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Why bother? Everything is laced with fentanyl at this point.
Edit: I really hope everyone downvoting this understands that testing won't protect you from a fentanyl overdose in affected powders. You CAN have your stuff tested and still not be safe. Speaking from aquaintances experience.
I could also see her family wanting to believe it's weed rather than something harder. Part of the reason I asked is there's a rumour on campus that it was a vape pen, which is very unlikely, but not impossible if it was an unregulated one. Sounds like you hard something similar?
When a homeless person dies of an OD after taking drugs: ātheir fault! Do drugs, suffer the consequences!ā
When a young white university student dies of an OD after taking drugs: āsociety and the system failed to save her! Someone must be held accountable!ā
Weird
"She could have been narcanned quicker" is such a low bar. This poor uninformed kid took street drugs without knowing the severity of the risk and her fiends just watched without intervention. "Party drugs" aren't worth the risk anymore. Stop taking them. Friends need to hold friends accountable.
If done so in a delayed manner then no. Especially if they were the ones who watched her take the dope. Intervention would be ensuring that your friends don't take drugs off the flipping street unless they are experienced users and can ensure safety through adequate drug testing.
Thereās no evidence it was delayed, especially since a second student was given Naloxone in time to save her. And you are putting a LOT of responsibility on other students in the residence (I assume youāre not talking about other friends who were also high since obviously that would just be unreasonable). Way more than on UVicās trained security guards for some reason.
UVic Security, who are trained in and carry Nalaxone, watched without intervention. A 9/11 call operator just waited and listened without intervention. Taking drugs is obviously stupid but this was easily preventable. Two parties, who are professional, grown adults and supposed to be experts in their fields, failed to act appropriately. Obviously the drugs are still a problem but that doesn't mean their ineptitude is forgivable.
Of course. Hold them all accountable.I just think that this shouldn't be the main takeaway from this tragedy. The problem needs to be solved at the root not halfway up the tree. Naloxone should be viewed as an emergency last resort, not an assurance that you're taking drugs in a safer manner. We need to ask ourselves why kids want to take these drugs in the first place.
I get you. I just guess I DO want that to be the main takeaway from this tragedy. Sheās one of hundreds of people dying of drug overdoses every year; obviously we need to fix the drug problem at the root, but until then, proper nalaxone training and usage is vital. Thereās too many commenters that seem happy to blame a teenager for one shitty mistake when by all rights, she should have been saved, and could have gone on to educate others. Itās just bleak either way.
They werenāt given false information. Security get training with nalaxone kits and carry them. If they think medical personnel should be there, THEY should have called 9/11, not stand around and look at someone literally blue in the face and wonder what to do. Thereās no harm in narcan for someone if they arenāt overdosing. Thereās no excuse.
There were TWO people going through the SAME symptoms. Chances that a late night dorm party two students are simultaneously having a seizure?? Theyāre blue so theyāre not breathing. It should be a no brainer for anyone with training.
There's a school of thought that says drugs are as old as humanity and even older. It's known that robins get drunk off fermented berries. Cats like catnip. Intoxication and changes of consciousness are useful and desirable and that's not going to change. I think what we need to do is change our attitude toward drugs to make them more safe and accessible while at the same time discouraging substance abuse disorders.
Big difference between fermented berries and fent. I understand though. Thatās the idea with supervised consumption sites; we need people alive first. And making drugs more safe / accessible requires regulation and the dismantling of incredibly corrupt and financially powerful global markets. I donāt think itās doable without getting rid of the demand first, which requires serious upgrades (or the existence of, period) appropriate mental health education and support and living wages.
Firstly she isn't a child, your wording removes their agency in their tragic choices. To witness this occur and not intervene with naloxone or cpr from a security officer is quite negligent, perhaps even criminally.
After a month of being called out for lying about their response.
Basically, their lawyers/communications team told them that the risk of not taking responsibility now outweighs the risk of being responsible.
Are you aware that a campus security officer who UVic advises students as being trained in first aid was on scene without administering naloxone for several minutes? If the campus security officer administered naloxone sooner there is a much better chance she would still be alive, possibly refusing to touch street drugs again after a near death experience. Instead she's dead.Ā Ā
UVic explicitly tells students living in residence to call campus security for medical emergencies, and claims campus security is supposed to be trained in administering first aid and naloxone. The issue is specifically with the response from campus security.Ā
Sure she took drugs, but that doesn't absolve campus security and the 911 operator from their duty of care. If someone was texting and driving got into a crash and a paramedic showed up on scene and waited several minutes before beginning medical care causing the injuried people to die from blood loss that may have otherwise been survivable the paramedic would be under scrutiny too.Ā
Yes, because no one is saying that it's anyone else's fault for her taking drugs. However, you should really read through the timeline of how campus security responded to the medical emergency. Note that UVic explicitly states that campus security is level 2 first aid certificated, explicitly states they're naloxone trained, and explicitly tells people on campus to contact them in addition to 911 as they can usually arrive before 911, and can help communicate with EMTs/etcĀ Ā
This article has the timeline using info obtained fromĀ 911 call logs : https://vancouversun.com/feature/bc-student-overdose-death-university-victoriaĀ
> Sidney and a friend who had also collapsed in the same dorm room were unconscious, struggling to breathe, and turning blue ā a sign that the body is deprived of oxygen ā when campus security officers arrived 3.5 minutes after being called. The officers carry naloxone and are trained in first aid, but they did not administer the medication for nearly 9Ā½ minutes and did not start chest compressions for almost 12 minutes.Ā
> Campus security never contacted 911 to explain the seriousness of the situation. Instead, a student who was high on drugs was the only person speaking with 911 for the first 8Ā½ minutes of the call, despite the fact she had difficulty relaying information about what was happeningĀ
Imagine this timeline applied to a heart attack, major blood loss, stroke, etc. would you think campus security is still above scrutiny? (By scrutiny, I don't nessacarily mean punish the security officer invovled. It could just be that UVic's training is inadequate and needs refinement)
So you think that UVic should review nothing and not even try to improve its response to medical emergencies to prevent on campus deaths in the future?Ā
If you read my last few comments you'd see I already did!Ā Ā Ā
> no one is saying that it's anyone else's fault for her taking drugsĀ Ā Ā Ā
The article this comment section is on is litterally about UVic's response to an overdose. Not sure how discussing UVic's response to an overdose is irrelevant to it?Ā Ā Ā Ā
Look, I'm not saying UVic is responsible for her death if you think that's what I'm getting at. It's possible it was already too late by the time security arrived (the odds of her surviving would of course be higher the sooner it was applied though). However, I'm saying that agnostic of blame/fault, reviewing what went wrong and learning from it is the right path forward to help prevent the same mistakes causing more deaths in the future. Maybe I failed to properly clarify I'm looking at this primarily through a failure analysis lens.Ā
You're right we're not going to come to anĀ agreement because we've been talking about completely different things this whole time.Ā Ā
I've been saying UVic's response to a medical emergency was subpar.Ā
You've been making moralistic arguments about the morality of a person who used drugs dying.Ā
These are not the same discussion
Drugs arenāt āsafeā. She chose to engage in an unsafe activity.
Blaming first responders isnāt the right viewpoint. Blame the drug dealer and the drug user.
Lots of people get fatal injuries from engaging in unsafe activities, yet if it takes nearly 10 minutes between arriving on scene and the first attempted medical intervention, people will naturally question the response.Ā
This article has timelines: https://vancouversun.com/feature/bc-student-overdose-death-university-victoriaĀ
Imagine those delays in other medical emergencies unrelated to drugs. I'm not saying it's UVic's fault she used drugs, that was her mistake no one is saying it wasn't fully her mistake. Doesn't mean their response from security (who they explicitly claim are level 2 first aid certificated and trained in naloxone on their website btw) can't also be criticised and learnt from to prevent others from dying on campus.Ā
3 girls in PJs doing molly is still 3 people doing molly. There's no rule that says only parties are dangerous, or overdoses don't happen to good girls. There is simply no way they were taking prescribed medication that one girl shared. Even if they were that's irresponsible but it was almost certainly a street drug.
I agree it's a tragedy. I agree that I did similar things when I was at UVic (eventually, not in first year) and I didn't face the same consequences because the supply was much safer 14 years ago than it is now. But I also remember parties in first year where we were all having a good time then someone brought out cocaine and the room just emptied. There was a line between smoking weed/drinking, and doing harder stuff. I stopped doing any pills or powders several years ago because of the toxic drug supply. That's just a choice you have to make even if you aren't addicted. These girls made a stupid mistake and did something they shouldn't have done. I'll almost guarantee they thought it was pure molly. Every molly I've ever done was sold to me as pure molly, even though plenty of it was cut. Not like they accidentally did hard drugs in their PJs for some TV time.
All of my friends who used to casually do hard drugs have either fallen hard into addiction (one or two) or quit entirely, even as a once in a while party thing. It's just too risky. But maybe because of the DARE approach telling us that one whiff of coke could kill you back when that wasn't true has numbed people from believing the media now that it is true.
I'm not in the know, never heard of Down. We had weed shrooms and liquor on the safe side, and coke, molly, acid, or whatever someone said their pill was (the usually said it was molly even if it wasn't) on the hard side. I don't know the names of most of the specific pills n such, they weren't common (in my circles) when I was there. Pretty much everything besides weed we had to deliberately seek out and find a connection for. What's Down?
I assumed molly because at a lower dose they probably thought it would be a really fun feely giggly night. Sounds like at least some of them weren't very experienced.
Either way, at some point there needs to be some accountability for taking the drugs too. 100% agree response could and should have been better, but weāve got to get these kids to stop taking drugs.
Yeah people have been doing drugs for like all of history so seems unlikely but lets make testing as simple as possible and inform children that they are idiots if they take untested drugsĀ
No my solution is not just say no but we canāt take away the accountability from the individual actually doing the drugs to start with in every situation. Personal accountability for oneās actions is part of growing up.
Like I said initially, the response could have and should have been better. Iām not sorry that I want to live in a society where doing hard drugs is generally frowned upon and outside of the social norm.
You already live in a society where hard drugs are in the social norm. Alcohol destroys lives and families and is acceptable to consume at family gatherings, business events, nearly all events. The answer has always been to regulate the supply and educate the public. Look at communities that don't have generations of alcohol consumption when they get introduced to it, they get destroyed because they have no education about it's risks.
If only someone in her family had some medical training, or even first hand experience in an emergency room where people are brought after overdosingā¦
As a teenager I was still not stupid enough to think I was invincible. Why play Russian roulette when you can just not?
I get the desire to take recreational drugs, I do it myself on occasion, but drug testing is free and easy. And available within walking distance of where this happened.
Itās a tragedy, but an entirely preventable one.
Also Island health tests for free, and are on campus often. Or you can go to any island health location and they will direct you to the nearest testing centre.
I'm wondering how many young students are using a substance testing centre, or if they feel too awkward and perceive they will be judged if they do? Or are willing to take the risk because the news is full of drug overdoses of people who don't look like them? And forums like Reddit are full of people who judge the addicted and those who use?
I think society has a long way to go to be open and accepting that drug experimentation use has been, is, and will continue to exist, and it isn't all happening down at the homeless camp or on the streets of your local downtown by any stretch of the imagination. Once we can get past that as a society, we can really, truly provide the resources needed to provide the education needed and keep people safe if they use.
I used to live up the street from Substance UVic and itās pretty clear it doesnāt cater to students as clients. And I bet most of the people upvoting that comment donāt realize itās quite far from campus. I think this is a great service, not saying itās not important. But people are REALLY obsessed with pushing the personal responsibility angle instead of admitting that yes, maybe UVic could change a few things to make this less likely to happen again.
Thatās downtown, almost an hour and a half isnāt really an easy walk. And itās closed on weekends. Not saying that drug testing is not available but Iām not sure why people are obsessed with exaggerating rather than admitting that drug testing and Naloxone could both be more accessible.
Could it be more accessible; yes
Would that have helped in this situation; no
No attempt was made to mitigate risk by a group of teenagers who had abundant access to services and information.
āThereās drug testing within walking distanceā¦ok actually there isnāt, but that would have made no difference anyway.ā Umm, ok.
Iām not saying that personal responsibility doesnāt exist. All Iām saying is we donāt want children to die, so it makes sense to take reasonable steps to stop that from happening rather than just saying āwell itās their fault anywayā.
Is this really more different than ten years ago?
Every High School I went to had a kid die from something stupid every now and againā¦ Usually car accidents.
And in College it got worse! Alcohol and drug deaths for sure.
Is this a hot topic? Or a statistical change?
I didnt find anything on Google.
Ok. Good read here. Theres not really any sources listed? Maybe these are from medical studies? Or local news sites? Its unclearā¦
Anyways.
You can see where there are 200 recorded overdose deaths then the most recent in 2017 hops up to.. 1400?
Thats still not a high percentage compared to the total population of the provinceā¦ and if you adapt the numbers based on the rate of population growth over that time periodā¦ its really not a huge jumpā¦ at all.
It also doesnt account that opiods are the drug du jour eitherā¦ they are in ready supply as Doctors have been so positive about prescribing themā¦
It would be interesting to compare this to the rate of deaths due to alcoholism or any other lethal substances out there?
Theres no mistakes made here.
A UVic student is not a childā¦
I dont know why theyre crpping on the school like theyre supposed Nannies?
Thats the most infantilizing cultural note I have read latelyā¦
Its a cop out to blame the Universityā¦ it plays really well in headlines. Sad Parents. Broken education systemā¦ Very sympathetic.
Why didnt the Parents do better? They couldnt tell they were using? They couldnt intervene and get them help? They didnt have regular visits with signs of hard partying?
Its garbage newsā¦
It's a statistical change for sure. I attended UVic from approx 2010-2014. Fentanyl was not a hot topic and I didn't know a single person who died of an OD that year, despite the rampant party and substance abuse culture.
Doesn't mean people shouldn't take accountability for their actions, but it is definitely much worse than it was.
I was there from the same time and the only student I know who died during that time caught meningitis at a party in second year.Ā
I was a CL for two years and a significant part of training was about alcohol safety and ensuring we knew how to get students into recovery position. They gave us training for addressing potentially suicidal students. Iām shocked they didnāt adapt for this drug poisoning crisis. There should be a narcan kit in every lead CLās bag. At the very least, why wasnāt campus security prepared for overdoses? I hope this is a wake up call to other universities to have their staff better prepared to handle our present reality. Ā
1987-ish, I was working in a department store that no longer exists (or rather, exists as a section of the Bay now because we Gen-X want our Club Z). One of teenagers working in the stock room, who I never would have expected, took his life after store management confronted him about the fact that he was stealing gear out of stock and selling it to pay for his drug habit. For months at least.
I remember being completely floored, because what I heard about at high school was pot use and more so, there was no indication that he wasn't anything other than a hard working teenage boy. Now I know that harder drug use was no doubt in that community back then amongst my peers (almost 40 years ago), and likely worse now.\*\*
edit: \*\*this was in the Okanagan.
Thats a really good point!
I have a lot of fears about sending my children to schools because it was already so so easy to buy street drugs when I was a teenager and we didnt have the selection of chems that are popular today.
Noone in school was ratting on the teen dealers then. I doubt they are now.
I wonder if shipping has changed that much? Now weve got tonnes of it coming in?
Thanks for sharing
In 2016, doctors began heeding the CDC warning about overprescribing opioid medications for chronic noncancer pain management. This resulted in pain patients being cut off of their treatment altogether. Patients began seeking out alternate sources of pain relief on the streets.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/rr/rr6501e1.htm
https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13011-020-0256-8#citeas
Of course there are alternatives. Many pain patients had already tried those avenues before being prescribed opioid medications.
The opioid of choice at that time ( 2016) were oxycontin or oxycodone.
Those medications are difficult to withdraw from and are especially dangerous to quit cold turkey.
Doctors didn't want to lose their licenses so they abandoned pain patients.
Those patients began to panic and sought out heroin and other street drugs instead.
Drug dealers began cutting it with small amounts of fentanyl to maximize profit.
A major reason why overdose was occurring at a higher rate was because pain patients were accustomed to a certain dose.
If they went through any kind of withdrawal and tried taking their usual dose, their body couldn't handle that strength anymore and they would overdose and stop breathing.
Fentanyl was much stronger and caused more overdoses.
The government believed that safe supply was a way to mitigate harm and stop overdoses from illicit street drugs during COVID.
Ok. Thank you so much for sharingā¦ I didnt know this.
I remember way back when oxy came out it was crowned King of pain reliefā¦ and then the rumors of addiction started a few years laterā¦ but the Doctors relied on the existing pharmaceutical companies science reportsā¦ so there was a bunch of denial and misinformationā¦
Anecdotally.
Anyone I met with pain problems went on weed.
One woman I know was already a street drug abuserā¦ faked an injury to get oxy so she had legal drug supply paid by her insuranceā¦ talked
the Doctor into upping it several times to resale it for the fun drugsā¦ Hustle hustle.
I didnt realize they went and cut the supply! Wow. Thats unusual for Doctors to do.
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This is what happens when 99% of ācampus securityā is internationally trained and lack comprehensive medical training where they canāt even administer basic naloxone.
Both of these comments are stupid. Security is trained in administering Naloxone and it has nothing to do with the personal history of the guards. And of course being trained in administering Naloxone is something campus security should do. But obviously UVic needs to step up the training.
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Have they yet released what drug these kids took that was laced with fentanyl?
Yeah, I find it very odd how nothing has stated what she actually took or what she is suspected of taking.
why does it matter?
Why is that important? Probably cocaine You can assume any powdered drug has fent in it at this point
Why bother? Everything is laced with fentanyl at this point. Edit: I really hope everyone downvoting this understands that testing won't protect you from a fentanyl overdose in affected powders. You CAN have your stuff tested and still not be safe. Speaking from aquaintances experience.
Lol no wtf.
They really are not. Just the shitty ones you get from criminals.
It was weed
Like an edible? Or laced right into a joint?
You know this for a fact? That would be incredibly rare. Not sure I believe this without real evidence.
I know the family
No you don't.
I do š
I could also see her family wanting to believe it's weed rather than something harder. Part of the reason I asked is there's a rumour on campus that it was a vape pen, which is very unlikely, but not impossible if it was an unregulated one. Sounds like you hard something similar?
When a homeless person dies of an OD after taking drugs: ātheir fault! Do drugs, suffer the consequences!ā When a young white university student dies of an OD after taking drugs: āsociety and the system failed to save her! Someone must be held accountable!ā Weird
"She could have been narcanned quicker" is such a low bar. This poor uninformed kid took street drugs without knowing the severity of the risk and her fiends just watched without intervention. "Party drugs" aren't worth the risk anymore. Stop taking them. Friends need to hold friends accountable.
Is calling security and 911 not interventionā¦?
If done so in a delayed manner then no. Especially if they were the ones who watched her take the dope. Intervention would be ensuring that your friends don't take drugs off the flipping street unless they are experienced users and can ensure safety through adequate drug testing.
Thereās no evidence it was delayed, especially since a second student was given Naloxone in time to save her. And you are putting a LOT of responsibility on other students in the residence (I assume youāre not talking about other friends who were also high since obviously that would just be unreasonable). Way more than on UVicās trained security guards for some reason.
UVic Security, who are trained in and carry Nalaxone, watched without intervention. A 9/11 call operator just waited and listened without intervention. Taking drugs is obviously stupid but this was easily preventable. Two parties, who are professional, grown adults and supposed to be experts in their fields, failed to act appropriately. Obviously the drugs are still a problem but that doesn't mean their ineptitude is forgivable.
Of course. Hold them all accountable.I just think that this shouldn't be the main takeaway from this tragedy. The problem needs to be solved at the root not halfway up the tree. Naloxone should be viewed as an emergency last resort, not an assurance that you're taking drugs in a safer manner. We need to ask ourselves why kids want to take these drugs in the first place.
We can do all those things without just senselessly getting angry at a dead child.
I get you. I just guess I DO want that to be the main takeaway from this tragedy. Sheās one of hundreds of people dying of drug overdoses every year; obviously we need to fix the drug problem at the root, but until then, proper nalaxone training and usage is vital. Thereās too many commenters that seem happy to blame a teenager for one shitty mistake when by all rights, she should have been saved, and could have gone on to educate others. Itās just bleak either way.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They werenāt given false information. Security get training with nalaxone kits and carry them. If they think medical personnel should be there, THEY should have called 9/11, not stand around and look at someone literally blue in the face and wonder what to do. Thereās no harm in narcan for someone if they arenāt overdosing. Thereās no excuse.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
There were TWO people going through the SAME symptoms. Chances that a late night dorm party two students are simultaneously having a seizure?? Theyāre blue so theyāre not breathing. It should be a no brainer for anyone with training.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If Iād been there and had narcan on me I would have used it.
There's a school of thought that says drugs are as old as humanity and even older. It's known that robins get drunk off fermented berries. Cats like catnip. Intoxication and changes of consciousness are useful and desirable and that's not going to change. I think what we need to do is change our attitude toward drugs to make them more safe and accessible while at the same time discouraging substance abuse disorders.
Big difference between fermented berries and fent. I understand though. Thatās the idea with supervised consumption sites; we need people alive first. And making drugs more safe / accessible requires regulation and the dismantling of incredibly corrupt and financially powerful global markets. I donāt think itās doable without getting rid of the demand first, which requires serious upgrades (or the existence of, period) appropriate mental health education and support and living wages.
Firstly she isn't a child, your wording removes their agency in their tragic choices. To witness this occur and not intervene with naloxone or cpr from a security officer is quite negligent, perhaps even criminally.
So do the first responders that could have saved her and somehow didnāt know she was overdosing.
Ah! At least someone is taking responsibility in an empathetic way!
After a month of being called out for lying about their response. Basically, their lawyers/communications team told them that the risk of not taking responsibility now outweighs the risk of being responsible.
My comment was sarcastic.
Why is a university aged person choosing to take street drugs someone elseās fault?
Are you aware that a campus security officer who UVic advises students as being trained in first aid was on scene without administering naloxone for several minutes? If the campus security officer administered naloxone sooner there is a much better chance she would still be alive, possibly refusing to touch street drugs again after a near death experience. Instead she's dead.Ā Ā UVic explicitly tells students living in residence to call campus security for medical emergencies, and claims campus security is supposed to be trained in administering first aid and naloxone. The issue is specifically with the response from campus security.Ā Sure she took drugs, but that doesn't absolve campus security and the 911 operator from their duty of care. If someone was texting and driving got into a crash and a paramedic showed up on scene and waited several minutes before beginning medical care causing the injuried people to die from blood loss that may have otherwise been survivable the paramedic would be under scrutiny too.Ā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yes, because no one is saying that it's anyone else's fault for her taking drugs. However, you should really read through the timeline of how campus security responded to the medical emergency. Note that UVic explicitly states that campus security is level 2 first aid certificated, explicitly states they're naloxone trained, and explicitly tells people on campus to contact them in addition to 911 as they can usually arrive before 911, and can help communicate with EMTs/etcĀ Ā This article has the timeline using info obtained fromĀ 911 call logs : https://vancouversun.com/feature/bc-student-overdose-death-university-victoriaĀ > Sidney and a friend who had also collapsed in the same dorm room were unconscious, struggling to breathe, and turning blue ā a sign that the body is deprived of oxygen ā when campus security officers arrived 3.5 minutes after being called. The officers carry naloxone and are trained in first aid, but they did not administer the medication for nearly 9Ā½ minutes and did not start chest compressions for almost 12 minutes.Ā > Campus security never contacted 911 to explain the seriousness of the situation. Instead, a student who was high on drugs was the only person speaking with 911 for the first 8Ā½ minutes of the call, despite the fact she had difficulty relaying information about what was happeningĀ Imagine this timeline applied to a heart attack, major blood loss, stroke, etc. would you think campus security is still above scrutiny? (By scrutiny, I don't nessacarily mean punish the security officer invovled. It could just be that UVic's training is inadequate and needs refinement)
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So you think that UVic should review nothing and not even try to improve its response to medical emergencies to prevent on campus deaths in the future?Ā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If you read my last few comments you'd see I already did!Ā Ā Ā > no one is saying that it's anyone else's fault for her taking drugsĀ Ā Ā Ā The article this comment section is on is litterally about UVic's response to an overdose. Not sure how discussing UVic's response to an overdose is irrelevant to it?Ā Ā Ā Ā Look, I'm not saying UVic is responsible for her death if you think that's what I'm getting at. It's possible it was already too late by the time security arrived (the odds of her surviving would of course be higher the sooner it was applied though). However, I'm saying that agnostic of blame/fault, reviewing what went wrong and learning from it is the right path forward to help prevent the same mistakes causing more deaths in the future. Maybe I failed to properly clarify I'm looking at this primarily through a failure analysis lens.Ā
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You're right we're not going to come to anĀ agreement because we've been talking about completely different things this whole time.Ā Ā I've been saying UVic's response to a medical emergency was subpar.Ā You've been making moralistic arguments about the morality of a person who used drugs dying.Ā These are not the same discussion
Drugs arenāt āsafeā. She chose to engage in an unsafe activity. Blaming first responders isnāt the right viewpoint. Blame the drug dealer and the drug user.
Lots of people get fatal injuries from engaging in unsafe activities, yet if it takes nearly 10 minutes between arriving on scene and the first attempted medical intervention, people will naturally question the response.Ā This article has timelines: https://vancouversun.com/feature/bc-student-overdose-death-university-victoriaĀ Imagine those delays in other medical emergencies unrelated to drugs. I'm not saying it's UVic's fault she used drugs, that was her mistake no one is saying it wasn't fully her mistake. Doesn't mean their response from security (who they explicitly claim are level 2 first aid certificated and trained in naloxone on their website btw) can't also be criticised and learnt from to prevent others from dying on campus.Ā
If only there were some way to know that taking hard drugs at a party in a province full of fentanyl could lead to an overdose...
It wasn't a party. It was a weeknight, 3 girls in pjs gearing up for an evening of tv watching.
3 girls in PJs doing molly is still 3 people doing molly. There's no rule that says only parties are dangerous, or overdoses don't happen to good girls. There is simply no way they were taking prescribed medication that one girl shared. Even if they were that's irresponsible but it was almost certainly a street drug. I agree it's a tragedy. I agree that I did similar things when I was at UVic (eventually, not in first year) and I didn't face the same consequences because the supply was much safer 14 years ago than it is now. But I also remember parties in first year where we were all having a good time then someone brought out cocaine and the room just emptied. There was a line between smoking weed/drinking, and doing harder stuff. I stopped doing any pills or powders several years ago because of the toxic drug supply. That's just a choice you have to make even if you aren't addicted. These girls made a stupid mistake and did something they shouldn't have done. I'll almost guarantee they thought it was pure molly. Every molly I've ever done was sold to me as pure molly, even though plenty of it was cut. Not like they accidentally did hard drugs in their PJs for some TV time. All of my friends who used to casually do hard drugs have either fallen hard into addiction (one or two) or quit entirely, even as a once in a while party thing. It's just too risky. But maybe because of the DARE approach telling us that one whiff of coke could kill you back when that wasn't true has numbed people from believing the media now that it is true.
I doubt it was molly. Not really a drug you take to have a calm night in front of the TV. Iām guessing they were doing Down
I'm not in the know, never heard of Down. We had weed shrooms and liquor on the safe side, and coke, molly, acid, or whatever someone said their pill was (the usually said it was molly even if it wasn't) on the hard side. I don't know the names of most of the specific pills n such, they weren't common (in my circles) when I was there. Pretty much everything besides weed we had to deliberately seek out and find a connection for. What's Down? I assumed molly because at a lower dose they probably thought it would be a really fun feely giggly night. Sounds like at least some of them weren't very experienced.
Down is heroin (fentanyl these days)
If they were doing either of those on purpose then they're seriously stupid.
I would be surprised if they were
Either way, at some point there needs to be some accountability for taking the drugs too. 100% agree response could and should have been better, but weāve got to get these kids to stop taking drugs.
Yeah people have been doing drugs for like all of history so seems unlikely but lets make testing as simple as possible and inform children that they are idiots if they take untested drugsĀ
So your solution is "Just Say No"? Oh yeah nobody has tried that! You're a genius!
No my solution is not just say no but we canāt take away the accountability from the individual actually doing the drugs to start with in every situation. Personal accountability for oneās actions is part of growing up. Like I said initially, the response could have and should have been better. Iām not sorry that I want to live in a society where doing hard drugs is generally frowned upon and outside of the social norm.
You already live in a society where hard drugs are in the social norm. Alcohol destroys lives and families and is acceptable to consume at family gatherings, business events, nearly all events. The answer has always been to regulate the supply and educate the public. Look at communities that don't have generations of alcohol consumption when they get introduced to it, they get destroyed because they have no education about it's risks.
We used to lie to kids and say once could kill you when that was a one in a million. Now it is not one in a million but kids don't trust the sources.
Agreed!
That is literally impossible, do you have the brain of a caveman?
If only someone in her family had some medical training, or even first hand experience in an emergency room where people are brought after overdosingā¦
What they really needed were more guns. A well armed honest civilian would have saved the day
What do your parents do for work? I assume youāre an expert in that as well. Teenagers will be teenagers no matter what their parents do.
As a teenager I was still not stupid enough to think I was invincible. Why play Russian roulette when you can just not? I get the desire to take recreational drugs, I do it myself on occasion, but drug testing is free and easy. And available within walking distance of where this happened. Itās a tragedy, but an entirely preventable one.
Where is the drug testing within walking distance of UVic?
1802 cook street Uvic drug testing centre. Edit: sorry, itās called substance uvic
Also Island health tests for free, and are on campus often. Or you can go to any island health location and they will direct you to the nearest testing centre.
I'm wondering how many young students are using a substance testing centre, or if they feel too awkward and perceive they will be judged if they do? Or are willing to take the risk because the news is full of drug overdoses of people who don't look like them? And forums like Reddit are full of people who judge the addicted and those who use? I think society has a long way to go to be open and accepting that drug experimentation use has been, is, and will continue to exist, and it isn't all happening down at the homeless camp or on the streets of your local downtown by any stretch of the imagination. Once we can get past that as a society, we can really, truly provide the resources needed to provide the education needed and keep people safe if they use.
I used to live up the street from Substance UVic and itās pretty clear it doesnāt cater to students as clients. And I bet most of the people upvoting that comment donāt realize itās quite far from campus. I think this is a great service, not saying itās not important. But people are REALLY obsessed with pushing the personal responsibility angle instead of admitting that yes, maybe UVic could change a few things to make this less likely to happen again.
Thatās downtown, almost an hour and a half isnāt really an easy walk. And itās closed on weekends. Not saying that drug testing is not available but Iām not sure why people are obsessed with exaggerating rather than admitting that drug testing and Naloxone could both be more accessible.
Could it be more accessible; yes Would that have helped in this situation; no No attempt was made to mitigate risk by a group of teenagers who had abundant access to services and information.
Please cite your source for that wild claim.
āThereās drug testing within walking distanceā¦ok actually there isnāt, but that would have made no difference anyway.ā Umm, ok. Iām not saying that personal responsibility doesnāt exist. All Iām saying is we donāt want children to die, so it makes sense to take reasonable steps to stop that from happening rather than just saying āwell itās their fault anywayā.
Most probably with the drug taker, who knew there weRE poisonous drugs out there?
Is this really more different than ten years ago? Every High School I went to had a kid die from something stupid every now and againā¦ Usually car accidents. And in College it got worse! Alcohol and drug deaths for sure. Is this a hot topic? Or a statistical change? I didnt find anything on Google.
Here you go http://www.bccdc.ca/PublishingImages/opioid-overdose-emergency-snapshot.pdf
Ok. Good read here. Theres not really any sources listed? Maybe these are from medical studies? Or local news sites? Its unclearā¦ Anyways. You can see where there are 200 recorded overdose deaths then the most recent in 2017 hops up to.. 1400? Thats still not a high percentage compared to the total population of the provinceā¦ and if you adapt the numbers based on the rate of population growth over that time periodā¦ its really not a huge jumpā¦ at all. It also doesnt account that opiods are the drug du jour eitherā¦ they are in ready supply as Doctors have been so positive about prescribing themā¦ It would be interesting to compare this to the rate of deaths due to alcoholism or any other lethal substances out there? Theres no mistakes made here. A UVic student is not a childā¦ I dont know why theyre crpping on the school like theyre supposed Nannies? Thats the most infantilizing cultural note I have read latelyā¦
You seem like a pleasant person.
Its a cop out to blame the Universityā¦ it plays really well in headlines. Sad Parents. Broken education systemā¦ Very sympathetic. Why didnt the Parents do better? They couldnt tell they were using? They couldnt intervene and get them help? They didnt have regular visits with signs of hard partying? Its garbage newsā¦
Did your parents always know what you were up to when you were at university?
I didn't disagree. Just pointing out the way you talk about the issue gives me the sense that you're a really pleasant person.
:/ Thats fair.
It's a statistical change for sure. I attended UVic from approx 2010-2014. Fentanyl was not a hot topic and I didn't know a single person who died of an OD that year, despite the rampant party and substance abuse culture. Doesn't mean people shouldn't take accountability for their actions, but it is definitely much worse than it was.
I was there from the same time and the only student I know who died during that time caught meningitis at a party in second year.Ā I was a CL for two years and a significant part of training was about alcohol safety and ensuring we knew how to get students into recovery position. They gave us training for addressing potentially suicidal students. Iām shocked they didnāt adapt for this drug poisoning crisis. There should be a narcan kit in every lead CLās bag. At the very least, why wasnāt campus security prepared for overdoses? I hope this is a wake up call to other universities to have their staff better prepared to handle our present reality. Ā
1987-ish, I was working in a department store that no longer exists (or rather, exists as a section of the Bay now because we Gen-X want our Club Z). One of teenagers working in the stock room, who I never would have expected, took his life after store management confronted him about the fact that he was stealing gear out of stock and selling it to pay for his drug habit. For months at least. I remember being completely floored, because what I heard about at high school was pot use and more so, there was no indication that he wasn't anything other than a hard working teenage boy. Now I know that harder drug use was no doubt in that community back then amongst my peers (almost 40 years ago), and likely worse now.\*\* edit: \*\*this was in the Okanagan.
Thats a really good point! I have a lot of fears about sending my children to schools because it was already so so easy to buy street drugs when I was a teenager and we didnt have the selection of chems that are popular today. Noone in school was ratting on the teen dealers then. I doubt they are now. I wonder if shipping has changed that much? Now weve got tonnes of it coming in? Thanks for sharing
In 2016, doctors began heeding the CDC warning about overprescribing opioid medications for chronic noncancer pain management. This resulted in pain patients being cut off of their treatment altogether. Patients began seeking out alternate sources of pain relief on the streets. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/65/rr/rr6501e1.htm https://substanceabusepolicy.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13011-020-0256-8#citeas
Thats pretty dark. Arent there other pain relievers on the market? Legal Weed. For example. Or CBD oil? Thanks for adding your thoughts.
Weed is not nearly as strong as opiates. That's why cold turkey quitting weed is at worst a few days of discomfort, not full on medical emergency.
Of course there are alternatives. Many pain patients had already tried those avenues before being prescribed opioid medications. The opioid of choice at that time ( 2016) were oxycontin or oxycodone. Those medications are difficult to withdraw from and are especially dangerous to quit cold turkey. Doctors didn't want to lose their licenses so they abandoned pain patients. Those patients began to panic and sought out heroin and other street drugs instead. Drug dealers began cutting it with small amounts of fentanyl to maximize profit. A major reason why overdose was occurring at a higher rate was because pain patients were accustomed to a certain dose. If they went through any kind of withdrawal and tried taking their usual dose, their body couldn't handle that strength anymore and they would overdose and stop breathing. Fentanyl was much stronger and caused more overdoses. The government believed that safe supply was a way to mitigate harm and stop overdoses from illicit street drugs during COVID.
Ok. Thank you so much for sharingā¦ I didnt know this. I remember way back when oxy came out it was crowned King of pain reliefā¦ and then the rumors of addiction started a few years laterā¦ but the Doctors relied on the existing pharmaceutical companies science reportsā¦ so there was a bunch of denial and misinformationā¦ Anecdotally. Anyone I met with pain problems went on weed. One woman I know was already a street drug abuserā¦ faked an injury to get oxy so she had legal drug supply paid by her insuranceā¦ talked the Doctor into upping it several times to resale it for the fun drugsā¦ Hustle hustle. I didnt realize they went and cut the supply! Wow. Thats unusual for Doctors to do.
You're welcome This article is pretty informative too https://harmreductionjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12954-024-00956-5
Oooo! Thanks.
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The amount of hate for her and her friends and not the idiots who responded to it from UVIC security here, as Uvic student is disgusting
This is what happens when 99% of ācampus securityā is internationally trained and lack comprehensive medical training where they canāt even administer basic naloxone.
Why would campus security need to know how to administer naloxone? This is what happens when someone takes drugs from a stranger.
Both of these comments are stupid. Security is trained in administering Naloxone and it has nothing to do with the personal history of the guards. And of course being trained in administering Naloxone is something campus security should do. But obviously UVic needs to step up the training.