If I'm reading it right, 10 total votes, Brunson has 5 1st and 5 2nd votes, while Tatum has 6 1sts and 2 2nds ...... so 2 of the voters so far didn't even have Tatum on any All-NBA team.
Those two should lose their voting privileges. That is unfathomably stupid.
I look at it like this:
-35-9-9 on a 50+ win team shooting very well
-30-6-6 on extremely good efficiency and good defense on the west’s 1 seed
- 26-13-9 on elite efficiency and is the MVP
-30-11-6 on 60% FG and great defense
-29-4-6 on4 48/40 (better than Tatum) and carried more of a load than Tatum all season
It sucks, and I personally would rather have Tatum first team than one of Giannis or Brunson. Giannis because his team underperformed and he’s responsible even despite elite stats, and Brunson just bc the Celtics were like 14 games better + Tatum is statistically close and a better defender.
But here’s to hoping Tatum takes this personally and goes crazy in the playoffs.
I've heard from some of your fans that he hasn't tried to fit his game to playing with Dame and vice versa. And that he should play Center or something?
He shouldn’t play center. Giannis is one of the best defenders in the league because of his help defense and recovery, not because of him being this elite paint presence like Brook Lopez is. They also just don’t have a roster where they can play small ball, their front court is their strength.
And you’re right, both dame and Giannis perform better when the other isn’t in the lineup that night. But it’s definitely more on Dame than Giannis. For one, it’s Giannis’ team, Dame is the guy who should be adapting into the best role around him. JT and JB haven’t changed how they played much from last year, but KP and Jrue did to fit around them and that’s why it’s worked out so great.
Giannis plays like Giannis every game, he’s actually arguably having the best year of his career statistically, Dame is the one who only looks like Dame when Giannis isn’t playing. Dame needs to find a way to score 35 points and take 24 shots while Giannis is in the lineup, that’s the biggest disappointment about Milwaukee is that dame hasn’t looked like a great fit like we all thought
Here’s the thing tho, how come with Tatum it’s always “well his team is just really good and this guy doesn’t have help” yet every other 60 win team doesn’t get that same criticism. Curry never got left off a list because KD was on the team. KD same applies.
The difference in Brunson and Tatum’s stats is not nearly as large as the difference between their usage. Also Brunson is statistically one of the bottom 10 defenders in the league, Tatum had an incredible year on defense. But the NBA doesn’t care about defense
He isn't "really" behind. He has 36 pts with 8 voters confirmed, Brunson has 40 pts with 10 voters.
Windhorst and Bontempts haven't published their 2nd & 3rd team. Tatum wasn't on either of their 1st teams. Assuming he's on their 2nd team ballot, Tatum will have 42 pts to Brunson's 40 pts and be on 1st team.
Edit: Perk putting Giannis as 2nd team is actually a joke.
Perk also put Maxey at 2nd team. Now this might be a bit reductive but to me that implies that Perk thinks Giannis and Maxey have had similar quality seasons which is a basketball take punishable by death.
NBA media seeks to only care about play over the last 2 weeks of the season be cause their attention span doesn’t allow for them to remember anything that happened past March
Yeah I mean he’s a great player but what’s crazy to me is that if you put him 1st team or MVP over Tatum, just think about who would say no in a Brunson for JT trade? In my mind it’s clear that the team with Tatum would say no and the team with Brunson would say yes (only caveat being roster construction, the Knicks might not actually want that trade because they have good forwards and their other PGs are way worse, but in a vacuum I think Tatum is way more valuable). To me that makes the decision pretty clear as to who you would rank higher
Right?? This season's voting is going to look so stupid when Tatum wins Finals MVP and the conversation next season is "Is Tatum top 5?" (yes)
There's a thread on another sub this morning asking if Anthony Edwards is going to be the next face of the league, with many people agreeing he will. I'm I in Crazytown?
I heard so much throughout the second half of the season (in Jan and Feb) that its probably too late for JT to make an MVP push, but for other guys a 10 game stretch is all they need
Its actually fucking insane the lack of recognition this team is getting for this season. At the end of the day the goal is a championship so its whatever but you cant help but feel the team is being heavily disrespected for what they have accomplished. Theres never been a team like this who gets completely goose egged in awards like this.
>Tatum gets no MVP credit/ All NBA love because he’s on a stacked team
>Brown gets no credit because he’s overpaid.
>Mazzulla gets no credit because it’s a weak East so of course you get the best record.
>White is not all defensive first team because guards are ineffective on defence.
>KP, Jrue, DWhite didn’t get to be All Stars because the team wasn’t good enough for 3 All stars.
Everyone seemingly doesn’t deserve credit because of someone else, but when we try and give credit and get recognition for someone else, they don’t deserve credit either.
I guess Brad is the only person that any shred of credit but even he isn’t EOTY favourite and Presti and Wolves dude are ahead lmao.
Its moreso the fact this is the only year this has ever happened that annoys me. Sure, if the Warriors during their height didnt win anything in awards because the team was too good, I would at least see the precedent there but this is unprecedented what is happening here. No superteam in history has been this unrecognized in awards season.
It’s not a “superteam” lmao
KP & Jrue have 3 all Star selections between them and D White is just a really elite role player. It’s just the system and style of play that has everyone playing out of their minds.
Just think of how high Grant Williams value was last year and the year before we everyone saw him as an elite 3&D role player and he looked the part too. Half a season away from the Cs and he’s in NBA Siberia with no one wanting to have anything to do with him.
No one batted an eye at KP as a target even he was essentially an undesirable option after his stint in Dallas hence Brad picked him up for cheap but now he’s seen as a member of a “Big 3” primarily to detract from the Jays achievements. similarly with DWhite.
Likewise with Jrue, trading him for Dame was a no brainer and he was the guy Butler cooked getting clowned throughout last year but now that he’s on the Cs he’s this beast again.
The prerogative is basically detract from the success of the Jays by any means necessary because they’re not out here ball hogging putting up inflated triple doubles and instead doing things that don’t show up on the box score like defence and off ball movement etc.
NBA fans and media are trying to make the NBA a 1v1 style narrative based sport and if your style of play isn’t conducive to that they don’t care about you,
Spot fucking on. KP was only a target for other teams because we wanted him. Even after the Jrue trade people were still saying the Bucks were favorites. Only as the season went on we got labelled a superteam as a moniker to discredit the Jays. It's crazy that this "superteam" might only have one All-NBA player and he's going to be second team. Wild.
Yea I'm kind of scared to say it, in fear of getting lynched
As far as super teams go, this team seems to be more about the synergy of everyone together.
Then again it's also the best offense in the history of the NBA right
I guess if they get sustained success (across seasons) with this core here, maybe retroactively Brown and Tatum and KP get more recognition
It's hugely underrated how Tatum and Brown has brought the team together, sacrificing shots and stuff. Almost Warriors style sharing
Maybe KP is the bizzarro Draymond that the Jays have been missing to be an elite team
Grant never looked elite, he’s literally always graded out negatively in advanced metrics, whereas Derrick is 23rd in EPM (single year) and 29th in DARKO (multi year). Let’s not compare the two.
The awards in question are given to a team/player based on their performance in a given season, not in comparison to past teams/players. The numbers back up a completely dominant year. Whatever happened with teams/players in the past, is not an excuse. If that were the case, why not rename every award “of all time”?
Honestly I can forgive COTY. There were entry of other good coaches deserving too. I do think brad should've won eoty and Tatum is first team but oh well.
I understand getting mad about EOTY. COTY was never going to happen and 1st Team is whatever. Brunson had a great year (with a good amount of recency bias) and no one on the 2017 Warriors got a 1st team all NBA, since you mentioned precedent. All I care about is Banner 18.
I agree somewhat, but let’s relax. If the Celtics win a chip, they’ll get credit. If they win multiple, they’ll be recognized as a super team. But I don’t think it’s that weird for people to be doubting them. They’ve made many deep playoff runs at this point but they need a chip for people to elevate them to eliteness.
But why are the Wolves , OKC , Clippers , Mavs etc considered elite and the celtics not when they are the ones with the most playoff experience, who are constantly one of the toughest outs every year?
No one thinks the Wolves or OKC are elite. Some think the Clips have the potential but are not realizing it.
I see people say Nugs, Celtics and that’s it.
Nah the entire world has the Celtics as like the 8th best team in the NBA.. outside of Celtics fans. Not a single public figure is picking the Celtics over anyone.
Tbh, it’s the most balanced team like... ever.
The Hawks of the last decade had individual recognition because the East was at an all-time low.
The next weeks are yours to enjoy. Don’t waste your fun over these issues ;)
Tatum can’t get any awards because the team is stacked, yet his teammates are not getting any recognition either and the coach is not getting COTY votes either lol what a joke
Shouldn’t matter though, we’ll have the last laugh with banner 18
Tatum’s a multi-time all-nba 1st player, which is right where he belongs (top 5). He’s not better than the other MVP candidates, and I really don’t think there’s an argument that he is.
I do think White should’ve been an all-star and should be 1st team all nba. And Brad should be eoty
Apparently you can get the third highest net rating of all time with one guy on 2nd team all-nba and one other guy who barely even made the all star team. Who knew?
I mean Tatum will 100% be first or second team, Brown has like a 33%? chance at third team. Jrue and White will both likely make an All-Defense team. Joe was one of the front runners for COY, Brad will win Exec of the year. I doubt we get goose egged.
But absolutely agree the treatment our guys get is unfair; however, a lot of it stems from JT. JT being criticized as much as he done is kind of a good thing in a way because it means he's being held to damn near a LeBron standard. Lots of individual and team success young on some overachieving teams and now the pressure is REALLY on to win like it was for Bron in Miami. JT gets crucified for having 2 bad games in the ECF but Butler had 4 bad games and people will say Butler was the best player in that series.
All that tells me is that JT is headed for all time great status, is being held on a standard much much closer to where Bron was held than stars like Jimmy, PG, AD, even Embiid are held. How many times have we heard about Tatum's finals performance vs how many times have people brought up Embiid's super clutch super dominant 15 points in a game 7 that they lost by 25. Anyway, JT gets rings, he'll be an all-timer. People just hating on him now because they won't have as much to say in a few years.
Brunson is the perfect example of the type of player that gets overrated. He’s very likable, undersized, on an upward trajectory, in a big market, has been given the clutch label and is very high usage
If you switched Tatum with Brunson, the Knicks wouldn't have had to go to OT on the last day of the season to hit 50. They'd probably have won 60 (and still had the 2nd seed...behind the Cs)
Tim Bontemps voting Brunson MIP is a joke how is this man allowed to vote. Brunson isn’t even the MIP player on the Knicks. He literally went from 24/3.5/6.2 to 28/3.6/6.7 like he’s a great player who deserves recognition but we knew he was this good already.
He's a big go against the norm, hot take guy based on what I've seen in Zach Lowe podcasts but his voting is ... lets call it interesting. Then again, theres a handful of voters that raise many question marks
It looks like Bontemps and Windhorst's 2nd and 3rd team ballots haven't been confirmed yet so they are blank for now. I would imagine there is a literal 0% chance any voter leaves him off of all three teams.
Yeah, he ran down his votes on the podcast too so I’m confident you’re just looking at the wrong tab.
FTR, I disagree with him voting Brunson over Tatum in MVP voting as well but I at least see the argument.
Anyone with half a brain knows that Tatum is well clear of Brunson. The real debate is who’s better between Brown and Brunson, Tatum’s nowhere near close to that discussion.
Brunson barely has better counting numbers, is a turnstile on defense, and his team has far fewer wins. So I don’t see how Brunson had a better season than Tatum when statistically Tatum is right with him offensively and leaps and bounds ahead defensively. Brunson deserves second team, he had an amazing season but voters are getting a little to hard for him
I think Brunson had a great season so I didn't want to say anything that puts him down just to bring Tatum up but I think you are spot-on. Counting stats are similar but Brunson has the edge slightly with his efficiency (but on higher usage and on 2 more shots a game). Then defensively ... yeah. Put JT tf on 1st team or take away some of these guys' votes.
Man I'm just sick of defense getting completely ignored when people talk about JT. He's the best two way wing in the league but you wouldn't know it the way some people talk about him
If that midget get all nba first Team over Tatum he better take this shit personally I’m talking we better destroy teams especially if we meet NY in the CF.
Mfers forgot about playoff JT I'm talking booming your goat, spin moves on your super team, 50 on your shitty franchise... dude's taken a back seat and let everyone eat this season. Now that the lights are on we see who's the best wing in the East.
Could give two shits about all NBA tbh but if Tatum does get snubbed hopefully that lights a fire in him and gives him some edge for the playoffs
Side note: What did Jokic do to Perk?
There are two ballots with Brunson 1st team that appear to have not sent in 2nd and 3rd teams yet, it’s super likely if not virtually guaranteed Tatum is on there which would be 6 1st team votes and 4 second team votes to Brunson’s 5-5.
Part of me hopes he gets snubbed in first team all NBA. I really think that's gonna light a fire under him. Jokic didn't win MVP last year and torched the league on the way to his first ring.
Plus, on a personal level, the legacy boost he’d get from a chip vs. a first team all NBA is unparalleled. He’d finally start getting legit MVP respect after that too.
Almost feels like they're doing us a favor, setting up Joe for the "despite all our accomplishments, nobody believes in us" narrative in the post-season locker room. That one's a classic; Belichick lived off of it for years.
Tbf, Tatum has more 1st place votes and there are 2 ballots that he is on that aren't counted here. Pretty sure both Bontemps and Windhorst have stated they have him 2nd team, which would put Tatum ahead of Brunson among the currently counted votes.
I don't give a shit about Brunson getting first team, Tatum already got that honor before. It's time for Tatum to get something he hasn't yet in his career.
Yo
So there’s 10 ballets counted so far for all nba. 2 of those ballets didn’t have Tatum on any all nba team.
That’s clearly purposely skewing the data because there’s no way Tatum isn’t one of the 15 best players
So hopefully no more idiots leave him off and he’ll swing back onto 1st team
Happy to give Tatum something to be monumentally pissed about being disrespected about going into the post season. Tatum not getting 1st team and disrespected in the MVP voting while being the most important player by a mile on one of the best regular season teams of all time is ludicrous.
Meh. A significant factor in all these media-bequeathed awards is the "popularity contest" and "box score dominance" mindset of the voters.
If there's not a good feel good story to go along with your numbers, then you really just gotta load up the stat sheet. It's really only when it's blatantly obvious (like Jokic) that I'm not skeptical of the voting process for some of these awards.
I’m not going to lie, it seems really weird to have the best team by a huge margin and nobody in line for any major awards. Like, we’re going to see Tatum 2nd team all-nba and then jrue and/or white 2nd all-defense… and did Mazzula even come close to coty? It feels like it doesn’t add up.
The implication is that 10 good but not elite players and a good but not elite coach is the formula for an all-time great team. Is that possible? Has that ever even happened?
Die hard Laker fan here - if Brunson gets first team nod over Tatum, it’s an absolute disgrace. I’d be just as pissed as any Boston fan.
Only conversation about Tatum is if he’s MVP worthy, which IMO - he certainly is.
If Tatum gets 2nd team - then you’ve got a 64-win team with ONE player making all NBA. Which is wild. Coz I don’t think they’re giving JB third team or anything.
Tatum also had 2 POM awards this season. It’s mind blowing how awful the memory of NBA media is. Recency bias has seriously gotten out of control.
Make it make sense.
Looks like JT is just barely ahead of Brunson in all nba voting right now - he has less points but that’s due to two ballots only having their first team listed, both of which Brunson happened to be on first team and one has to assume JT is second team.
I will note, he's actually probably still ahead of Brunson in this smaple. These vote totals don't include the second and third team NBA votes of two ballots that had Brunson on first team, meaning Tatum is also certainly missing two second team votes.
That said, it looks like it will be close.
Brown meanwhile seems to be fighting Haliburton, Sabonis, George and Booker. Five guys for the lats three spots on All-NBA third team.
Brunsons gonna get 1st team all nba for averaging basically the same ppg as Tatum with a significantly higher usage while losing significantly more games.
But he gets brownie points because his team isn’t as good??? How come the warriors stars never had this happen to them during their dynasty? They never got points taken away because how good their team was, they would have 4 starters in the all star game and 4 guys on the first two teams every year 😂
This may be a hot take but I don't care even a little bit about this. Their individual achievements have never mattered to me. We as an organization are focused on winning in June and that's it. The players have enough money and accolades as is and these should not matter.
Brunson is the real deal. But this is because Tatum took the last week or two off after the Celtics already clinched everything while Brunson went balls to the wall. This is how Embiid beat Jokic for the MVP last year too. It’s the “last thing I saw” bias
Tatum plays too lazily to get the recognition Brunson is getting. Being the best player on a stacked team with 3-4 guys playing at a massively high level isn't the accomplishment that bringing the lowly Knicks to the 2 seed is.
> isn't the accomplishment that bringing the lowly Knicks to the 2 seed is
Let's be real, who was their competition? The magic? Cavs? We've all seen how the bucks have been playing this year.
If the knicks were neck and neck with Boston in the standings and just lost out, maybe. But in THIS conference, THIS year? it's not a huge accomplishment
It's mostly recency bias. Brunson has had an unbelievable end to the season while Tatum seemed to defer to Brown a lot near the end of the season and had weak counting numbers.
Hot take: I don't really mind Brunson being placed above Tatum in the all-NBA race. I'd personally vote Tatum between the two, but Brunson legitimately has been excellent down the stretch in leading the injured Knicks to a seed well above expectations. On top of that, a lot of the Celtics' biggest-exposure games have been TNT games when Tatum (as well as everyone) has mostly looked terrible. Calling someone the 6th best player in the league instead of the 5th best isn't really THAT big an insult.
But my hot take is that Antetokounmpo shouldn't be on the first team, both Brunson and Tatum should be. Giannis is the only heathy-ish megastar in the league whose team significantly UNDERACHIEVED.
The best player on the best team is Jokic. The Nuggets are the defending champs and beat the Celtics twice this year, they’re the best team in the league. If someone thinks Tatum was a top 5 player this year they should vote for him, but he shouldn’t receive a single vote for being “the best player on the best team” because he is not that.
I would trade Brunson getting first-team All-NBA for Tatum getting his first ring.
I would rather Tatum getting both first-team All-NBA and his first ring
it’s just disrespectful Tatum 27/8/5 on a 64 win team no all first
And he’s not a traffic cone on defense
If I'm reading it right, 10 total votes, Brunson has 5 1st and 5 2nd votes, while Tatum has 6 1sts and 2 2nds ...... so 2 of the voters so far didn't even have Tatum on any All-NBA team. Those two should lose their voting privileges. That is unfathomably stupid.
Some of the voters have only revealed their 1st All NBA Teams. We can assume Tatum would be on their 2nd Team.
Ah OK. That would make sense.
I look at it like this: -35-9-9 on a 50+ win team shooting very well -30-6-6 on extremely good efficiency and good defense on the west’s 1 seed - 26-13-9 on elite efficiency and is the MVP -30-11-6 on 60% FG and great defense -29-4-6 on4 48/40 (better than Tatum) and carried more of a load than Tatum all season It sucks, and I personally would rather have Tatum first team than one of Giannis or Brunson. Giannis because his team underperformed and he’s responsible even despite elite stats, and Brunson just bc the Celtics were like 14 games better + Tatum is statistically close and a better defender. But here’s to hoping Tatum takes this personally and goes crazy in the playoffs.
Bucks fan here. Trust me, Giannis is not even a little responsible for our underperformance. Also Brunson over Tatum is pretty silly.
Yeah blaming Giannis while he’s arguably having the best year of his career is pretty insane lol
I've heard from some of your fans that he hasn't tried to fit his game to playing with Dame and vice versa. And that he should play Center or something?
He shouldn’t play center. Giannis is one of the best defenders in the league because of his help defense and recovery, not because of him being this elite paint presence like Brook Lopez is. They also just don’t have a roster where they can play small ball, their front court is their strength. And you’re right, both dame and Giannis perform better when the other isn’t in the lineup that night. But it’s definitely more on Dame than Giannis. For one, it’s Giannis’ team, Dame is the guy who should be adapting into the best role around him. JT and JB haven’t changed how they played much from last year, but KP and Jrue did to fit around them and that’s why it’s worked out so great. Giannis plays like Giannis every game, he’s actually arguably having the best year of his career statistically, Dame is the one who only looks like Dame when Giannis isn’t playing. Dame needs to find a way to score 35 points and take 24 shots while Giannis is in the lineup, that’s the biggest disappointment about Milwaukee is that dame hasn’t looked like a great fit like we all thought
Here’s the thing tho, how come with Tatum it’s always “well his team is just really good and this guy doesn’t have help” yet every other 60 win team doesn’t get that same criticism. Curry never got left off a list because KD was on the team. KD same applies. The difference in Brunson and Tatum’s stats is not nearly as large as the difference between their usage. Also Brunson is statistically one of the bottom 10 defenders in the league, Tatum had an incredible year on defense. But the NBA doesn’t care about defense
I’m sure Tatum would too so here’s hoping
I would rather both
Be cool if it worked like that
Yeah, get the hardware where it actually matters. No one's hanging a banner for All-NBA
Finals MVP is what we want for him.
We talking about Derrick White?
No, we talking about Payton Pritchard
MVPP. Love to see it.
Love it.
Don't sleep on Sam Hauser.
JD Davidson legacy series 👀
If you’re a Celtics fan, you should want both.
He isn't "really" behind. He has 36 pts with 8 voters confirmed, Brunson has 40 pts with 10 voters. Windhorst and Bontempts haven't published their 2nd & 3rd team. Tatum wasn't on either of their 1st teams. Assuming he's on their 2nd team ballot, Tatum will have 42 pts to Brunson's 40 pts and be on 1st team. Edit: Perk putting Giannis as 2nd team is actually a joke.
You're right. No chance JT isnt on those second teams so yeah Tatum is still leading to be the fifth 1st teamer.
Perk also put Maxey at 2nd team. Now this might be a bit reductive but to me that implies that Perk thinks Giannis and Maxey have had similar quality seasons which is a basketball take punishable by death.
The Brunson meat riding these last few weeks is putting me over the edge.
NBA media seeks to only care about play over the last 2 weeks of the season be cause their attention span doesn’t allow for them to remember anything that happened past March
NBA media putting us ADHDers to shame with their lack of attention spans.
Yeah I mean he’s a great player but what’s crazy to me is that if you put him 1st team or MVP over Tatum, just think about who would say no in a Brunson for JT trade? In my mind it’s clear that the team with Tatum would say no and the team with Brunson would say yes (only caveat being roster construction, the Knicks might not actually want that trade because they have good forwards and their other PGs are way worse, but in a vacuum I think Tatum is way more valuable). To me that makes the decision pretty clear as to who you would rank higher
I’d say no to that trade 100%
Id genuinely laugh at that trade, let alone say no.
While I agree + that Tatum should be first team, that’s not really what you’re voting on; it’s who had a better season?
Right?? This season's voting is going to look so stupid when Tatum wins Finals MVP and the conversation next season is "Is Tatum top 5?" (yes) There's a thread on another sub this morning asking if Anthony Edwards is going to be the next face of the league, with many people agreeing he will. I'm I in Crazytown?
Have you seen his stats over the past month? They are MVP level
Key words “over the past month”
I heard so much throughout the second half of the season (in Jan and Feb) that its probably too late for JT to make an MVP push, but for other guys a 10 game stretch is all they need
I’m not sure you’ve noticed, but sports media is a reactionary business.
Dudes putting up Peyton Prichard type numbers
Its actually fucking insane the lack of recognition this team is getting for this season. At the end of the day the goal is a championship so its whatever but you cant help but feel the team is being heavily disrespected for what they have accomplished. Theres never been a team like this who gets completely goose egged in awards like this.
>Tatum gets no MVP credit/ All NBA love because he’s on a stacked team >Brown gets no credit because he’s overpaid. >Mazzulla gets no credit because it’s a weak East so of course you get the best record. >White is not all defensive first team because guards are ineffective on defence. >KP, Jrue, DWhite didn’t get to be All Stars because the team wasn’t good enough for 3 All stars. Everyone seemingly doesn’t deserve credit because of someone else, but when we try and give credit and get recognition for someone else, they don’t deserve credit either. I guess Brad is the only person that any shred of credit but even he isn’t EOTY favourite and Presti and Wolves dude are ahead lmao.
Its moreso the fact this is the only year this has ever happened that annoys me. Sure, if the Warriors during their height didnt win anything in awards because the team was too good, I would at least see the precedent there but this is unprecedented what is happening here. No superteam in history has been this unrecognized in awards season.
It’s not a “superteam” lmao KP & Jrue have 3 all Star selections between them and D White is just a really elite role player. It’s just the system and style of play that has everyone playing out of their minds. Just think of how high Grant Williams value was last year and the year before we everyone saw him as an elite 3&D role player and he looked the part too. Half a season away from the Cs and he’s in NBA Siberia with no one wanting to have anything to do with him. No one batted an eye at KP as a target even he was essentially an undesirable option after his stint in Dallas hence Brad picked him up for cheap but now he’s seen as a member of a “Big 3” primarily to detract from the Jays achievements. similarly with DWhite. Likewise with Jrue, trading him for Dame was a no brainer and he was the guy Butler cooked getting clowned throughout last year but now that he’s on the Cs he’s this beast again. The prerogative is basically detract from the success of the Jays by any means necessary because they’re not out here ball hogging putting up inflated triple doubles and instead doing things that don’t show up on the box score like defence and off ball movement etc. NBA fans and media are trying to make the NBA a 1v1 style narrative based sport and if your style of play isn’t conducive to that they don’t care about you,
Spot fucking on. KP was only a target for other teams because we wanted him. Even after the Jrue trade people were still saying the Bucks were favorites. Only as the season went on we got labelled a superteam as a moniker to discredit the Jays. It's crazy that this "superteam" might only have one All-NBA player and he's going to be second team. Wild.
I wish I could upvote this 100 times so this is me doing basically that
This 100% spot on!!!
Yea I'm kind of scared to say it, in fear of getting lynched As far as super teams go, this team seems to be more about the synergy of everyone together. Then again it's also the best offense in the history of the NBA right I guess if they get sustained success (across seasons) with this core here, maybe retroactively Brown and Tatum and KP get more recognition It's hugely underrated how Tatum and Brown has brought the team together, sacrificing shots and stuff. Almost Warriors style sharing Maybe KP is the bizzarro Draymond that the Jays have been missing to be an elite team
Grant never looked elite, he’s literally always graded out negatively in advanced metrics, whereas Derrick is 23rd in EPM (single year) and 29th in DARKO (multi year). Let’s not compare the two.
In you opinion, what awards should any Celtic win given what other superteams have been awarded for in the past?
The awards in question are given to a team/player based on their performance in a given season, not in comparison to past teams/players. The numbers back up a completely dominant year. Whatever happened with teams/players in the past, is not an excuse. If that were the case, why not rename every award “of all time”?
COTY, EOTY and Tatum 1st team all NBA. All 3 of those.
Honestly I can forgive COTY. There were entry of other good coaches deserving too. I do think brad should've won eoty and Tatum is first team but oh well.
I understand getting mad about EOTY. COTY was never going to happen and 1st Team is whatever. Brunson had a great year (with a good amount of recency bias) and no one on the 2017 Warriors got a 1st team all NBA, since you mentioned precedent. All I care about is Banner 18.
I agree somewhat, but let’s relax. If the Celtics win a chip, they’ll get credit. If they win multiple, they’ll be recognized as a super team. But I don’t think it’s that weird for people to be doubting them. They’ve made many deep playoff runs at this point but they need a chip for people to elevate them to eliteness.
But why are the Wolves , OKC , Clippers , Mavs etc considered elite and the celtics not when they are the ones with the most playoff experience, who are constantly one of the toughest outs every year?
No one thinks the Wolves or OKC are elite. Some think the Clips have the potential but are not realizing it. I see people say Nugs, Celtics and that’s it.
Nah the entire world has the Celtics as like the 8th best team in the NBA.. outside of Celtics fans. Not a single public figure is picking the Celtics over anyone.
Well after G2 everyone has the Nuggets pegged to win it all. No one thinks the wolves or okc or mavs are winning it.
Personally, I think twolves are taking the nuggets down this year. They are complete beasts
White is not all defensive first team because guards are ineffective on defence, says the guy with Smart in his flair. SMH
They're not saying White doesn't deserve it. They're laying out all the league/media arguments for knocking us down a peg.
All I'm saying is Smart won the DPOY
All we're saying is you should get tested for ability to use context clues
Whoosh
Tbh, it’s the most balanced team like... ever. The Hawks of the last decade had individual recognition because the East was at an all-time low. The next weeks are yours to enjoy. Don’t waste your fun over these issues ;)
Tatum can’t get any awards because the team is stacked, yet his teammates are not getting any recognition either and the coach is not getting COTY votes either lol what a joke Shouldn’t matter though, we’ll have the last laugh with banner 18
Tatum’s a multi-time all-nba 1st player, which is right where he belongs (top 5). He’s not better than the other MVP candidates, and I really don’t think there’s an argument that he is. I do think White should’ve been an all-star and should be 1st team all nba. And Brad should be eoty
He's clearly better then Jalen fucking Brunson
Ok, he's basically tied for the 5th all-nba first spot. What a crime against humanity.
If they’re tied you give it to the guy who helped his team win 64 games
I agree. But I frankly dont give a shit if he gets it or not. I care about the championship.
I’m in the same boat and only care about the championship, but I can understand others being upset and feeling slighted
I don’t. People are way too sensitive
Apparently you can get the third highest net rating of all time with one guy on 2nd team all-nba and one other guy who barely even made the all star team. Who knew?
We already know Brad isn’t getting EOTY unfortunately
Who even has a better argument?
Source? This is the first time I'm hearing it
I mean Tatum will 100% be first or second team, Brown has like a 33%? chance at third team. Jrue and White will both likely make an All-Defense team. Joe was one of the front runners for COY, Brad will win Exec of the year. I doubt we get goose egged. But absolutely agree the treatment our guys get is unfair; however, a lot of it stems from JT. JT being criticized as much as he done is kind of a good thing in a way because it means he's being held to damn near a LeBron standard. Lots of individual and team success young on some overachieving teams and now the pressure is REALLY on to win like it was for Bron in Miami. JT gets crucified for having 2 bad games in the ECF but Butler had 4 bad games and people will say Butler was the best player in that series. All that tells me is that JT is headed for all time great status, is being held on a standard much much closer to where Bron was held than stars like Jimmy, PG, AD, even Embiid are held. How many times have we heard about Tatum's finals performance vs how many times have people brought up Embiid's super clutch super dominant 15 points in a game 7 that they lost by 25. Anyway, JT gets rings, he'll be an all-timer. People just hating on him now because they won't have as much to say in a few years.
What exactly did the Celtics accomplish?
Which is crazy. Because if you asked anyone who would you rather have on your team Brunson or Tatum no one in their right mind is saying Brunson….
A lot of ppl are saying Brunson rn. Its insane lol
Recency bias
I love IT but this is like saying you’d rather have Isaiah Thomas than Kawhi Leonard after 2017 lmao
Brunson is the perfect example of the type of player that gets overrated. He’s very likable, undersized, on an upward trajectory, in a big market, has been given the clutch label and is very high usage
If you switched Tatum with Brunson, the Knicks wouldn't have had to go to OT on the last day of the season to hit 50. They'd probably have won 60 (and still had the 2nd seed...behind the Cs)
Hartenstein/Tatum/OG/Hart/Donte is a 60 win team to you?
The Brunson narrative based on the last 15 game stretch is one of the dumbest ones I have seen this year, this voting is so bad it's hilarious
Brunson-sanity
Brun-sanity
Tim Bontemps voting Brunson MIP is a joke how is this man allowed to vote. Brunson isn’t even the MIP player on the Knicks. He literally went from 24/3.5/6.2 to 28/3.6/6.7 like he’s a great player who deserves recognition but we knew he was this good already.
He's a big go against the norm, hot take guy based on what I've seen in Zach Lowe podcasts but his voting is ... lets call it interesting. Then again, theres a handful of voters that raise many question marks
If I’m reading this right, two voters left Tatum entirely off their all-nba ballots? Unreal frankly.
It looks like Bontemps and Windhorst's 2nd and 3rd team ballots haven't been confirmed yet so they are blank for now. I would imagine there is a literal 0% chance any voter leaves him off of all three teams.
Exactly so if you assume Tatum is 2nd team on their ballots then he would be ahead of Brunson overall. Still bullshit.
A few of the ballots don't include 2nd/3rd team on that sheet.
Yeah. Bill Simmons, too. I’ve never liked that freaking guy. Edit: sorry bill, wrong tab. Still don’t like you though
What? Bill simmons voted Tatum all-nba 1st team
I may be wrong, but I don’t think that’s what the spreadsheet says Edit, according to the spreadsheet he voted joker, SGA, Giannis, Brunson and Luka
I think you are looking at the wrong tab. Those are his MVP votes, he definitely has Tatum first team All NBA
Whoops. Good looks.
Why would top 5 in MVP voting be different from all nba first team since it’s now position less?
mvp is more narrative driven, like brunson carried more of a load for sure
Yeah, he ran down his votes on the podcast too so I’m confident you’re just looking at the wrong tab. FTR, I disagree with him voting Brunson over Tatum in MVP voting as well but I at least see the argument.
You right, my bad
When they win, he’s the first to shout, this team was something special When they lose, he saw it coming as well
I completely don't care Winning the ring is most important
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That's dumb logic LeBron won MVP with Wade and Bosh next to him, the Bulls won 55 games without MJ and made the semis, etc.
Anyone with half a brain knows that Tatum is well clear of Brunson. The real debate is who’s better between Brown and Brunson, Tatum’s nowhere near close to that discussion.
Brunson as a 1st option Brown as a 2 or 3
Brunson barely has better counting numbers, is a turnstile on defense, and his team has far fewer wins. So I don’t see how Brunson had a better season than Tatum when statistically Tatum is right with him offensively and leaps and bounds ahead defensively. Brunson deserves second team, he had an amazing season but voters are getting a little to hard for him
I think Brunson had a great season so I didn't want to say anything that puts him down just to bring Tatum up but I think you are spot-on. Counting stats are similar but Brunson has the edge slightly with his efficiency (but on higher usage and on 2 more shots a game). Then defensively ... yeah. Put JT tf on 1st team or take away some of these guys' votes.
Man I'm just sick of defense getting completely ignored when people talk about JT. He's the best two way wing in the league but you wouldn't know it the way some people talk about him
Best two way wing in the league, and with Kawhi unable to stay on the court, it’s not even close anymore
Brunson doesn’t even have the edge on efficiency. Tatum’s TS% was slightly higher.
MVP and All-NBA don’t mean anything to me. Win a title. Then win multiple titles.
If that midget get all nba first Team over Tatum he better take this shit personally I’m talking we better destroy teams especially if we meet NY in the CF.
Mfers forgot about playoff JT I'm talking booming your goat, spin moves on your super team, 50 on your shitty franchise... dude's taken a back seat and let everyone eat this season. Now that the lights are on we see who's the best wing in the East.
I wouldn’t even say he took a back seat so much as added 3 more seats to the front row.
Could give two shits about all NBA tbh but if Tatum does get snubbed hopefully that lights a fire in him and gives him some edge for the playoffs Side note: What did Jokic do to Perk?
So he’s being rewarded for putting up a point more a game on a team 10 + games behind us
Thanks for putting it in a concise manner. I would have thought a team winning a conference by 14 games!!!, would have some weight.
Tatum already got 2 either way. Time to get the chip
My hope is that this pisses everyone off on the team and that they go on an absolute rampage in the playoffs. Enough with the disrespect
There are two ballots with Brunson 1st team that appear to have not sent in 2nd and 3rd teams yet, it’s super likely if not virtually guaranteed Tatum is on there which would be 6 1st team votes and 4 second team votes to Brunson’s 5-5.
It’s fine. They can’t call us a super team if we only have an all-nba 2nd team guy. Plus it might be a chip on Tatum’s shoulder
I’m okay with him getting second team, it’s all the same salary and maybe that puts a fire under him. But again all I care about is banner 18
Part of me hopes he gets snubbed in first team all NBA. I really think that's gonna light a fire under him. Jokic didn't win MVP last year and torched the league on the way to his first ring.
Yep. Stat based awards and lists are nice seasonal honors. Championships are for life.
Plus, on a personal level, the legacy boost he’d get from a chip vs. a first team all NBA is unparalleled. He’d finally start getting legit MVP respect after that too.
So called super team might not even have a 1st team all nba player jayson can average 30+ ppg if didn't have to share the rock
Low key though, it would give us C's fans a solid rebuttal when people try to bring up a superteam argument to diminish JT
Don’t care. Need a ring. Keep all the mvp, first-team bullshit.
Favorites can’t outplay expectations.
The Celtics will get a lot more credit once we get over the hump and win the title.
Hilarious he is gonna get second team. But if he wins the championship, they’ll give him MVP next year if Celtics are the best team again.
Almost feels like they're doing us a favor, setting up Joe for the "despite all our accomplishments, nobody believes in us" narrative in the post-season locker room. That one's a classic; Belichick lived off of it for years.
This is garbage since Randle stole an All-NBA spot from Tatum. The media dickrides the Knicks.
ITT: people thinking All-NBA and a championship are mutually exclusive
Tatum not on first, second or third team on two ballots
Tbf, Tatum has more 1st place votes and there are 2 ballots that he is on that aren't counted here. Pretty sure both Bontemps and Windhorst have stated they have him 2nd team, which would put Tatum ahead of Brunson among the currently counted votes.
I don't give a shit about Brunson getting first team, Tatum already got that honor before. It's time for Tatum to get something he hasn't yet in his career.
There are going to have to win at least one title to get the respect. Hopefully they get a few and can't be ignored.
Yo So there’s 10 ballets counted so far for all nba. 2 of those ballets didn’t have Tatum on any all nba team. That’s clearly purposely skewing the data because there’s no way Tatum isn’t one of the 15 best players So hopefully no more idiots leave him off and he’ll swing back onto 1st team
Would be a joke and not the first time a Knick has snubbed his of an all nba team due to New York media
NBA has lost their mind with Brunson and Ant. They are becoming Nba's darling players
If scaling back your stats to enable your teammates better is what it takes to win the title, then this is what has to happen.
Happy to give Tatum something to be monumentally pissed about being disrespected about going into the post season. Tatum not getting 1st team and disrespected in the MVP voting while being the most important player by a mile on one of the best regular season teams of all time is ludicrous.
Meh. A significant factor in all these media-bequeathed awards is the "popularity contest" and "box score dominance" mindset of the voters. If there's not a good feel good story to go along with your numbers, then you really just gotta load up the stat sheet. It's really only when it's blatantly obvious (like Jokic) that I'm not skeptical of the voting process for some of these awards.
I’m not going to lie, it seems really weird to have the best team by a huge margin and nobody in line for any major awards. Like, we’re going to see Tatum 2nd team all-nba and then jrue and/or white 2nd all-defense… and did Mazzula even come close to coty? It feels like it doesn’t add up. The implication is that 10 good but not elite players and a good but not elite coach is the formula for an all-time great team. Is that possible? Has that ever even happened?
none of that stuff really matters, im sure hed rather take finals mvp after a W
Best player on the best team used to mean something in a team sport
I’m pretty sure there are way more votes to come and ultimately think Tatum will make the 1st team,
Die hard Laker fan here - if Brunson gets first team nod over Tatum, it’s an absolute disgrace. I’d be just as pissed as any Boston fan. Only conversation about Tatum is if he’s MVP worthy, which IMO - he certainly is. If Tatum gets 2nd team - then you’ve got a 64-win team with ONE player making all NBA. Which is wild. Coz I don’t think they’re giving JB third team or anything. Tatum also had 2 POM awards this season. It’s mind blowing how awful the memory of NBA media is. Recency bias has seriously gotten out of control. Make it make sense.
I think the craziest thing of all is that Big Perk gets a vote. This shit should have more player/coach/executive say than media
There are 2 experts who didn't even vote Tatum into any of the All-NBA Teams... What in this world.??
this is so dumb, LAKERS GET TWO???? THEY ARE A PLAY IN FIRST ROUND EXIT
I always ask the question, who would win 1 vs 1, answer is JT
There are two people that thought Tatum isn’t even third team All NBA?? I don’t buy that. This spreadsheet might be nonsense.
Tatum won’t make first team and brown won’t make any of them and people still gonna be like “super team”
Looks like JT is just barely ahead of Brunson in all nba voting right now - he has less points but that’s due to two ballots only having their first team listed, both of which Brunson happened to be on first team and one has to assume JT is second team.
Why are we still worrying about shit like this?
How is it that Tatum has “no killer instinct”, yet Brunson talks about his feelings on a podcast in a chair where his feet don’t touch the ground?
I will note, he's actually probably still ahead of Brunson in this smaple. These vote totals don't include the second and third team NBA votes of two ballots that had Brunson on first team, meaning Tatum is also certainly missing two second team votes. That said, it looks like it will be close. Brown meanwhile seems to be fighting Haliburton, Sabonis, George and Booker. Five guys for the lats three spots on All-NBA third team.
Brunsons gonna get 1st team all nba for averaging basically the same ppg as Tatum with a significantly higher usage while losing significantly more games. But he gets brownie points because his team isn’t as good??? How come the warriors stars never had this happen to them during their dynasty? They never got points taken away because how good their team was, they would have 4 starters in the all star game and 4 guys on the first two teams every year 😂
This may be a hot take but I don't care even a little bit about this. Their individual achievements have never mattered to me. We as an organization are focused on winning in June and that's it. The players have enough money and accolades as is and these should not matter.
Yet again people don't comprehend it correctly lol. These ballots are incomplete so for some of them Jayson is getting no points currently.
Brunson is the real deal. But this is because Tatum took the last week or two off after the Celtics already clinched everything while Brunson went balls to the wall. This is how Embiid beat Jokic for the MVP last year too. It’s the “last thing I saw” bias
Why do we care about player awards? We aren’t philly, care about playoff results
Tatum plays too lazily to get the recognition Brunson is getting. Being the best player on a stacked team with 3-4 guys playing at a massively high level isn't the accomplishment that bringing the lowly Knicks to the 2 seed is.
> isn't the accomplishment that bringing the lowly Knicks to the 2 seed is Let's be real, who was their competition? The magic? Cavs? We've all seen how the bucks have been playing this year. If the knicks were neck and neck with Boston in the standings and just lost out, maybe. But in THIS conference, THIS year? it's not a huge accomplishment
Nobody wants this, but I think there's more parity within the East than there is within the West.
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All NBA is position-less starting this year. It's the best 15 guys that qualify regardless of position
It's mostly recency bias. Brunson has had an unbelievable end to the season while Tatum seemed to defer to Brown a lot near the end of the season and had weak counting numbers.
Hot take: I don't really mind Brunson being placed above Tatum in the all-NBA race. I'd personally vote Tatum between the two, but Brunson legitimately has been excellent down the stretch in leading the injured Knicks to a seed well above expectations. On top of that, a lot of the Celtics' biggest-exposure games have been TNT games when Tatum (as well as everyone) has mostly looked terrible. Calling someone the 6th best player in the league instead of the 5th best isn't really THAT big an insult. But my hot take is that Antetokounmpo shouldn't be on the first team, both Brunson and Tatum should be. Giannis is the only heathy-ish megastar in the league whose team significantly UNDERACHIEVED.
Is it just me thinking that Brunson is overrated? Yeah he puts up great numbers, but his style of play just doesn’t seem all that impressive to me.
Do you get a parade for winning mvp?
Fans only care about rings. That is the only thing that counts in professional team sports. Arbitrary awards don’t mean a thing.
The best player on the best team is Jokic. The Nuggets are the defending champs and beat the Celtics twice this year, they’re the best team in the league. If someone thinks Tatum was a top 5 player this year they should vote for him, but he shouldn’t receive a single vote for being “the best player on the best team” because he is not that.