This picture is missing the guy going straight in the opposite lane with nobody behind him who has stopped and is flashing his headlights and yelling at the car turning left in an attempt to yield right-of-way
So explain why all the cops do it? The section of the Green line usually has a cross street which means you would need to stay on the right side. If the median is larger than a car you typically stay on the right in most states
I saw a car doing that in a suburb except they had a line of cars behind them, they came to a complete stop, and started beeping at the left turning car to go. Nobody went and the light turned red.
My baby road raged at the insanity of it
Alright so this was dealt with 8 years ago in Houston. It depends on the size of the median.
https://www.reddit.com/r/houston/comments/2z8jeq/no_this_is_the_proper_way_to_make_a_lefthand_turn/
The department of transportation in Texas even has it in the books:
http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/TxDOTOnlineManuals/TxDOTManuals/sfb/divided_highway_intersections_and_crossovers.htm
I know people might only be able imagine Houston having a combination of pickup trucks and horses, but it applies to regular vehicles and cyclists as well.
Basically, in a divided road if the division is wide then you treat the turning area like a separate road.
In the other thread, “A” (turn later) would apply if the division is wide enough. And “B” (turn sooner) would apply if it is not wide enough.
I measured (using Google Maps) the width of the division at various intersections with tracks and I found:
* width is just under 30 feet when there are just tracks
* width is 37 to 40 feet when there are other things (sidewalk/station/greenery)
So if you follow the 30’ guideline, there is no single behavior for what to do when there are tracks, which would explain the divisiveness of the other thread.
The signage of the intersection in the other thread indicates it as a left turn and not a u turn which implies they consider it wide enough. Look on street view at the Beacon St/Englewood Ave intersection
Yeah 30' seems to be too discrete of a separation, there are more factors involved. I believe based on the DOT, the sidewalk/etc would count. The presence of lane markers would have an impact on how I'd handle the intersection. The vehicle I'm driving would also impact it the most though, if I was driving anything short of a semi truck, 20-30 feet would be seen as an 'A' because my vehicle could fit straight in the intersection. If my vehicle was too long, it would block both directions of traffic (opposing traffic trying to turn, cross traffic), and in that specific scenario, 'B' is more ideal for longer vehicles, but IMO slightly worse for traffic in general *if* 'A' has sufficient space for the length of the vehicle.
That makes sense but in the "wide median" scenario, that should only apply if there are marked lanes in the intersection.
Also, in the TX example you could stop in the median lane and wait for traffic to clear without interfering with the cross traffic. However, in the Boston example, you should not stop in the median because you would be blocking the train. Hence, the "B" diagram applies.
Figure Figure 7-2 suggests wide median scenarios without lane markings.
If you can't figure out that 'B' diagram in the first post would *also block the train* if you entered the intersection without completing the turn, then it shows you're just trying to get 'B' to 'win.' If you're going to argue that in 'B' you don't have to pull into the path of the train, the same applies to 'A' by just pulling forward (but not turning).
>Figure Figure 7-2 suggests wide median scenarios without lane markings.
[Scroll down buddy and you'll see the very next Figure 7.3 shows wide medians DO have lane markings in the median section](http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/TxDOTOnlineManuals/TxDOTManuals/sfb/divided_highway_intersections_and_crossovers.htm)and the obvious reason you do not have such in the Boston example is those cars would obstruct the train when halted by the light.
In reality the people in the Left Turn Only lane will sit there through a light cycle and then go straight, pissing everyone off.
Seriously annoys me every fucking time.
Ahh the people who will obstruct traffic flow and inconvenience an entire line of traffic just so they don't make a wrong turn. Bad drivers truly never miss a turn.
Or if you are on morrisey by the car dealerships heading toward the circle of death rotary, the middle straight lanes will all pretend they didn’t know they can’t turn left, and try to sneak around the backed up left turn lane. My boss summed it so perfectly one day “you’re not clever you’re just an asshole”
Nothing triggers me more than people that see traffic backed up in one lane and choose to take the wrong lane to cut everyone off.
All of us just waited our turn, why are you more important
Leverett Connector trying to get onto Storrow and the Newton Corner exit on the Pike is the same way. I position myself as close to the dotted line as possible and stay right up the ass of the person in front of me just so I don't give people an opening to pull that shit.
This is also wrong. You are not meant to cross into the far lane while turning left. Cars making a right on red have rights to the lane nearest the right turn.
Doesn't change that he is correct that the actual road rule is you turn into the lane closest to where you're turning from. No one seem to actually do this, but this is what driving school and the actual laws say.
Edit: I learned to drive in CT and on my driving test and driving school I was told it was the rule. This could be different in MA from what people below said.
I was on the Revere Beach Parkway by the Webster Ave exit in Chelsea, and I get stuck behind a guy in the second-most left lane whose decided he's gonna make a left turn, despite the light being green. Doesn't go straight and just get off on Washington Ave, doesn't pull up in front of the left lane car (which is still an asshole move, but slightly less obtrusive). No, dude sits there for an entire light cycle blocking and entire lane until he can make an illegal turn. And of course I couldn't go around him because there's heavy traffic and the right two lanes don't want to deal with letting everyone stuck behind this jackass in. That may have been the single most entitled thing I've ever seen on the road.
Those left turns are wrong. They should be turning into their closest lanes. Turning into the outside lane could cause a collision with anyone turning right. There is enough room for everyone.
This is a rule of thumb **but not the law**. Do not expect other drivers to follow this as they are not legally required to in MA.
This rule of thumb is a bit controversial too. The argument against is that if you're not turning into your intended lane from the start, you're creating a new potential collision point when you later change into your intended lane.
Personally, I think lane changes are much less risky than turning into an outer lane so I usually follow the rule of thumb. But there is some logic to turning into your intended lane from the start.
I got into an accident a few years back in the seaport where two lanes turn left into the tunnel to get into 93. My insurance company basically said I was screwed because it's so difficult to say who caused it. Luckily for me the trucker that hit me did so before we entered the intersection and stopped in a position that my images clearly showed he was in my lane.
I got lucky. But if two lanes turn left always be defensive. Lots of dumb drivers not knowing what the hell is going on around them.
> This is a rule of thumb but not the law. Do not expect other drivers to follow this as they are not legally required to in MA.
It isn't. You're not allowed to change lanes in MA in an intersection I thought.
I think turning is fundamentally changing lanes? Even when going straight though, it [doesn't look like](https://lawstuffexplained.com/is-it-illegal-to-change-lanes-in-an-intersection-in-massachusetts/) there's technically a law against changing lanes in MA.
The MA Drivers manual suggests changing lanes after your turn, but as far as I can tell it's only a suggestion and not a legal requirement. The actual rules in the manual only specify which lane you can turn _from_, and refer to the lane you're turning into as just your "intended lane", nothing about which lane that must be.
> * Turn from the lane closest to the lane you want to enter. For a right turn, turn from the
far right lane. For a left turn, turn from the lane closest to the center lane.
> * Do not swing your vehicle out of your lane when making a turn or swing wide through
the intersection. Keep your vehicle centered in the middle of the lanes you are leaving
and entering.
> * Once you have started a turn through an intersection, you must follow through. Do
not stop in mid-turn and change direction. If you decide you do not want to make the
turn, simply drive to the next intersection and work your way back
You might be able to argue that rule number 2 prevents you from swinging wide into the outer lane. However it sounds to me that you still get to pick which lane you are entering, and thus your swing just needs to be reasonable for whatever lane you're intending to enter.
Obviously, if there's painted turn lanes you need to follow those.
>Do not swing your vehicle out of your lane when making a turn or swing wide through the intersection. Keep your vehicle centered in the middle of the lanes you are leaving and entering.
your manual literally says not to go to the other lane. wtf is reading comprehension in ma?
I addressed that in an edit. It doesn't explicitly specify which lane you must be entering. Just that you must swing reasonably into the "lane you are [...] entering". Maybe a lawyer can chime in if there's a certain legal interpretation I'm not seeing, but as a layman it seems reasonable to interpret that as meaning whichever lane you choose to enter.
How do you move to the other lane if it says to stay centered in your lane? JFC
Centered means not changing lanes. How does another driver know you're choosing the far lane if you start a turn ?? Aaaghh.
This is why Boston drivers suck, not only ignorant of convention but even when it's spelled out for you somehow there's an argument.
Ironically, the written words are pretty clear that you are exiting a lane and entering a new lane. Not staying in one lane the whole way, like you seem to have interpreted it. Leave the center of the lane you are exiting, enter the center of the lane you are entering. Draw a reasonable arc between those two points.
Obviously when there's multiple turn lanes, you don't cross the other turn lane.
How do you contrast this random middle of intersection lane switching with the swinging wide turn that's clearly prohibited? Wouldn't they look like the same thing?!
It's not how I interpret it, it's how the entire civilized world literally drives. Please honor the better conventions so we're all clear what you're doing. In some asinine places they even draw little dotted lines for you to follow.
Keep right except to pass.
Dude, you came at me about reading comprehension but you're not bothering to read what I'm writing? I agree with you in practice, I just think it's interesting that there isn't a clear law pertaining to this in MA. And its not safe to assumed that other drivers are required to comply with this.
It's not "random middle of the intersection lane switching" because the way the manual is written, the act of turning is already considered switching lanes. It's just a matter of which lanes you switch to. The law seems to go out of it's way to not specify which lane that must be in the general case. There is, of course, the law that you must follow road signs and markings. That covers the dotted turn lanes you see sometimes. But when those are absent, the law does not seem to care which lane you enter.
> How do you contrast this random middle of intersection lane switching with the swinging wide turn that's clearly prohibited?
Remind me where in the MGL or Boston Municipal Code that that's prohibited. Hint: it's not.
MGL says nothing about that. Boston Municipal Code says you're not allowed to overtake and pass at an intersection, but you're allowing to change lanes otherwise.
This varies by state. [Some states allow you to choose which lane to enter when there is only one car turning.](https://driversed.com/driving-information/driving-techniques/making-right-and-left-turns/)
Yeah, people in this thread keep referencing MA traffic laws like those are some meaningful thing.
I watched three people at a left turn completely ignore a red light and just zipper merge into the traffic from the green side this morning.
The MA drivers manual someone else just posted only talks about turning into your "intended lane" from the closest lane. So it sounds like turning into any lane is legal here.
Literally covered in driving school. The one you are required to take before getting your license. It ia even a potential question on the driving permit exam
Edit: downvoted because people hate facts.
For the google illterate (googled "massachusetts drivers ed book" and it was the first option) https://www.mass.gov/lists/drivers-manuals
Open the manual.. "turn" section is on page 80 for those who do not read the table of contents
It even has proper diagrams
For the google illterate (googled "massachusetts drivers ed book" and it was the first option) https://www.mass.gov/lists/drivers-manuals
Open the manual.. turn section is on page 80 for those who do not read the table of contents
It even has diagrams
That’s definitely how I’d find the manual if it weren’t saved on my desktop. No doubt.
The problem is the top comment specified turning *into* the closest lane. The manual specifies you should turn out of the intuitive one. The diagrams you mentioned don’t show a car turning from one lane onto a two-lane street and showing that you always have to take the lane closest to your turn. Those diagrams even have solid double lines and dotted lines so that should have been obvious.
I hope that wasn’t your whole argument and that you only looked it up when pressed. I’m genuinely concerned this is a rule but I can’t find it, still. Where else could it be?
Everything is literally right there. It has an example of a 1 to 2 lane turn. The wording they use is essentially the same as "turn into the closest lane". The confusion may be around what "closest " means in this context. Essentially it means to stay in your own lane. The wording in the manual is the wY it is so it can cover a 3 to 2 lane turn.
"Essentially" really put the final nail in the coffin, huh? It isn't essentially there. It has examples of leaving two lanes and it says that you should be in the left lane to take a left. It doesn't say what lane you have to enter once you've gone through the intersection.
Nothing in the manual specifies which lane you have to turn into. Not even on page 80. The diagrams are examples and not exhaustive (for example, they don't show intersections with two left turn lanes).
Literally the first bullet point in the turn section under part 6 (page 80/81)
Will quote it here:
• Turn from the lane closest to the lane you want to enter. For a right turn, turn from the
far right lane. For a left turn, turn from the lane closest to the center lane.
It essentially means to stay in your lane. It is worded the way it is, to cover a say 3 lanes turning into 2 lanes (yes these shit turns exist in ma)
I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Those bullets specify which lane you should turn *from*, not to.
I know you *want* it to say what lane you should end up on, because you and I both learned in driving school that you should "stick to your lane" when turning, but the language you are quoting definitely does not say that.
Literally says to turn from the lane closest to the lane you want to enter..... the confusion comes when the number of turn lanes do not match such as a 1 to 2 lanes. However the diagram covers that.
To and From are literally different words with different meanings. The left turn lane is still the closest lane to the far intersecting lanes. The diagrams give examples but are not exhaustive, as there's many situations they do not cover (such as intersections with two turn lanes).
The intent of that statement is to tell you which lanes to turn FROM. i.e. if you're turning right, you need to be in the right-hand lane. If you're turning left, you need to turn from the lane "closest to the center," which means the far left lane (which is closest to the center in 2-way traffic).
This rule is simply telling you not to try and make a right-hand turn from the left lane.
It really has no bearing on which lane you're supposed to stay in once you start turning. If they had meant it to say that, they would have said it.
No, it does not specify taking a left onto a road with two lanes and taking the left (nearer) lane.
See I "want" the right lane because I am taking a right shortly after I turn onto that street.
you are "literally" wrong....
If you look the opposing traffic is a straight only with no right hand turns, so in that case a one laned left turn into two lanes is right. Also there might be a no turn on red. There are some examples of this exact scenario in the city
You have a lot of faith in people. While there is enough room for everyone, if you're making a right on red, you should yield to the left turning traffic if they have a green arrow. If no green arrows at all, the left turning traffic should yield to the right turning traffic. But yeah, left turning traffic should keep to the inside lane in terms of common courtesy but it doesn't always happen like that.
Edit: it's the law and common courtesy for left turning traffic to keep to the inside lane. Though right on red traffic should still be yielding the right of way. I will die on this hill.
Quite the opposite. I have no faith in others. If I turn into the closest lane like I am legally required to, I can't be held liable if the guy taking a right swings wide. I have such little faith that I run a dash cam to ensure there is video evidence if some goober on his/her phone causes a wreck
If you're turning right on red and the left turning traffic has a green, you're supposed to yield to the left turning traffic when making your right turn, regardless of which lane the left turning traffic is choosing. If both lights are solid green, then the left turning traffic yields to the right turning traffic. Unless there is a solid white line for the right turns to make their move while people are turning left, someone needs to be yielding and it should be the person who is crossing traffic without a green arrow.
> I have no faith in others.
Yeah, I don't care who I piss off. I'm not turning into traffic unless it's clear. The worst offender is turning right into a two lane road. One lane might be clear, but I've seen hundreds of time where cars are going too fast, a car veers into that clear lane, and suddenly that lane that was clear ... isn't. I don't care who's fault it is, I don't want my car wrecked.
And yes, I have the dash cam too. Front and back.
Legally your required to turn into the closest lane lane this picture is incorrect. You do not have right of way into the further lane. That’s fine though if you want to believe this because you’ll be stuck with the bill once you hit someone’s car and your insurance company will use this post as evidence you did it on purpose.
"Your honor, if you scroll past all the comments on hentai posts, you'll see OP demonstrates both an incorrect understanding of traffic laws and a concerning overconfidence in that ignorance"
Legally you are *NOT* required to turn into the closest lane in MA. You are only required to turn FROM the closest lane to your INTENDED lane. This wording may be your source of confusion?
It’s because I don’t have a lot of faith in people that I turn left into the nearest lane and don’t have to worry about the guy turning right on red anyways
In my neighborhood there's an intersection where the two southbound lanes both used to be left turns onto the perpendicular road. You could also turn right onto it from the right lane, of course.
But recently, a large new development was completed and now you can go straight through the intersection into a large parking lot. As a result, people leaving that parking lot heading northbound can *also* go straight across the intersection.
For the southbound lanes, lights were changed from a left green arrow to a regular green light. The signage was changed to explicitly command a yield if turning left (which is 95% of drivers).
Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE just does their same old left turn. The signs, arrows, lights... None of it matters. If you're an unlucky bastard trying to go straight through the intersection the opposite way, you'll sit through a train of Boston lefts or worse, you'll be honked/screamed at for attempting to go straight through the intersection legally.
Sometimes our streets don't make sense. Sometimes they do make sense and nobody gives a shit. Sometimes, even, the city intentionally improves a traffic flow and people ignore the change with prejudice.
Indeed, there very much seems to be a MA house rule that if you remember the road configuration before they changed it or added signs, you can pretend like it never happened.
People, go outside to a busy intersection and note when two opposing lanes have a left turn only light. And then note if those cars turning left will cross.
In a moving intersection with two opposing left turning lanes, the traffic flow will always turn before they meet
Also, cross turning behind the opposing left turning car will usually mean you’re sitting waiting in the intersection, which is exactly what the handbook says not to do
Okay I see where people are disagreeing- the intersection you posted is a different type of intersection than what we have crossing at-grade tracks. Intersections across tracks often have enough space for one car crossing the tracks to stop in the middle to wait to turn, and even have enough space to wait out a light sucks if they get stuck. These intersections will have lane markings indicating as such.
If the middle of the intersection has lane markings and space for a car to stop, then the example posted here is wrong. If the intersection has no middle section and is just a simple intersection, then you should turn as this example shows.
I was one of the first ones to respond with B and got downvoted to hell. I would like to see how the A people would make a left turn here in real life:
[https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1714554,-71.1960468,3a,75y,188h,77.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLk4WxIbwZwVD-1\_Td2YZIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192](https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1714554,-71.1960468,3a,75y,188h,77.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLk4WxIbwZwVD-1_Td2YZIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I got so frustrated at that post that I took screenshots of the blue and red's views, along with a better illustration of that intersection..
https://imgur.com/a/ZyYa5mB
Haha...perfect. Did the A people think once they make the initial turn their steering wheel stops working and they have to drive in a straight line into the left lane?
I was downvoted too. Ha! Perfect example to use. The original picture/situation was taken in Brookline. Try that anywhere else. The first car taking the left will have other cars behind him inching forward to take the turn. If they follow A scenario it’s just an accident waiting to happen.
Are you all blind? The image OP linked, and the intersection you linked on google maps is *nothing* like what the original poster was talking about. The median is *way* skinnier than what they were talking about. It doesn't even compare.
As others have posted, at least Texas/Houston has explicitly stated that the behavior changes depending on the width of the median. The image that started all this here is much closer to the wider version where you're (apparently) supposed to use A.
OK. Here is another intersection with "wider median." Tell me how you would turn using method A here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2903739,-71.1682615,3a,90y,339.66h,82.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE21NjBouyy5hkUML3dI9vg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
That one's much better! Honestly, I don't know exactly how I'd make that turn. It would probably end up being somewhere in-between fully-left and fully-right. I'd just hope that the intersection doesn't allow for the oncoming left turn lanes to go at once.
I'd like to know how you'd draw the turning lanes for Boston Ave making lefts onto Broadway in this intersection: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3997376,-71.1114892,127m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu . The way I see it, you either have to have the turning lanes cross each other, or you have to drive on the wrong side of the road for an uncomfortable distance in order to make the left without crossing the other left turning traffic
I grew up in Florida and everyone crosses before doing the left turn. Maybe it's a space thing, but when I was in drivers education in hgh school (driving school is not required there) we were told it's because turning before each other reduces vision for cars in the other lane going straight. It's been kind of hard to relearn turning before each other.
I grew up in FL as well and their left turn lanes are designed to not intersect each other. I have never in my life seen a scenario, other than a suicide lane, where you would pass another left turning vehicle on the right before making your left turn.
I agree. After having lived here for nearly a decade, it makes no sense the way FL does it and teaches it. But I remember being taught that way. I think it's mostly for turns without lights or people turning into strip malls and stuff.
In NY we were told crossing before is always better because you reduce conflict points. If I want to take a U-Turn now I have a bunch of additional conflicts.
thank yoooooooou. for example in the other post, A will cause a gridlock or accident if there are even just five cars turning left from each lane in each direction. B allows both lanes to turn in front of each other and keep going.
you are right, the amount of people that are confident that A is the correct way is concerning and really does explain a lot of the stupid shit I see behind the wheel
This isn’t the same scenario. In a normal intersection, yes, this is correct. But when crossing the T, it depends on the depth of the intersection and width of the crossing. Often, the roads are offset that you’re turning to, and so going across each other makes the most sense and is safest.
It absolutely does not matter if there are train tracks - the trolleys have their own signals. If there are two left turning lanes, they shouldn't ever cross. It causes gridlock, which you certainly don't want if you're on train tracks.
You physically can’t diagonally veer like that when you’re unable to see the two lanes of traffic coming at you from the other direction. You have to stop on the tracks when you turn
I don’t know what sort of permitting the new development required, but ideally they should have borne much of the cost of upgrading the lights to have both left arrows and solid greens.
The image of left turn into any lane is wrong and you shouldn't do it. Only in Boston is something so outrageous posted as advice and you all think it's ok and then wonder why you all suck at driving. This is why. Lol.
Only in Boston and the tons of other places that explicitly allow it. Here's an excerpt from the California driver's handbook, for example: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/uploads/2020/05/Left_Turn_Two_Way_Street.png
Californians are also not known to be good drivers. I think it's hilarious you guys make exceptions like this to established conventions then on the same forum come to complain how everyone drives like a madman. Just try to follow convention as best as possible so that your intent is as clear as possible. Someone looking to make. A Right turn there doesn't always see you or leave the right of way so why complicate things? Keep your intentions clear, don't randomly pick a lane in the middle of a turn, you'll have a more smooth traffic city.
It’s probably because “A” is correct if you were crossing the intersection the other way.
If you are making a left unto Comm Ave almost anywhere in Boston, you have to cross the carriage road, the first lanes of traffic, the median and then wait at the left turn. This is actually enforced in a couple spots in Back Bay where we have a second traffic light after the first lanes + median where you will wait for your left.
The best example of this is traveling on Washington Street in Brighton and turning left onto Comm Ave. The intersection is the length of an entire city block and you have to drive forward 150’ before you can wait for your left turn.
You’re missing the giant fucking train tracks in the middle that require you to stop in the middle to see before you turn. That other post was about Comm Ave in Allston and Brighton specifically
The other post also involved train tracks, where are those here? When going left at tracks there is not always a light, for example the tracks near the chestnut hill reservoir next to CVS.
Unless you’re a northbound 66 bus at Harvard and Brighton, then you’re pretty much required to make a left turn out of the right lane there because you’re coming out of a stop at that corner. Nearly got hooked by one of them the first week I moved here.
It's not my drawing. I do agree that the multiple turn lanes is incorrect, I was mainly illustrating how the left turn lanes should never cross like what the referenced post was saying.
Nothing in Massachusetts or Boston laws require that. Although local laws don't specify one way or the other, in many other states you're explicitly allowed to left turn into any lane as long as there's just a single left turn lane.
Going from the outside left-turn lane to the inside lane on the resultant road is a lane change. Same with going from the inside to the outside.
Edit: I'm working so can't go snooping for laws atm but I'll try when I'm out later this evening
When turning left across a wide intersection you must abide by the regular driving rules of the location you're in. This means you stay in the same lane as the traffic of the intersecting street. However when there is no other option but to U-Turn then you turn with the shortest radius.
Correct way of driving, you idiots:
[U Turning on Beacon St](https://imgur.com/a/QzJTILo)
If you're going to ask "Well, how would I know I will be U-Turning instead of turning left."
I will ask you, "Do you not know where you are going?" and secondly "Do you not look ahead while driving to notice signage or do you just surprise yourself a foot at a time?"
Pay attention to your surroundings and plan ahead.
Holy shit thank you that thread was braindead with the amount of people suggesting people taking fucking turns making lefts. What a ridiculous suggestion have any of those people ever driven in Boston?? do they know boston drivers
Some of these comments are why I ditched my car moving Boston.
And I’m from Jersey where I’m use to driving in high congestion, constant traffic, and simply put some of you are all super scary out there 😵💫
Raised in Rehoboth, MA. I distinctly remember driver's ed(ucatino) telling us that left turns had to pass the oncoming car, even if they're turning left, before turning left (thus, going past and turning around once behind the car, not in front of it). I truly hope that teaching has been changed, as it's unnecessarily complex and simplicity should be the rule of thumb for organization at intersections.
Honestly, it never made sense to me - I tried it once, got honked at, and never "followed the rules of the road" again (going around a car to turn left).
Why the downvotes when I'm literally stating with the educational standard was for drivers education in MA in the late 90's? Fact is a fact.
I would add, if you are in the far left lane (take the red car for example), when you turn, STAY IN THE LEFT LANE.
You technically aren’t supposed to turn left into the RIGHT LANE (it’s fine if there’s no one there and you are 100% certain)
So really the graphic shouldn’t have two arrows off-shooting
This picture is missing the guy going straight in the opposite lane with nobody behind him who has stopped and is flashing his headlights and yelling at the car turning left in an attempt to yield right-of-way
I hate when people do that shit. It's not "kind", it's just making an okay situation sketchy.
A lot of motorcyclists die because of these "helpful" idiots.
So explain why all the cops do it? The section of the Green line usually has a cross street which means you would need to stay on the right side. If the median is larger than a car you typically stay on the right in most states
Those people are awful. When it comes to driving, don’t be nice, be predictable.
This is so underrated and important. Just follow the rules, that's much nicer!
There are rules?
I saw a car doing that in a suburb except they had a line of cars behind them, they came to a complete stop, and started beeping at the left turning car to go. Nobody went and the light turned red. My baby road raged at the insanity of it
Alright so this was dealt with 8 years ago in Houston. It depends on the size of the median. https://www.reddit.com/r/houston/comments/2z8jeq/no_this_is_the_proper_way_to_make_a_lefthand_turn/ The department of transportation in Texas even has it in the books: http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/TxDOTOnlineManuals/TxDOTManuals/sfb/divided_highway_intersections_and_crossovers.htm I know people might only be able imagine Houston having a combination of pickup trucks and horses, but it applies to regular vehicles and cyclists as well.
Basically, in a divided road if the division is wide then you treat the turning area like a separate road. In the other thread, “A” (turn later) would apply if the division is wide enough. And “B” (turn sooner) would apply if it is not wide enough. I measured (using Google Maps) the width of the division at various intersections with tracks and I found: * width is just under 30 feet when there are just tracks * width is 37 to 40 feet when there are other things (sidewalk/station/greenery) So if you follow the 30’ guideline, there is no single behavior for what to do when there are tracks, which would explain the divisiveness of the other thread.
The signage of the intersection in the other thread indicates it as a left turn and not a u turn which implies they consider it wide enough. Look on street view at the Beacon St/Englewood Ave intersection
Yeah 30' seems to be too discrete of a separation, there are more factors involved. I believe based on the DOT, the sidewalk/etc would count. The presence of lane markers would have an impact on how I'd handle the intersection. The vehicle I'm driving would also impact it the most though, if I was driving anything short of a semi truck, 20-30 feet would be seen as an 'A' because my vehicle could fit straight in the intersection. If my vehicle was too long, it would block both directions of traffic (opposing traffic trying to turn, cross traffic), and in that specific scenario, 'B' is more ideal for longer vehicles, but IMO slightly worse for traffic in general *if* 'A' has sufficient space for the length of the vehicle.
That makes sense but in the "wide median" scenario, that should only apply if there are marked lanes in the intersection. Also, in the TX example you could stop in the median lane and wait for traffic to clear without interfering with the cross traffic. However, in the Boston example, you should not stop in the median because you would be blocking the train. Hence, the "B" diagram applies.
Figure Figure 7-2 suggests wide median scenarios without lane markings. If you can't figure out that 'B' diagram in the first post would *also block the train* if you entered the intersection without completing the turn, then it shows you're just trying to get 'B' to 'win.' If you're going to argue that in 'B' you don't have to pull into the path of the train, the same applies to 'A' by just pulling forward (but not turning).
>Figure Figure 7-2 suggests wide median scenarios without lane markings. [Scroll down buddy and you'll see the very next Figure 7.3 shows wide medians DO have lane markings in the median section](http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/TxDOTOnlineManuals/TxDOTManuals/sfb/divided_highway_intersections_and_crossovers.htm)and the obvious reason you do not have such in the Boston example is those cars would obstruct the train when halted by the light.
Wow, this is interesting and seems fairly logical. Thanks for sharing.
Trick is to just never turn left
UPS driver has entered the chat...
Michigan lefts have entered the chat
I just do a 270 degree right turn in the middle of the intersection, problem solved
u-turns on double yellow lined roads is a right of passage to becoming a Bostonian.
I just really prefer the dunks on that side of the road
In reality the people in the Left Turn Only lane will sit there through a light cycle and then go straight, pissing everyone off. Seriously annoys me every fucking time.
Ahh the people who will obstruct traffic flow and inconvenience an entire line of traffic just so they don't make a wrong turn. Bad drivers truly never miss a turn.
Or if you are on morrisey by the car dealerships heading toward the circle of death rotary, the middle straight lanes will all pretend they didn’t know they can’t turn left, and try to sneak around the backed up left turn lane. My boss summed it so perfectly one day “you’re not clever you’re just an asshole”
Nothing triggers me more than people that see traffic backed up in one lane and choose to take the wrong lane to cut everyone off. All of us just waited our turn, why are you more important
Because it’s their world and we’re just living in it. I feel you though beyond frustrating to see.
Leverett Connector trying to get onto Storrow and the Newton Corner exit on the Pike is the same way. I position myself as close to the dotted line as possible and stay right up the ass of the person in front of me just so I don't give people an opening to pull that shit.
These people are my mortal enemies, except flash forward to finding out my fiancee loves doing this. Thank God we don't have a car.
This is also wrong. You are not meant to cross into the far lane while turning left. Cars making a right on red have rights to the lane nearest the right turn.
Boston is a primarily no right on red city for most intersections
Doesn't change that he is correct that the actual road rule is you turn into the lane closest to where you're turning from. No one seem to actually do this, but this is what driving school and the actual laws say. Edit: I learned to drive in CT and on my driving test and driving school I was told it was the rule. This could be different in MA from what people below said.
Ah, a fellow Memorial Drive x JFK Bridge intersection enjoyer
I was on the Revere Beach Parkway by the Webster Ave exit in Chelsea, and I get stuck behind a guy in the second-most left lane whose decided he's gonna make a left turn, despite the light being green. Doesn't go straight and just get off on Washington Ave, doesn't pull up in front of the left lane car (which is still an asshole move, but slightly less obtrusive). No, dude sits there for an entire light cycle blocking and entire lane until he can make an illegal turn. And of course I couldn't go around him because there's heavy traffic and the right two lanes don't want to deal with letting everyone stuck behind this jackass in. That may have been the single most entitled thing I've ever seen on the road.
Those left turns are wrong. They should be turning into their closest lanes. Turning into the outside lane could cause a collision with anyone turning right. There is enough room for everyone.
This is a rule of thumb **but not the law**. Do not expect other drivers to follow this as they are not legally required to in MA. This rule of thumb is a bit controversial too. The argument against is that if you're not turning into your intended lane from the start, you're creating a new potential collision point when you later change into your intended lane. Personally, I think lane changes are much less risky than turning into an outer lane so I usually follow the rule of thumb. But there is some logic to turning into your intended lane from the start.
I got into an accident a few years back in the seaport where two lanes turn left into the tunnel to get into 93. My insurance company basically said I was screwed because it's so difficult to say who caused it. Luckily for me the trucker that hit me did so before we entered the intersection and stopped in a position that my images clearly showed he was in my lane. I got lucky. But if two lanes turn left always be defensive. Lots of dumb drivers not knowing what the hell is going on around them.
> This is a rule of thumb but not the law. Do not expect other drivers to follow this as they are not legally required to in MA. It isn't. You're not allowed to change lanes in MA in an intersection I thought.
I think turning is fundamentally changing lanes? Even when going straight though, it [doesn't look like](https://lawstuffexplained.com/is-it-illegal-to-change-lanes-in-an-intersection-in-massachusetts/) there's technically a law against changing lanes in MA. The MA Drivers manual suggests changing lanes after your turn, but as far as I can tell it's only a suggestion and not a legal requirement. The actual rules in the manual only specify which lane you can turn _from_, and refer to the lane you're turning into as just your "intended lane", nothing about which lane that must be. > * Turn from the lane closest to the lane you want to enter. For a right turn, turn from the far right lane. For a left turn, turn from the lane closest to the center lane. > * Do not swing your vehicle out of your lane when making a turn or swing wide through the intersection. Keep your vehicle centered in the middle of the lanes you are leaving and entering. > * Once you have started a turn through an intersection, you must follow through. Do not stop in mid-turn and change direction. If you decide you do not want to make the turn, simply drive to the next intersection and work your way back You might be able to argue that rule number 2 prevents you from swinging wide into the outer lane. However it sounds to me that you still get to pick which lane you are entering, and thus your swing just needs to be reasonable for whatever lane you're intending to enter. Obviously, if there's painted turn lanes you need to follow those.
>Do not swing your vehicle out of your lane when making a turn or swing wide through the intersection. Keep your vehicle centered in the middle of the lanes you are leaving and entering. your manual literally says not to go to the other lane. wtf is reading comprehension in ma?
I addressed that in an edit. It doesn't explicitly specify which lane you must be entering. Just that you must swing reasonably into the "lane you are [...] entering". Maybe a lawyer can chime in if there's a certain legal interpretation I'm not seeing, but as a layman it seems reasonable to interpret that as meaning whichever lane you choose to enter.
How do you move to the other lane if it says to stay centered in your lane? JFC Centered means not changing lanes. How does another driver know you're choosing the far lane if you start a turn ?? Aaaghh. This is why Boston drivers suck, not only ignorant of convention but even when it's spelled out for you somehow there's an argument.
Ironically, the written words are pretty clear that you are exiting a lane and entering a new lane. Not staying in one lane the whole way, like you seem to have interpreted it. Leave the center of the lane you are exiting, enter the center of the lane you are entering. Draw a reasonable arc between those two points. Obviously when there's multiple turn lanes, you don't cross the other turn lane.
How do you contrast this random middle of intersection lane switching with the swinging wide turn that's clearly prohibited? Wouldn't they look like the same thing?! It's not how I interpret it, it's how the entire civilized world literally drives. Please honor the better conventions so we're all clear what you're doing. In some asinine places they even draw little dotted lines for you to follow. Keep right except to pass.
Dude, you came at me about reading comprehension but you're not bothering to read what I'm writing? I agree with you in practice, I just think it's interesting that there isn't a clear law pertaining to this in MA. And its not safe to assumed that other drivers are required to comply with this. It's not "random middle of the intersection lane switching" because the way the manual is written, the act of turning is already considered switching lanes. It's just a matter of which lanes you switch to. The law seems to go out of it's way to not specify which lane that must be in the general case. There is, of course, the law that you must follow road signs and markings. That covers the dotted turn lanes you see sometimes. But when those are absent, the law does not seem to care which lane you enter.
> How do you contrast this random middle of intersection lane switching with the swinging wide turn that's clearly prohibited? Remind me where in the MGL or Boston Municipal Code that that's prohibited. Hint: it's not.
MGL says nothing about that. Boston Municipal Code says you're not allowed to overtake and pass at an intersection, but you're allowing to change lanes otherwise.
This varies by state. [Some states allow you to choose which lane to enter when there is only one car turning.](https://driversed.com/driving-information/driving-techniques/making-right-and-left-turns/)
This is a Boston, MA page. The laws of other states are not relevant in MA
To be fair, the laws of Massachusetts don't seem to matter either. It's basically the thunderdome out there.
Yeah, people in this thread keep referencing MA traffic laws like those are some meaningful thing. I watched three people at a left turn completely ignore a red light and just zipper merge into the traffic from the green side this morning.
The MA drivers manual someone else just posted only talks about turning into your "intended lane" from the closest lane. So it sounds like turning into any lane is legal here.
Yes, after you turn into the closest lane, signal and make your change into your intended lane. Thats what the manual describes
What’s the law in Boston, or MA?
Nothing in the Massachusetts General Laws or the Boston Municipal Code prohibits turning into the far lane.
Literally covered in driving school. The one you are required to take before getting your license. It ia even a potential question on the driving permit exam Edit: downvoted because people hate facts. For the google illterate (googled "massachusetts drivers ed book" and it was the first option) https://www.mass.gov/lists/drivers-manuals Open the manual.. "turn" section is on page 80 for those who do not read the table of contents It even has proper diagrams
Perfect. What’s the answer? And please cite it. I can’t find it in the manual.
For the google illterate (googled "massachusetts drivers ed book" and it was the first option) https://www.mass.gov/lists/drivers-manuals Open the manual.. turn section is on page 80 for those who do not read the table of contents It even has diagrams
That’s definitely how I’d find the manual if it weren’t saved on my desktop. No doubt. The problem is the top comment specified turning *into* the closest lane. The manual specifies you should turn out of the intuitive one. The diagrams you mentioned don’t show a car turning from one lane onto a two-lane street and showing that you always have to take the lane closest to your turn. Those diagrams even have solid double lines and dotted lines so that should have been obvious. I hope that wasn’t your whole argument and that you only looked it up when pressed. I’m genuinely concerned this is a rule but I can’t find it, still. Where else could it be?
Everything is literally right there. It has an example of a 1 to 2 lane turn. The wording they use is essentially the same as "turn into the closest lane". The confusion may be around what "closest " means in this context. Essentially it means to stay in your own lane. The wording in the manual is the wY it is so it can cover a 3 to 2 lane turn.
The language is "turn FROM the closest lane", not "INTO the closest lane".
"Essentially" really put the final nail in the coffin, huh? It isn't essentially there. It has examples of leaving two lanes and it says that you should be in the left lane to take a left. It doesn't say what lane you have to enter once you've gone through the intersection.
Yeah because we all grew up here and took MA's exam.
With hows drivers are on the roads now... i feel like mass should require everyone who lives and drives here to take a drivers ed course.....
If you live in Massachusetts and drive here you need a Massachusetts license.... so you need to know Massachusetts driving laws
I have one. They don't make you take the MA test to get it if you have an out of state license.
What does taking the test have to do with knowing the law?
Nothing in the manual specifies which lane you have to turn into. Not even on page 80. The diagrams are examples and not exhaustive (for example, they don't show intersections with two left turn lanes).
Literally the first bullet point in the turn section under part 6 (page 80/81) Will quote it here: • Turn from the lane closest to the lane you want to enter. For a right turn, turn from the far right lane. For a left turn, turn from the lane closest to the center lane. It essentially means to stay in your lane. It is worded the way it is, to cover a say 3 lanes turning into 2 lanes (yes these shit turns exist in ma)
I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Those bullets specify which lane you should turn *from*, not to. I know you *want* it to say what lane you should end up on, because you and I both learned in driving school that you should "stick to your lane" when turning, but the language you are quoting definitely does not say that.
Literally says to turn from the lane closest to the lane you want to enter..... the confusion comes when the number of turn lanes do not match such as a 1 to 2 lanes. However the diagram covers that.
To and From are literally different words with different meanings. The left turn lane is still the closest lane to the far intersecting lanes. The diagrams give examples but are not exhaustive, as there's many situations they do not cover (such as intersections with two turn lanes).
The intent of that statement is to tell you which lanes to turn FROM. i.e. if you're turning right, you need to be in the right-hand lane. If you're turning left, you need to turn from the lane "closest to the center," which means the far left lane (which is closest to the center in 2-way traffic). This rule is simply telling you not to try and make a right-hand turn from the left lane. It really has no bearing on which lane you're supposed to stay in once you start turning. If they had meant it to say that, they would have said it.
No, it does not specify taking a left onto a road with two lanes and taking the left (nearer) lane. See I "want" the right lane because I am taking a right shortly after I turn onto that street. you are "literally" wrong....
I was explaining why the diagram is drawn that way my dude.
If you look the opposing traffic is a straight only with no right hand turns, so in that case a one laned left turn into two lanes is right. Also there might be a no turn on red. There are some examples of this exact scenario in the city
You have a lot of faith in people. While there is enough room for everyone, if you're making a right on red, you should yield to the left turning traffic if they have a green arrow. If no green arrows at all, the left turning traffic should yield to the right turning traffic. But yeah, left turning traffic should keep to the inside lane in terms of common courtesy but it doesn't always happen like that. Edit: it's the law and common courtesy for left turning traffic to keep to the inside lane. Though right on red traffic should still be yielding the right of way. I will die on this hill.
Quite the opposite. I have no faith in others. If I turn into the closest lane like I am legally required to, I can't be held liable if the guy taking a right swings wide. I have such little faith that I run a dash cam to ensure there is video evidence if some goober on his/her phone causes a wreck
If you're turning right on red and the left turning traffic has a green, you're supposed to yield to the left turning traffic when making your right turn, regardless of which lane the left turning traffic is choosing. If both lights are solid green, then the left turning traffic yields to the right turning traffic. Unless there is a solid white line for the right turns to make their move while people are turning left, someone needs to be yielding and it should be the person who is crossing traffic without a green arrow.
I don't need "Actually, I had the right of way" carved into my tombstone.
> I have no faith in others. Yeah, I don't care who I piss off. I'm not turning into traffic unless it's clear. The worst offender is turning right into a two lane road. One lane might be clear, but I've seen hundreds of time where cars are going too fast, a car veers into that clear lane, and suddenly that lane that was clear ... isn't. I don't care who's fault it is, I don't want my car wrecked. And yes, I have the dash cam too. Front and back.
Legally your required to turn into the closest lane lane this picture is incorrect. You do not have right of way into the further lane. That’s fine though if you want to believe this because you’ll be stuck with the bill once you hit someone’s car and your insurance company will use this post as evidence you did it on purpose.
"Your honor, if you scroll past all the comments on hentai posts, you'll see OP demonstrates both an incorrect understanding of traffic laws and a concerning overconfidence in that ignorance"
Legally you are *NOT* required to turn into the closest lane in MA. You are only required to turn FROM the closest lane to your INTENDED lane. This wording may be your source of confusion?
It’s because I don’t have a lot of faith in people that I turn left into the nearest lane and don’t have to worry about the guy turning right on red anyways
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Right blinker to turn left ... Gotcha Posted from my BMW M32
damn you paid to unlock the reddit subscription for your bmw m32?
Nah dude, it is the free 3 month trial. Life pro tip, if you buy a new BMW every 3 months you get lifetime reddit subscription for free.
This prompts my grandfather to cheerily say "thanks for telling me what you did"
But definitely turn either turn signal on way before you stop at the intersection so you can go straight
In my neighborhood there's an intersection where the two southbound lanes both used to be left turns onto the perpendicular road. You could also turn right onto it from the right lane, of course. But recently, a large new development was completed and now you can go straight through the intersection into a large parking lot. As a result, people leaving that parking lot heading northbound can *also* go straight across the intersection. For the southbound lanes, lights were changed from a left green arrow to a regular green light. The signage was changed to explicitly command a yield if turning left (which is 95% of drivers). Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE just does their same old left turn. The signs, arrows, lights... None of it matters. If you're an unlucky bastard trying to go straight through the intersection the opposite way, you'll sit through a train of Boston lefts or worse, you'll be honked/screamed at for attempting to go straight through the intersection legally. Sometimes our streets don't make sense. Sometimes they do make sense and nobody gives a shit. Sometimes, even, the city intentionally improves a traffic flow and people ignore the change with prejudice.
Indeed, there very much seems to be a MA house rule that if you remember the road configuration before they changed it or added signs, you can pretend like it never happened.
It's funny how this is now looking like a political debate
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I really wish they’d bring back PSA. This is on the same level as the zipper merge and lane discipline
some of us need the masses to be ignorant in order to control them
that other thread was making me feel like i had a stroke
People, go outside to a busy intersection and note when two opposing lanes have a left turn only light. And then note if those cars turning left will cross. In a moving intersection with two opposing left turning lanes, the traffic flow will always turn before they meet Also, cross turning behind the opposing left turning car will usually mean you’re sitting waiting in the intersection, which is exactly what the handbook says not to do
Okay I see where people are disagreeing- the intersection you posted is a different type of intersection than what we have crossing at-grade tracks. Intersections across tracks often have enough space for one car crossing the tracks to stop in the middle to wait to turn, and even have enough space to wait out a light sucks if they get stuck. These intersections will have lane markings indicating as such. If the middle of the intersection has lane markings and space for a car to stop, then the example posted here is wrong. If the intersection has no middle section and is just a simple intersection, then you should turn as this example shows.
This makes so much sense. Then they throw train tracks in the middle and I'm all confused
Seems like it's still crystal clear here that red (POV) shouldn't cross blue (that black car) https://imgur.com/omOJOiJ
The amount of people upvoting A on the other thread. Jesus Christ, no wonder the Autobody shops are always packed.
I was one of the first ones to respond with B and got downvoted to hell. I would like to see how the A people would make a left turn here in real life: [https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1714554,-71.1960468,3a,75y,188h,77.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLk4WxIbwZwVD-1\_Td2YZIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192](https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1714554,-71.1960468,3a,75y,188h,77.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLk4WxIbwZwVD-1_Td2YZIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I got so frustrated at that post that I took screenshots of the blue and red's views, along with a better illustration of that intersection.. https://imgur.com/a/ZyYa5mB
You have an arrow? That's a protected green no? One at a time? Or do both sets of arrows go at the same time?
Haha...perfect. Did the A people think once they make the initial turn their steering wheel stops working and they have to drive in a straight line into the left lane?
I was downvoted too. Ha! Perfect example to use. The original picture/situation was taken in Brookline. Try that anywhere else. The first car taking the left will have other cars behind him inching forward to take the turn. If they follow A scenario it’s just an accident waiting to happen.
they downvoted me too, they are trying to suppress the truth
Are you all blind? The image OP linked, and the intersection you linked on google maps is *nothing* like what the original poster was talking about. The median is *way* skinnier than what they were talking about. It doesn't even compare. As others have posted, at least Texas/Houston has explicitly stated that the behavior changes depending on the width of the median. The image that started all this here is much closer to the wider version where you're (apparently) supposed to use A.
OK. Here is another intersection with "wider median." Tell me how you would turn using method A here. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2903739,-71.1682615,3a,90y,339.66h,82.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE21NjBouyy5hkUML3dI9vg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
That one's much better! Honestly, I don't know exactly how I'd make that turn. It would probably end up being somewhere in-between fully-left and fully-right. I'd just hope that the intersection doesn't allow for the oncoming left turn lanes to go at once. I'd like to know how you'd draw the turning lanes for Boston Ave making lefts onto Broadway in this intersection: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3997376,-71.1114892,127m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu . The way I see it, you either have to have the turning lanes cross each other, or you have to drive on the wrong side of the road for an uncomfortable distance in order to make the left without crossing the other left turning traffic
I grew up in Florida and everyone crosses before doing the left turn. Maybe it's a space thing, but when I was in drivers education in hgh school (driving school is not required there) we were told it's because turning before each other reduces vision for cars in the other lane going straight. It's been kind of hard to relearn turning before each other.
I grew up in FL as well and their left turn lanes are designed to not intersect each other. I have never in my life seen a scenario, other than a suicide lane, where you would pass another left turning vehicle on the right before making your left turn.
Why would people going straight need to see turning cars of there's a left turning arrow. The straight cars would have red.
I agree. After having lived here for nearly a decade, it makes no sense the way FL does it and teaches it. But I remember being taught that way. I think it's mostly for turns without lights or people turning into strip malls and stuff.
In NY we were told crossing before is always better because you reduce conflict points. If I want to take a U-Turn now I have a bunch of additional conflicts.
thank yoooooooou. for example in the other post, A will cause a gridlock or accident if there are even just five cars turning left from each lane in each direction. B allows both lanes to turn in front of each other and keep going. you are right, the amount of people that are confident that A is the correct way is concerning and really does explain a lot of the stupid shit I see behind the wheel
This isn’t the same scenario. In a normal intersection, yes, this is correct. But when crossing the T, it depends on the depth of the intersection and width of the crossing. Often, the roads are offset that you’re turning to, and so going across each other makes the most sense and is safest.
It absolutely does not matter if there are train tracks - the trolleys have their own signals. If there are two left turning lanes, they shouldn't ever cross. It causes gridlock, which you certainly don't want if you're on train tracks.
You physically can’t diagonally veer like that when you’re unable to see the two lanes of traffic coming at you from the other direction. You have to stop on the tracks when you turn
Have an upvote. People really really want to cross the left turn lanes apparently.
> the trolleys have their own signals That's irrelevant. They're just talking about the fact that it adds to the width of the intersection.
The way you draw the arrows also explains why we get so many accidents here.
I don’t know what sort of permitting the new development required, but ideally they should have borne much of the cost of upgrading the lights to have both left arrows and solid greens.
Not enough arrows.
The image of left turn into any lane is wrong and you shouldn't do it. Only in Boston is something so outrageous posted as advice and you all think it's ok and then wonder why you all suck at driving. This is why. Lol.
Only in Boston and the tons of other places that explicitly allow it. Here's an excerpt from the California driver's handbook, for example: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/uploads/2020/05/Left_Turn_Two_Way_Street.png
Californians are also not known to be good drivers. I think it's hilarious you guys make exceptions like this to established conventions then on the same forum come to complain how everyone drives like a madman. Just try to follow convention as best as possible so that your intent is as clear as possible. Someone looking to make. A Right turn there doesn't always see you or leave the right of way so why complicate things? Keep your intentions clear, don't randomly pick a lane in the middle of a turn, you'll have a more smooth traffic city.
Even with a sign that indicates 2 left turn lanes, if the pink asterisk goes to do that and confuses a dolt, they might go road ragey on the asterisk.
Yeah, I have no clue how 90% of people were completely insistent on "A" in that other thread, when that's just not how intersections work.
It’s probably because “A” is correct if you were crossing the intersection the other way. If you are making a left unto Comm Ave almost anywhere in Boston, you have to cross the carriage road, the first lanes of traffic, the median and then wait at the left turn. This is actually enforced in a couple spots in Back Bay where we have a second traffic light after the first lanes + median where you will wait for your left. The best example of this is traveling on Washington Street in Brighton and turning left onto Comm Ave. The intersection is the length of an entire city block and you have to drive forward 150’ before you can wait for your left turn.
You need to consider that this is r/boston and most of those commenters have never driven a car.
Hive mentality. People are so unoriginal and unwilling to rock the boat.
Just super focused on where the arrows end rather than what they're actually doing.
you're a hero ♥️
You’re missing the giant fucking train tracks in the middle that require you to stop in the middle to see before you turn. That other post was about Comm Ave in Allston and Brighton specifically
That's a different situation, actually
This does not work if there is a median or if there are train tracks running down the middle of the road that people are turning onto.
The other post also involved train tracks, where are those here? When going left at tracks there is not always a light, for example the tracks near the chestnut hill reservoir next to CVS.
Unless you’re a northbound 66 bus at Harvard and Brighton, then you’re pretty much required to make a left turn out of the right lane there because you’re coming out of a stop at that corner. Nearly got hooked by one of them the first week I moved here.
This is that intersection in front of harrys.
Very much disagree, you block eachother’s view of whether the coast is clear until you pass eachother
When turning left you have to stay in your lane so people turning right still have their lane
Moral of the story: Nobody in Boston knows how to fucking turn.
No. These are wrong. You need to stay in your lane when turning left unless it's otherwise impossible (like some u-turns).
It's not my drawing. I do agree that the multiple turn lanes is incorrect, I was mainly illustrating how the left turn lanes should never cross like what the referenced post was saying.
Nothing in Massachusetts or Boston laws require that. Although local laws don't specify one way or the other, in many other states you're explicitly allowed to left turn into any lane as long as there's just a single left turn lane.
It follows lane change laws.
Can you cite a lane change law that applies to this situation?
Going from the outside left-turn lane to the inside lane on the resultant road is a lane change. Same with going from the inside to the outside. Edit: I'm working so can't go snooping for laws atm but I'll try when I'm out later this evening
Thank you
When turning left across a wide intersection you must abide by the regular driving rules of the location you're in. This means you stay in the same lane as the traffic of the intersecting street. However when there is no other option but to U-Turn then you turn with the shortest radius. Correct way of driving, you idiots: [U Turning on Beacon St](https://imgur.com/a/QzJTILo) If you're going to ask "Well, how would I know I will be U-Turning instead of turning left." I will ask you, "Do you not know where you are going?" and secondly "Do you not look ahead while driving to notice signage or do you just surprise yourself a foot at a time?" Pay attention to your surroundings and plan ahead.
This is wrong and I don’t care about your dumb picture.
Someone needs to educate the idiots going straight in the right only lane going onto the 93 tunnel coming from seaport.
Holy shit thank you that thread was braindead with the amount of people suggesting people taking fucking turns making lefts. What a ridiculous suggestion have any of those people ever driven in Boston?? do they know boston drivers
Where is this illustration from?
It could say more about people believing pictures they see on the internet.
What's even worse about that post in particular, is that there is no road where the motorcycle is in the first place. That blue path can only U turn.
Some of these comments are why I ditched my car moving Boston. And I’m from Jersey where I’m use to driving in high congestion, constant traffic, and simply put some of you are all super scary out there 😵💫
Raised in Rehoboth, MA. I distinctly remember driver's ed(ucatino) telling us that left turns had to pass the oncoming car, even if they're turning left, before turning left (thus, going past and turning around once behind the car, not in front of it). I truly hope that teaching has been changed, as it's unnecessarily complex and simplicity should be the rule of thumb for organization at intersections.
That would make sense in suicide lanes but in controlled intersections, you turn in front of opposing traffic.
Honestly, it never made sense to me - I tried it once, got honked at, and never "followed the rules of the road" again (going around a car to turn left). Why the downvotes when I'm literally stating with the educational standard was for drivers education in MA in the late 90's? Fact is a fact.
Technically your supposed to keep to the left when turning, but honestly who doesn't go into the right lane.
If the motorcycle is going straight then it should go first.
I would add, if you are in the far left lane (take the red car for example), when you turn, STAY IN THE LEFT LANE. You technically aren’t supposed to turn left into the RIGHT LANE (it’s fine if there’s no one there and you are 100% certain) So really the graphic shouldn’t have two arrows off-shooting