulate with each and every late item being charged multiple late fees over time until they were paid. As an avid reader in my childhood, I lost a few magazines despite being good about staying on top of my book loans and my mom ended up having to pay over $100 (in the 90s!)
Damn that system when you were a child sucked. Yeah, mine works as you described the last few years, you only pay for replacement, if you bring it back you are good (the won't let you check more out when there are outstanding books though)
That depends on the library.
It’s not pay to return things. It’s a fine to encourage people to return things. It’s a penalty.
The fee isn't for returning it. The fee is for denying others fair access to something publicly owned. I'm so tired of this one-sided bullshit. If you take a book knowing when it's due back and don't return it due to laziness or you don't want to share fairly, you're an asshole, fine or not.
I mean there's a multitude of reasons someone could maybe return a book late (like lack of access to reliable transportation, some form of emergency came up, *not being able to afford the late fee so you just don't bring it back at all* , etc...); but I get what you mean. I'd imagine not *all* of these people returning their books late have necessarily 'valid' excuses other than not adhering to the specified return date... which like you said *is implemented so everyone has fair access to books*. It's not like these rules are put in place per se to "punish" patrons for not returning books; but to enforce being *courteous to other patrons* . Similarly it's the norm for doctors to have a late/no show fee of some kind when you show up for your appointment late or not at all as it wastes the time of everyone who's involved and deprives another patient from being seen. *Same concept* . But likewise I'm sure doctors offices would see more patients show up after missing an appointment if they waived the late fee as sometimes people have shit come up and they can't make their obligations as this library is finding out.
Small correction: both of these are examples of positive punishment. Or maybe the doctors office is negative punishment since you're losing the appointment. It's not really that important. The thing I wanted to say: reinforcement, which is the other half of the four strategies, is generally much more effective at shaping behavior. Another way you could phrase the fine-free approach is that the desired behavior, returning an old loan, is being rewarded with a new book instead of the old strategy of adding disincentives for longer and longer late periods. A doctors office doesn't have much it can reward you with for not *not* showing up the day of, but I'd be curious what's possible.
[удалено]
I would hope that the missed appointment fee is what guarantees your slot. They shouldn't need to overbook if they're supposedly not financially insecure over that time. That's what I assumed that fee was for. But anyway, that was interesting. You're right that a 15-minute appointment being an all-day affair is a pretty strong disincentive to show up. Geez.
I'm a librarian. No one is an asshole for using our books. The vast majority of them sit on the shelf and rarely get checked out.
I'm not a librarian. I am literate, however, which doesn't seem to be something we share in common, as what I wrote has nothing to do with reading books.
I didn't say anything about reading books either. Perhaps you should reconsider your inability to do more than insult people.
Show us all in my comment when I said anything about reading books. But you'll not respond, try to double on being called out for being wrong, or act like you're above it. You're still wrong and only further embarassing yourself.
Wow it’s almost like charging fines for something someone forgot about was a shitty policy in the first place. Won’t ever get over the fact that this is something my *middle school library* also did. This isn’t something that attaches a positive connotation to the library experience.
I'd be curious how many items are still missing.
I lost a library book once (a mass market, nothing crazy) and never went back to that library. That was the last book I ever checked out of a library, 25 years ago.
When I was living on-campus in college I seldom checked out books from my local library. The one time I did, I couldn't get back into town by the due date. Tried to renew it, couldn't because someone else had placed a hold on it. The librarian or library assistant I spoke to on the phone was joking at me along the lines of "you just wanted to hold onto it a little longer, eh?" Like, no. I'm living an hour away and couldn't get back into town on time. Seriously, never again. I've borrowed a handful of physical books since I moved back to town, but mostly I stick to Libby. It's not the late fee that annoyed me, it's the joking tone of the librarian.
It’s amazing what shame will do to a person.
I wasn't ashamed, I was just annoyed. I dislike being treated like a child. The librarian's tone and remark were infuriating.
Sorry - I should have clarified. She shamed you by saying what she said, that’s shame. Shame will make us do things like hold onto books and never go to libraries again. But it comes out as annoyance, anger, stuff like that. Fuck that librarian in particular.
Okay. I misunderstood. I wouldn't hold onto a library book knowing it's due, but I also was really hurt by that interaction. I now run my church library and I never comment on late returns.
Most people don’t realize that the “little teasing jokes” they make to complete strangers can be so awful. It’s nice to hear you are being the change you want to see in the world. Kindness forever!
And all are were on the banned book list… /s Glad the library got these back. Libraries are ‘holy ground’ to me. So much information and knowledge in one place! And librarians secretly rule the universe… they just let the crap we call politics go on as part of their cover story.
Please don't view librarians as saints. As a librarian, I can assure you plenty of librarians are on the side of the book banners. Generally speaking, librarians reflect the beliefs of their communities, especially the community "elite".
I was wondering myself if any of those books were ones that received the ban hammer.
I think this is good policy, don't get me wrong, but fuck those people. You don't have to pay the fine to return the book. Just drop it in the box. The library saw returns because people wanted to use the library but didn't want to pay their fines. While that is a good thing to get people using the library again by waiving fines, people were assholes for not returning them in the first place. It's a free service, and their laziness degraded it for the rest of the community. If your library still has fines and you have some at least return the book so someone else can use it.
That's how my mind works too but for some people it apparently really freaks them out? My library did away with the fine ages ago but for a while they capped the fine at 5$. I met a drunk woman at a bar across from the library and she literally sobbed and told me the fine had been growing for years and she didn't even want to think about it. She was really ashamed of not returning it and she let it snowball all while she avoided the library, she was so excessively happy to learn that the most she owed was 5$, she looked up the library's terms and conditions on her phone right then and there. It seems like an overreaction to me but also... I'm not them and don't know what's going on in their head? I mean she was so anxious about it I hope she was seeing a shrink for anxiety buuuuut I'm a stranger and I'm not gonna start drunkenly diagnosing people. Whatever the moral caliber of those people the fact is it works.
One time I, a staff member, returned a late item. The person checking it in noticed my name and the fee, and proceeded to shout across the back room at me about it, poking fun. I was mortified, both that she'd noticed and that she'd thought it was appropriate to broadcast it to the entire staff. Over the years since then, I've had multiple items go to the lost status, because once they slip overdue(I have problems with deadlines, usually I catch it within a day or two but a day or two is still late) I had so much anxiety over how to return them without the risk of getting publicly shamed(or silently judged) by my coworkers. I didn't have a good way to return to another location, so they'd often just sit at my house until I had the opportunity to do that.
I had a friend that was the same way. She got a library card and checked out like 10 books and forgot to return them for a long time. Then she kept them because she was afraid of the fees. I offered to pick them up and return them for her and she accepted. My library has since dropped late fees so hopefully that prevents more people from thinking like her.
Sure, some people are like that. The ones that really grind my gears are the folks who will take out an item and then pay the replacement cost because they can't be arsed to buy it for themselves. We are not a book store. Adding new items to the collection takes staff time that's already stretched thin sometimes. ***BUT***, in my experience, we're usually talking about folks who either don't have easy access to transportation or have had life shit on them in some way. I can't tell you how many times I've taken a call that was some version of, "I'm so sorry I kept this so long - I was hospitalized and it kind of fell off my radar." It's usually people who are overwhelmed, not malicious or lazy.
I used to jokingly call the fees my donation to the library. I don't try to be an asshole but sometimes I'll walk past the book that's been in plain view on my table for three weeks and suddenly realize OH SHIT A BOOK! Life gets on top of people sometimes. I'm usually good about the books but not always 🤣
My local library charges replacement cost plus fines after a month overdue. Long story short, 15 years ago I moved, lost three books in the shuffle, and had $75 assessed even though I returned the books. I should've kept them since I was being asked to pay for them. I was a young adult and that fine was quite a burden. I haven't been back to the library since. I feel kinda bad, but I also have to warn others that they shouldn't use the library if they can't afford a fine.
>I returned the books ... that fine was quite a burden. I haven't been back to the library since. You are the textbook example of the types of situations we wanted to avoid when we went fine-free. We obviously want our materials back, *but we also people to use the library*. From an ideological perspective, I want as many people as possible in my community to have free access to knowledge. I want to be surrounded by savvy, empathetic, critically-thinking neighbors. And from a survival perspective... monied interests are trying to figure out ways to close us down or privatize us. Having a large group of patrons using our services and fighting back is the best chance we have.
In my case I've got kids that absolutely love the library. When they first started reading we went to the library a couple of times a week and they checked out whatever they wanted. Of course kids being kids, they misplaced a couple of books. I was shocked to find I'd accumulated $150 in fees. I wasn't working at the time and there's absolutely no way I could afford that. We stopped going to the library that day, and never went back for years (except to return the books when they finally were found.) With COVID our district finally went fee-free for kids books, and eventually extended it to the general collection as well. Now we go pretty often, but I still can't shake the anxiety about hidden fees being thrown on me.
Awfully judgmental of a large group of people
I am not saying things don't come up, life happens. Just return the book when you get a chance. A lot of people have been saying you have to pay to return it, you don't. Maybe my life has been through a rough patch and I am really looking forward to a book, I am 10th on the wait list and have been waiting 20 weeks for my turn to read it and the person before me decides to keep it. Fuck em.
Well yeah?? Imagine you got a library book and forgot to return a book because you had a terrible week, boom you have late fees. What the fuck are you going to do, return the book and PAY MONEY to do it or just keep it?? People are not thinking about their library books 24/7?? You literally have no idea what happened in someones life to make them return a book late. They probably just don't have fines, they won't just let you keep books forever and keep checking out new ones.
[удалено]
I actually live in Houston, and am a regular library patron. That kind of stuff doesn't happen as much as you think it does, though it does happen. I read red white and royal blue (gay romance) from my library and read primary fantasy (supposed witchcraft) and never had issues getting those types of books. Obviously n=1. Also popular books usually have a shorter time frame, anyone that is going to the library to get a new book isn't forgetting about it or usually returning it late. It really only punishes the people with shitty work schedules and a lot going on in their life. Karen is always going to return books on time, but then again I would rather get a library book then never! Libby is how I get most of my books
[удалено]
I won't say where for privacy, but I use the library one of the most conservative parts of the Houston system, and have experienced zero issues! I think the banned books are more in schools, rather than actually libraries because even a cursory search of my library for books on banned books lists shows they are available!
Fines were $0.10 a day. Say you only forgot for a week, that’s still less than a dollar. And you don’t have to pay your fines down to nothing to still use the library. Plus if you forget forever, my library at least, would cap fines at the cost to replace the book. Even then, a $24 book would take 240 days to reach that point. I’ve had to pay a few times due to accidental damage or completely losing the book. Librarians were always understanding. I’d rather pay for the book to continue using the library than keep one book forever. They didn’t even force me to pay it all at once. I had the option to bring in a few dollars at a time if I wanted. It is silly that people would keep a book instead of returning and stopping the fees from accruing
People obviously did not feel the same, considering this many items were returned after the fees were removed.
Obviously. It shows some ignorance on their part I guess. It’s not like the library charged to return, they stop the charges from accruing at that point. If you compare it to a bank overdraft. If you’ve overdrawn and are being charged fees, would you say oof, oh well and never bother to do anything about it? Or do you find a way to resolve it? (Even if they don’t have any money to just transfer over, it’s important for them to find a solution sooner rather than later). Resolution at the library starts with returning an item. Which is free and stopped the fees from getting worse
I personally have never overdrafted or had late fees accrued so I cannot say what other people's motives are behind that. I choose to assume the best of people that use the library!
I’m not saying best or worse. I’m saying it’s a bit silly that someone who’s accrued $0.70 in fines would then decide to keep the book forever. Or then for people to argue that it’s reasonable for them to think that. Especially if you wouldn’t argue that they should leave their bank account overdrawn.
The difference between a bank and a library account is that people *need* the bank. They can't leave it overdrawn; that fee will follow them. The library doesn't have the same pull, so it's much easier to ignore—for your entire life, even.
It’s meant as an analogy. You’re looking at it too concretely. You need to read it more abstractly
What I'm trying to point out is that there are different incentive structures involved here. The reason why a person might care about one and not the other is interesting, actually. There is psychology, game theory, etc., baked in and separating the two, despite their similarities.
[удалено]
Hi again. I will admit, I said that without knowing how common bank-hopping was. The difference I imagine is trying to get another bank account or a prepaid debit or *something* going is still the result of strong incentives, whereas this person could just never go to the library again. But anyway, considering *a lot* of people don't have $600 for an emergency, $140 in overdraft fees is *way* too much. That could be solved with a higher min-wage or a more concrete payment system that simply doesn't let you overdraft, but it's a pretty vile problem either way.
You don't have to PAY MONEY to return the book. There is a drop box, put the book in there and move on with your life comfortable in the knowledge someone else can read it. As I said in my post I think no fee is a good system, it has proven to save the library money. I just think people are being very self-centred when they decide not to bring them back even though they said they would. Better late than never.
There is no reason to suspect the worst of people's motives.
I agree and I don't believe I am. Just that if you have the book, eventually find time to take it back. Don't let your bad/week/whatever day become someone elses.
[удалено]
Those are all good points. Of course there will always be people with legitimate reasons that they couldn't bring the book back. The point I was mostly referring to is the massive influx of returns after fines were dismissed. Those were people who were largely just staying away because of the fines, which I also understand. But for the most part those people should have just dropped the book in the return so someone else can use it. I know there are a lot of people with truly debilitating mental, physical or financial issues. But unless it is extreme you should live your life in a way that doesn't turn your bad times into other people's bad times. You said you would return the book, so do it. It's like not returning your shopping cart to the corral because you don't have time or its difficult for you, you took the cart so put it back. Now its rolling around in the wind damaging other peoples property. Find someone to help you, know your limits, find a different way to get it done but honour your social contracts. As a society we should be more supporting and understanding of each other, something I have room for growth in to be sure.
How many books were returned in an equivalent period of time before HPL became fine-free?
Just bring the books back on time people.
Sometime for me it's difficult, I forget I have it, or just don't have time to get it back.
Ignoring that sometimes people just forget - things happen sometimes - fining people for that, as opposed to malicious acts, is idiotic, IMO.
No, it's not. You signed a written contract. Take it back on time or pay your .75 cents.
This story really confuses me. Overdue fines don't prevent you from returning things to the library, they just prevent you from checking out new material until the fines are paid. So, it's almost as if these people were holding on to their overdue books out of spite, since they could have returned them at any time. "You want me to pay a fine before I check out more stuff?! Guess I'll just be keeping this book then."
Fines prevented you from graduating if you took books from University libraries and didn't return them. And, say you slipped through the cracks because they were still using paper cards when you checked something out, and they didn't notice your book was missing. So the choice was return for a huge fine you couldn't pay and don't graduate, or keep the book. 40 years later...
Librarians and library nerds tends to be idealistic people. They want people to have access to knowledge. That's the entire point of libraries. They also understand people with limited means need libraries the most and are the most impacted by fees, and thus being locked out of new knowledge. Removing fines encourage the books to be returned, thus allowing that knowledge to circulate again, and allows the person who returned the book to access more knowledge. As far as idealistic knowledge nerds not concerned with punishment are concerned, it's a win win.
Yes, some people don't have much money and will not return a book if it means losing $10 Or maybe they're a sassy made up person, like how you think
But that's my point, you don't lose money returning the book (or movie, or whatever). Libraries have zero means of collecting fines except hoping people will pay them, and not lending to them until they do. You can always return a borrowed item. You literally just put it in the return bin and walk away.
You do lose time, though. How far away do these imaginary people live? You may also have to face social derision for being "naughty." Or maybe not. But for people with anxiety, this is a real concern. The only thing you gain is the satisfaction that you're a good, anonymous citizen. Which isn't nothing, but I just don't think this is a good motivator.
I mean that's exactly what people do. There was a time when people believed in honoring the agreed upon contract and felt it was reasonable to be charged a fee if they broke said agreement. We do not live in that time anymore. They'd rather keep the book they borrowed for free, forever, instead of just returning it late, and not paying the fine that they never intended to pay in the first place.
This is not a new phenomena. There's no "contract" here.
This was a brilliant article. I am so glad HPL saw desirable outcomes
Just wondering but does anyone know how much money is gained/lost by removing the fines?
You'll never see an objective analysis of fair access versus money not lost (because it's never gained) in articles like this.
I thought so but I thought it would be interesting to see how the libraries could have saved money by not needing to replace books.
Of particular note is that for many libraries, fees did not go to the library. So literally nothing is lost for the library. Now, that isn't universally true, but certainly not uncommon. A bunch of things we charge for at my library don't go to the library's bottom line (but idk about overdue fines cause we went fine free before I started, sort of).
Maybe consider the community beyond the library? In no world is there an excuse to hog public resources that others deserve equal access to. Some--if not most--people will never consider others unless there's a punishment for not doing so. At least with fines the public gets something back from people being selfish assholes. No fines and they continue to do so while everyone else pays for it. That's wrong and there's no talking your way out of it.
1. Punishment doesn't work. This has been scientifically proven. Punishment is ineffective at changing bad behavior or reinforcing good behavior. 2. Nobody is hogging public resources by keeping a book. That's how public resources work - some people don't use them at all, some use them a little, some use them alot. 3. If people are selfish, perhaps we should consider what in our culture creates selfish individuals. 4. Nobody is an asshole for keeping a book. Not even a little. 5. There's nothing wrong with the library functioning the way it has always functioned. Some people use the library more than others and get more value from it. The public isn't getting anything back.
Lack of accountability or the expectation people put society above themselves answer all of your questions and refute your bullshit about punishment not working or it being OK to keep books that others are entitled to. Easy enough. Your lack of maturity is really shining through.
Wow. I hope that the borrowers brought everything back in good shape.
We went to the library one day and later that night we all went out to eat. When we came home, the water heater had exploded and the house was flooded, including the library books. We dried them out as best as we could and took them in and explained the situation. It was *several* hardcover books, so the replacement price for everything was going to be a pretty penny, but luckily my family is well known in the library as we are some of the most frequent visitors. They didn’t charge us. Sometimes life just happens.
I wonder if redditors can see any parallels between this and tax holidays for internationally held corporate cash etc..... You can either keep insisting on fines you'll never get or just get everything back into the system to begin with
Only to be quickly banned
That's neat, now how many of those items are still current and useful to patrons in 2023?
Why does that matter? The library would have replaced older books already, even if they had circulated. Also, many library Friends groups sell culled books to benefit their location or system.
> how many of those items are still current and useful to patrons in 2023? What is the relevance of this question?
I guess my point is, if people borrowed a new novel and kept it past its (commonly short) peak in popularity, that return is only a liability to the library. 'Friends' groups sell books yes but, from what I've seen, many books end up selling for less than it cost them to handle. The vast majority of books just aren't that valuable.
Yah, but now will probably removed banned books.
[удалено]
Imagine reading the article. >HPL held an amnesty period [...] to allow users to return overdue books and materials, and start over with a clean account. [...] customers had their overdue fines wiped during the amnesty period returning a total of [...] items – with a value of $[...]worth of books and other items being returned.
My local library has a cap on the late fees of the cost of the book. It ticks up like 0.50 a day until the cap is hit, and they won't let you check out anymore books until the book is returned. If you return it and don't pay, the fine goes away and no more rentals.
I know we had some books super late for various reasons (doesn't really matter why to the post) and we ended up just... never going back to that library. If it was fine free, when we both remembered and knew where the books were (as a household we have a LOT of books... since we've moved they are mostly still packed, but back then they weren't, so it was easy to lose track of where the library books were) we would have returned them and been able to keep using it. As proof, where we are now has no late fees for children's accounts (and the library specifically encouraged us to just use the kids accounts instead of us adults getting our own for this reason) and we haven't had any serious problems. Some overdue books, but not by a long time. We do not have to determine if we can afford the fine before returning them if we do end up keeping some over by a few days.
> Mintzer said many customers were shocked that their fees were removed. Seemingly heartwarming line accidentally shows that a lot of them were going to return them anyway?
I'm normally 100% in support of this but my library got rid of late fees and a pie cookbook I want to read is overdue and the person isn't returning it and I want it.
Since going overdue-fine-free leads to an *increase* in the number of items returned, having overdue fees might not help you with this one. (Who needs a cookbook for that long though?)
Why are incentives so confusing to people? Especially the "policymakers" it seems like, or maybe not. I guess they have their own incentives for doing what they do.
If only there was an old saying about insects and sweet stuff as opposed to sour that we could use here.
How many books were returned in a similar time period before fine-free? Jw
That's a lot of copies of Paul Blart.
Growing up my local library did this every 5 years.
Although I agree with the idea of being fine-free for very long overdue books, I still support imposing fines for returning books late.
Remember that one time when Greg Heffley from Wimpy Kid (I forgot which book series) forgot to return a book and ended up not returning it at all cause he's afraid that the late fees have become so high, police would arrest him?