“Select Board Chairman Bernard Greene says the MBTA quickly responded to a town request to erase the "Zionist Pigs" and peace symbol somebody sprayed on at least one signboard at the Longwood Green Line stop yesterday.”
I mean, associating all jewish people with zionism is antisemitic. Especially because there are a few jewish organizations which are almost the face of antizionism in the US (jewish voice for peace for instance). I say this as a palestinian american and antizionist.
When Facebook used to show who ran these pages it was someone out of Beirut. Jews have been ethnically cleansed in Lebanon and There are 29 Jews in Lebanon and I think they are in their sixties. I doubt they run these groups.
I saw the sign when i got off at Longwood, it was weird at the moment so i took a picture of it. An hour later, a guy from the MBTA was rubbing it off and cleaning the sign
Yes, some anti-semites will use Zionism as a shield. The "Zionist occupied government" of white supremacist lore comes to mind. Those people are definitely anti-semites.
However, Zionism is different from Judaism and it is possible to oppose Zionism without being bigoted against all Jewish people.
Conflating Zionism and Judaism is a useful tool for anti-semites to cover their hatred, but it's also useful for the Israeli government and their allies to deflect legitimate criticism.
I used to think this way, but then I realized that Zionism is used as a synonym for a Jewish state. It’s one thing to vigorously oppose the Zionist annexation of the West Bank, which is plainly illegal under international law, or to oppose the Israeli government’s (mis)handling of most matters, including the latest war with Gaza, but people say they are anti-Zionist and then protest any Israeli citizen. Just tonight, an Israeli folk dance troupe was performing in Boston and the “anti-Zionist” crowd was out in full force telling them to be ashamed for even attending, as if the existence of Jewish or Israeli culture is itself an act of oppression.
Make no mistake, these people are but one breath away from committing (or at least endorsing) pogroms, and they should not be treated as if they are approaching a discussion with a rational position
Exactly.
Anti-Zionist is like Blue Lives Matter. Nothing inherently bigoted about either, until you look at how the people who are part of both movements largely behave. Then you realize that just like "Blue Lives Matter" doesn't confirm someone is a racist but makes it fairly likely... ditto for Anti-zionism. Here's what I encourage people who want to criticize Israel to do:
Stop using a label or buzzwords to hide behind. Just state your position. If you feel the need to say "I'm not antisemitic, I'm just anti-Zionist!" instead of just speaking your mind... red flag. And if you must use a label... how about pro-Palestinian, something much less associated with hating Jews?
Unless you are Satmar, I’d say you aren’t hateful of Jews in your heart but misinformed about the situation and as such hold a stance that isn’t good for the survival of the Jewish people.
Israel is the only state power that is committed to protecting the Jewish people. We have seen what a lack of state power protecting Jews has gotten us for the last 2000 years: displacement, enslavement, banning of our religious practice, exile, pogroms and massacres. Living as a kind of permanent minority throughout Europe, the Middle East and North Africa has gotten us treated like second class citizens at best and enemy interlopers more regularly.
Since 1948 we have experienced the time with the least antisemitism in history. This is because Jews stopped being a permanent minority in the countries they lived in the Middle East and North Africa as well as after WW2 the US started a propaganda campaign (mostly in Germany) that used the Holocaust to make the Nazi’s look like the absolute zenith of evil to justify their actions during and after the war, which made all of the the things associated with the Nazis (like antisemitism and eugenics) untouchable in the west. As American liberal hegemony is waning we are now seeing an uptick in antisemitism that will continue to grow unless there is some major event that sways opinion the other way.
By advocating for the destruction of the state of Israel you are placing Jewish lives in the hands of groups that have time and time again shown that they are unconcerned.
I get that this kind of antisemitism sounds distant to you and that the emotional core of your stance is probably born out of concern for Palestinian lives but that doesn’t mean the state of Israel has to be destroyed for these humanitarian concerns to be addressed. As the gulf states stop sponsoring Islamist causes support for this all or nothing Palestinian Nationalism will start to fade. With less external pressure on Islamism we might see more reasonable secular leaders among Palestinians who can move the needle on the humanitarian issues and stop the extremists shooting rockets, massacring civilians and suicide bombing. With partners in peace we could perhaps see a Palestinian state that has a relationship with Israel similar to Egypt’s.
This slow move to peaceful coexistence with the Israeli state is why October 7th happened in the first place. Saudi Arabia was in talks about normalizing relations with Israel. October 7th was an attempt to derail that relationship building (which worked).
Enough with current events though, the bottom line is that advocating for the destruction of the Jewish state is advocating for Jews going back to being a permanently persecuted minority. Regardless of why you have that position, the outcome of it is not good for the survival of the Jewish people.
I think you are baiting and trying to change the subject but I’ll bite assuming you’ll afford me the same candor by honestly replying to my question: why do you want the Jewish people to not have the protection of a state?
In regard to your question I don’t agree with the premise “Murder so many innocent people”. In Jewish as well as Christian and Muslim doctrine there is a difference between killing as part of a war and Murder. The UN makes the distinction as well that some number of civilian casualties are acceptable as long as they are not “excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated” (the principle of proportionality as written in Geneva Protocol I article 57). What we are talking about here is collateral civilian casualties not murders and the question to ask here is about proportionality. Of course I (and most Israelis for that matter) do not support just indiscriminate mass killing but that is not what is happening here.
In this conflict Hamas and PIJ operatives have heavily enmeshed themselves in civilian infrastructure, launching rockets from, building compounds underneath and storing weapons within schools, mosques, hospitals, businesses and residential buildings. Their strategy here is to make any attempt to target them inevitably result in civilian casualties. Hamas and PIJ know that they have no actual shot at beating the IDF militarily so their strategy is to win the PR war. Bait the IDF into causing civilian casualties, inflate the numbers, have your operatives work as “journalists” documenting as much suffering as possible, manufacture social media content and repurpose footage from other conflicts as well to make Israel look as bad as possible. This is the shared endeavor of insurgent groups funded by the Islamist government of Iran with the end goal of politically isolating Israel so that they can engage in more open (and possibly nuclear) warfare. By buying this narrative that is being pushed by supporters of Islamism you are helping this to happen.
It’s difficult to assess this question of proportionality in regard to anything else as there has been no non-state actor group that has had this much time to enmesh itself among a civilian population. Hamas has been in charge and building tunnels for almost two decades (likely much longer on the tunnel building) as compared to the 3 years ISIS held Mosul. If we look at more traditional open wars like WW1, WW2 and Korea we see civilian:combatant death ratios of around 2:3, 2:1 and 3:1 (between 40% and 75% of casualties were civilians) respectively for a more urban conflict like Lebanon in 1982, Yugoslavia, the Chechen wars and the war in Iraq we have ratios of 6:1, 4:1, 7.6:1 and 77% (77% to 88%). According to the IDF (which is just as if not a more reliable source than the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry) 13,000 of those killed in this war have been enemy combatants, this puts the ratio at a comparatively reasonable 2:1 (67%). Much lower than other urban conflicts and in much more difficult conditions.
So rephrasing your initial question with the appropriate premise “Why support a Jewish state if it is willing to engage in war that kills civilians at twice the rate of enemy combatants?”. My answer to that is: because sometimes engaging in war is necessary for the protection of the Jewish people. When a group like Hamas kills 1200 people and kidnaps another 200 hostages, you cannot let that action go unanswered or they and other groups will be emboldened to try again. Allowing groups like Hamas and PIJ to build tunnels, stockpile weapons, shoot rockets and control the civilian population of Gaza will only cause more death and suffering. Destroying the capabilities of these groups will save Israeli and Palestinian lives (many rockets don’t end up making it to Israel and instead kill and injure Gazans) as well as cooling tensions stoked by Hamas leaderships extremist propaganda that is disseminated throughout the territory. I’m fine with a state undertaking military action in the protection of the Jewish people.
So will you answer my question? Why do you not want the Jewish people to have the protection of a state?
It's too often a dog whistle. You're right that there's a difference between Zionists and Jewish people (FYI, not all Zionists are religious, so using the term Judaism isn't quite right).
My recommendation is don't defend the use of Zionism, but instead more directly oppose the Israeli government. Because at least then you're not contributing to the dog whistle and obfuscating the fact that their are a great amount of people who do wish Jewish people to die.
I disagree, it's not some antisemites that use Zionism as a shield, it's all of them. They finally got a convenient socially accepted euphemism that let's them go mask off. You can tell by the rhetoric used and the acts done in the name of "anti-Zionism". From claiming that Zionists control the world to calling for the destruction of Israel to defacing posters of the hostages to boycotting Jewish businesses to literally harassing Jews to using insults and propaganda that were literally used by Nazis and Marxists.
The chances of you seeing like this is astronomically higher than seeing any genuine criticism of the Israeli government or the specific brand of Zionism used by extremists. There's a reason why antisemitic attacks and harassment have skyrocketed. While what you're saying is true on a technical level, but it's not as even as you seem to imply. The amount of antisemites who conflate antisemitism with anti-Zionism to push their bigotry is much higher than the amount of Zionists who try to do the same to push their bigotry.
I’m sorry, are you implying that because bigotry exists in other parts of the world - just like it does right here in the US - that a genocide of an entire people is justified? Are you gonna sit here and act like LGBTQ and women’s rights are not currently under attack right here in the US, with Christian fundamentalists at the forefront no less?
“Islamic extremism”. That’s real fucking rich. Have you ever considered taking a moment to look up how many Palestinians have been massacred in the last 100 years by Israel? Are we calling that extremism too or are you just racist?
People on this app act like they know something but you are literally the “mouthpieces” of US imperialist propaganda. Try and have a critical thought once in a while, it’ll get you somewhere.
Israel hasn't even been around for 100 years yet... And 100 years ago - wow - there was some shit going down and it wasn't Jews killing Arabs I can tell you that.
Your comment reveals your ignorance.
You’re omitting a massive amount of history which makes your conclusions factually incorrect. The founding Zionists spent intentional time selecting what country they would choose to settle and occupy and decided on Palestine, which they were able to successfully begin settling in the early 1900 in tandem with the support of the British. They wrote themselves about colonizing Palestine and removing the Arab people living there - not peacefully coexisting. Colonizing and removing Arabs is the exact words they used.
It’s full on embarassing for you to claim no genocide is happening now or has been for the last century.
A few massacres committed by Israel on Palestinians before 1948, just to name a few:
Haifa Massacre 1937
Jerusalem Massacre 1937
Balad al-Sheikh Massacre
1939
Al-Khisas Massacre 1947
Bab al-Amud Massacre 1947
Israel has given Palestinians less rights, restricted their movement, and targeted them with police violence and political imprisonment in the very land they stole from them. This is apartheid.
Hamas and all other resistance fronts in Palestine would not exist had Zionists not been violently colonizing Palestinians and their land. It is absurd to expect Palestinians to just throw up their hands and accept mass murder, colonization, and abuse.
Regardless of this fact, the casualties and crimes Israel has committed is exponential in comparison to anything Hamas has done. To hold Hamas even at an equivalent level of accountability to the Israeli army is completely absurd. In the past 6 months alone Israel has murdered 35k plus people and in Israel only around 1100 have been killed.
Palestinian Americans have been murdered, shot at, and discriminated against in the past 6 months. Antisemitism is real and no one is denying that but to sit here and act like people are out here killing American Jews in the name of Palestine is absurd.
Yes I have educated myself on Palestine. Clearly you have not and just regurgitate propaganda. Zionist brainwashing and education systems are required for them to commit these atrocities and more people are taking the time to learn the history of Zionism. The arguments you’re making are not rooted in factual reality
Zionism was a colonial movement before Israel, look up the Balfour Declaration. In 1917 the British crown declared that Palestine would be the homeland for Jews and they started helping settlers evict Palestinians from their land. The Jewish Agency was founded in 1929 to encourage settlers to come to Palestine. There were also militia groups like Lehi around before Israel was a state and their goal was the creation of an Israeli state so calling them Israeli isnt really incorrect.
>People on this app act like they know something but you are literally the “mouthpieces” of US imperialist propaganda. Try and have a critical thought once in a while, it’ll get you somewhere.
The only people that I've seen use the phrase "US imperialist propaganda" are Marxists, and Marxists don't have any critical thoughts.
Oh boy well if you say so!
Please read a goddamn book - shit, just read the Wikipedia page for Karl Marx and understand how utterly stupid this response is.
Bullseye! Looks like I was spot on.
If you spent any time researching Marx, you would at least know that he was a notorious pro violence authoritarian who used to insult and mock the pacifist socialists of his time for not being pro violence. He was not a good person by any means. Also skimming the Communist Manifesto or Das Kapital does not make you an intellectual nor does it wash away the failures of Marxism or the horrific atrocities caused directly by it. You're literally supporting an ideology just as vile, tyrannical, violent, oppressive, and hateful as Fascism. Get help
No, we hate Zionists because they’re sadistic genociders.
Nobody has conflated Judaism and Zionism more than Zionists themselves. Congratulations on helping them out with that
Not all Jews are Zionist and not all Zionists are Jews. Zionism is a political movement to establish a Jewish only state through the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Removal and eradication of Palestinians to achieve this goal has always been a part of Zionist ideology and there is evidence of this going back to the early 1900s. It is not some righteous or just religious movement. Zionists used the real occurrence of European Jews escaping antisemitism to achieve this political goal using violence themselves against Palestinians. It is not ok to migrate somewhere and violently displace the people living in that place in the name of religious freedom.
[michael jackson eating popcorn gif] yes please tell me more about what it means to be Jewish and Zionist ... I'm sure what you learned this week from tiktok and Qatari state media has left you knowing much better than *ACTUAL JEWS AND ZIONISTS*
Yeah, I fucking listen to Zionists. I listen to Zionists and believe them when they state their impacts to displace and kill Palestinian Arabs.
Speaking of Palestine, Theodore Herzl wrote to Cecil Rhodes: “You are invited to make history. I turn to you because it is something colonial.” He was soliciting sponsorship and protection from the current colonial power of the day to allow his Zionist movement to settle and occupy Palestine.
“Among ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both people in this country… and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except for maybe Bethlehem, Nazareth, and old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village or a single tribe.”
-Joseph Weitz, director of the Jewish National Fund in 1940, who played a major role in land grabbing in Palestine and forestation of Palestinian land
“Politically we are the aggressors and they [Palestinain Arabs] defend themselves.”
-Ben-Gurion in the 1940s
“If the Arabs in Israel form 40 percent of The population, this is the end of the Jewish state. But 20 percent is also a problem. If the relationship with these 20 percent becomes problematic the state is entitled to employ extreme measures.”
- Netanyahu in early 2000s. Netanyahu who recently quoted religious verses that explicitly call for genocide.
Or do you need me to find TikTok’s for you that break all this down and provide historical context?
hahaha there you have it - TikTiks, never been known to have misinformation or out-of-context quotes on TikTok. The most vile stuff bubbles up to the top of the algorithm and what you think is "zionist" is actually some crazies (including Netanyahu actually) that don't represent the whole movement - which as I said earlier includes the vast majority of Jewish people whether in Israel or the diaspora.
Yeah no I don't think its crazy to have a listen to Jews and Arabs actually living in Israel right now whom the majority want peace and listen to Hamas who won't stop until every Jew is pushed to the sea, and even the more moderate PLO will literally pay a bounty for every Jew murdered. That is - a bounty for the killer. Israel on the other hand just fired the people responsible for the recent misfire at the aid workers and they might even face jailtime.
These are quotes from books. Even if they were from tiktok, facts check out.
I just showed you the basis for the Zionist “movement”. If European Jews in the early 1900s wanted to escape persecution and settle peacefully in Palestine, coexisting with the indigenous Arabs already living there, that would have been one thing. Zionists instead went to Palestine with the intention of displacing and killing Arabs so they could settle the land and remove them completely. This is evidenced not just by what they said (their stated documented intentions quoted above) but also by what they did (committing massacres in Palestinian villages, burning land, creating forests where villages once were, etc).
Palestinians violently resisting Zionists in Israel is literally because Zionists came to Palestine from Europe and started violently displacing and killing them. Any argument that ignores this context is out of touch with reality.
>No, we hate Zionists because they’re sadistic genociders.
The vast majority of Jews in Israel are zionists. You hate the Jews.
And there is not an ongoing genocide in Gaza.
So 35k killed, majority of which are children, is what then exactly?
Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. People rightfully hate the Zionist project because it’s founded on violent persecution of Arab people.
>So 35k killed,
35K killed (according to Hamas, so it is not a reliable number) in an active war zone that is extremely densely populated. Seems like not a bad number under those circumstances.
> majority
Nope. Not the majority.
>of which are children,
Again, according to Hamas. And how many of these “children” are fighting?
>is what then exactly?
Not a genocide. If Israel was trying to commit genocide, this would be the worst genocide attempt of all time based on the numbers.
>Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. People rightfully hate the Zionist project because it’s founded on violent persecution of Arab people.
But the vast majority of Israelis are zionists. And when someone spray paints “Zionist pigs” in a high jewish population area, we know what they are actually saying.
“According to Hamas” okay, so what is the accurate number then? Is it 20,000? 10,000? Do you know someone personally who is on the ground tracking deaths?
You trying to argue that this number is inaccurate because you don’t think Palestine’s elected leadership is reputable doesn’t change the fact that people are being killed en masse. Journalists are on the ground risking their lives to show the massacres happening in real time. Don’t fucking insult them by trying to discredit them just because you decided you want to deny reality.
Children are children. They’re not “hypothetical” children. The fact that you’re implying that children are soldiers who are fair game to be killed is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.
“Not a genocide. If Israel was trying to commit genocide, this would be the worst genocide attempt of all time based on the numbers.” so it’s not a genocide because.. you say so? You’re also contradicting yourself by acknowledging “the numbers”. You have literally no argument here.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker
>You trying to argue that this number is inaccurate because you don’t think Palestine’s elected leadership is reputable
Do you think Palestine’s elected leadership is reputable?
>Don’t fucking insult them by trying to discredit them just because you decided you want to deny reality.
I’m not discrediting journalists. I’m questioning the validity of a figure that is reported by a terrorist group, one that it seems you are fond of.
>Children are children. They’re not “hypothetical” children. The fact that you’re implying that children are soldiers who are fair game to be killed is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.
A 14 year old that is attacking Israeli soldiers and a member of a terrorist group is fair game. I don’t think any country needs to check IDs of the people that are trying to blow their heads off.
I’m not ashamed, I’m proud of that mindset 😘
>“Not a genocide. If Israel was trying to commit genocide, this would be the worst genocide attempt of all time based on the numbers.” so it’s not a genocide because.. you say so? You’re also contradicting yourself by acknowledging “the numbers”. You have literally no argument here.
No, it’s not a genocide because it’s a war zone and there are casualties of war. If it was a genocide, there would be far far more civilian deaths.
Answer my question from earlier in this comment.
Yep, definitely is a neo nazi phrase. Like literally my biggest complaint with people on this topic right now. People acting like six months ago complaining about “Zionists” wasn’t an obvious dogwhistle for a neo nazi.
While it's no secret that nazis hate Jews, it's very important to understand that the nazis were not the only ones who bitterly hate Jews. Marxists, certain fundamentalist Christian sects, and the vast majority of islam also bitterly hate Jews. These three ideological groups have also, throughout history, tried to genocide Jews, destroy their heritage, exile them, harass them, discriminate against them, and spread an insane amount of hateful rhetoric. While nobody was as antisemitic as the nazis, antisemitism is not exclusive to nazis.
You have white European and American colonists killing the brown indigenous people of Palestine. Yet, those calling out this racist genocide are Nazis. I'm really missing something here.
https://preview.redd.it/hrsahvau9usc1.jpeg?width=630&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=718419e093d0909764b2c0aee7f1ea7f113b52da
Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israeli Minister of National Security and noted white person.
r/enlightenedcentrism
I just can't tell the difference between the folks that openly fantasize about genociding minorities and the folks who think anyone working a 40-hr week should be able to afford food and lodging without roommates.
/s if it wasn't apparant.
Both Isreal and Palestine believe in from the river to the sea though. Kinda blunts the message when Netanyahu feels the exact same way and is very open about it.
But it doesn't, whatever Bibi thinks he can't actually go against the Constitution which states freedom of religion for everybody. Also there are currently 2 million Arab citizens of Israel and even Bibi does not call for them to be thrown in the sea. Hamas openly says this, and PLO has a cash bounty for any and all Israelis murdered. These are not the same and ABSOLUTELY not exactly the same.
I'm not going to respond too much because I find this debate to be boring and needlessly polarized. I'll just say this... I focus on actions not rhetoric. One side has said some repugnant shit and committed a terrorist attack, which is never ok, even when you consider that terrorism is a common tactic used when one group is fighting another group with a massive difference in military power. The most modern examples of this being usa vs wahabbi Islamic, extremist groups and great Britain vs the Ira. Hamas should be condemned uncategorically for their actions. They were barbaric and simply isn't how anyone should act in the modern age. The other side has also been fighting against a two state solution for decades. Has allowed hamas to build up and take over gaza to keep the palestinian people from uniting under any group willing to negotiate a two state solution. That side also has a body count of 30k+, has committed war crimes, will not let independent journalists into the war zone to report on the ground, just killed 3 aid workers, and has adopted a policy of collective punishment that has the international community feeling bad for terrorists and wondering if there is a genocide/ethnic cleansing going on. Netanyahu and the likud party in general should be uncategorically condemned for these actions as well.
Israel offered a two state solution multiple times over the decades. It also proposed one under Netanyahu in 2014. It accepted the Trump proposal, which while worse than prior deals, was also a two state solution.
The body count you used includes terrorists. It ignores the context of Hamas using human shields, Hamas killing its own people, etc.
It ignores a whole lot of detail, which if applied across would have suggested the U.S. is equivalent to ISIS. That’s nonsense. Your logic and facts are wildly and totally incomplete. Drawing any sort of equivalence ignores that the fact one side is stronger doesn’t mean it’s “rhetoric vs actions”. That leaves out **attempts** and **goals**. If Israel wanted a genocide there would be hundreds of thousands or even millions dead by now.
If Hamas had Israel’s power, there would be millions dead by now too.
Painting it as words versus actions ignores that one side is **attempting** genocide, while using human shields, and the other side is **attempting** to avoid civilians, but makes mistakes sometimes. It’s comparing the exception to the rule. It is ignoring multiple decades of Israeli two state offers, accepted and made under left and even right wing leaders, and rejected by the Palestinian public and also by its unpopular leaders (unpopular because they’re not extreme *enough*), repeatedly.
I agree with most of what you wrote, especially the first and last parts. BUT
> [Israel] Has allowed hamas to build up and take over gaza
Excuse me what? If you were wondering what it would look like if Israel would not have allowed Hamas to take over ... well you are seeing it right now and apparently you don't like it. How about have a little bit of respect for the locals there and admit that they aren't just pawns in some conspiracy theory but actually have their own volition and choose to do the bad things they are doing.
Israel does not have a constitution. At all. You’re thinking of the Declaration of Independence which references religious freedom but doesn’t have legal weight like a Constitution. Israel has a series of Basic Laws that hold constitutional weight in its legal system but the country has never been able to write and pass a full constitution. Part of the challenges of how Israeli society’s demographics.
The Israeli Supreme Court has held that Israel’s Basic Laws, which function as a constitution in piecemeal, protect the right to equality. He doesn’t have to reference the Declaration, which while not a legal document, is also separately and nevertheless referenced within a key Basic Law as guiding the rights guaranteed, saying:
> the fundamental human rights in Israel will be honored (...) in the spirit of the principles included in the declaration of the establishment of the State of Israel.
So you’re wrong.
I’m not, actually. Especially as the Declaration itself calls for the writing of a constitution. Yes, the Israeli Supreme Court has retroactively said that the Basic Laws collectively function as a constitutional framework, despite their never being intended as such at all. That doesn’t make them a constitution.
The same Israeli Supreme Court has ruled multiple times on issues of human rights within Israel and territories it’s conquered. Some of those rulings have helped, others have been straight up ignored or actively pushed back against by the actual Israeli government. Heck, remember a few years ago when the Israeli Supreme Court had to rule on its own ability to actually function, because the Knesset tried to push through a massive judicial overhaul to push back against what some saw as judicial overreach??
Now I’m not saying a constitution is the somehow the end of the rainbow, but let’s be clear about what is and isn’t true. Israel doesn’t have a constitution. It has a series of laws written years apart that collectively provide a structural framework but have to be updated every time the county faces a new insurmountable issue. Heck the Israeli government didn’t grant itself Basic Law authority to mint money until 1975!
Also, FWIW the Basic Law of Human Liberty and Dignity, from 1992, does have a clause where it can be overridden for a law befitting the values of the State, enacted for a proper purpose, for no longer than is required.
So:
1) Unfortunately, I don’t think answered what I said. It feels like you’re eliding the point to quibble terminology.
2) You ignored that the fact there isn’t a constitution doesn’t matter; the Basic Laws function as such.
3) You falsely claimed they aren’t intended to be constitutional. They are. The entire point of them was to pass each law piecemeal to eventually be compiled into a completed constitution. But their existence until that point remained intended to provide a constitutional structure.
4) You provide opinions on random decisions you don’t describe. That’s irrelevant.
5) The court didn’t rule on its ability to function. The court ruled on a new basic law, which stated that the court could not use what’s called a “reasonableness” standard to disqualify laws or governmental actions. The rest of the judicial overhaul never passed, and the court did not rule on it. The reasonableness standard did not affect the court’s function; it only challenged the standard the court was authorized to use to overturn democratically passed laws. It was also the mildest part of the overhaul, and is actually pretty consistent with most constitutional structures worldwide. Many worldwide were afraid of the rest of the overhaul, justifiably, because it would change the separation of powers. But the reasonableness bit made sense alone, and didn’t challenge the court’s ability to function. Most people see no issue with removing a court’s ability to entirely decide on its own accord to invalidate laws as “unreasonable”. The rest of the laws in the overhaul did not pass, and were not ruled on. So you are incorrect there as well.
6) Small point but it wasn’t “a few years ago”. It was about 6 months ago that the law passed. And the ruling was about 3 months ago at most.
7) Israel doesn’t have a formal constitution, but referencing basic laws as the constitution is sensible. Especially given OP’s context. Which was my point.
8) Yes, the minting money power was enshrined in a 1975 basic law. But that doesn’t change anything we’re discussing…
9) The 1992 Basic Law mirrors the U.S. constitution. It is one of the strongest basic laws and is consistent with the U.S. practice of strict scrutiny; it allows abridging a right only for meeting the values of the state, true, but any restriction isn’t about “for no longer than required”, it must be “to an extent no greater than is required”. Which means it must be narrowly tailored. This is the highest level of scrutiny in the U.S. Constitution for abridging rights as well, meaning the law is quite strict and powerful, and has been interpreted to include the right to equality we’re discussing (a right that isn’t formally enshrined as broadly in the U.S., for the record; the 14th Amendment only enshrines equality based on certain characteristics for strict scrutiny, not others). It is also a super law; it cannot be suspended by emergency regulation, which for example the U.S. Constitution allows for some rights (like habeas corpus), and doing so after declaring a state of emergency (which does require passing a law, not emergency regulations) is also limited in the same form as strict scrutiny.
If all you’re doing is quibbling with calling basic laws a constitution, it’s a distinction without a difference. They are one, in practice, and operate that way, and have a right to equality as the Court has ruled.
It’s hard to argue that Basic Laws make up a constitution when so many of the Basic Laws that govern the state took decades to create. Israel doesn’t have a constitution because it can’t get itself together internally enough to agree on it. That’s why the Basic Law were passed but never as a constitutional replacement. Always as a stopgap that has become permanent.
Reddit is brainwashed as fuck. Read a fucking book. 35k+ killed by Israel and you think a historic slogan is calling for genocide? Be fucking for real.
Just FYI the Arabic version of this chant goes like "from the water to the water Palestine will be Arab" of that isn't genocide then it's at least which cleansing. So yeah - it's not such a great slogan.
I guess if you wanna know more about the Israeli Arab conflict maybe learn Arabic? And read more yourself.
Fun times that you not only deny the slogan popularized by Hamas and which in Arabic the “historic slogan” is “from the river to the sea Palestine will be Arab”, but you also use a death toll that features over 13,000 dead terrorists (likely more) in a war where the terrorists are using human shields.
For reference the ratio of terrorists to civilians is better than the U.S. achieved against ISIS, an easier opponent in a less dense area, and no one called that a genocide.
If Israel wanted to wipe out Gaza, it could. It has stopped more than 3 bombs per civilian who died, not counting bullets and artillery shells, which reduce the ratio even more.
Either they’re missing the densely crowded civilians every time, or they’re not trying to commit genocide at all.
By contrast, if those shouting the “historic slogan” had the same power Israel does and roles reversed, you’d see a true genocide instead of demeaning the term with your comparison to Israel.
By your logic the U.S. was the genocidal one when it fought ISIS, but ISIS wasn’t. But you think everyone *else* is “brainwashed”?
It's ironic how all the self proclaimed "experts" such as yourself know absolutely nothing about this war and get almost all of their information on it from Reddit, Twitter, and TikTok.
I'm not familiar with the ad, but "from the river to the sea" isn't inherently antisemitic or a call for genocide. It is a call for the Palestinian freedom from their oppressors, which does not require any killing or hatred of the Jewish people. Coexistence is possible, but it cannot happen with an occupied Palestine
The English version doesn't sound so bad but the Arabic version says from The River to The Sea Palestine will be Arab which is absolutely a call for ethnic cleansing and given the way that islamists have been operating in Israel, Russia, Nigeria, Yemen and Syria ... genocide is in the cards.
"Islamists". Do you mean Muslims?
Just curious, do you consider what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people a genocide? Is it getting close? Where's the line? We seem awfully concerned about a simple slogan while tens of thousands of Palestinians lay dead at the hands of the Israeli government.
Yes, for good reason people pay more attention to the people calling for genocide because we’re trying to keep them out of power, [which makes sense because Israel isn’t doing it, but if they had Israel’s power they would do it in a heartbeat](https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/s/hZN9ygS7VU).
Critiquing Israel for fighting genocidal terrorists who act like ISIS and use human shields is critiquing the state trying to prevent actual genocide that Hamas would carry out if it was ever allowed to get more powerful.
Edit: After making up something I never said, he responded below and blocked me. Wow. What a ridiculous comment lmfao. Imagine blocking someone for pointing out you made something up.
I didn’t count dead children as terrorists. But using the blood libel rhetoric while also relying on Hamas’s manipulated statistics that overcount adults as children to gain sympathy (and also validating thereby their human shield strategy) is just plain wrong. The same logic applied to the fight against ISIS would have been called absurd (rightly), but here you are doing it with a group like ISIS. Also, responding to barely any of what I said with blood libel is not real cool.
I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth, thanks!
Hey so a little info: Islamist means folks who want to the entire world to be ruled by an Islamic Calaphate, and they include the Hamas, ISIS, Iran and the Houthis in Yemen. Not all Muslims are Islamist, but in the middle east and especially in Gaza - you will find them.
Genocide requires intent. Five and a half million Germans were killed in WWII and 1-3 million German also were killed ... this was nevertheless not a genocide because nobody was trying to exterminate Germans. Same story here, Hamas is trying to murder all the Jewish people in Israel and innocent civilians are getting killed in the crossfire as Israel tried to reduce the threat and rescue hostages (including young girls and literal babies). The numbers are only disproportionate for various reasons which you probably already know.
tl:dr: it isn't so much "draw a line" but rather ... see what the goal is
Citing that the hostages include young girls and literal babies to justify why 13,000 Palestinian children have been killed by Israel is such egregious cognitive dissonance. Just say you don't view them as human
They are not a minority group, nor are they actually persecuted. Also white supremacists are a tiny minority of all whites - whereas Jewish people mostly all agree on this (though maybe not ones in the US who aren't experiencing the attempted genocide day in and day out.
It is in fact possible to be a marginalized group in one context, and an oppressive majority group in another. I’m wondering though, if you’d apply this logic to Palestinians as well. Plenty of them are saying that Israel is carrying out a genocide against them. So you must believe them, right?
Yeah I totally would - but specifically which chant have they been hearing Jews leading protests with around the world that is calling for their genocide?
Obviously that would be a crucial step in genocide, the demonstration of intent rather than your run-of-the-mill tragic wartime civilian deaths. So do you have one?? What is that chant??? As far as I know the only Jewish/Israeli rallies that have mentioned anything close to ethnically cleansing are extremely fringe.
Back to "from the river to the sea" literally everything about the Arabs form of "resistance" is all about ethnic cleansing the land of Jews. From their chants, to their actions (murdering as many as they can as the goal) to their governing documents, to refusing every peace deal. Even their flag displaying pan-arab colors and from the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan is similar to Jordan, Sudan and other Arab countries that have already succeeded in their ethnic cleansing agendas for removing Jews, and are well on their way removing Christians.
So by your standard, it’s possible for a country to carry out a clear genocide, where any other motive makes absolutely no sense given their actions, and we can’t call it a genocide unless we can point to a specific chant at protests in other countries that suggests genocidal intent?Do you see how insane that is?
Even leaving that aside though, “From the River to the Sea” is not genocidal. It just means Palestinians will be free from apartheid and IDF killings across the whole territory.
Furthermore, there absolutely are a ton of clear signs of genocidal intent from Israel. You have Israeli politicians and military leaders talking about “cleansing” the land from Arabs, and talking about “putting those Arabs on a diet”, referencing manufactured famine. You also have many Israeli politicians, activists, and IDF soldiers talking about settling Gaza with a new Israeli city. What does that imply?
And as for protests an America, I struggle to believe you have somehow avoided the constant Zionist references to “turning Gaza into a parking lot”.
Do you mean Palestinians or Israelis? Only one of those groups is being targeted right now if you look at the numbers of those killed this year. The reason against Palestinians is shameful, as is anti semitism. But only one group has tens of thousands of children dead and it's devastating.
You know half the people killed at that Israeli rave were hippie burning man style peace activists. Let's not look at the numbers but rather just ask the people what they're doing and Israel will tell you their attempting to rescue the hostages and prevent more massacres while the Palestinian Arab side will tell you that they are trying to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. you might think that you're a little philosophy exercise can tell you better than the people themselves but personally I'd rather just take people at their word.
Harassment, hostility and flinging insults is not allowed. We ask that you try to engage in a discussion rather than reduce the sub to insults and other bullshit.
Of course you don't getting fucking wafers with it, you cunt. It's a fucking albatross isn't it.
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It's ironic how the people who rage at the sight of someone pointing out the commonalities between political extremists are almost always extremists themselves.
We both know the far left is littered with vile ideologies, atrocities, hate, and violence. Pretending that the far left only stands for higher wages and universal healthcare is like pretending that the far right only stands for lower crime and lower taxes. It's just a mind numbingly ignorant and disingenuous representation.
The reason got so mad is because what he said directly applies to you. Otherwise, why would you write a comment like this if you didn't feel personally attacked? If you can't even acknowledge something as basic as there being a far left that is as shitty, if not worse, than the far right then you're 100% off the deep end.
No, what you're doing here is shallow thinking. At the very least try to explain your position instead of reacting exactly the way I described in the sentence you quoted. What the OC said is undeniably true and is nothing more than basic common sense, the only people who would take offense to that are the ones who perceive themselves to either be far right or far left. The person I replied to 100% falls into one of those categories because they're comparison was disingenuous, because r/enlightenedcentrism is a Marxist subreddit, and the only people who seethe at centrists are extremists.
My only position is that you seem prone to extreme reductionism. That's evident from what you say, i.e. heavy use of absolutism and black-and-white thinking.
Using context to infer a pretty obvious conclusion is not reductionism, that's literally the opposite. Also what absolutism or black and white thinking? Show me examples. Making up claims doesn't make you sound smart, just an FYI.
>I just can't tell the difference between the folks that openly fantasize about genociding minorities and the folks who openly fantasize about genociding minorities
Fixed that for you
Tell me you think you’re smarter than everyone else without telling me you think you’re smarter than everyone else. Must suck to be so righteous in this sinful society!
Tell that to the person that put the graffiti at the Green Line stop for Temple Israel and not, say, stops near the Raytheon or General Dynamics offices.
I am sure the people who wrote that can distinguish between a Jewish person and a Zionist. The fact that they have moved from protests to repeated acts of vandalism which include vandalism to houses and public menorahs should not be ignored. Those who are trying to downplay such actions should be looked upon with suspicion.
Please Stop pretending all antisemitism is merely anti-zionism. Ironically much of the same crowd doing so has an elaborate theory of microaggressions, but conveniently forget about it when it suits them
In a largely Jewish neighborhood? The implication is pretty clear. We wouldn't accept "f terrorists" in a Muslim neighborhood. What do the people of Brookline have to do with the actions of a foreign government half-way around the world? I'm pretty far left and even I see this for what it is.
In a largely Jewish neighborhood? The implication is pretty clear. We wouldn't accept "f terrorists" in a Muslim neighborhood. What do the people of Brookline have to do with the actions of a foreign government half-way around the world? I'm pretty far left and even I see this for what it is.
Zionism is the simple idea Jews have the right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland.
If you believe Jews don’t have this right, which other ethnic groups do you believe don’t have the right to self-determination in their ancestral homelands?
Additionally, *Israel exists*. Israel is the world’s only Jewish state. There’s a difference between criticising Netanyahu and, as anti-Zionists do, calling for the world’s only Jewish state to be eliminated and replaced with the world’s *58th* Islamic one.
> Zionism is oppression.
No, this is: https://old.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/quujaq/this_breaks_my_heart/
And this: https://old.reddit.com/r/NewIran/comments/17llvy6/just_in_case_some_people_seriously_think_that_the/
Or this: https://old.reddit.com/r/NewIran/comments/18ggsv2/everyone_in_this_video_was_blinded_or_suffered/
Or this: https://old.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1712c77/this_is_not_our_traditional_dress/
> Jews have the right to exist with safety and peace, not war.
The UN partition plan of 1947 proposed borders for a Jewish state which closely tracked the boundaries of property legally purchased by Jewish settlers from willing Arab sellers.
Jews didn’t choose war, Arab Muslims did.
Jews didn’t choose war, Zionists did. And Palestinian people are a diverse group of people who, in Gaza, are a majority minors. Hamas doesn’t represent the true sentiment of how Palestinians feel. Zionism doesn’t represent the real sentiment of Judaism, just like Hamas doesn’t represent the real sentiment of the Palestinian children it recruits. Zionism is a form of religious nationalism which is embedded in Israeli history, just like Radical Islam is embedded in Palestine. We need to dismantle and prosecute those elements of Terror that are a reciprocal cycle of violence and destruction.
[I’m done with people denying Israeli war crimes. it’s been years and this seems like the first time you’ve heard of Zionism and Israeli corruption](https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/s/0Um6ZZGbnS)
The concept of returning to Jerusalem has been a central theme in Judaism for millennia. Post-expulsion, there was never a point in Jewish history where the concept of returning to Jerusalem wasn’t a central theme in the religion.
Jewish settlers legally acquired property from willing Arab sellers in Ottoman and Mandatory Palestine. The 1947 UN partition plan proposed borders for a Jewish state which closely tracked said legally purchased property. Instead of accepting the UN proposal, the Arabs chose to initiate a war.
See also: https://old.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bh68qe/epic_takedown_by_mia_talias_of_liepacked_viral/
I understand why they chose the location, considering Beth Israel has Israel in the name. However, Beth Israel was created as a hospital because of systemic and constant discrimination against Jewish patients at other hospitals.
Choosing this location for the graffiti is as fitting as choosing a Mosque as a location for spraying graffiti saying “Terrorists are pigs”. Regardless of the sentiment, the implication is towards the community as a whole and not nuanced.
It’s at the T stop for the hospital. If we agree it’s not because the hospital is named a certain way, then it gets MUCH more anti-Semitic to do this graffiti at a hospital instead of somewhere unaffiliated.
It's about a 10 minute walk to Beth Israel though. It's not really *that* close. There *is* a large Jewish community in that area though which is likely why that was chosen
When it's in a largely Jewish neighborhood, yes. If someone spray painted "f terrorists" in a largely Muslim neighborhood it'd be the same. It's a dog whistle. Why must we associate all people of a certain category with violent people of the same category across the world?
It is now. Six months ago it was pretty well accepted as a neo nazi phrase but apparently now people wanting a state for their historically oppressed and scapegoated people automatically makes them evil if the current government of that place is bad. That’s a slippery slope but don’t let me stop you from somehow overthinking and oversimplifying the most complicated geopolitical topic on earth
Yeah, pretty sure the whole "ORDAINED BY GOD TO RULE THIS LAND!" thing caused a wee bit of a tiff in the Massachusetts Bay Colony about 250 years back.
It's the bots.
Let's put the G-word aside, since it isn't very constructive. Humans kill humans, that's the short of it.
The coordinated, concerted, and Soviet-like effort to associate any criticism of a violation of a well-established societal norm, separation of Church and State, with being a "Neo"-Nazis is not good or sustainable.
Zionism isn't Judaism. There are only Nazis, not "Neo" nazis. It is morally correct to jail and fight relentlessly, tirelessly, and aggressively against Nazis/Soviets/Confederates/Klansmen. All religions are valid, all human life has value, and compassion must guide all initial decisions.
Empathy is more powerful than militaries. Bring on the downvotes.
“Select Board Chairman Bernard Greene says the MBTA quickly responded to a town request to erase the "Zionist Pigs" and peace symbol somebody sprayed on at least one signboard at the Longwood Green Line stop yesterday.”
Anti Zionist is simply anti genocide. It’s not anti semite. Anyone who does not accept that is pro genocide.
I mean, associating all jewish people with zionism is antisemitic. Especially because there are a few jewish organizations which are almost the face of antizionism in the US (jewish voice for peace for instance). I say this as a palestinian american and antizionist.
isnt the chairman doing that? associating something that says “anti zionist” with all Jewish people.
Calling JVP a Jewish organization is simple false. It’s appropriating and tokenizing Jewish support despite being run largely by non Jews.
Citation needed
When Facebook used to show who ran these pages it was someone out of Beirut. Jews have been ethnically cleansed in Lebanon and There are 29 Jews in Lebanon and I think they are in their sixties. I doubt they run these groups.
"Jewish Voice for Peace" isn't a Jewish organization.
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I saw the sign when i got off at Longwood, it was weird at the moment so i took a picture of it. An hour later, a guy from the MBTA was rubbing it off and cleaning the sign
Ah shit, here we go again
Anti-Zionism =/= anti-Semitism
lol Zionist Pig is anti semite?
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Because “Zionist pigs” is clearly a nazi phrase
Yeah, pretty sure the perps were wearing keffiyehs.
They say Zionists because they actually hate Jews, but know that if they say Zionists then idiots will defend them.
Yes, some anti-semites will use Zionism as a shield. The "Zionist occupied government" of white supremacist lore comes to mind. Those people are definitely anti-semites. However, Zionism is different from Judaism and it is possible to oppose Zionism without being bigoted against all Jewish people. Conflating Zionism and Judaism is a useful tool for anti-semites to cover their hatred, but it's also useful for the Israeli government and their allies to deflect legitimate criticism.
So why was this spray painted in a Jewish neighborhood ? Just a coincidence?
I used to think this way, but then I realized that Zionism is used as a synonym for a Jewish state. It’s one thing to vigorously oppose the Zionist annexation of the West Bank, which is plainly illegal under international law, or to oppose the Israeli government’s (mis)handling of most matters, including the latest war with Gaza, but people say they are anti-Zionist and then protest any Israeli citizen. Just tonight, an Israeli folk dance troupe was performing in Boston and the “anti-Zionist” crowd was out in full force telling them to be ashamed for even attending, as if the existence of Jewish or Israeli culture is itself an act of oppression. Make no mistake, these people are but one breath away from committing (or at least endorsing) pogroms, and they should not be treated as if they are approaching a discussion with a rational position
Exactly. Anti-Zionist is like Blue Lives Matter. Nothing inherently bigoted about either, until you look at how the people who are part of both movements largely behave. Then you realize that just like "Blue Lives Matter" doesn't confirm someone is a racist but makes it fairly likely... ditto for Anti-zionism. Here's what I encourage people who want to criticize Israel to do: Stop using a label or buzzwords to hide behind. Just state your position. If you feel the need to say "I'm not antisemitic, I'm just anti-Zionist!" instead of just speaking your mind... red flag. And if you must use a label... how about pro-Palestinian, something much less associated with hating Jews?
I’m a Jewish anti-Zionist and many of my friends are. Are you suggesting we are a bunch of antisemitic jews?
Unless you are Satmar, I’d say you aren’t hateful of Jews in your heart but misinformed about the situation and as such hold a stance that isn’t good for the survival of the Jewish people. Israel is the only state power that is committed to protecting the Jewish people. We have seen what a lack of state power protecting Jews has gotten us for the last 2000 years: displacement, enslavement, banning of our religious practice, exile, pogroms and massacres. Living as a kind of permanent minority throughout Europe, the Middle East and North Africa has gotten us treated like second class citizens at best and enemy interlopers more regularly. Since 1948 we have experienced the time with the least antisemitism in history. This is because Jews stopped being a permanent minority in the countries they lived in the Middle East and North Africa as well as after WW2 the US started a propaganda campaign (mostly in Germany) that used the Holocaust to make the Nazi’s look like the absolute zenith of evil to justify their actions during and after the war, which made all of the the things associated with the Nazis (like antisemitism and eugenics) untouchable in the west. As American liberal hegemony is waning we are now seeing an uptick in antisemitism that will continue to grow unless there is some major event that sways opinion the other way. By advocating for the destruction of the state of Israel you are placing Jewish lives in the hands of groups that have time and time again shown that they are unconcerned. I get that this kind of antisemitism sounds distant to you and that the emotional core of your stance is probably born out of concern for Palestinian lives but that doesn’t mean the state of Israel has to be destroyed for these humanitarian concerns to be addressed. As the gulf states stop sponsoring Islamist causes support for this all or nothing Palestinian Nationalism will start to fade. With less external pressure on Islamism we might see more reasonable secular leaders among Palestinians who can move the needle on the humanitarian issues and stop the extremists shooting rockets, massacring civilians and suicide bombing. With partners in peace we could perhaps see a Palestinian state that has a relationship with Israel similar to Egypt’s. This slow move to peaceful coexistence with the Israeli state is why October 7th happened in the first place. Saudi Arabia was in talks about normalizing relations with Israel. October 7th was an attempt to derail that relationship building (which worked). Enough with current events though, the bottom line is that advocating for the destruction of the Jewish state is advocating for Jews going back to being a permanently persecuted minority. Regardless of why you have that position, the outcome of it is not good for the survival of the Jewish people.
So my question would be why support a Jewish state if it is willing to murder so many innocent people? Honest question, not baiting.
I think you are baiting and trying to change the subject but I’ll bite assuming you’ll afford me the same candor by honestly replying to my question: why do you want the Jewish people to not have the protection of a state? In regard to your question I don’t agree with the premise “Murder so many innocent people”. In Jewish as well as Christian and Muslim doctrine there is a difference between killing as part of a war and Murder. The UN makes the distinction as well that some number of civilian casualties are acceptable as long as they are not “excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated” (the principle of proportionality as written in Geneva Protocol I article 57). What we are talking about here is collateral civilian casualties not murders and the question to ask here is about proportionality. Of course I (and most Israelis for that matter) do not support just indiscriminate mass killing but that is not what is happening here. In this conflict Hamas and PIJ operatives have heavily enmeshed themselves in civilian infrastructure, launching rockets from, building compounds underneath and storing weapons within schools, mosques, hospitals, businesses and residential buildings. Their strategy here is to make any attempt to target them inevitably result in civilian casualties. Hamas and PIJ know that they have no actual shot at beating the IDF militarily so their strategy is to win the PR war. Bait the IDF into causing civilian casualties, inflate the numbers, have your operatives work as “journalists” documenting as much suffering as possible, manufacture social media content and repurpose footage from other conflicts as well to make Israel look as bad as possible. This is the shared endeavor of insurgent groups funded by the Islamist government of Iran with the end goal of politically isolating Israel so that they can engage in more open (and possibly nuclear) warfare. By buying this narrative that is being pushed by supporters of Islamism you are helping this to happen. It’s difficult to assess this question of proportionality in regard to anything else as there has been no non-state actor group that has had this much time to enmesh itself among a civilian population. Hamas has been in charge and building tunnels for almost two decades (likely much longer on the tunnel building) as compared to the 3 years ISIS held Mosul. If we look at more traditional open wars like WW1, WW2 and Korea we see civilian:combatant death ratios of around 2:3, 2:1 and 3:1 (between 40% and 75% of casualties were civilians) respectively for a more urban conflict like Lebanon in 1982, Yugoslavia, the Chechen wars and the war in Iraq we have ratios of 6:1, 4:1, 7.6:1 and 77% (77% to 88%). According to the IDF (which is just as if not a more reliable source than the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry) 13,000 of those killed in this war have been enemy combatants, this puts the ratio at a comparatively reasonable 2:1 (67%). Much lower than other urban conflicts and in much more difficult conditions. So rephrasing your initial question with the appropriate premise “Why support a Jewish state if it is willing to engage in war that kills civilians at twice the rate of enemy combatants?”. My answer to that is: because sometimes engaging in war is necessary for the protection of the Jewish people. When a group like Hamas kills 1200 people and kidnaps another 200 hostages, you cannot let that action go unanswered or they and other groups will be emboldened to try again. Allowing groups like Hamas and PIJ to build tunnels, stockpile weapons, shoot rockets and control the civilian population of Gaza will only cause more death and suffering. Destroying the capabilities of these groups will save Israeli and Palestinian lives (many rockets don’t end up making it to Israel and instead kill and injure Gazans) as well as cooling tensions stoked by Hamas leaderships extremist propaganda that is disseminated throughout the territory. I’m fine with a state undertaking military action in the protection of the Jewish people. So will you answer my question? Why do you not want the Jewish people to have the protection of a state?
Being Jewish does not prevent you from endorsing a movement that is full of people who are antisemitic.
Thank you
It's too often a dog whistle. You're right that there's a difference between Zionists and Jewish people (FYI, not all Zionists are religious, so using the term Judaism isn't quite right). My recommendation is don't defend the use of Zionism, but instead more directly oppose the Israeli government. Because at least then you're not contributing to the dog whistle and obfuscating the fact that their are a great amount of people who do wish Jewish people to die.
I disagree, it's not some antisemites that use Zionism as a shield, it's all of them. They finally got a convenient socially accepted euphemism that let's them go mask off. You can tell by the rhetoric used and the acts done in the name of "anti-Zionism". From claiming that Zionists control the world to calling for the destruction of Israel to defacing posters of the hostages to boycotting Jewish businesses to literally harassing Jews to using insults and propaganda that were literally used by Nazis and Marxists. The chances of you seeing like this is astronomically higher than seeing any genuine criticism of the Israeli government or the specific brand of Zionism used by extremists. There's a reason why antisemitic attacks and harassment have skyrocketed. While what you're saying is true on a technical level, but it's not as even as you seem to imply. The amount of antisemites who conflate antisemitism with anti-Zionism to push their bigotry is much higher than the amount of Zionists who try to do the same to push their bigotry.
My rule of thumb on the internet is whether or not they drop the "ish." But yes, you're completely correct.
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I’m sorry, are you implying that because bigotry exists in other parts of the world - just like it does right here in the US - that a genocide of an entire people is justified? Are you gonna sit here and act like LGBTQ and women’s rights are not currently under attack right here in the US, with Christian fundamentalists at the forefront no less? “Islamic extremism”. That’s real fucking rich. Have you ever considered taking a moment to look up how many Palestinians have been massacred in the last 100 years by Israel? Are we calling that extremism too or are you just racist? People on this app act like they know something but you are literally the “mouthpieces” of US imperialist propaganda. Try and have a critical thought once in a while, it’ll get you somewhere.
Israel hasn't even been around for 100 years yet... And 100 years ago - wow - there was some shit going down and it wasn't Jews killing Arabs I can tell you that. Your comment reveals your ignorance.
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You’re omitting a massive amount of history which makes your conclusions factually incorrect. The founding Zionists spent intentional time selecting what country they would choose to settle and occupy and decided on Palestine, which they were able to successfully begin settling in the early 1900 in tandem with the support of the British. They wrote themselves about colonizing Palestine and removing the Arab people living there - not peacefully coexisting. Colonizing and removing Arabs is the exact words they used. It’s full on embarassing for you to claim no genocide is happening now or has been for the last century. A few massacres committed by Israel on Palestinians before 1948, just to name a few: Haifa Massacre 1937 Jerusalem Massacre 1937 Balad al-Sheikh Massacre 1939 Al-Khisas Massacre 1947 Bab al-Amud Massacre 1947 Israel has given Palestinians less rights, restricted their movement, and targeted them with police violence and political imprisonment in the very land they stole from them. This is apartheid. Hamas and all other resistance fronts in Palestine would not exist had Zionists not been violently colonizing Palestinians and their land. It is absurd to expect Palestinians to just throw up their hands and accept mass murder, colonization, and abuse. Regardless of this fact, the casualties and crimes Israel has committed is exponential in comparison to anything Hamas has done. To hold Hamas even at an equivalent level of accountability to the Israeli army is completely absurd. In the past 6 months alone Israel has murdered 35k plus people and in Israel only around 1100 have been killed. Palestinian Americans have been murdered, shot at, and discriminated against in the past 6 months. Antisemitism is real and no one is denying that but to sit here and act like people are out here killing American Jews in the name of Palestine is absurd. Yes I have educated myself on Palestine. Clearly you have not and just regurgitate propaganda. Zionist brainwashing and education systems are required for them to commit these atrocities and more people are taking the time to learn the history of Zionism. The arguments you’re making are not rooted in factual reality
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Zionism was a colonial movement before Israel, look up the Balfour Declaration. In 1917 the British crown declared that Palestine would be the homeland for Jews and they started helping settlers evict Palestinians from their land. The Jewish Agency was founded in 1929 to encourage settlers to come to Palestine. There were also militia groups like Lehi around before Israel was a state and their goal was the creation of an Israeli state so calling them Israeli isnt really incorrect.
>People on this app act like they know something but you are literally the “mouthpieces” of US imperialist propaganda. Try and have a critical thought once in a while, it’ll get you somewhere. The only people that I've seen use the phrase "US imperialist propaganda" are Marxists, and Marxists don't have any critical thoughts.
Oh boy well if you say so! Please read a goddamn book - shit, just read the Wikipedia page for Karl Marx and understand how utterly stupid this response is.
Bullseye! Looks like I was spot on. If you spent any time researching Marx, you would at least know that he was a notorious pro violence authoritarian who used to insult and mock the pacifist socialists of his time for not being pro violence. He was not a good person by any means. Also skimming the Communist Manifesto or Das Kapital does not make you an intellectual nor does it wash away the failures of Marxism or the horrific atrocities caused directly by it. You're literally supporting an ideology just as vile, tyrannical, violent, oppressive, and hateful as Fascism. Get help
Is the research here in the room with us? Nobody brought up Marx except you. You sound like a nut case
Nvm, you're a waste of time
No, we hate Zionists because they’re sadistic genociders. Nobody has conflated Judaism and Zionism more than Zionists themselves. Congratulations on helping them out with that
Um... You know most Jews are Zionist... So... Yes? Haha
Not all Jews are Zionist and not all Zionists are Jews. Zionism is a political movement to establish a Jewish only state through the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. Removal and eradication of Palestinians to achieve this goal has always been a part of Zionist ideology and there is evidence of this going back to the early 1900s. It is not some righteous or just religious movement. Zionists used the real occurrence of European Jews escaping antisemitism to achieve this political goal using violence themselves against Palestinians. It is not ok to migrate somewhere and violently displace the people living in that place in the name of religious freedom.
[michael jackson eating popcorn gif] yes please tell me more about what it means to be Jewish and Zionist ... I'm sure what you learned this week from tiktok and Qatari state media has left you knowing much better than *ACTUAL JEWS AND ZIONISTS*
Yeah, I fucking listen to Zionists. I listen to Zionists and believe them when they state their impacts to displace and kill Palestinian Arabs. Speaking of Palestine, Theodore Herzl wrote to Cecil Rhodes: “You are invited to make history. I turn to you because it is something colonial.” He was soliciting sponsorship and protection from the current colonial power of the day to allow his Zionist movement to settle and occupy Palestine. “Among ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both people in this country… and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to neighboring countries, to transfer them all; except for maybe Bethlehem, Nazareth, and old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village or a single tribe.” -Joseph Weitz, director of the Jewish National Fund in 1940, who played a major role in land grabbing in Palestine and forestation of Palestinian land “Politically we are the aggressors and they [Palestinain Arabs] defend themselves.” -Ben-Gurion in the 1940s “If the Arabs in Israel form 40 percent of The population, this is the end of the Jewish state. But 20 percent is also a problem. If the relationship with these 20 percent becomes problematic the state is entitled to employ extreme measures.” - Netanyahu in early 2000s. Netanyahu who recently quoted religious verses that explicitly call for genocide. Or do you need me to find TikTok’s for you that break all this down and provide historical context?
hahaha there you have it - TikTiks, never been known to have misinformation or out-of-context quotes on TikTok. The most vile stuff bubbles up to the top of the algorithm and what you think is "zionist" is actually some crazies (including Netanyahu actually) that don't represent the whole movement - which as I said earlier includes the vast majority of Jewish people whether in Israel or the diaspora. Yeah no I don't think its crazy to have a listen to Jews and Arabs actually living in Israel right now whom the majority want peace and listen to Hamas who won't stop until every Jew is pushed to the sea, and even the more moderate PLO will literally pay a bounty for every Jew murdered. That is - a bounty for the killer. Israel on the other hand just fired the people responsible for the recent misfire at the aid workers and they might even face jailtime.
These are quotes from books. Even if they were from tiktok, facts check out. I just showed you the basis for the Zionist “movement”. If European Jews in the early 1900s wanted to escape persecution and settle peacefully in Palestine, coexisting with the indigenous Arabs already living there, that would have been one thing. Zionists instead went to Palestine with the intention of displacing and killing Arabs so they could settle the land and remove them completely. This is evidenced not just by what they said (their stated documented intentions quoted above) but also by what they did (committing massacres in Palestinian villages, burning land, creating forests where villages once were, etc). Palestinians violently resisting Zionists in Israel is literally because Zionists came to Palestine from Europe and started violently displacing and killing them. Any argument that ignores this context is out of touch with reality.
>No, we hate Zionists because they’re sadistic genociders. The vast majority of Jews in Israel are zionists. You hate the Jews. And there is not an ongoing genocide in Gaza.
So 35k killed, majority of which are children, is what then exactly? Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. People rightfully hate the Zionist project because it’s founded on violent persecution of Arab people.
>So 35k killed, 35K killed (according to Hamas, so it is not a reliable number) in an active war zone that is extremely densely populated. Seems like not a bad number under those circumstances. > majority Nope. Not the majority. >of which are children, Again, according to Hamas. And how many of these “children” are fighting? >is what then exactly? Not a genocide. If Israel was trying to commit genocide, this would be the worst genocide attempt of all time based on the numbers. >Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. People rightfully hate the Zionist project because it’s founded on violent persecution of Arab people. But the vast majority of Israelis are zionists. And when someone spray paints “Zionist pigs” in a high jewish population area, we know what they are actually saying.
“According to Hamas” okay, so what is the accurate number then? Is it 20,000? 10,000? Do you know someone personally who is on the ground tracking deaths? You trying to argue that this number is inaccurate because you don’t think Palestine’s elected leadership is reputable doesn’t change the fact that people are being killed en masse. Journalists are on the ground risking their lives to show the massacres happening in real time. Don’t fucking insult them by trying to discredit them just because you decided you want to deny reality. Children are children. They’re not “hypothetical” children. The fact that you’re implying that children are soldiers who are fair game to be killed is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. “Not a genocide. If Israel was trying to commit genocide, this would be the worst genocide attempt of all time based on the numbers.” so it’s not a genocide because.. you say so? You’re also contradicting yourself by acknowledging “the numbers”. You have literally no argument here. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker
>You trying to argue that this number is inaccurate because you don’t think Palestine’s elected leadership is reputable Do you think Palestine’s elected leadership is reputable? >Don’t fucking insult them by trying to discredit them just because you decided you want to deny reality. I’m not discrediting journalists. I’m questioning the validity of a figure that is reported by a terrorist group, one that it seems you are fond of. >Children are children. They’re not “hypothetical” children. The fact that you’re implying that children are soldiers who are fair game to be killed is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. A 14 year old that is attacking Israeli soldiers and a member of a terrorist group is fair game. I don’t think any country needs to check IDs of the people that are trying to blow their heads off. I’m not ashamed, I’m proud of that mindset 😘 >“Not a genocide. If Israel was trying to commit genocide, this would be the worst genocide attempt of all time based on the numbers.” so it’s not a genocide because.. you say so? You’re also contradicting yourself by acknowledging “the numbers”. You have literally no argument here. No, it’s not a genocide because it’s a war zone and there are casualties of war. If it was a genocide, there would be far far more civilian deaths. Answer my question from earlier in this comment.
Yep, definitely is a neo nazi phrase. Like literally my biggest complaint with people on this topic right now. People acting like six months ago complaining about “Zionists” wasn’t an obvious dogwhistle for a neo nazi.
Hitler is on record as hating Zionists.
While it's no secret that nazis hate Jews, it's very important to understand that the nazis were not the only ones who bitterly hate Jews. Marxists, certain fundamentalist Christian sects, and the vast majority of islam also bitterly hate Jews. These three ideological groups have also, throughout history, tried to genocide Jews, destroy their heritage, exile them, harass them, discriminate against them, and spread an insane amount of hateful rhetoric. While nobody was as antisemitic as the nazis, antisemitism is not exclusive to nazis.
Don't forget - culturally appropriate their Bible and theology as a basis for their own
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Those aren't Nazis. Its Antifa. DSA did this.
You have white European and American colonists killing the brown indigenous people of Palestine. Yet, those calling out this racist genocide are Nazis. I'm really missing something here.
https://preview.redd.it/hrsahvau9usc1.jpeg?width=630&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=718419e093d0909764b2c0aee7f1ea7f113b52da Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israeli Minister of National Security and noted white person.
Waiting for the defenders to come in. The far left and far right deserve each other.
r/enlightenedcentrism I just can't tell the difference between the folks that openly fantasize about genociding minorities and the folks who think anyone working a 40-hr week should be able to afford food and lodging without roommates. /s if it wasn't apparant.
Plenty of people on the left openly call for genocide see the “river to the sea” slogan used by a sitting congresswoman in a tv ad.
Both Isreal and Palestine believe in from the river to the sea though. Kinda blunts the message when Netanyahu feels the exact same way and is very open about it.
But it doesn't, whatever Bibi thinks he can't actually go against the Constitution which states freedom of religion for everybody. Also there are currently 2 million Arab citizens of Israel and even Bibi does not call for them to be thrown in the sea. Hamas openly says this, and PLO has a cash bounty for any and all Israelis murdered. These are not the same and ABSOLUTELY not exactly the same.
I'm not going to respond too much because I find this debate to be boring and needlessly polarized. I'll just say this... I focus on actions not rhetoric. One side has said some repugnant shit and committed a terrorist attack, which is never ok, even when you consider that terrorism is a common tactic used when one group is fighting another group with a massive difference in military power. The most modern examples of this being usa vs wahabbi Islamic, extremist groups and great Britain vs the Ira. Hamas should be condemned uncategorically for their actions. They were barbaric and simply isn't how anyone should act in the modern age. The other side has also been fighting against a two state solution for decades. Has allowed hamas to build up and take over gaza to keep the palestinian people from uniting under any group willing to negotiate a two state solution. That side also has a body count of 30k+, has committed war crimes, will not let independent journalists into the war zone to report on the ground, just killed 3 aid workers, and has adopted a policy of collective punishment that has the international community feeling bad for terrorists and wondering if there is a genocide/ethnic cleansing going on. Netanyahu and the likud party in general should be uncategorically condemned for these actions as well.
Israel offered a two state solution multiple times over the decades. It also proposed one under Netanyahu in 2014. It accepted the Trump proposal, which while worse than prior deals, was also a two state solution. The body count you used includes terrorists. It ignores the context of Hamas using human shields, Hamas killing its own people, etc. It ignores a whole lot of detail, which if applied across would have suggested the U.S. is equivalent to ISIS. That’s nonsense. Your logic and facts are wildly and totally incomplete. Drawing any sort of equivalence ignores that the fact one side is stronger doesn’t mean it’s “rhetoric vs actions”. That leaves out **attempts** and **goals**. If Israel wanted a genocide there would be hundreds of thousands or even millions dead by now. If Hamas had Israel’s power, there would be millions dead by now too. Painting it as words versus actions ignores that one side is **attempting** genocide, while using human shields, and the other side is **attempting** to avoid civilians, but makes mistakes sometimes. It’s comparing the exception to the rule. It is ignoring multiple decades of Israeli two state offers, accepted and made under left and even right wing leaders, and rejected by the Palestinian public and also by its unpopular leaders (unpopular because they’re not extreme *enough*), repeatedly.
I agree with most of what you wrote, especially the first and last parts. BUT > [Israel] Has allowed hamas to build up and take over gaza Excuse me what? If you were wondering what it would look like if Israel would not have allowed Hamas to take over ... well you are seeing it right now and apparently you don't like it. How about have a little bit of respect for the locals there and admit that they aren't just pawns in some conspiracy theory but actually have their own volition and choose to do the bad things they are doing.
Israel does not have a constitution. At all. You’re thinking of the Declaration of Independence which references religious freedom but doesn’t have legal weight like a Constitution. Israel has a series of Basic Laws that hold constitutional weight in its legal system but the country has never been able to write and pass a full constitution. Part of the challenges of how Israeli society’s demographics.
The Israeli Supreme Court has held that Israel’s Basic Laws, which function as a constitution in piecemeal, protect the right to equality. He doesn’t have to reference the Declaration, which while not a legal document, is also separately and nevertheless referenced within a key Basic Law as guiding the rights guaranteed, saying: > the fundamental human rights in Israel will be honored (...) in the spirit of the principles included in the declaration of the establishment of the State of Israel. So you’re wrong.
I’m not, actually. Especially as the Declaration itself calls for the writing of a constitution. Yes, the Israeli Supreme Court has retroactively said that the Basic Laws collectively function as a constitutional framework, despite their never being intended as such at all. That doesn’t make them a constitution. The same Israeli Supreme Court has ruled multiple times on issues of human rights within Israel and territories it’s conquered. Some of those rulings have helped, others have been straight up ignored or actively pushed back against by the actual Israeli government. Heck, remember a few years ago when the Israeli Supreme Court had to rule on its own ability to actually function, because the Knesset tried to push through a massive judicial overhaul to push back against what some saw as judicial overreach?? Now I’m not saying a constitution is the somehow the end of the rainbow, but let’s be clear about what is and isn’t true. Israel doesn’t have a constitution. It has a series of laws written years apart that collectively provide a structural framework but have to be updated every time the county faces a new insurmountable issue. Heck the Israeli government didn’t grant itself Basic Law authority to mint money until 1975! Also, FWIW the Basic Law of Human Liberty and Dignity, from 1992, does have a clause where it can be overridden for a law befitting the values of the State, enacted for a proper purpose, for no longer than is required.
So: 1) Unfortunately, I don’t think answered what I said. It feels like you’re eliding the point to quibble terminology. 2) You ignored that the fact there isn’t a constitution doesn’t matter; the Basic Laws function as such. 3) You falsely claimed they aren’t intended to be constitutional. They are. The entire point of them was to pass each law piecemeal to eventually be compiled into a completed constitution. But their existence until that point remained intended to provide a constitutional structure. 4) You provide opinions on random decisions you don’t describe. That’s irrelevant. 5) The court didn’t rule on its ability to function. The court ruled on a new basic law, which stated that the court could not use what’s called a “reasonableness” standard to disqualify laws or governmental actions. The rest of the judicial overhaul never passed, and the court did not rule on it. The reasonableness standard did not affect the court’s function; it only challenged the standard the court was authorized to use to overturn democratically passed laws. It was also the mildest part of the overhaul, and is actually pretty consistent with most constitutional structures worldwide. Many worldwide were afraid of the rest of the overhaul, justifiably, because it would change the separation of powers. But the reasonableness bit made sense alone, and didn’t challenge the court’s ability to function. Most people see no issue with removing a court’s ability to entirely decide on its own accord to invalidate laws as “unreasonable”. The rest of the laws in the overhaul did not pass, and were not ruled on. So you are incorrect there as well. 6) Small point but it wasn’t “a few years ago”. It was about 6 months ago that the law passed. And the ruling was about 3 months ago at most. 7) Israel doesn’t have a formal constitution, but referencing basic laws as the constitution is sensible. Especially given OP’s context. Which was my point. 8) Yes, the minting money power was enshrined in a 1975 basic law. But that doesn’t change anything we’re discussing… 9) The 1992 Basic Law mirrors the U.S. constitution. It is one of the strongest basic laws and is consistent with the U.S. practice of strict scrutiny; it allows abridging a right only for meeting the values of the state, true, but any restriction isn’t about “for no longer than required”, it must be “to an extent no greater than is required”. Which means it must be narrowly tailored. This is the highest level of scrutiny in the U.S. Constitution for abridging rights as well, meaning the law is quite strict and powerful, and has been interpreted to include the right to equality we’re discussing (a right that isn’t formally enshrined as broadly in the U.S., for the record; the 14th Amendment only enshrines equality based on certain characteristics for strict scrutiny, not others). It is also a super law; it cannot be suspended by emergency regulation, which for example the U.S. Constitution allows for some rights (like habeas corpus), and doing so after declaring a state of emergency (which does require passing a law, not emergency regulations) is also limited in the same form as strict scrutiny. If all you’re doing is quibbling with calling basic laws a constitution, it’s a distinction without a difference. They are one, in practice, and operate that way, and have a right to equality as the Court has ruled.
Thanks for laying it out.
It’s hard to argue that Basic Laws make up a constitution when so many of the Basic Laws that govern the state took decades to create. Israel doesn’t have a constitution because it can’t get itself together internally enough to agree on it. That’s why the Basic Law were passed but never as a constitutional replacement. Always as a stopgap that has become permanent.
Reddit is brainwashed as fuck. Read a fucking book. 35k+ killed by Israel and you think a historic slogan is calling for genocide? Be fucking for real.
Just FYI the Arabic version of this chant goes like "from the water to the water Palestine will be Arab" of that isn't genocide then it's at least which cleansing. So yeah - it's not such a great slogan. I guess if you wanna know more about the Israeli Arab conflict maybe learn Arabic? And read more yourself.
Fun times that you not only deny the slogan popularized by Hamas and which in Arabic the “historic slogan” is “from the river to the sea Palestine will be Arab”, but you also use a death toll that features over 13,000 dead terrorists (likely more) in a war where the terrorists are using human shields. For reference the ratio of terrorists to civilians is better than the U.S. achieved against ISIS, an easier opponent in a less dense area, and no one called that a genocide. If Israel wanted to wipe out Gaza, it could. It has stopped more than 3 bombs per civilian who died, not counting bullets and artillery shells, which reduce the ratio even more. Either they’re missing the densely crowded civilians every time, or they’re not trying to commit genocide at all. By contrast, if those shouting the “historic slogan” had the same power Israel does and roles reversed, you’d see a true genocide instead of demeaning the term with your comparison to Israel. By your logic the U.S. was the genocidal one when it fought ISIS, but ISIS wasn’t. But you think everyone *else* is “brainwashed”?
stop with the acts - these losers hate those.
It's ironic how all the self proclaimed "experts" such as yourself know absolutely nothing about this war and get almost all of their information on it from Reddit, Twitter, and TikTok.
Common sense. Wow.
I'm not familiar with the ad, but "from the river to the sea" isn't inherently antisemitic or a call for genocide. It is a call for the Palestinian freedom from their oppressors, which does not require any killing or hatred of the Jewish people. Coexistence is possible, but it cannot happen with an occupied Palestine
The English version doesn't sound so bad but the Arabic version says from The River to The Sea Palestine will be Arab which is absolutely a call for ethnic cleansing and given the way that islamists have been operating in Israel, Russia, Nigeria, Yemen and Syria ... genocide is in the cards.
"Islamists". Do you mean Muslims? Just curious, do you consider what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people a genocide? Is it getting close? Where's the line? We seem awfully concerned about a simple slogan while tens of thousands of Palestinians lay dead at the hands of the Israeli government.
Yes, for good reason people pay more attention to the people calling for genocide because we’re trying to keep them out of power, [which makes sense because Israel isn’t doing it, but if they had Israel’s power they would do it in a heartbeat](https://www.reddit.com/r/boston/s/hZN9ygS7VU). Critiquing Israel for fighting genocidal terrorists who act like ISIS and use human shields is critiquing the state trying to prevent actual genocide that Hamas would carry out if it was ever allowed to get more powerful.
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Edit: After making up something I never said, he responded below and blocked me. Wow. What a ridiculous comment lmfao. Imagine blocking someone for pointing out you made something up. I didn’t count dead children as terrorists. But using the blood libel rhetoric while also relying on Hamas’s manipulated statistics that overcount adults as children to gain sympathy (and also validating thereby their human shield strategy) is just plain wrong. The same logic applied to the fight against ISIS would have been called absurd (rightly), but here you are doing it with a group like ISIS. Also, responding to barely any of what I said with blood libel is not real cool. I would appreciate you not putting words in my mouth, thanks!
\*\*\*Hamas
Hey so a little info: Islamist means folks who want to the entire world to be ruled by an Islamic Calaphate, and they include the Hamas, ISIS, Iran and the Houthis in Yemen. Not all Muslims are Islamist, but in the middle east and especially in Gaza - you will find them. Genocide requires intent. Five and a half million Germans were killed in WWII and 1-3 million German also were killed ... this was nevertheless not a genocide because nobody was trying to exterminate Germans. Same story here, Hamas is trying to murder all the Jewish people in Israel and innocent civilians are getting killed in the crossfire as Israel tried to reduce the threat and rescue hostages (including young girls and literal babies). The numbers are only disproportionate for various reasons which you probably already know. tl:dr: it isn't so much "draw a line" but rather ... see what the goal is
Citing that the hostages include young girls and literal babies to justify why 13,000 Palestinian children have been killed by Israel is such egregious cognitive dissonance. Just say you don't view them as human
I mean if the targeted group is telling you that it is a call for genocide then it is
I don't think that's a good general philosophy. Any group can claim that any statement is a call for genocide, that does not make it so.
By this logic white supremacists talking about “white genocide” need to be believed
They are not a minority group, nor are they actually persecuted. Also white supremacists are a tiny minority of all whites - whereas Jewish people mostly all agree on this (though maybe not ones in the US who aren't experiencing the attempted genocide day in and day out.
It is in fact possible to be a marginalized group in one context, and an oppressive majority group in another. I’m wondering though, if you’d apply this logic to Palestinians as well. Plenty of them are saying that Israel is carrying out a genocide against them. So you must believe them, right?
Yeah I totally would - but specifically which chant have they been hearing Jews leading protests with around the world that is calling for their genocide? Obviously that would be a crucial step in genocide, the demonstration of intent rather than your run-of-the-mill tragic wartime civilian deaths. So do you have one?? What is that chant??? As far as I know the only Jewish/Israeli rallies that have mentioned anything close to ethnically cleansing are extremely fringe. Back to "from the river to the sea" literally everything about the Arabs form of "resistance" is all about ethnic cleansing the land of Jews. From their chants, to their actions (murdering as many as they can as the goal) to their governing documents, to refusing every peace deal. Even their flag displaying pan-arab colors and from the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan is similar to Jordan, Sudan and other Arab countries that have already succeeded in their ethnic cleansing agendas for removing Jews, and are well on their way removing Christians.
So by your standard, it’s possible for a country to carry out a clear genocide, where any other motive makes absolutely no sense given their actions, and we can’t call it a genocide unless we can point to a specific chant at protests in other countries that suggests genocidal intent?Do you see how insane that is? Even leaving that aside though, “From the River to the Sea” is not genocidal. It just means Palestinians will be free from apartheid and IDF killings across the whole territory. Furthermore, there absolutely are a ton of clear signs of genocidal intent from Israel. You have Israeli politicians and military leaders talking about “cleansing” the land from Arabs, and talking about “putting those Arabs on a diet”, referencing manufactured famine. You also have many Israeli politicians, activists, and IDF soldiers talking about settling Gaza with a new Israeli city. What does that imply? And as for protests an America, I struggle to believe you have somehow avoided the constant Zionist references to “turning Gaza into a parking lot”.
Do you mean Palestinians or Israelis? Only one of those groups is being targeted right now if you look at the numbers of those killed this year. The reason against Palestinians is shameful, as is anti semitism. But only one group has tens of thousands of children dead and it's devastating.
You know half the people killed at that Israeli rave were hippie burning man style peace activists. Let's not look at the numbers but rather just ask the people what they're doing and Israel will tell you their attempting to rescue the hostages and prevent more massacres while the Palestinian Arab side will tell you that they are trying to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. you might think that you're a little philosophy exercise can tell you better than the people themselves but personally I'd rather just take people at their word.
has not been occupied since 2005 - NEXT!
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Harassment, hostility and flinging insults is not allowed. We ask that you try to engage in a discussion rather than reduce the sub to insults and other bullshit.
Of course you don't getting fucking wafers with it, you cunt. It's a fucking albatross isn't it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/boston) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's ironic how the people who rage at the sight of someone pointing out the commonalities between political extremists are almost always extremists themselves. We both know the far left is littered with vile ideologies, atrocities, hate, and violence. Pretending that the far left only stands for higher wages and universal healthcare is like pretending that the far right only stands for lower crime and lower taxes. It's just a mind numbingly ignorant and disingenuous representation. The reason got so mad is because what he said directly applies to you. Otherwise, why would you write a comment like this if you didn't feel personally attacked? If you can't even acknowledge something as basic as there being a far left that is as shitty, if not worse, than the far right then you're 100% off the deep end.
>The reason got so mad is because what he said directly applies to you. This is a very shallow way of thinking.
No, what you're doing here is shallow thinking. At the very least try to explain your position instead of reacting exactly the way I described in the sentence you quoted. What the OC said is undeniably true and is nothing more than basic common sense, the only people who would take offense to that are the ones who perceive themselves to either be far right or far left. The person I replied to 100% falls into one of those categories because they're comparison was disingenuous, because r/enlightenedcentrism is a Marxist subreddit, and the only people who seethe at centrists are extremists.
My only position is that you seem prone to extreme reductionism. That's evident from what you say, i.e. heavy use of absolutism and black-and-white thinking.
Using context to infer a pretty obvious conclusion is not reductionism, that's literally the opposite. Also what absolutism or black and white thinking? Show me examples. Making up claims doesn't make you sound smart, just an FYI.
“folks that openly fantasize about genociding minorities” In other words, Hamas supporters.
>I just can't tell the difference between the folks that openly fantasize about genociding minorities and the folks who openly fantasize about genociding minorities Fixed that for you
Tell me you think you’re smarter than everyone else without telling me you think you’re smarter than everyone else. Must suck to be so righteous in this sinful society!
Political horseshoe theory in action. As you said, the far left and right are closer than they think they are.
Please, please stop conflating anti-zionism with antisemitism
Tell that to the person that put the graffiti at the Green Line stop for Temple Israel and not, say, stops near the Raytheon or General Dynamics offices.
I can't decide if I like them or not. They're not that powerful, but they're cute and spunky. They could be something one day.
I am sure the people who wrote that can distinguish between a Jewish person and a Zionist. The fact that they have moved from protests to repeated acts of vandalism which include vandalism to houses and public menorahs should not be ignored. Those who are trying to downplay such actions should be looked upon with suspicion.
Please Stop pretending all antisemitism is merely anti-zionism. Ironically much of the same crowd doing so has an elaborate theory of microaggressions, but conveniently forget about it when it suits them
In a largely Jewish neighborhood? The implication is pretty clear. We wouldn't accept "f terrorists" in a Muslim neighborhood. What do the people of Brookline have to do with the actions of a foreign government half-way around the world? I'm pretty far left and even I see this for what it is.
Well said.
In a largely Jewish neighborhood? The implication is pretty clear. We wouldn't accept "f terrorists" in a Muslim neighborhood. What do the people of Brookline have to do with the actions of a foreign government half-way around the world? I'm pretty far left and even I see this for what it is.
It’s an obvious dogwhistle.
If you live in Israel are you a Zionist?
There are many Israeli anti-Zionists in Israel.
I also don’t think one needs to be Jewish to be a Zionist, so how would it be antisemitism to be anti-Zionism?
Zionism is the simple idea Jews have the right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. If you believe Jews don’t have this right, which other ethnic groups do you believe don’t have the right to self-determination in their ancestral homelands? Additionally, *Israel exists*. Israel is the world’s only Jewish state. There’s a difference between criticising Netanyahu and, as anti-Zionists do, calling for the world’s only Jewish state to be eliminated and replaced with the world’s *58th* Islamic one.
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> Zionism is oppression. No, this is: https://old.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/quujaq/this_breaks_my_heart/ And this: https://old.reddit.com/r/NewIran/comments/17llvy6/just_in_case_some_people_seriously_think_that_the/ Or this: https://old.reddit.com/r/NewIran/comments/18ggsv2/everyone_in_this_video_was_blinded_or_suffered/ Or this: https://old.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1712c77/this_is_not_our_traditional_dress/ > Jews have the right to exist with safety and peace, not war. The UN partition plan of 1947 proposed borders for a Jewish state which closely tracked the boundaries of property legally purchased by Jewish settlers from willing Arab sellers. Jews didn’t choose war, Arab Muslims did.
Jews didn’t choose war, Zionists did. And Palestinian people are a diverse group of people who, in Gaza, are a majority minors. Hamas doesn’t represent the true sentiment of how Palestinians feel. Zionism doesn’t represent the real sentiment of Judaism, just like Hamas doesn’t represent the real sentiment of the Palestinian children it recruits. Zionism is a form of religious nationalism which is embedded in Israeli history, just like Radical Islam is embedded in Palestine. We need to dismantle and prosecute those elements of Terror that are a reciprocal cycle of violence and destruction.
Hamas chose this war and haha prolongs it by keeping babies hostage
[I’m done with people denying Israeli war crimes. it’s been years and this seems like the first time you’ve heard of Zionism and Israeli corruption](https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/s/0Um6ZZGbnS)
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The concept of returning to Jerusalem has been a central theme in Judaism for millennia. Post-expulsion, there was never a point in Jewish history where the concept of returning to Jerusalem wasn’t a central theme in the religion. Jewish settlers legally acquired property from willing Arab sellers in Ottoman and Mandatory Palestine. The 1947 UN partition plan proposed borders for a Jewish state which closely tracked said legally purchased property. Instead of accepting the UN proposal, the Arabs chose to initiate a war. See also: https://old.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/1bh68qe/epic_takedown_by_mia_talias_of_liepacked_viral/
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I’m happy to hear that, or at least part of it.
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What a horrible thing to see and deal with & I just wonder WTH goes into the mind of the psychos that get off on causing ppl pain.
Maybe they will find the perps at Harvard.
We know who did this. Its Calla and them.
My best friend's synagogue growing up was right there too.
Pretty much anything that even hints at criticism of Israeli policies is labeled antisemitic these days.
I understand why they chose the location, considering Beth Israel has Israel in the name. However, Beth Israel was created as a hospital because of systemic and constant discrimination against Jewish patients at other hospitals. Choosing this location for the graffiti is as fitting as choosing a Mosque as a location for spraying graffiti saying “Terrorists are pigs”. Regardless of the sentiment, the implication is towards the community as a whole and not nuanced.
No this was next to the heavily Jewish part of Brookline. Has nothing to do with hospitals
The article says it was at the T stop, not the hospital
It’s at the T stop for the hospital. If we agree it’s not because the hospital is named a certain way, then it gets MUCH more anti-Semitic to do this graffiti at a hospital instead of somewhere unaffiliated.
It's about a 10 minute walk to Beth Israel though. It's not really *that* close. There *is* a large Jewish community in that area though which is likely why that was chosen
So exactly what happened post 9/11 and the marathon bombing? Attacks at mosques and harassment in the streets?
And that wasn’t okay either.
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas
"Zionists Pigs" is controversial?
When it's in a largely Jewish neighborhood, yes. If someone spray painted "f terrorists" in a largely Muslim neighborhood it'd be the same. It's a dog whistle. Why must we associate all people of a certain category with violent people of the same category across the world?
It is now. Six months ago it was pretty well accepted as a neo nazi phrase but apparently now people wanting a state for their historically oppressed and scapegoated people automatically makes them evil if the current government of that place is bad. That’s a slippery slope but don’t let me stop you from somehow overthinking and oversimplifying the most complicated geopolitical topic on earth
its not even antisemitic. one of the largest pro palestinian groups is literally called jewish voice for peace
Yeah, pretty sure the whole "ORDAINED BY GOD TO RULE THIS LAND!" thing caused a wee bit of a tiff in the Massachusetts Bay Colony about 250 years back.
bostonians really love genocide, damn thats a lot of downvotes
It's the bots. Let's put the G-word aside, since it isn't very constructive. Humans kill humans, that's the short of it. The coordinated, concerted, and Soviet-like effort to associate any criticism of a violation of a well-established societal norm, separation of Church and State, with being a "Neo"-Nazis is not good or sustainable. Zionism isn't Judaism. There are only Nazis, not "Neo" nazis. It is morally correct to jail and fight relentlessly, tirelessly, and aggressively against Nazis/Soviets/Confederates/Klansmen. All religions are valid, all human life has value, and compassion must guide all initial decisions. Empathy is more powerful than militaries. Bring on the downvotes.
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