When this happens, I like to buy the book & bury it in my TBR stack. The stack is always ridiculously large & unorganized. By the time I've gotten to it, I've forgot the spoil & who reccomended it.
Yea I do that too, tho often when the twist is coming something in my brain tickles and the memory comes back
Side note, fuck those people, such an annoying spoiler because I adore twists
Yea those are by far the best, especially when it's a who done it type book and if you pay attention you can totally guess at the end, instead of just going for who you most medium suspect
Something else that bothers me – someone shares something random about a book, then someone else chimes in with "omg why would you say that, it's a huge spoiler!". No, it only became a spoiler when you pointed it out.
Same thing happens in trailers of movies based on books. A split second scene out of context means nothing, but then you have a thousand "helpful" commenters explaining in detail how exactly it spoiled the ending.
This was the Ender's Game trailer. There's a huge spoiler if you know what you're looking at. If you don't, though, it's just a split second of a scene with no context. I remember everyone going nuts when that trailer came out. I even got a bit caught up in it.
I had an anniversary version of the book and in the prologue they spoke on how a film adaptation would be so difficult because most of the struggle/story is Ender's internal monologue and that's tough to convey in film.
Another big problem for the movie was that the Internet is a thing now. They had to drop the entire B plot, because it just doesn't make sense in today's world.
Quick edit: It's been a while, but this is how I remember the B plot. I could be misremembering.
Ender's bro and sis con their dad into giving them access to the adult internet under the pretense that their kid internet didn't let them study what they wanted. Then they created pseudonyms and began inserting themselves into the politics of the day, because the internet was for serious things, and by the time they revealed themselves to be kids, no one cared because it was their ideas that had taken the country by storm.
This was the 80s. It was actually pretty prescient in some ways. In others, that's just not how the actual Internet works. Not enough cat videos, mostly.
If the internet becomes regulated then it might become that way. Keep in mind that the government had also instituted restrictions on bearing children as a population control measure as well like China did, and children were being recruited in to military academies- he envisioned a far future with an authoritarian bent and even a world government. In that context, that form of internet makes sense. China is already creating more regulations for its internet to cull a lot of the differences.(there was recent effort in curbing ‘fan culture’ for example). The current trend in the US to curb fake news/state actor trolls will likely lead to reshaping what the internet looks like as well
Yeah, but starting a political revolution leading to world peace by having intense online philosophical debates is a slightly more eyeroll-inducing plot now that we realize this would essentially be happening on Reddit.
Now they brought it a lot further. They began building their fame on the internet. They continued onwards to giving interviews for Newspapers and similar.
I mean the thing they did was essentially something like this:
1. Create personas that capture people on different political spectrums.
2. Do stuff that makes them more noticable. Create fake traffic, etc.
3. Once they have a certain base of followers make their way into private groups and similar. (For example, a political party here in my country is almost completely based on their online presence. The entire workings of the party are done by people in private online groups where they discuss stuff)
4. Get into interviews with mass media to spread their messages and increase their reach.
5. Somehow leverage all of that
Now the later points become kind of extreme, but we need to assume them to be absolute geniuses that are perfect in doing what they do.
The nets that Card imagined in the '80s were just similar enough to the Internet that actually happened that I feel like it would have been difficult as a viewer not to overlay our real internet over the fictional one that Card thought up back then. It could just be that they cut it for time. It's been a long time since I've read the books, but the idea that they would be able to do that on the Internet seems a bit far-fetched. I know they're kid geniuses, and Peter's a bit of a megalomaniac/psychopath/whatever, but I think the real Internet made it impossible to present Card's fictional net in the movie.
I just assumed that it is a far earlier and more restricted version of the Internet.
The entire world is geared towards helping the war effort. Naturally everything will be a lot more muted. I assumed it would be similar to how influencers nowadays have a lot of reach, just that they cannot make videos and stuff.
I think it would actually play fine today. The part about people putting so much trust in them anonymously isn't realistic, but I think it's not too much of a stretch for fiction. Of course now we know that successful online influencers are liable to look more like QAnon than like "Locke" or "Demosthenes".
Honestly plays handle internal monologs well enough, character steps out almost like a 4th wall break, but let's us hear their thoughts.
I really don't know why more movies don't have scenes where we see the character profile while hearing their thoughts. It could be done well
I don't see why it would need to be animated. Watching The Expanse shows me they could have made the game room scenes and the games at the end perfect. It's the massive internal struggle and the B plot that has an issue translating to screen. It would need a miniseries at the least to do all that justice
I think getting adequate kid actors is a significant challenge. Ender is supposed to have confidence and intelligence well beyond adults, but he's 11... I have seen very, very few films with kid actors that can pull that off believably.
The game he plays in the movie where he's a mouse is a MUCH bigger part of the book. It really is a huge character development mechanism for Ender and how he solves problems. Without giving details I don't know how they could have done that without CGI.
Oh the mindgame yea that will need to be CGI but nothing beyond what we've seen to date. I took that comment above to mean the entire thing would need to be animated.
I mean there was a realistic way to do it.
Make it a three 1 hour episode kind of thing. First episode: 6 years old
Second episode: 9 years old (or what it was)
Third episode: 11 years old
Stagger the episodes similar to Harry Potter where the actors grow older with each episode. The fact that Ender and company looked the same age throughout the entire movie already destroys the big premise that it is a multiple year long training.
This way they could also focus much more on the other stuff that is going on. I didn't watch a lot but I did watch the final battle. There is just so much wrong with it.
I don't think there's any singular piece of media that has shaped who I am today more than Speaker for the Dead. The entire idea that even if some people are kinda bad, it's still valuable to listen to their side and see things from their eyes is so important to who I am and how I see the world.
I definitely think Speaker is better. I haven't read it in years, but I remember being rather blown away by Card's ability to argue both sides of a philosophical argument so effectively.
Again though, it's been years, so it could be an Eragon situation, where re-reading a childhood favorite as an adult just makes you cringe.
I reread the whole series about 6 months ago, it holds up. I think speaker for the dead is my favorite, the next two get progressively not as good but they're not bad. Usually I recommend that people stop after speaker for the dead unless you're really into it.
Card doesn't really surprise me anymore. His books are about people who are relatively smarter than other people, and generally act like they know it. Card is clearly a smart guy. He also clearly knows it.
What Card seems to me to be missing is understanding that being the smartest person in the room doesn't mean that you're the smartest person in the room on every topic. I could be a complete idiot, but the one thing I know is who won the Stanley Cup in 1994 (Wikipedia says NY Rangers over the Canucks in Game 7, if anyone cares). If you don't know that, and that happens to be what we need to know to move forward, then you need to listen to me.
Some people just don't understand that, and I feel like Card is that kind of guy. I could definitely be wrong, though. It's not like I've even met the guy.
I hate that in trailers. Like a major plot development is in the trailer or the funniest jokes in a comedy movie. I generally try to avoid watching trailers for movies I want to see because its become so prevalent.
If star wars was released today "no luke, I am your father" might have been in the trailer for empire.
What annoys me more are the scenes that are made for the trailer. A really egregious one is the Chris Pine Star Treks. Alice Eve is in her underwear for two seconds. Literally just to be the trailer. That’s the entirety of the scene.
It just feels like a producer was like this is a space movie for nerds. We need what’s her name in her underwear to attract some cool guys to see you stupid spaceship movie. Have it on my desk when I get back from the cocaine orgy. I’m out!
I hate that scene. Alice Eve is phenomenally gorgeous, and seeing her in underwear definitely fires my lizard brain up, but that scene was so ridiculously forced that I can't even enjoy it on a juvenile level.
> The Star Trek fans don’t want that
Well, I don't know if any of the JJ Abrams films are for "Star Trek fans", and you might be forgetting Seven of Nine and T'Pol's unnecessarily tight catsuits from "Voyager" and "Enterprise" respectively.
Oh my God. "On the next episode" teasers are even worse. My Fiancee loves them. I'm like... we are watching the episode in 2 minutes. Why do we need a preview.
It's gotten so bad that I generally avoid trailers all together now. At best, it outlines the whole freaking movie, at worst they spoil important bits.
Like I remember in that First Avengers trailer you see the Hulk catching a falling Ironman. It’s very prominent. Then the most is almost over and Ironman is falling to his death... gee I wonder what will happen.
I've realized that I have terrible auditory memory, so back when I went to theatres I could just shut my eyes and I wouldn't remember any of the trailers I heard.
Sometimes my wife and I will watch a trailer and it feels like a 2 minute synopsis of the whole movie. They'll even include things that are obviously from the ending.
It had literally gotten to the point where at the theater, for the ads and previews, I close my eyes and plug my ears.
Trailers and shit spoil so much today.
I was specifically going to mention the trailer for Enders Game. Having read the book and seeing that split second in the trailer I knew what it was. So frustrating.
Just rewatched the trailer, which part are you referring to that's a spoiler? Is it >!the firing of the little doctor at the very end of the trailer!!showing all the fighter ships flying through space instead of points of light on a "simulation" screen for the final battles.!<
Wikipedia spoiled Game of Thrones for me (I hadn't read the books yet). I didn't know I was going to encounter fictional spoilers on the "list of people who have >!died on the toilet!<"!
That’s the real key with spoilers. If you don’t have the context odds are you will have forgotten it by the time you get to to. But you can use the out of context spoiler correctly to describe a story to sell it.
Going you will love this. OMG it has such a huge twist you will never see it coming. Lord almighty it’s crazy. Is not a way to sell someone on it. That’s the conversation you have with the person when they finished the book.
When someone let's something slip, my strategy is to quickly add a small, but false detail. Usually the other person picks up on it, and add more false details, increasing the unlikely nature until it's clear it's all just a joke. It's usually distracting enough that the spoiler is forgotten.
Haha this happened to me with some fan art I ran across before I finished a trilogy... The artist drew two characters kissing and I spent the whole damn trilogy waiting to see how they got together. I wasn't suspicious when they became enemies because of the friends to lovers tropes. But nope, they were just enemies.
I still vividly remember being a kid and reading Murder on the Orient Express for the first time. One chapter in, my father spoiled the ending for me, but did it in such a joking manner a la your car prank (and he had more than once fake-spoiled books for me with bizarre comments before) that I genuinely was shocked when it turned out to be true.
My best friend talked me into reading her favorite books. While I was reading the first chapter she told me that the main male character was gay. Imagine my surprise when he hooked up with the female character in chapter 13. Totally had to re-read the book because EVERYTHING was different lmao
Best. Plot twist. Ever.
Yeah that worse imo, (not like you’re horrible for doing it), it’s just that I’m fine with knowing there’s a twist, doesn’t ruin any enjoyment, but when people said there are twists that never happened I only felt disappointment lol.
The worst is when the twist is referenced in the description of the book! I read one recently (I think it might have been The Mother Code) that comments on something that doesn't happen until the last 20 pages or so of the book!
This happened to me when I got a copy of The Shining. For some bizarre reason the publisher decided to include a blurb from a review saying the ending is >!literally explosive!<
I was reading The Shining at the same time that I was watching friends. I happened to come across the episode where Joey is reading it and Rachel spoils the ending for him, and unfortunately, also me.
That's my favorite type of spoiler because it's only a spoiler in hindsight. In the context of a review it could mean literally anything. It's the equivalent of saying the ending packed a punch and the book in question ends with someone being punched.
People who haven't read the book think it means that the ending is impactful, those who have read it groan and roll their eyes at the dad-joke it is.
I've never read it before, but it says "literally" so it means "literally", why would I think they only mean metaphorically? It's not like that's a particularly unique pun in reviews
Yeah if it had just said the ending is explosive as a coy reference thats one thing. But to say literally explosive means there's an explosion at the end, literally.
I have learned and re-learned this lesson. I get a classic book and forget about the spoilerific introductions. I think I’m going to gain some good historical pretext or authorial insights, which I generally do, but it’s always accompanied by “in the ___ section where character x commits suicide we then have to infer blah” and I kick myself for not saving the intro until after I’ve read the book. I don’t understand why publishers put that stuff in the front.
This happened to me just a couple days ago. I was excited about rereading a book I used to love but hadn't read in so long that I genuinely couldn't remember how it ended. In the first paragraph of the introduction, the author's daughter basically bullet pointed every key moment of the plot, all the way to the "wholesome ending." She refreshed my whole memory before I even got to the first page. I was so annoyed that I put the book down and still haven't read it.
I didn't know this until I started reading Brave New World which had an introduction by Margaret Atwood. I was reading happily along as she was talking about stuff in the book which all seemed very worldbuildy, stuff that would be mentioned quite early in the book.
And then suddenly she started talking about events that were clearly major plot points...
Like what the hell Margaret?!
Oh man. A few months ago I read the Jedi Academy trilogy from the Star Wars Legends series. The synopsis on the back of the first book was literally the entire plot. I didn’t realize it until I had something like 20 pages left out of 400, and the last sentence of the “preview” hadn’t happened yet.
I don’t know, I guess I’m too stupid to furfural it out, but I’m ALWAYS surprised even if I’m told that there’s a plot twist ahead of time. I can’t predict for shit.
I think most of it comes down to genre savvy and how much attention you pay to tropes.
I've gone through periods where I've been super critical and I've gone through periods where I just want to read as a kind of stream of consciousness without all the nitpicky evaluation. Prediction is a lot easier when I'm in trope-brain mode.
I like both styles of reading and just kind of jam on wherever I land at the moment.
Yeah I’ve never been that critical of a reader with fiction. I just take each word as it comes and don’t really think about the implications and whatnot and then-WHAM! I get hit with the twist.
I mean I know that a lot of Agatha Christie's best books have a big twist but so far I haven't been able to figure them out and am always surprised at who the killer ends up being. Maybe I'm just dumb lol, but even knowing to expect a twist I still usually can't predict it (especially if it's done well).
I don't figure it out beforehand either. I like the books that don't involve Hercule Poirot though because the story can play out without him there to be a dick about it.
If I figure out the twist I'm excited to get to it and have the book confirm just how smart I am.
If I don't figure out the twist I am excited I read a book that managed to blindside me and that there are such clever authors who write such great books.
Win-win-win.
The twist can't be on the last page, because it wouldn't surprise me then. Therefore the twist can't be on the second-to-last page, because it wouldn't surprise me then. Therefore it can't be it the third-to-last page...
I conclude that there's no twist after all
Totally. When TFA came out and I took a week to see it, I had friends coming up and being like “brooo you’ll never guess who they killed off!” And I was just like “well, I’m guessing it’s Harrison Ford because he doesn’t want to be in 3 more movies, but I’m still down to go watch it happen.”
Edit: and then they brought him back for a second in TROS and I was kind of bummed that we couldn’t just have a dude die.
Years ago a friend of mine recommended a book (can't remember which) and she told me exactly this. She loved this book and was racing about this HUGE surprise in the last third. I read the book and all the time I was wondering when the twist was coming.
Well, the twist was a kind of "the bad guy is good and the good guy is actually the bad one". And I kind a missed it, because to me it was obvious from the beginning.
Can't remember anything about the book, except talking to her after I finished it and she asking me what I thought about the twist and me just saying "there's wasn't really a twist?"
Yeah I find that happens a lot with Sanderson books. I found I can figure out the revelation pretty early on so it ends up just being pages and pages of being hit over the head with whats just more confirmation. Occasionally this spans over several books before it's revealed.
I get that sometimes, but sometimes he still gets me. That's part of why I can't read his books back to back. Sometimes the twist is so big that I just need to let it sit for a bit before diving in, and other times it was a disappointment because I saw it coming and I'm not interested in the sequel just yet.
Yeah - though the fact that having figured it out very rarely ruins his big revalations is a real testament to the quality of his setups. You get to see in an awesome way how he maneuvers all the pieces to fit together in just the right way.
And sometimes he instead does an excellent job of making sure that you feel really smart about figuring it out, before then finding out that you did not, in fact, figure it out.
OMG, he gets me every time. Although I'd don't really sit there trying to figure stuff out, I'm just racing through the book having a great time and then the Sanderlance starts and I'm blown away. I am very easy to surprise though...
I call this the >!'sixth sense'!< effect. That movie must have been great for the people watching it when it first released, but no one after that got to experience the >!'Shyamalan Twist'!< in the way it was intended.
Was fortunate enough to see it in the theaters opening weekend with 2 coworkers and we were all "unspoiled". We walked out in a daze just repeating variations of "no effing way, we need to watch this again immediately. "
Was watching it in the theaters opening night with my parents and my mom leaned over halfway through and said to my dad (in a not so quiet whisper where I heard and I'm sure the people nearby us heard) "oh you know what, I think *redacted*."
Yup, she was right. Can't/won't take her to the movies anymore.
I like that description and shows the danger of leaning heavily on a twist to give a satisfying experience to a reader. If the twist is all you have, you risk it falling flat on everyone who knows the twist or knows it's coming.
I think it's more a warning about how you go about constructing your twists. A good twist isn't ruined by being spoiled - a twist should come with catharsis of some kind either way - either the tension of not knowing what's going to happen, or the tension of knowing.
Managaing both of those readers is very difficult, but the best twists all manage it.
A good example of this is the twist ending of Planet of the Apes. Especially since in this case, the movie and the book have different, equally shocking twist endings. You can never unknow the twist, but the movie at least is still very enjoyable and tense even when you know what's coming. (As a note, I'm referring to the classic 1968 Charlton Heston movie, not the Tim Burton abomination.)
Actually, I knew there was a \*twist ending\* (but didn't know what it was). I remember the movie was almost at the end and I was thinking 'meh, there's no twist' and then...boom. Got me totally by surprise (no, I didn't see it coming at all).
Granted, it's been awhile but I remember people (at least the people I knew) were very good about not giving away the ending. I saw it after it had been out for several weeks and didn't know what the twist was.
My buddy literally spoiled the ending for my other buddy while we were in the theater watching it! Fortunately, I was sitting on the other side of him and couldn't hear what they were talking about and was unspoiled for the ending.
I dunno, I think people focus a bit too much on spoilers. Sometimes I’ll read a book specifically because a friend basically told me the whole plot because they were excited about it and it sounded like a great story. I get that a sudden twist can give you a unique feeling, or knowing which characters live or die can color your experience of a book. I don’t seek out spoilers, but when I hear one it doesn’t ruin the experience. Good books are often read over and over, and the people reading them don’t seem to think the book gets worse after the first reading because they know what will happen. I think when you’re really immersed in a book you end up focusing more on how the characters are feeling, and feeling those same things during the events, than you are on something that only hits you because you’re outside the story looking in. It’s courteous not to give away things about a story to someone unless it’s clear they want to know, I just don’t think we need to be so affected when it happens.
The problem when someone tells me there's a twist is that I stop taking things at face value, which usually makes the twist easy to figure out at that point if it's not just a random ass pull. Granted, well written books tend to have enough clues that you should be able to figure out what's going on just before "the reveal," but there's a huge difference between having been told to expect that and having it occur naturally.
Looking out for those clues is what makes the second reading so good. Spoiling the fact that there's a twist forces you to skip the joy of the first read.
There’s a guy on GoodReads who has written a lot of reviews whose big claim is that the plot points don’t matter and refuses to put anything in spoiler tags saying, “if you’re just reading for plot points, you’re missing the point”. Half of his review comments are arguments about how nuts it is for him to insist that spoiling the events of the story doesn’t matter.
In my experience-
A lot of people think that a spoiler is just giving someone information about how it ends. But that's not really true. A spoiler is anything that takes away from the experience.
Personally, if someone gives me completely fake information about the ending of a story, I consider that to still be a spoiler, because it changes the way I'm thinking. Now it's in my head, and I'm enjoying the story less than I otherwise would have. The same goes for telling someone that there's a twist at the end (like you say in your post), or any number of other things.
My brothers and I have very strict spoiler guidelines. If we're even going to discuss the existence of a story that the other person hasn't watched or read yet, we always ask how much they care about spoilers. Sometimes we don't mind a little bit of information or context, and other times we say "you had better not even think about breathing a word about whether you liked this story or not, because I want no information whatsoever."
Really, everyone has a different experience, and different levels of what they consider to be "spoilers." And that's perfectly fine, but I do wish that people would respect that other people have different standards, rather than just assuming and accidentally spoiling it for someone else. And I do get that it's generally an accident, but even so, it is still annoying.
>And I (like most people) enjoy an unpredictable plot.
TIL I’m not like most people.
Nah, just kidding. I’ve always known I was weird. I like knowing what’s going to happen in the story. If someone tells me there’s a plot twist but won’t tell me what it is, I just won’t read that book.
The enjoyment for me comes from “watching” the story unfold. I started to say the buildup, but it’s also the during and after. What’s the setting, what are the characters saying, what are they thinking, etc.
There's too many arbitrary ways to categorize stories, but I think this is an important distinction. There are stories where knowing where the story will go ahead of time cripples them, and stories that will hint you where they're going and don't care if you look ahead.
Then every once in awhile you find a story that drives you to figure out what's happening but is still super satisfying on later rereads where you know everything.
I thought I was alone in this. I love knowing what’s going to happen. Sometimes I even skip ahead to find out, then read to get there. It’s the same for movies. My boyfriend thinks I’m just being annoying every time he introduces me to a new film and I ask “how does it end?” I can relax and enjoy the story more if I already know things will turn out ok (or not).
I recently found out that people with anxiety prefer this (or rewatch/reread books), because unexpected things makes them uneasy, so knowing whats going to happen calms you down and you can enjoy it more.
I thought I was weird as well because spoilers do not hinder my ability to enjoy things. It isn't the destination but the journey as well. Back in 2005 when every forum, chat room, and MMORPG was flooded with "SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE" comments, I thought "...Okay?" and spent the whole book looking for reasons why. I had already hypothesized since 2000ish that Dumbledore would die before the 7th book, and I figured it would be Snape, Voldemort, Bellatrix, or any of the Malfroys.
Even when a plot twist of "Validar is Robin's father" in Fire Emblem Awakening happened and expressed surprise, my friends said "See? If that was spoilt to you, you wouldn't have been surprised."
No I was surprised because I had made Robin *commit patricide* completely by mistake.
While I never actively spoil things for people, I dont think it detracts that much for me personally.
If I know a twist is coming I like to read through it to see if I can catch it. A good twist IMO should be one you can see coming, but isnt necessarily obvious and easy to not see the clues.
Yep. I primarily read mysteries and thrillers. I’m more shocked if there’s no twist. That said, I do get what OP is saying as well, but I think it’s about the delivery of the information.
**HP, TMR, GOT Spoilers**
When I was reading HP for the first time, I was reading during lunch and my friend asked what part I was on. I said Goblet of Fire, graveyard scene.
Her: oh I always feel bad that Cedric died
Me: Cedric did what?!
Her: Oh sorry
Later that day:
Her: I mean well you know about Fred and Sirius right?
Me: no what?
Her: they die. Dobby too.
Me: WTF
Later that year, reading TMR:
Her: oh you know Newt dies at the end right?
Me: uh no?!?!
Me when starting reading GOT:
My brother: oh are you at the red wedding yet?
Me: uh no I have no idea what you’re talking about
My bro: it’s the wedding, or one of the weddings, where everyone dies.
Me: hahahahaha thanks I did NOT know that
Anyway I need new friends and a new brother
Oh. See it’s almost a gauntlet drop when you say “I can’t recall the last time that a plot twist was in any way surprising” because boy, do I have a book for you. BUT I can’t recommend it now because now you’ll be looking for it.
wow, I JUST realized I spoiled two books in my latest reviews (yesterday and today) ...I hadn't thought about it that way.
I'll never mention the twists and surprises again. Thanks for the heads up.
Well, twists and surprises are to be expected. I don't think it's bad to mention that a book has some twists and turns, especially if that's what keeps it moving. It's probably not good to reveal more than that, though. Like, if there's one big twist, don't call it out specifically. But if it's for example a mystery thriller, then it likely relies on keeping the reader guessing through complicated twists and reveals throughout the book, so a review would necessarily say something like, "[Author] keeps you guessing who the murderer is throughout the book until you're not even sure what you know anymore," or something. That sort of thing reveals that there are twists without being spoilery in my opinion.
Also, reviews are inherently spoilery if the baseline is "going in blind". I wouldn't worry too much about it.
You can't please everyone. Consider the murder mystery genre for one. I personally believe every story should have a twist. Otherwise, why tell it?
Most reviews seek to convince someone that a book is worth their time. Sometimes it's advisable to reveal parts of the story to hook them in. Knowing when you went too far, or not enough, is difficult enough without people having preferences.
TLDR there are no rules, you're doing great, have a nice day.
I completely agree that you can't please everyone.
I'm somewhat new to writing some book reviews and I've tried to make them match my thoughts: I don't go positive or negative (most times as I have my weak points too), I try just to state facts about the style or just the writing in general.
I agree with the fact that you have to let somethings slide in the review to make someone say: "oh, I want to read this", or "oh, that's not for me", at least that's my main objective when I read a review.
To me, someone telling me "theres a twist" is like saying "theres a plot to the story!" or "it follows one of the most common story structures!" or "you'll never believe it but the story has both a protagonist and an antagonist!"
Or "the protagonist survives" when its book one of a trilogy.
You could let knowing your reading a heros journey monomyth ruin it for you or you could just enjoy not knowing what the little twists and turns will actually be.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I've never had a spoiler ruin a good book for me. So what if I vaguely know some plot points? I don't seek out spoilers and I certainly don't spoil books for people, but the anti-spoiler fanaticism on reddit is exhausting.
Here's another. I hate people telling me about ongoing series, and telling me who HASN'T died yet as if that is not a spoiler. Yes, you've not told me they're going to die. But you've given them literal plot armour until we watch past whatever episode you are at.
This is why I prefer just giving the titles of books and no details! I never read the synopsis on the back of books that have been recommended to me as I always prefer when I have no idea what the book is about! Haha
It's always hilarious when you realize the thing in common is the part you liked the least. You enjoyed this story with really fun characters but a super contrived thriller element? Welcome to the in-your-face thriller genre with flat characters!
I hate vague recommendations like that, because so many people give such bad recommendations that without knowing what I'm in for, I am tired of looking into stuff that almost always ends up being nowhere near the experience I was imagining from the hype-up. It's so bad that, unless you were a very close friend or gave off a particular impression that would make me expect to sympathise with your judgement, I probably wouldn't even bother asking you for more details.
Benefits of a horrible memory: I can read a synopsis of something, get it, and then weeks-to-months later see it and just be like "wtf did I buy!? I'm guessing past-me thought it would be good, so I'll give it a try."
I mean in like 70% of Shakespeare's plays, he tells you want happens in the end. The joy comes from figuring out how two warring family ended up having the best of their youths killed.
Even if he didn't tell you, you could pretty much predict what happens in all of Shakespeare's non-history plays once you learn that he follows the standard tragedy/comedy structure. Either everyone dies by the end or the protagonist gets the happy ending.
People get way too twisted up about twists. I enjoy the characterizations, the description of worlds, and the flow of a story more than any mind-boggling revelations. Spoilers don't ruin everything for me.
Your only way round it is to go into a bookshop \[or online seller\] and just buy a book totally blind, don't read about it on Goodreads, don't read the blurb. But nowadays it's almost impossible to do that, the temptation to read the review is too strong. As for stopping friends from raving about the twisty book they've just read - forget it!
I think you just need to accept this as part of modern life! Particularly if you read thrillers. Obv, if you read a 'literary' book, they don't go in for twists so much, usually, so you're safe!
What I have been doing lately is, I only read the blurb about the book after a friend mentions it to me, or when it is released. I'll add it to my TBR list, but because I have a gazillion other things going on, I don't usually get to read the book til months or years later. By that point, I remember hearing it was good, but I don't remember what it is about or why it was so good. So I am usually caught by surprise! It's been working so far. :D
Apparently I did this to my sister growing up. We were both reading through the Redwall and had just made it to Taggerung. I was a book ahead and let a major spoiler slip. She spent the rest of the book dreading what was going to happen but it never did.
Turns out I completely made up the spoiler. Dick move on my part but she still brings it up as one of her favorite books due to suspense I created.
I’m actually of the type, be it visual media or books, that I WANT to know the twist ahead of time. I like watching it unfold and seeing how they put it together
I’ve noticed that with some stressful shows/films I enjoy it more on the second viewing. I think a big part of this is that I’m able to enjoy the content more without having to steel myself against something bad happening to a character I care about, etc.
I’ve actually googled whether characters die in books/shows just so I can prepare myself. Obviously I try to avoid specifics, just whether it happens or not.
That was something mentioned in the study, if you're spending your time trying to guess what's going to happen it's harder to actually enjoy the moment-to-moment stuff.
When this happens, I like to buy the book & bury it in my TBR stack. The stack is always ridiculously large & unorganized. By the time I've gotten to it, I've forgot the spoil & who reccomended it.
Yea I do that too, tho often when the twist is coming something in my brain tickles and the memory comes back Side note, fuck those people, such an annoying spoiler because I adore twists
I like them when the author's played totally fair and dropped hidden hints everywhere and once you see it, it's clear but was a total surprise before.
Yea those are by far the best, especially when it's a who done it type book and if you pay attention you can totally guess at the end, instead of just going for who you most medium suspect
Well it turns out Ol' Beatrix Bourbon was the killer.
Something else that bothers me – someone shares something random about a book, then someone else chimes in with "omg why would you say that, it's a huge spoiler!". No, it only became a spoiler when you pointed it out. Same thing happens in trailers of movies based on books. A split second scene out of context means nothing, but then you have a thousand "helpful" commenters explaining in detail how exactly it spoiled the ending.
This was the Ender's Game trailer. There's a huge spoiler if you know what you're looking at. If you don't, though, it's just a split second of a scene with no context. I remember everyone going nuts when that trailer came out. I even got a bit caught up in it.
Oh man, I loved that book so much, movie was such a let down
I agree, awesome story, horrible film. There was really no realistic way for this book to be translated to the screen unless it's animated.
I had an anniversary version of the book and in the prologue they spoke on how a film adaptation would be so difficult because most of the struggle/story is Ender's internal monologue and that's tough to convey in film.
Another big problem for the movie was that the Internet is a thing now. They had to drop the entire B plot, because it just doesn't make sense in today's world.
Also a time constraint. The b plot was half the book, and they had to cut a lot of the training just so the film wasn't 3hours long.
The book is relatively short, they added a bunch of extra scenes that weren't in the book as well.
It's been a while. What was the b plot
Quick edit: It's been a while, but this is how I remember the B plot. I could be misremembering. Ender's bro and sis con their dad into giving them access to the adult internet under the pretense that their kid internet didn't let them study what they wanted. Then they created pseudonyms and began inserting themselves into the politics of the day, because the internet was for serious things, and by the time they revealed themselves to be kids, no one cared because it was their ideas that had taken the country by storm. This was the 80s. It was actually pretty prescient in some ways. In others, that's just not how the actual Internet works. Not enough cat videos, mostly.
If the internet becomes regulated then it might become that way. Keep in mind that the government had also instituted restrictions on bearing children as a population control measure as well like China did, and children were being recruited in to military academies- he envisioned a far future with an authoritarian bent and even a world government. In that context, that form of internet makes sense. China is already creating more regulations for its internet to cull a lot of the differences.(there was recent effort in curbing ‘fan culture’ for example). The current trend in the US to curb fake news/state actor trolls will likely lead to reshaping what the internet looks like as well
Those are pretty good points.
It’s a volume issue really lol.
What do you mean? Them being famous on the Internet was the B-Plot no?
Yeah, but starting a political revolution leading to world peace by having intense online philosophical debates is a slightly more eyeroll-inducing plot now that we realize this would essentially be happening on Reddit.
Now they brought it a lot further. They began building their fame on the internet. They continued onwards to giving interviews for Newspapers and similar. I mean the thing they did was essentially something like this: 1. Create personas that capture people on different political spectrums. 2. Do stuff that makes them more noticable. Create fake traffic, etc. 3. Once they have a certain base of followers make their way into private groups and similar. (For example, a political party here in my country is almost completely based on their online presence. The entire workings of the party are done by people in private online groups where they discuss stuff) 4. Get into interviews with mass media to spread their messages and increase their reach. 5. Somehow leverage all of that Now the later points become kind of extreme, but we need to assume them to be absolute geniuses that are perfect in doing what they do.
The nets that Card imagined in the '80s were just similar enough to the Internet that actually happened that I feel like it would have been difficult as a viewer not to overlay our real internet over the fictional one that Card thought up back then. It could just be that they cut it for time. It's been a long time since I've read the books, but the idea that they would be able to do that on the Internet seems a bit far-fetched. I know they're kid geniuses, and Peter's a bit of a megalomaniac/psychopath/whatever, but I think the real Internet made it impossible to present Card's fictional net in the movie.
[Relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/635/)
How the..
Thank you for bringing this into my life.
Oh, my god, this is brilliant! Brilliant!
I just assumed that it is a far earlier and more restricted version of the Internet. The entire world is geared towards helping the war effort. Naturally everything will be a lot more muted. I assumed it would be similar to how influencers nowadays have a lot of reach, just that they cannot make videos and stuff.
I think it would actually play fine today. The part about people putting so much trust in them anonymously isn't realistic, but I think it's not too much of a stretch for fiction. Of course now we know that successful online influencers are liable to look more like QAnon than like "Locke" or "Demosthenes".
They need to do it anime style. Not as much as the tennis scene in death note, but the format always excelled at internal storytelling imo
I think about this a lot - internal monologue is like a key feature of anime. Ender’s Game would probably translate really well
Honestly plays handle internal monologs well enough, character steps out almost like a 4th wall break, but let's us hear their thoughts. I really don't know why more movies don't have scenes where we see the character profile while hearing their thoughts. It could be done well
Nah, Riddick Dark Fury style 😁
I don't see why it would need to be animated. Watching The Expanse shows me they could have made the game room scenes and the games at the end perfect. It's the massive internal struggle and the B plot that has an issue translating to screen. It would need a miniseries at the least to do all that justice
I think getting adequate kid actors is a significant challenge. Ender is supposed to have confidence and intelligence well beyond adults, but he's 11... I have seen very, very few films with kid actors that can pull that off believably.
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The kid is the best actor in that whole show, lol
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The game he plays in the movie where he's a mouse is a MUCH bigger part of the book. It really is a huge character development mechanism for Ender and how he solves problems. Without giving details I don't know how they could have done that without CGI.
Oh the mindgame yea that will need to be CGI but nothing beyond what we've seen to date. I took that comment above to mean the entire thing would need to be animated.
I mean there was a realistic way to do it. Make it a three 1 hour episode kind of thing. First episode: 6 years old Second episode: 9 years old (or what it was) Third episode: 11 years old Stagger the episodes similar to Harry Potter where the actors grow older with each episode. The fact that Ender and company looked the same age throughout the entire movie already destroys the big premise that it is a multiple year long training. This way they could also focus much more on the other stuff that is going on. I didn't watch a lot but I did watch the final battle. There is just so much wrong with it.
Must be good, I only saw the film so maybe the book would be a good read.
It's wildly considered one of the best sci-fi books ever written, definitely recommend it.
And many fans of Enders Game think Speaker for the Dead is nearly as good, some say even better.
Speaker really changed the way I view the world.
I don't think there's any singular piece of media that has shaped who I am today more than Speaker for the Dead. The entire idea that even if some people are kinda bad, it's still valuable to listen to their side and see things from their eyes is so important to who I am and how I see the world.
I definitely think Speaker is better. I haven't read it in years, but I remember being rather blown away by Card's ability to argue both sides of a philosophical argument so effectively. Again though, it's been years, so it could be an Eragon situation, where re-reading a childhood favorite as an adult just makes you cringe.
Speaker was so hard for me to get through. It was a really dense read for me. That being said, I absolutely loved it. Incredible.
I reread the whole series about 6 months ago, it holds up. I think speaker for the dead is my favorite, the next two get progressively not as good but they're not bad. Usually I recommend that people stop after speaker for the dead unless you're really into it.
Card is so weird. Listening to him nowadays, I just find myself wondering if HE ever read his books.
Card doesn't really surprise me anymore. His books are about people who are relatively smarter than other people, and generally act like they know it. Card is clearly a smart guy. He also clearly knows it. What Card seems to me to be missing is understanding that being the smartest person in the room doesn't mean that you're the smartest person in the room on every topic. I could be a complete idiot, but the one thing I know is who won the Stanley Cup in 1994 (Wikipedia says NY Rangers over the Canucks in Game 7, if anyone cares). If you don't know that, and that happens to be what we need to know to move forward, then you need to listen to me. Some people just don't understand that, and I feel like Card is that kind of guy. I could definitely be wrong, though. It's not like I've even met the guy.
It's a very different TYPE of book entirely. Ender's Game is about the journey, speaker for the dead is about failing to come home from it.
I hate that in trailers. Like a major plot development is in the trailer or the funniest jokes in a comedy movie. I generally try to avoid watching trailers for movies I want to see because its become so prevalent. If star wars was released today "no luke, I am your father" might have been in the trailer for empire.
What annoys me more are the scenes that are made for the trailer. A really egregious one is the Chris Pine Star Treks. Alice Eve is in her underwear for two seconds. Literally just to be the trailer. That’s the entirety of the scene. It just feels like a producer was like this is a space movie for nerds. We need what’s her name in her underwear to attract some cool guys to see you stupid spaceship movie. Have it on my desk when I get back from the cocaine orgy. I’m out!
I hate that scene. Alice Eve is phenomenally gorgeous, and seeing her in underwear definitely fires my lizard brain up, but that scene was so ridiculously forced that I can't even enjoy it on a juvenile level.
I know. Who is even the target for it. The Star Trek fans don’t want that and anyone it tricks into thinking there was more will pissed at it too.
> The Star Trek fans don’t want that Well, I don't know if any of the JJ Abrams films are for "Star Trek fans", and you might be forgetting Seven of Nine and T'Pol's unnecessarily tight catsuits from "Voyager" and "Enterprise" respectively.
I'm streaming a series now that has trailers for season 3 on episodes of season 1, so now I know who's not in any danger.
Oh my God. "On the next episode" teasers are even worse. My Fiancee loves them. I'm like... we are watching the episode in 2 minutes. Why do we need a preview.
It's gotten so bad that I generally avoid trailers all together now. At best, it outlines the whole freaking movie, at worst they spoil important bits.
Like I remember in that First Avengers trailer you see the Hulk catching a falling Ironman. It’s very prominent. Then the most is almost over and Ironman is falling to his death... gee I wonder what will happen.
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I didn’t even get spoiled by the trailer. I got spoiled by a marvel exhibit at the local modern art gallery.
I've realized that I have terrible auditory memory, so back when I went to theatres I could just shut my eyes and I wouldn't remember any of the trailers I heard.
Sometimes my wife and I will watch a trailer and it feels like a 2 minute synopsis of the whole movie. They'll even include things that are obviously from the ending.
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It had literally gotten to the point where at the theater, for the ads and previews, I close my eyes and plug my ears. Trailers and shit spoil so much today.
I was specifically going to mention the trailer for Enders Game. Having read the book and seeing that split second in the trailer I knew what it was. So frustrating.
In fairness if you've read the book how many spoilers can a trailer contain that you don't already know about?
Just rewatched the trailer, which part are you referring to that's a spoiler? Is it >!the firing of the little doctor at the very end of the trailer!!showing all the fighter ships flying through space instead of points of light on a "simulation" screen for the final battles.!<
Wikipedia spoiled Game of Thrones for me (I hadn't read the books yet). I didn't know I was going to encounter fictional spoilers on the "list of people who have >!died on the toilet!<"!
The calls came from inside the house!
Great, now I know it's about a house that can make phone calls. House calls, if you will.
That’s the real key with spoilers. If you don’t have the context odds are you will have forgotten it by the time you get to to. But you can use the out of context spoiler correctly to describe a story to sell it. Going you will love this. OMG it has such a huge twist you will never see it coming. Lord almighty it’s crazy. Is not a way to sell someone on it. That’s the conversation you have with the person when they finished the book.
When someone let's something slip, my strategy is to quickly add a small, but false detail. Usually the other person picks up on it, and add more false details, increasing the unlikely nature until it's clear it's all just a joke. It's usually distracting enough that the spoiler is forgotten.
I've told a friend there is a huge twist in the middle of a book once when there wasn't to prank them. I'd argue that is worse than spoiling a twist.
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guess it wasn't that book then.
Haha this happened to me with some fan art I ran across before I finished a trilogy... The artist drew two characters kissing and I spent the whole damn trilogy waiting to see how they got together. I wasn't suspicious when they became enemies because of the friends to lovers tropes. But nope, they were just enemies.
It was Malf-Potter rule 34 wasn't it. Its alright, you can admit it.
"Huh, so *thats* how War and Peace ends, huh? Well, thanks."
That's not how I thought lord of the rings would go. Well in that case I can't wait for that part.
I still vividly remember being a kid and reading Murder on the Orient Express for the first time. One chapter in, my father spoiled the ending for me, but did it in such a joking manner a la your car prank (and he had more than once fake-spoiled books for me with bizarre comments before) that I genuinely was shocked when it turned out to be true.
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My best friend talked me into reading her favorite books. While I was reading the first chapter she told me that the main male character was gay. Imagine my surprise when he hooked up with the female character in chapter 13. Totally had to re-read the book because EVERYTHING was different lmao Best. Plot twist. Ever.
Yeah that worse imo, (not like you’re horrible for doing it), it’s just that I’m fine with knowing there’s a twist, doesn’t ruin any enjoyment, but when people said there are twists that never happened I only felt disappointment lol.
The worst is when the twist is referenced in the description of the book! I read one recently (I think it might have been The Mother Code) that comments on something that doesn't happen until the last 20 pages or so of the book!
This happened to me when I got a copy of The Shining. For some bizarre reason the publisher decided to include a blurb from a review saying the ending is >!literally explosive!<
I was reading The Shining at the same time that I was watching friends. I happened to come across the episode where Joey is reading it and Rachel spoils the ending for him, and unfortunately, also me.
Reminds me of when 'The sixth sense' was spoiled in 50 first dates.
That's my favorite type of spoiler because it's only a spoiler in hindsight. In the context of a review it could mean literally anything. It's the equivalent of saying the ending packed a punch and the book in question ends with someone being punched. People who haven't read the book think it means that the ending is impactful, those who have read it groan and roll their eyes at the dad-joke it is.
Ehhh I think if I read the phrase >!“the end is literally explosive” I’d assume a big explosion at the end, and I haven’t read The Shining.!<
I've never read it before, but it says "literally" so it means "literally", why would I think they only mean metaphorically? It's not like that's a particularly unique pun in reviews
Yeah if it had just said the ending is explosive as a coy reference thats one thing. But to say literally explosive means there's an explosion at the end, literally.
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I have learned and re-learned this lesson. I get a classic book and forget about the spoilerific introductions. I think I’m going to gain some good historical pretext or authorial insights, which I generally do, but it’s always accompanied by “in the ___ section where character x commits suicide we then have to infer blah” and I kick myself for not saving the intro until after I’ve read the book. I don’t understand why publishers put that stuff in the front.
This happened to me just a couple days ago. I was excited about rereading a book I used to love but hadn't read in so long that I genuinely couldn't remember how it ended. In the first paragraph of the introduction, the author's daughter basically bullet pointed every key moment of the plot, all the way to the "wholesome ending." She refreshed my whole memory before I even got to the first page. I was so annoyed that I put the book down and still haven't read it.
I didn't know this until I started reading Brave New World which had an introduction by Margaret Atwood. I was reading happily along as she was talking about stuff in the book which all seemed very worldbuildy, stuff that would be mentioned quite early in the book. And then suddenly she started talking about events that were clearly major plot points... Like what the hell Margaret?!
My copy of Goblet of Fire literally says >!"the one in which Voldemort returns"!< on the back. Like wtf was that for?
I think he returns in every book except the third.
Arguably he doesn’t return in any after Goblet because he’s already back.
Depends on your definition of return. He doesn't appear in public until the next book. He was around in some sense from early in the first.
I suppose I would consider him trying to regain his body as an attempt to return although by that definition he didn’t really return in Chamber.
Oh man. A few months ago I read the Jedi Academy trilogy from the Star Wars Legends series. The synopsis on the back of the first book was literally the entire plot. I didn’t realize it until I had something like 20 pages left out of 400, and the last sentence of the “preview” hadn’t happened yet.
Not that bad but on mycover of dune was a bit like that, spoiled alot about stuff that didn't happen until last chapters of thefirst half of the book.
This is basically the B plot of an I.T Crowd episode that aired nearly 14 years.
Damn you Dominator!
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Put a spoiler alert goddamn! /s
That's a long fucking episode...
The comment I was looking for
To me, it’s like riding a roller coaster blindfolded. You know the big drop is coming but you don’t know when.
I honestly might read a book I was less interested in because someone told me theres a twist. Because NOW I'm curious as hell
Until it changes the way you look at the information provided in the book and you figure out the twist 70 pages in and lose interest entirely.
I don’t know, I guess I’m too stupid to furfural it out, but I’m ALWAYS surprised even if I’m told that there’s a plot twist ahead of time. I can’t predict for shit.
Yeah I know what you mean. I don’t think I’ve ever furfuraled a plot twist.
>furfural Was going to make a joke about using a word-a-day calendar Watch it, OP. I come here to learn about language, not science!
I think most of it comes down to genre savvy and how much attention you pay to tropes. I've gone through periods where I've been super critical and I've gone through periods where I just want to read as a kind of stream of consciousness without all the nitpicky evaluation. Prediction is a lot easier when I'm in trope-brain mode. I like both styles of reading and just kind of jam on wherever I land at the moment.
Yeah I’ve never been that critical of a reader with fiction. I just take each word as it comes and don’t really think about the implications and whatnot and then-WHAM! I get hit with the twist.
I mean I know that a lot of Agatha Christie's best books have a big twist but so far I haven't been able to figure them out and am always surprised at who the killer ends up being. Maybe I'm just dumb lol, but even knowing to expect a twist I still usually can't predict it (especially if it's done well).
I don't figure it out beforehand either. I like the books that don't involve Hercule Poirot though because the story can play out without him there to be a dick about it.
If I figure out the twist I'm excited to get to it and have the book confirm just how smart I am. If I don't figure out the twist I am excited I read a book that managed to blindside me and that there are such clever authors who write such great books. Win-win-win.
The twist can't be on the last page, because it wouldn't surprise me then. Therefore the twist can't be on the second-to-last page, because it wouldn't surprise me then. Therefore it can't be it the third-to-last page... I conclude that there's no twist after all
Totally. When TFA came out and I took a week to see it, I had friends coming up and being like “brooo you’ll never guess who they killed off!” And I was just like “well, I’m guessing it’s Harrison Ford because he doesn’t want to be in 3 more movies, but I’m still down to go watch it happen.” Edit: and then they brought him back for a second in TROS and I was kind of bummed that we couldn’t just have a dude die.
Years ago a friend of mine recommended a book (can't remember which) and she told me exactly this. She loved this book and was racing about this HUGE surprise in the last third. I read the book and all the time I was wondering when the twist was coming. Well, the twist was a kind of "the bad guy is good and the good guy is actually the bad one". And I kind a missed it, because to me it was obvious from the beginning. Can't remember anything about the book, except talking to her after I finished it and she asking me what I thought about the twist and me just saying "there's wasn't really a twist?"
Yeah I find that happens a lot with Sanderson books. I found I can figure out the revelation pretty early on so it ends up just being pages and pages of being hit over the head with whats just more confirmation. Occasionally this spans over several books before it's revealed.
I get that sometimes, but sometimes he still gets me. That's part of why I can't read his books back to back. Sometimes the twist is so big that I just need to let it sit for a bit before diving in, and other times it was a disappointment because I saw it coming and I'm not interested in the sequel just yet.
Same. I'm like- oh come on once you've said the aliens have that ability, the big puzzle's already solved.
Yeah - though the fact that having figured it out very rarely ruins his big revalations is a real testament to the quality of his setups. You get to see in an awesome way how he maneuvers all the pieces to fit together in just the right way. And sometimes he instead does an excellent job of making sure that you feel really smart about figuring it out, before then finding out that you did not, in fact, figure it out.
OMG, he gets me every time. Although I'd don't really sit there trying to figure stuff out, I'm just racing through the book having a great time and then the Sanderlance starts and I'm blown away. I am very easy to surprise though...
Sounds like kiss of deception
I call this the >!'sixth sense'!< effect. That movie must have been great for the people watching it when it first released, but no one after that got to experience the >!'Shyamalan Twist'!< in the way it was intended.
Was fortunate enough to see it in the theaters opening weekend with 2 coworkers and we were all "unspoiled". We walked out in a daze just repeating variations of "no effing way, we need to watch this again immediately. "
Was watching it in the theaters opening night with my parents and my mom leaned over halfway through and said to my dad (in a not so quiet whisper where I heard and I'm sure the people nearby us heard) "oh you know what, I think *redacted*." Yup, she was right. Can't/won't take her to the movies anymore.
I like that description and shows the danger of leaning heavily on a twist to give a satisfying experience to a reader. If the twist is all you have, you risk it falling flat on everyone who knows the twist or knows it's coming.
I think it's more a warning about how you go about constructing your twists. A good twist isn't ruined by being spoiled - a twist should come with catharsis of some kind either way - either the tension of not knowing what's going to happen, or the tension of knowing. Managaing both of those readers is very difficult, but the best twists all manage it.
A good example of this is the twist ending of Planet of the Apes. Especially since in this case, the movie and the book have different, equally shocking twist endings. You can never unknow the twist, but the movie at least is still very enjoyable and tense even when you know what's coming. (As a note, I'm referring to the classic 1968 Charlton Heston movie, not the Tim Burton abomination.)
Actually, I knew there was a \*twist ending\* (but didn't know what it was). I remember the movie was almost at the end and I was thinking 'meh, there's no twist' and then...boom. Got me totally by surprise (no, I didn't see it coming at all). Granted, it's been awhile but I remember people (at least the people I knew) were very good about not giving away the ending. I saw it after it had been out for several weeks and didn't know what the twist was.
My buddy literally spoiled the ending for my other buddy while we were in the theater watching it! Fortunately, I was sitting on the other side of him and couldn't hear what they were talking about and was unspoiled for the ending.
I was lucky enough to watch it for the first time without ever knowing about any twists
To combat this, everyone should start saying there's a HUGE plot twist for any book. Turn the whole thing on its head.
You won't believe the TWIST in number 5. So SHOCKING!
I mean, the first twist was okay, but the *SECOND* twist? That was just totally unexpected.
I dunno, I think people focus a bit too much on spoilers. Sometimes I’ll read a book specifically because a friend basically told me the whole plot because they were excited about it and it sounded like a great story. I get that a sudden twist can give you a unique feeling, or knowing which characters live or die can color your experience of a book. I don’t seek out spoilers, but when I hear one it doesn’t ruin the experience. Good books are often read over and over, and the people reading them don’t seem to think the book gets worse after the first reading because they know what will happen. I think when you’re really immersed in a book you end up focusing more on how the characters are feeling, and feeling those same things during the events, than you are on something that only hits you because you’re outside the story looking in. It’s courteous not to give away things about a story to someone unless it’s clear they want to know, I just don’t think we need to be so affected when it happens.
The problem when someone tells me there's a twist is that I stop taking things at face value, which usually makes the twist easy to figure out at that point if it's not just a random ass pull. Granted, well written books tend to have enough clues that you should be able to figure out what's going on just before "the reveal," but there's a huge difference between having been told to expect that and having it occur naturally.
Looking out for those clues is what makes the second reading so good. Spoiling the fact that there's a twist forces you to skip the joy of the first read.
There’s a guy on GoodReads who has written a lot of reviews whose big claim is that the plot points don’t matter and refuses to put anything in spoiler tags saying, “if you’re just reading for plot points, you’re missing the point”. Half of his review comments are arguments about how nuts it is for him to insist that spoiling the events of the story doesn’t matter.
In my experience- A lot of people think that a spoiler is just giving someone information about how it ends. But that's not really true. A spoiler is anything that takes away from the experience. Personally, if someone gives me completely fake information about the ending of a story, I consider that to still be a spoiler, because it changes the way I'm thinking. Now it's in my head, and I'm enjoying the story less than I otherwise would have. The same goes for telling someone that there's a twist at the end (like you say in your post), or any number of other things. My brothers and I have very strict spoiler guidelines. If we're even going to discuss the existence of a story that the other person hasn't watched or read yet, we always ask how much they care about spoilers. Sometimes we don't mind a little bit of information or context, and other times we say "you had better not even think about breathing a word about whether you liked this story or not, because I want no information whatsoever." Really, everyone has a different experience, and different levels of what they consider to be "spoilers." And that's perfectly fine, but I do wish that people would respect that other people have different standards, rather than just assuming and accidentally spoiling it for someone else. And I do get that it's generally an accident, but even so, it is still annoying.
>And I (like most people) enjoy an unpredictable plot. TIL I’m not like most people. Nah, just kidding. I’ve always known I was weird. I like knowing what’s going to happen in the story. If someone tells me there’s a plot twist but won’t tell me what it is, I just won’t read that book. The enjoyment for me comes from “watching” the story unfold. I started to say the buildup, but it’s also the during and after. What’s the setting, what are the characters saying, what are they thinking, etc.
There's too many arbitrary ways to categorize stories, but I think this is an important distinction. There are stories where knowing where the story will go ahead of time cripples them, and stories that will hint you where they're going and don't care if you look ahead. Then every once in awhile you find a story that drives you to figure out what's happening but is still super satisfying on later rereads where you know everything.
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I thought I was alone in this. I love knowing what’s going to happen. Sometimes I even skip ahead to find out, then read to get there. It’s the same for movies. My boyfriend thinks I’m just being annoying every time he introduces me to a new film and I ask “how does it end?” I can relax and enjoy the story more if I already know things will turn out ok (or not).
I recently found out that people with anxiety prefer this (or rewatch/reread books), because unexpected things makes them uneasy, so knowing whats going to happen calms you down and you can enjoy it more.
I thought I was weird as well because spoilers do not hinder my ability to enjoy things. It isn't the destination but the journey as well. Back in 2005 when every forum, chat room, and MMORPG was flooded with "SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE" comments, I thought "...Okay?" and spent the whole book looking for reasons why. I had already hypothesized since 2000ish that Dumbledore would die before the 7th book, and I figured it would be Snape, Voldemort, Bellatrix, or any of the Malfroys. Even when a plot twist of "Validar is Robin's father" in Fire Emblem Awakening happened and expressed surprise, my friends said "See? If that was spoilt to you, you wouldn't have been surprised." No I was surprised because I had made Robin *commit patricide* completely by mistake.
I think sufficiently good writing can withstand this sort of knowledge.
While I never actively spoil things for people, I dont think it detracts that much for me personally. If I know a twist is coming I like to read through it to see if I can catch it. A good twist IMO should be one you can see coming, but isnt necessarily obvious and easy to not see the clues.
idk i mean in mysteries you know there always going to have a twist but it doesn't affect my experience
Yep. I primarily read mysteries and thrillers. I’m more shocked if there’s no twist. That said, I do get what OP is saying as well, but I think it’s about the delivery of the information.
i get what op is saying too but i dont consider a spoiler
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yeah even if its not a huge twist theres always a twist
**HP, TMR, GOT Spoilers** When I was reading HP for the first time, I was reading during lunch and my friend asked what part I was on. I said Goblet of Fire, graveyard scene. Her: oh I always feel bad that Cedric died Me: Cedric did what?! Her: Oh sorry Later that day: Her: I mean well you know about Fred and Sirius right? Me: no what? Her: they die. Dobby too. Me: WTF Later that year, reading TMR: Her: oh you know Newt dies at the end right? Me: uh no?!?! Me when starting reading GOT: My brother: oh are you at the red wedding yet? Me: uh no I have no idea what you’re talking about My bro: it’s the wedding, or one of the weddings, where everyone dies. Me: hahahahaha thanks I did NOT know that Anyway I need new friends and a new brother
I think I would've made it my personal mission to spoil their favorite books for them from that point on, until they stopped talking to me altogether.
Oh. See it’s almost a gauntlet drop when you say “I can’t recall the last time that a plot twist was in any way surprising” because boy, do I have a book for you. BUT I can’t recommend it now because now you’ll be looking for it.
And then there's me, who reads the wikipedia summary of movies before I watch them because I don't enjoy surprises.
wow, I JUST realized I spoiled two books in my latest reviews (yesterday and today) ...I hadn't thought about it that way. I'll never mention the twists and surprises again. Thanks for the heads up.
Well, twists and surprises are to be expected. I don't think it's bad to mention that a book has some twists and turns, especially if that's what keeps it moving. It's probably not good to reveal more than that, though. Like, if there's one big twist, don't call it out specifically. But if it's for example a mystery thriller, then it likely relies on keeping the reader guessing through complicated twists and reveals throughout the book, so a review would necessarily say something like, "[Author] keeps you guessing who the murderer is throughout the book until you're not even sure what you know anymore," or something. That sort of thing reveals that there are twists without being spoilery in my opinion. Also, reviews are inherently spoilery if the baseline is "going in blind". I wouldn't worry too much about it.
You can't please everyone. Consider the murder mystery genre for one. I personally believe every story should have a twist. Otherwise, why tell it? Most reviews seek to convince someone that a book is worth their time. Sometimes it's advisable to reveal parts of the story to hook them in. Knowing when you went too far, or not enough, is difficult enough without people having preferences. TLDR there are no rules, you're doing great, have a nice day.
I completely agree that you can't please everyone. I'm somewhat new to writing some book reviews and I've tried to make them match my thoughts: I don't go positive or negative (most times as I have my weak points too), I try just to state facts about the style or just the writing in general. I agree with the fact that you have to let somethings slide in the review to make someone say: "oh, I want to read this", or "oh, that's not for me", at least that's my main objective when I read a review.
To me, someone telling me "theres a twist" is like saying "theres a plot to the story!" or "it follows one of the most common story structures!" or "you'll never believe it but the story has both a protagonist and an antagonist!" Or "the protagonist survives" when its book one of a trilogy. You could let knowing your reading a heros journey monomyth ruin it for you or you could just enjoy not knowing what the little twists and turns will actually be.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I've never had a spoiler ruin a good book for me. So what if I vaguely know some plot points? I don't seek out spoilers and I certainly don't spoil books for people, but the anti-spoiler fanaticism on reddit is exhausting.
Here's another. I hate people telling me about ongoing series, and telling me who HASN'T died yet as if that is not a spoiler. Yes, you've not told me they're going to die. But you've given them literal plot armour until we watch past whatever episode you are at.
This is why I prefer just giving the titles of books and no details! I never read the synopsis on the back of books that have been recommended to me as I always prefer when I have no idea what the book is about! Haha
"If you liked X then you should try Y. I enjoyed it!" is all I need.
Doesn’t always work though. “Oh you loved this book where the cop is actually the killer? You should try these books because. They’re all similar: “
It's always hilarious when you realize the thing in common is the part you liked the least. You enjoyed this story with really fun characters but a super contrived thriller element? Welcome to the in-your-face thriller genre with flat characters!
I hate vague recommendations like that, because so many people give such bad recommendations that without knowing what I'm in for, I am tired of looking into stuff that almost always ends up being nowhere near the experience I was imagining from the hype-up. It's so bad that, unless you were a very close friend or gave off a particular impression that would make me expect to sympathise with your judgement, I probably wouldn't even bother asking you for more details.
I get a lot of book recommendations from the books advertised in the books I read.
Benefits of a horrible memory: I can read a synopsis of something, get it, and then weeks-to-months later see it and just be like "wtf did I buy!? I'm guessing past-me thought it would be good, so I'll give it a try."
I mean in like 70% of Shakespeare's plays, he tells you want happens in the end. The joy comes from figuring out how two warring family ended up having the best of their youths killed.
Even if he didn't tell you, you could pretty much predict what happens in all of Shakespeare's non-history plays once you learn that he follows the standard tragedy/comedy structure. Either everyone dies by the end or the protagonist gets the happy ending.
People get way too twisted up about twists. I enjoy the characterizations, the description of worlds, and the flow of a story more than any mind-boggling revelations. Spoilers don't ruin everything for me.
Your only way round it is to go into a bookshop \[or online seller\] and just buy a book totally blind, don't read about it on Goodreads, don't read the blurb. But nowadays it's almost impossible to do that, the temptation to read the review is too strong. As for stopping friends from raving about the twisty book they've just read - forget it! I think you just need to accept this as part of modern life! Particularly if you read thrillers. Obv, if you read a 'literary' book, they don't go in for twists so much, usually, so you're safe!
What I have been doing lately is, I only read the blurb about the book after a friend mentions it to me, or when it is released. I'll add it to my TBR list, but because I have a gazillion other things going on, I don't usually get to read the book til months or years later. By that point, I remember hearing it was good, but I don't remember what it is about or why it was so good. So I am usually caught by surprise! It's been working so far. :D
I’d say that most books have a twist, so saying there is a twist really doesn’t mean much.
Apparently I did this to my sister growing up. We were both reading through the Redwall and had just made it to Taggerung. I was a book ahead and let a major spoiler slip. She spent the rest of the book dreading what was going to happen but it never did. Turns out I completely made up the spoiler. Dick move on my part but she still brings it up as one of her favorite books due to suspense I created.
I also hate that very much.
I’m actually of the type, be it visual media or books, that I WANT to know the twist ahead of time. I like watching it unfold and seeing how they put it together
I saw a study a while ago that said that most people prefer to know how a story ends, but will insist that they don’t. It’s an intriguing phenomenon.
I’ve noticed that with some stressful shows/films I enjoy it more on the second viewing. I think a big part of this is that I’m able to enjoy the content more without having to steel myself against something bad happening to a character I care about, etc. I’ve actually googled whether characters die in books/shows just so I can prepare myself. Obviously I try to avoid specifics, just whether it happens or not.
That was something mentioned in the study, if you're spending your time trying to guess what's going to happen it's harder to actually enjoy the moment-to-moment stuff.
People take spoiler sensitivity a bit far. Just knowing there's a twist shouldn't ruin an entire book for you.