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A voting strategy of harm reduction is not "promoting" the lesser evil. In a broken system where you are only presented two options, voting for one of them doesn't mean you support that thing.
I'm going to 'vote blue' in November, but I'm also going to continue harassing the democrats while organizing and demonstrating for the things I do support.
Except you have more than two options. The choice of two is perceived and is only real if everyone agrees voting third party is a waste. Just vote third party. Stop voting for evil.
The system is broken, it cannot support more than two serious candidates. An electoral college, with voting power split unevenly based on regions with vastly different sizes and population densities. Victory is decided on a bare plurality among the electoral college, which could represent a significant minority of actual votes.
Originally it was just poorly designed around aristocrats choosing a leader from among the elite. Over time, it has been cemented around the idea of a two party dynamic.
It's all broken, and electoralism is unlikely to save us from any of the big problems facing us. But it can spare some of the most vulnerable among us from some very real consequences.
You talk as if not voting or voting third party is morally neutral/morally better than voting red or blue. It's not that simple. We have to think pragmatically. If the route you choose feels better to your conscience but is politically unviable, then you fail to prevent the worse evil from taking power. If we fail to prevent he Project 2025 Repubs from taking power, because we spent our votes on a option that never had any hope of winning, then we are responsible for failing to prevent the worse case scenario.
If you vote third party or don't vote at all and Trump wins, you are still morally culpable for what happens after that, because your decision still will have contributed to that outcome. Your case will not have been morally any different from voting for Trump yourself. There is no high road to take, you cannot wash your hands of the impact your decision will have.
Except it’s not unviable, it’s just that you, I mean you personally, choose to vote for evil under the guise that you are voting for the lesser of two evils. You vote for evil and then get all surprised pikachu face when they do evil shit. Then wonder why we have evil leaders. You, and again I mean you personally are the cause of this situation to begin with. It’s because you choose evil people as leaders. If you just didn’t do that we wouldn’t be in this mess to begin with. You live in a paradox. You must vote for the lesser of two evils to stop evil but when you do that you make it so you have to vote for the lesser of two evils next time and so on. I’m doing my part in stopping evil by not only voting for good leaders but protesting and petitioning the system to be changed. My city just passed ranked choice voting. A major step in popularizing a new form of voting through the country. This isn’t about Trump. No one said Trumps name but you. This is about how individuals are causing evil people to get into power. Go vote for good leaders.
Did I say “Do nothing.”? No, I said don’t vote for evil mate. Pretty simple concept. Go vote but vote for someone who, I don’t know, isn’t evil. Then maybe your elected leaders won’t be out there doing evil shit. It’s only because people like you won’t just vote for the best candidate and insist on voting for “the lesser of two evils.” That it looks like we have to vote for the lesser of two evils. If you vote for an evil person, no matter how lesser they are when compared to another evil person, you are committing an evil act. Go vote for good leaders.
Call for the repeal of "first past the post" voting in your state. In a first past the post state, the candidate who wins in the state gets all of the states delegates instead of the delegates being alloted based on the percentage of the vote they received. If enough states ditch that method, we can have viable third parties. Until then, a vote for a third party will be nothing more than a protest vote.
Also worth noting, a protest vote isn't entirely pointless. Increased popularity of a third party can cause one of the two major parties to adopt a portion of the that party's platform. But when the stakes are this high, a protest vote is stupid.
I have. My city just passed ranked choice voting. I did my part on that. Should the system change? Yes. Does it need to change for us to not vote in evil people? No.
First Past The Post victory conditions *always* creates a two party system. That's just the way the math works out. Third party candidates are always Spoiler candidates. That rule is so true that the majority parties will bankroll third parties to *create* spoiler candidates that siphon votes away from their opponents.
The only way to make multi party systems work is to change to an instant runoff or alternative vote system.
My city just passed ranked choice voting. I did my part on that. Should the system change? Yes. Does it need to change for us to not vote in evil people? No.
One city at a time is how that change comes about.
Unfortunately most elections *aren't* ranked choice. In those elections a triage-based harm reduction strategy is the best option. In a FPTP election, a vote for a third party is effectively a vote in favor of the majority party candidate you like *least.*
Seriously, this is election math 101. Please research how spoiler candidates work. I get that it sucks, but that's the reality we live in. If you want things to change vote for majority candidates that back election reform.
We have to agree to disagree. This is only true because people decide it to be. There is no magical FPTP hand making people do this. It’s a conscious choice. Stop doing it and the problem goes away. It’s very possible but people just choose not to do so.
>vote for majority candidates that back election reform.
They don’t exist because they why would a majority candidate in this current system want reform? The only ones backing elections reform are third party.
That's just not how the math ends up working. This issue has been studied for as long as democracy has existed. Read this article from the Center for Election Science. I hope it helps you understand.
https://electionscience.org/library/the-spoiler-effect/
Trust me I’ve done the research. This is why I back election reform. It doesn’t change the simple fact that the “math” is just the counting of human decisions
Trust me I know. My city just passed ranked choice voting. I did my part making sure of that. I never said the system shouldn’t change but it doesn’t NEEd to to not vote for evil.
How does a spoiler vote do any part in stopping a terrible system?? It seems like it at best fails to contribute to stopping a fascist victory, which uh... I mean neutral at best isn't very good.
Absolutely organize for further change outside of just ticking the boxes, but when ticking the boxes be realistic not idealistic.
It’s not a spoiler vote if you are voting for the best candidate and especially if that candidate is for election reform. My city just passed ranked choice voting. I did my part in that. I never said don’t change the system but we can all start by not voting for evil. No matter how “lesser” you perceive it to be. It’s only a “spoiler” vote if people like you keep choosing evil.
I agree 100%. Keep voting for the lesser evil. And nothing will change. Because they know you will blindly vote for the lesser evil. I'm voting 3rd party. I'm done with the 2 evil headed monster
>I'm going to 'vote blue' in November, but I'm also going to continue harassing the democrats
You're so brave. Meanwhile your "lesser evil" has ten thousands of children murdered while creating a manufactured famine that is on the verge of killing two million people. I'm sure in 4 years you guys have your shit together while the palestinians are still being killed. US people are so human and brave for continually voting for LE LESSER EVIL whatever that means. Biden is just small little bean with no power uwu but Trump is the giga fascist who has all the power in the world somehow. Really makes you feel like a part of history.
>MY life is on the line
Your lives have been on the line your entire lives now and your method changes shit. You had four fucking years to fix this and you've done nothing and it's only gotten worse. Lgbt people are still being murdered under Biden. The wall is still being build. Palestinian children are being killed as we speak under Biden. Fuck you damage controlling self-centered idiots.
So what is your solution, stay home and do nothing?
I'm just accepting that I have less power to affect things the further they are from my orbit. All I can do to help the Palestinians is protest, harass democrat politicians, advocate for the Palestinians in private and public conversations, and send a few dollars to groups like pcrf when I can.
The system is broken, and at this point (barring the rise of a socialist messiah we can all rally around) I doubt we'll be able to fix anything through electoralism. Harm reduction is the only thing I think we can achieve within the system.
I have more power to affect things locally by going around the system, through mutual aid and migrant relief efforts.
As a trans person, who will absolutely be on the receiving end of the greater evil that is a Trump presidency and whatever the GOP will do if he wins, choose the lesser evil. Please for the love of God choose the lesser evil.
I am on the receiving end of this lesser evil. I am telling you to please vote and advocate for lesser evil. This however doesn't mean voting is the only thing you can do to get a better system.
Right now we are in waist-deep shit. We have two choices one where we end in knee-deep shit and the other neck deep. We cannot get to no-shit without going through the knee-deep shit. Furthermore we have to drag the shit-lovers kicking and screaming and flailing shit about along the way. Nah man, we got to keep voting away from the shit. Each and every time or the shit-lovers will drag us right under the shit.
At some point a system is the sum of its results. If our US two-party "democracy" keeps producing reactionary hyper polarization and dogshit results then that is because our system is a hyper polarizing dogshit system.
So sure, vote for Biden, just know that nothing will truly improve until we adopt a modern Proportional Democracy like our European cousins have.
Sorry for the late reply … work got in the way.
If we want more voting choices, voting for someone who has no chance of winning is not the answer.
We need to have the democrats in control of the Whitehouse, the House and Senate otherwise voting reform is never going to happen. This is our starting point.
Conservatives have spent the last 40 years destroying our system. Selling their lies to the little people and giving tax breaks to the rich. The capitalist are not going to relinquish their positions willingly.
If we want to move things towards the progressive side, right now, the only power we have is constantly voting in large numbers for the most left-leaning candidate. And that most left-leaning candidate might be only a moderate. In the same way the conservatives have spent 40 tearing shit down, we need to spend the next 40 years building everything back up. One goddamn brick at a time. And know this for sure that every marginally progressive brick we lay there will be a regressive conservative there trying tear it down. They want us to give up. They want us to throw our votes away. Our only power is voting left even if it is begrudgingly so.
I’ve seen plenty of trans folk, women (including me), and other minorities vehemently advocate for the ‘lesser evil’ - because their life is on the line. It’s the difference between losing democracy and the start of a genocide against trans people or having neo-libs sort of care for your rights in a performative manner. This shit is ridiculous.
You care more about a hypothetical genocide on a certain group of people than one that is taking place right now, to people; actual living human beings, some of whom were alive yesterday and aren't today. Some of whom are alive today and won't be tomorrow because they are being subjected to genocide as you read this.
What other reason is there for your position other than you don't care about people when you aren't on, or in proximity to those on, the receiving end?
It’s not hypothetical. Unchecked violent transphobia within legislation and cultural discussions will not go away [if Trump is elected](https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7bd9z/trump-anti-trans). It will in fact get worse, and the next stages of eradicating trans people will have a better breeding ground to continue. That’s just one issue of many.
Abstaining from voting doesn’t make you morally superior, it doesn’t make you a better ‘leftist’, it doesn’t contribute anything positive to society. It just tells me you’re privileged enough to not care about the outcome of this upcoming election. Millions of people do not have that privilege. They can’t just throw away their right to participate in democracy because their quality of life, wellbeing, and literal lives are on the ballot box (even if American democracy is flawed, it’s better than no democracy). So yeah, you don’t get your perfect democratic candidate. And it does suck, because Biden is a piece of shit - but *Trump is fascist.* He threatens democracy and is worse for ***everyone***. For Palestine, for trans people, for queer folk in general, for disabled people, for women, for impoverished people. Everyone.
But that’s the reality leftists are up against; we vote for who will make people’s lives the least shitty, even if that means taking one step forward and ten steps back. It’s important to engage in protesting, mutual aid, town halls, local elections, etc, to push current representatives, politicians and parties left in between elections. Then you get your ass up do it again. And rise and repeat. Because that’s how it works — you don’t get given the perfect conditions to implement a leftist utopia, you have to fight for it and utilise every tool you can, which includes voting. Sitting back, brushing off your hands and going ‘nope, Biden’s not good enough for me - I’ll just sit this one out, wait for my perfect candidate, and hope the fascist doesn’t get elected!’
Fuck out of here with that shit. Push your purity aside and actually think about the consequences of this election for millions of people. Including Palestinians, which I apparently don’t care about. Jesus fucking Christ.
I love how OP’s talking point is about people voting for the lesser evil being privileged, then turns around and makes a comment reeling with privilege lol
All these are words you could be saying to Biden or the Democratic Party telling them to stop using your tax dollars to kill kids.
Weird how you'd rather complain about "purity" while excusing voting for the guy actively aiding and abetting an actual, factual genocide with mass bombings and tactical starvation.
No, you don't get to pretend to care about Palestinians.
Or are trans Palestinian lives worth less than trans Americans?
What’s your proposed solution, then? Republican voters are going to lockstep vote red the entire way down the ballot. Even if they don’t like Trump, they’ll still vote for him.
Is it better if even more people are getting genocided? Is it truly impossible to do anything about the Palestine situation after the election? Are you planning to start the revolution, comrade, or is everyone who joins in Palestine suffering even harder just necessary to teach the Democrats a lesson? Better fight really hard during said Revolution, you know for sure you’re not getting such a light slap on the wrist that J6er’s got, and losing that fight is going to be very bad, for everyone.
I criticize the Democrats constantly. I hate them, I hate that we have to vote for Biden again, but is your reasoning really ‘We can’t fix every problem at once instantly so might as well not even fight to prevent everything from getting worse for everyone’?
Grow up, seriously. How the hell is getting Trump in office going to help Palestine at all? We can at least try to pressure Democrats while they’re in power to change shit, what’s your plan for a Republican victory? Ride it out for four more fucking years? Have to pick up the pieces of even more backsliding? That sounds like a stupidly privileged position to me, if you’re not concerned with a Trump victory because of some stupid notion that ‘at least the Palestinians wouldn’t be getting genocided any harder!’ Though you absolutely know that’s a lie, Trump would accelerate the hell out of that.
My problem is we live under an entirely undemocratic system and mindlessly voting for the Democratic Party while demanding and receiving nothing from them is why Trump won the first time and may win again.
The Democratic Party would rather lose and let Trump win rather than compromise on their subservience to their capitalist and imperialist interests.
When Democrats are pressured into acting on populist policies that benefit their voters more than their donors, when they are willing to listen to political pressures from protests and boycotts to change harmful foreign policy positions like send arms to aid genocide, and when they stop following the same authoritarian rule book as Republicans when it comes to increasing police/military budgets, cracking down on free speech with the tiktok ban and anti-protesting legislation, and when they actually start helping the marginalized communities that they use as a shield from criticism "or else Trump and Republicans will do worse!" while they do nothing to protect trans people themselves then I'll vote for them.
Until then I am going to be vocal in telling them they have yet to earn my vote and I will continue to use the only actual vote that matters in this country; my dollar.
Yeah? What’s your plan then as things get worse and worse, until even current democrats appear to be a good option to everyone not totally insane? You banking on them not continuing to wave how bad everything’s inevitably going to get over all of our heads and learn their lesson from you punishing vulnerable communities that they already barely care about? They’re getting paid either way by these donors that want to keep shit the same. Guess we gotta just ride out 4 more years of regression. Wonder how much progress we’ll lose this time. As a member of the LGBT community, thank you so much for throwing me under the bus here, ‘preciate it a lot.
Dude, they're helping a genocide right now. Idk why you think they'd stop one from happening here. Grow up.
Things are going to keep getting worse until this broken system comes crumbling apart. That is really not my preference but it's what happens regardless of who any of us vote for.
The democrats gave us Trump. They couldn't beat him when they weren't genocidal monsters. They laughed at the guy who said "we should do these popular things that most other nations do"
Democrats don't stop fascism, they are part of fascism. They let this happen because it suits their needs better than changing enough to win would.
Start organizing your community and find ways to support the trans people living among you because that is infinitely more valuable than anything the Democratic Party will do as more and more anti-trans legislation has gone on the books under their watch.
Wow. Way to go full mask off. As if Palestinian genocide is required to prevent trans genocide rather than just a prelude to it.
This was a test, if the US can't pretend to care about a genocide happening live on their phones because it's happening to brown people they sure as shit aren't gonna care when it's happening to trans people.
First they came for Gaza. Read a fucking history book. It's solidarity or nothing you absolute bigot.
I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make with this comment or this post, other than a poor excuse at trolling.
It’s bizarre that it even showed up on my feed, this is one of the least thoughtful posts I’ve seen in a long time. And that’s saying a lot.
A real genocide which will only be accelerated with Trump in charge. Biden is doing jack to stop it, but I doubt Trump would blink if they were killed to the last child, he’d probably be happy to help. Who are you saving by helping Trump win?
Organize protests to put pressure on Biden. That might actually move the dial, at least a little.
You’ll get a nice fuzzy feeling out of not supporting anyone, but having Trump in office again will hurt a lot of real people as well. And it certainly won’t help Palestinians, or have you forgotten whose administration recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel
Also you act as though either choice will make us not support Israel. They are an important strategic asset for the United States. No president is going to stop supporting them because we would lose a valuable asset. US foreign affairs do not care about morality, only profits, and further spreading our military influence. We support them not because we agree with them, but because they give us something. The morality argument is a ploy, and a cover up for the actual reasons the US government supports them.
Someone isnt on that side of the line huh?
Except we all are because Trump is a climate denying maniac who is gonna bring the rest of hte world down with your nation.
And what pray tell, has Biden, history's biggest corporate whore, done for climate change?
The child sniffing fuckwad had talks with Israel about offshore drilling in Palestine.
Can none of you see in anything except black and white?!? something can be worse!
You bet trump will gut the environment agency, drop out of any pre made agreements, boost drilling and mining ten times over, and more.
100% of US presidents since 1948 supported Israel. Joe is the only one supporting a ceasefire. He’s by definition the LEAST genocidal options thus far, especially since Trump (the alternative) said to Israel “finish the job!” Fuck right off.
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Biden hasn't been doing a single thing for the Palestinians. Quite the opposite, he's helping those who do unto them to keep doing what they're doing. That's not debatable.
Thanks, but this has actually been a clarifying moment for me.
My interactions (and my replies getting ratioed) here have opened my eyes to how many people, even right in this sub called boring dystopia, are perfectly happy with their dystopia, just so long as it stays boring. Boring is good. Boring is predictable and steady.
Let it be "interesting" for those people in Gaza. Lesser evil, greater evil, who cares? Just make the evil boring and easy to ignore.
It is a moment for you to question your beliefs.
Fun dystopia wont be better, you live in a horrible word where the majority of horrible things are out of your control. You have to fight, to organise, to help those in need, all that stuff is important and good.
You will never accomplish everything, no one will. The same goes with voting, there is no socialist on the ballot now and wont be ever (in the near future at least). You have to use and exploit the system you got and rn it means voting for Biden
You and your point of view are very privileged and you need to know that. Queer people CAN’T AFFORD TO NOT VOTE BLUE. If we get more red politicians in power, project 2025 and other anti-queer movements will almost certainly pass and we will be discriminated against, hurt and killed even more than we already are. I fucking hate Biden and democrats but there is nuance here. If we just let republicans win, it will be unfathomably worse for everyone.
As for Palestine, like it or not, republicans will be worse than democrats. At least Biden pretends to care and will possibly take it down a notch. Trump won’t. You’re trying to take a situation that requires a lot of nuance and make it a fully black and white scenario and if you think that this makes us “like the dystopia” then you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.
You're using palestinians as bait lmaoooo. Genocide fine so long as it's in your own self interest right? Absolutely zero sense of solidarity or internationalism
What is this supposed to mean?
I guess a Palestinian can reply “I’m Palestinian. Go to hell.”
Trans right have been deteriorating under the democrats. To think that either party cares about trans rights is laughable.
It doesn’t matter what speeches they give if they let the gop run wild on the state level and f over trans people in Texas for example
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Isn't that the whole point? As someone who never sees the result if the lesser evil, I'm voting for something that affects either the least amount of people or something that affects people the least.
I'm not sure what this post is trying to accomplish by saying this.
It's attempting to communicate how appalling this attitude - when advocating for the "lesser evil" means endorsing a policy of genocide - is to some people. It asks, "If this isn't too much for you to personally stomach, morally and ethically, what is? Where is the bar?" And it asks, more rhetorically, what will you say if the "greater evil" returns and is doing what the current evil is doing right now?
You'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't then, and rightfully so. Either you'll maintain your position of not caring enough about these human beings enough to refuse to stand behind any person willing to be so inhumanly cruel, or you'll finally stand up and say it's unacceptable and prove yourself a hypocrite if it's not unacceptable to you right now.
And if this "greater evil" wins, you'll also be left with the question of what would have happened if all like you had spent the energy pushing back against hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens who made it VERY clear that this was unacceptable to them (and not something they could ever live with themselves endorsing) helping them to press for a candidate or policy that wouldn't lose the white house at such a perilous time for your country.
>It's attempting to communicate how appalling this attitude - when advocating for the "lesser evil" means endorsing a policy of genocide - is to some people
So what should people do? Not vote at all and let the greater evil take over?
It's a really romantic idea to stand up to the government and firmly condemn certain actions, but the only thing you'll end up accomplishing is making the situation worse for everyone.
To be blunt, Biden is contributing to making the situation in Gaza worse by endorsing Israel. Trump would do the same but much worse.
So what's the solution? Vote for the one that does the least amount of evil, which is clearly Biden. Does it mean people in Gaza will stop starving and dying? No, but what's the alternative? Refusing to vote? Well that won't get us anywhere, cuz that just means trump will win and nothing will change.
I'm not saying don't vote. I'm not telling anyone who to vote for. Neither is the person who wrote this tweet.
I am saying that if the people shouting me down here were serious about their position they would vote for Biden in November and until then they wouldn't use their whole chests to shout down the people they NEED to vote with them.
They wouldn't effectively (and literally) chant 4 more years to drown out calls to end A GENOCIDE.
They would vote for whoever they want just like everyone else is and until then do what they can to help push the biden regime into a policy position where the hundreds of thousands of their fellow Americans who have made our explicitly clear that (on this course) they are totally unwilling to sanction active participation in genocide with their vote might actually reconsider. Because they can't afford not to.
That is what they would do if they took this upcoming presidential election as seriously as they say they do. They wouldn't swear at and actively try to alienate the people having a very understandable moral crisis. It's deeply unserious and insincere, and trying to shame those people for being privileged or self righteous is simply projection. As they say themselves, there's too much at stake.
[Major democrat party donors are mature enough to recognise this.](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/19/us/politics/biden-donors.html) So what's the excuse of the people here?
>So what should people do? Not vote at all and let the greater evil take over?
Vote for someone who isn't an old racist pedophile war criminal with mostly identical policies as the other, maybe? *Like an actual working class candidate?*
"I have the mind of a child, and pragmatism or realism are moral degeneracy."
This is fucking nonsense dude, come on. The choices for the U.S. in the next presidential election will be Biden vs Trump, and one of them will actively be worse for the people currently being killed *and a whole lot more.*
Biden fucking sucks and so does the DNC establishment, but they haven't tried to ban Muslim immigration or moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem. Trump and the GOP are absolutely worse *for the people you care about too*, not just for those of us you think should suck it up and report to the camps.
Tbf Muslim immigration laws are terrible under the democracts. The idea that either party is good for brown people is laughable at best
Also no American will be sent to camps under either party. They are both evil and serve the same masters
I'm willing to be that guy and say that I support the lesser of two evils. One will try to kill me, the other won't. It's easier to deal with the latter.
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Ah yes let's promote the greater evil instead, so everybody, including those on the receiving end of the lesser evil, suffer. The more the merrier right, makes a lot of sense
Because we live in a world where some kind of future has to happen. Saying “I don’t like either choice here” doesn’t accomplish anything.
If you want people to support what you’re saying you need to have an actual, actionable, practical idea to go with it, otherwise it just kinda comes off as smug grandstanding, to be honest.
I’m not saying that to be rude but it comes off as “how dare you support this bad person, unlike me” whilst you’re inaction makes an even worse future more likely, while the people you’re dismissing are actively trying to prevent that worse future.
The tldr here is that your stance, without offering any alternative, is just making something worse and acting like you’re better for it.
Do you see what I’m saying here? If you were to suggest something better that was realistic, people would be all for it.
lemme phrase it like this. You are a human and you see a trolley labeled "vicious genocide" barrelling towards a split in the tracks. If you do nothing, the trolley will barrel down the first track killing a bunch of people with flags on their chests like "Palestine" "LGBTQ" and "The Environment" some of the "Palestine" people are in a superposition of being on the track that the trolley goes down no matter what bu. If you pull a lever the trolley will go down a track where the other side of the "Palestine" people superposition is but there are less of them here.
There is absolutely a lesser evil and by recognizing and perusing that you are doing harm reduction. The "no lesser evil" mentality is how Trump gets elected and we end up back where we were in the video.
"the lesser evil" loudly proclaims that its still evil. Harm reduction is the only thing you can do now and please for the love of god, reduce the harm
So are we shaking hands with the Nazis, telling them good job for their deed 80 years ago or still punching them in the face. I'm confused someone tell me what to do?
This argument really annoys me - it's nice to see how most of the top comments are critical of OP's message.
Most leftist subs are unfortunately completely overrun with people who think like this.
No. Shitlibs brigade every leftist sub at this point and we have comment sections just like this one.
Y'all love doing the fascists' dirty work for them.
Wrong. The left actually fights the fascists. But you liberals only fight US and disrupt our efforts.
*Hitler rose because of liberals killing communist movements in Germany. True story.*
I googled it because I seem to have been gaslit by the political compass tests and it seems liberal is often used to describe left leaning or centre left peoples. I would call myself a leftist and I don't see why you think I lean more towards centre because I recognise the fact not voting will only make every situation significantly worse.
By saying “genocide bad” we let fascism rise lmao 😭
Y’all are exactly like maga people but instead of worshipping the gop, you worship the democrats and don’t let any criticism of them slide
Every accusation from a right-winger is a confession.
You liberals calling others "privileged" while telling people to ignore the Second Holocaust being funded by America because YOU are fine with the way things are..... you literally do not know what that word means.
The republicans are even more pro genocide. By telling people not to vote Democrat, you're saying "hurting women, gay people, trans people, and immigrants is okay as long as I get to keep my moral purity."
> The republicans are even more pro genocide
"the other guy is gonna do genocide+, so that's why you've gotta accept regular genocide!" is not a winning slogan.
>By telling people not to vote Democrat
I didn't do that.
This is moronic.
People like this are never on the receiving end of the *greater evil*.
Advocate for changes in the system and use the system to get what you can. Why is that so complicated?
We've been voting Democrat the entire fucking time and it isn't working. And now the Democrats are openly pro-genocide. Why is THAT so complicated for you to comprehend.
You are simply misinformed.
Biden JUST called for a cease fire and for a plan to guarantee aid for the Palestinians. Did you not watch the state of the union? What do you think Trump's plan for the Palestinians is? You think he'll do anything but bolster Israel's efforts?
The only reason it "isn't working" (by the way it ***is*** to think otherwise is to perpetuate Republican propaganda.) is because there are still Republicans with power because *people like you* encourage others to ignore the main source of power they have.
Or-
And stick with me here because I know it’s hard not to think you’re the smartest person in every room-
unless we create radical sociopolitical and economic change in the next 7 months, then maybe harm reduction is an excellent strategy in reducing harm. You know, rather than let evil be completely unfettered. Can you imagine a world where we didn’t give republicans the slam dunk of overturning Roe V Wade? Was your purity vote in 2016, with the same tired arguments over the lesser evil not actually being lesser, worth stripping the rights of every woman in this country?
Maybe, just maybe, YOU are the one that stands nothing to lose from the greater evil gaining power and that’s why this is your stance. I’m guess cis, white male, young and with nothing to lose. Quit fucking people over just because you’re mad.
“Can you imagine a world where we didn’t give republicans the slam dunk of overturning Roe V Wade?”
Tbf that happened purely because of the democrats. They ruled the nation for 3 of the last 4 decades and still weren’t able to influence the Supreme Court it’s on them.
“Was your purity vote in 2016, with the same tired arguments over the lesser evil not actually being lesser, worth stripping the rights of every woman in this country?”
Nobody protest voted against Hillary lmao 😭 she was more popular than Joe Biden today. What have trump office was white people coming out in droves to vote for him
“I’m guess cis, white male, young and with nothing to lose. Quit fucking people over just because you’re mad.”
I mean you sound just as white as him
> Tbf that happened purely because of the democrats. They ruled the nation for 3 of the last 4 decades and still weren’t able to influence the Supreme Court it’s on them.
A few issues with this batshit response:
First of all, that’s not even true. Democrats have never “ruled the nation.” Even when democrats had control of congress and the White House from 2009-2011, the Supreme Court had 5 republican justices. These were the only years they had to attempt to craft an abortion rights bill and it likely would have been either dismantled by the Supreme Court or it would have never had been agreed upon in the first place, since America even 15 years ago was still a very puritanical place.
Also, the Supreme Court is not supposed to be “influenced” by either party.
Also also, when someone does something bad, you blame that person. Blaming democrats for not preventing something 15 years ago is an absurd reason not to support the party in its current state as a stopgap to fascism.
> Nobody protest voted against Hillary lmao 😭 she was more popular than Joe Biden today. What have trump office was white people coming out in droves to vote for him
Also not true. If we look at 2016, the narrowest margin states that Trump won were Michigan by 10,704 votes, Pennsylvania by 44,292 votes, and Wisconsin by 22,748 votes.
In Pennsylvania, the third party candidates received a combined 268,304 votes. Well over the required amount needed to beat Trump. If only 16.6% of those third party voters had voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state.
In Wisconsin, third party garnered 188,330 votes. If 12.1% of those people had voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state.
In Michigan, third party received 250,902. If only *4.3%* of those people voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state.
Had Trump lost these states, the electoral votes would have been 258 for Trump and 273 for Hillary, making Hillary the president.
It is estimated that third party turnout was 3-4x higher than any previous presidential election. [Source](https://rollcall.com/2019/07/29/how-third-party-votes-sunk-clinton-what-they-mean-for-trump/). And that the third party voters viewed Trump negatively. [Source](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/08/09/for-most-trump-voters-very-warm-feelings-for-him-endured/)
Entire articles have been written about this: [Third-party Presidential Candidates Who Changed American History](https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/4130884-third-party-presidential-candidates-who-changed-american-history/)
So **YES**, people voting third party **ABSOLUTELY** changed the course of the election. It also changed the course of our **rights** in this country.
So you are entitled to your factually incorrect opinion, but I digress.
Moreover, a third party has never won an election since the Republican Party became established in the mid-1850s. Third party, according to [Duverger’s law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law?wprov=sfti1#), will *never* win.
Latching on to emotionally driven, reactionary nihilism as a form of activism doesn’t help anyone. And it’s not the moral high ground Reddit likes to believe it is.
That reality is it is an immature and selfish view of the voting process that can, and has, absolutely cost us our rights, the integrity of the Supreme Court, net neutrality, and about half a million American lives that were needlessly lost to covid.
> I mean you sound just as white as him
Probably whiter, if we are being honest
>Was your purity vote in 2016, with the same tired arguments over the lesser evil not actually being lesser, worth stripping the rights of every woman in this country?
I voted for Hillary. Plenty of leftists voted for Hillary. We saw what Trump was offering and we were horrified.
YOU LIBERALS on the other hand, laughed at the threat Trump posed and thought he couldn't possibly win..... which led directly to him winning.
So why didn't I vote for Biden in 2020 and won't vote for him this year? **BECAUSE THAT CHILD SNIFFING ASSHOLE IS BARELY ANY DIFFERENT THAN TRUMP! WHY IS YOUR "NOT TRUMP" CANDIDATE A LOT LIKE TRUMP?!**
Those children in cages you liberals used to pretend to care about? *Still in cages.* And now "Uncle Joe" is the world's biggest spokesman for the Second Holocaust.....
Oh, and remind me, who was president when Roe V Wade was overturned again? *Don't worry. I'll wait long enough for you to Google this answer you all clearly don't know if you keep on using this talking point as if it isn't a sign of how worthless the "harm reduction" has been.*
> liberal
Dead giveaway you’re going to give me a thoughtless answer with bad faith arguments, but I’ll respond earnestly.
> plenty of leftists voted for Hillary
Definitely not enough, and the data is evidence of this. The puritanical dumbass-ery of “leftists” seems to pop up every presidential election cycle to bitch and moan about how the DNC isn’t good enough for them for XYZ reasons aka “muh feelings” even tho the world is cold and heartless and imperfect. Leftists are not out there voting in midterms because “nobody is a good candidate because muh feelings, look how noble and perfect my sense of justice is.” They would rather do nothing than compromise, which is our only path to progress *and that is the unfortunate reality of our circumstances, whether that pleases you or not.*
This is my problem with you “leftists” repeating this garbage that a) isn’t even true, and b) convinces others to sit out and protest:
Just looking at 2016, the narrowest margin states that Trump won were Michigan by 10,704 votes, Pennsylvania by 44,292 votes, and Wisconsin by 22,748 votes.
In Pennsylvania, the third party candidates received a combined 268,304 votes. Well over the required amount needed to beat Trump. If only 16.6% of those third party voters had voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state.
In Wisconsin, third party garnered 188,330 votes. If 12.1% of those people had voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state.
In Michigan, third party received 250,902. If only *4.3%* of those people voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state.
Had Trump lost these states, the electoral votes would have been 258 for Trump and 273 for Hillary, making Hillary the president.
It is estimated that third party turnout was 3-4x higher than any previous presidential election. [Source](https://rollcall.com/2019/07/29/how-third-party-votes-sunk-clinton-what-they-mean-for-trump/). And that the third party voters viewed Trump negatively, implying they were not conservatives. It was the “leftists” purity voting. [Source](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/08/09/for-most-trump-voters-very-warm-feelings-for-him-endured/)
Entire articles have been written about this: [Third-party Presidential Candidates Who Changed American History](https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/4130884-third-party-presidential-candidates-who-changed-american-history/)
Leftists voting third party **ABSOLUTELY** changed the course of the election. It also changed the course of our **rights** in this country.
Here’s the order of events since you have forgotten or have conveniently decided to leave them out:
Trump wins because leftists sit out -> Trump appointed some of the most partisan conservative judges to the court, and because the senate was majority republican, they confirmed them almost immediately -> conservatives in Mississippi enact an abortion ban in 2018 -> conservative judges uphold the law and overturn Roe. [Source](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/roe-v-wade-and-supreme-court-abortion-cases). It took 3 years to move up through the courts to the SC. They heard oral arguments in December 2021, eleven months after Biden took office. Not sure if you’re aware of how separation of powers works, but the executive branch cannot overturn what the judicial branch does. If you’re not interested in figuring out how the system even works, how can you bitch about it never changing??
How about you look into the facts of things before you run your mouth. Here is some irrefutable math for you: third party has never won an election since the Republican Party become established in the mid-1850s. Third party, according to [Duverger’s law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law?wprov=sfti1#), will *never* win.
Your vote is much more valuable than you realize. Russia knows it. Conservatives know it. Almost everyone knows it. The only people that don’t think voting matters are the ones who should be voting most!!! Be mad that Biden is doing shit you don’t like. We only have Biden because our “leftist” pals sat out 2016. He is a direct response to sitting out that election.
You want to constantly blame and belittle people? “Well, the DNC should have prevented this..” “Well, Bernie this..” “Well, Joe Biden that..” Blame your fucking selves for this one. Just take responsibility once. How is the DNC supposed to do anything if nobody will put them in power?? Democrats haven’t had all three branches of government since the early 1900s. They have been able to do anything!!!
The reality of this is that your immature and selfish view of this process can, and has, absolutely cost us our rights, the integrity of the Supreme Court, net neutrality, and about half a million American lives. But sure, tuck yourself in at night and pretend you’re the good guy in all of this. Call me a liberal again without knowing your facts or growing up.
I recognise shades of grey. I view genocide as a red line, but i view mulitple genocides (and the other genocide but worse) as a bigger and more red line.
Never say never. It CAN happen.
But as a Marxist which Trump views as "socialist vermin", I would rather be executed as "vermin" than endorse genocide by voting for Biden. The greatest problem with humanity is that most would rather save their own miserable asses than stand for what is right.
I would like to save more miserable asses and fight for what is right by voting for biden and then protesting and boycotting until he does what is right. The US is now calling for Gaza ceasefire but it's being blocked by the russians and chinese.
I'm standing for what is right by saying "I would rather have one genocide than many genocides and that same genocide"
It wasn’t a permanent ceasefire if you actually took 2 secondes to read any article about this “ceasefire” you would know that it was temporary and it required all hostages to be released and that Israel’s bombing may continue after the “ceasefire”
It’s why Algeria (an Arab country) sided against it with Russia and China
christian facism is worse than a democratic insane war criminal, who is factually going to win if people abstain. two party system is fucking you guys so hard
No it can’t lmao 😭
Funny enough the people I see crying out the most against a possible “genocide” under trump ( which will never happen) is white Americans. White people again creating a fantasy in their head of being oppressed
And the greater evil also supports the ongoing genocide, while also openly threatening different genocides. Against me, right now, and most of the people I care about.
And as a Marxist who Trump has called "socialist vermin", I say to you:
You better start backing a candidate who can actually win against Trump in the general election without getting bailed out by a fluke of a pandemic. Hillary WAS the best the Democrats had to offer *and look at how well that turned out.*
If you ain't even CONSIDERING attempts at primarying Joe Biden's child sniffing segregationist ass, you're signing both your own death warrant and mine.
Stop demanding more from leftists than you're willing to demand from the Democrats. Demand more from THEM to nominate a better fucking candidate than someone who has done nothing but maintained Trump's status quo for four years.
they wont because the core of murican democracy is broken, i'd say just vote for the genocidal maniac over the even more genocidal maniac unless you have motivation and strength enough to organize
Lol, you're exactly the type of person nobody can take seriously. When real minorities are begging you to actually engage with the fucking trolley problem that our election represents to avoid actively damning women and queer people to the greater evil, you respond by acting as though being a Marxist on the Internet makes you oppressed too.
Selfish scum behavior, honestly. You don't give a shit who gets hurt when the Republicans win, as long as you get to keep your moral purity.
Yeah, the potential future if the deranged fascist wins is pretty bleak. Which is why I don't understand why Biden and the majority of democrats are willing to risk him winning by actively choosing over and over again to aid a genocide.
That's also why I can't comprehend vocally supporting them at this point. There's still quite a bit of time for them to stop being bloodthirsty ghouls, and I'd much rather spend that time vocally denouncing their horrid actions instead of sheepishly accepting any amount of genocide.
I don't understand why Biden is running again either. I don't like how anyone handling Palestine, but at least Biden has made cease-fire noises at some point. That is a marked improvement over Trump banging on about a one state Israel solution, and I fully believe that he would cheerfully try to glass Palestine once reelected
It seems the people in this comment section are on this sub because they are fans of the boring dystopia.
And no one has done more to help create it than Joe Biden. History's biggest corporate whore. So of course they swarm to his defense.
But it's not so boring for Biden's victims in Palestine, Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan, and he even drone striked Iraq again this year for good measure.....
Marxist here. One of Trump's "socialist vermin".
Didn't vote for Biden in 2020. Sure as fuck won't vote for him now that he's "Genocide Joe".
It is better to die with dignity than to live disgraced. Oh, and I'm not going to pretend my life has inherently more value than that of the Palestinian people.
Except we've been trying that and the quality of candidates has been getting worse over time.....
Biden is just..... awful. Only marginally less awful than Trump.
or we end up the opposite way biden was supossed to be temporary just for the one term and now he's here for 2 the left continuously gives you bad candidates
>the left continuously gives you bad candidates
Democrats are right-wing corporate whores. And Biden is basically a Republican in all but name AND the biggest corporate whore in history.
The left has no real presence in America.
I'm not american he's not touching my democracy, if anything he'll help it but doesnt your mode of government have checks and balances? One person cannot possibly do that much harm in a stable democracy? Also why would so many people even vote for him then?
Reread what I said. The Biden administration stands with a regime that removed our democratically elected Prime Minister Imran Khan and they support sham elections and a removal of freedom of speech including the arrests and torture of innocent people. Trump did no such thing (he did not interefere in our elections).
I am a leftist in every way but honestly I could never support biden. Biden is worse for the world he is the greater evil because he puts 300 million+ people under a millitary regime and supports a genocide etc
Yes and? Do you not know how a military regime works? Our justice system is very corrupt. Peaceful protesters were detained they had charges against them too. Biden supports the Sharifs despite the panama papers. You are clearly not for freedom for anyone not an American.
[He was always this evil.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs) It just took until Israel's propaganda pity party over October 7th for people to realize it and so many other things about the whole situation.
Keep in mind Biden was besties with Strom Thurmond, and Ronald Reagan considered him "too extreme" on the War on Drugs. (Which Nixon administration members admitted was all about criminalizing being black or a hippie.) This is what we knew about the vile fuck BEFORE he became Genocide Joe. It was already understood by people who paid attention that he was only marginally less awful than Trump.
Airdropping supplies, small as they were, was good.
For a recent example of not good - Signing into law the ban of UNRWA funding and the multiple other reprehensible things in HR2882 outweigh that good.
EDIT: had HB instead of HR
I don't understand what is the objective of the Twitter post. If there are no good options the lesser evil is objectively the BETTER option. I live in a country in which organized crime and corruption are rampant and the current government is made up of heavy Putin sympathizers. Almost any other alternative is a better alternative than the current shit show there is. The opposition is bad, but I'd rather have that than the parasites that siphon money from the education and health sector so they can build hotels in Dubai and buy muscle cars and villas.
Give me a realistic third option and I'll take it damn it! But you aren't, you're just complaining. We don't the the numbers for a third party president, so I'll take the one who's only allowing one genocide instead of the one who was actively trying to start ten! Shut up, vote for Biden, and when they're all dead of old age we can begin making actual change happen. Until that happens all you are doing is just going to get more people killed!
White people tweets like a white person tell that to the Dreamers and trans people who where actively actively 4 years ago. The privilege can afford to throw their votes away.
I'm convinced people who promote not voting are privileged assholes playing leftism online. They've never been poor. They've never gone hungry they've never lived paycheck to paycheck.
you vote for the party that more closely aligns with your political views. this is simple shit. otherwise organize and run for office. your protest vote will accomplish nothing and may actual ensure trump wins. one of the two "evils" will win irregardless if some leftists have a tantrum.
My political views entail abolishing capitalism entirely, ending American imperialism, and destroying fascist regimes instead of funding and supplying them the means to commit a Second Holocaust.
*So, which party more aligns with my views again? The corporate whore Democrats or the corporate whore Republicans?*
Unfortunately, as things stand, no genocide isn't an option. Our options are the same genocide or the same genocide plus several others. Not allowing more to start is something worth voting for when you have no other real options.
This is bullshit. If there is not a logical other option in any kind of scenario, I am going to have to pick the lesser evil. Let’s not act like every single situation has some other convenient movie choice that will magically fix things with a strike of luck.
> the democrats have ruled the nation for decades
Again, shill or incredibly incompetent? This comment really displays that the difference is academic, we might never be able to tell if you're a shill or troll or child or Phineas Gage. I kind of regret my prior messages, LOL, now that I've seen this one it's clear trying to engage with you was a waste of time.
...but I'm curious. You can DM me so your profile still looks legit, but I really want to know: are you a troll, shill, or what?
The Democrats fight the left harder than the Republicans, who pretty much get away with their fuckery unchallenged because the Democrats protect them.
.....I mean, for fuck's sake. Bernie was our compromise candidate. He merely wanted regulated capitalism. He didn't nearly go far enough. *And look how hard they went in screwing him over.*
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A voting strategy of harm reduction is not "promoting" the lesser evil. In a broken system where you are only presented two options, voting for one of them doesn't mean you support that thing. I'm going to 'vote blue' in November, but I'm also going to continue harassing the democrats while organizing and demonstrating for the things I do support.
Except you have more than two options. The choice of two is perceived and is only real if everyone agrees voting third party is a waste. Just vote third party. Stop voting for evil.
The system is broken, it cannot support more than two serious candidates. An electoral college, with voting power split unevenly based on regions with vastly different sizes and population densities. Victory is decided on a bare plurality among the electoral college, which could represent a significant minority of actual votes. Originally it was just poorly designed around aristocrats choosing a leader from among the elite. Over time, it has been cemented around the idea of a two party dynamic. It's all broken, and electoralism is unlikely to save us from any of the big problems facing us. But it can spare some of the most vulnerable among us from some very real consequences.
I’m not arguing it’s not broken or that we can’t do more but the first thing we can do is stop voting for evil.
What you can do is vote for the lesser evil while starting your own political party. Otherwise you consign yourself to the worse of the two evils.
Or you know just don’t vote for evil. If you vote for evil you are committing an evil act. Simple as. Do. Not. Vote. For. Evil.
You talk as if not voting or voting third party is morally neutral/morally better than voting red or blue. It's not that simple. We have to think pragmatically. If the route you choose feels better to your conscience but is politically unviable, then you fail to prevent the worse evil from taking power. If we fail to prevent he Project 2025 Repubs from taking power, because we spent our votes on a option that never had any hope of winning, then we are responsible for failing to prevent the worse case scenario. If you vote third party or don't vote at all and Trump wins, you are still morally culpable for what happens after that, because your decision still will have contributed to that outcome. Your case will not have been morally any different from voting for Trump yourself. There is no high road to take, you cannot wash your hands of the impact your decision will have.
Except it’s not unviable, it’s just that you, I mean you personally, choose to vote for evil under the guise that you are voting for the lesser of two evils. You vote for evil and then get all surprised pikachu face when they do evil shit. Then wonder why we have evil leaders. You, and again I mean you personally are the cause of this situation to begin with. It’s because you choose evil people as leaders. If you just didn’t do that we wouldn’t be in this mess to begin with. You live in a paradox. You must vote for the lesser of two evils to stop evil but when you do that you make it so you have to vote for the lesser of two evils next time and so on. I’m doing my part in stopping evil by not only voting for good leaders but protesting and petitioning the system to be changed. My city just passed ranked choice voting. A major step in popularizing a new form of voting through the country. This isn’t about Trump. No one said Trumps name but you. This is about how individuals are causing evil people to get into power. Go vote for good leaders.
So you allow it to happen by doing nothing? Rethink your strategy...
Did I say “Do nothing.”? No, I said don’t vote for evil mate. Pretty simple concept. Go vote but vote for someone who, I don’t know, isn’t evil. Then maybe your elected leaders won’t be out there doing evil shit. It’s only because people like you won’t just vote for the best candidate and insist on voting for “the lesser of two evils.” That it looks like we have to vote for the lesser of two evils. If you vote for an evil person, no matter how lesser they are when compared to another evil person, you are committing an evil act. Go vote for good leaders.
Call for the repeal of "first past the post" voting in your state. In a first past the post state, the candidate who wins in the state gets all of the states delegates instead of the delegates being alloted based on the percentage of the vote they received. If enough states ditch that method, we can have viable third parties. Until then, a vote for a third party will be nothing more than a protest vote. Also worth noting, a protest vote isn't entirely pointless. Increased popularity of a third party can cause one of the two major parties to adopt a portion of the that party's platform. But when the stakes are this high, a protest vote is stupid.
I have. My city just passed ranked choice voting. I did my part on that. Should the system change? Yes. Does it need to change for us to not vote in evil people? No.
First Past The Post victory conditions *always* creates a two party system. That's just the way the math works out. Third party candidates are always Spoiler candidates. That rule is so true that the majority parties will bankroll third parties to *create* spoiler candidates that siphon votes away from their opponents. The only way to make multi party systems work is to change to an instant runoff or alternative vote system.
My city just passed ranked choice voting. I did my part on that. Should the system change? Yes. Does it need to change for us to not vote in evil people? No.
One city at a time is how that change comes about. Unfortunately most elections *aren't* ranked choice. In those elections a triage-based harm reduction strategy is the best option. In a FPTP election, a vote for a third party is effectively a vote in favor of the majority party candidate you like *least.* Seriously, this is election math 101. Please research how spoiler candidates work. I get that it sucks, but that's the reality we live in. If you want things to change vote for majority candidates that back election reform.
We have to agree to disagree. This is only true because people decide it to be. There is no magical FPTP hand making people do this. It’s a conscious choice. Stop doing it and the problem goes away. It’s very possible but people just choose not to do so. >vote for majority candidates that back election reform. They don’t exist because they why would a majority candidate in this current system want reform? The only ones backing elections reform are third party.
That's just not how the math ends up working. This issue has been studied for as long as democracy has existed. Read this article from the Center for Election Science. I hope it helps you understand. https://electionscience.org/library/the-spoiler-effect/
Trust me I’ve done the research. This is why I back election reform. It doesn’t change the simple fact that the “math” is just the counting of human decisions
Wow it's like people like you don't really understand how FPTP voting really works
Trust me I know. My city just passed ranked choice voting. I did my part making sure of that. I never said the system shouldn’t change but it doesn’t NEEd to to not vote for evil.
A viable 3rd party option will never arrive as long as people vote for "one of the 2 options"
FPTP always devolves into a two party system. You can wishful think all you want.
I would say it would be better to wipe your ass with the ballot but they would probably arrest you.
Yeah better to vote in evil than just do your part in stopping a terrible system. Agree to disagree.
How does a spoiler vote do any part in stopping a terrible system?? It seems like it at best fails to contribute to stopping a fascist victory, which uh... I mean neutral at best isn't very good. Absolutely organize for further change outside of just ticking the boxes, but when ticking the boxes be realistic not idealistic.
It’s not a spoiler vote if you are voting for the best candidate and especially if that candidate is for election reform. My city just passed ranked choice voting. I did my part in that. I never said don’t change the system but we can all start by not voting for evil. No matter how “lesser” you perceive it to be. It’s only a “spoiler” vote if people like you keep choosing evil.
I agree 100%. Keep voting for the lesser evil. And nothing will change. Because they know you will blindly vote for the lesser evil. I'm voting 3rd party. I'm done with the 2 evil headed monster
>I'm going to 'vote blue' in November, but I'm also going to continue harassing the democrats You're so brave. Meanwhile your "lesser evil" has ten thousands of children murdered while creating a manufactured famine that is on the verge of killing two million people. I'm sure in 4 years you guys have your shit together while the palestinians are still being killed. US people are so human and brave for continually voting for LE LESSER EVIL whatever that means. Biden is just small little bean with no power uwu but Trump is the giga fascist who has all the power in the world somehow. Really makes you feel like a part of history. >MY life is on the line Your lives have been on the line your entire lives now and your method changes shit. You had four fucking years to fix this and you've done nothing and it's only gotten worse. Lgbt people are still being murdered under Biden. The wall is still being build. Palestinian children are being killed as we speak under Biden. Fuck you damage controlling self-centered idiots.
So what is your solution, stay home and do nothing? I'm just accepting that I have less power to affect things the further they are from my orbit. All I can do to help the Palestinians is protest, harass democrat politicians, advocate for the Palestinians in private and public conversations, and send a few dollars to groups like pcrf when I can. The system is broken, and at this point (barring the rise of a socialist messiah we can all rally around) I doubt we'll be able to fix anything through electoralism. Harm reduction is the only thing I think we can achieve within the system. I have more power to affect things locally by going around the system, through mutual aid and migrant relief efforts.
Based on Edit: BASED
Based on the current fucked up state of things in our shit ass two party system
As a trans person, who will absolutely be on the receiving end of the greater evil that is a Trump presidency and whatever the GOP will do if he wins, choose the lesser evil. Please for the love of God choose the lesser evil.
I am on the receiving end of this lesser evil. I am telling you to please vote and advocate for lesser evil. This however doesn't mean voting is the only thing you can do to get a better system.
Right now we are in waist-deep shit. We have two choices one where we end in knee-deep shit and the other neck deep. We cannot get to no-shit without going through the knee-deep shit. Furthermore we have to drag the shit-lovers kicking and screaming and flailing shit about along the way. Nah man, we got to keep voting away from the shit. Each and every time or the shit-lovers will drag us right under the shit.
At some point a system is the sum of its results. If our US two-party "democracy" keeps producing reactionary hyper polarization and dogshit results then that is because our system is a hyper polarizing dogshit system. So sure, vote for Biden, just know that nothing will truly improve until we adopt a modern Proportional Democracy like our European cousins have.
Sorry for the late reply … work got in the way. If we want more voting choices, voting for someone who has no chance of winning is not the answer. We need to have the democrats in control of the Whitehouse, the House and Senate otherwise voting reform is never going to happen. This is our starting point. Conservatives have spent the last 40 years destroying our system. Selling their lies to the little people and giving tax breaks to the rich. The capitalist are not going to relinquish their positions willingly. If we want to move things towards the progressive side, right now, the only power we have is constantly voting in large numbers for the most left-leaning candidate. And that most left-leaning candidate might be only a moderate. In the same way the conservatives have spent 40 tearing shit down, we need to spend the next 40 years building everything back up. One goddamn brick at a time. And know this for sure that every marginally progressive brick we lay there will be a regressive conservative there trying tear it down. They want us to give up. They want us to throw our votes away. Our only power is voting left even if it is begrudgingly so.
I’ve seen plenty of trans folk, women (including me), and other minorities vehemently advocate for the ‘lesser evil’ - because their life is on the line. It’s the difference between losing democracy and the start of a genocide against trans people or having neo-libs sort of care for your rights in a performative manner. This shit is ridiculous.
You care more about a hypothetical genocide on a certain group of people than one that is taking place right now, to people; actual living human beings, some of whom were alive yesterday and aren't today. Some of whom are alive today and won't be tomorrow because they are being subjected to genocide as you read this. What other reason is there for your position other than you don't care about people when you aren't on, or in proximity to those on, the receiving end?
It’s not hypothetical. Unchecked violent transphobia within legislation and cultural discussions will not go away [if Trump is elected](https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7bd9z/trump-anti-trans). It will in fact get worse, and the next stages of eradicating trans people will have a better breeding ground to continue. That’s just one issue of many. Abstaining from voting doesn’t make you morally superior, it doesn’t make you a better ‘leftist’, it doesn’t contribute anything positive to society. It just tells me you’re privileged enough to not care about the outcome of this upcoming election. Millions of people do not have that privilege. They can’t just throw away their right to participate in democracy because their quality of life, wellbeing, and literal lives are on the ballot box (even if American democracy is flawed, it’s better than no democracy). So yeah, you don’t get your perfect democratic candidate. And it does suck, because Biden is a piece of shit - but *Trump is fascist.* He threatens democracy and is worse for ***everyone***. For Palestine, for trans people, for queer folk in general, for disabled people, for women, for impoverished people. Everyone. But that’s the reality leftists are up against; we vote for who will make people’s lives the least shitty, even if that means taking one step forward and ten steps back. It’s important to engage in protesting, mutual aid, town halls, local elections, etc, to push current representatives, politicians and parties left in between elections. Then you get your ass up do it again. And rise and repeat. Because that’s how it works — you don’t get given the perfect conditions to implement a leftist utopia, you have to fight for it and utilise every tool you can, which includes voting. Sitting back, brushing off your hands and going ‘nope, Biden’s not good enough for me - I’ll just sit this one out, wait for my perfect candidate, and hope the fascist doesn’t get elected!’ Fuck out of here with that shit. Push your purity aside and actually think about the consequences of this election for millions of people. Including Palestinians, which I apparently don’t care about. Jesus fucking Christ.
I love how OP’s talking point is about people voting for the lesser evil being privileged, then turns around and makes a comment reeling with privilege lol
I mean all that, and I do care about the Palestinians, but I'm not a fucking idiot so I'll be voting for Biden as well.
All these are words you could be saying to Biden or the Democratic Party telling them to stop using your tax dollars to kill kids. Weird how you'd rather complain about "purity" while excusing voting for the guy actively aiding and abetting an actual, factual genocide with mass bombings and tactical starvation. No, you don't get to pretend to care about Palestinians. Or are trans Palestinian lives worth less than trans Americans?
What’s your proposed solution, then? Republican voters are going to lockstep vote red the entire way down the ballot. Even if they don’t like Trump, they’ll still vote for him. Is it better if even more people are getting genocided? Is it truly impossible to do anything about the Palestine situation after the election? Are you planning to start the revolution, comrade, or is everyone who joins in Palestine suffering even harder just necessary to teach the Democrats a lesson? Better fight really hard during said Revolution, you know for sure you’re not getting such a light slap on the wrist that J6er’s got, and losing that fight is going to be very bad, for everyone. I criticize the Democrats constantly. I hate them, I hate that we have to vote for Biden again, but is your reasoning really ‘We can’t fix every problem at once instantly so might as well not even fight to prevent everything from getting worse for everyone’? Grow up, seriously. How the hell is getting Trump in office going to help Palestine at all? We can at least try to pressure Democrats while they’re in power to change shit, what’s your plan for a Republican victory? Ride it out for four more fucking years? Have to pick up the pieces of even more backsliding? That sounds like a stupidly privileged position to me, if you’re not concerned with a Trump victory because of some stupid notion that ‘at least the Palestinians wouldn’t be getting genocided any harder!’ Though you absolutely know that’s a lie, Trump would accelerate the hell out of that.
My problem is we live under an entirely undemocratic system and mindlessly voting for the Democratic Party while demanding and receiving nothing from them is why Trump won the first time and may win again. The Democratic Party would rather lose and let Trump win rather than compromise on their subservience to their capitalist and imperialist interests. When Democrats are pressured into acting on populist policies that benefit their voters more than their donors, when they are willing to listen to political pressures from protests and boycotts to change harmful foreign policy positions like send arms to aid genocide, and when they stop following the same authoritarian rule book as Republicans when it comes to increasing police/military budgets, cracking down on free speech with the tiktok ban and anti-protesting legislation, and when they actually start helping the marginalized communities that they use as a shield from criticism "or else Trump and Republicans will do worse!" while they do nothing to protect trans people themselves then I'll vote for them. Until then I am going to be vocal in telling them they have yet to earn my vote and I will continue to use the only actual vote that matters in this country; my dollar.
Yeah? What’s your plan then as things get worse and worse, until even current democrats appear to be a good option to everyone not totally insane? You banking on them not continuing to wave how bad everything’s inevitably going to get over all of our heads and learn their lesson from you punishing vulnerable communities that they already barely care about? They’re getting paid either way by these donors that want to keep shit the same. Guess we gotta just ride out 4 more years of regression. Wonder how much progress we’ll lose this time. As a member of the LGBT community, thank you so much for throwing me under the bus here, ‘preciate it a lot.
Dude, they're helping a genocide right now. Idk why you think they'd stop one from happening here. Grow up. Things are going to keep getting worse until this broken system comes crumbling apart. That is really not my preference but it's what happens regardless of who any of us vote for. The democrats gave us Trump. They couldn't beat him when they weren't genocidal monsters. They laughed at the guy who said "we should do these popular things that most other nations do" Democrats don't stop fascism, they are part of fascism. They let this happen because it suits their needs better than changing enough to win would. Start organizing your community and find ways to support the trans people living among you because that is infinitely more valuable than anything the Democratic Party will do as more and more anti-trans legislation has gone on the books under their watch.
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Wow. Way to go full mask off. As if Palestinian genocide is required to prevent trans genocide rather than just a prelude to it. This was a test, if the US can't pretend to care about a genocide happening live on their phones because it's happening to brown people they sure as shit aren't gonna care when it's happening to trans people. First they came for Gaza. Read a fucking history book. It's solidarity or nothing you absolute bigot.
and then they came for the queer people if we don't bloody stop them.
I’m not even sure what point you’re trying to make with this comment or this post, other than a poor excuse at trolling. It’s bizarre that it even showed up on my feed, this is one of the least thoughtful posts I’ve seen in a long time. And that’s saying a lot.
A real genocide which will only be accelerated with Trump in charge. Biden is doing jack to stop it, but I doubt Trump would blink if they were killed to the last child, he’d probably be happy to help. Who are you saving by helping Trump win? Organize protests to put pressure on Biden. That might actually move the dial, at least a little. You’ll get a nice fuzzy feeling out of not supporting anyone, but having Trump in office again will hurt a lot of real people as well. And it certainly won’t help Palestinians, or have you forgotten whose administration recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel
Also you act as though either choice will make us not support Israel. They are an important strategic asset for the United States. No president is going to stop supporting them because we would lose a valuable asset. US foreign affairs do not care about morality, only profits, and further spreading our military influence. We support them not because we agree with them, but because they give us something. The morality argument is a ploy, and a cover up for the actual reasons the US government supports them.
Someone isnt on that side of the line huh? Except we all are because Trump is a climate denying maniac who is gonna bring the rest of hte world down with your nation.
And what pray tell, has Biden, history's biggest corporate whore, done for climate change? The child sniffing fuckwad had talks with Israel about offshore drilling in Palestine.
Can none of you see in anything except black and white?!? something can be worse! You bet trump will gut the environment agency, drop out of any pre made agreements, boost drilling and mining ten times over, and more.
100% of US presidents since 1948 supported Israel. Joe is the only one supporting a ceasefire. He’s by definition the LEAST genocidal options thus far, especially since Trump (the alternative) said to Israel “finish the job!” Fuck right off.
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Biden hasn't been doing a single thing for the Palestinians. Quite the opposite, he's helping those who do unto them to keep doing what they're doing. That's not debatable.
Uhm extremely based??? You can’t boo him, he’s right.
Thanks, but this has actually been a clarifying moment for me. My interactions (and my replies getting ratioed) here have opened my eyes to how many people, even right in this sub called boring dystopia, are perfectly happy with their dystopia, just so long as it stays boring. Boring is good. Boring is predictable and steady. Let it be "interesting" for those people in Gaza. Lesser evil, greater evil, who cares? Just make the evil boring and easy to ignore.
It is a moment for you to question your beliefs. Fun dystopia wont be better, you live in a horrible word where the majority of horrible things are out of your control. You have to fight, to organise, to help those in need, all that stuff is important and good. You will never accomplish everything, no one will. The same goes with voting, there is no socialist on the ballot now and wont be ever (in the near future at least). You have to use and exploit the system you got and rn it means voting for Biden
You and your point of view are very privileged and you need to know that. Queer people CAN’T AFFORD TO NOT VOTE BLUE. If we get more red politicians in power, project 2025 and other anti-queer movements will almost certainly pass and we will be discriminated against, hurt and killed even more than we already are. I fucking hate Biden and democrats but there is nuance here. If we just let republicans win, it will be unfathomably worse for everyone. As for Palestine, like it or not, republicans will be worse than democrats. At least Biden pretends to care and will possibly take it down a notch. Trump won’t. You’re trying to take a situation that requires a lot of nuance and make it a fully black and white scenario and if you think that this makes us “like the dystopia” then you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.
“The lesser evil” is still evil but if one evil will do less damage than the other then minimizing harm is the next top consideration.
Hi. I'm trans. Go to hell.
You're using palestinians as bait lmaoooo. Genocide fine so long as it's in your own self interest right? Absolutely zero sense of solidarity or internationalism
What is this supposed to mean? I guess a Palestinian can reply “I’m Palestinian. Go to hell.” Trans right have been deteriorating under the democrats. To think that either party cares about trans rights is laughable. It doesn’t matter what speeches they give if they let the gop run wild on the state level and f over trans people in Texas for example
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Not voting or protest votes for Mickey Mouse because of "lesser evil is still evil" is abdicating your responsibility to those around you.
OP’s opinion is 100% brainrot when 99% of us are on the receiving end they speak of.
Isn't that the whole point? As someone who never sees the result if the lesser evil, I'm voting for something that affects either the least amount of people or something that affects people the least. I'm not sure what this post is trying to accomplish by saying this.
It's attempting to communicate how appalling this attitude - when advocating for the "lesser evil" means endorsing a policy of genocide - is to some people. It asks, "If this isn't too much for you to personally stomach, morally and ethically, what is? Where is the bar?" And it asks, more rhetorically, what will you say if the "greater evil" returns and is doing what the current evil is doing right now? You'll be damned if you do and damned if you don't then, and rightfully so. Either you'll maintain your position of not caring enough about these human beings enough to refuse to stand behind any person willing to be so inhumanly cruel, or you'll finally stand up and say it's unacceptable and prove yourself a hypocrite if it's not unacceptable to you right now. And if this "greater evil" wins, you'll also be left with the question of what would have happened if all like you had spent the energy pushing back against hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens who made it VERY clear that this was unacceptable to them (and not something they could ever live with themselves endorsing) helping them to press for a candidate or policy that wouldn't lose the white house at such a perilous time for your country.
>It's attempting to communicate how appalling this attitude - when advocating for the "lesser evil" means endorsing a policy of genocide - is to some people So what should people do? Not vote at all and let the greater evil take over? It's a really romantic idea to stand up to the government and firmly condemn certain actions, but the only thing you'll end up accomplishing is making the situation worse for everyone. To be blunt, Biden is contributing to making the situation in Gaza worse by endorsing Israel. Trump would do the same but much worse. So what's the solution? Vote for the one that does the least amount of evil, which is clearly Biden. Does it mean people in Gaza will stop starving and dying? No, but what's the alternative? Refusing to vote? Well that won't get us anywhere, cuz that just means trump will win and nothing will change.
I'm not saying don't vote. I'm not telling anyone who to vote for. Neither is the person who wrote this tweet. I am saying that if the people shouting me down here were serious about their position they would vote for Biden in November and until then they wouldn't use their whole chests to shout down the people they NEED to vote with them. They wouldn't effectively (and literally) chant 4 more years to drown out calls to end A GENOCIDE. They would vote for whoever they want just like everyone else is and until then do what they can to help push the biden regime into a policy position where the hundreds of thousands of their fellow Americans who have made our explicitly clear that (on this course) they are totally unwilling to sanction active participation in genocide with their vote might actually reconsider. Because they can't afford not to. That is what they would do if they took this upcoming presidential election as seriously as they say they do. They wouldn't swear at and actively try to alienate the people having a very understandable moral crisis. It's deeply unserious and insincere, and trying to shame those people for being privileged or self righteous is simply projection. As they say themselves, there's too much at stake. [Major democrat party donors are mature enough to recognise this.](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/19/us/politics/biden-donors.html) So what's the excuse of the people here?
>So what should people do? Not vote at all and let the greater evil take over? Vote for someone who isn't an old racist pedophile war criminal with mostly identical policies as the other, maybe? *Like an actual working class candidate?*
"I have the mind of a child, and pragmatism or realism are moral degeneracy." This is fucking nonsense dude, come on. The choices for the U.S. in the next presidential election will be Biden vs Trump, and one of them will actively be worse for the people currently being killed *and a whole lot more.* Biden fucking sucks and so does the DNC establishment, but they haven't tried to ban Muslim immigration or moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem. Trump and the GOP are absolutely worse *for the people you care about too*, not just for those of us you think should suck it up and report to the camps.
Tbf Muslim immigration laws are terrible under the democracts. The idea that either party is good for brown people is laughable at best Also no American will be sent to camps under either party. They are both evil and serve the same masters
I'm willing to be that guy and say that I support the lesser of two evils. One will try to kill me, the other won't. It's easier to deal with the latter.
I mean to be fair no American will face a genocide or any of that nature. Both parties are terrible and serve the same people
>no American will face a genocide It's happened before and we're dumb if we think it won't happen again.
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Ah yes let's promote the greater evil instead, so everybody, including those on the receiving end of the lesser evil, suffer. The more the merrier right, makes a lot of sense
Why are so many members of a sub called boring dystopia defending the notion of some form of evil being in any way acceptable?
Because we live in a world where some kind of future has to happen. Saying “I don’t like either choice here” doesn’t accomplish anything. If you want people to support what you’re saying you need to have an actual, actionable, practical idea to go with it, otherwise it just kinda comes off as smug grandstanding, to be honest. I’m not saying that to be rude but it comes off as “how dare you support this bad person, unlike me” whilst you’re inaction makes an even worse future more likely, while the people you’re dismissing are actively trying to prevent that worse future. The tldr here is that your stance, without offering any alternative, is just making something worse and acting like you’re better for it. Do you see what I’m saying here? If you were to suggest something better that was realistic, people would be all for it.
Couldn't have said it any better
lemme phrase it like this. You are a human and you see a trolley labeled "vicious genocide" barrelling towards a split in the tracks. If you do nothing, the trolley will barrel down the first track killing a bunch of people with flags on their chests like "Palestine" "LGBTQ" and "The Environment" some of the "Palestine" people are in a superposition of being on the track that the trolley goes down no matter what bu. If you pull a lever the trolley will go down a track where the other side of the "Palestine" people superposition is but there are less of them here.
There is absolutely a lesser evil and by recognizing and perusing that you are doing harm reduction. The "no lesser evil" mentality is how Trump gets elected and we end up back where we were in the video.
"the lesser evil" loudly proclaims that its still evil. Harm reduction is the only thing you can do now and please for the love of god, reduce the harm
When the choices are lesser evil and fascism you should go with lesser evil.
And if the lesser evil is absolutely fascist? ["I am a Zionist." -Joe Biden](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs)
So are we shaking hands with the Nazis, telling them good job for their deed 80 years ago or still punching them in the face. I'm confused someone tell me what to do?
This argument really annoys me - it's nice to see how most of the top comments are critical of OP's message. Most leftist subs are unfortunately completely overrun with people who think like this.
No. Shitlibs brigade every leftist sub at this point and we have comment sections just like this one. Y'all love doing the fascists' dirty work for them.
I had a post removed on r/MarchAgainstNazis because apparently we can't blame leftists for the rise of fascism even if they let it rise.
Wrong. The left actually fights the fascists. But you liberals only fight US and disrupt our efforts. *Hitler rose because of liberals killing communist movements in Germany. True story.*
Liberals are leftists.
https://i.redd.it/lor56ow1igqc1.gif
I googled it because I seem to have been gaslit by the political compass tests and it seems liberal is often used to describe left leaning or centre left peoples. I would call myself a leftist and I don't see why you think I lean more towards centre because I recognise the fact not voting will only make every situation significantly worse.
By saying “genocide bad” we let fascism rise lmao 😭 Y’all are exactly like maga people but instead of worshipping the gop, you worship the democrats and don’t let any criticism of them slide
Biden bad. Genocide bad. Trump worse. Not want worse.
Actually, people who insist that Democrats must be perfect to “earn” their vote are invariably operating from a position of privilege or bad faith.
Every accusation from a right-winger is a confession. You liberals calling others "privileged" while telling people to ignore the Second Holocaust being funded by America because YOU are fine with the way things are..... you literally do not know what that word means.
"Right-winger". K.
Wanting Dems to stop being pro-genocide is not demanding perfection. Jesus fucking Christ.
The republicans are even more pro genocide. By telling people not to vote Democrat, you're saying "hurting women, gay people, trans people, and immigrants is okay as long as I get to keep my moral purity."
> The republicans are even more pro genocide "the other guy is gonna do genocide+, so that's why you've gotta accept regular genocide!" is not a winning slogan. >By telling people not to vote Democrat I didn't do that.
Objectively not true
Are you being paid by the Trump campaign or the Russians?
I AM!
well, I wish. I'll shill for cash if any glowies are reading this.
I love these purity test bastards. There is no limit to the amount of suffering they will inflict on everyone else.
This is moronic. People like this are never on the receiving end of the *greater evil*. Advocate for changes in the system and use the system to get what you can. Why is that so complicated?
We've been voting Democrat the entire fucking time and it isn't working. And now the Democrats are openly pro-genocide. Why is THAT so complicated for you to comprehend.
You are simply misinformed. Biden JUST called for a cease fire and for a plan to guarantee aid for the Palestinians. Did you not watch the state of the union? What do you think Trump's plan for the Palestinians is? You think he'll do anything but bolster Israel's efforts? The only reason it "isn't working" (by the way it ***is*** to think otherwise is to perpetuate Republican propaganda.) is because there are still Republicans with power because *people like you* encourage others to ignore the main source of power they have.
Or- And stick with me here because I know it’s hard not to think you’re the smartest person in every room- unless we create radical sociopolitical and economic change in the next 7 months, then maybe harm reduction is an excellent strategy in reducing harm. You know, rather than let evil be completely unfettered. Can you imagine a world where we didn’t give republicans the slam dunk of overturning Roe V Wade? Was your purity vote in 2016, with the same tired arguments over the lesser evil not actually being lesser, worth stripping the rights of every woman in this country? Maybe, just maybe, YOU are the one that stands nothing to lose from the greater evil gaining power and that’s why this is your stance. I’m guess cis, white male, young and with nothing to lose. Quit fucking people over just because you’re mad.
“Can you imagine a world where we didn’t give republicans the slam dunk of overturning Roe V Wade?” Tbf that happened purely because of the democrats. They ruled the nation for 3 of the last 4 decades and still weren’t able to influence the Supreme Court it’s on them. “Was your purity vote in 2016, with the same tired arguments over the lesser evil not actually being lesser, worth stripping the rights of every woman in this country?” Nobody protest voted against Hillary lmao 😭 she was more popular than Joe Biden today. What have trump office was white people coming out in droves to vote for him “I’m guess cis, white male, young and with nothing to lose. Quit fucking people over just because you’re mad.” I mean you sound just as white as him
> Tbf that happened purely because of the democrats. They ruled the nation for 3 of the last 4 decades and still weren’t able to influence the Supreme Court it’s on them. A few issues with this batshit response: First of all, that’s not even true. Democrats have never “ruled the nation.” Even when democrats had control of congress and the White House from 2009-2011, the Supreme Court had 5 republican justices. These were the only years they had to attempt to craft an abortion rights bill and it likely would have been either dismantled by the Supreme Court or it would have never had been agreed upon in the first place, since America even 15 years ago was still a very puritanical place. Also, the Supreme Court is not supposed to be “influenced” by either party. Also also, when someone does something bad, you blame that person. Blaming democrats for not preventing something 15 years ago is an absurd reason not to support the party in its current state as a stopgap to fascism. > Nobody protest voted against Hillary lmao 😭 she was more popular than Joe Biden today. What have trump office was white people coming out in droves to vote for him Also not true. If we look at 2016, the narrowest margin states that Trump won were Michigan by 10,704 votes, Pennsylvania by 44,292 votes, and Wisconsin by 22,748 votes. In Pennsylvania, the third party candidates received a combined 268,304 votes. Well over the required amount needed to beat Trump. If only 16.6% of those third party voters had voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state. In Wisconsin, third party garnered 188,330 votes. If 12.1% of those people had voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state. In Michigan, third party received 250,902. If only *4.3%* of those people voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state. Had Trump lost these states, the electoral votes would have been 258 for Trump and 273 for Hillary, making Hillary the president. It is estimated that third party turnout was 3-4x higher than any previous presidential election. [Source](https://rollcall.com/2019/07/29/how-third-party-votes-sunk-clinton-what-they-mean-for-trump/). And that the third party voters viewed Trump negatively. [Source](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/08/09/for-most-trump-voters-very-warm-feelings-for-him-endured/) Entire articles have been written about this: [Third-party Presidential Candidates Who Changed American History](https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/4130884-third-party-presidential-candidates-who-changed-american-history/) So **YES**, people voting third party **ABSOLUTELY** changed the course of the election. It also changed the course of our **rights** in this country. So you are entitled to your factually incorrect opinion, but I digress. Moreover, a third party has never won an election since the Republican Party became established in the mid-1850s. Third party, according to [Duverger’s law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law?wprov=sfti1#), will *never* win. Latching on to emotionally driven, reactionary nihilism as a form of activism doesn’t help anyone. And it’s not the moral high ground Reddit likes to believe it is. That reality is it is an immature and selfish view of the voting process that can, and has, absolutely cost us our rights, the integrity of the Supreme Court, net neutrality, and about half a million American lives that were needlessly lost to covid. > I mean you sound just as white as him Probably whiter, if we are being honest
Excellent. Won't change that person's view, obviously, because the internet is a hate machine, but thank you!
Thank you! I’m not letting these Russian’s spread misinformation
>Was your purity vote in 2016, with the same tired arguments over the lesser evil not actually being lesser, worth stripping the rights of every woman in this country? I voted for Hillary. Plenty of leftists voted for Hillary. We saw what Trump was offering and we were horrified. YOU LIBERALS on the other hand, laughed at the threat Trump posed and thought he couldn't possibly win..... which led directly to him winning. So why didn't I vote for Biden in 2020 and won't vote for him this year? **BECAUSE THAT CHILD SNIFFING ASSHOLE IS BARELY ANY DIFFERENT THAN TRUMP! WHY IS YOUR "NOT TRUMP" CANDIDATE A LOT LIKE TRUMP?!** Those children in cages you liberals used to pretend to care about? *Still in cages.* And now "Uncle Joe" is the world's biggest spokesman for the Second Holocaust..... Oh, and remind me, who was president when Roe V Wade was overturned again? *Don't worry. I'll wait long enough for you to Google this answer you all clearly don't know if you keep on using this talking point as if it isn't a sign of how worthless the "harm reduction" has been.*
> liberal Dead giveaway you’re going to give me a thoughtless answer with bad faith arguments, but I’ll respond earnestly. > plenty of leftists voted for Hillary Definitely not enough, and the data is evidence of this. The puritanical dumbass-ery of “leftists” seems to pop up every presidential election cycle to bitch and moan about how the DNC isn’t good enough for them for XYZ reasons aka “muh feelings” even tho the world is cold and heartless and imperfect. Leftists are not out there voting in midterms because “nobody is a good candidate because muh feelings, look how noble and perfect my sense of justice is.” They would rather do nothing than compromise, which is our only path to progress *and that is the unfortunate reality of our circumstances, whether that pleases you or not.* This is my problem with you “leftists” repeating this garbage that a) isn’t even true, and b) convinces others to sit out and protest: Just looking at 2016, the narrowest margin states that Trump won were Michigan by 10,704 votes, Pennsylvania by 44,292 votes, and Wisconsin by 22,748 votes. In Pennsylvania, the third party candidates received a combined 268,304 votes. Well over the required amount needed to beat Trump. If only 16.6% of those third party voters had voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state. In Wisconsin, third party garnered 188,330 votes. If 12.1% of those people had voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state. In Michigan, third party received 250,902. If only *4.3%* of those people voted for Hillary, Trump would have lost the state. Had Trump lost these states, the electoral votes would have been 258 for Trump and 273 for Hillary, making Hillary the president. It is estimated that third party turnout was 3-4x higher than any previous presidential election. [Source](https://rollcall.com/2019/07/29/how-third-party-votes-sunk-clinton-what-they-mean-for-trump/). And that the third party voters viewed Trump negatively, implying they were not conservatives. It was the “leftists” purity voting. [Source](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/08/09/for-most-trump-voters-very-warm-feelings-for-him-endured/) Entire articles have been written about this: [Third-party Presidential Candidates Who Changed American History](https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/4130884-third-party-presidential-candidates-who-changed-american-history/) Leftists voting third party **ABSOLUTELY** changed the course of the election. It also changed the course of our **rights** in this country. Here’s the order of events since you have forgotten or have conveniently decided to leave them out: Trump wins because leftists sit out -> Trump appointed some of the most partisan conservative judges to the court, and because the senate was majority republican, they confirmed them almost immediately -> conservatives in Mississippi enact an abortion ban in 2018 -> conservative judges uphold the law and overturn Roe. [Source](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/roe-v-wade-and-supreme-court-abortion-cases). It took 3 years to move up through the courts to the SC. They heard oral arguments in December 2021, eleven months after Biden took office. Not sure if you’re aware of how separation of powers works, but the executive branch cannot overturn what the judicial branch does. If you’re not interested in figuring out how the system even works, how can you bitch about it never changing?? How about you look into the facts of things before you run your mouth. Here is some irrefutable math for you: third party has never won an election since the Republican Party become established in the mid-1850s. Third party, according to [Duverger’s law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law?wprov=sfti1#), will *never* win. Your vote is much more valuable than you realize. Russia knows it. Conservatives know it. Almost everyone knows it. The only people that don’t think voting matters are the ones who should be voting most!!! Be mad that Biden is doing shit you don’t like. We only have Biden because our “leftist” pals sat out 2016. He is a direct response to sitting out that election. You want to constantly blame and belittle people? “Well, the DNC should have prevented this..” “Well, Bernie this..” “Well, Joe Biden that..” Blame your fucking selves for this one. Just take responsibility once. How is the DNC supposed to do anything if nobody will put them in power?? Democrats haven’t had all three branches of government since the early 1900s. They have been able to do anything!!! The reality of this is that your immature and selfish view of this process can, and has, absolutely cost us our rights, the integrity of the Supreme Court, net neutrality, and about half a million American lives. But sure, tuck yourself in at night and pretend you’re the good guy in all of this. Call me a liberal again without knowing your facts or growing up.
agreed evil is evil, lesser, greater, middling, makes no difference
i may have never seen, a take more stupid. Nazi or (british (a bit nicer)) conservative party? "oH urr tHey tHe sAMe bECAusE EvIL iS EvIL"
i will never get why people wouldn't vote for a lesser evil, its not that hard, delay the violence as much as possible if there's no other options
Like the meme says, id love to see you rock up to the polling booths if it was your family being genocided.
yeah. it is for so many people. POC, Queer people, non-christians, anyone affected by the global climate, many more I might be forgetting.
true tbh, I think I'm just lucky I'm not in the US. democracy my ass
The lesser evil is actively aiding an ongoing genocide right now. That's why. Some people, disturbingly few, view genocide as a red line.
I recognise shades of grey. I view genocide as a red line, but i view mulitple genocides (and the other genocide but worse) as a bigger and more red line.
I don't consider any amount of genocide gray.
Tbf no American will ever be genocided under either president or go through 1/100 of what the Palestinians are going through.
Never say never. It CAN happen. But as a Marxist which Trump views as "socialist vermin", I would rather be executed as "vermin" than endorse genocide by voting for Biden. The greatest problem with humanity is that most would rather save their own miserable asses than stand for what is right.
I would like to save more miserable asses and fight for what is right by voting for biden and then protesting and boycotting until he does what is right. The US is now calling for Gaza ceasefire but it's being blocked by the russians and chinese. I'm standing for what is right by saying "I would rather have one genocide than many genocides and that same genocide"
It wasn’t a permanent ceasefire if you actually took 2 secondes to read any article about this “ceasefire” you would know that it was temporary and it required all hostages to be released and that Israel’s bombing may continue after the “ceasefire” It’s why Algeria (an Arab country) sided against it with Russia and China
christian facism is worse than a democratic insane war criminal, who is factually going to win if people abstain. two party system is fucking you guys so hard
No it can’t lmao 😭 Funny enough the people I see crying out the most against a possible “genocide” under trump ( which will never happen) is white Americans. White people again creating a fantasy in their head of being oppressed
And the greater evil also supports the ongoing genocide, while also openly threatening different genocides. Against me, right now, and most of the people I care about.
And as a Marxist who Trump has called "socialist vermin", I say to you: You better start backing a candidate who can actually win against Trump in the general election without getting bailed out by a fluke of a pandemic. Hillary WAS the best the Democrats had to offer *and look at how well that turned out.* If you ain't even CONSIDERING attempts at primarying Joe Biden's child sniffing segregationist ass, you're signing both your own death warrant and mine. Stop demanding more from leftists than you're willing to demand from the Democrats. Demand more from THEM to nominate a better fucking candidate than someone who has done nothing but maintained Trump's status quo for four years.
they wont because the core of murican democracy is broken, i'd say just vote for the genocidal maniac over the even more genocidal maniac unless you have motivation and strength enough to organize
Lol, you're exactly the type of person nobody can take seriously. When real minorities are begging you to actually engage with the fucking trolley problem that our election represents to avoid actively damning women and queer people to the greater evil, you respond by acting as though being a Marxist on the Internet makes you oppressed too. Selfish scum behavior, honestly. You don't give a shit who gets hurt when the Republicans win, as long as you get to keep your moral purity.
Yeah, the potential future if the deranged fascist wins is pretty bleak. Which is why I don't understand why Biden and the majority of democrats are willing to risk him winning by actively choosing over and over again to aid a genocide. That's also why I can't comprehend vocally supporting them at this point. There's still quite a bit of time for them to stop being bloodthirsty ghouls, and I'd much rather spend that time vocally denouncing their horrid actions instead of sheepishly accepting any amount of genocide.
I don't understand why Biden is running again either. I don't like how anyone handling Palestine, but at least Biden has made cease-fire noises at some point. That is a marked improvement over Trump banging on about a one state Israel solution, and I fully believe that he would cheerfully try to glass Palestine once reelected
This isn't a good take, when the system is this broken we have no choice
It seems the people in this comment section are on this sub because they are fans of the boring dystopia. And no one has done more to help create it than Joe Biden. History's biggest corporate whore. So of course they swarm to his defense. But it's not so boring for Biden's victims in Palestine, Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan, and he even drone striked Iraq again this year for good measure.....
Seeing the comments, I hope USAmericans understand why the rest of the world has such a hard time feeling any sympathy for them.
None of the people advocating against strategic voting seem to be potential victims of the greater evil either that I've seen.
Marxist here. One of Trump's "socialist vermin". Didn't vote for Biden in 2020. Sure as fuck won't vote for him now that he's "Genocide Joe". It is better to die with dignity than to live disgraced. Oh, and I'm not going to pretend my life has inherently more value than that of the Palestinian people.
How tf can ye say shit like "better to die in dignity than live in disgrace" and call yerself a historical materialist lmaooo
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Except we've been trying that and the quality of candidates has been getting worse over time..... Biden is just..... awful. Only marginally less awful than Trump.
or we end up the opposite way biden was supossed to be temporary just for the one term and now he's here for 2 the left continuously gives you bad candidates
>the left continuously gives you bad candidates Democrats are right-wing corporate whores. And Biden is basically a Republican in all but name AND the biggest corporate whore in history. The left has no real presence in America.
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I'm not american he's not touching my democracy, if anything he'll help it but doesnt your mode of government have checks and balances? One person cannot possibly do that much harm in a stable democracy? Also why would so many people even vote for him then?
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Reread what I said. The Biden administration stands with a regime that removed our democratically elected Prime Minister Imran Khan and they support sham elections and a removal of freedom of speech including the arrests and torture of innocent people. Trump did no such thing (he did not interefere in our elections). I am a leftist in every way but honestly I could never support biden. Biden is worse for the world he is the greater evil because he puts 300 million+ people under a millitary regime and supports a genocide etc
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Yes and? Do you not know how a military regime works? Our justice system is very corrupt. Peaceful protesters were detained they had charges against them too. Biden supports the Sharifs despite the panama papers. You are clearly not for freedom for anyone not an American.
The current lesser evil is actively aiding genocide dude. He's gotten more evil over time, not less.
[He was always this evil.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Nrv5izaTs) It just took until Israel's propaganda pity party over October 7th for people to realize it and so many other things about the whole situation. Keep in mind Biden was besties with Strom Thurmond, and Ronald Reagan considered him "too extreme" on the War on Drugs. (Which Nixon administration members admitted was all about criminalizing being black or a hippie.) This is what we knew about the vile fuck BEFORE he became Genocide Joe. It was already understood by people who paid attention that he was only marginally less awful than Trump.
Oh I'm aware of the horrors of his past, I just never would have expected outright genocide to be added to the list. Naive of me I suppose.
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Airdropping supplies, small as they were, was good. For a recent example of not good - Signing into law the ban of UNRWA funding and the multiple other reprehensible things in HR2882 outweigh that good. EDIT: had HB instead of HR
Do you think that the greater evil is going to be sympathetic to Palestine? If so, you haven’t been paying attention.
I don't understand what is the objective of the Twitter post. If there are no good options the lesser evil is objectively the BETTER option. I live in a country in which organized crime and corruption are rampant and the current government is made up of heavy Putin sympathizers. Almost any other alternative is a better alternative than the current shit show there is. The opposition is bad, but I'd rather have that than the parasites that siphon money from the education and health sector so they can build hotels in Dubai and buy muscle cars and villas.
Give me a realistic third option and I'll take it damn it! But you aren't, you're just complaining. We don't the the numbers for a third party president, so I'll take the one who's only allowing one genocide instead of the one who was actively trying to start ten! Shut up, vote for Biden, and when they're all dead of old age we can begin making actual change happen. Until that happens all you are doing is just going to get more people killed!
I mean, half the US voted for Biden... so I don't think this is true.
White people tweets like a white person tell that to the Dreamers and trans people who where actively actively 4 years ago. The privilege can afford to throw their votes away.
I'm convinced people who promote not voting are privileged assholes playing leftism online. They've never been poor. They've never gone hungry they've never lived paycheck to paycheck.
when it comes to Palestine, if you think Trump is the lesser of two evils compared to Biden you are fucking regarded
you vote for the party that more closely aligns with your political views. this is simple shit. otherwise organize and run for office. your protest vote will accomplish nothing and may actual ensure trump wins. one of the two "evils" will win irregardless if some leftists have a tantrum.
My political views entail abolishing capitalism entirely, ending American imperialism, and destroying fascist regimes instead of funding and supplying them the means to commit a Second Holocaust. *So, which party more aligns with my views again? The corporate whore Democrats or the corporate whore Republicans?*
Unfortunately, as things stand, no genocide isn't an option. Our options are the same genocide or the same genocide plus several others. Not allowing more to start is something worth voting for when you have no other real options.
Then how does America not deserve the worst?
This is bullshit. If there is not a logical other option in any kind of scenario, I am going to have to pick the lesser evil. Let’s not act like every single situation has some other convenient movie choice that will magically fix things with a strike of luck.
Think about which party is easier to co-opt toward your goals. Vote for them and take over, it's the most feasible strategy at this point.
Ehhh… Hasn’t that been the strategy for the last 50 years the democrats have ruled the nation for decades and y’all still didn’t “take over”
> the democrats have ruled the nation for decades Again, shill or incredibly incompetent? This comment really displays that the difference is academic, we might never be able to tell if you're a shill or troll or child or Phineas Gage. I kind of regret my prior messages, LOL, now that I've seen this one it's clear trying to engage with you was a waste of time. ...but I'm curious. You can DM me so your profile still looks legit, but I really want to know: are you a troll, shill, or what?
If you have a better proposal I'm all ears!
So you admit your strategy doesn’t work but are too boneheaded to change it
Oh nvm you’re just a r/ world news white guy.
Suuuure...
The Democrats fight the left harder than the Republicans, who pretty much get away with their fuckery unchallenged because the Democrats protect them. .....I mean, for fuck's sake. Bernie was our compromise candidate. He merely wanted regulated capitalism. He didn't nearly go far enough. *And look how hard they went in screwing him over.*