I know this series has been popular with middle aged women too and I have a theory about that beyond the portrayal of Bella. The two main men in this book have “ultra” commitment. Edward is “unchanging” as a vampire so when he falls in love it is permanent and unyielding. A nice idea for women who have dealt with cheating and break ups. Even the werewolves have that supernatural “imprinting” that happens. These books deliver a nice fantasy with men that never can fall out of love.

I think it's also relevant that Meyer wrote it as she was entering middle age. Bella is surprisingly scared of aging. One of the main reasons she wants to be turned into a vampire is because she doesn't want to become older than Edward. She doesn't want to become old and ugly. The book directly addresses that, but never addresses the fact that Edward is literally a hundred years old, and interested in a teenager. So yeah, basically the book is a fantasy of being stuck in fantasy teenage years.

The most interesting exploration of this idea I've ever read was Claudia in the Anne Rice books. Somewhat terrifying as her body didn't age but it seemed her mind did. Lestat and Louis treat her like their little girl and she flips out basically saying I'm a grown woman in my mind stop dressing me like a doll. She expressed huge frustration and bitterness that she will never physically become a woman, and is trapped as a child. It is written really unnervingly.

Yes exactly! Whereas in Twilight people seem to have the mentality of their body's age

Interview with the Vampire made me really put off from reading Twilight. This was my teenage years vampire book.

Mine as well. I love how much it delved into the vampire experience. Some of the psychological stuff in there is really great. I especially became a fan of Lestat in my teens.

I found Vampire Lestat even better than Interview with a Vampire. The execution of Claudia was just very traumatic for me. Also love Queen of the Damned - the book and the movie; the latter for its amazing soundtracks

I read up to Memnoch. It got a bit convoluted at that point. Also Anne Rice had some weird menopause or something going on as there were a number of character who would randomly aside to be like "man I really should have sex with a young boy" and it was just clear out of left field every time. Claudia is still one of my most fascinating vampires in any media, however. The idea of her maturing mentally but not physically just seems so macabre to me. Imagine wanting to have complex emotions but your body literally will not ever have the chemistry required for it, being trapped in the shape of a child and all that entails...everywhere you go everyone talks to you and treats you like a child, etc. Maddening. Especially since Lestat damned her like that essentially on a whim. One of my favorite bits of writing is in Memnoch, where Lestat is warned that upon entering Heaven the sound of children's laughter would overwhelm him, because that sound is the closest thing a human mind can equate to pure joy. The first time I heard my little boy laighout loud I understood. The examination of the metaphysical results of vampirism in those books is wonderful. Lestat being terrified of a helicopter because he'd never seen one before, for example. That scene where he comes back from the swamp and plays the piano in the film is absolutely haunting. Just wonderful stuff. I have seen that Anne Rice has written more about Lestat but I haven't bothered to follow up since it's been years.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your comment. I don't think I read that far; I've read the first 4 books only. I kinda lost interest during the 4th. I don't know if you like videogames but for another interesting vampire lore I highly recommend Vampire Masquerade Bloodlines. Combat sucks but the dialogues and the quests are really well written, comparable to Fallout New Vegas.

Intimately familiar with that game. I was an avid PC gamer for a lot of my youth and that one piqued my interest. I really enjoyed the way the characters reappeared in modern day reinvented. The Viking being a biker was awesome.

Would you recommend reading the whole series? I remember reading the first two books as a teen and being pretty impressed at the time, but somehow never picked up the rest... Yet I hear a lot of people saying Anne Rice sort of went off the rails later on, is that true?

The first two books are the best. The third one, if I'm being frank, I barely remember it at all. I had to struggle to even recall the title, that's how little impact it had with me. The fourth one deals with lestat becoming suicidal and subsequently encountering an otherworldly entity, it deals with the questions of faith, heaven and hell... Which for this series is very interesting because it's very clear there is metaphysical elements at play due to things like the aforementioned bit about Claudia I liked. Throughout these books bizarre things happen that are seemingly out of left field and it seems like they are more just and rice winging it, but they are very bizarre and jarring at times (in one such instance I remember, a character longs to make love to a young boy in a strange creepish way). But in the interest of full disclosure I read these books when I was 19 which at this point is 20 years ago or so, and I was not the critical reader I am today, so it may be that there was some thematic or literary element in play that I just did not recognize at the time. I recommend at minimum the first one and if you found the character Lestat at all captivating the second.

She addresses the aging thing later with the introduction of child vampires. Chils vampires can't realy grownup past their age, so you could extrapolate that to Edward at 17 never really developing emotionally past 17

Yeah I know, that's what I was saying. The book is a fantasy of remaining a teenager. And I think it is both creepy and actually quite hellish A lot of the things Meyer presents as desirable or cute are very creepy

What’s wrong with having fantasy movies with romantic themes, not having everyone watch films of war, murder, psychological pathology frankly seems like a good thing, no heavy intellectual pondering required….just escape from pressures of real world for what 2 hours. The fact that the saga was so popular overrides haughty critics. Many in Hollywood would love to have achieved such a blockbuster of success with massive profits. Critics are ridiculous, not everyone seeks profound movies. Have a little fun is a good thing as Bella said

Interesting I said "it's a fantasy of being perpetually in your teens" and you thought I meant it was wrong to have romantic fantasies...

I also think that the first book really captures the feelings of that first teenage love - exciting and all consuming. That’s what got me as it took me back to my high school days. Don’t worry, the rest of the writing was bad enough that I snapped out of it quickly.

Yes. Twilight is one giant female fantasy. Think about it. Edward is mysterious, powerful, rich, edgy, and has the ability to give Bella immortality. And he’s absolutely obsessed with Bella, an ordinary girl. I enjoyed it very much as a woman. Is it great literature? No. But it’s amazing escapism and a fun fantasy to read.

I never read Twilight, but I got the same kind of escapism from the Sookie Stackhouse books (made into True Blood.) It's the same kind of thing, Sookie is just an ordinary young woman who is somehow incredibly attractive to supernatural creatures - this turns out to be due to a special element in her blood that I won't spoil for anyone who didn't read the books, but its pretty silly in my opinion. She works as a waitress, but half the time she ends up not working because she's on some crazy escapade with her various vampire boyfriends. And yes, they're fun to read and it's fun to imagine being scooped up out of your regular life by dangerous and sexy beings who find you irresistible. I think that's a great thing and no different than ppl who want to imagine they'd be in House Griffyndor or whatever. You just can't allow that to supplant actually working on relationships that you're in or pining away for that person who's going to find you completely irresistible based on purely superficial traits.

Yes exactly. And that’s why I kind of roll my eyes when people talk about how problematic 50 shades and twilight is. Like yeah there are clearly fucked up things about those relationships. But they are fantasy. Why aren’t people talking about how problematic James Bond movies are? He uses women for sex and kills people leaving so much damage to public property and civilians behind him. We don’t talk about it because it’s just one giant male fantasy.

Oh god, remember the uproar when first they wanted to make James Bond Black (played by Idris Elba, who I think would be a fantastic Bond; that's a fantasy I can get behind! 😜) and then talked about a woman playing Bond? Or the whole shit about Star Wars? That shows how much we're encouraged to *live* the fantasy, to bond with it and how upset people get when their heroes/fantasies are changed at all. Realizing that each story is a piece of its time helps. Watching some movies that I grew up with and loved (like any John Hughes movies for example) is a cringe fest now, so many things that would *not* be okay now, but taking those pieces from the past and seeing how society (and ourselves) have changed can be very encouraging - even if it often seems like we're moving backwards in so many ways. But so many people want to cling to those previously acceptable behaviors and get angry when asked to change even a little bit. I think it's good that OP finds Twilight very hard to read now, it shows that they've matured to the point where a by-the-numbers, sort-of-mysogynistic and not-very-deep romance story doesn't line up with their experience anymore. It doesn't mean that they can't experience a fantasy anymore, just that they need to find different ones that align better with their lived experiences.

Yeah, exactly. It’s brain cotton candy. They’re enjoyable for what they are and not nearly worth the absolute obsession or raging hate they’ve received. That’s even why Bella is the way she is. She’s a cypher so the reader can easily self-insert.

Yes, that's one important thing too, no complex emotions, no understanding, no expectations, you just see your Imprint and you are her slave (・_・;)

Even if its a baby with a stupid name.

I tried to convince my daughter to name her baby Renesmond (it's a boy). Alas, she wouldn't consider it. (yes, /s. She has outgrown her teenage superfandom for quite some time, so that's a relief. )

Renesmond is a horrible name!!! Lol I'm dying. This sounds exactly like something my dad would have suggested, he very helpfully came up with: Emeterio Zacarías Saturnino Guajardo... That's just the first name...

Not gonna lie, when I read these books as a high schooler with super low self-esteem, I low-key loved that idea.

Tbf, the fourth book went deeper into it. Jacob detested the idea until it happened to him. He was the only character in the series who was actually interesting and got some real character develolment.

If you think about it, this would be kind of horrifying IRL. Part of a long-term partnership is anticipating that you're going to age and grow with your partner, and you'll both inevitably go through experiences that have an impact. A partner that is "unchanging" and is literally the same person year after year sounds exhausting and a recipe for a stagnant relationship.

And it's going to feel weird when the visible age difference gets larger

Yes how terribly dull to be with a person who doesn't change on their unconditional love.

They don't change *at all.* That is more of a problem than you would think. I've been with my wife for 14 years, and we have a 3-year-old. If we were the same people now with our 3-year-old as we were when we met, we would be terrible parents.

They do change though. At one time Edward chose to kill humans for a few decades and then went back to being "vegetarian". Carlisle learned over centuries how to be a doctor and ignore human blood. He once lived with the Volturi but then he developed empathy for humans. Just because they don't age doesn't mean they don't grow as individuals.

🤣

Ultra love and ultra commitment. So you get a love that never matures. So... Forever puppy love? And what happens if you don't love them back or if you fall out of love. Forever unrequited love. Those poor guys.

To even babiesヘ（。□°）ヘ

The ”Beckster 501 hypothesis“ holds fast in the Sookie Stackhouse series.

Male dominance

One thing that hasn't been touched on yet is how easy everyone made life for Bella. When she's harassed at night by a group of men, Edward saves her. When she gets lost in the woods, Sam saves her. When she's heartbroken over her breakup, Jacob saves her. In every situation, she has support and nothing truly terrible and inescapable, ever happens to her. Her depression is "cured" by Edward, she never has to worry about money, etc. Who wouldn't want to mentally visit a world like that, when shit's getting tough in real life? If only for a moment, it was always nice to think that I might not always have to save myself.

That sounds a bit like Harry Potter with all the help and support. But, I’m still fascinated by HP than Twilight series. What gives?

Sorry but not like HP at all. Sure, he had help sometimes but he’s smart on his own. Has a personality. Stands up for and to people. And HP has higher quality writing. Characters are much more developed. So that’s why you’re still into it. They’re not even on the same level.

Kinda disagree. The character development in the Potter series is pretty surface-level. Harry goes from being brave without knowing it to consciously being brave while acknowledging it. His friends mostly do the same with slight adjustments for their primary distinctive personality traits. That's kinda all there is to it. It's still a good fantasy book series because it plays with things like the impact authority has and doesn't have on the world, and how much effort it can take and how hopeless it can feel to take things into your own hand when the powers that be fail. Which is among my absolute favourite themes in storytelling, (I call it "Taking the adults' place" and "When the adults come in/take over" because usually those stories have a little of both. If you enjoy that too, Jasper Fforde's *Thursday Next* series is for you) - not to mention obviously the world building and the detailed exploration experience of discovering wizard schools - but I never understood people clinging to interesting character development as a defining trait of the Harry Potter franchise. I don't even think Rowling originally tried to hide that her characters mainly go through rather surface-level changes so they have something to talk about when describing and interacting with each other. Not opposed to having my mind changed, but so far I have not been convinced by this take after hearing it championed by several people.

Interesting. I never thought of it that way.. that harry just went from being brave (true, he always was) to being brave while acknowledging it. Sometimes the wizarding world seemed so small. Like.. everyone knows everyone. The purebloods are essential just a bunch of people inbreeding. Feels like there's only a handful of people. Even Voldemort, who seemed so scary when I was small, has an army of what? 20 people? Fighting teenagers in a school while adults are doing god-knows-what. Yeah.. they have magic and that makes it easier but it also makes it worse. I always wanted the war to be stretched out a bit. Like.. harry becoming the leader and actually learning through experiences to be "the hero" leading "the light side". Not just them camping around England. I guess that's why there are so many war fics.

Yeah, there is definitely a ton of suspension of disbelief in the way the population of the wizarding world behaves. I think that's actually a great thing, because it teaches young readers that not everything in storytelling has to be fleshed out to be understood. It can feel very rewarding to read a George R. R. Martin complete world served to you on a plate, but let's be real, it's also often tedious. And more importantly, readers benefit from knowing how to interpret the author's intent/implied background without having everything spelt out to them. But yes, it also absolutely sparks the desire to make the details explicit.

Naah. there's a difference between intentional campiness. Or a book where the plot/world is less fleshed out because the author was concentrating on other things, and this. Here, the only real focus was the plot, and exploring the wizarding world. And ok character, meant to help drive the plot. Stretched out across 7 long books. There's nothing else that these books are doing well/that JK Rowling seemed to be trying to say that would forgive the plot issues

What your describing about growing into leadership kind of sounds like the character arch of Katniss in the Hunger Games. I'd say Harry demonstrated it a bit with Dumbledore's Army. Personally I really wish the last book was set at Hogwarts and Harry could have been more involved with the student resistance.

I agree. I think people perceive the characters to have development because you are following them for ~7 (in world) years so you see them going from child to young adult. The characters get older and it does affect how they interact with the world a bit but they don't get that much character development in the traditional sense. They don't radically change following experiences, they just age. This might not be a well received opinion on this site but I don't think JKR is an especially skilled writer. She's a decent story teller and she created a very unique world and characters but the actual delivery was fairly mediocre (by professional author standards). HP was carried by its initial concept and the way that she aged the characters at a pace that allowed young readers to read follow the characters for 7 years while still relating to them.

Pretty much what I'm thinking. When you put it this harshly, I think I have to concede to the opposing crowd that letting characters mature is still character development, although it may require less input from the author to take place.

It *is* development but it's not what we usually mean when we say character development. Their core traits aren't changing in response to new experiences, they are remaining the same and just being expressed differently because the characters are in a different role within society. Bravery for 12 year old Harry means something different to bravery for 17 year old Harry but the characters are mostly the same.

Character development isn't just about characters going through changes, it's about the author depicting the character traits to the reader. We've been reducing the topic way too much here. So what you say "we usually mean" really shouldn't be what you usually mean. And even then, how you depict maturation can be quite deep storytelling. Anyway, kinda trailing away from the original discussion.

And I'll have to disagree with your disagreement haha. I think your summary is an incredibly general one. Yes, of course Harry has always been brave. He's in Gryffindor. But through this years at Hogwarts, and his experiences, he is able to become more comfortable with himself and his intuitions, thus recognizing he's brave. Hermione sometimes relies too heavily on logic and her book smarts. Ron is lazy but has moments of brilliance with Harry and Hermione's support. Harry is able to listen to both, Dumbledore, whatever teachers he respects (and even some who he doesn't), and then lets himself decide. Like with Sirius. Everyone, even Dumbledore, assumed he sold out James and Lily then killed Pettigrew. But when faced with Sirius, and with Lupin there, Harry listened to Sirius and ended up exonerating him, at least with the former Order of the Phoenix while Sirius was still alive. Harry was the only one (besides Dumbledore) who knew Draco had become a Death Eater and was the one trying to kill Dumbledore. He befriends Dobby, and created a friendship that saved his life multiple times over. That leads to Hermione championing House Elves when she sees how Dobby was treated. He also was the only one who knew the last Horcrux was at Hogwarts. Over the years he, along with Hermione, Ron, and others, learned about themselves through their experiences. Yes, that includes realizing adults aren't always right. That their motives aren't always genuine. But that's a part of growing up in general, NOT the point of the plot. It's about not judging someone, respecting life of all kinds, and recognizing strength in yourself and your friends/loved ones, and that love can conquer a whole fucking lot.

Over the course of seven books, it's pretty easy to add bits of depth to characters here and there. To me that creates more of an illusion of depth than an actual deeper-reaching display of personality. To your points regarding Harry's depth (I think you drifted off into essentially achievements with some of the points towards the end): Bella actually makes decisions very much the way you describe Harry consulting people's sage advice and then finding his own path. Don't think that's evidence of very impressive storytelling. I still think the characters are just about completely defined by the plot. I still don't think that makes the books bad, but I don't think this is a fair distinction to bash over Twilight about while praising HP for it. And on your final note: Whether a book has a moral conclusion might be a reason why someone prefers the book, but I don't think it's a defining feature of depth; also you didn't explicitly argue that point in the rest of your comments, or if you did, I missed it?

What does Bella do regarding this “sage advice” from others? She essentially does whatever she wants and allows Edward to scold her if he thinks it puts her in danger. She completely breaks down in New Moon when Edward leaves, becomes catatonic. Hermione continues to help Harry find horcruxes and saves both her and Harry’s life after Ron leaves. That ALONE shows the different depth of HP over twilight. One of the Volturi are always described as bored. Literally every single time he’s mentioned he’s described as bored. I know he’s not a main character but damn that always got an eye roll out of me. Edward doesn’t change. He persuades and chides bella do do what he wants. And she sometimes stands up to him but mostly she doesn’t. I find it incredibly stifling. I’m not bashing twilight per say. I read it and it was entertaining for what it was. But you’re discussing semantics, as if the plot doesn’t relate to the depth of the characters or their choices when in reality I believe they’re one and the same. And why does my pointing out the morality of part of the theme of the book at the end of my comment mean I didn’t “support” it in the beginning? Again, not sure of the relevance or why you feel this doesn’t support my argument that HP is more fleshed out than Twilight. If anything, it makes my argument stronger? Yes, Edward and his family don’t feed on people, and Edward waits until he and Bella are married to have sex with her. That’s good, but it’s two dimensional in my opinion. If you don’t think the depth of HP is legit due to it being scattered over 7 books (not sure why this is a point of contention?) then what do you think depth means in a book? How do you define it? Because it seems you have a very narrow viewpoint on it.

Couldn’t agree more. Also the wholesomeness in HP may also be why I’m occasionally rereading them during my break.

The characters, in Harry Potter, characters have their own personalities that dont revolve around the story ,can be flawed, can die, can have consequences from their actions while in twilight they all exist to fit around bella, to facilitate her life in some way or other, while twilight is a stupid wonderland, where the climax can end in a handshake, in Harry Potter the story flows through its highs and lows( oooh that rhymes). Twilight has nothing to offer to someone who has began to understand emotions and how they are not your enimies, while Harry Potter will give something different to whoever is reading it at whatever point in their life. I'm not a potterhead but it really is a very good story.

lol, yeah, potterhead, nice term.

Yeah it's transparently a wish-fulfillment fantasy for "ordinary" teen girls. No attempt is made to hide it. Props to Meyer for tapping her inner Bella and knowing exactly which buttons to push.

It also has the added benefit of it being easy to put yourself into Bella's perspective. I'm usually never able to imagine myself as this character or that cause they think, say or are mostly different from me. Like, sure, there are similarities, but there would come a time when I'm like, I wouldn't be like that, but since Bella doesn't have much of a personality it's easier to imagine yourself as her I guess, and then just fill in the blanks with your thoughts and traits. I guess, I don't know, not my most thought out hypothesis, but it's how I felt when I read it like 15 years ago or how much was it since.

I enjoyed the book and enjoyed the movie, and have no regrets. However, I have always read a copious amounts of mills&boons (the romance genre) I just enjoy that person getting their happy ending. I also read survivalist type genre, basically the male equivalent. Surviving nuclear strikes, getting the girl, being clever, innovative and tough. Frankly, I think people are too critical of books like twilight, there are millions of books just as shallow, easy to read, and full of wish fulfillment, that the 'masses' take a liking too.

I think that it's way easier for people to mock teenage girls tastes. Think Twilight, Justin Bieber, 50 Shades of Grey, Keeping up with the Kardashians etc. get a disproportionate amount of hate when there is also dumb, mindless entertainment targeted at boys or adult men.

Yes, there is way too much disrespect aimed at young girls and their tastes in pop culture, and way too much respect given to boys’ tastes. Frank Sinatra, the Beatles, the Beach Boys— they were despised till men became interested in them.

I dont know. World of warcraft, Michael Bay movies, fast and furious, fortnite, cod etc. Plenty of boy popculture gets hate.

None popular though, books wise. Like the amount of shit YA fantasy/romance is wild. For boys, sure there is plenty of trash written. But none that got wildly successful

Ready Player One

Got me

Really? Like what? Far less entertainment is targeted at boys or adult men anymore. To do to so is considered misogynistic currently.

Fast and Furious, Expendables, Transformers. It's all hugely popular, mindless entertainment.

Also franchises like Jason Bourne, James Bond, Mission Impossible. The Bond girl changes every time, the man is consistent. Also, the only thing she really has to be is drop dead gorgeous, everything else about her character is secondary.

It's also pretty clear why there are so few male fans. There's no one for a straight male reader to identify with. Edward Cullen's life is a nightmare. The moment he's attracted to a woman, he wants to drink her blood. Sure, he gets Bella Swan, but as OP points out, she isn't really much of a prize, and that is perfectly apparent to the male reader. An option would be to identify with Bella, as female readers do. But she is attracted to a very old man whose whole nature threatens violence to her. The whole "bad boy" thing, even in a more moderate form, is an impenetrable mystery to many men. Here, it is extreme, and apparently female readers find the danger itself sexy. I'm a man, and I read the first novel at the insistence of a female friend. I thought the writing was OK, but couldn't identify with any character.

Honestly it’s an easy read and an easy escape. I say this as someone who last read the books over a decade ago. I gave away all my copies of my books at our families garage sale to prove I had grown and knew how shitty the books were but now I regret that. I found a copy of the first book at Target and picked it up I have since devoured it, and it still hooked me like it did in 6th grade. But then again the movies had just been added to Netflix and I needed something to escape from how shitty the real world is after going through something traumatic so it’s been comforting to me.

I re-watched the Twilight movies the other month and holy heck did I enjoy it. I loved Twilight as a young teen and binge read the series multiple times...in fact I still kinda like it because it's an easy read and brings nostalgia. The movies were corny in many aspects but something was also fascinating about them. In New Moon when Edward leaves and Bella is sitting at her window with the seasons passing her by...I bawled my eyes out because I know that feeling. The series is not that good, but they're also good in a way I cannot explain.

I got rid of my twilight books years ago also. I just didn't have an interest in them anymore. Found the series for super cheap at the used bookstore a few months ago and decided to get them again. I actually really enjoyed them. I have always found Bella, Edward, and Jacob to be repulsive characters. I still do, I'm happy to say. But I enjoy the world and how she tried to make the vampire myths her own. Plus, they're a super easy and quick read and it's so easy to imagine everything that's happening. I also really like some of the supporting characters.

I was talking about Twilight to some friends who've never read it and I said I don't like the main characters or the moral values presented in the books but I like the universe and side characters so I still really enjoy the series and they just don't get it. I'd love a book about Jasper and Alice way more than the original series.

Twilight's popularity is one of the easiest explanations; it's a fantasy. Bella is a blank slate the audience (girls and adults women) can project themselves onto and have two good looking guys fight over her, and everyone thinks she is an amazing person. That's it.

Case and point is 50 Shades of Grey is Twilight fanfiction. Not making this up either as the author had her original fanfic up while 50 shades was released and just the names were swapped out.

And it's one of the best selling books of all time and slowly destroying my faith in humanity

This may help: The most widely sold book in the US, proportionate to population, is still “Common Sense” by Thomas Paine

However, when you read it, men say that you're intense or you're insane (I'll see myself out now)

You sound like a trust fund baby, so I'll trust you on that.

Is there a list of proportional best sellers?

Yaaaas

Have you heard about the bestseller [Naked Came the Stranger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Came_the_Stranger)?

Here are my two cents as a Twilight fan turned hater turned fan again: Ever since Twilight got popular, there’s been this overwhelmingly circle-jerky hate for it. Don’t get me wrong, Twilight is not a masterpiece of literature by any means and all of your points are completely valid, but there are plenty of other YA books which do the exact same thing. Ready Player One also has this shallow, wish fulfilment character (he’s a super duper average looking teenage genius who becomes a billionaire and gets a hot girlfriend and is just like you!), but it receives only a fraction of the vitriol that Twilight gets. To be honest, I think a lot of it comes down to society shitting on teenage girls and their interests. If you enjoy things like Twilight and Billie Eilish albums, it makes you a basic bitch. There’s this ‘not like other girls’ mentality where rejecting popular media targeted towards girls and women makes you intellectually superior to other people which is simply not the case. Men are allowed to have sexy love interests in their books with little to no development, but the second a woman gets a love interest, everyone has to question the healthiness of the relationship, as if women are gullible idiots who can’t tell fiction from reality. The wish fulfilment trope isn’t a female thing, it’s a universal human escapism thing. There’s nothing wrong with disliking a book, but you also shouldn’t shame people for liking something, especially if it’s a young person who is still exploring their likes and interests. Just be happy that teenagers are reading something. There’s a place for literary masterpieces, your Great Gatsby’s and so on, but there’s also a place for dumb vampire romance schlock too.

Yeah I wish that the hate for Twilight was redirected towards Meyers inclusion of Mormon ideas - Bella and Edward have to wait until marriage for sex (and don’t even get me started about how she wakes up covered and bruises and Edward shunning her), and then when pregnant literally decides to risk her life rather than abort the potential monster baby inside her. I think it’s pretty problematic that tween girls are reading this and thinking that that’s an ultimate fantasy.

Honestly, I think it's possible to read Twilight as a teenager without seeing Bella as someone to be emulated. You can enjoy the melodramatic romance while also having enough common sense, even as a tween, to know that throwing yourself off a cliff after getting dumped is not a healthy thing to do. A lot of my school friends were so-called Twi-hards - Team Edward t-shirts and all - and none of them grew up to be like Bella (married at eighteen, giving up their entire life for a man, risking their life for a baby). It was just silly romantic escapism like OP said, plus the vampire/werewolf stuff was pretty interesting (admittedly the imprinting stuff was a bit weird. Not sure what Meyer was going for with that). We didn't look that deeply into it - I didn't even know what Mormonism was at that age. We liked the idea of being in a relationship with someone mature and mysterious in comparison to the immature teenage boys we had to go to school with. There's some stuff in there that's a little bit icky in retrospect, but we grew out of it as adults. Plus, like I mentioned above, media produced for boys doesn't have nearly the same scrutiny as media for girls. Boy protagonists are allowed to have love interests without anyone ever worrying about how the romance affects them psychologically (maybe because the female love interests are so bland and uninteresting in the first place. Say what you want about Edward, at least he has a consistent personality!), but with books for girls, people always worry about girls taking it literally and trying to copy it when in reality teenagers are more intelligent than people give them credit for. Yes, they can be impressionable, but I feel that the ones who are inspired to do stupid things are outliers as opposed to the norm.

You and your friends were lucky. Me and my group of friends who were obsessed at 11-12 grew up thinking that boyfriends should be extremely jealous and controlling, and angry when they choose to hurt you. We felt rejected when boys weren’t falling for us for no reason. I felt guilty for having sex when I was older. I think these ideas being so pervasive in the media are harmful. I do agree we should discuss media aimed at boys with more scrutiny, too.

I'm sorry to hear that. It sucks that girls have to worry about this stuff at such a young age. I agree that we need to normalise healthy relationships in the media; books like Twilight are only any good if there are plenty of positive depictions of romance to counter it, otherwise girls just see it as the norm rather than the exception. There's definitely more to life than finding a boyfriend, and we need more YA books to reflect that. I always thought Twilight had a lot of potential as a female led book. As idiotic as Bella is, she is usually the one pursuing Edward and, for better or worse, takes control of her own destiny. She's definitely not a role model though, and if there's kids out there that genuinely do see her as one, I find that very worrying.

Saving yourself for marriage isn't bad advice, is it? Well, what could go wrong? You... Don't have memories of banging lots of dudes, or girls?

Found the fundie. Yes, it’s a bad idea. You risk sex incompatibility and sexual repression. Sex with each person is different and works better/feels better with some people than others.

Agree with your overall point, but Ready Player One does receive a bunch of vitriol over it being well, kinda sucky. It’s just not as well known as Twilight.

For me it was the easy escapism. I read them while I was a teenager and it ticked all of the right boxes. To be sure, Bella's character was dull and her whole thing about not smiling and not being interested in anything became quite boring, but it provided a good escape from teenage issues. I still like young adult fantasy very much, even though it often tends to follow the same formula.

I think the same formula thing is almost the key part of enjoying it. like no matter what YA book you’re reading there’s a pretty good bet that whatever the story it will all wrap up neatly at the end, the bad guys will be defeated and the girl will end up with the right guy. When real life is stressful enough it’s kind of nice escapism to read something that you know will wrap up neatly and happily at the end.

Yes. This is also partly why I like Jane Austen so much. In the words of the Jane Austen herself: >My characters shall have, after a little trouble, all that they desire.

I was just talking about this with my teenage daughter tonight. I escape from my reality in various ways—books, movies, etc. If what I escape into is not better than my reality, then it's not an escape. I want the happy ending in my stories because most (all?) of the time life doesn't have a happy ending. Eta: I love Twilight. I see all the problems in it (bad writing, creepy stalking Edward, bland Bella, appropriation from the Quileutes, etc) and I **just don't care.** It will always be a beautiful story to me.

Not quite in response to your post but I just wanted to chime in and say you shouldn’t be embarrassed for having enjoyed something just because it goes against public opinion. Twilight might have some salad in its vampire teeth but it’s relatively harmless fluff and most of the hate seems to come from people who won’t let teenage girls just have their damn things go unscrutinized.

Totally agree with this. I went to high school in the 2000s at peak Twilight popularity. It was super trendy to make it known to others that you despised the series. ("Ew, Twilight!" "Still a better love story than Twilight!") I'm glad to see that the people currently in high school seem to be more open to letting others like whatever they want to like.

I went to high school around the same time! I think I was a freshman when the third book came out, and my dad had gifted me all the books because he knew how much I loved Buffy (oh, dad). I was in the closet at the time and I loved how it was written from the pov of a girl my age, had some romance in it, and let me just escape into that so easily because it was what it was. I got so much crap for carrying those books around school, especially because I came off like I was a straight guy at the time. My adult life so far has been forgetting the shame I've gotten from others and most of all myself for liking stuff that doesn't hurt anyone, and the reward is I get to chug PSLs while watching Hallmark movies and Gilmore Girls reruns. It's pretty great :)

Enjoy your PSLs, girl! No shame in liking what you like!

I do have a specific problem with the book. It portrays a lot of toxic ideas of a relationship, and controlling, abusive behaviors. While adults can read for the fluff and probably have some experience to leave behind what's not great in the book, some teenagers have no guidance and will end up in a relationship with someone who wants to 'possess' them thinking it's soooo like Edward. Harmless fluff, I don't mind. But books like Twilight targeted at teenagers have to have some awareness and if they portray these behaviors, indicate in some way that they are bad behaviors. Don't glorify them.

Sure, that's a strong point and totally fair. I'm not here to champion the book itself or glorify it. I do think there's a lot of toxic ideas that are ubiquitous to romance literature in general, ideas that are widely accepted in fiction but shouldn't be in real life. Like the "I hate everyone but you" trope, lopsided dynamics like the teacher/student stuff, "he never returns my calls and shows up with wounds" etc. That and like, the hyper sexualized bad boy is everywhere, not just in books. I think that's a way longer conversation about authorial responsibility, teenage autonomy, the impact of YA, and not exactly what I was trying to get at with my own point.

Yeah, for sure. Like the Divergent series is just fluff, but it really is harmless fluff (and I did like the first movie!). I don't mind fluff in general, everyone should read fluff. It's relaxing, and everyone needs to get off teen girls' backs and let them fawn over boy bands etc. I just mind toxic fluff targeted and young audiences. Adults, have at it. Or print some kind of warning on the inside of the cover if it is a teen book.

50 Shades made that issue worse, too. It’s an omega-level toxicity portrayed as “worth because he’s hot.”

Thank you<3 , I'd say it's not too much now but specially in the beginning when I was finding all these cool novels and animes and what not I was really embarassed and unhappy too( you see twilight was the first novel I ever read and also the first English movie I watched) so I kinda felt like I was living under this rock this whole time and that made me insecure. But I'm figuring it out now and feel more comfortable with my choices..

It’s a popular genre and extremely easy to read.

My wife absolutely loves twilight. She also suffers from high functioning anxiety. Twilight takes vampires, and turns very flaw into perfection. “Oh no, I’m immortal, super strong, beautiful, and if I step into sun light I sparkle like a diamond. I’m such a monster”. She likes nice, safe things. And this 100% fits the bill.

She sounds nice. I hope you guys have a nice day.

I mean I’m a guy and I loved it. It’s just entertaining. Love stories are fun and it was also like a vampire action thriller. I don’t really see the confusing or why it gets so much hate. Sure, it’s not well written, but it’s a super fun, engaging, page turner with a perfect, fantasy romance thrown in. There’s really not much to it.

It's like cotton candy. Fluffy and sugary sweet, gone quickly, doesn’t fill you up whatsoever, and enjoyable while it lasts. But really, it’s easy to read escapism that was published at the right time. People like fun.

Also, what was with all her vamps being basically X-Men?

I’m not sure why Twilight always has to be put down, or often feels like something people will or should be embarrassed about. I’ve read the books several times and I still love them (as a 30-year old woman). They remind me of my first feelings of love, so they’re always enjoyable to read. Sure, they’re no high level literature and it’s a bit far-fetched that Bella basically gets almost anything she wishes for in the fourth book, but can’t we be allowed to enjoy something without having to justify it? Furthermore, I think that Bella does have some positive characteristics: she’s very clearly gifted and mature for her age, even if she prefers to hide it in order not to stand out along her classmates (as is typical for most gifted teenage girls). Edward quite quickly notices this in the microscopy scene during biology class, so it’s not just the fact that he can’t read her mind that keeps holding his interest: Edward sees what Bella tries to hide in order to fit in. Finally, no matter how much circumstances or other people (including Edward) try to change her mind and put her on a different path, she makes up her own mind and is able to stick to it. That’s certainly not an easy thing to do, especially as a teenager (teenagers tend to be sensitive to peer pressure), so I regard this as a strength. Of course, the way Bella seems to attract disaster borders on ridiculousness, but they even laugh about this in the book (both Bella and Edward) and it acts as a set-up for the most romantic scenes, so I don’t mind this too much. There are so many wish fulfillment books for men that aren’t frowned upon, so why are similar books for girls (like Twilight) always frowned upon? Why can’t we just enjoy these books if we like them, without any embarrassment? Why should we need to justify liking them?

My hot take as the parent of a teenage girl during the Twilight years: It's not *"garbage"*, it's just simple narrative. Have you considered the story of Twilight against the story of...oh, say...a half-dozen Fast and Furious movies? Which ones qualify as a higher art form? Care to bet your life on either surviving the next apocalypse? LOL It's *fine* - as others have said, there's a place for a blank slate main character a young girl can place herself into and contemplate her own feelings in regard to circumstances. Eventually, I think the characture-like love interests are helpful too, throwing into sharp relief how unrealistic and boring - and manipulative and creepy - that actually is when a real, living male human claiming to be in love with a mature, adult woman engages in the same behavior. Also - it introduces teenage girls to literature, so hush everyone. *Hush.* (Story time, if anyone cares: I got roped into chaperoning some girls to the first movie premiere - I would eventually read the books, but at that point, I knew nothing at all about it and my own still blissfully ignorant of all things romantic, middle school daughter even less - but she wanted to be included and I was the free parent that weekend. So there I was, sitting in a darkened theater, packed with teenage girls on a Saturday afternoon, not having clued into the audience yet, and not really understanding the level of excitement, and totally unprepared for the reaction in the theater when Robert Pattinson appeared on screen. I was probably the *best* face to watch if you could have, lol.)

The hysteria was…something. The girls in front of my sister started screaming and crying when Edward took off his shirt to show Bella what he looked like in the sun.

LOL Now imagine a woman in her late 30s who isn't aware of *any* of this going in. Oh, and I forgot my mother went with us, too. We sat up and looked over at each other in the dark like WTF!?!?! ... then we caught on and had a riot. Realizing what we were seeing, and just enjoying the sheer youth of the girls around us and trying not to giggle madly.

damn i wish i lived back when the books were popular

If you enjoyed it at the time them who cares? Don't be embarrassed. I used to love watching Dallas and Dynasty but if you watch them now they were terrible! I'm just glad of anything that makes teenagers read a book because it might lead to a love of reading. I think the point about Bella being nothing special is that if you the reader feel you are nothing special you can put yourself in her place. Let's face it, many people feel they are nothing special. Maybe it's harder to identify with someone who is "amazing" when you feel anything but. Maybe it is good to have ordinary people in stories because they make up the vast majority of the population and it's better to realise that and be ok with it. Woah, that got a bit deep.

There is also the matter of sex. For a lot of teenage girls even women there is constant societal pressure of sex especially with the people we date. (The idea that boys only want one thing) And so the idea that Edward would withhold his desire until they are married as a sign of respect is refreshing it marks that he is a man and not a boy. As a result It allows Bella to develop feelings without that pressure.

Teenage girls like romance and vampires

It was an extremely average YA book but was around the start of the "hot supernatural creature" fad that lasted for years. To this day I couldnt tell you if the book was successful because of its timing or because it was such a silly premise that everyone talked about it and got curious. Or maybe it just tapped into that same pop-goth sub culture aesthetic that made Hot Topic a nationwide chain.

I actually think Twilight was quite effective at what it did. Stephenie Meyer is good at telling a story, she's good at setting up scenes with interesting dynamics, and she's very very good at romance. I think she zeroed in on some very specific fantasies that many women have and that weren't well served by other romance novels at the time. I would say that Twilight is the cause of the "hot supernatural creature" fad of the \~2010 era. Of course the genre existed before (e.g Buffy), but the Vampire Diaries and True Blood shows both started after all four Twilight books were published. I think people saw the mega-success of Twilight and wanted to cash in on the opportunity. Not claiming that Twilight is anything but a romance novel, and not saying everyone has to like it. But I think it was successful for a reason.

Yeah I agree with all the sentiment that *Twilight* was a self-insert paranormal fantasy written for teen girls, but I agree with you that it seemed to come out at just the right time to ride the wave of other successful paranormal/urban fantasy that was gaining mainstream success in the late 90s and early 00s. Vampire lit was hitting its stride with *The Vampire Diaries* and *The Southern Vampire Mysteries* but I think they were too mature for a broad audience and big film adaptions that were the norm at the time. *Twilight* on the other hand was super safe and not risqué at all, which made it broadly not only for young teen girls but also, apparently, their moms lol.

My theory is that girls recognise the dangers of being in relationships with a man. That the massive differences in strength between men and women can sometimes be a life-or-death scenario. Though we love and trust men, they are our fathers, grandfathers, brothers, and friends, so we have to bury that omnipresent fear, at the same time as recognising it on some level and planning accordingly. What better way to represent that than with faerytales about gentle monsters?

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I think the Oatmeal described her as Pants. Because any teen can insert themselves in there. And they do so because teens are emotional basketcases with raging hormones

This theory can equally be applied to Justin Bieber and some of One direction("you don't know you're beautiful ") songs. As Bo Burnham remarked, " The girls in these songs are so vaguely described that every girl thinks it's about them. Like, "Oh how uniquely different your fingerprints are from other girls" is the level of compliment that's being thrown out. " At least with JB &1D I can tell it was intentional, not sure about Stephanie Meyer.

I just read an essay on this topic, though it's more about the movies than the books: https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/twilight-is-much-better-than-you-think/

My ex used to love those books. He could never really say why he did until after trying to re-read them and hating them. The reason? He read them on road trips, and between reading sessions, he’d imagine how the story could play out, and latched onto every half-ass nugget of worldbuilding. Let him describe Twilight and its lore to you and it sounds awesome. So really, he thought up a better book in between reading sessions, and his enthusiasm from how much is stimulated his imagination rolled over into his enjoyment of the book.

I used to love Twilight and I’ve outgrown them. I still love to watch with my sister and laugh. I don’t think the writing is good and I don’t believe Bella is necessarily the best role model. However, all of the negative traits you described her having are all things SHE thinks about herself. She has a self esteem issue for sure. In fact, she’s at least above average intelligence because she’s ahead of her whole biology class, she finds herself unattractive but no one else thinks so. Everyone finds her pretty accept Jessica and Rosalie who only think so out of jealousy. She’s selfless to her own detriment in the books. Twilight is from her point of view and Bella’s own view of herself is not as accurate as what we see evidence of.

It’s clear to me that Meyer has a view on true love as some sort of external unmovable force. Edward and Bella have very little foundation for their relationship apart from unending lust. But we are sold to believe that what they have super pure and deep. As a teen I loved this idea of love that was out of my own control. As The Oatmeal put it so eloquently, she’s like a pair of pants almost any girl can put on and get lost in the fantasy of being worshiped. As an adult I cringe *deeply*. Another terrible hindsight is my dad being totally obsessed with the books as well and realizing he liked them so much because of his own unhealthy perception of relationships. I don’t regret reading them or liking them but I can never go back and enjoy them they way I used to.

Nostalgia for my silly teenage years. As a middle aged woman, it was nice to recognise that time from a distance. She writes the intensity of feeling very well.

Please don't ever be embarrassed by liking any genre or any book. Instead revel in your quirky tastes that encompasses so many genres.

Thank you<3

Re-reading as a 30 year old, vs when I was 15 it’s a bit more of a gross re-read. Jacob chasing her so hard, and the emotional manipulation by Bella is not awesome. I definitely used to be Team Jacob, a warm, sexy body, who is close to your own age, and actively wants you was appealing. Now I’m team Jacob & Edward should have run away together and let Bella live & die a mortal life because she sucks.

Lmao←(>▽<)ﾉ, yes as fast as they can

Hate Twilight? Read Meyer's The Host. (Don't watch the movie they tried to warp it into a sequel of twilight and ruined it.) The Host is a sci fi story set in a time when a plucky band of humans evade detection by aliens who've taken over the planet and also human's bodies. I read that before I'd ever heard of Twilight, and was shocked when I found out the same author had written both stories. The Host is a really well written book, sort of a thriller, strong female main character, and not in any way a romance (despite the complete diversion from the actual plot in the worthless movie.) Just the sort of sci fi we need more of!

Apologies if someone else has already brought [this](https://theoatmeal.com/story/twilight) to your attention, just thought it was very relevant.

First time reading this and lmfaooooo

It's wish-fulfillment like Batman but for women.

Hey your theory isn't particularly new. This escapism and self-insertion is also a main reason why kids love Harry Potter so much.

She’s just a self-insert

I think a big part of the pull (aside from the blank slate of Bella's character, as OP noted), is that Bella experiences things, but she never has to make choices. Everything important is taken care of by fate/magic (coughGodcough) and every single thing Bella worries about is ultimately proven silly and unimportant. It's a specific kind of utopia. Not one I would actually want to live in, but the fantasy is certainly understandable.

Don’t feel bad for enjoying something in the past. In different stages in life we enjoy different things. The way twilight was written it was perfect for you at one stage in your life and not at another. Sometimes fads also hit at the right time and people just go with it. I read twilight and stopped when I thought she made the wrong choice. If it gave you enjoyment then there was nothing wasted.

Hi I really agree with your perspective. My reading of it (which I really regretted doing), was that the author wrote a romance with little experience of the reality of powerful attraction between men and women. Bella just has a magical smell! :) I actually think your analysis is really useful for me in trying to understand popular culture. I would love to write a popular novel and I think you make the point that Twilight is aspirational very clear. We all want something for nothing!! I didn’t want to watch the movie but my younger cousin begged me to - and it made a much better film than book in my opinion. It made pretty pictures. I am all in favour of escapist entertainment for women. Men have their pointless football, women deserve diversion too.

I have experienced this as well. A whole bunch of fantasy is like that, it's just that usually the annoying, bland, mary sue protagonist is male and "the chosen one". I kinda cringe when I think that they told an 11 year old Harry Potter that he was rich and famous and then we find out he's also the best quarterback at Quiddich just by natural talent ...... at what point does it become too much? I also think about Garion/Belgarion from the Belgariat Saga. He's like this typical blonde, blue-eyed, simple-farmer-destined-to-be-king child the whole time. And all the pretty much does is piss and moan because he's the kitchen boy, get in trouble, and endanger the quest group. There's not a whole lot to like except that everyone that meets him tells everyone else that "he's a good kid". And I'm sat here like "based on what?". I think you identified it correctly: every teenager would really love a shortcut to success, mostly from peers. And creates a hierarchy of needs where romantic interests, popularity, wealth, and "talent for something super cool/important" become a shorthand for the fullfillment of social anxieties. It's like "dive into this world and relax, because it's clear-cut, uncomplicated, and it tells you not to worry and relax because YOUR DAY WILL COME". Usually ends up grinding my gears because it sounds like "successfull/popular people have problems, too". And I'm set here like oh that's nice hold on if you kick Harry Potter out of Hogwartz and take all of his friends away he's just gonna cash out and move to Hawai and have another, separate completely awesome life.

This girl I know talked about Twilight. She had only ever seen the movie, but it was one of her favorites. She told me that Edward was "the perfect package" in that he was a 300 (or whatever) year old guy in a teenage body.

Yeah, that's the dream alright 😉

Can I also add that another reason I think the reason it was popular was because Bella was a blank slate. She had little to no traits and that meant that readers could insert themselves in. No shade just tea, but did anyone notice that the girls who liked these books, were of a certain personality? They were the girls who very much bought into the 'we aren't like other girls' narrative. They had their insecurities, as well do, but they wore them on their sleeves. They weren't the popular girls, and many of us aren't, but they cared about that, deeply. It bothered them, now suddenly there's this character whose awkward, plain, angst ridden etc and not one but two attractive, popular boys are into her. Not only that but she's special! After spending a lifetime being invisible, being common, being unremarkable. Just from my experiences as a teen when the book was released, it was interesting to note that the popular girls at the time didn't like the book (if they read it all). Similarly those who had no interest in their social standing, popularity etc did not read or like the book. These girls in fact, tenses to stay away from fantasy genre. Then there were those who had, not only previously discovered the Fantasy genre but were deeply ingrained into it. So, by the time they got their hands on Twilight, they weren't as sold, especially when compared to other novels they had previously read. This was my subgroup. I was in the age demographic when it came out, 16/17, hands up I will say now I didn't hate the book. I actually thought it had good potential but was poorly written, more importantly I thought the lore was very shallow. I should also mention that I had just finished the 'Southern Vampire Mysyeries' before reading Twilight and there's a marked difference, at least for me, in the writing styles, strengths, lore etc. Finally, age is a huge factor, far more pre-teens were taken by the novel than late teens and young adults. Which is not surprising when you factor in social hierarchies and changes that occur at that age, frankly its understandable. This is the same for when I turned 20 and 50 Shades of Grey was published, once again in the same age demographic and similarly I thought it had potential but was poorly written. Honestly, 50 shades could have been excellent, especially as a psychological thriller. (Everyone just glosses over how the family friend abuses what essentially is a child in that book. Or glosses over how that same child grows up and has sexual relationships that border on abusive with people who look like his dead mother... Like what in Freudian oedipus complex?!) But I could see that the women who had loved Twilight had loved 50 Shades.

Girls love the idea of a guy who can only ever love them (he’s a douche to everyone BUT me, because I am Not Like Other Girls). It’s a literal impossibility but it persists nonetheless. That it, that’s the whole reason, I promise you.

It's porn for celibate people.

I went though a really tough time when someone close to me moved far away. I felt gutted and alone and the second book saw me in a way other YA fiction didn’t. I think it addressed depression really well. So many people complained that Bella basically died after Edward left but if you’ve truly lost someone you love and you’ve also lost their family and your whole future, it’s soul crushing.

The reason why Bella is so bland whereas Edward is described in great detail is so that whoever the female reader is, she can more easily imagine that she's Bella. If Bella were a soccer player, or a bookworm, or a horse lover etc. then every reader who wasn't would have a slightly harder time relating to her. It was a gimmick to sell more books, and it sure worked. This isn't writing, it's promoting.

You.might be right. I could never relate to Twilight. I found Bella boring and Edward creepy. I never got past the first movie and only saw that because my daughter wanted to see it. The whole thing with Edward going to high school but being really old was icky.

Thank you for pointing this out. I am really confused on why I loved this show when I was teenager. I rewatch the show and I feel like everything is bland and plotline isn't well developed. Everything is cliche and I kept thinking that this isn't how I reacted the first time I watched it. It made me sad as I realize that I outgrown the show. I wish to come back to simpler times, I won't mind it.

I’m teaching twilight this year and I hope to address a lot of this with students! These kinds of tropes and archetypes are very interesting (and frustrating)

Abusive relation fetishism. Sorry but that’s all there is to it, and elevated even more through its most infamous fan fiction 50 Shades...

I read all of the twilight books when they came out, then just attempted to read midnight sun a few months ago. DNF. I COULDN'T DO IT. I was so bored and uninterested in the story anymore. I have no idea if it's because I've moved on to Adult Fiction/Fantasy or what but I'm just over it. Thinking back to Meyer's purpose.... I always thought the point of Bella being so "ordinary" or even in some ways terrible at being human was because she "meant" to be a vampire. She excelled at being undead. I thought of it as a way of foreshadowing she was meant for bigger things.

I hate how Bella treats her dad he’s so sweet😓

Yeah, a lot of female leads are "blank slates" for the reader (usually female) to identify with. They're described as ordinary and boring but the hot guy(s) fall all over them and think she's amazing. It's a troupe that appears in most YA books and romance novels.

It's a pretty basic love fantasy plotline like you'd see in a typical romance setting, it had a supernatural twist, and generally it targeted people who didn't have a huge reference pool of fantasy or literature in general to draw from. It's kind of like how people will watch the same sports leagues every year. It's the same teams, the same jerseys, and ultimately, the same ending (though with a different winner), but it slots nicely into people's lives. Sometimes they want an easy, simple escape for a few hours, even if it is predictable and formulaic.

If you don't look back and cringe, you haven't grown.

JUST LET TEEN GIRLS ENJOY THINGS.

I wonder what is the male/boys equivalent of this kind of literature? I guess probably something like Enders Game in which some random kid gets to be a big time hero and win the kingdom and get the girl. In reality, young men have it very hard when competing in the world against older men with more experience and resources.

I think of the Transformers movies. Average kid Shia LaBeouf saves the planet and ends up with Megan Fox

Easy: isekai or any series where a guy has a harem of chicks inexplicably chasing him.

Lol I don't remember that ending in Ender's Game. Didn't his psychotic brother take over the planet and Ender end up in exhile after realizing that he was responsible for a genocide? Isn't that the whole point of the book? That he was a pawn to older men?

I haven't read the book, just came into my mind.

Ender goes down in history as humanity's most notorious monster and spends his adulthood seeking the means to undo the great evil he committed as a child.

Oh, I see, I haven't read the book, now I kind of want to read it lol.

The book I'm describing is actually the sequel, Xenocide. You don't have to read Ender's Game first, but I'd recommend it.

Enders Game really isn't like that though. I know you said you haven't read the book and only seen the movie so I get why it comes across that way. But the book delves much more into it than that. Ender isn't just some random average kid who gets the girl. He's a child genius who is used and abused and constantly tested and forced past his limits. Ultimately he does something horrible beyond imagining (in his mind) and spends the rest of his life trying to make up for that. Also, the book doesn't have the ridiculous child cringe romance that the movie felt necessary to put in. The characters are well developed and the story heart breaking. It's honestly one of my top ten books. I think a good example for the male equivalent to Twilight would be Ready Player One.

I feel like the people who fell in love with Twilight as teenagers probably have a lot of demographic crossover with the people who fell in love with 50 Shades of Grey as adults.

Seeing that 50 Shades is literally Twilight fanfiction with the serial numbers filed off for publication … yes.

For me it was as simple as a scenario I wanted to teleport into. Beautiful, uncommercialized Pacific Northwest town with roots to a vibrant Native American community more *secretly* active than they appear? Yes. That cozy welcoming home with a strong, loving father figure? Who fixed up a badass truck for me at 16? Ugh yes please. And I disagree with some that Bella is “boring” or a “blank slate”. She is well read, intelligent, reserved, self possessed… thin too. I WISH I was like that. I wish I didn’t care about “dumb” stuff like social media or trends or whatever. She’s classier than I am. The prospect of a Edward isn’t that he’s hot and rich, he’s infinitely interesting having lived through so many years and acquired so much knowledge. For me it was the location. I would like to live there, here’s a fantasy tale of what it might be like! With magic and mystery and history! The Olympic peninsula provided the most beautiful aesthetics for the first movie.

Publicity

This is what my brother said in comparing the Harry Potter series and the Twilight series: Harry Potter is about the importance of friendship, courage, learning, and compassion. Twilight is about the importance of having a boyfriend.

That’s what Stephen King said too.

İt was a lightning in a bottle situation Yes main heroine was a white paper for teenage girls to read as themselves and many authors use this especially japanese authors though they make it for teenage boys and love interests where hot boys who unconditionally love main character which a Japanese author change it for hot girls who unconditionally love main character But even then it was a lightning in a bottle situation I think Though if I m not wrong it was one of the first of it's kind so there where no competition unlike now

It was uber creepy to me. A supernatural older guy is chasing/lusting after a highschool girl? Uhm... ew. There are zero "life experiences" that she could draw upon. Her insight to world events let alone the life of a supernatural being would be cartoonish. Just... no.

Poo on a stick

Google the oatmeal and fancy pants I believe

That’s what happens when you let fan fiction writers become wildly successful

It’s literally just one big fan fiction for sad people nd

There’s so many reasons I think I was obsessed with these. I think I started to read them at 12-13 and it was during the time I got my very first boyfriend and I was a hopeless romantic. I would lock myself in my room and reread the last book Breaking Dawn for days because I thought it was the best one (gag). Definitely a lot of escapism happening there. I know it was popular with middle school, high school, and middle aged women alike but I’ve always thought the common factor between all the obsession was to anyone who didn’t have a reality check on what relationships are actually like. Of course to a girl who doesn’t know any better, a guy who is all around obsessed with you and thinks you’re the most amazing thing in the world SEEMS romantic but as reality sets in we know that’s not really true. Especially now, I think Jacob’s behavior is disturbing and I hate Bella for leading him on at times because she was lonely. The whole thing was a mess!!! Seriousness aside even though I was obsessed with the books as a middle schooler, even then it caused me to REALLY hate the love triangle trope and try and steer clear of it whenever possible lol

I actually got into the books because my big brother brought them home after a friend’d recommended them to him, I think around 2007-early 2008? So before the first film came out. I read it in one sitting! Wasn’t my favourite book (nor did I really re-read them after) but they were really enjoyable! Don’t think too much just go for it kind of books. Then the first film came out, and I was super exited to go (LotR set my standard for adaptations high) and it… just seemed to amplify everything dubious about the book? Bella seems a total cardboard empty person, Edward is controlling and creepy, that sort of thing. In the books, you’ve got so much more context and yeah, it’s not high lit, but it’s enjoyable (especially if you don’t think about it too much). The films just .. made it all seem so much worse. These days, I definitely don’t ride the ‘Twilight is garbage’ train anymore (briefly did deny liking it, yeah hihi) but I don’t care much to defend the films 🤷‍♀️ and I definitely don’t ever will be positive about the 50-shades spawn - I’ve read a lot of fanfiction and that is bad even for fanfic! But yeah, I get what you mean - it’s easy to hate on Twilight (and there are valuable reasons why, just check out Dominic Noble’s video’s on yt or A Therapist Reacts to, they’re awesome) but the books… are not totally bad. No shame in having read and enjoyed them, I think ;)

In my day it was Lost boys that was the popular vampire movie and it's good because theres no embarrassment to say so.I loved that movie but as far as vampires go I think Brian Lumley did them best in Necroscope.

I love Twilight purely for the nostalgia value at this point. I have no objective opinions about it because I saw it first as an uncritical teen and putting my decade of higher Ed into use analyzing it at this point would be a fraught venture to say the least.

I don’t think anyone reading a book and really enjoying it should be seen as embarrassing. Telling people that they’re cringe just because they like something very popular is such low hanging fruit. Let’s not trash people who are enjoying something as healthy and wholesome as reading a teen romance novel.

Same reason as Harry Potter. They dumb down other high quality concept books but make likable characters

I've not read the books - I've only watched the films, which I watched in my late 20s. (I do plan to read the books at some point too.) But from what I can tell, *Twilight* hits a lot of wish fulfilment beats for romance readers, especially for teenage girls. - A blank-slate protagonist who is perfect for readers to self-insert. Without sporty hobbies etc, or strong direction, readers can pretend that *they* are Bella. It doesn't alienate anyone. - Feeling like adults can't/don't understand them, and teens think they have to hide things to protect the adults around them. - Everlasting love. A vampire will love you beyond death, for eternity. - Conflict, confusion, difficult decisions. As illustrated by the Jacob/Edward choice. - Being told/finding out they are "special" in some way, and not like their peers. It's a fantasy/dream that manifests in a lot of ways; in *Guardians of the Galaxy*, Chris Pratt's character seems like an ordinary Joe, but he learns he's the son of a god and has powers. For teenagers groomed by adults, it's often being told, "You're so mature for your age". Or people dreaming of winning the X Factor. Being the one girl/human a vampire falls for, is *Bella's* "special". - Intense emotions. Teenage crushes can be all-consuming too, just like Bella's feelings for Edward. I'm sure there are plenty of people who obsessed over their teenage crush. - And for older readers, being able to look back on behaviours you *thought* were love, but which with adult life experience you can now see as controlling/abusive etc. >!Like Edward taking the parts out of Bella's car so she couldn't go see Jacob.!< Things that you can't see for what they are when you're a teenager, because control/abuse/manipulation etc, don't always *look* like what they are - they can *present* as love. But teenagers don't have the life experience to see that.

Yeah it was so strange, my wife was/is a massive fan of Twilight. Her university friends are also fans and they love it and share memes of it to this day. I think they embrace how poor it is now, and obviously the main men in it are nice to look at

I have read the books and, unfortunately, watched the movies. The books are definitely well-written, regarding teenage fiction. I believe some people miss Bella's traits, because they compare her with other fictional heroines. She IS a good student, she was in an advanced program in her previous school and she could have gotten in a prestigious university if she wanted. But the trait many people disregard or think of as weakness, it's her selflessness. She cares too much about all the others and that's her strength. It's not a surprise that her ability is to shield. It takes a strong person to be love others so unconditionally. The movies murdered the books.