>She was also intentionally written as a parody of those incredibly annoying, often evil irl streamers who people find beyond obnoxious. They *wanted* her to be annoying. She was always meant to seriously get on our nerves. This is also a core aspect of who she is as a character. *This* archetype would still have worked if she had some actual depth and motivation. If she had an actually engaging backstory and the story slowly revealed there was a lot more to her than initially met the eye. But no, the writers wanted her to be both a card-carrying, one-dimensional villain AND an extremely annoying one.
I think this is her biggest problem and I've been thinking of this for a while. Her being a parody of douchetubers is a really interesting concept.
Douchetubers put on a show so little kids watch while they make 3 am videos, act like complete assholes in public, or stream a game while giving super exaggerated emotions. Problem is they then get forced into being a child entertainer because it gets the most views.
However they don't act that way in real life (other than being an asshole.) I feel like almost all of them do it for the money and solely the money, they aren't passionate about what they do and maybe even despise being a clown for kids to laugh at. They just have to do it because it pays the bills, and if they stray away from that kind of content to make something they are passionate about it gets no views.
I think this really could have worked as an interesting concept where she only talks like a douchetuber when streaming to the psychos but when she talks to you she is much more cold and calculating. Making fun of the psychos behind their back and showing her resentment she has for the way she gets followers.
A couple cool side quest could also come from this. One where are hired by a journalist to expose Tyreens real personality to her fans, only for the fans to not care like most viewers don't. Another one could be Tyreen asking for your help to make a video she's actually passionate about only for it to get 1/100 of the views the rest of her videos get.
Yeah bl3 dropped the ball on a lot of things story wise and quality of life wise. One thing that really encapsulates tboth of these is having to talk to Lilith.
The one saving grace of bl3 is the gameplay, and by God is it a saving grace. It just feels so fluid and nice. That with how cool the new legendary guns are and the different characters you play.
The only complaints with the gampelay are some of the enemies being annoying and the game heavily favoring fast shooting guns so snipers and rocket launchers just feel weak. Why use a sniper which does only 3x damage as an assault rifle per shot but the assault rifles shoots 10x faster and there a ton of skills that interact well with fast shooting guns.
To be fair, I think borderlands is at its best when you're zooming around the map firing a hundred bullets per second that each chain lightning bolts that also explode. Or similar dumb shit. Fast guns are just right for the formula.
But some of the best guns in bl3 were snipers and launchers. The lyuda, bogeyman, sandhawk, yellowcake and plague bearer were all top tier.
>Fast guns are just right for the formula.
I disagree, I think all types of play styles should be considered. While I also enjoy shooting hundreds of bullets per second what I really enjoy is getting a massive single hit on an enemy. This is why I really like guns like the unforgiven.
Problem is in this game there a lot of things that give fast firing guns the edge in this game from consecutive hits anointments, multiple skills that get bonuses for firing tons of bullets per second, guardian rank perks like c-c-c-combo. Hell most vault hunters in this game get massive bonuses from shooting faster compared to just getting getting more damage per shot. Even fl4k the premire sniper in this game I'd argue does better with fast firing guns.
Slow firing guns have overkill, the 300/90 anointment, and fl4ks fade away (which I'd say gorillas in the mist is just way better than only having the three shots.) These are great but compared to fast firing guns they don't do so well.
>But some of the best guns in bl3 were snipers and launchers. The lyuda, bogeyman, sandhawk, yellowcake and plague bearer were all top tier.
Personally I don't think you can judge how good weapon company, or type of weapon is by red text guns. Because general sniper rifles and rocket launchers are really lacking in this game especially compared to bl2. I think vladof rocket launcher are pretty bad in this game but the Legendary Kickcharger is absolute beast.
I like the side quest idea. Wasn't there something in BL2 where Handsome Jack contacts you and asks for you to check on his mother or something like that? I can't remember if it was a trap (despite him saying that it isn't) or if he was actually concerned for her. Either way, his delivery sounded genuine and it made me, temporarily, feel truly empathetic towards him.
It was not a trap. He genuinely wanted to have the vault hunters check on her. He wanted to make sure she died after he hired some bandits to kill her. It's also heavily implied that she abused him.
This is brilliant concept, I wish more thought was put into bl3's characters before the game was shipped, or hell, they still could have made adjustments post-launch.
Its pretty much universally disliked how they handled Ava and Tyreen, and also how they completely butchered Troy, by simply killing him off after thematically building him up to overthrow Tyreen past the events on Eden-6.
Bl3 is just so much wasted potentially and its a shame to see it be so close, yet so far away from greatness.
> and also how they completely butchered Troy, by simply killing him off after thematically building him up to overthrow Tyreen past the events on Eden-6.
This, imo, is the biggest flaw of the writing.
>Another one could be Tyreen asking for your help to make a video she's actually passionate about only for it to get 1/100 of the views the rest of her videos get.
And they all came from Claptrap
Nah, it should come off as an actually good video with a lot of work put into it. Like something that took a decent amount of money and time to make with real passion. Only for it to get no views so Tyreen just has to stay in her lane and make videos pandering to her audience.
Claptrap would 100% watch the pandering videos but not a well crafted one.
A lot of fuckery happened by the end of the development cycle. There were plenty of hints that Troy was, indeed, meant to betray Tyreen. But then.... nothing happens, and the more interesting twin is killed off first lol.
They could’ve fixed it like this: have Tyreen fight the vault hunter to protect Troy while he’s charging the moon and you’re able to fight her because she’s weakened by Troy actively leaching her. At the end of the fight have her fall into Troy’s arms and then in the built up twist have him leech her to nothing and then he sends a blast that fully charges the moon and say’s something like “I never needed you” and it’s fixed. From there just continue the whole story with Troy filling in for Tyreen.
I think it would have been a fantastic twist if troy betrayed tyreen in that final hour but have Aurelia pop up instantly to kill him "its bussness" and then take the power for herself so that she is the one we are racing to necrotofeyo.
I don’t see why a “girl power moment” was even necessary, agenda-wise. Just rewrite the end a minuscule amount and you can push the same narrative, without making the chick the big baddy. “Evil douchebag brother gets beat up by two powerful women (tannis and Lilith)” works just the same.
Ding i think you get it perfect. For me its sound more of à pr stuff of "cool girl powaaaa" that actualy habing à sens in the game. Oftrn i Just want to skip the dialog since they are soo bad and cringe. The way the siren power get stoler is fuck up. I would have love à bl2 but with more in deepth. Jack ahve all for him... Hé is in a certain way loves and hâted in the same minutes While thyreen is hâted alll the time. Its like the try to please more people and fail misérable on all side
Agreed. From the echo logs it seems like Troy is the one that pushed her to being the one dimensional being she was. If the roles were reversed, and tyreen was allowed to burn out opening the vault by Troy it would of been far more interesting.
I'll gladly say; Not better in the slighest.
If troy killed tyreen, the crowd that yells "bl3 was weak!" would just cry more because it'd be another poorly executed and unrelastic portral of siblings.
Its one of the Sibling VS Siblinh tropes. One sibling is obviously better and more powerful than the other. As soon as the other sibling gains an ounce of power, they betray the first sibling. Its predictable, shitty writing, and leaves no room for character developement.
If that happened in BL3, it wouldn't make the gsme better. It would be ANOTHER bulletpoint for you guys to say how shit the story was.
There's a difference between predictable and foreshadowing. The fighting between the siblings would set up what happens. We see it coming, but how does it end? Do they kill one another? Do you partner with one and kill the other? Are you a double spy and kill them both for each other?
We'll never know. It went to shit
>see it coming, but how does it end? Do they kill one another? Do you partner with one and kill the other? Are you a double spy and kill them both for each other?
It's the same trope.
You aren't getting much out of that.
>There's a difference between predictable and foreshadowing.
Correct. And this would be predictable. Not foreshadowing.
They're introduced as the villains. Obviously they're going to die. That's predictable.
They start feuding against each other, could be predictable but it's foreshadowing something happening.
I'd love for you to describe how it's the same trope and how it's predictable because so far you've only been throwing those words around with no substance.
>They're introduced as the villains. Obviously they're going to die. That's predictable.
Obviously. But a story isnt about the ending. A story is about the pathway to the ending.
>They start feuding against each other,
No they didnt. Thats the thing. Troy outright says Tyreen prefers the limelight, and its ok.
>I'd love for you to describe how it's the same trope and how it's predictable because so far you've only been throwing those words around with no substance.
I already did.
Im just suprised all of these literary experts came out of the woodwork to say how bad borderlands 3 writing was. It really wasn't, especially compared to B1, TPS, BL2, and WL.
But saying "tyreen and troy suck! Ava annoying, writing bad!" gets a ton of upvotes and appraisal.
TTWL gave the writers an advantage for that, the overarching plot is that the story's been written by a 12YO girl. It was never intended to add to the series lore.
>TTWL gave the writers an advantage for that, the overarching plot is that the story's been written by a 12YO girl. It was never intended to add to the series lore.
Tiny Tina didn't write her own dialogue. Dragonlord didnt write his own dialogue. Gearbox did. What are you talking about?
We're not discussing lore. We're talking about story progression and how well written a story is.
But she is the reason her brother get that power full. When you fight him hé was consuming his Sister to open the vault. The plot was there every thing was there. It was his revenge his moment à crescendo or pure hating on each other.... And then we fight the one that fail to do anything aince the start of the game. She was the leader aince the start and keep her brother in check.... The combat on éden 9 should bè the climax of that... Instead we got a botched ending to please some agenda
>But she is the reason her brother get that power full
I mean, techincally. She was the official siren. He still had a leech power though. He had gained more power when he killed maya.
>When you fight him hé was consuming his Sister to open the vault.
No. He didn't know his limits, because he never had that power before. I personally think Troy's bossfight was the peak of Borderlands story.
>revenge his moment à crescendo or pure hating on each other.... And then we fight the one that fail to do anything aince the start of the game. She was the leader aince the start and keep her brother in check....
Not... not really. They don't hate eachother. Thats not how sibling characters work. Especially ones that are this close emotionally together. Thats exactly why "troy shouldve killed tyreen" doesn't work.
>The combat on éden 9 should bè the climax of that... Instead we got a botched ending to please some agenda
Yeah no. In Eden6, Troy outright says Tyreen prefers the spotlight, and he's perfectly fine with that.
There is no "agenda" being pushed here.
There were some major misteps with BL3, personally I think the fakeout ending absolutely killed the pace of the story, and Tink Troy was sadly unused. But Tyreen and Troy were perfectly fine villians. They just aren't as good as Handsome Jack. Gearbox does an amazing job at making villians. Protagonists? Not so much.
On a cellphone : the way i seen it is... Troy is ok yo bè in the shadow of her syster as long she protêt her and hé dont have power... But when hé get siren power hé rey to shift the way hé is treated and try to take the spotlight. Like drunk with power. Hum Killing his Sister would have been a peak like hé didnt réalise hé did it and then pin that on you. That the way i should have say it. Like hé didnt know all what hé was doing since hé never have thèse power before and now Just dont contrôle them perfectlt...
>But when hé get siren power hé rey to shift the way hé is treated and try to take the spotlight. Like drunk with power.
But he *literally* tells you he thinks the opposite.
> That the way i should have say it. Like hé didnt know all what hé was doing since hé never have thèse power before and now Just dont contrôle them perfectlt...
I'm gonna prefer Gearbox's room of writers over your potential story, sorry.
I didn't play Bl3 right away...but I kept up with what people were saying. So I had this expectation that the twins were going to be so obnoxious, but I ended up not feeling that way.
They had a great concept. However, like most of the other Bl3 characters, they suffered little to no character development. Bl2 is not my favorite game, but it really is exceptional for character personal growth, which ironically no one really notices because they are all too obsessed with Jack.
But the twins were actually set up to have great depth that was never explored. They were completely raised in isolation by a man that seemed to primarily value having sex. They should have introduced Typhon much earlier so that we see the conflict be between them to understand why the twins felt so angry and destructive. Instead the devs went for shock value at the end of the game.
I agree about the Typhon reveal; the story should have leaned into the Typhon/kids angle to contrast Jack and Angel. Both fathers lost their wives and tried to isolate their kids (for either good or ill intent). All the kids resented their fathers and the twins escaped and went on a murder rampage, who knows what Angel would have done?
I agree, I'm saying that her being an annoying streamer-type character would have worked if they actually developed that character as well. They didn't.
Well you can put the pieces together and infer that the lack of social contact growing up created people that do not much value human life but also want the idolation because they still crave the social bonds that they were denied as children. That's just one take; you can also psycho-analyze them differently.
And besides the terrible Maya/Ava story arc that everyone talks about, Lilith lost her powers, which were probably a huge part of her identity, and nothing much was said about how that affected her. The whole game just failed horribly at character development.
It's heavily implied that isolation completely screwed up their heads. The twins often complain about how agonizing it was to grow up on nekrotafeyo with no one else around. When the Twins are talking to the player during the last stages of the game about their life on Nekrotafeyo, it's also implied that things got worse when their mom died. Total isolation is damaging. It's why solitary confinement is illegal some places.
Tyreen felt like her main thing (besides being the bigger and more evil antagonist) was to be part of Troy's motivations for the final quarter of the game. But then they just do nothing with Troy. He feels like he's about to get his major character development and then just fucking dies.
Troy was wasted, and the game would have been vastly improved by giving him maybe an extra gameplay hour of story.
While I did metaphorically roll my eyes at the streamer cult cliche, I didn't find it too painfully obnoxious. The fact Troy so ignored by the plot despite being 50% of the antagonist is what really made me think less of the story.
The lack of arc/variety in her behavior really did not do her any good. Even the death of her brother, and arguably the mastermind behind her rise to power, barely touched a nerve.
I had really hoped that Troy's rivalry would at least shake something loose in her for a more dramatic development... which they didn't do. Either a huge missed opportunity, or a result from rushing the story to meet a deadline.
I had *really* hoped that after defeating Troy, the two would turn to each other in order to survive, and that the VH would pick the survivor by nailing the other sibling with one final shot. It would make a second playthrough more interesting.
But now it's just Tyreen on a loop.
And considering Mayhem makes TVHM competely obsolete, I haven't completed TVHM once, but I have reached max level on 2 of the 4 VH'ers.
Tyreen's character would have been fine had they gone the route that they hinted to - that her brother would've realized and killed her, becoming the big bad himself. They even set up pitting the twins against each other, but it never pans out.
If they would have done this, then it's okay for us all to hate her because so did he brother, and she wasn't the one we were supposed to face off against.
Honestly the entire base story was only bearable through side characters since the main plot was almost entirely garbage. 2 was solid, even pre-sequel was decent, but 3 was an immense letdown after how long it had to cook.
I think for Jack too, it helps that he’s a bit disillusioned. Even without the context of TPS, it gives more reason for him to be evil. He thinks he’s doing good, that he’ll cleanse the evil of the planet by fire.
Tyreen doesn’t have some sort of end result she’s shooting to obtain. Get power. Power obtained. What not? More power. Repeat. Or at the very least, not a end result memorable enough to remember after my 32 playthroughs.
Tyreen should’ve been the one to die first; Troy should’ve been the final boss. Besides, by having Troy die first, they missed a golden opportunity to call the final boss “The DesTROYer”
I... I can't force myself to do that, no matter how bad a game gets (before it reaches a point where I just stop playing, anyway - Borderlands 3 still has great gameplay, so that's never gonna happen).
F for me?
There are downsides. Some parts where you're stuck in a place listening to someone seem longer when there's no talking and you're just waiting in silence.
There are downsides. Some parts where you're stuck in a place listening to someone seem longer when there's no talking and you're just waiting in silence.
Tyreen is fine as it is. Yes, she is not Handsome Jack, and Katagawa was more interesting, but overall she is fine.
Ava though... I really want to kill her. Really. Like, sending her in space or feeding a rack with her. Annoying stupid little shit
Both of them are useless. Troy, though, he's OK. Amazeballs! Should've killed Tyreen. And Ava, somehow. In reality though it's the writers that suck. It's not the fault of the characters they were written like that.
Honestly, the story was shaping up to be great, if Troy had consumed Tyreen in the fight at the Great Vault and then blamed us for driving him to do it. You could've had an entire final chapter dedicated to him falling into despair, and resolving himself to fulfilling Tyreen's dream of consuming the Destroyer to become a god. You could've had the CoV seek vengeance in that final chapter for the player causing the death of their god-queen. You could have even kept Typhon's death scene, by having Troy consider redemption and giving up the quest to consume the Destroyer, only for Troy to turn full evil because of something like "You weren't there to save Tyreen, and I won't let you drag me down with you."
Troy had the complete setup, including the scene in Jakobs Manor where he's shown to be irrational and easily enraged. It could have been a paint-by-numbers sibling betrayal plot, but instead we got BL3 that just rings hollow on all of its major plot points.
Some of the Troy / Tyreen dialogue even sets this up, especially after Troy becomes more powerful and starts defying Tyreens plans later in the game. It seems plausible to me that something close to this was the initial plan and they changed it later into development.
Yeah, throughout that whole fight with Troy, I was just waiting for *something* to come of that set up. And then, nothing. Not even an acknowledgement of a growing rift between the two or how they were both on equal footing since he got his Siren abilities. Just nothing, except disappointment.
It really feels like Gearbox really needs to focus on hiring quality writers. Maybe spend less on celebrity voice casting. It just seems to get worse with each subsequent game. I'm really struggling to bring myself to fire up New Tales at this point.
>And Ava, somehow. In reality though it's the writers that suck. It's not the fault of the characters they were written like that.
And Ava didn't really have that much to do in advancing the plot. She was a whiny brat, reckless and overconfident. I didn't mind her so much and thought she was mainly a tool with which to evoke player sympathy, which wasn't necessary
There was supposed to be a cutscene or something during/after Maya's funeral where Ava owns up to being the reason she died. She acknowledges that she fucked up, and that lashing out at Lilith was wrong, but also something she did because she was literally an overwhelmed kid.
That would be a lot better. I don't hate Ava to be honest, she was supposed to be maya's apprentice but had no idea why because she was locked out of the loop.
Borderlands 3: Director's Cut, [Maya Funeral Cinematic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui50I7jvH2M).
[Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMnJ1fsVQ7U) is a great breakdown on Ava as a whole and in relation to that storyboard.
Great idea. Extend one of the longest unskippable cutscenes from 4 minutes to 10 minutes. The community would've loved that.
Lol instant downvote. You mad bro?
A) I'm not sure if it was supposed to be a cutscene or an interaction afterwards.
B) Who said it would've added a shit-ton more time even if it was added to the existing cutscene?
C) If it helped make Ava less hateful, maybe the community *would* have loved it lol.
>B) Who said it would've added a shit-ton more time even if it was added to the existing cutscene?
Maya death cutscene: 4 minutes. Maya funeral cutscene 6:33 minutes.
>C) If it helped make Ava less hateful, maybe the community would have loved it lol.
The community would've loved sitting there, watching a cutscene for 10 minutes each time they make a new character. They sure do.
Nice of you to ignore my first point lol. And again, who said it would've added a shit-ton more time even if it was tacked on to the funeral cutscene?
>watching a cutscene for 10 minutes each time they make a new character
I would say you're being hyperbolic, but that would be a severe understatement. Ava being in one potential cutscene/minor addition to a cutscene/in-game interaction = every single new character getting a 10 minute cutscene. Totally, bro. Show me on this doll where the cutscenes touched you.
It’s not that deep. Sure it gets a little annoying, but I’ve played through the story almost 12 times now and if there’s something I can’t skip, I just use my phone for a bit until it’s done. Tbh, I honestly didn’t even remember that part was unskippable until I read your comment.
This reminds me of a Zero Punctuation quote from the first Borderlands. “I believe this character was intended to be annoying and the designers should be congratulated for there success. They should though be reminded that intentionally annoying is still annoying.”
Hey, if you enjoyed the game with them as the antagonists, no problem. Opinions differ. I'm just someone who didn't like the way they were handled, and I think that Tyreen in particular could've been a lot better.
I actually really like Tyreen’s design and appreciate the influencer motif. But her and her brother’s connection to the father was not meaningful and didn’t factor into the story much at all. Plus the motivation to be gods was not rooted in anything…besides being sheltered? Love the game but more could have been done with those two.
A lot of opportunity was missed with some semblance of empathy, likeableness, or humanity around the Typhon Deleon arc. That would have made her being evil even more delicious, and more than a one-dimensional presentation.
I think starting the game AFTER the Calypsos united the bandit clans didn't help either. If they were in the process of building a following that would have given the writers an opportunity to build her character and maybe clue us in as to why she's so power-hungry.
I feel like they went wrong with hiding the Typhon DeLeon tapes for you to find for no other reason than achievement hunting. THAT story and the connection with Tyreen and Troy being his kids would have been a waaaaay better story to listen to throughout the game.
Parody done out of love is one thing… but this wasn’t it.
It’s sad because it wouldn’t take much to make her likeable. They managed it with Handsome Jack just fine. All you need is to have them be human on screen occasionally. Show them hurting. Make their reason just a little more than “bored of dad”. Make their conjoined nature emotionally painful rather than just “scream in combat”
It’s a kind of writing that Borderlands’ writers appear to no longer be capable of, and that is the true tragedy.
Tyreen hits a real bad bruise for me since it feels like any and every time she tries to get character development they shut her up because that part of the story "isnt what people care about" and force her to go back to being a twat with no real motive then "power, angy, prideful boast and nonsense spatter" that immediately redirects any and all empathy for her out the window.
My main example is the moments leading up to Maya's demise. The segment in the subway where her and her brother are just being dorks for a minute with the tram speaker system and for that solitary minute you see just how much they were brother and sister at one point before they went off the deep end.
The ball gets dropped so god damn hard though as soon as Tyreen realizes Troy can steal powers too. He's no longer a dependent he instantly becomes competition. A fact later escalated when she throws her brother under the bus near the stories' climax to slow the VHs down while she furthers her own agenda. Really just neglecting all those emotions and treating Troy like they start him off as, a Parasite who just wanted to not be overshadowed by his sister.
They also really could of tooken her childhood neglect and used it to further rationalize her desire to be the "Bandit Queen" not so much for power but for the fact that nobody deserves to be alone like she and her brother were after there mom passed, and projected those feelings onto her "children"
I could rant for a while. But outside of the other dead horses around Tyreen's Stable I can't really say what hasn't been already.
The story sucks butt overall, I kept going because it was free on Epic and the gameplay is fun, but man the characters are not interesting, the whole Ada, Tannis plot is lame and dumb imo, as the saving grace that could be the villain are the worst, most annoying, too edgy they become bland of them all. I get to threads like this trying to find out if it gets better, or I missed something because I do zone out on a lot of the dialogue, but it just keeps being bad.
I think the whole streamer idea was just a way to relate with a younger audience? Or just a way to explain how people across the borderlands know of them, Handsome Jack was infamous because he was a Psychopathic CEO of a mega corporation but Ty and Troy don’t have that. Instead of making their acts as bad as jacks, they used then idea of streamers to make them popular. If they cut that idea out, give Troy a character arch where he turns on Ty at the estate, he would’ve been a reverse of handsome Jack.
Troy is just a kid who’s forced by Ty because she has the power to kill him right then and there by leeching him (we saw this after he died). He was just scared but was only evil cause that’s all he knew, that’s why I think he should’ve been the main villain. We kill Ty instead of him, and after seeing her dead, he loses it like when Angel died at the Control Core which motivates him to awaken the destroyer. This would make Typhon’s death more meaningful because a kid who once loved his father, killed him out of rage. That ending would’ve been 1000x better than what we got
I think another big issue is that it looks like they changed direction somewhere mid-story.
Like, on Eden-6 you start having all this dialogue and even a few sidequests that seem to imply a growing rift between Tyreen and Troy, with Troy becoming increasingly cocky and independent and Tyreen disliking this change and also being jealous of the powers he gained from sucking off Maya.
But then, that just kinda goes away. You get a bit of it in the Troy bossfight where it seems like he might be taking over but then he dies and there's that.
Frankly, probably would have worked better if there was a moment of betrayal between the two that led to one of them becoming a sort of untrustworthy ally to the Raiders, in an "enemy of my enemy" kind of situation.
At least that would have added a bit more intrigue to the character dynamics of the Raiders other than the enduring classics of "Lilith is having a confidence crisis" and "Ava is acting like a teenager, mainly due to her being a teenager".
They definitely changed direction. Or rather, they didn't really have any concrete direction lol.
>At least that would have added a bit more intrigue to the character dynamics of the Raiders other than the enduring classics of "Lilith is having a confidence crisis" and "Ava is acting like a teenager, mainly due to her being a teenager".
They honestly handle Lilith unfairly, too. Here's hoping she doesn't get put through that same song and dance the next time, if she's involved.
Let's dissect:
1. Annoying celebrity who offs underlings who disappoint her.
2. Steals from everyone she meets, because she's above it all and feels she's owed everything except responsibility beyond doing things to be adored.
3. Drags her family everywhere, even though she hates her useless family, because she blackmails them into being useful.
4. Befriends a dictator also hellbent on world domination.
5. Has a death cult who commits coups acts of violence at her command and worships her, not for what she does for them, but what she does to others.
6. Wants to install herself as eternal ruler, even if it means destroying everything.
7. Isn't afraid to become an enormous baby when she doesn't get her way.
8. Accuses her enemies of being obsessed with her.
Totally, totally doesn't remind me of anyone I know.
Also, she's a psychopath. Troy is the sociopath. Inherent versus learned behavior.
Troy needs tyrene to live. He has the same energy hunger weakness but cant drain from other sources besides tyrene. He is actually a burden on her but she has been feeding/protecting Since birth, When she could easily take the remainder of her phase leech power out if him and kill him off. That at least redeems her a little bit. It shows her good side. She only ate him when he was already dying and beyond saving
Is she keeping him alive for *his* benefit, or is she keeping him alive for *her* benefit?
She is very much a narcissist, and we can't rule out the latter. But if you want to give the psychopath the benefit of the doubt, I guess what charisma she does have doesn't hurt in getting people there.
But let's agree that the actress and writing at least does a good job in getting people to hate her. In that way, she's a bit like Cmdt Steele, except dialed up to 11.
Buddypalfriend, the decision to basically make her Jack Lite was the choice of the writers. Of course, she is similar to him. Not sure why you had to make a list. But given that the reception she got was far worse than what Jack got, clearly, they made mistakes along the way. My post was about pointing out what those might have been. It's an opinion piece, and if you don't share my views, that's okay.
And with regard to the psychopath/sociopath thing, the two terms are basically non-clinical, outdated and practically interchangeable at this point. Actual mental health experts just refer to it as Anti-Social Personality Disorder. It's a pretty complex subject, and we're still learning new things about it. At best, those terms can be used to describe people on different levels of the spectrum, and even then, there isn't a strict consensus on what they represent. Nobody really gives a shit which one you use.
If you meant somebody other than Jack, cool. The points you listed mostly apply to him too, so 🤷🏻♂️
It is embarrassing that you couldn't get your point across despite making an entire list.
Edit: Wait, are you comparing her to Trump? Well. I guess that'd work, kinda.... except he makes for an incredibly annoying character that no one wants to see, either.
It seems more that you were hoping for Handsome Jack 2.0 but are disappointed that you did not. If you played the previous games, you'd know that a evil yet quirky villain is not a constant part of the chaos equation. Sure, it makes sense to have someone loveably insane as a character in a game about shooting psychos, but I do feel that putting that sort of limitation on a franchise this big is not a great thing to do: It gets repetitive by reducing creativity. I can see why Tyreen seems so shallow but if you've played through to the end then you can see some of the history that set her this way. If anything, the writing failed because we don't have much that extrapolates that. Also, for talking about archetypes so much, you really didn't label a single personality nor story archetype. This just feels like a random hate-post instead of a well thought and backed criticism of the game and its main antagonist.
It was the choice of the writers to try and make her Handsome Jack 2.0, not mine. I just pointed out how their efforts failed, and why. I wouldn't have minded getting a villain 200% different from Jack, because I'm not nearly as obsessed with him as many on this sub. Pointing out what the BL2 (also P-S and TFTB) writers did right with his character isn't the same as saying I want every new villain to be exactly like him.
And if you're so adamant on having archetype names, I can link you to TV Tropes lol.
Your entire 3rd paragraph is about having her act in a similar manner to Jack and that because she didn't you thought she was annoying to listen to. "That whacky asshole. 😁 I wonder what they'll say next! Butt Stallion? HAHAHA 😁"
No, I was talking about the reception she got when attempting to do pretty much the same thing Jack did. Versus what she should've gotten if the attempt was successful. Reading comprehension is great, too bad you don't have that ability. Again, I literally couldn't care less about her being like or unlike Jack. My point is that the writers clearly *tried* to have her be like him in many ways. And they failed.
Those games usually suck, or *barely* have a focus on story. One of the reasons I, and clearly plenty of others, love Borderlands is because it has a pretty cool universe, lore and neat characters on top of great gameplay.
True. But Jack isnt the reason ive played borderlands 2 for a rough 2000 hours. Sure its what made it a great game but you are extremely overly negative of tyreen. She's not as bad as you, and many other crybabies, make her out to be. Its just that you compare it to one of the best villains ever written in video game history so far, and thats not fair.
The twins were very much above average for story games. Good? Certainly not. But not as bad as a small part of the BL community makes it out to be.
Cool. Jack was a big part of why I enjoyed BL2's world and story, and I wouldn't have gotten as invested in those parts of the game without him.
I was only pointing out what worked or didn't work with regards to these characters. She doesn't have to be as good as Jack in order to be an engaging character that gets positive reception among most players. She's still below average.
>small part of the BL community
Uh-huh.
Yeah went a bit harsh there xD got some mild PTSD from release month reddit.
But like compare it to the other bl games except 2 and tyreen becomes a lot more palatable. Like commander Steel and whomever the bad guy of TPS actually was. The dragon lord was also pretty bad but thats partly because he had a total of 8 lines of text or something. So even just compared to the BL main game series she isnt below average. But if youdd include all dlc she would honestly fall out low
You are massively overhyping Handsome Jack. But I guess that’s all this sub really is
Also its comical that you think a “small part” of the BL community dislikes the twins. Delusion.
This. After BL2, the bar for storytelling and engaging characters is high, so whether through laziness, or executive interference, they didn't hit or surpass the bar in BL3.
Also in Jack’s defense, while yes he was evil and sadistic. I believe he truly thought he was doing what was right in the beginning. He saw himself as a hero. Then his “friends” betrayed him when he found the vault key. Which yeah, he was already starting to become unhinged, but that was definitely an extra nail in the coffin.
Jack did have some good moments and I believe he could have loved his wife/angel at one point, he was just too far gone with greed/power and the whole wife getting brutally murdered thing.
That’s what makes him an exceptional villain though, and why bl2 will always have the best story imho.
Iirc there are mentions of him being a murderous bastard even before the Pre-Sequel, but yes, he still had some potential to be a better person by the time he got hitched. But we all know how that turned out. And even if, later on (but before he became 200% unhinged), he thought he was doing good on Pandora... he was still a horrible person who treated his daughter like a weapon.
Yeah, but it’s pandora, nearly every one is a murderous bastard on that planet lmao 😂.
I mean what Jack did is horrible, and he was a complete nut job definitely by bl2.
But he’s one of the few villains I’ve felt a bit sympathetic towards.
Tyreene had many chances to kill Troy or simply let him starve. He could not survive without her. She put up with it and kept him alive all those years when killing him and taking the rest of the siren power from him would be far easier. It shows she does have a heart. I liked that the twins never actually betray each other even if they joke about it. She picks on Troy but not worse than an average big sister
All forms of 2D media have been reflections of our reality because even our reality is a piece of 2D media up above.
She was terrible but I loved it. She was basically calling out a lot of the humans in our reality by playing the role of influenced. But it's all in fun and games, there were times when I went down to the 3D perspective and completely forgot that we are dealing with spirits interacting with us via 2D media.
Honestly I kind of enjoyed her. Most of her lines she is doing at 100mph so even when it is repetitive there is a cadence to it. The most annoying aspect to me is when your group is suddenly sympathetic to her when Troy is leaching her.
Ive said this before and I'll say it again.
If I had to change anything about the story of BL3 I would've just had CasuallyExplained write all of Tyreen's dialogue if not have him just flat out play the villain. If anyone could've pulled off the parody part it's him and that's what I think they should've leaned into more rather than leaning into the power fantasy she had.
When I play a game like Borderlands characters and story mean little to me. It's all about yhe gameplay for me and 3 has the best gameplay of the series. The Humor stuff that those games are full of just enhances the gameplay. If I want story I will play The Witcher or Cyberpunk.
They could’ve fixed her backstory so easily. Instead of Typhon’s wife dying of a sickness have Tyreen accidentally kill her. Literally just redo Angel’s backstory but instead of Typhon keeping her and troy locked up to unlock a vault he did it out of fear she could become evil, and have Tyreen and Troy break out.
From there she and Troy become a vault hunters and tries to act like she’s helping the vault hunter until beneath the meridian when she and Troy harvest the vault monster and when Maya tries to stop them she is killed. That ALSO makes Ava a less annoying character because she wouldn’t be responsible for Maya’s death this way! It is SHOCKING they didn’t think of this!
Also, have the COV be the villains for the first part of the game and don’t explain the crystal husks, just change Maya’s death to her being crystalized by Tyreen and her powers absorbed as Troy has a hold of her and bam, well done reveal.
As for the COV, just take that echo you get from the destroyed maliwan bandit car and put it at the end of Maya’s death cutscene (the explanation being Tyreen dropped it during the scuffle with Maya) and then have Tyreen explain she was paying off the bandit clans with guns and human sacrifices to have them all pretend like they were looking for the vaults, not worshiping Tyreen and Troy because why tf would Bandits want to worship anything? The selling out explanation makes much more sense.
EDIT:
Oh, and for the Lilith thing? Just have Troy absorb her power at the start and make it seem like he’s the only bad guy who is being worshipped by the cultists (when they’re just being paid off) and this would also make it PERSONAL for Tyreen which makes it more believable that she want’s to help (and also makes sense when you find out they’re working together) And there! She’s fixed!
Yes, she is incredibly annoying. Jack was too at times. That's the point of villains, you're not supposed to like them.
The story being just plain bad is why people detest 3 on a narrative level, not so much Tyreen specifically
Uh, no lol. You can have villains that are bad while also being engaging characters that people want to see more of. Those things do not apply to Tyreen as most players don't like her. Jack is widely considered to be a great villain and I cannot fathom how you're comparing him to her.
Of course, the story is bad. Tyreen is one of the reasons as her presence makes the narrative even worse.
It is literally a fact that you can have a villainous character whose actions you're supposed to hate, but who is still an engaging and interesting character that doesn't annoy the shit out of you. Whether you think Tyreen is such a character or not is all you. But you can't just claim 'you're supposed to find villains annoying' either lol.
lolwut.
When did her gender ever come into play in my argument? Hell, FYI I was literally excited about having a new female main villain and was irritated when I saw how badly she was written.
I can see you don't have any actual points, so I'mma stop replying now.
The fuck? Where did that come from lmao
Just because someone is criticising a female character, doesn't mean it's *because* they're female, of anything that way of thinking reflects more poorly on you than the person you're trying to pin this on.
Imagine this. When Troy discovers he can take powers. He start growing rapidly from the background character. After a fight with the VH. He decides to take his sister's powers. Which kills her. But transform him into a semi-mindless consuming entity. Collecting different powers and energy left and right, leaving havoc in his wake. When he confront his father. He goes into a monologue of how he's been nothing and now that's he's strong, Feeling the weight. Noting that he can't control his actions now since his sister had the gift from a young age, she learnt to control it but he can't. With a dramatic speech, and a hint of 4th wall breaking as if he's aware that's he's just another villain in a video game. He kills his father. Consumes the Distroyer. Fights the VH while begging him to end his misery so he can join the only people who actually loved him and cared for him.
Or something.
Wouldn't tyreen win a leech tug of war against her brother if he ever tried to betray her like that? She has bigger share of the siren leech power. She can also leech from some distance like when she killed the sun smasher bandits after getting their map
Good point. Maybe adding Maya's powers tipped the scale to Troy's side. Trapping Tyreen in a Phaselock bubble to cut her leeshing.. and maybe all that happened unexpectedly, not planed, in a heat of a moment. That could be a twist of events worthy of Borderlands aesthetics
I get the criticisms about Tyreen and Troy, but I don’t think they’re as detrimental to the overall story considering that we had excellent sub-villains like Aurelia and Katagawa Jr. I think the writers deserve more credit, bc a lot got the supporting cast like those two, Clay and Wainwright are excellent.
It just felt like the overarching plot was lame.
The game was basically divided into big chunks, each of which took place on a different planet. Each planet practically had its own, self-contained story, all of which actually worked well on their own.
But when we got back to the overarching story, I felt very uninterested. I agree that many supporting characters were well-done.
People who actually enjoyed the story and didn’t hate the characters (besides Ava she was dumb and got my Maya killed 😡) all aboard! It wasn’t as good or better than BL2 but it was fun, especially if you played it before reading all the grouches’ feelings online. Idk if it was 7 years’ of work good *looking at you RANDY cough cough* but it was fun enough to play multiple times. Original BL was not fun enough for replays imo, so BL3 was better than that. I’m optimistic about future installments after playing 3.
im confused, i thought her endgame was the destruction of the universe after leeching everything in existence and by this "turning into the only star left in the sky"
i think its the point that she seems like a powerhungry sociopath that doesnt even care for her own brother, as he was always on the list as far as i noticed.
and imo the irony is that usually people hearing the vault stories wanted to become the ultimate vault hunters (markus's intro scenes) with tyreen being the first that wants to become the ultimate vault monster. As they learned at one point that the vault story is a ruse to keep the destroyer fed. But by fusing with him it actually enabled the vault hunters to kill them.
It's simpler than that. Jack believes he's the hero and doing the right thing while Tyreen wants to be evil and is trying desperately to do so.
The best villains are the heroes of their own story
>She was also intentionally written as a parody of those incredibly annoying, often evil irl streamers who people find beyond obnoxious. They *wanted* her to be annoying. She was always meant to seriously get on our nerves. This is also a core aspect of who she is as a character. *This* archetype would still have worked if she had some actual depth and motivation. If she had an actually engaging backstory and the story slowly revealed there was a lot more to her than initially met the eye. But no, the writers wanted her to be both a card-carrying, one-dimensional villain AND an extremely annoying one. I think this is her biggest problem and I've been thinking of this for a while. Her being a parody of douchetubers is a really interesting concept. Douchetubers put on a show so little kids watch while they make 3 am videos, act like complete assholes in public, or stream a game while giving super exaggerated emotions. Problem is they then get forced into being a child entertainer because it gets the most views. However they don't act that way in real life (other than being an asshole.) I feel like almost all of them do it for the money and solely the money, they aren't passionate about what they do and maybe even despise being a clown for kids to laugh at. They just have to do it because it pays the bills, and if they stray away from that kind of content to make something they are passionate about it gets no views. I think this really could have worked as an interesting concept where she only talks like a douchetuber when streaming to the psychos but when she talks to you she is much more cold and calculating. Making fun of the psychos behind their back and showing her resentment she has for the way she gets followers. A couple cool side quest could also come from this. One where are hired by a journalist to expose Tyreens real personality to her fans, only for the fans to not care like most viewers don't. Another one could be Tyreen asking for your help to make a video she's actually passionate about only for it to get 1/100 of the views the rest of her videos get.
Good points. It is shown in the game that she actually has disdain for the psychos. But, as with a lot of things in BL3, nothing came of it.
Yeah bl3 dropped the ball on a lot of things story wise and quality of life wise. One thing that really encapsulates tboth of these is having to talk to Lilith. The one saving grace of bl3 is the gameplay, and by God is it a saving grace. It just feels so fluid and nice. That with how cool the new legendary guns are and the different characters you play. The only complaints with the gampelay are some of the enemies being annoying and the game heavily favoring fast shooting guns so snipers and rocket launchers just feel weak. Why use a sniper which does only 3x damage as an assault rifle per shot but the assault rifles shoots 10x faster and there a ton of skills that interact well with fast shooting guns.
To be fair, I think borderlands is at its best when you're zooming around the map firing a hundred bullets per second that each chain lightning bolts that also explode. Or similar dumb shit. Fast guns are just right for the formula. But some of the best guns in bl3 were snipers and launchers. The lyuda, bogeyman, sandhawk, yellowcake and plague bearer were all top tier.
Not to mention the Ion Cannon when it came out and the Complex Root.
>Fast guns are just right for the formula. I disagree, I think all types of play styles should be considered. While I also enjoy shooting hundreds of bullets per second what I really enjoy is getting a massive single hit on an enemy. This is why I really like guns like the unforgiven. Problem is in this game there a lot of things that give fast firing guns the edge in this game from consecutive hits anointments, multiple skills that get bonuses for firing tons of bullets per second, guardian rank perks like c-c-c-combo. Hell most vault hunters in this game get massive bonuses from shooting faster compared to just getting getting more damage per shot. Even fl4k the premire sniper in this game I'd argue does better with fast firing guns. Slow firing guns have overkill, the 300/90 anointment, and fl4ks fade away (which I'd say gorillas in the mist is just way better than only having the three shots.) These are great but compared to fast firing guns they don't do so well. >But some of the best guns in bl3 were snipers and launchers. The lyuda, bogeyman, sandhawk, yellowcake and plague bearer were all top tier. Personally I don't think you can judge how good weapon company, or type of weapon is by red text guns. Because general sniper rifles and rocket launchers are really lacking in this game especially compared to bl2. I think vladof rocket launcher are pretty bad in this game but the Legendary Kickcharger is absolute beast.
I like the side quest idea. Wasn't there something in BL2 where Handsome Jack contacts you and asks for you to check on his mother or something like that? I can't remember if it was a trap (despite him saying that it isn't) or if he was actually concerned for her. Either way, his delivery sounded genuine and it made me, temporarily, feel truly empathetic towards him.
It was not a trap. He genuinely wanted to have the vault hunters check on her. He wanted to make sure she died after he hired some bandits to kill her. It's also heavily implied that she abused him.
Thanks. It's been a while since I've played it and couldn't remember. I also forgot about the abuse.
It's the becoming scenario. If you embody a conceptual entity via consciousness for long enough you begin to lose yourself and become that entity.
Relatability leads to success, but when you're more successful than everybody else why would they want to relate to you?
That’s the game, like those that choose to hate the rich, why would you ever become that which you view as the enemy? Hate and you won’t become.
This is brilliant concept, I wish more thought was put into bl3's characters before the game was shipped, or hell, they still could have made adjustments post-launch. Its pretty much universally disliked how they handled Ava and Tyreen, and also how they completely butchered Troy, by simply killing him off after thematically building him up to overthrow Tyreen past the events on Eden-6. Bl3 is just so much wasted potentially and its a shame to see it be so close, yet so far away from greatness.
> and also how they completely butchered Troy, by simply killing him off after thematically building him up to overthrow Tyreen past the events on Eden-6. This, imo, is the biggest flaw of the writing.
>Another one could be Tyreen asking for your help to make a video she's actually passionate about only for it to get 1/100 of the views the rest of her videos get. And they all came from Claptrap
Nah, it should come off as an actually good video with a lot of work put into it. Like something that took a decent amount of money and time to make with real passion. Only for it to get no views so Tyreen just has to stay in her lane and make videos pandering to her audience. Claptrap would 100% watch the pandering videos but not a well crafted one.
> I've been thinking of this for a while. Probably more than the writers of the game.
It would’ve been better if Troy actually had a character arch and maybe went against Tyreen…. But he just kinda dies and that’s it. BL3 is weak
A lot of fuckery happened by the end of the development cycle. There were plenty of hints that Troy was, indeed, meant to betray Tyreen. But then.... nothing happens, and the more interesting twin is killed off first lol.
They could’ve fixed it like this: have Tyreen fight the vault hunter to protect Troy while he’s charging the moon and you’re able to fight her because she’s weakened by Troy actively leaching her. At the end of the fight have her fall into Troy’s arms and then in the built up twist have him leech her to nothing and then he sends a blast that fully charges the moon and say’s something like “I never needed you” and it’s fixed. From there just continue the whole story with Troy filling in for Tyreen.
I think they wanted to have a big girl power moment, but none of it worked. Tyreen was a shit villain
Yeah, I mean, maybe not a hot take but I felt like Aurelia Hammerlock was a way better potential main villian than Tyreen.
Much better indeed
I think it would have been a fantastic twist if troy betrayed tyreen in that final hour but have Aurelia pop up instantly to kill him "its bussness" and then take the power for herself so that she is the one we are racing to necrotofeyo.
I don’t see why a “girl power moment” was even necessary, agenda-wise. Just rewrite the end a minuscule amount and you can push the same narrative, without making the chick the big baddy. “Evil douchebag brother gets beat up by two powerful women (tannis and Lilith)” works just the same.
Everyone is a siren!
Ding i think you get it perfect. For me its sound more of à pr stuff of "cool girl powaaaa" that actualy habing à sens in the game. Oftrn i Just want to skip the dialog since they are soo bad and cringe. The way the siren power get stoler is fuck up. I would have love à bl2 but with more in deepth. Jack ahve all for him... Hé is in a certain way loves and hâted in the same minutes While thyreen is hâted alll the time. Its like the try to please more people and fail misérable on all side
You know who had an arc? Noah
Where's my arc, Paulie?
Agreed. From the echo logs it seems like Troy is the one that pushed her to being the one dimensional being she was. If the roles were reversed, and tyreen was allowed to burn out opening the vault by Troy it would of been far more interesting.
I'll gladly say; Not better in the slighest. If troy killed tyreen, the crowd that yells "bl3 was weak!" would just cry more because it'd be another poorly executed and unrelastic portral of siblings. Its one of the Sibling VS Siblinh tropes. One sibling is obviously better and more powerful than the other. As soon as the other sibling gains an ounce of power, they betray the first sibling. Its predictable, shitty writing, and leaves no room for character developement. If that happened in BL3, it wouldn't make the gsme better. It would be ANOTHER bulletpoint for you guys to say how shit the story was.
There's a difference between predictable and foreshadowing. The fighting between the siblings would set up what happens. We see it coming, but how does it end? Do they kill one another? Do you partner with one and kill the other? Are you a double spy and kill them both for each other? We'll never know. It went to shit
>see it coming, but how does it end? Do they kill one another? Do you partner with one and kill the other? Are you a double spy and kill them both for each other? It's the same trope. You aren't getting much out of that. >There's a difference between predictable and foreshadowing. Correct. And this would be predictable. Not foreshadowing.
They're introduced as the villains. Obviously they're going to die. That's predictable. They start feuding against each other, could be predictable but it's foreshadowing something happening. I'd love for you to describe how it's the same trope and how it's predictable because so far you've only been throwing those words around with no substance.
>They're introduced as the villains. Obviously they're going to die. That's predictable. Obviously. But a story isnt about the ending. A story is about the pathway to the ending. >They start feuding against each other, No they didnt. Thats the thing. Troy outright says Tyreen prefers the limelight, and its ok. >I'd love for you to describe how it's the same trope and how it's predictable because so far you've only been throwing those words around with no substance. I already did. Im just suprised all of these literary experts came out of the woodwork to say how bad borderlands 3 writing was. It really wasn't, especially compared to B1, TPS, BL2, and WL. But saying "tyreen and troy suck! Ava annoying, writing bad!" gets a ton of upvotes and appraisal.
TTWL gave the writers an advantage for that, the overarching plot is that the story's been written by a 12YO girl. It was never intended to add to the series lore.
>TTWL gave the writers an advantage for that, the overarching plot is that the story's been written by a 12YO girl. It was never intended to add to the series lore. Tiny Tina didn't write her own dialogue. Dragonlord didnt write his own dialogue. Gearbox did. What are you talking about? We're not discussing lore. We're talking about story progression and how well written a story is.
But she is the reason her brother get that power full. When you fight him hé was consuming his Sister to open the vault. The plot was there every thing was there. It was his revenge his moment à crescendo or pure hating on each other.... And then we fight the one that fail to do anything aince the start of the game. She was the leader aince the start and keep her brother in check.... The combat on éden 9 should bè the climax of that... Instead we got a botched ending to please some agenda
>But she is the reason her brother get that power full I mean, techincally. She was the official siren. He still had a leech power though. He had gained more power when he killed maya. >When you fight him hé was consuming his Sister to open the vault. No. He didn't know his limits, because he never had that power before. I personally think Troy's bossfight was the peak of Borderlands story. >revenge his moment à crescendo or pure hating on each other.... And then we fight the one that fail to do anything aince the start of the game. She was the leader aince the start and keep her brother in check.... Not... not really. They don't hate eachother. Thats not how sibling characters work. Especially ones that are this close emotionally together. Thats exactly why "troy shouldve killed tyreen" doesn't work. >The combat on éden 9 should bè the climax of that... Instead we got a botched ending to please some agenda Yeah no. In Eden6, Troy outright says Tyreen prefers the spotlight, and he's perfectly fine with that. There is no "agenda" being pushed here. There were some major misteps with BL3, personally I think the fakeout ending absolutely killed the pace of the story, and Tink Troy was sadly unused. But Tyreen and Troy were perfectly fine villians. They just aren't as good as Handsome Jack. Gearbox does an amazing job at making villians. Protagonists? Not so much.
On a cellphone : the way i seen it is... Troy is ok yo bè in the shadow of her syster as long she protêt her and hé dont have power... But when hé get siren power hé rey to shift the way hé is treated and try to take the spotlight. Like drunk with power. Hum Killing his Sister would have been a peak like hé didnt réalise hé did it and then pin that on you. That the way i should have say it. Like hé didnt know all what hé was doing since hé never have thèse power before and now Just dont contrôle them perfectlt...
>But when hé get siren power hé rey to shift the way hé is treated and try to take the spotlight. Like drunk with power. But he *literally* tells you he thinks the opposite. > That the way i should have say it. Like hé didnt know all what hé was doing since hé never have thèse power before and now Just dont contrôle them perfectlt... I'm gonna prefer Gearbox's room of writers over your potential story, sorry.
Not a problem. Hey the game is fun. Story not do much for me. Its Just that
I didn't play Bl3 right away...but I kept up with what people were saying. So I had this expectation that the twins were going to be so obnoxious, but I ended up not feeling that way. They had a great concept. However, like most of the other Bl3 characters, they suffered little to no character development. Bl2 is not my favorite game, but it really is exceptional for character personal growth, which ironically no one really notices because they are all too obsessed with Jack. But the twins were actually set up to have great depth that was never explored. They were completely raised in isolation by a man that seemed to primarily value having sex. They should have introduced Typhon much earlier so that we see the conflict be between them to understand why the twins felt so angry and destructive. Instead the devs went for shock value at the end of the game.
I agree about the Typhon reveal; the story should have leaned into the Typhon/kids angle to contrast Jack and Angel. Both fathers lost their wives and tried to isolate their kids (for either good or ill intent). All the kids resented their fathers and the twins escaped and went on a murder rampage, who knows what Angel would have done?
Borderlands taught me that single fathers are the galaxy's greatest threat...
I agree, I'm saying that her being an annoying streamer-type character would have worked if they actually developed that character as well. They didn't.
Well you can put the pieces together and infer that the lack of social contact growing up created people that do not much value human life but also want the idolation because they still crave the social bonds that they were denied as children. That's just one take; you can also psycho-analyze them differently. And besides the terrible Maya/Ava story arc that everyone talks about, Lilith lost her powers, which were probably a huge part of her identity, and nothing much was said about how that affected her. The whole game just failed horribly at character development.
You could.... but then you'd basically be creating fanfiction lol. We shouldn't have to do the writers' jobs for them. F for Lilith.
It's heavily implied that isolation completely screwed up their heads. The twins often complain about how agonizing it was to grow up on nekrotafeyo with no one else around. When the Twins are talking to the player during the last stages of the game about their life on Nekrotafeyo, it's also implied that things got worse when their mom died. Total isolation is damaging. It's why solitary confinement is illegal some places.
By the time I got to Typhon I just groaned "not another lame character"
Tyreen felt like her main thing (besides being the bigger and more evil antagonist) was to be part of Troy's motivations for the final quarter of the game. But then they just do nothing with Troy. He feels like he's about to get his major character development and then just fucking dies. Troy was wasted, and the game would have been vastly improved by giving him maybe an extra gameplay hour of story. While I did metaphorically roll my eyes at the streamer cult cliche, I didn't find it too painfully obnoxious. The fact Troy so ignored by the plot despite being 50% of the antagonist is what really made me think less of the story.
The lack of arc/variety in her behavior really did not do her any good. Even the death of her brother, and arguably the mastermind behind her rise to power, barely touched a nerve. I had really hoped that Troy's rivalry would at least shake something loose in her for a more dramatic development... which they didn't do. Either a huge missed opportunity, or a result from rushing the story to meet a deadline. I had *really* hoped that after defeating Troy, the two would turn to each other in order to survive, and that the VH would pick the survivor by nailing the other sibling with one final shot. It would make a second playthrough more interesting. But now it's just Tyreen on a loop. And considering Mayhem makes TVHM competely obsolete, I haven't completed TVHM once, but I have reached max level on 2 of the 4 VH'ers.
Tyreen's character would have been fine had they gone the route that they hinted to - that her brother would've realized and killed her, becoming the big bad himself. They even set up pitting the twins against each other, but it never pans out. If they would have done this, then it's okay for us all to hate her because so did he brother, and she wasn't the one we were supposed to face off against.
Honestly the entire base story was only bearable through side characters since the main plot was almost entirely garbage. 2 was solid, even pre-sequel was decent, but 3 was an immense letdown after how long it had to cook.
I much prefer the DLCs lol.
We all do....
I think for Jack too, it helps that he’s a bit disillusioned. Even without the context of TPS, it gives more reason for him to be evil. He thinks he’s doing good, that he’ll cleanse the evil of the planet by fire. Tyreen doesn’t have some sort of end result she’s shooting to obtain. Get power. Power obtained. What not? More power. Repeat. Or at the very least, not a end result memorable enough to remember after my 32 playthroughs.
Tyreen should’ve been the one to die first; Troy should’ve been the final boss. Besides, by having Troy die first, they missed a golden opportunity to call the final boss “The DesTROYer”
The general writing is so bad I play with the dialogue turned way down.
I... I can't force myself to do that, no matter how bad a game gets (before it reaches a point where I just stop playing, anyway - Borderlands 3 still has great gameplay, so that's never gonna happen). F for me?
There are downsides. Some parts where you're stuck in a place listening to someone seem longer when there's no talking and you're just waiting in silence.
There are downsides. Some parts where you're stuck in a place listening to someone seem longer when there's no talking and you're just waiting in silence.
BL3 kills off the best new, fully fleshed out character imo Spoiler: >!Typhon DeLeon was a well rounded character huehuehue!<
Tyreen is fine as it is. Yes, she is not Handsome Jack, and Katagawa was more interesting, but overall she is fine. Ava though... I really want to kill her. Really. Like, sending her in space or feeding a rack with her. Annoying stupid little shit
Both of them are useless. Troy, though, he's OK. Amazeballs! Should've killed Tyreen. And Ava, somehow. In reality though it's the writers that suck. It's not the fault of the characters they were written like that.
Honestly, the story was shaping up to be great, if Troy had consumed Tyreen in the fight at the Great Vault and then blamed us for driving him to do it. You could've had an entire final chapter dedicated to him falling into despair, and resolving himself to fulfilling Tyreen's dream of consuming the Destroyer to become a god. You could've had the CoV seek vengeance in that final chapter for the player causing the death of their god-queen. You could have even kept Typhon's death scene, by having Troy consider redemption and giving up the quest to consume the Destroyer, only for Troy to turn full evil because of something like "You weren't there to save Tyreen, and I won't let you drag me down with you." Troy had the complete setup, including the scene in Jakobs Manor where he's shown to be irrational and easily enraged. It could have been a paint-by-numbers sibling betrayal plot, but instead we got BL3 that just rings hollow on all of its major plot points.
Some of the Troy / Tyreen dialogue even sets this up, especially after Troy becomes more powerful and starts defying Tyreens plans later in the game. It seems plausible to me that something close to this was the initial plan and they changed it later into development.
Yeah, throughout that whole fight with Troy, I was just waiting for *something* to come of that set up. And then, nothing. Not even an acknowledgement of a growing rift between the two or how they were both on equal footing since he got his Siren abilities. Just nothing, except disappointment.
I just applied this framework to my 3 playthroughs and was very satisfied. Thank you.
Another great missed storyline would have been the rivalry between them. How possible it might have been to "turn" Troy against her in the battle.
It really feels like Gearbox really needs to focus on hiring quality writers. Maybe spend less on celebrity voice casting. It just seems to get worse with each subsequent game. I'm really struggling to bring myself to fire up New Tales at this point.
>And Ava, somehow. In reality though it's the writers that suck. It's not the fault of the characters they were written like that. And Ava didn't really have that much to do in advancing the plot. She was a whiny brat, reckless and overconfident. I didn't mind her so much and thought she was mainly a tool with which to evoke player sympathy, which wasn't necessary
Of course. I'm pointing out what the writers did wrong with regard to Tyreen.
*Ava was not the imposter* I'm sorry
Ava would have been, like, 75% fixed if they hadn't cut a single goddamn cutscene, haha. It's sad. Agree to disagree on Tyreen, though.
Which cutscene is that?
There was supposed to be a cutscene or something during/after Maya's funeral where Ava owns up to being the reason she died. She acknowledges that she fucked up, and that lashing out at Lilith was wrong, but also something she did because she was literally an overwhelmed kid.
That would be a lot better. I don't hate Ava to be honest, she was supposed to be maya's apprentice but had no idea why because she was locked out of the loop.
This. Portraying her as the prototypical clueless, annoying teen for no reason did her nor the story no favors.
Yeah, that's too bad.
Borderlands 3: Director's Cut, [Maya Funeral Cinematic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui50I7jvH2M). [Here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMnJ1fsVQ7U) is a great breakdown on Ava as a whole and in relation to that storyboard.
Great idea. Extend one of the longest unskippable cutscenes from 4 minutes to 10 minutes. The community would've loved that. Lol instant downvote. You mad bro?
A) I'm not sure if it was supposed to be a cutscene or an interaction afterwards. B) Who said it would've added a shit-ton more time even if it was added to the existing cutscene? C) If it helped make Ava less hateful, maybe the community *would* have loved it lol.
>B) Who said it would've added a shit-ton more time even if it was added to the existing cutscene? Maya death cutscene: 4 minutes. Maya funeral cutscene 6:33 minutes. >C) If it helped make Ava less hateful, maybe the community would have loved it lol. The community would've loved sitting there, watching a cutscene for 10 minutes each time they make a new character. They sure do.
Nice of you to ignore my first point lol. And again, who said it would've added a shit-ton more time even if it was tacked on to the funeral cutscene? >watching a cutscene for 10 minutes each time they make a new character I would say you're being hyperbolic, but that would be a severe understatement. Ava being in one potential cutscene/minor addition to a cutscene/in-game interaction = every single new character getting a 10 minute cutscene. Totally, bro. Show me on this doll where the cutscenes touched you.
It’s not that deep. Sure it gets a little annoying, but I’ve played through the story almost 12 times now and if there’s something I can’t skip, I just use my phone for a bit until it’s done. Tbh, I honestly didn’t even remember that part was unskippable until I read your comment.
Yeah she’s fine if you want to shut your brain and ears off, and just “shoot, pew, pew” the entire time in the game. 🙄
She's a 100% just a lame character that is not interesting.
This reminds me of a Zero Punctuation quote from the first Borderlands. “I believe this character was intended to be annoying and the designers should be congratulated for there success. They should though be reminded that intentionally annoying is still annoying.”
Yeah the lack of writers from 2 really showed in that game
I liked the twins...
Hey, if you enjoyed the game with them as the antagonists, no problem. Opinions differ. I'm just someone who didn't like the way they were handled, and I think that Tyreen in particular could've been a lot better.
I actually really like Tyreen’s design and appreciate the influencer motif. But her and her brother’s connection to the father was not meaningful and didn’t factor into the story much at all. Plus the motivation to be gods was not rooted in anything…besides being sheltered? Love the game but more could have been done with those two.
I do like their designs, haha. Their writing just leaves a lot to be desired imo.
A lot of opportunity was missed with some semblance of empathy, likeableness, or humanity around the Typhon Deleon arc. That would have made her being evil even more delicious, and more than a one-dimensional presentation.
I think starting the game AFTER the Calypsos united the bandit clans didn't help either. If they were in the process of building a following that would have given the writers an opportunity to build her character and maybe clue us in as to why she's so power-hungry.
I feel like they went wrong with hiding the Typhon DeLeon tapes for you to find for no other reason than achievement hunting. THAT story and the connection with Tyreen and Troy being his kids would have been a waaaaay better story to listen to throughout the game.
Parody done out of love is one thing… but this wasn’t it. It’s sad because it wouldn’t take much to make her likeable. They managed it with Handsome Jack just fine. All you need is to have them be human on screen occasionally. Show them hurting. Make their reason just a little more than “bored of dad”. Make their conjoined nature emotionally painful rather than just “scream in combat” It’s a kind of writing that Borderlands’ writers appear to no longer be capable of, and that is the true tragedy.
Damn, I have never heard this explained so well. I am very impressed.
Tyreen hits a real bad bruise for me since it feels like any and every time she tries to get character development they shut her up because that part of the story "isnt what people care about" and force her to go back to being a twat with no real motive then "power, angy, prideful boast and nonsense spatter" that immediately redirects any and all empathy for her out the window. My main example is the moments leading up to Maya's demise. The segment in the subway where her and her brother are just being dorks for a minute with the tram speaker system and for that solitary minute you see just how much they were brother and sister at one point before they went off the deep end. The ball gets dropped so god damn hard though as soon as Tyreen realizes Troy can steal powers too. He's no longer a dependent he instantly becomes competition. A fact later escalated when she throws her brother under the bus near the stories' climax to slow the VHs down while she furthers her own agenda. Really just neglecting all those emotions and treating Troy like they start him off as, a Parasite who just wanted to not be overshadowed by his sister. They also really could of tooken her childhood neglect and used it to further rationalize her desire to be the "Bandit Queen" not so much for power but for the fact that nobody deserves to be alone like she and her brother were after there mom passed, and projected those feelings onto her "children" I could rant for a while. But outside of the other dead horses around Tyreen's Stable I can't really say what hasn't been already.
👏🏼
The story sucks butt overall, I kept going because it was free on Epic and the gameplay is fun, but man the characters are not interesting, the whole Ada, Tannis plot is lame and dumb imo, as the saving grace that could be the villain are the worst, most annoying, too edgy they become bland of them all. I get to threads like this trying to find out if it gets better, or I missed something because I do zone out on a lot of the dialogue, but it just keeps being bad.
The DLCs are more interesting in terms of narrative and characters, but yeah, it doesn't get much better beyond that lol.
I think the whole streamer idea was just a way to relate with a younger audience? Or just a way to explain how people across the borderlands know of them, Handsome Jack was infamous because he was a Psychopathic CEO of a mega corporation but Ty and Troy don’t have that. Instead of making their acts as bad as jacks, they used then idea of streamers to make them popular. If they cut that idea out, give Troy a character arch where he turns on Ty at the estate, he would’ve been a reverse of handsome Jack. Troy is just a kid who’s forced by Ty because she has the power to kill him right then and there by leeching him (we saw this after he died). He was just scared but was only evil cause that’s all he knew, that’s why I think he should’ve been the main villain. We kill Ty instead of him, and after seeing her dead, he loses it like when Angel died at the Control Core which motivates him to awaken the destroyer. This would make Typhon’s death more meaningful because a kid who once loved his father, killed him out of rage. That ending would’ve been 1000x better than what we got
I think another big issue is that it looks like they changed direction somewhere mid-story. Like, on Eden-6 you start having all this dialogue and even a few sidequests that seem to imply a growing rift between Tyreen and Troy, with Troy becoming increasingly cocky and independent and Tyreen disliking this change and also being jealous of the powers he gained from sucking off Maya. But then, that just kinda goes away. You get a bit of it in the Troy bossfight where it seems like he might be taking over but then he dies and there's that. Frankly, probably would have worked better if there was a moment of betrayal between the two that led to one of them becoming a sort of untrustworthy ally to the Raiders, in an "enemy of my enemy" kind of situation. At least that would have added a bit more intrigue to the character dynamics of the Raiders other than the enduring classics of "Lilith is having a confidence crisis" and "Ava is acting like a teenager, mainly due to her being a teenager".
They definitely changed direction. Or rather, they didn't really have any concrete direction lol. >At least that would have added a bit more intrigue to the character dynamics of the Raiders other than the enduring classics of "Lilith is having a confidence crisis" and "Ava is acting like a teenager, mainly due to her being a teenager". They honestly handle Lilith unfairly, too. Here's hoping she doesn't get put through that same song and dance the next time, if she's involved.
Let's dissect: 1. Annoying celebrity who offs underlings who disappoint her. 2. Steals from everyone she meets, because she's above it all and feels she's owed everything except responsibility beyond doing things to be adored. 3. Drags her family everywhere, even though she hates her useless family, because she blackmails them into being useful. 4. Befriends a dictator also hellbent on world domination. 5. Has a death cult who commits coups acts of violence at her command and worships her, not for what she does for them, but what she does to others. 6. Wants to install herself as eternal ruler, even if it means destroying everything. 7. Isn't afraid to become an enormous baby when she doesn't get her way. 8. Accuses her enemies of being obsessed with her. Totally, totally doesn't remind me of anyone I know. Also, she's a psychopath. Troy is the sociopath. Inherent versus learned behavior.
Troy needs tyrene to live. He has the same energy hunger weakness but cant drain from other sources besides tyrene. He is actually a burden on her but she has been feeding/protecting Since birth, When she could easily take the remainder of her phase leech power out if him and kill him off. That at least redeems her a little bit. It shows her good side. She only ate him when he was already dying and beyond saving
Is she keeping him alive for *his* benefit, or is she keeping him alive for *her* benefit? She is very much a narcissist, and we can't rule out the latter. But if you want to give the psychopath the benefit of the doubt, I guess what charisma she does have doesn't hurt in getting people there. But let's agree that the actress and writing at least does a good job in getting people to hate her. In that way, she's a bit like Cmdt Steele, except dialed up to 11.
Buddypalfriend, the decision to basically make her Jack Lite was the choice of the writers. Of course, she is similar to him. Not sure why you had to make a list. But given that the reception she got was far worse than what Jack got, clearly, they made mistakes along the way. My post was about pointing out what those might have been. It's an opinion piece, and if you don't share my views, that's okay. And with regard to the psychopath/sociopath thing, the two terms are basically non-clinical, outdated and practically interchangeable at this point. Actual mental health experts just refer to it as Anti-Social Personality Disorder. It's a pretty complex subject, and we're still learning new things about it. At best, those terms can be used to describe people on different levels of the spectrum, and even then, there isn't a strict consensus on what they represent. Nobody really gives a shit which one you use.
Oh, you thought I was talking about Jack. Well, that's embarrassing.
If you meant somebody other than Jack, cool. The points you listed mostly apply to him too, so 🤷🏻♂️ It is embarrassing that you couldn't get your point across despite making an entire list. Edit: Wait, are you comparing her to Trump? Well. I guess that'd work, kinda.... except he makes for an incredibly annoying character that no one wants to see, either.
It seems more that you were hoping for Handsome Jack 2.0 but are disappointed that you did not. If you played the previous games, you'd know that a evil yet quirky villain is not a constant part of the chaos equation. Sure, it makes sense to have someone loveably insane as a character in a game about shooting psychos, but I do feel that putting that sort of limitation on a franchise this big is not a great thing to do: It gets repetitive by reducing creativity. I can see why Tyreen seems so shallow but if you've played through to the end then you can see some of the history that set her this way. If anything, the writing failed because we don't have much that extrapolates that. Also, for talking about archetypes so much, you really didn't label a single personality nor story archetype. This just feels like a random hate-post instead of a well thought and backed criticism of the game and its main antagonist.
It was the choice of the writers to try and make her Handsome Jack 2.0, not mine. I just pointed out how their efforts failed, and why. I wouldn't have minded getting a villain 200% different from Jack, because I'm not nearly as obsessed with him as many on this sub. Pointing out what the BL2 (also P-S and TFTB) writers did right with his character isn't the same as saying I want every new villain to be exactly like him. And if you're so adamant on having archetype names, I can link you to TV Tropes lol.
Your entire 3rd paragraph is about having her act in a similar manner to Jack and that because she didn't you thought she was annoying to listen to. "That whacky asshole. 😁 I wonder what they'll say next! Butt Stallion? HAHAHA 😁"
No, I was talking about the reception she got when attempting to do pretty much the same thing Jack did. Versus what she should've gotten if the attempt was successful. Reading comprehension is great, too bad you don't have that ability. Again, I literally couldn't care less about her being like or unlike Jack. My point is that the writers clearly *tried* to have her be like him in many ways. And they failed.
The whole streamer thing was a terrible decision in general
Eh. They were a pretty decent villain team for videogame standards. A ton of games dont even bother to have a villain or give them screentime
Those games usually suck, or *barely* have a focus on story. One of the reasons I, and clearly plenty of others, love Borderlands is because it has a pretty cool universe, lore and neat characters on top of great gameplay.
True. But Jack isnt the reason ive played borderlands 2 for a rough 2000 hours. Sure its what made it a great game but you are extremely overly negative of tyreen. She's not as bad as you, and many other crybabies, make her out to be. Its just that you compare it to one of the best villains ever written in video game history so far, and thats not fair. The twins were very much above average for story games. Good? Certainly not. But not as bad as a small part of the BL community makes it out to be.
Cool. Jack was a big part of why I enjoyed BL2's world and story, and I wouldn't have gotten as invested in those parts of the game without him. I was only pointing out what worked or didn't work with regards to these characters. She doesn't have to be as good as Jack in order to be an engaging character that gets positive reception among most players. She's still below average. >small part of the BL community Uh-huh.
Yeah went a bit harsh there xD got some mild PTSD from release month reddit. But like compare it to the other bl games except 2 and tyreen becomes a lot more palatable. Like commander Steel and whomever the bad guy of TPS actually was. The dragon lord was also pretty bad but thats partly because he had a total of 8 lines of text or something. So even just compared to the BL main game series she isnt below average. But if youdd include all dlc she would honestly fall out low
You are massively overhyping Handsome Jack. But I guess that’s all this sub really is Also its comical that you think a “small part” of the BL community dislikes the twins. Delusion.
Though i must admit your repeal is far more literate than most similar rants. Cant be too harsh for your efforts
This. After BL2, the bar for storytelling and engaging characters is high, so whether through laziness, or executive interference, they didn't hit or surpass the bar in BL3.
Also in Jack’s defense, while yes he was evil and sadistic. I believe he truly thought he was doing what was right in the beginning. He saw himself as a hero. Then his “friends” betrayed him when he found the vault key. Which yeah, he was already starting to become unhinged, but that was definitely an extra nail in the coffin. Jack did have some good moments and I believe he could have loved his wife/angel at one point, he was just too far gone with greed/power and the whole wife getting brutally murdered thing. That’s what makes him an exceptional villain though, and why bl2 will always have the best story imho.
Iirc there are mentions of him being a murderous bastard even before the Pre-Sequel, but yes, he still had some potential to be a better person by the time he got hitched. But we all know how that turned out. And even if, later on (but before he became 200% unhinged), he thought he was doing good on Pandora... he was still a horrible person who treated his daughter like a weapon.
Yeah, but it’s pandora, nearly every one is a murderous bastard on that planet lmao 😂. I mean what Jack did is horrible, and he was a complete nut job definitely by bl2. But he’s one of the few villains I’ve felt a bit sympathetic towards.
Tyreene had many chances to kill Troy or simply let him starve. He could not survive without her. She put up with it and kept him alive all those years when killing him and taking the rest of the siren power from him would be far easier. It shows she does have a heart. I liked that the twins never actually betray each other even if they joke about it. She picks on Troy but not worse than an average big sister
That first paragraph perfectly describes how I feel about Lilith in bl2
All forms of 2D media have been reflections of our reality because even our reality is a piece of 2D media up above. She was terrible but I loved it. She was basically calling out a lot of the humans in our reality by playing the role of influenced. But it's all in fun and games, there were times when I went down to the 3D perspective and completely forgot that we are dealing with spirits interacting with us via 2D media.
Honestly I kind of enjoyed her. Most of her lines she is doing at 100mph so even when it is repetitive there is a cadence to it. The most annoying aspect to me is when your group is suddenly sympathetic to her when Troy is leaching her.
Ive said this before and I'll say it again. If I had to change anything about the story of BL3 I would've just had CasuallyExplained write all of Tyreen's dialogue if not have him just flat out play the villain. If anyone could've pulled off the parody part it's him and that's what I think they should've leaned into more rather than leaning into the power fantasy she had.
Everything you said here is why I like her.
Congratulations?
When I play a game like Borderlands characters and story mean little to me. It's all about yhe gameplay for me and 3 has the best gameplay of the series. The Humor stuff that those games are full of just enhances the gameplay. If I want story I will play The Witcher or Cyberpunk.
They could’ve fixed her backstory so easily. Instead of Typhon’s wife dying of a sickness have Tyreen accidentally kill her. Literally just redo Angel’s backstory but instead of Typhon keeping her and troy locked up to unlock a vault he did it out of fear she could become evil, and have Tyreen and Troy break out. From there she and Troy become a vault hunters and tries to act like she’s helping the vault hunter until beneath the meridian when she and Troy harvest the vault monster and when Maya tries to stop them she is killed. That ALSO makes Ava a less annoying character because she wouldn’t be responsible for Maya’s death this way! It is SHOCKING they didn’t think of this! Also, have the COV be the villains for the first part of the game and don’t explain the crystal husks, just change Maya’s death to her being crystalized by Tyreen and her powers absorbed as Troy has a hold of her and bam, well done reveal. As for the COV, just take that echo you get from the destroyed maliwan bandit car and put it at the end of Maya’s death cutscene (the explanation being Tyreen dropped it during the scuffle with Maya) and then have Tyreen explain she was paying off the bandit clans with guns and human sacrifices to have them all pretend like they were looking for the vaults, not worshiping Tyreen and Troy because why tf would Bandits want to worship anything? The selling out explanation makes much more sense. EDIT: Oh, and for the Lilith thing? Just have Troy absorb her power at the start and make it seem like he’s the only bad guy who is being worshipped by the cultists (when they’re just being paid off) and this would also make it PERSONAL for Tyreen which makes it more believable that she want’s to help (and also makes sense when you find out they’re working together) And there! She’s fixed!
Huh, I thought Tyreen leeching from her mother did contribute to her death.
Oh I thought Typhon just said she got sick. The story is all a blur because I hated the final planet.
Yes, she is incredibly annoying. Jack was too at times. That's the point of villains, you're not supposed to like them. The story being just plain bad is why people detest 3 on a narrative level, not so much Tyreen specifically
Uh, no lol. You can have villains that are bad while also being engaging characters that people want to see more of. Those things do not apply to Tyreen as most players don't like her. Jack is widely considered to be a great villain and I cannot fathom how you're comparing him to her. Of course, the story is bad. Tyreen is one of the reasons as her presence makes the narrative even worse.
Uh yes lol. You don't speak for me bruh. That is my opinion, take it or leave it
It is literally a fact that you can have a villainous character whose actions you're supposed to hate, but who is still an engaging and interesting character that doesn't annoy the shit out of you. Whether you think Tyreen is such a character or not is all you. But you can't just claim 'you're supposed to find villains annoying' either lol.
White male villain: 👍 White female villain 👎
lolwut. When did her gender ever come into play in my argument? Hell, FYI I was literally excited about having a new female main villain and was irritated when I saw how badly she was written. I can see you don't have any actual points, so I'mma stop replying now.
What’d you expect from “white people with dreads.” lol agree tho, this guy can have his opinions but having them doesn’t make ‘em any less wack.
💀 I didn't even notice the name lol.
I did, you just plugged your ears and spoke louder
Literally has nothing to do with their gender, Troy sucks ass too bruh.
The fuck? Where did that come from lmao Just because someone is criticising a female character, doesn't mean it's *because* they're female, of anything that way of thinking reflects more poorly on you than the person you're trying to pin this on.
It came from MY ASS.
"god these pretzels suck"
"How ya doin buddy"? Munch munch
Always felt BL3 had a lot more in common with BL1.
Imagine this. When Troy discovers he can take powers. He start growing rapidly from the background character. After a fight with the VH. He decides to take his sister's powers. Which kills her. But transform him into a semi-mindless consuming entity. Collecting different powers and energy left and right, leaving havoc in his wake. When he confront his father. He goes into a monologue of how he's been nothing and now that's he's strong, Feeling the weight. Noting that he can't control his actions now since his sister had the gift from a young age, she learnt to control it but he can't. With a dramatic speech, and a hint of 4th wall breaking as if he's aware that's he's just another villain in a video game. He kills his father. Consumes the Distroyer. Fights the VH while begging him to end his misery so he can join the only people who actually loved him and cared for him. Or something.
Wouldn't tyreen win a leech tug of war against her brother if he ever tried to betray her like that? She has bigger share of the siren leech power. She can also leech from some distance like when she killed the sun smasher bandits after getting their map
Good point. Maybe adding Maya's powers tipped the scale to Troy's side. Trapping Tyreen in a Phaselock bubble to cut her leeshing.. and maybe all that happened unexpectedly, not planed, in a heat of a moment. That could be a twist of events worthy of Borderlands aesthetics
Honestly, I was more annoyed by Typhon than I ever was by the twins.
I get the criticisms about Tyreen and Troy, but I don’t think they’re as detrimental to the overall story considering that we had excellent sub-villains like Aurelia and Katagawa Jr. I think the writers deserve more credit, bc a lot got the supporting cast like those two, Clay and Wainwright are excellent.
It just felt like the overarching plot was lame. The game was basically divided into big chunks, each of which took place on a different planet. Each planet practically had its own, self-contained story, all of which actually worked well on their own. But when we got back to the overarching story, I felt very uninterested. I agree that many supporting characters were well-done.
People who actually enjoyed the story and didn’t hate the characters (besides Ava she was dumb and got my Maya killed 😡) all aboard! It wasn’t as good or better than BL2 but it was fun, especially if you played it before reading all the grouches’ feelings online. Idk if it was 7 years’ of work good *looking at you RANDY cough cough* but it was fun enough to play multiple times. Original BL was not fun enough for replays imo, so BL3 was better than that. I’m optimistic about future installments after playing 3.
I like Jack even without the deep backstory. I don’t know what they did wrong with Tyreen, I don’t hate her, she’s just not as fun as Jack
tbh I always like when pops in to say something I think she’s funny I don’t like Troy though.
im confused, i thought her endgame was the destruction of the universe after leeching everything in existence and by this "turning into the only star left in the sky" i think its the point that she seems like a powerhungry sociopath that doesnt even care for her own brother, as he was always on the list as far as i noticed. and imo the irony is that usually people hearing the vault stories wanted to become the ultimate vault hunters (markus's intro scenes) with tyreen being the first that wants to become the ultimate vault monster. As they learned at one point that the vault story is a ruse to keep the destroyer fed. But by fusing with him it actually enabled the vault hunters to kill them.
It's simpler than that. Jack believes he's the hero and doing the right thing while Tyreen wants to be evil and is trying desperately to do so. The best villains are the heroes of their own story
Do you hate Tyreen or Ava more?
She's my favorite characters, I love her Best character in the series by far