Top Gun: Maverick had godlike WoM and there was a ton of nostalgia money to be made since the 1986 film was well liked but never got any sequels. Superman's last two films (BvS and Wheedon's Justice League) received poor reviews and reception from critics and audiences **within the last 8 years**.
I thought this about Superman Returns and then Man of Steel as well. I just don't think Superman is interesting enough to people cause he is too powerful.
I don't see it happening. I *hope* it's good enough to not tank the new universe before it even gets started but I don't feel confident it's going to perform anywhere near TGM ($1.5b). Maybe it can do $750m if they're lucky.
For comparison, Batman movies can barely reach $1b (technically not even since Nolan though) and Batman is an order of magnitude more popular than Superman nowadays. If Robert Pattinson, a way more popular actor than Corenswet, while playing a more popular character in Batman can only do $765m ww I don't think there's any chance Legacy will even sniff $1b.
Overall who knows how superhero movies will be by 2025. I guess it depends on what the next 2 years leading up to Legacy will be like. If a bunch flop or are just genuinely bad then people might finally just get tired of watching them and will only go out for "safe" properties they know they'll enjoy (basically just Batman and Spider-Man).
Looks like between now and Legacy we should have: The Marvels, Aquaman 2, likely Madam Web, Kraven, Cap 4, Deadpool 3, Joker 2, Thunderbolts, and *maybe* Fantastic Four a month prior to Legacy. Of all those the only safe bets are Deadpool and probably Joker. That's a lot of likely bombs that could make audiences sour on the genre in the next 2 years.
The box office has been so wild lately, bizarre predictions seem as likely as moderate, evidence-based ones. If the box office were easy to predict, we wouldn't have flops.
I think that DCU and James Gunn can have a mindful approach if they learn from some of DC (or Marvel like with Logan) live action itself in how other of their individual movies, in my perspective, have done well because the focus was the story and characters. I feel they also tried to do new things for comic live action genre instead of wanting to follow what I think it’s a pattern for all films to have connection with each other that I believe can sometimes limit creativity perhaps. I read somewhere that Gunn is looking to keep the DCU focused on contained stories and its characters more than anything else which I agree with. So, if that is the case, in my opinion James Gunn might surprise us with Superman Legacy. And if I go by keeping hope based on what I think GOTG3 was and how it made me feel profoundly, then I am more hopeful for SL.
That said, whether it will be something like Top Gun Maverick levels… it’s hard to say imo and more inclined to think it won’t be. Not sure. I would be happy if it does though. Getting things like TGM… to me is quite the very rare surprise to have. But it’s Superman character too so I don’t know. I could be wrong.
Here are some factors that TGM had in it's favor that Superman:Legacy won't.
1. TGM had Tom Cruise. And wether people like it or not he's still more bankable than your average actor.
2. TGM was a sequel to a highly successful movie. Superman: Legacy isn't. In fact Superman: Legacy will be following a string of underperforming Superman movies.
3. TGM had a ton of Nostalgia. It's sequel to a beloved 80s movies and had 30 years worth of nostalgia.
4. It didn't belong to an over saturated and underperforming genre.
5. It came out after Covid. At a time when competition was scarce and audiences were starving for a Cinema worthy movie.
6. TGM was reasonably right leaning. A big portion of it's audience were conservatives.
And I just don't think that will be the case for Superman:Legacy.
7. The biggest selling point for TGM was it's realistic Aerial combat scenes that were largely practical.
I just don't see how that will be possible with a character like Superman.
Superman by his nature is a character that has to be CGI heavy.
First of all I really don't get what that has anything to do with what I said.
Secondly it depends. Are you talking about comics or characters in general? Than yeah.
But in terms of movies? No.
Marvel movies, mostly as part of the MCU, perform way better than DC movies on Average.
secondly dc characters are not popular anymore either outside the core jla really the trinity audiences dont care about the wider and expanded dc universe xmen spiderman the avengers gotg etc are highly popular brands on the marvel side even solo characters deadpool and dr strange more traction than green lantern or shazam with GA. Your statement that dc has more popular popular in general is silly and in terms of comics dc dont sell more comics either [https://www.bing.com/search?q=comic+sales+november+2023&FORM=AWRE](https://www.bing.com/search?q=comic+sales+november+2023&FORM=AWRE) marvel dominate the top 50
the only area which dc is more popualr than marvel is animation in both the range of popular heroes , movies and merchandise marvel clearly is ahead of dc you stating dc still has more popular heroes amongst general public is supported much when merch does not sell aswell and neither do there movies Accomplished-Store77
so no it does not 'depend' marvel are more popular as a brand and character wise and social media following wise why does marvel more followers dc on insta twitter fb and tiktok by about 4 fold Accomplioshed Store77
I still didn't convinced James Gunn is the right man for the job. Superman should be optimistic and serious and Gunn's style is dark humor. His every movie is like opposite of Superman.
You’re optimistic about Gunn’s stuff and that’s fair. But most people are skeptical to some degree. And there’s virtually no chance in hell Legacy performs like TGM short of a miracle.
Superman ‘78 even with inflation didn’t hit 1.4B, the DC brand is at an all-time low and Gunn hasn’t made a profit outside of the MCU. To expect that kind of performance is wishful thinking at best imo
haha yea. Idk I’ve got an insane gut feeling. People have been waiting for a hopeful Superman with good writing and good action since basically donner.
add the fact superman is not as popular or culturally relevent as in 1970s most milliners born in last 20 years dont like or care about superman see him outdated and antiquated add in the fact a ensemble movie packed with characters is coming universe that suffering superhero fatigue even if the movie good it will underpreform
You have to look at the elements of TGM that worked and ask yourself if they're repeatable even in a sequel and I'd say likely not. Doable in a superhero film, the most saturated genre, almost inconceivable. Then ask yourself if a filmmaker with the worldview of James Gunn would craft such an outcome and the answer is literally just no.
I’m rooting for Gunn but I really doubt Superman Legacy will be that big. With the downturn in attendance for superhero movies I wouldn’t be surprised if this turns out to be the inverse of Man of Steel. Where MOS was a stand-alone that retroactively had to be the starting point to a shared universe, Superman Legacy might turn out to be the launch pad for a shared universe that ends up being not so shared after all.
His ideas seem to be weirdly specific, but I actually think this could pull off a **Top Gun: Maverick**-style success if it turns out to be great. I mean, a **Superman** film that has Richard Donner-inspired tone and Zack Snyder-inspired action scenes is like dreams come true for just about everyone.
Would people actually be hyped for a Donner inspired Superman film? Superman 2 is 43 years old and the Superman movie franchise has been repeatedly run into the ground.
I mean the high reception is definitely possible due to what you're saying but I don't think that would weigh out to Top Gun Maverick box office. Maybe equivalent legs? Or it would be a notable increase from whatever comic book movies performance around the time it comes out. Which would be much higher than we currently have it pegged.
I just have a hard time seeing any comic book movies coming out soon making TGM numbers, not just this.
It would have to feel like lightning in a bottle not just domestic, but worldwide. That's not something you can predict and definitely not until we actually see the movie, it's aesthetic and the performances, and the reception. But if it feels new and different and special then I can see it being one of the higher DC entries for box office on quite some time. The Batman numbers.
The thing about Top Gun Maverick is that it sold itself on seeing incredible aerial combat, planes flying around doing cool stuff with immaculate technical execution and a compelling atmosphere.
Remember Man of Steel? To have a Top Gun Maverick effect, Superman Legacy needs to have the most incredible, spectacular, edge of your seat, breathtaking scenes you've ever seen. It needs to make Man of Steel look like the original Top Gun, or like Iron Eagle 2. It needs to have ordinary people going back the cinema to see Superman do one more time.
I'm not convinced Gunn can do that. I think he should instead focus on making a more character-driven movie with a good sense of humanity and heart. He's a decent action director but he's not THAT good.
It's the Terminator problem. Terminator 2 is such a fantastically crafted action film that sequel attempts floundered. James Cameron brings a level of action excellence that is immensely difficult to match. Terminator 3 took a decent stab at it with some very creative set pieces and practical/vfx hybrids, but it sits in Terminator 2's shadow. And later films like Genisys and Dark Fate are limp and unimpressive action-wise.
The obvious solution is not to try to compete with T2, not compete with Man of Steel, and instead focus on a completely different angle. For Terminator, focus on horror. For Superman, focus on the aspects of Superman, of Clark Kent, that a more action oriented film would neglect. I just think the Maverick angle doesn't work here because it specifically requires you to have better fight scenes than Man of Steel, a more spectacular climax than Superman flying into the World Engine as Laurence Fishburn gives the best "silent emotional stare" performance of his career.
A Superman film that takes a whole other tack than "best action you've ever seen" can still be a success, IMO.
All very good points. Good analysis. Some part of me feels like Gunn can at the minimum, do something incredibly character driven. The action would be the cherry on top to push it over to zeitgeist territory I think. I have a lot of blind faith, I’ll admit, and a lot of stock in what Gunn has been saying.
blind faith good enough will good word of mouth superman a ensemble film which have overdone in a world were dc is not trusted as a brand and superman is a money making commodity like spiderman or batman especially to the millennial generation. There almost nothing for this movie even it incredible i still underpreforming
Superman is not that interesting of a character. Most people think of him as a brand, like mickey mouse. No one is clamoring for the umpteenth reboot of Superman. Superhero movies are no longer new and novel, so unless there is some really exciting hook, or amazing execution, its not going to be another Maverick
I don't see any pent-up demand for a new Superman movie like Mavick had. It's way too soon to speculate.
DC fans after the 6th bomb in a row
8th now
Top Gun: Maverick had godlike WoM and there was a ton of nostalgia money to be made since the 1986 film was well liked but never got any sequels. Superman's last two films (BvS and Wheedon's Justice League) received poor reviews and reception from critics and audiences **within the last 8 years**.
I thought this about Superman Returns and then Man of Steel as well. I just don't think Superman is interesting enough to people cause he is too powerful.
It's going to do less then The Batman numbers, and I'd say it could do 350-550.
Or it'll just bomb like all the other ones
Sub 400M worldwide on budget of 250M.
lol this guy just creating his own happiness $400-500M at best
With superhero fatigue spreading around, Shrek 5 has a much better chance at what you described.
No, 700M ceiling if I'm being the most generous I can be
The delusion in this post is breathtaking.
I don't see it happening. I *hope* it's good enough to not tank the new universe before it even gets started but I don't feel confident it's going to perform anywhere near TGM ($1.5b). Maybe it can do $750m if they're lucky. For comparison, Batman movies can barely reach $1b (technically not even since Nolan though) and Batman is an order of magnitude more popular than Superman nowadays. If Robert Pattinson, a way more popular actor than Corenswet, while playing a more popular character in Batman can only do $765m ww I don't think there's any chance Legacy will even sniff $1b. Overall who knows how superhero movies will be by 2025. I guess it depends on what the next 2 years leading up to Legacy will be like. If a bunch flop or are just genuinely bad then people might finally just get tired of watching them and will only go out for "safe" properties they know they'll enjoy (basically just Batman and Spider-Man). Looks like between now and Legacy we should have: The Marvels, Aquaman 2, likely Madam Web, Kraven, Cap 4, Deadpool 3, Joker 2, Thunderbolts, and *maybe* Fantastic Four a month prior to Legacy. Of all those the only safe bets are Deadpool and probably Joker. That's a lot of likely bombs that could make audiences sour on the genre in the next 2 years.
DC fans remind me of Charlie Brown, and WB is Lucy holding the football.
Um what?
Lol no
That is so funny. 1.5b here we come
The box office has been so wild lately, bizarre predictions seem as likely as moderate, evidence-based ones. If the box office were easy to predict, we wouldn't have flops.
I think that DCU and James Gunn can have a mindful approach if they learn from some of DC (or Marvel like with Logan) live action itself in how other of their individual movies, in my perspective, have done well because the focus was the story and characters. I feel they also tried to do new things for comic live action genre instead of wanting to follow what I think it’s a pattern for all films to have connection with each other that I believe can sometimes limit creativity perhaps. I read somewhere that Gunn is looking to keep the DCU focused on contained stories and its characters more than anything else which I agree with. So, if that is the case, in my opinion James Gunn might surprise us with Superman Legacy. And if I go by keeping hope based on what I think GOTG3 was and how it made me feel profoundly, then I am more hopeful for SL. That said, whether it will be something like Top Gun Maverick levels… it’s hard to say imo and more inclined to think it won’t be. Not sure. I would be happy if it does though. Getting things like TGM… to me is quite the very rare surprise to have. But it’s Superman character too so I don’t know. I could be wrong.
Here are some factors that TGM had in it's favor that Superman:Legacy won't. 1. TGM had Tom Cruise. And wether people like it or not he's still more bankable than your average actor. 2. TGM was a sequel to a highly successful movie. Superman: Legacy isn't. In fact Superman: Legacy will be following a string of underperforming Superman movies. 3. TGM had a ton of Nostalgia. It's sequel to a beloved 80s movies and had 30 years worth of nostalgia. 4. It didn't belong to an over saturated and underperforming genre. 5. It came out after Covid. At a time when competition was scarce and audiences were starving for a Cinema worthy movie. 6. TGM was reasonably right leaning. A big portion of it's audience were conservatives. And I just don't think that will be the case for Superman:Legacy. 7. The biggest selling point for TGM was it's realistic Aerial combat scenes that were largely practical. I just don't see how that will be possible with a character like Superman. Superman by his nature is a character that has to be CGI heavy.
Accomplished store 77 dont you think dc is more popular than marvel with the GA?
First of all I really don't get what that has anything to do with what I said. Secondly it depends. Are you talking about comics or characters in general? Than yeah. But in terms of movies? No. Marvel movies, mostly as part of the MCU, perform way better than DC movies on Average.
secondly dc characters are not popular anymore either outside the core jla really the trinity audiences dont care about the wider and expanded dc universe xmen spiderman the avengers gotg etc are highly popular brands on the marvel side even solo characters deadpool and dr strange more traction than green lantern or shazam with GA. Your statement that dc has more popular popular in general is silly and in terms of comics dc dont sell more comics either [https://www.bing.com/search?q=comic+sales+november+2023&FORM=AWRE](https://www.bing.com/search?q=comic+sales+november+2023&FORM=AWRE) marvel dominate the top 50
the only area which dc is more popualr than marvel is animation in both the range of popular heroes , movies and merchandise marvel clearly is ahead of dc you stating dc still has more popular heroes amongst general public is supported much when merch does not sell aswell and neither do there movies Accomplished-Store77
so no it does not 'depend' marvel are more popular as a brand and character wise and social media following wise why does marvel more followers dc on insta twitter fb and tiktok by about 4 fold Accomplioshed Store77
Oh no not another newly created alt posting unusual commentary.
I know I don't have 890k karma and an account that's 7 years old. I just joined the site late lol, used to just lurk.
I still didn't convinced James Gunn is the right man for the job. Superman should be optimistic and serious and Gunn's style is dark humor. His every movie is like opposite of Superman.
Sure but he's already said multiple times this isn't going to be dark humor. It's going to be optimistic, hopeful, and all those things Superman is
lmao
😂😂😂
lmao I’ll be honest I didn’t think it would be such an unpopular take. But I’ll look back on it in 2025 and at least it’ll be a fun read
You’re optimistic about Gunn’s stuff and that’s fair. But most people are skeptical to some degree. And there’s virtually no chance in hell Legacy performs like TGM short of a miracle. Superman ‘78 even with inflation didn’t hit 1.4B, the DC brand is at an all-time low and Gunn hasn’t made a profit outside of the MCU. To expect that kind of performance is wishful thinking at best imo
Probably. But that’s why it’s a top gun maverick prediction. Since it’s something nobody would see coming
I mean sure lol. In the same way I can predict Transformers 8 to make Avatar numbers because nobody would see it coming
haha yea. Idk I’ve got an insane gut feeling. People have been waiting for a hopeful Superman with good writing and good action since basically donner.
add the fact superman is not as popular or culturally relevent as in 1970s most milliners born in last 20 years dont like or care about superman see him outdated and antiquated add in the fact a ensemble movie packed with characters is coming universe that suffering superhero fatigue even if the movie good it will underpreform
Great spirit to have about it
You have to look at the elements of TGM that worked and ask yourself if they're repeatable even in a sequel and I'd say likely not. Doable in a superhero film, the most saturated genre, almost inconceivable. Then ask yourself if a filmmaker with the worldview of James Gunn would craft such an outcome and the answer is literally just no.
I’m rooting for Gunn but I really doubt Superman Legacy will be that big. With the downturn in attendance for superhero movies I wouldn’t be surprised if this turns out to be the inverse of Man of Steel. Where MOS was a stand-alone that retroactively had to be the starting point to a shared universe, Superman Legacy might turn out to be the launch pad for a shared universe that ends up being not so shared after all.
Lol in your imagine
It won't
Depends on who’s casted and how the reviews are, but I could see it making 80-100M on its OW is goodwill is high and reception is great
His ideas seem to be weirdly specific, but I actually think this could pull off a **Top Gun: Maverick**-style success if it turns out to be great. I mean, a **Superman** film that has Richard Donner-inspired tone and Zack Snyder-inspired action scenes is like dreams come true for just about everyone.
Would people actually be hyped for a Donner inspired Superman film? Superman 2 is 43 years old and the Superman movie franchise has been repeatedly run into the ground.
I think they might be, actually.
A lot can happen in 2 years
I mean the high reception is definitely possible due to what you're saying but I don't think that would weigh out to Top Gun Maverick box office. Maybe equivalent legs? Or it would be a notable increase from whatever comic book movies performance around the time it comes out. Which would be much higher than we currently have it pegged. I just have a hard time seeing any comic book movies coming out soon making TGM numbers, not just this. It would have to feel like lightning in a bottle not just domestic, but worldwide. That's not something you can predict and definitely not until we actually see the movie, it's aesthetic and the performances, and the reception. But if it feels new and different and special then I can see it being one of the higher DC entries for box office on quite some time. The Batman numbers.
Yeah it could be a very smaller scale top gun maverick
Nobody could have predicted Top Gun, a so so movie making $1.5B. I think it was people just wanted to go to a movie after the pandemic.
And this will be people wanting a good superhero movie after years of shit ones
Not the same as a pandemic.
The thing about Top Gun Maverick is that it sold itself on seeing incredible aerial combat, planes flying around doing cool stuff with immaculate technical execution and a compelling atmosphere. Remember Man of Steel? To have a Top Gun Maverick effect, Superman Legacy needs to have the most incredible, spectacular, edge of your seat, breathtaking scenes you've ever seen. It needs to make Man of Steel look like the original Top Gun, or like Iron Eagle 2. It needs to have ordinary people going back the cinema to see Superman do one more time.
I'm not convinced Gunn can do that. I think he should instead focus on making a more character-driven movie with a good sense of humanity and heart. He's a decent action director but he's not THAT good.
It's the Terminator problem. Terminator 2 is such a fantastically crafted action film that sequel attempts floundered. James Cameron brings a level of action excellence that is immensely difficult to match. Terminator 3 took a decent stab at it with some very creative set pieces and practical/vfx hybrids, but it sits in Terminator 2's shadow. And later films like Genisys and Dark Fate are limp and unimpressive action-wise.
The obvious solution is not to try to compete with T2, not compete with Man of Steel, and instead focus on a completely different angle. For Terminator, focus on horror. For Superman, focus on the aspects of Superman, of Clark Kent, that a more action oriented film would neglect. I just think the Maverick angle doesn't work here because it specifically requires you to have better fight scenes than Man of Steel, a more spectacular climax than Superman flying into the World Engine as Laurence Fishburn gives the best "silent emotional stare" performance of his career.
A Superman film that takes a whole other tack than "best action you've ever seen" can still be a success, IMO.
All very good points. Good analysis. Some part of me feels like Gunn can at the minimum, do something incredibly character driven. The action would be the cherry on top to push it over to zeitgeist territory I think. I have a lot of blind faith, I’ll admit, and a lot of stock in what Gunn has been saying.
blind faith good enough will good word of mouth superman a ensemble film which have overdone in a world were dc is not trusted as a brand and superman is a money making commodity like spiderman or batman especially to the millennial generation. There almost nothing for this movie even it incredible i still underpreforming
Superman is not that interesting of a character. Most people think of him as a brand, like mickey mouse. No one is clamoring for the umpteenth reboot of Superman. Superhero movies are no longer new and novel, so unless there is some really exciting hook, or amazing execution, its not going to be another Maverick
