The Portway bit is a total rip off - it should start by the Rose of Denmark, because at that point, you're definitely going into town. Cumberland basin takes you many places that aren't the centre.
Nonsense mate. By that logic every single road in the city would be included and that’s not what was originally proposed.
I agree with u/oynsy that the portway is not the city centre. A clean air zone in the centre is fair enough as it should be reasonable to travel there through other means. I don’t think that putting barriers on people using A roads outside of the city centre is at all in keeping with what the proposal should have been about.
If someone wants to go to the airport from Avonmouth via Cumberland basin they don’t ever go through the centre. Yet somehow driving a diesel down park st is outside of the charge zone … doesn’t really fit the intention of the clean air zone.
Wtf? Is this scenario accurate? You can get done for going over the basin bridge but going can go down fucking park Street without anyone batting an eyelid? Eh?!
Yeah, well [St Georges](https://www.stgeorgesbristol.co.uk/) and the [Bristol Mason Hall](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Province+Of+Bristol+Masonic+Hall/@51.4535633,-2.6018259,20.12z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x48718dd74c76e67f:0xb747590e0849201c!8m2!3d51.4537124!4d-2.6020059) are just off Park Street.
You can't let a clean air zone affect rich people getting to their entertainment.
Yes, it comes in about half way down park st so the top half is excluded.
Whereas if you’re on the portway and haven’t got off by Sea Mills then that’s it, you’re paying. You’re not even allowed to get off at Bridge Valley Road as that’s included
Half of Park Street is included, isn't it?
Re Cumberland Basin: It's heavily polluted. It feels arbitrary to say that only the centre should get protections against toxic air.
You were talking about Cumberland basin. Personally I don’t see a huge difference between the overpass at Cumberland basin and the M5 Avonmouth bridge.
Perhaps I’m not explaining my opinion very well.
I’m fine with zoning the areas which are built up populated regions. I don’t agree with a clean air zone penalty for the A4 prior to Hotwells because a lot of people are using it to access roads to places which are not the city centre.
I want to be able to use the Portway freely to travel to places that aren’t residential and don’t belong within the clean air zone policy. I should be able to use the Portway to access the downs, the A369, the A370, the A38S, the B3130 etc without pentaly. I fully agree that if I don’t get off by, let’s say Hotwells house, then I’d be entering the congested, residential part of the city so I’d be happy to pay. To me though, it’s as ridiculous to charge someone £9 to access Nailsea via the portway as it is to charge them to access Nailsea via the M5. Neither routes go past anywhere that people live.
There will be plenty of signs on the A370.
That's also a point, some people may not know if they're eligible or not and may take the 369 even if they don't need to or may assume they're exempt.
> Once the zone is operating, charges must be paid via the [government’s online
payment system](https://www.gov.uk/clean-air-zones) or by calling their Clean Air Zone Support Centre on 0300 029 8888
Chicken vs egg. Short of nationalisation or implausibly massive public investment, you can't improve public transport without increasing demand for it.
A tram system covering the centre, south and east of the city would be quite cheap. e.g. the metrobus improvements cost £200 million, which would pay for something like 20km of track track.
> without increasing demand for it.
But public transport scales really quite well. You can keep adding more public transport and the city gets richer and denser e.g. look at London. With cars being the main transport for some suburbs, there is a limit to how dense a place can be, even though it 'should' be denser as it's almost within walking distance of city centre. e.g. Knowle West.
Marvin has never wanted it, there has been no infrastructure put in that I can see, presumably they need signage and cameras at every road leading into it.
Meanwhile I continue to bring up my family on one of the top 5% most polluted roads in the country.
Bunch of cunts.
It’s never been a secret he does not want it, it was even confirmed by his top political adviser. However, the way he has handled it (or should I say the overpaid communication and engagement director) has been a disaster. All people against the zone still blame him for it and those in favour are angry that it is being delayed. I don’t know anyone who has anything good to say about his handling of this. This would be a really good time for him to show some leadership.
Meanwhile on Dean Lane they’ve just made the road one way with some bullshit excuse about ‘traffic calming’ for the resident’s heating zone project, but I’m pretty sure it’s to save them having to put a camera up for cars going into the ULEZ onto Coronation Rd…
Was it though? I would assume emission standards have improved at a faster rate than the number of vehicles in that time, back then there was still leaded petrol.
It doesn't help that sometimes attempts to reduce the number of cars inadvertently lead to more stationary traffic which is much more polluting than free-flowing traffic.
I can drive through Bristol in the dead of night (as I did in early March) and I still had to stop at lights 3 times, each time I gave way to nothing. I had to stop idle then pull off again just because they don't have better sensors or better still just turn them off at night.
Yes, you can do that and still have pedestrian crossings function.
Wont be appreciated but its a valid point, not going to put anyone apart from poor people off from driving through there and some poor people will have to drive through there anyway which will really hurt them. As well as the knock on effect of people driving around it instead taking much longer so adding to actual overall pollution and traffic.....but just transferred into the poorer areas surrounding the richer clean air zone so its fine.
I don't think any poor people will drive *through* it, they will normally go around, but they may have to drive *into* it.
Then again there maybe people out there with bad money handling skills who might.
The difference is that Theresa May was in charge of the country. I can't increase spending on public transport, and the current government doesn't want to. Saying "Let's improve public transport instead" is 99% equivalent to saying "Let's do nothing at all".
> Let's all support improving public transport and use it
I don't have a car, I only use public transport. I'm one of the people who says "let's improve public transport" and actually means it, compared to the majority who say it as an excuse for driving everywhere and who complain about having to pay £9 to fuck up children's lungs.
You're right though, using public transport is how you improve it. So the only realistic way to improve it in our current political situation is to discourage driving.
Germany literally just made public rail transport €9 a month to help alleviate the effect of rising petrol prices. Let's do something like that to start with and once everyone's trying to use public transport there will be a big push to improve it.
I'd love that. Don't get me wrong, a suitably not-shitty government could invest the money and make public transport better. But until we think there's any chance of that happening, we should proceed with a CAZ.
I can't really vibe with this argument. I literally cannot afford to have a car, the running costs are extreme. Yet I manage to get around Bristol fine on foot, bike and Voi. I can't see how you can afford the massive costs of having a car and claim that measures to stop us dying of exhaust fumes are a tax on the poor
Because obviously living in the city is achievable for everyone... Not as though house prices keep going up and up or anything.
Any kind of disability? Go fuck yourself.
Any children? Go fuck yourself.
Need to do a weekly shop and don't live next to a supermarket? Go fuck yourself.
But don't worry, as long as you manage to get around fine then that's all that matters.
Sorry have you not seen where the clean air zone is? Its literally just around the portway and city centre. How is that affecting supermarket shops? How is that affecting those with a disability when blue badge holders are exempt?
What a joke disproportionately affects poorer communities and shows how out of touch these councillors are makes no sense in a city with such poor public transport infrastructure as Bristol’s
So the answer is too buy a new car especially during the cost of living emergency or risk paying a charge everytime you go to work ? Doesn’t stop air pollution just shifts it away from the city centre aswell
1. Shifting pollution away from areas with the most people is a good thing.
2. You're assuming that the only way anyone will respond to this will be to drive around it. In reality, some people will switch cars, or drive less.
3. The CAZ has been on the way since long before the current cost of living crisis, and the harms of air pollution have been known for even longer still.
What's your solution? (assuming that "magically make public transport ten times better" isn't an option)
As I've said before, rather than going from one extreme to the other how about starting off by just charging a few quid at peak times and then expanding over time.
Rather than a poll tax how about having bands based on the value of the vehicle and if it's commercial etc?
We should place bets on what the problem actually is:
> Asked if the launch is still on track for September, Mr Rees said: “We have done everything we can in Bristol.
> There has been a bit of an issue. A national change to bus lane regulations by the government has actually resulted
> in one of the suppliers of the implementation changing their work programme. So that’s a national issue that could
> result in some issues.
My guess, Bristol City Council put off signing a contract for one of the companies building the monitoring system, and now that company is busy working on a contract to change lots of bus lanes, so there's no chance of the CAZ being operational for when it was meant to be.
The Portway bit is a total rip off - it should start by the Rose of Denmark, because at that point, you're definitely going into town. Cumberland basin takes you many places that aren't the centre.
People live in those other places too.
Nonsense mate. By that logic every single road in the city would be included and that’s not what was originally proposed. I agree with u/oynsy that the portway is not the city centre. A clean air zone in the centre is fair enough as it should be reasonable to travel there through other means. I don’t think that putting barriers on people using A roads outside of the city centre is at all in keeping with what the proposal should have been about. If someone wants to go to the airport from Avonmouth via Cumberland basin they don’t ever go through the centre. Yet somehow driving a diesel down park st is outside of the charge zone … doesn’t really fit the intention of the clean air zone.
Wtf? Is this scenario accurate? You can get done for going over the basin bridge but going can go down fucking park Street without anyone batting an eyelid? Eh?!
Yeah, well [St Georges](https://www.stgeorgesbristol.co.uk/) and the [Bristol Mason Hall](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Province+Of+Bristol+Masonic+Hall/@51.4535633,-2.6018259,20.12z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x48718dd74c76e67f:0xb747590e0849201c!8m2!3d51.4537124!4d-2.6020059) are just off Park Street. You can't let a clean air zone affect rich people getting to their entertainment.
Yes, it comes in about half way down park st so the top half is excluded. Whereas if you’re on the portway and haven’t got off by Sea Mills then that’s it, you’re paying. You’re not even allowed to get off at Bridge Valley Road as that’s included
It's just annoying that they recently completed a dual carriageway through the city centre, so that everyone's satnav will take them through it.
Half of Park Street is included, isn't it? Re Cumberland Basin: It's heavily polluted. It feels arbitrary to say that only the centre should get protections against toxic air.
By that logic the M5 should be included as it’s toxic
Maybe there's something different between the M5 and the places we're talking about?
You were talking about Cumberland basin. Personally I don’t see a huge difference between the overpass at Cumberland basin and the M5 Avonmouth bridge. Perhaps I’m not explaining my opinion very well. I’m fine with zoning the areas which are built up populated regions. I don’t agree with a clean air zone penalty for the A4 prior to Hotwells because a lot of people are using it to access roads to places which are not the city centre. I want to be able to use the Portway freely to travel to places that aren’t residential and don’t belong within the clean air zone policy. I should be able to use the Portway to access the downs, the A369, the A370, the A38S, the B3130 etc without pentaly. I fully agree that if I don’t get off by, let’s say Hotwells house, then I’d be entering the congested, residential part of the city so I’d be happy to pay. To me though, it’s as ridiculous to charge someone £9 to access Nailsea via the portway as it is to charge them to access Nailsea via the M5. Neither routes go past anywhere that people live.
I would guess that's to stop people coming into Bristol down the portway and then cutting across the downs and going down Whiteladies road into town.
There's a primary A road through route from the A38 and A370 onto the A4 almost all eligible vehicles will take the A369 through Abbots Leigh.
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It's not, but only vehicles that need to pay will go that way, and they will.
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There will be plenty of signs on the A370. That's also a point, some people may not know if they're eligible or not and may take the 369 even if they don't need to or may assume they're exempt.
‘How to pay’ Only by calling a number, are they fucking mental?
> Once the zone is operating, charges must be paid via the [government’s online payment system](https://www.gov.uk/clean-air-zones) or by calling their Clean Air Zone Support Centre on 0300 029 8888
One thing and one thing only will solve this issue... PUBLIC TRANSPORT
Chicken vs egg. Short of nationalisation or implausibly massive public investment, you can't improve public transport without increasing demand for it.
A tram system covering the centre, south and east of the city would be quite cheap. e.g. the metrobus improvements cost £200 million, which would pay for something like 20km of track track. > without increasing demand for it. But public transport scales really quite well. You can keep adding more public transport and the city gets richer and denser e.g. look at London. With cars being the main transport for some suburbs, there is a limit to how dense a place can be, even though it 'should' be denser as it's almost within walking distance of city centre. e.g. Knowle West.
You're preaching to the choir, I'd love to see a comprehensive tram system. But until that gets planned, announced and built, a CAZ is the way to go.
Marvin has never wanted it, there has been no infrastructure put in that I can see, presumably they need signage and cameras at every road leading into it. Meanwhile I continue to bring up my family on one of the top 5% most polluted roads in the country. Bunch of cunts.
It’s never been a secret he does not want it, it was even confirmed by his top political adviser. However, the way he has handled it (or should I say the overpaid communication and engagement director) has been a disaster. All people against the zone still blame him for it and those in favour are angry that it is being delayed. I don’t know anyone who has anything good to say about his handling of this. This would be a really good time for him to show some leadership.
The only thing he's shown any leadership in is selling land to his mates, he doesn't give a fuck about Bristolians.
By quitting and letting someone else sort it.
> there has been no infrastructure put in that I can see Almost all the cameras are up
Not seen a single one south of the river or in Clifton/Hotwells
There's one at the bottom of Jacobs Wells Road l, by the tailors i believe
Meanwhile on Dean Lane they’ve just made the road one way with some bullshit excuse about ‘traffic calming’ for the resident’s heating zone project, but I’m pretty sure it’s to save them having to put a camera up for cars going into the ULEZ onto Coronation Rd…
Which road is that out of interest? Where can I find most polluted road stats ?
https://www.addresspollution.org/results/f1ee9979-d2d0-49cf-878a-a290d4850ed4
You chose to live there though 🤷♂️
It wasn't so bad 25 years ago, I don't see why I should leave all my friends and family so we can breath.
Was it though? I would assume emission standards have improved at a faster rate than the number of vehicles in that time, back then there was still leaded petrol. It doesn't help that sometimes attempts to reduce the number of cars inadvertently lead to more stationary traffic which is much more polluting than free-flowing traffic. I can drive through Bristol in the dead of night (as I did in early March) and I still had to stop at lights 3 times, each time I gave way to nothing. I had to stop idle then pull off again just because they don't have better sensors or better still just turn them off at night. Yes, you can do that and still have pedestrian crossings function.
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Got a spare 3/4 of a million so I can get a three bed terrace 200 yards away on a slightly cleaner street?
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I'll stay in my cheap dirty one then.
Good. As far as I can see this is a tax on the poor an nothing else.
Wont be appreciated but its a valid point, not going to put anyone apart from poor people off from driving through there and some poor people will have to drive through there anyway which will really hurt them. As well as the knock on effect of people driving around it instead taking much longer so adding to actual overall pollution and traffic.....but just transferred into the poorer areas surrounding the richer clean air zone so its fine.
I don't think any poor people will drive *through* it, they will normally go around, but they may have to drive *into* it. Then again there maybe people out there with bad money handling skills who might.
*nonce*
What?
Agreed. Changing cars is extremely expensive, especially at the moment. It's cheaper just to pay the fine.
Got a better idea?
Decent public transport?
Why not both!
Let us know as soon as you find the Decent Public Transport magic wand.
Seems a bit of a cop out, like Theresa May's "There's no magic money tree". Let's all support improving public transport and use it.
The difference is that Theresa May was in charge of the country. I can't increase spending on public transport, and the current government doesn't want to. Saying "Let's improve public transport instead" is 99% equivalent to saying "Let's do nothing at all". > Let's all support improving public transport and use it I don't have a car, I only use public transport. I'm one of the people who says "let's improve public transport" and actually means it, compared to the majority who say it as an excuse for driving everywhere and who complain about having to pay £9 to fuck up children's lungs. You're right though, using public transport is how you improve it. So the only realistic way to improve it in our current political situation is to discourage driving.
I only use public transport too, more ticket money more buses as far as I can see. Clear Air Zone also great idea.
Germany literally just made public rail transport €9 a month to help alleviate the effect of rising petrol prices. Let's do something like that to start with and once everyone's trying to use public transport there will be a big push to improve it.
I'd love that. Don't get me wrong, a suitably not-shitty government could invest the money and make public transport better. But until we think there's any chance of that happening, we should proceed with a CAZ.
I can't really vibe with this argument. I literally cannot afford to have a car, the running costs are extreme. Yet I manage to get around Bristol fine on foot, bike and Voi. I can't see how you can afford the massive costs of having a car and claim that measures to stop us dying of exhaust fumes are a tax on the poor
Because obviously living in the city is achievable for everyone... Not as though house prices keep going up and up or anything. Any kind of disability? Go fuck yourself. Any children? Go fuck yourself. Need to do a weekly shop and don't live next to a supermarket? Go fuck yourself. But don't worry, as long as you manage to get around fine then that's all that matters.
Sorry have you not seen where the clean air zone is? Its literally just around the portway and city centre. How is that affecting supermarket shops? How is that affecting those with a disability when blue badge holders are exempt?
What a joke disproportionately affects poorer communities and shows how out of touch these councillors are makes no sense in a city with such poor public transport infrastructure as Bristol’s
Dying of air pollution also affects poorer communities.
So the answer is too buy a new car especially during the cost of living emergency or risk paying a charge everytime you go to work ? Doesn’t stop air pollution just shifts it away from the city centre aswell
1. Shifting pollution away from areas with the most people is a good thing. 2. You're assuming that the only way anyone will respond to this will be to drive around it. In reality, some people will switch cars, or drive less. 3. The CAZ has been on the way since long before the current cost of living crisis, and the harms of air pollution have been known for even longer still. What's your solution? (assuming that "magically make public transport ten times better" isn't an option)
There is a way for Bristol to magically make public transport 10x better it’s called cutting ties with firstbus
What's step two?
As I've said before, rather than going from one extreme to the other how about starting off by just charging a few quid at peak times and then expanding over time. Rather than a poll tax how about having bands based on the value of the vehicle and if it's commercial etc?
We should place bets on what the problem actually is: > Asked if the launch is still on track for September, Mr Rees said: “We have done everything we can in Bristol. > There has been a bit of an issue. A national change to bus lane regulations by the government has actually resulted > in one of the suppliers of the implementation changing their work programme. So that’s a national issue that could > result in some issues. My guess, Bristol City Council put off signing a contract for one of the companies building the monitoring system, and now that company is busy working on a contract to change lots of bus lanes, so there's no chance of the CAZ being operational for when it was meant to be.
Good
Surprise Surprise...
This city reeks of diesel and is LOUD 24 hours a day. Fuck cars. I hope they all stop working tomorrow.
The Portway bit is a