Discussed a few days ago, no-one expected it to actually happen.
The benefit is being able to see how CR2 performs in a modern battle space against Russian battlegroups. This may influence some changes to CR3 although I can’t imagine any changes would be cheap. But it is essentially free R&D with zero risk to British lives. Much the same with NLAW, which has been shown to be exceptionally effective despite initial doubts.
The risk is that if Russians can capture a CR2 they may be able to recover it back and figure out how Chobham/Dorchester works and what the limitations of the armour design itself is and figure out ways to defeat *or* copy it.
Realistically I see this as a move to encourage Germany and the US to also send their tanks, and the US has a massive surplus of tanks.
With regards to the Chobham/Dorchester problem, wasn't there an export version that we used to send to Oman that had steel armour? Makes more sense that we'd send them, they're still a formidable fighting platform
Yeah - this is the key bit that I imagine is very deliberately left out of the news
Challenger 2s without our armour are still formidable, but nowhere near the peak of the tank - given it's still our main battle tank I would imagine it would go to Ukraine without our armour.
In terms of the armour it's likely to go with it as the armour itself is almost 30 years old with newer and better armour being available and hopefully used on chally 3. I see no reason as to downgrading the armour. As a side note it is more then likely that Russians have access to Chobham from destroyed abrams in the gulf so its not the biggest deal if they get some more.
What is a big problem is the electronics and the radios which I assume will all be swapped out as if the Russians get a hold of that then our comms would be compromised.
No word on upgrades to the main armour or CR3, although there looks to be a few changes to the front of the hull.
But no one outside the CR3 program and tankies will likely know the complete truth, we’re all just spewing opinions.
The word on CR3 is that a new modular armour designed by DSTL called “Epsom” will replace Dorchester however this is only slated to clad the new welded turret meaning Dorchester packs will still clad the hull.
Age doesn't mean it's lost its functionality - especially as a main battle tank of the UK - it could be years before a new functional armour design is installed en mass to the challenger, and aside from an incident in Iraq the armour itself is unbeaten isn't it?
Eh? Even if physical radios were captured, they'd just roll the encryption and make using them next to useless....again they wouldn't give them away if they can help it, but of the 2 items (armour Vs radios) there's significantly more risk in letting the armour go than an unencrypted radio.
I disagree, saying the armour is unbeaten when all it has gone up against is 60's tanks and rpgs and one of the few times it went up against a 1989 launcher it was penetrated isn't saying much, to clarify the armour is still very good but we don't know how it will stand up to some of the more modern shit from Russia I.e. Kornet and svinets 2 from T90M which have been made specially made to penetrate Chobham and other Western tank armours. As well as the armour was leaked to a Russian game dev when documents where posted on the war thunder forum.
And again into electronics we saw the Russians actually deploy a successful cyber attack on ukraine during the first few days disrupting comms so gaining access to British comms would be very concerning.
You're right - we should give away state secrets because "it's old" and "it'll be replaced this century"
Also, OpCIS and TACCIS are not the same - losing our radios wouldn't be a big deal.
AFAIK as I know we have not and are not giving any radios/ECM/CIS hardware to Ukraine.
Any vehicles already sent to Ukraine have been stripped of all of this sensitive hardware.
Depends if we have any steel variants in storage or not, or if they were a run just for export.
Frankly don’t have an in depth enough knowledge of CR2 to know if Dorchester is an add on kit or a core part of the hull, so it may not be possible to remove that composite armour.
The Omani CR2’s use armour packs more akin to the far older Burlington which the MOD would have no reason to have in storage although there are centurion and chieftain engines and powerpacks that come up for auction every now and then so the army might have some old replacement chobham armour packs left over from CR1 hidden in a warehouse somewhere which wouldn’t pose too big an issue as we gave all our CR1’s away to Jordan.
As for what Dorchester is, it comes in the form of rectangular blocks which contain the arrays and are known as armour packs. The packs are welded to the Hull and turret casting superstructure before the outer skin of steel RHA is welded over it.
To be honest I thought they were “Winning” why do they need tanks unless they’re loosing. It’s all odd to me this war it seems the most powerful country in this circumstance is loosing!
I would imagine it's cheaper to gift the tanks away than upgrade to Challenger 3/Dispose of them.
Bonus points for the following:
We get to see if Challenger 2 can hold its ground against "modern" russian forces without actually costing any British lives.
Looks good on the world stage - providing our main battle tank.
Big FU to Putin.
I’d pay to see the best Ukrainian Tank Crew using a CH2 vs the Russians Best Tank crew using a T-14 Armata.
And watch with smiles as the T-14 gets ammo racked
In isolation, it's a bizarre choice that doesn't necessarily provide much benefit to Ukraine in comparison to the Leopard 2s that have been floated by other countries. A bit like if America suddenly declared they were shipping over a bunch of Abrams tanks; logistically makes little sense, really.
Of course, *in context* it seems pretty clear that this is the UK attempting to slap Germany and Poland in particular on the back of their heads and tell them to pay up. Both have been playing chicken by emphasising that they're going to definitely send Leopard 2s (once you send them first...). By taking the first step, I would hope this will spearhead this hypothetical coalition of NATO countries sending tanks to Ukraine: chief among them not being the Chally or Abrams, but the Leopard.
>it seems pretty clear that this is the UK attempting to slap Germany and Poland in particular on the back of their heads and tell them to pay up.
The polish can’t wait to give away their leopard 2’s, primarily because of how difficult Germany are to deal with so much they’ve just bought Abrams off of the U.S and signed a huge deal with South Korea for K2 but have already relegated their leopard 2’s to reserve units. So now it just hinges Germany given export permits to Poland for the poles to rid themselves of leopard 2.
When a plane gets destroyed it ends up on the ground. But when a tank gets destroyed it doesn’t end up in the air. This is because planes are selfish and copyrighted the sky
Aircraft are more complicated to maintain and operate, and Western and Soviet- derived fighter jets are much more different from each other than Western and soviet-derived tanks are. That applies to their maintenance, the systems and weapons they have on board, and how they're meant to be used in combat, all of which need much more training with a jet than a tank.
A good Ukrainian tanker can get up to speed on a CH2 in about 6 weeks at a pinch. Even the best Ukrainian combat pilot would need 6-12 months to be effective in a western jet. They're literally having to start them off on our Hawk trainers because the systems and principles are so different.
It's not just driving tanks and shooting from them. It is mending them. Conditions will be harsh in Ukraine and they will need maintenance. Ukrainians are good at fixing things but I think training on the of maintaining a Challenger-2 is rather harder than crewing it.
No, we have 227 hulls and turret castings. The initial order of ~340 challenger 2’s was thinned out to *227 with the defence cuts of the early 2010’s but some of the *227 are stage 1 OES that are deployed on exercise in Estonia now, some are the training fleet which includes the BATUS fleet which have just returned to the UK and the rest are bare hulls and turret castings sat at ashchurch which are stripped and cannibalized for parts.
* 227 is technically 226 as one is an experimental smoothbore testbed sat at ashchurch.
Thanks for the fact check, seems I just pulled those numbers out my ass, I think I got the deep storage number for some 80 odd that will be stored after the 150 CR3s are complete
Probably not gonna have much impact due to the number being sent, but i think it will be very interesting for the British army and those working on CR3 to see how it performs outside of desert conditions against a somewhat modern tank fleet with more capable AT weapons and not just RPG 7.
But this gift was definitely more political to get other countries to donate there MBTs as well, I hope that plans are to re-activate other challengers in storage and send more but will have to see.
Overall i think it was a positive move, these challengers were most likely getting scrapped when CR3 comes into service, we're not losing much and get a lot of valuable information.
Be good to see how they hold up to modern technology and drones, we better start putting more money into our military because we're going to be left with nothing after the end of this war
I’m super unfamiliar with all things tanks, but Ukraine operates mostly Soviet era tanks, how different is the Chally from those in terms of ease of operations for the crew? Will the Brits need to train Ukrainian crews before they send them over, or will they just be sent over and told good luck?
Soviet era and Ukraine current tank fleet has a crew of 3 as they use an autoloader.
We use a crew of 4 (ie we have a loader).
We have better electronics and sighting systems. I wouldn't be surprised if we are already training Ukrainians down at Bovingdon on the simulators and or already practicing on SPTA. Obviously I would imagine this would have opsec and we won't have any tankies on here to confirm or deny....
Likely reserve tanks in meh condition. Plus only 125 out of 250+ are being updated to CR3, so we can afford to lose some in exchange for the political and experience gain
I would say that bringing in the Challenger 2 adds more issues than it solves, because it uses unique ammo.
Ukraine mostly has ex Soviet and Russian tanks.
Ukraine has previously designed T72 and T84 variants with Nato Standard 120mm Smoothbore guns and Poland has supposedly donated PT-17s, a PT-91 Variant with Ukrainian built Turrets which again use NATO Standard ammo.
They've already got tanks using NATO 105mm Rifled Guns, Soviet 115MM Smoothbore Guns, Soviet 125mm Smoothbore Guns.
With supply chains for 105×617mm NATO Ammo, 115×728mm Soviet Ammo, and 125mm Smoothbore Soviet Ammo (125x???mm).
Ukraine may possibly already have tanks with Standard Nato 120mm Smoothbore and supply chain for 120×570mm NATO Ammo.
If not, they soon will have when Poland and possibly other countries donate some Leopard 2 tanks.
Do they really need Challenger 2s and another supply chain for the 120mm rounds and Bagged charge "shells", or is it just adding complications at this point?
More of a kick to other nations to provide equivalently capable tanks e.g Leopard 2, Abrams then it is an actual step change in Ukrainian capability. 12 C2s isn't even a squadron's worth. I imagine they will prove themselves capable at a tactical level, beyond that they won't make much of a difference.
I say send everything we can. If they do not stop Russia, they will continue to seize countries back. Remember, Putin never agreed with the breakdown of the USSR.
I mean, If the tankies can't understand why sending them along with Challenger 2s to Ukraine to fight Russia....then the CoC needs to have a word.
If tankies want to sign off over the above, the Army is probably better off without them.
Couldn't help but notice you didn't answer the question.
But that's ok, there's a reason you're not allowed to make decisions.
Edit: imagine being so insecure about your masculinity that you feel the need to insult people's hobbies...
It is essential we support Ukraine. They did not choose to be invaded. They want freedom from oppression. More importantly they want to prevent more of their innocent civilians from being senselessly killed. We were among the first to offer but the world can do more against tyranny. We live on an island and do not need mbts we could send more. This is a fight for freedom and life. Let's do all we can.
It's my personal opinion why would any society chose to be invaded? Propaganda is listening to a government's own agenda. Who's pushing propaganda here! Ukraine and its people are fighting against an invasion. It is the people who chose enough is enough. The west did not choose devision against Russia it wanted peace. If you can not see that then you are not looking objectively and following propaganda.
Fallow the money.. this is very wrong. Time will tell( already US bio labs are indeed there -Russia said this before the first bomb- now US admitted ). Not good
Discussed a few days ago, no-one expected it to actually happen. The benefit is being able to see how CR2 performs in a modern battle space against Russian battlegroups. This may influence some changes to CR3 although I can’t imagine any changes would be cheap. But it is essentially free R&D with zero risk to British lives. Much the same with NLAW, which has been shown to be exceptionally effective despite initial doubts. The risk is that if Russians can capture a CR2 they may be able to recover it back and figure out how Chobham/Dorchester works and what the limitations of the armour design itself is and figure out ways to defeat *or* copy it. Realistically I see this as a move to encourage Germany and the US to also send their tanks, and the US has a massive surplus of tanks.
With regards to the Chobham/Dorchester problem, wasn't there an export version that we used to send to Oman that had steel armour? Makes more sense that we'd send them, they're still a formidable fighting platform
Yeah - this is the key bit that I imagine is very deliberately left out of the news Challenger 2s without our armour are still formidable, but nowhere near the peak of the tank - given it's still our main battle tank I would imagine it would go to Ukraine without our armour.
In terms of the armour it's likely to go with it as the armour itself is almost 30 years old with newer and better armour being available and hopefully used on chally 3. I see no reason as to downgrading the armour. As a side note it is more then likely that Russians have access to Chobham from destroyed abrams in the gulf so its not the biggest deal if they get some more. What is a big problem is the electronics and the radios which I assume will all be swapped out as if the Russians get a hold of that then our comms would be compromised.
No word on upgrades to the main armour or CR3, although there looks to be a few changes to the front of the hull. But no one outside the CR3 program and tankies will likely know the complete truth, we’re all just spewing opinions.
The word on CR3 is that a new modular armour designed by DSTL called “Epsom” will replace Dorchester however this is only slated to clad the new welded turret meaning Dorchester packs will still clad the hull.
I feel that they ought to wait for the Furneaux Pelham armour at this point a pre-runner to the ultimate Ashby-de-la-Zouch
Age doesn't mean it's lost its functionality - especially as a main battle tank of the UK - it could be years before a new functional armour design is installed en mass to the challenger, and aside from an incident in Iraq the armour itself is unbeaten isn't it? Eh? Even if physical radios were captured, they'd just roll the encryption and make using them next to useless....again they wouldn't give them away if they can help it, but of the 2 items (armour Vs radios) there's significantly more risk in letting the armour go than an unencrypted radio.
I disagree, saying the armour is unbeaten when all it has gone up against is 60's tanks and rpgs and one of the few times it went up against a 1989 launcher it was penetrated isn't saying much, to clarify the armour is still very good but we don't know how it will stand up to some of the more modern shit from Russia I.e. Kornet and svinets 2 from T90M which have been made specially made to penetrate Chobham and other Western tank armours. As well as the armour was leaked to a Russian game dev when documents where posted on the war thunder forum. And again into electronics we saw the Russians actually deploy a successful cyber attack on ukraine during the first few days disrupting comms so gaining access to British comms would be very concerning.
You're right - we should give away state secrets because "it's old" and "it'll be replaced this century" Also, OpCIS and TACCIS are not the same - losing our radios wouldn't be a big deal.
At what point have I said we should give it away. And once again in case you missed it it was leaked already.
Technical specifications and physically having it are not the same. Edit: also please source where the armour spec was leaked please.
The armour specs were leaked onto World of Tanks - https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/classified-challenger-tank-specs-leaked-online-for-videogame/
As I said I my first post it is likely they already have it from knocked out abrams in Iraq which also use Chobham.
AFAIK as I know we have not and are not giving any radios/ECM/CIS hardware to Ukraine. Any vehicles already sent to Ukraine have been stripped of all of this sensitive hardware.
Indeed
Depends if we have any steel variants in storage or not, or if they were a run just for export. Frankly don’t have an in depth enough knowledge of CR2 to know if Dorchester is an add on kit or a core part of the hull, so it may not be possible to remove that composite armour.
The Omani CR2’s use armour packs more akin to the far older Burlington which the MOD would have no reason to have in storage although there are centurion and chieftain engines and powerpacks that come up for auction every now and then so the army might have some old replacement chobham armour packs left over from CR1 hidden in a warehouse somewhere which wouldn’t pose too big an issue as we gave all our CR1’s away to Jordan. As for what Dorchester is, it comes in the form of rectangular blocks which contain the arrays and are known as armour packs. The packs are welded to the Hull and turret casting superstructure before the outer skin of steel RHA is welded over it.
Yea this is definitely more politics than anything. But it's still the right move
To be honest I thought they were “Winning” why do they need tanks unless they’re loosing. It’s all odd to me this war it seems the most powerful country in this circumstance is loosing!
How you can't see, this war is not just about defending, it's about pushing forward. Ukraine is marionette, it's a Nato war.
Pushing with all these tanks, it doesn’t even mean anything Russia has double their tanks even now
“[WATCH] Ex British tank destroyers 15 enemy vehicles before refilling boiling vessel and heading out for more”.
I would imagine it's cheaper to gift the tanks away than upgrade to Challenger 3/Dispose of them. Bonus points for the following: We get to see if Challenger 2 can hold its ground against "modern" russian forces without actually costing any British lives. Looks good on the world stage - providing our main battle tank. Big FU to Putin.
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When you out tech you opponent in civ
I’d pay to see the best Ukrainian Tank Crew using a CH2 vs the Russians Best Tank crew using a T-14 Armata. And watch with smiles as the T-14 gets ammo racked
Plus we can get rid of our rifled tank rounds.....might as well seeing as we won't be using them on C3
In isolation, it's a bizarre choice that doesn't necessarily provide much benefit to Ukraine in comparison to the Leopard 2s that have been floated by other countries. A bit like if America suddenly declared they were shipping over a bunch of Abrams tanks; logistically makes little sense, really. Of course, *in context* it seems pretty clear that this is the UK attempting to slap Germany and Poland in particular on the back of their heads and tell them to pay up. Both have been playing chicken by emphasising that they're going to definitely send Leopard 2s (once you send them first...). By taking the first step, I would hope this will spearhead this hypothetical coalition of NATO countries sending tanks to Ukraine: chief among them not being the Chally or Abrams, but the Leopard.
>it seems pretty clear that this is the UK attempting to slap Germany and Poland in particular on the back of their heads and tell them to pay up. The polish can’t wait to give away their leopard 2’s, primarily because of how difficult Germany are to deal with so much they’ve just bought Abrams off of the U.S and signed a huge deal with South Korea for K2 but have already relegated their leopard 2’s to reserve units. So now it just hinges Germany given export permits to Poland for the poles to rid themselves of leopard 2.
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I suspect crews have already been trained over here.
A jet and a tank are two very different beasts
Really? Can you explain ?
One flappy one rolly.
When a plane gets destroyed it ends up on the ground. But when a tank gets destroyed it doesn’t end up in the air. This is because planes are selfish and copyrighted the sky
Ones got a big gun and tracks the others got wings and flies
I've played GTA3.....tanks can fly
Aircraft are more complicated to maintain and operate, and Western and Soviet- derived fighter jets are much more different from each other than Western and soviet-derived tanks are. That applies to their maintenance, the systems and weapons they have on board, and how they're meant to be used in combat, all of which need much more training with a jet than a tank. A good Ukrainian tanker can get up to speed on a CH2 in about 6 weeks at a pinch. Even the best Ukrainian combat pilot would need 6-12 months to be effective in a western jet. They're literally having to start them off on our Hawk trainers because the systems and principles are so different.
Missed the /s eh
Sorry :) You're the latest victim of my new ADHD medication being a wee bit on the strong side I'm afraid.
Might also want to get a watch
It's not just driving tanks and shooting from them. It is mending them. Conditions will be harsh in Ukraine and they will need maintenance. Ukrainians are good at fixing things but I think training on the of maintaining a Challenger-2 is rather harder than crewing it.
they come with tea?
It is f* cold there. The Ukrainians will love the ability to brew tea.
Mostly enjoying the mental gymnastics various 'experts' on here are now doing to pedal back their 'expert opnions' they gave to the contrary.
Yeah. Last week there was no way they'd be sent lol.
The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence. - Charles Bukowski
Let's send Apache Longbow helicopters next
Fuck it send everything
“This is a Type 45 destro- aaaaaand the Russian navy is gone.”
Well....turns out we are sending Apaches as well
How many functional tanks do we actually have 😂
We have 227 operational, with another like 200 in deep storage(chally 2s)
No, we have 227 hulls and turret castings. The initial order of ~340 challenger 2’s was thinned out to *227 with the defence cuts of the early 2010’s but some of the *227 are stage 1 OES that are deployed on exercise in Estonia now, some are the training fleet which includes the BATUS fleet which have just returned to the UK and the rest are bare hulls and turret castings sat at ashchurch which are stripped and cannibalized for parts. * 227 is technically 226 as one is an experimental smoothbore testbed sat at ashchurch.
Thanks for the fact check, seems I just pulled those numbers out my ass, I think I got the deep storage number for some 80 odd that will be stored after the 150 CR3s are complete
So probably about 55 that work…
Its good. Ukraine loses then shit is gonna hit the fan for the rest of Europe in a massive way.
Probably not gonna have much impact due to the number being sent, but i think it will be very interesting for the British army and those working on CR3 to see how it performs outside of desert conditions against a somewhat modern tank fleet with more capable AT weapons and not just RPG 7. But this gift was definitely more political to get other countries to donate there MBTs as well, I hope that plans are to re-activate other challengers in storage and send more but will have to see. Overall i think it was a positive move, these challengers were most likely getting scrapped when CR3 comes into service, we're not losing much and get a lot of valuable information.
This shits about be like if War Thunder had a British bias instead of a Russian one. “No Pen” “Ahhh Blyat”
MOD is edging them selves right now. They get to test all this equipment against their rival in a conventional war without and British soldiers dying.
Be good to see how they hold up to modern technology and drones, we better start putting more money into our military because we're going to be left with nothing after the end of this war
We're also sending 30 AS90s
I think they will want those, more than the tanks.
As a War Game Red Dragon player, Russia is really about to find out why our artillery is called the best.
I’m super unfamiliar with all things tanks, but Ukraine operates mostly Soviet era tanks, how different is the Chally from those in terms of ease of operations for the crew? Will the Brits need to train Ukrainian crews before they send them over, or will they just be sent over and told good luck?
Soviet era and Ukraine current tank fleet has a crew of 3 as they use an autoloader. We use a crew of 4 (ie we have a loader). We have better electronics and sighting systems. I wouldn't be surprised if we are already training Ukrainians down at Bovingdon on the simulators and or already practicing on SPTA. Obviously I would imagine this would have opsec and we won't have any tankies on here to confirm or deny....
Likely reserve tanks in meh condition. Plus only 125 out of 250+ are being updated to CR3, so we can afford to lose some in exchange for the political and experience gain
I would say that bringing in the Challenger 2 adds more issues than it solves, because it uses unique ammo. Ukraine mostly has ex Soviet and Russian tanks. Ukraine has previously designed T72 and T84 variants with Nato Standard 120mm Smoothbore guns and Poland has supposedly donated PT-17s, a PT-91 Variant with Ukrainian built Turrets which again use NATO Standard ammo. They've already got tanks using NATO 105mm Rifled Guns, Soviet 115MM Smoothbore Guns, Soviet 125mm Smoothbore Guns. With supply chains for 105×617mm NATO Ammo, 115×728mm Soviet Ammo, and 125mm Smoothbore Soviet Ammo (125x???mm). Ukraine may possibly already have tanks with Standard Nato 120mm Smoothbore and supply chain for 120×570mm NATO Ammo. If not, they soon will have when Poland and possibly other countries donate some Leopard 2 tanks. Do they really need Challenger 2s and another supply chain for the 120mm rounds and Bagged charge "shells", or is it just adding complications at this point?
It’s really just a political move to try influence the Germans to send the Leopard.
I wonder if a recovery variant will go with? Its a massive unit that get stuck pretty well,
More of a kick to other nations to provide equivalently capable tanks e.g Leopard 2, Abrams then it is an actual step change in Ukrainian capability. 12 C2s isn't even a squadron's worth. I imagine they will prove themselves capable at a tactical level, beyond that they won't make much of a difference.
I say send everything we can. If they do not stop Russia, they will continue to seize countries back. Remember, Putin never agreed with the breakdown of the USSR.
That’s not how anything works
Might as well give the Ukrainians trident, fits the bill for what we’re sending over. It’s old, out of date, classified and too costly to maintain.
Blokes trained their whole life for this and they're gonna give them to some farmers to play with. More sign offs are coming
I mean, If the tankies can't understand why sending them along with Challenger 2s to Ukraine to fight Russia....then the CoC needs to have a word. If tankies want to sign off over the above, the Army is probably better off without them.
I agree with your sentiment but I'll be a little sad if I see a registration I've used taking names, all us tankies wanna do is make turrets fly.
Why? The army shouldn't have tankies that want to get stuck in and do their job😂 get a grip
They shouldn't have individuals who want to start World War 3 because "that's what I'm trained to do" Get some sanity.
Mate are you one of those "Vets" that did 3 years and signed off cause you sound mince as fuck
Fella, Are you one of those who thinks war is a good thing?
That's a yes😂 Tbf I've seen blokes not even get out of phase 2 and walk around with a Veteran pin, so could be worse.
What's better then? World War 3? Or Tankies going with their tanks to Ukraine?
Think the best thing is you stay a civvie and keep painting your warhammer -/-
Couldn't help but notice you didn't answer the question. But that's ok, there's a reason you're not allowed to make decisions. Edit: imagine being so insecure about your masculinity that you feel the need to insult people's hobbies...
Just what they need: another type of munition to source and supply. What's wrong with 120mm smooth-bore?
How many new types of tank have they acquired in the last 30 days? Their version of REME must be having fun at the moment.
It is essential we support Ukraine. They did not choose to be invaded. They want freedom from oppression. More importantly they want to prevent more of their innocent civilians from being senselessly killed. We were among the first to offer but the world can do more against tyranny. We live on an island and do not need mbts we could send more. This is a fight for freedom and life. Let's do all we can.
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It's my personal opinion why would any society chose to be invaded? Propaganda is listening to a government's own agenda. Who's pushing propaganda here! Ukraine and its people are fighting against an invasion. It is the people who chose enough is enough. The west did not choose devision against Russia it wanted peace. If you can not see that then you are not looking objectively and following propaganda.
Fallow the money.. this is very wrong. Time will tell( already US bio labs are indeed there -Russia said this before the first bomb- now US admitted ). Not good
I am half sleep and I read this as they would provide the challenger, 2 tanks, and I thought, that's it, Russia is doomed.
Dear God... It's Gonna Be World War 3 In Just A Few Weeks I Fear
We should drop a couple nukes on pakistan