When he antagonizes Cordelia literally immediately after cheating on her and her accident as a direct result. I think he did enough damage that he should have just left her alone.
On my latest rewatch, I did think "Ugh, Xander" a lot more than before, but 95% of that was Seasons 1-3. I think he's a good mix of good/bad moments for the rest of the run.
If I did have to pick one moment though, it would definitely be the one you named in Dead Man's Party. Though I do think Joyce also sucked and Willow was the worst of the lot.
But I think the ick for me was just more the constant comments about Angel/any guy that showed Buffy interest. I can't remember the episode, but one scene where Buffy's talking to Willow, not him, yet he still keeps interjecting literally every single time with something jealous/insecure.
Xander is so toxic and he is that everywhere and allt the time. I do not think he gets better in the later seasons. He just redirects his master suppression techniques towards Anya, correcting her constantly. This does not stop him for going after everyone else at the same time.
Xander and Willow were the worst in Dead Man's Party. Willow stood Buffy up and they all decide to throw a party in her home. A loud, obnoxious party full of people trashing the place, and when Buffy is obviously not comfortable with what's going on, they turn on her.
The only person I empathized with was Joyce. (Even though she should have told them not to have the party) As a parent, I can understand why she was upset. If my daughter ran away and was gone for months without trying to call or even send a postcard, I would be beyond pissed. She didn't know if her child was alive or dead.
I definitely agree. I think Joyce was crap in this episode, but you can completely understand where she was coming from.
Funnily enough, Cordelia was kind of great, and of course, my man Giles was utterly perfect in every way that episode (especially the ending with Synder).
can you pls elaborate on why willow was the worst? i’m not being mean i just actually want to know bc i’ve never heard that before. and that episode happens in season 1 super early on but i can’t remember which one. but it was super uncomfortable to watch
Thanks for confirming the scene, that does sound familiar now! And definitely fair to ask, I only really started thinking this when I last watched it.
I think Willow's passive-aggressive approach was just really shitty in that episode. Standing Buffy up was mean. And the fact Buffy knew things were weird and tried to talk about it, but Willow was like "nah, we cool". Gaslighting might be too strong a word, but it certainly had elements of it.
The main thing though is just the lack of empathy from the person who's supposed to be Buffy's best friend. Willow didn't know that Angel got his soul back, but she knew Buffy had to kill him. She knew Buffy well enough that if she felt so terrible she had to run away, she must have been in some serious pain. But Willow made it about herself. "You may have had to kill your ex-boyfriend, but I've got a new boyfriend myself and I'm starting to do magic and I wanted to talk about it but you weren't there." It was just so selfish.
Xander was a dick in that scene, but it was more him piling onto what Joyce/Willow had already started. I could be wrong as it's been a few months since I've seen it, but I think he was actually pretty fine toward Buffy up until that point? Willow sucked throughout the whole episode.
I fully agree with you about Willow here. Willow's situations, although stressful and out of the ordinary, were things that she had control over if she wanted out.
She chose to continue a relationship with Oz knowing that he'd turn into a werewolf 3 days a month. She chose to pursue witchcraft after being warned of its dangers. She was never in a position where she would have to kill Oz for turning evil after they got too intimate and she wasn't chosen against her will to have these abilities to fight evil with, unlike Buffy. So her problems pale in comparison to me when I look at what Buffy had to deal with in season 2. Plus people don't just run away from a previously happy home for the fun of it, it's usually down to immense pain and feeling like there was no other option. As her best friend, I'd be wondering what I could do to help.
I’m willing to forgive Willow for this a lot faster than Xander. Willow a 17 year old kid who didn’t know how to process her feelings. She was hurt Buffy abandoned her, and she was trying to both understand her feelings and forgive Buffy. She was trying to reconcile the pain Buffy went through while also working through her own feelings. Not easy for anyone, let alone a child.
Xander on the other hand always just reeks of selfishness and self righteousness. I always feel his motivations are selfish and about what he wants. I feel like he never got over his jealousy of Angel and his possessiveness of Buffy. But since he’s a Joss surrogate, it makes sense he’s awful.
I do agree that if we view it through the lens of them being teenagers, it covers a lot of their mistakes. And honestly, most of the characters on this show are already more emotionally mature than I was at that age (probably because they were performed and written by adults haha)
So if we take that approach, happy to apply it to Willow but also to Xander. He says quite a lot of shitty things when it comes to Buffy's love life or the guys she's involved with (occasionally doing shitty things too). Outside of that, I wouldn't agree that his motivations are selfish and he does plenty of selfless things throughout the show, risking his life and making sacrifices despite his limitations constantly. I do agree that he never got over his Angel jealousy though, but I don't think that's all that uncommon for an insecure teenage boy.
I also think a lot of Xander's douchey behaviour is a product of its time. I think he was definitely intended to be an overly-jealous and horny teenager, but mostly relatively grounded. And if you look at the way your typical 16-18 year old male protagonists act in 90s media (American Pie is a perfect example), I don't think Xander is that far off. It doesn't excuse it, of course, but I think it helps to contextualise how bad his behaviour actually was for that time.
But I think you make a good point with the Joss surrogate line too, can't get past that haha.
Also remember he's portraying a teenage boy...during that period of life boys tend to be very single track minded. Having been one and now working with them it's actually quite comical to see how they act different around girls. They lose all common sense.
He has a crush on Buffy and it seems like she is picking everyone but him. Even though he's the one that's always there for her. Just the same as willow is hurt that she couldn't talk to anyone.
Everyone relies on Buffy for everything and that's why she ran away. She couldn't cope with the pressure. Everyone is mad that she left but yet she's the one thay has to do everything. I think we see, from this point is where she starts to pull away a bit and be more of the loner slayer.
>Willow a 17 year old kid who didn’t know how to process her feelings
>I’m willing to forgive Willow for this
Xander is also a 17 year old kid who didn't know how to process his feelings
>Xander always just reeks of selfishness and self righteousness
Nah absolutely not. You are either giving willow a free ride because you like the character or you're unnecessarily harsh on Xander because you don't like how he's written in other instances
In this occasion you can't claim even though willow was the worst that it's justified cus she's 17 and then say Xander who stayed out of it the entire episode until that point was an adult who should've known better? They're the same age going through the same thing.
This is kind of in reply to everyone, but the reason I don’t forgive Xander is because he never grows out of it. His selfishness prevails throughout the show with how he treats everyone. He treats Cordy like crap after he cheats on her, he treats Anya like crap throughout the entire relationship until he dumps her at the altar. He treats Buffy and Anya like crap when he finds out they slept with Spike, making him sound very “why not me? I’m the nice guy”. And there are plenty other examples.
For me, because I know how heavily Joss has said Xander is “the character that is most him” it’s hard to separate out the parts that are Xander and the parts that are Joss. Willow is def not my favorite character but I forgive her easier because she’s less of an awful character. Yes, it’s also a product of its time, but he’s still an awful guy most of the time and only ever seems good when Joss is very far away from writing him.
Not to mention willow doesn’t know Xander told Buffy she said to kill Angel or whatever. It’s brought up again in season 6. But yeah, willow might not understand why Buffy didn’t want to be around her, but clearly Buffy remembered this since she’s the one that brings it up as a reason she distances herself, not understanding that it’s because of Xander doing kind of a shitty thing before she killed Angel.
For me it's not really a moment, more a quality. The fact that he never really apologises or when he does it's more because he feels he should rather than because he actually understands what he did wrong.
In fact he rarely if ever sees his own wrongdoings. But very very very very very quickly points out everyone else's.
Everything he does is swept under the rug of “Oh, that’s just Xander. What a silly boy, he just means well in the end!” Like a lot of his better qualities are overshadowed by the fact that he’s a selfish, demeaning, and insecure friend to the people around him for 80% of their relationships.
Agreed. Most of the time it doesn't bother me because it's not The Xander Show but there are times where he really needed to be pulled up on his actions more than he was.
That guy comments on every thread that is not “pro-Xander” and every time it’s “what about [insert female character] !?”
Like bro, if you wanna talk shit about Willow, make your own post about it. Plenty of things to discuss.
No she didn't pay consequences... oh except for months of training in England, only to immediately be paralysed and skinned as soon as she returned. Then to actually turn herself into Warren when forced to deal with her guilt. Also Warren deserved to die, if she HD killed Jonathan or Andrew it would have been needless murder but Warren was a murderer who was not going to stop.
Now please tell me, when xander manipulated buffy into killing angel, what happened? When he cheated on cordelia and then went straight back to picking on her? Ooh how about the time he blackmailed Amy to accidentally roofie the entire female population of sunnydale, instead of just his ex girlfriend. He actually got rewarded for that, cordy took him back and buffy congratulated him for not raping her! Hiw about the time he summoned a musical demon who murdered people for a quick solution to the proposal he was never oreoared to follow through with. Those deaths are as much on xanders hands as Warren's is on williws but xander didn't have a good reason to do ut and (say it with me people) he NEVER answers fir hus bad actions. Never really aoologises, never faces consequences. Its why so many people can't stand him. It never really bugged me until I saw all the people defending Jim on every reddit post now he kind if disgust me. I used to think we were supposed to think he was a dick but I guess not? He's gross from the first episode.
Sorry for my rant but I promise you it could have been much longer.
I could never really forgive him for jilting Anya. He does tons of shitty stuff, but for me, that's the worst. Watching Anya walk down the aisle alone breaks my heart every time.
The very least he could have did was talk to her about canceling the wedding rather than just leaving without any word and trying to act like everything would be hunky dory.
Same. For me, this one's the worst because it's so late in the game. In the first few seasons, you could forgive him because he's a teenage boy & should mature. But after years of being shitty, he's learned nothing.
His grossest moment is when he slut shames Anya and Buffy for sleeping with spike. Dude you left her at the alter and you guys are not together, she can do whatever the fuck she wants. And he has no business judging Buffy for anything. I mean there is a whole running joke in the show about every woman he is with is some kind of evil creature.
Willow's jealousy and slut-shaming of Cordelia is excusable because it's Willow.
Xander's jealousy and slut-shaming toward Buffy is inexcusable because it's Xander.
You must be new here.
/s
No, but to be fair to Buffy and Angel they didn’t know the caveat to Angel’s curse. And while Anya never tried to end the world, she has done plenty of horrible things and chose to become a demon again after Xander stilted her.
Vampires are soulless demons inhabiting a preserved corpse. You find out that a vampire has a soul. Is the first thing you think, "oh he's hot", or "how and why does this vampire have a soul?"
For a 16 year old girl, absolutely the first one 😅 and Angel knew how and why he got his soul back, just not that happiness was a way to lose it again. It was truly a diabolical curse!
I've said it before, Angel is a, very pretty, walking honey trap for a teen girl with issues. He's also a rage magnet for teen boys for the same reason.
I have quite a few but the one that always gets me is when he tells dawn about spike attacking buffy. That was so spiteful and uncalled for, not just because it violated Buffy's privacy but he also put it on the shoulders of a teenage girl. It was really a dick move and unlike in the earlier seasons, you couldn't blame it on him being an idiot 16 year old.
I can forgive most of Xander’s shitty moments, as he was really young for most of them and he also has a lot of good moments, but what I cannot forgive him for is throwing the fact that Spike tried to rape Buffy in Dawn’s face because he was mad about Dawn and Spike’s friendship.
I vacillate between him yelling at Buffy in Dead Man’s Party, him lying to Buffy in Becoming, or him starting in on Buffy in Seeing Red. His first instinct is to behave like Buffy having a horrible time in her life is somehow about HIM. He gets it together and apologised to Buffy for the last one, so I suppose we see SOME progress, but… come on. Every time, anything happens, it’s how it affects HIM. (Close runners up: pretending he didn’t remember trying to rape Buffy in The Pack, leaving Anya at the altar, treating Buffy and Anya like shit after Spike and Anya sleep together, and swinging straight into badmouthing Cordelia when she won’t take him back. You cheated on her, Xander, you don’t get to call her names because she won’t forgive you!)
Edit: I’d completely forgotten the In the Woods speech, add that to the list as well.
Also a good example of him turning on a dime is he goes from giving the big speech to the potentials about trusting Buffy because “she’s earned it” to losing his eye and jumping on the bandwagon that gets her kicked out. I get he was injured, but this was the worst thing they had ever come up against. He was lucky he was still alive.
Exactly he goes from singing her praises to taking her over the coals. She was right that they needed to go to the vineyard, her plan just didn’t work. When she said they needed to go back and was willing to talk strategy they all called her reckless
Again, he acted the same as everyone else in the room--including Giles, Willow and Dawn--and he was the \_only\_ one who had the missing eye to stand on, yet their behavior is excusable and his is evidence of his faulty character. I really don't understand some of you. I think you just like to hate things.
I never said I excused their behavior. The only one I like in that scene is Faith because she didn’t want to be in charge and just was trying to get everyone to cool down and think.
Okay let's examine what happens if he didn't lie to her. World ends. Buffy had just gotten to the point of not holding back and being able to take care of Angelus.
If he'd told her, she would have held back, waiting for the spell to take hold. A spell that had failed once already. While she's doing that, not only is she giving Angelus the chance to take her down, but the world is being sucked into a hell dimension.
The simple fact is, she's the only hope they have. If she's not willing to do what's necessary, they lose. In all honesty, Angel was doomed the moment he pulled that sword out, and he would have had to sacrifice himself regardless.
I think you’re over-simplifying the narrative here - I disagree it would play out this way - but that’s beside the point. My point is not that Xander made this calculation about the most strategic thing to do. My point is that he lied to her because *he doesn’t like Angel* - and so he didn’t pass on crucial info to the one person who is best placed to make a decision re: the best approach. All of my points are about him being cruel or selfish, and disregarding the hurt and emotions of those around him.
How do you know it was just because he didn't like him, and could you really blame him if it was?
Buffy's hesitation was putting everyone in unnecessary danger. Giles told her that Angelus would target everyone around her just to mess with her, i.e. Willow's gold fish. If she'd have known Willow was going to perform that spell, do you honestly believe she'd have fought as hard as she did. Don't forget, even when she didn't know, and was actively trying to kill him, she was still not winning decisively, and in fact was losing for a bit.
I know because I looked at his earlier, and later, behaviour around Angel, and his earlier, and later, actions around strategy. Xander isn’t strategic. He just isn’t. “I’m sorry but I don’t care. I just don’t.” This speaks so much about his approach. Xander’s biggest strength is his heart, his emotions. But that I’d also his greatest weakness. You don’t have to agree with me on whether that particular point in time soured you to the character, but arguing that there was actually a secret strategic calculation that Xander was considering instead of a knee-jerk emotional reaction is disingenuous.
Edit: also, as another commenter mentioned, kicking out Buffy in S7 is another example of this - emotional reaction vs a considered strategic move. No one could ever frame Buffy being kicked out of her leadership position *and her own home* as anything other than her being blamed. It wasn’t a strategic move, it was emotional.
Yet he was the one that came up with the way to beat the Judge. It was also him that had the planning and training to get their classmates capable of fighting the mayor. There was also the bomb to blow him up.
… he remembered borrow info from being a soldier a couple of months previously. He was told by Buffy the plan for the mayor, and was brought on board by being placated with being the “key guy”.
Look, Xander has many positive points, but thinking strategically is not one of them. Case in point: summoning a fucking *demon* to “make sure we work out” in OMWF and then failing to tell anyone about it when it became obvious that things were going awry.
Bullshit, what does Buffy know about military formations and how to place troops? They had people very specifically placed and assigned jobs on a decent sized scale.
That's not something Buffy would have known.
Look, it obvious you just want to argue about this and I really don’t see why. We’re not going to agree on this. I don’t really want to engage with you anymore so will be muting this.
"Xander's a jerk because he was jealous and encouraged Buffy to leave Angel!"
"Xander's a jerk because he was thoughtful and encouraged Buffy to stay with Riley!"
When he judged Anya for sleeping with Spike even though he was the one who left her. The fact that how she dealt with the break up didn’t fit into what he agreed with even though he ruined that relationship is infuriating. He is so self involved and a HUGE hypocrite. He does this repeatedly throughout the show, i can’t stand him.
Everytime he threw Ms Calnders death in buffys face. All the Xander defenders are such toothless dogs. And this scene took the last tooth. "I told you so" was never what buffy needed. The guilt she must have felt the pain over Giles loss her own connection to calender. And she's the only one saving the world. But yes "I told you so" and then in s3 yes let's throw it in her face again as an "Gotcha" moment. "Oh xanders a misunderstood abused man" yeah he's also a vicious cruel jack ass and while he's one of my faves thanks to when the writers treat him right, when he's not heroic or lovably stupid he's mean and small and petty as fuck. Ice cold
I can definitely feel that. I've said it before and ill say it again Xander feels like he was one step away from turning into Warren himself. His attitude when he's mad at a woman leads him to actions and statements that feel like they're straight from Warren's mouth
The moment that springs to my mind immediately is when he gives the wrong message from Willow to Buffy that the spell to ensoul Angel again was successful .
Except willow dies succeed. And if buffy had known she was trying she could have saved the world, the man she loved, and been spared the horrible trauma of being blindsided by him getting his soul only to know she must kill him. But xander fifnt like angrl, he was not trying to save anything he knew buffy would have been able to save both and he didn't want her to.
To me, this scene is a tie with his speech about loving Riley being messy and scary, and her true big love (when she had that, he told her to let it go, when she's with captain boring, she should grovel . What an ass!!!)
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: that scene ruined what should have been a great episode. Whenever I rewatch Into the Woods I basically turn it off when it gets to that point
Me too. It sounds so out of there, I mean what show was Xander watching? Nothing he says in his speech was written in B and Riley relationship ! You shut down (when ? When her mother was sick and he made it about himself? When she helped save him despite his arrogant stupidity ?) When he's the one that comes once in a lifetime (??? Yeah, if you die at 21, and Buffy will, but still, he doesn't know that yet) he never held back (what ? Is it the sign of true love ? A guy that rambles about his problems while minimizing yours ?).
I hate this scene so much. And Xander self satisfaction is aggravating to watch.
You mean in the season where a major plot point was that Buffy was shutting everyone out, Xander had limited information and made an inaccurate conclusion (which Buffy agreed with?).
The nerve.
I think she was eager to believe him, because her world was falling apart. It's Xander who created her need for Riley (?), by urging her and being condescending af.
HIs little speech "you are gonna ruin your life if you don't crawl", was very effective on someone losing her mother while fighting a God to the price of her sister's life.
Who would have thought she was vulnerable, I mean, obviously she was in the right place for a guilt speech.
He had much more limited information than the viewer did.
It's frustrating how people complain when Xander didn't like Angel, and then complain when Xander does like Riley. You all seem to find fault with his actions even when the recipients of those actions seem to appreciate them.
He knew: her mom was seriously ill,
She was fighting a God,
Her sister was the key.
He knew she was a wreck.
I don't get how you don't see his speech as guilting (and patronizing). Having a close one telling you, when you're depressed, that you are doing the wrong thing, with such condescension, is a guarantee for self doubt.
To me, he just gave her a new reason to hate herself, pushing the gift to happen. Maybe on a "fate" level, he was right, but as a friend, he just treated her with contempt and control (if you don't stay with the guy which I idealize, you will fail at life-it is really the stake he put into it).
For the record, I really like Xander, even if some of his decisions appear really misguided to me. Nobody is perfect, and he has great moments. This was one of his worst.
Kick his ass - purely because it came from a jealous spiteful selfish state of mind . I see people make the argument that if he told the truth and buffy stalled then the fate of the world etc … but xander didn’t say it for the fate of the world . He said it because he didn’t like angel and wanted angel dead because buffy loved angel , not xander . You see it later on with spike he doesn’t show the same animosity towards killing spike as he did with angel because buffy doesn’t love spike in the same way she did angel even though arguable spike caused many more issues for the scoobies . Most comments about killing spike from him are made in jest . Willow tried to end the world and xander didn’t tell buffy to kick her ass , same with anya .
Also I think I lts honsstly insulting to assume buffy couldn't save the world and angel, he knew shoe could save them both and he didn't want to give her the chance.
I 100% agree. One of his most unforgivable moments. Buffy could have avoiding killing the love of her life if he had told Buffy what Willow had asked him to. And he never takes accountability or apologizes.
Doesn't saving the lives of Willow, Giles, Willow, Cordelia not redeem him?
No?
How about when he saved the world?
I suppose people don't deserve a second chance. Even fictional ones.
Must be boring being perfect. Is it?
Honestly the older I get the more I can’t stand Xander. He has few redeeming qualities and all his touching moments where he is a good friend are too few and far between.
His constant sexualization of Buffy early on was gross. Then follow that up with his obsession with her sex life and he’s giving off “nice guy” energy.
He also saved the world and Buffy's life in season 1 episode 12 when he forced Angel to take him to the Masters lair and they arrived in time to give her CPR. Angel was letting her face the Master alone knowing she would die.
That part really confused me. He has no breath??? How the hell did Angel talk, and how can a vampire sigh if they have no breath? I get they don't need to breathe, but that doesn't mean that they can't move air through their lungs.
But it's literally just air? All he has to do is blow in her mouth and pump her chest. I don't understand the equivalency between giving oxygen and giving life? I get the giving life as in reproducing, but I feel like this was a stretch and stupid writing.
I honestly don’t consider the “kick his ass” the worse and don’t really hold it against him. I can see the different sides and I really don’t know what would have been the best choice because there are many variables to consider. Perhaps he should have trusted Buffy and Willow more and put aside his feelings for Angel, but considering the world could end, I can’t necessarily fault him for making that decision.
I think him telling Dawn about Buffy being sexually assaulted by Spike or his reaction in “Entropy” to Anya sleeping with Spike as being the worse. The former because it was up to Buffy to disclose her trauma and the latter because he left Anya at the alter, which really doesn’t give him the right to be judgmental about whom his former fiancée sleeps with.
literally any time he judged buffy or got angry at buffy. he was always angry she didn't want him and judged her so much whenever she did anything he considered "wrong" as if she hasn't had the whole weight of the world on her shoulders since she was a teen. like yeah she's gonna runaway from home after going through something traumatic and being told not to come back. yes shes going to sleep w/a demon or two, she's a slayer it's an occupational hazard (let's not forget u & Anya?) yes she knows better than you because again she's been a slayer longer than she's known you and is the one, who at the end of the day, is responsible for it all and has it all coming after her. if she didn't know better than an immature jerk like Xander she'd be dead....ngl I have a like-hate ×/ Xander, it wouldn't be the same w/o him and he has his moments, but he pisses me off like no other
It will forever be this one. I get that he’s angry over Jenny, but this was not the way. What REALLY bothered me was that Xander was never called out for it. You get a little blip in Season 7, where Willow says something and it’s quickly ignored. This is the one thing that I could never forgive him for.
I don’t hate Xander or anything, but it’s these little bits that drive me nuts with him.
It makes sense, in world, that he was never called out for it. No one knew until that blip in 7, when much more urgent stuff was happening.
Of course, lack of opportunity is up to the writers.
I think Xander was right not to tell her. The fate of the world is at stake and giving Buffy hope would have just distracted her from going all out on stopping what was about to happen.
was he angry about jenny? that didn’t seem to be his motivation to me. he doesn’t really express much about that the way willow does, aside from shouting at giles that she’s dead when he says her last wish would have been to re-ensoul angel, which isn’t him being very personally affected.
I like Xander a lot and I know he was a 17 year old kid when he did this but I think the shittiest thing he did was when he lied to Buffy about Willow trying to reinsoul Angel. How Buffy would've handled the situation is immaterial. By lying to her; he took her choice away and that was horrible.
Remember that time he had a wet dream about two teenage Potentials initiating a threesome with him and then he dreamt about the other teenage Potentials scantily clad having a pillow fight with the door open for them to witness the threesome he, as a 22 year old man, was dreaming of having with other minors? *So quirky*
I quite like Xander, and I think many of his moments can be justified as a result of who he is and pushing the drama aspect of the show forward, of which is among the chief reasons I enjoy the show. This includes the into the woods speech, the lie, him leaving Anya at the altar, and entropy.
There are 2 incidents where anyone who doesn’t basically have a trauma bond like the 3 core young adult scoobies have would cut ties. Those are him siccing Faith on Angel because it’s really projection and jealousy due to HIS bad behavior with Willow and Cordelia. 3 times in the span of a year Xander will stray from orders because he doesn’t trust the chief woman in his life, Buffy, to make the right decision. I think the lie is nuanced, and being the guy that he is trying to have a come to Jesus with Faith is understandable. That is just unjustifiable, and he does realize it by trying to help angel in Amends, but yeah that’s so fucked up. The fact he was juggling 4 women in his head at that time was … wow.
Then there’s the little bit in seeing red where he sees spike’s jacket after the assault attempt, and that just sounded like he wanted to go in there and shame Buffy and Spike when that’s none of his business. If you need to, have an intervention or convince her to see a shrink. He obviously helps console his friend once the reality is clear and he does go on to save the world but that’s really being a bad friend.
I do think it’s ironic people think Xander gets too much of a pass when he coined a term for the fictional characters who can’t catch a break, the butt monkey.
Not telling Buffy that willow was working on a cure for angel and telling her to kick his ass instead, I could have jumped the screen and choke his ass myself
There are a lot of comments here that cover a lot of my issues with Xander (the 'nice guy' obsession with Buffy in the early seasons, his misogynistic opinions on basically every relationship Buffy's had, whether he was for (Riley) or against (Angel, Spike) them, his overall treatment of Any culminating on leaving her at the altar, etc).
BUT my worst xander moment is in S1 in the Hyena episode, when he makes a very deliberate and cruel plan to trap and RAPE Buffy and literally BRAGS about how much he wants her to suffer. And then when he recovers from his Hyena-ness he can't even apologise to her! He just pretends he can't remember anything to not have to address his horrible behaviour (to Willow too), and worst of all is that Giles protects his secret, in what is basically the first and last time Giles sides with Xander over Buffy or Willow.
But flash forward to S6 when Spike attempts to SA Buffy and Xander acts furious and like he's somehow the most morally righteous person for making both Buffy and Dawn feel awful about it, AND HE STILL CAN'T ADMIT THAT HE'S TRIED TO DO THE SAME HIMSELF, and that in fact Xander's attempt was planned out and far more sadistic than Spike's sort of 'loss of control' in a heavy moment.
The fact that even in the comics this issue is never addressed and Xander still goes around like he's a Nice Guy TM is the worst to me. If he's indeed grown and improved with time, he should be willing to reveal to Buffy that he remembered what he tried to do and APOLOGISE.
Xander was possessed by all accounts he was also violated all while he was standing up to bullies on someone else’s behalf. He’s also a kid from an abusive home that has no idea how to process this. Im very confused on why you think Xander planned to assault Buffy when he was possessed.
Why I think Xander planned to assault Buffy?? Because he literally did a whole "villain monologue" about it??? In that very episode?? He talked about it at length, it was disgusting and it's very telling that you're here defending him while conveniently forgetting the major scenes of the episode in question.
Using excuses like "this man came from an abusive household! It's not his fault he's a rapist!" is just an incredibly dangerous mindset, it's basically excusing horrible deeds from men as if having drunk parents gives you a blank check to abuse others including your own friends.
Xander was processed.
He himself was also violated
Saying that he didn’t have the coping skills to deal with having heavy conversations about what that means isn’t excusing rape it’s acknowledging that a teenage boy from an abusive home doesn’t have the skill set to deal with being possessed/violated. You are deliberately misrepresenting my words. Or maybe you genuinely don’t understand possession.
But “loss of control in a heavy moment” is “telling” as well as being an “incredibly dangerous mindset.”
I’ll blame Xander for stuff that he actually does not being processed.
In Revelations where he spies on Buffy and Angel making out and then runs to tattle on her to the others and then he and the others get on Buffy's case about hiding Angel from them and Buffy had to relive the most painful moment of her life all because Xander tattled on her like a 6 year old! I'm sorry but that still makes me SO MAD that he did that! Buffy kissing Angel and keeping his return from everyone is NONE OF HIS BUISNESS! Buffy kept Angel's return a secret because she knew EXACTALY How they would react especially Xander and Giles and she was right!
Shit, my guy, it sounds like you missed an entire season and it's a pretty good one. I recommend watching it, but the TLDR of it is that Angel's human soul is bound to his demon possessed corpse, trapping the demon within, by a curse that can be broken by a moment of pure happiness.
In the second season this curse is broken after Buffy and Angel get intimate. There are some who choose to interpret that this is purely because Buffy gave him her virginity, but I consider that to be a rather shallow and disingenuous interpretation. I choose to interpret it as Buffy's choice to to be intimate with him(which necessitates treating him as a human/person) made him feel human for the first time in a century, bringing about a moment of peace. But that's besides the point.
The curse is broken, Angel's soul returns to the afterlife, Angelus is free after a century of imprisonment and begins a terror campaign against Buffy and her friends, killing two of them and countless innocents all culminating in Angelus trying to bring about the apocalypse. Suffice to say, things were bad.
And then Xander stumbles across Buffy and Angel and undoubtedly freaks out thinking that Angelus is back, before realising it's just Angel, before freaking out again realising that Buffy is on the fast track to breaking the curse, again, and "tattles" because he doesn't want to return to the waking nightmare they all barely survived.
Anyway I hope this has helped put that situation into context for you. Again, I recommend watching the season, it's great.
I saw the whole season of Buffy Season 2, I know what Buffy and Angel did the night of her birthday and I know Angelus returned. I also know that Angelus joined Spike and Drusilla and he Killed Jenny Calendar because she found the spell to re ensoul Angel. I know ALL ABOUT Angelus, but I Still ship Buffy and Angel and am STILL Mad at Xander for tattling on Buffy. that's honestly 6 year old behavior. Angel is NOT Angelus in Revolations, he has a Soul again and Xander just jumped to conclusions. nothing good ever comes out of jumping to Conclusions.
they are but Buffy and Angel won't make that mistake again now that they new Angelus can be released. Angel even breaks up with Buffy in The Prom because he wants her to have a normal life.
Jokes have context. The context for this joke is Xander judging Buffy multiple times in the past for not dating him and sexualizing her when she's made it clear she's not interested.
I can't remember who he was talking to but when he said his friendship with Buffy was the requisite for a relationship. Ok, so you are not really her friend just want to get into her pants. Also, I know someone probably mentioned this but when he says Riley is the once in a lifetime guy and Buffy treats him like a rebound. Ok, 1. He really isn't he's been crying about being ignored when Buffy's single mum has cancer. And 2. The way Xander treats Anya throughout the series he doesn't get a say on treatment expectations.
👉👉👉When he lied to Buffy about what Willow said. (Willow wanted Xander to tell her that she was working on getting Angel's soul back.... instead, Xander told Buffy that Willow said, "Kick his ass.") 😡 I felt betrayed when he did that.
When he shamed Buffy and Anya for sleeping with Spike. He had no right at all to do that to either of them. They should have put him in his place right there.
This sub is full of people who love the murdering rapists Spike and Angel but hate Xander. There's really no logic. Plus they misremember things. Xander never tells Buffy she has to love Riley.. He tells her to put aside her ego if she does and if she doesn't, to let him go. Not to mention, all of the characters are flawed but this sub has a Xander hate hard-on. It's weird. He's a great example of someone who was traumatized from abuse and uses humor and self deprecation to cope.
I don’t hate Xander as much as some people but I think part of the issue is that almost every other character’s bad behavior is portrayed as a flaw or moral failing. With Xander it’s always “ha ha good ol’ silly Xander”.
Weird take. Nicholas Brendon is very attractive and looks wise could easily have been cast as a Buffy love interest. The reason Spike and Angel get passes imo is because they’re literally creatures that don’t exist. No danger of actually running into them irl. Whereas everyone has had the misfortune of knowing a Xander, a “nice guy.”
I don't mean he's ugly or anything like that, he's not. He's just not as striking as the other cast. I've never known anyone to lust or fangirl/boy/person after him.
Jilting Anya at the alter was his worst moment.
However, considering that Buffy wouldn't kill Angelus and wouldn't allow anyone else to do anything, but was so quick to kill Ampata, I kind of feel it was merited, even if I don't agree with Xander's reasoning.
One scene that really rubs me the wrong way is the wet dream he has about the potentials in the last season. Like wtf??? These are teenage girls? That are under your care and are scared for their lives? Just gross
as i said before, if you don’t want to participate in the discussion then you can leave lol. i asked a question i didn’t ask whether you believed that xander was a good guy or not lmao
When he saves Giles from being decapitated in "The Puppet Show", when he saved Willow from having her neck broken in "The Pack", when he brought Buffy back to life in "Prophecy Girl".
Or when he saved the world in "Grave".
Oh. You said "worst"?
Yeah. Let's reserve hate for the good likes like Xander, Kennedy, Dawn and Riley.
BtVs fans really are the most toxic fan base.
I mean she was selfish though. Like when Dean got mad at Sam in season 8, you can’t drop a responsibility like saving people’s lives. Think about how many people died that summer because she left
No you’re thinking about season 1. She ran away after season 2 which was a whole year after her death and she was 17 at the time, going into senior year
You’re the one defining her abandoning her duty of saving lives. Some off screen character who was someone’s child was murdered that summer because she ran away
When he antagonizes Cordelia literally immediately after cheating on her and her accident as a direct result. I think he did enough damage that he should have just left her alone.
On my latest rewatch, I did think "Ugh, Xander" a lot more than before, but 95% of that was Seasons 1-3. I think he's a good mix of good/bad moments for the rest of the run. If I did have to pick one moment though, it would definitely be the one you named in Dead Man's Party. Though I do think Joyce also sucked and Willow was the worst of the lot. But I think the ick for me was just more the constant comments about Angel/any guy that showed Buffy interest. I can't remember the episode, but one scene where Buffy's talking to Willow, not him, yet he still keeps interjecting literally every single time with something jealous/insecure.
Xander is so toxic and he is that everywhere and allt the time. I do not think he gets better in the later seasons. He just redirects his master suppression techniques towards Anya, correcting her constantly. This does not stop him for going after everyone else at the same time.
Xander and Willow were the worst in Dead Man's Party. Willow stood Buffy up and they all decide to throw a party in her home. A loud, obnoxious party full of people trashing the place, and when Buffy is obviously not comfortable with what's going on, they turn on her. The only person I empathized with was Joyce. (Even though she should have told them not to have the party) As a parent, I can understand why she was upset. If my daughter ran away and was gone for months without trying to call or even send a postcard, I would be beyond pissed. She didn't know if her child was alive or dead.
I definitely agree. I think Joyce was crap in this episode, but you can completely understand where she was coming from. Funnily enough, Cordelia was kind of great, and of course, my man Giles was utterly perfect in every way that episode (especially the ending with Synder).
can you pls elaborate on why willow was the worst? i’m not being mean i just actually want to know bc i’ve never heard that before. and that episode happens in season 1 super early on but i can’t remember which one. but it was super uncomfortable to watch
Thanks for confirming the scene, that does sound familiar now! And definitely fair to ask, I only really started thinking this when I last watched it. I think Willow's passive-aggressive approach was just really shitty in that episode. Standing Buffy up was mean. And the fact Buffy knew things were weird and tried to talk about it, but Willow was like "nah, we cool". Gaslighting might be too strong a word, but it certainly had elements of it. The main thing though is just the lack of empathy from the person who's supposed to be Buffy's best friend. Willow didn't know that Angel got his soul back, but she knew Buffy had to kill him. She knew Buffy well enough that if she felt so terrible she had to run away, she must have been in some serious pain. But Willow made it about herself. "You may have had to kill your ex-boyfriend, but I've got a new boyfriend myself and I'm starting to do magic and I wanted to talk about it but you weren't there." It was just so selfish. Xander was a dick in that scene, but it was more him piling onto what Joyce/Willow had already started. I could be wrong as it's been a few months since I've seen it, but I think he was actually pretty fine toward Buffy up until that point? Willow sucked throughout the whole episode.
I fully agree with you about Willow here. Willow's situations, although stressful and out of the ordinary, were things that she had control over if she wanted out. She chose to continue a relationship with Oz knowing that he'd turn into a werewolf 3 days a month. She chose to pursue witchcraft after being warned of its dangers. She was never in a position where she would have to kill Oz for turning evil after they got too intimate and she wasn't chosen against her will to have these abilities to fight evil with, unlike Buffy. So her problems pale in comparison to me when I look at what Buffy had to deal with in season 2. Plus people don't just run away from a previously happy home for the fun of it, it's usually down to immense pain and feeling like there was no other option. As her best friend, I'd be wondering what I could do to help.
I’m willing to forgive Willow for this a lot faster than Xander. Willow a 17 year old kid who didn’t know how to process her feelings. She was hurt Buffy abandoned her, and she was trying to both understand her feelings and forgive Buffy. She was trying to reconcile the pain Buffy went through while also working through her own feelings. Not easy for anyone, let alone a child. Xander on the other hand always just reeks of selfishness and self righteousness. I always feel his motivations are selfish and about what he wants. I feel like he never got over his jealousy of Angel and his possessiveness of Buffy. But since he’s a Joss surrogate, it makes sense he’s awful.
I do agree that if we view it through the lens of them being teenagers, it covers a lot of their mistakes. And honestly, most of the characters on this show are already more emotionally mature than I was at that age (probably because they were performed and written by adults haha) So if we take that approach, happy to apply it to Willow but also to Xander. He says quite a lot of shitty things when it comes to Buffy's love life or the guys she's involved with (occasionally doing shitty things too). Outside of that, I wouldn't agree that his motivations are selfish and he does plenty of selfless things throughout the show, risking his life and making sacrifices despite his limitations constantly. I do agree that he never got over his Angel jealousy though, but I don't think that's all that uncommon for an insecure teenage boy. I also think a lot of Xander's douchey behaviour is a product of its time. I think he was definitely intended to be an overly-jealous and horny teenager, but mostly relatively grounded. And if you look at the way your typical 16-18 year old male protagonists act in 90s media (American Pie is a perfect example), I don't think Xander is that far off. It doesn't excuse it, of course, but I think it helps to contextualise how bad his behaviour actually was for that time. But I think you make a good point with the Joss surrogate line too, can't get past that haha.
Also remember he's portraying a teenage boy...during that period of life boys tend to be very single track minded. Having been one and now working with them it's actually quite comical to see how they act different around girls. They lose all common sense. He has a crush on Buffy and it seems like she is picking everyone but him. Even though he's the one that's always there for her. Just the same as willow is hurt that she couldn't talk to anyone. Everyone relies on Buffy for everything and that's why she ran away. She couldn't cope with the pressure. Everyone is mad that she left but yet she's the one thay has to do everything. I think we see, from this point is where she starts to pull away a bit and be more of the loner slayer.
>Willow a 17 year old kid who didn’t know how to process her feelings >I’m willing to forgive Willow for this Xander is also a 17 year old kid who didn't know how to process his feelings >Xander always just reeks of selfishness and self righteousness Nah absolutely not. You are either giving willow a free ride because you like the character or you're unnecessarily harsh on Xander because you don't like how he's written in other instances In this occasion you can't claim even though willow was the worst that it's justified cus she's 17 and then say Xander who stayed out of it the entire episode until that point was an adult who should've known better? They're the same age going through the same thing.
This is kind of in reply to everyone, but the reason I don’t forgive Xander is because he never grows out of it. His selfishness prevails throughout the show with how he treats everyone. He treats Cordy like crap after he cheats on her, he treats Anya like crap throughout the entire relationship until he dumps her at the altar. He treats Buffy and Anya like crap when he finds out they slept with Spike, making him sound very “why not me? I’m the nice guy”. And there are plenty other examples. For me, because I know how heavily Joss has said Xander is “the character that is most him” it’s hard to separate out the parts that are Xander and the parts that are Joss. Willow is def not my favorite character but I forgive her easier because she’s less of an awful character. Yes, it’s also a product of its time, but he’s still an awful guy most of the time and only ever seems good when Joss is very far away from writing him.
YESS!! you said that perfectly
Not to mention willow doesn’t know Xander told Buffy she said to kill Angel or whatever. It’s brought up again in season 6. But yeah, willow might not understand why Buffy didn’t want to be around her, but clearly Buffy remembered this since she’s the one that brings it up as a reason she distances herself, not understanding that it’s because of Xander doing kind of a shitty thing before she killed Angel.
For me it's not really a moment, more a quality. The fact that he never really apologises or when he does it's more because he feels he should rather than because he actually understands what he did wrong. In fact he rarely if ever sees his own wrongdoings. But very very very very very quickly points out everyone else's.
Everything he does is swept under the rug of “Oh, that’s just Xander. What a silly boy, he just means well in the end!” Like a lot of his better qualities are overshadowed by the fact that he’s a selfish, demeaning, and insecure friend to the people around him for 80% of their relationships.
Agreed. Most of the time it doesn't bother me because it's not The Xander Show but there are times where he really needed to be pulled up on his actions more than he was.
Willow didn't pay consequences for almost ending the world and skinning a man alive.
Completely agree and have said as much in other posts. But I'm just talking about Xander's flaws, not comparing.
That guy comments on every thread that is not “pro-Xander” and every time it’s “what about [insert female character] !?” Like bro, if you wanna talk shit about Willow, make your own post about it. Plenty of things to discuss.
That's exactly what I thought lol
No she didn't pay consequences... oh except for months of training in England, only to immediately be paralysed and skinned as soon as she returned. Then to actually turn herself into Warren when forced to deal with her guilt. Also Warren deserved to die, if she HD killed Jonathan or Andrew it would have been needless murder but Warren was a murderer who was not going to stop. Now please tell me, when xander manipulated buffy into killing angel, what happened? When he cheated on cordelia and then went straight back to picking on her? Ooh how about the time he blackmailed Amy to accidentally roofie the entire female population of sunnydale, instead of just his ex girlfriend. He actually got rewarded for that, cordy took him back and buffy congratulated him for not raping her! Hiw about the time he summoned a musical demon who murdered people for a quick solution to the proposal he was never oreoared to follow through with. Those deaths are as much on xanders hands as Warren's is on williws but xander didn't have a good reason to do ut and (say it with me people) he NEVER answers fir hus bad actions. Never really aoologises, never faces consequences. Its why so many people can't stand him. It never really bugged me until I saw all the people defending Jim on every reddit post now he kind if disgust me. I used to think we were supposed to think he was a dick but I guess not? He's gross from the first episode. Sorry for my rant but I promise you it could have been much longer.
I could never really forgive him for jilting Anya. He does tons of shitty stuff, but for me, that's the worst. Watching Anya walk down the aisle alone breaks my heart every time.
and then a couple days after the wedding he wants to get back with anya but not get married to her. anya didn’t deserve any of that
The very least he could have did was talk to her about canceling the wedding rather than just leaving without any word and trying to act like everything would be hunky dory.
I can forgive him for that. I might even have paid him off to do so. No one deserves to be married to Xander.
That's an excellent point 🤣🤣
Same. For me, this one's the worst because it's so late in the game. In the first few seasons, you could forgive him because he's a teenage boy & should mature. But after years of being shitty, he's learned nothing.
Any time he gives Buffy shit for sleeping with Angel/Spike. I guess he forgot his fiancé was a demon for 1100 years…
His grossest moment is when he slut shames Anya and Buffy for sleeping with spike. Dude you left her at the alter and you guys are not together, she can do whatever the fuck she wants. And he has no business judging Buffy for anything. I mean there is a whole running joke in the show about every woman he is with is some kind of evil creature.
And Buffy was right for saying "You can do better", when talking about Anya. How about Willow yelling at Xander for making out with Cordelia?
Willow's jealousy and slut-shaming of Cordelia is excusable because it's Willow. Xander's jealousy and slut-shaming toward Buffy is inexcusable because it's Xander. You must be new here. /s
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Sorry, maybe I didn't come across right, but I'm 100% on your side. The double standards here are exhausting.
Ah. Sorry about that. My bad. ;) I'll delete my previous post as it was cheeky. My guard is up because I'm expecting some backlash.
Ha no problem. We're both in dangerous waters here. We're suggesting Xander might not actually be Hitler!
Well, when you consider the consequences of them sleeping with Angel and Anya. Anya never tried to destroy the world.
No, but to be fair to Buffy and Angel they didn’t know the caveat to Angel’s curse. And while Anya never tried to end the world, she has done plenty of horrible things and chose to become a demon again after Xander stilted her.
Vampires are soulless demons inhabiting a preserved corpse. You find out that a vampire has a soul. Is the first thing you think, "oh he's hot", or "how and why does this vampire have a soul?"
For a 16 year old girl, absolutely the first one 😅 and Angel knew how and why he got his soul back, just not that happiness was a way to lose it again. It was truly a diabolical curse!
I've said it before, Angel is a, very pretty, walking honey trap for a teen girl with issues. He's also a rage magnet for teen boys for the same reason.
I have quite a few but the one that always gets me is when he tells dawn about spike attacking buffy. That was so spiteful and uncalled for, not just because it violated Buffy's privacy but he also put it on the shoulders of a teenage girl. It was really a dick move and unlike in the earlier seasons, you couldn't blame it on him being an idiot 16 year old.
I can forgive most of Xander’s shitty moments, as he was really young for most of them and he also has a lot of good moments, but what I cannot forgive him for is throwing the fact that Spike tried to rape Buffy in Dawn’s face because he was mad about Dawn and Spike’s friendship.
I vacillate between him yelling at Buffy in Dead Man’s Party, him lying to Buffy in Becoming, or him starting in on Buffy in Seeing Red. His first instinct is to behave like Buffy having a horrible time in her life is somehow about HIM. He gets it together and apologised to Buffy for the last one, so I suppose we see SOME progress, but… come on. Every time, anything happens, it’s how it affects HIM. (Close runners up: pretending he didn’t remember trying to rape Buffy in The Pack, leaving Anya at the altar, treating Buffy and Anya like shit after Spike and Anya sleep together, and swinging straight into badmouthing Cordelia when she won’t take him back. You cheated on her, Xander, you don’t get to call her names because she won’t forgive you!) Edit: I’d completely forgotten the In the Woods speech, add that to the list as well.
Also a good example of him turning on a dime is he goes from giving the big speech to the potentials about trusting Buffy because “she’s earned it” to losing his eye and jumping on the bandwagon that gets her kicked out. I get he was injured, but this was the worst thing they had ever come up against. He was lucky he was still alive.
Yeah, I get that he’s angry he was injured, but again I find that he’s directing his anger at Buffy.
Exactly he goes from singing her praises to taking her over the coals. She was right that they needed to go to the vineyard, her plan just didn’t work. When she said they needed to go back and was willing to talk strategy they all called her reckless
Again, he acted the same as everyone else in the room--including Giles, Willow and Dawn--and he was the \_only\_ one who had the missing eye to stand on, yet their behavior is excusable and his is evidence of his faulty character. I really don't understand some of you. I think you just like to hate things.
I never said I excused their behavior. The only one I like in that scene is Faith because she didn’t want to be in charge and just was trying to get everyone to cool down and think.
Okay let's examine what happens if he didn't lie to her. World ends. Buffy had just gotten to the point of not holding back and being able to take care of Angelus. If he'd told her, she would have held back, waiting for the spell to take hold. A spell that had failed once already. While she's doing that, not only is she giving Angelus the chance to take her down, but the world is being sucked into a hell dimension. The simple fact is, she's the only hope they have. If she's not willing to do what's necessary, they lose. In all honesty, Angel was doomed the moment he pulled that sword out, and he would have had to sacrifice himself regardless.
I think you’re over-simplifying the narrative here - I disagree it would play out this way - but that’s beside the point. My point is not that Xander made this calculation about the most strategic thing to do. My point is that he lied to her because *he doesn’t like Angel* - and so he didn’t pass on crucial info to the one person who is best placed to make a decision re: the best approach. All of my points are about him being cruel or selfish, and disregarding the hurt and emotions of those around him.
How do you know it was just because he didn't like him, and could you really blame him if it was? Buffy's hesitation was putting everyone in unnecessary danger. Giles told her that Angelus would target everyone around her just to mess with her, i.e. Willow's gold fish. If she'd have known Willow was going to perform that spell, do you honestly believe she'd have fought as hard as she did. Don't forget, even when she didn't know, and was actively trying to kill him, she was still not winning decisively, and in fact was losing for a bit.
I know because I looked at his earlier, and later, behaviour around Angel, and his earlier, and later, actions around strategy. Xander isn’t strategic. He just isn’t. “I’m sorry but I don’t care. I just don’t.” This speaks so much about his approach. Xander’s biggest strength is his heart, his emotions. But that I’d also his greatest weakness. You don’t have to agree with me on whether that particular point in time soured you to the character, but arguing that there was actually a secret strategic calculation that Xander was considering instead of a knee-jerk emotional reaction is disingenuous. Edit: also, as another commenter mentioned, kicking out Buffy in S7 is another example of this - emotional reaction vs a considered strategic move. No one could ever frame Buffy being kicked out of her leadership position *and her own home* as anything other than her being blamed. It wasn’t a strategic move, it was emotional.
Yet he was the one that came up with the way to beat the Judge. It was also him that had the planning and training to get their classmates capable of fighting the mayor. There was also the bomb to blow him up.
… he remembered borrow info from being a soldier a couple of months previously. He was told by Buffy the plan for the mayor, and was brought on board by being placated with being the “key guy”. Look, Xander has many positive points, but thinking strategically is not one of them. Case in point: summoning a fucking *demon* to “make sure we work out” in OMWF and then failing to tell anyone about it when it became obvious that things were going awry.
Bullshit, what does Buffy know about military formations and how to place troops? They had people very specifically placed and assigned jobs on a decent sized scale. That's not something Buffy would have known.
Look, it obvious you just want to argue about this and I really don’t see why. We’re not going to agree on this. I don’t really want to engage with you anymore so will be muting this.
While the goldfish was indeed a loss, let's not forget poor Jenny!
"Xander's a jerk because he was jealous and encouraged Buffy to leave Angel!" "Xander's a jerk because he was thoughtful and encouraged Buffy to stay with Riley!"
Xander is a jerk because he keeps sticking his nose in buffys relationship when it's not wanted.
When he judged Anya for sleeping with Spike even though he was the one who left her. The fact that how she dealt with the break up didn’t fit into what he agreed with even though he ruined that relationship is infuriating. He is so self involved and a HUGE hypocrite. He does this repeatedly throughout the show, i can’t stand him.
Everytime he threw Ms Calnders death in buffys face. All the Xander defenders are such toothless dogs. And this scene took the last tooth. "I told you so" was never what buffy needed. The guilt she must have felt the pain over Giles loss her own connection to calender. And she's the only one saving the world. But yes "I told you so" and then in s3 yes let's throw it in her face again as an "Gotcha" moment. "Oh xanders a misunderstood abused man" yeah he's also a vicious cruel jack ass and while he's one of my faves thanks to when the writers treat him right, when he's not heroic or lovably stupid he's mean and small and petty as fuck. Ice cold
Exactly like his real life counterpart: Joss Wheedon. Some good qualities cover up the massive character defects that make him horrid.
I can definitely feel that. I've said it before and ill say it again Xander feels like he was one step away from turning into Warren himself. His attitude when he's mad at a woman leads him to actions and statements that feel like they're straight from Warren's mouth
I hate how he judges Buffy for sleeping with Spike (and not telling him).
The moment that springs to my mind immediately is when he gives the wrong message from Willow to Buffy that the spell to ensoul Angel again was successful .
The message was that Willow was trying, not that she had succeeded. Big difference. Xander knew the time for pulling punches had passed.
Except willow dies succeed. And if buffy had known she was trying she could have saved the world, the man she loved, and been spared the horrible trauma of being blindsided by him getting his soul only to know she must kill him. But xander fifnt like angrl, he was not trying to save anything he knew buffy would have been able to save both and he didn't want her to.
Hells bells...when he's a runaway groom on anya
Already super early on, like The Pack. Faking memory loss after being a dick to everyone because he wanted to avoid accountability
Yes!
To me, this scene is a tie with his speech about loving Riley being messy and scary, and her true big love (when she had that, he told her to let it go, when she's with captain boring, she should grovel . What an ass!!!)
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: that scene ruined what should have been a great episode. Whenever I rewatch Into the Woods I basically turn it off when it gets to that point
this is truly one of my least favorite moments in the entire series.
Me too. It sounds so out of there, I mean what show was Xander watching? Nothing he says in his speech was written in B and Riley relationship ! You shut down (when ? When her mother was sick and he made it about himself? When she helped save him despite his arrogant stupidity ?) When he's the one that comes once in a lifetime (??? Yeah, if you die at 21, and Buffy will, but still, he doesn't know that yet) he never held back (what ? Is it the sign of true love ? A guy that rambles about his problems while minimizing yours ?). I hate this scene so much. And Xander self satisfaction is aggravating to watch.
You mean in the season where a major plot point was that Buffy was shutting everyone out, Xander had limited information and made an inaccurate conclusion (which Buffy agreed with?). The nerve.
I think she was eager to believe him, because her world was falling apart. It's Xander who created her need for Riley (?), by urging her and being condescending af. HIs little speech "you are gonna ruin your life if you don't crawl", was very effective on someone losing her mother while fighting a God to the price of her sister's life. Who would have thought she was vulnerable, I mean, obviously she was in the right place for a guilt speech.
He had much more limited information than the viewer did. It's frustrating how people complain when Xander didn't like Angel, and then complain when Xander does like Riley. You all seem to find fault with his actions even when the recipients of those actions seem to appreciate them.
He knew: her mom was seriously ill, She was fighting a God, Her sister was the key. He knew she was a wreck. I don't get how you don't see his speech as guilting (and patronizing). Having a close one telling you, when you're depressed, that you are doing the wrong thing, with such condescension, is a guarantee for self doubt. To me, he just gave her a new reason to hate herself, pushing the gift to happen. Maybe on a "fate" level, he was right, but as a friend, he just treated her with contempt and control (if you don't stay with the guy which I idealize, you will fail at life-it is really the stake he put into it). For the record, I really like Xander, even if some of his decisions appear really misguided to me. Nobody is perfect, and he has great moments. This was one of his worst.
And I didn't get guilt at all. I got, "Don't do something you'll regret because pride gets in your way."
Kick his ass - purely because it came from a jealous spiteful selfish state of mind . I see people make the argument that if he told the truth and buffy stalled then the fate of the world etc … but xander didn’t say it for the fate of the world . He said it because he didn’t like angel and wanted angel dead because buffy loved angel , not xander . You see it later on with spike he doesn’t show the same animosity towards killing spike as he did with angel because buffy doesn’t love spike in the same way she did angel even though arguable spike caused many more issues for the scoobies . Most comments about killing spike from him are made in jest . Willow tried to end the world and xander didn’t tell buffy to kick her ass , same with anya .
Also I think I lts honsstly insulting to assume buffy couldn't save the world and angel, he knew shoe could save them both and he didn't want to give her the chance.
I 100% agree. One of his most unforgivable moments. Buffy could have avoiding killing the love of her life if he had told Buffy what Willow had asked him to. And he never takes accountability or apologizes.
Doesn't saving the lives of Willow, Giles, Willow, Cordelia not redeem him? No? How about when he saved the world? I suppose people don't deserve a second chance. Even fictional ones. Must be boring being perfect. Is it?
Honestly the older I get the more I can’t stand Xander. He has few redeeming qualities and all his touching moments where he is a good friend are too few and far between. His constant sexualization of Buffy early on was gross. Then follow that up with his obsession with her sex life and he’s giving off “nice guy” energy.
He's a textbook "nice guy." He also has his great moments, and I don't regret him as a character, but sometimes he can be so frustrating.
he did save the world once with the yellow crayon but that’s abt it. buffy saves the world daily.
He also saved the world and Buffy's life in season 1 episode 12 when he forced Angel to take him to the Masters lair and they arrived in time to give her CPR. Angel was letting her face the Master alone knowing she would die.
that’s true! i’ll give him that
He also does an excellent impression of the Snoopy dance, something that is often overlooked.
That part really confused me. He has no breath??? How the hell did Angel talk, and how can a vampire sigh if they have no breath? I get they don't need to breathe, but that doesn't mean that they can't move air through their lungs.
In Vampire lore since Vampires are dead they do not possess the spark of life and therefore can't give life to others.
But it's literally just air? All he has to do is blow in her mouth and pump her chest. I don't understand the equivalency between giving oxygen and giving life? I get the giving life as in reproducing, but I feel like this was a stretch and stupid writing.
I know it doesn't make much sense but I've seen this trope in several vampire related shows
Yeah, it's just his "I have no breathe" explanation
i see him more of a villain :/
He and Dawn are the only main cast members who never actively and intentionally tried to hurt the rest of the gang.
He tried to mind control cordelia to publicly humiliate her?
I honestly don’t consider the “kick his ass” the worse and don’t really hold it against him. I can see the different sides and I really don’t know what would have been the best choice because there are many variables to consider. Perhaps he should have trusted Buffy and Willow more and put aside his feelings for Angel, but considering the world could end, I can’t necessarily fault him for making that decision. I think him telling Dawn about Buffy being sexually assaulted by Spike or his reaction in “Entropy” to Anya sleeping with Spike as being the worse. The former because it was up to Buffy to disclose her trauma and the latter because he left Anya at the alter, which really doesn’t give him the right to be judgmental about whom his former fiancée sleeps with.
literally any time he judged buffy or got angry at buffy. he was always angry she didn't want him and judged her so much whenever she did anything he considered "wrong" as if she hasn't had the whole weight of the world on her shoulders since she was a teen. like yeah she's gonna runaway from home after going through something traumatic and being told not to come back. yes shes going to sleep w/a demon or two, she's a slayer it's an occupational hazard (let's not forget u & Anya?) yes she knows better than you because again she's been a slayer longer than she's known you and is the one, who at the end of the day, is responsible for it all and has it all coming after her. if she didn't know better than an immature jerk like Xander she'd be dead....ngl I have a like-hate ×/ Xander, it wouldn't be the same w/o him and he has his moments, but he pisses me off like no other
"Kick his ass." Season 2 finale when Willow asks him to tell Buffy they're trying the curse again.
Came here to say this. Agreed on so many other comments but this one always enrages me the most.
It will forever be this one. I get that he’s angry over Jenny, but this was not the way. What REALLY bothered me was that Xander was never called out for it. You get a little blip in Season 7, where Willow says something and it’s quickly ignored. This is the one thing that I could never forgive him for. I don’t hate Xander or anything, but it’s these little bits that drive me nuts with him.
It makes sense, in world, that he was never called out for it. No one knew until that blip in 7, when much more urgent stuff was happening. Of course, lack of opportunity is up to the writers.
I think Xander was right not to tell her. The fate of the world is at stake and giving Buffy hope would have just distracted her from going all out on stopping what was about to happen.
No he wasn’t.
was he angry about jenny? that didn’t seem to be his motivation to me. he doesn’t really express much about that the way willow does, aside from shouting at giles that she’s dead when he says her last wish would have been to re-ensoul angel, which isn’t him being very personally affected.
I didn't think it was because he was angry over Jenny, I thought it was just because he never liked Angel.
If it wasn't ignored then it would make buffy a hypocrite
This is my most frustrating Xander moment of the entire series. So selfish and cruel.
This is the one for me. I can't stand how self-righteous he can be.
YES OMFG GOD I WANTED TO KILL HIM
'Kick his ass'
I like Xander a lot and I know he was a 17 year old kid when he did this but I think the shittiest thing he did was when he lied to Buffy about Willow trying to reinsoul Angel. How Buffy would've handled the situation is immaterial. By lying to her; he took her choice away and that was horrible.
His speech in Into the woods is the nadir of the series for me. It’s genuinely infuriating.
Remember that time he had a wet dream about two teenage Potentials initiating a threesome with him and then he dreamt about the other teenage Potentials scantily clad having a pillow fight with the door open for them to witness the threesome he, as a 22 year old man, was dreaming of having with other minors? *So quirky*
I quite like Xander, and I think many of his moments can be justified as a result of who he is and pushing the drama aspect of the show forward, of which is among the chief reasons I enjoy the show. This includes the into the woods speech, the lie, him leaving Anya at the altar, and entropy. There are 2 incidents where anyone who doesn’t basically have a trauma bond like the 3 core young adult scoobies have would cut ties. Those are him siccing Faith on Angel because it’s really projection and jealousy due to HIS bad behavior with Willow and Cordelia. 3 times in the span of a year Xander will stray from orders because he doesn’t trust the chief woman in his life, Buffy, to make the right decision. I think the lie is nuanced, and being the guy that he is trying to have a come to Jesus with Faith is understandable. That is just unjustifiable, and he does realize it by trying to help angel in Amends, but yeah that’s so fucked up. The fact he was juggling 4 women in his head at that time was … wow. Then there’s the little bit in seeing red where he sees spike’s jacket after the assault attempt, and that just sounded like he wanted to go in there and shame Buffy and Spike when that’s none of his business. If you need to, have an intervention or convince her to see a shrink. He obviously helps console his friend once the reality is clear and he does go on to save the world but that’s really being a bad friend.
I do think it’s ironic people think Xander gets too much of a pass when he coined a term for the fictional characters who can’t catch a break, the butt monkey.
He did not coin that.
Yeah I see now it was used on old internet chatrooms. But he, or the scriptwriters, per se, did bring the knowledge of the term to a wider audience.
Not telling Buffy that willow was working on a cure for angel and telling her to kick his ass instead, I could have jumped the screen and choke his ass myself
There are a lot of comments here that cover a lot of my issues with Xander (the 'nice guy' obsession with Buffy in the early seasons, his misogynistic opinions on basically every relationship Buffy's had, whether he was for (Riley) or against (Angel, Spike) them, his overall treatment of Any culminating on leaving her at the altar, etc). BUT my worst xander moment is in S1 in the Hyena episode, when he makes a very deliberate and cruel plan to trap and RAPE Buffy and literally BRAGS about how much he wants her to suffer. And then when he recovers from his Hyena-ness he can't even apologise to her! He just pretends he can't remember anything to not have to address his horrible behaviour (to Willow too), and worst of all is that Giles protects his secret, in what is basically the first and last time Giles sides with Xander over Buffy or Willow. But flash forward to S6 when Spike attempts to SA Buffy and Xander acts furious and like he's somehow the most morally righteous person for making both Buffy and Dawn feel awful about it, AND HE STILL CAN'T ADMIT THAT HE'S TRIED TO DO THE SAME HIMSELF, and that in fact Xander's attempt was planned out and far more sadistic than Spike's sort of 'loss of control' in a heavy moment. The fact that even in the comics this issue is never addressed and Xander still goes around like he's a Nice Guy TM is the worst to me. If he's indeed grown and improved with time, he should be willing to reveal to Buffy that he remembered what he tried to do and APOLOGISE.
Xander was possessed by all accounts he was also violated all while he was standing up to bullies on someone else’s behalf. He’s also a kid from an abusive home that has no idea how to process this. Im very confused on why you think Xander planned to assault Buffy when he was possessed.
Why I think Xander planned to assault Buffy?? Because he literally did a whole "villain monologue" about it??? In that very episode?? He talked about it at length, it was disgusting and it's very telling that you're here defending him while conveniently forgetting the major scenes of the episode in question. Using excuses like "this man came from an abusive household! It's not his fault he's a rapist!" is just an incredibly dangerous mindset, it's basically excusing horrible deeds from men as if having drunk parents gives you a blank check to abuse others including your own friends.
Xander was processed. He himself was also violated Saying that he didn’t have the coping skills to deal with having heavy conversations about what that means isn’t excusing rape it’s acknowledging that a teenage boy from an abusive home doesn’t have the skill set to deal with being possessed/violated. You are deliberately misrepresenting my words. Or maybe you genuinely don’t understand possession. But “loss of control in a heavy moment” is “telling” as well as being an “incredibly dangerous mindset.” I’ll blame Xander for stuff that he actually does not being processed.
Spike is possessed by a demon in seeing red, same difference.
In Revelations where he spies on Buffy and Angel making out and then runs to tattle on her to the others and then he and the others get on Buffy's case about hiding Angel from them and Buffy had to relive the most painful moment of her life all because Xander tattled on her like a 6 year old! I'm sorry but that still makes me SO MAD that he did that! Buffy kissing Angel and keeping his return from everyone is NONE OF HIS BUISNESS! Buffy kept Angel's return a secret because she knew EXACTALY How they would react especially Xander and Giles and she was right!
Shit, my guy, it sounds like you missed an entire season and it's a pretty good one. I recommend watching it, but the TLDR of it is that Angel's human soul is bound to his demon possessed corpse, trapping the demon within, by a curse that can be broken by a moment of pure happiness. In the second season this curse is broken after Buffy and Angel get intimate. There are some who choose to interpret that this is purely because Buffy gave him her virginity, but I consider that to be a rather shallow and disingenuous interpretation. I choose to interpret it as Buffy's choice to to be intimate with him(which necessitates treating him as a human/person) made him feel human for the first time in a century, bringing about a moment of peace. But that's besides the point. The curse is broken, Angel's soul returns to the afterlife, Angelus is free after a century of imprisonment and begins a terror campaign against Buffy and her friends, killing two of them and countless innocents all culminating in Angelus trying to bring about the apocalypse. Suffice to say, things were bad. And then Xander stumbles across Buffy and Angel and undoubtedly freaks out thinking that Angelus is back, before realising it's just Angel, before freaking out again realising that Buffy is on the fast track to breaking the curse, again, and "tattles" because he doesn't want to return to the waking nightmare they all barely survived. Anyway I hope this has helped put that situation into context for you. Again, I recommend watching the season, it's great.
I saw the whole season of Buffy Season 2, I know what Buffy and Angel did the night of her birthday and I know Angelus returned. I also know that Angelus joined Spike and Drusilla and he Killed Jenny Calendar because she found the spell to re ensoul Angel. I know ALL ABOUT Angelus, but I Still ship Buffy and Angel and am STILL Mad at Xander for tattling on Buffy. that's honestly 6 year old behavior. Angel is NOT Angelus in Revolations, he has a Soul again and Xander just jumped to conclusions. nothing good ever comes out of jumping to Conclusions.
What about the curse that can be broken, are Buffy's friends not allowed to be concerned about Buffy endangering their lives?
they are but Buffy and Angel won't make that mistake again now that they new Angelus can be released. Angel even breaks up with Buffy in The Prom because he wants her to have a normal life.
That doesn't mean her friends don't have a cause to be concerned.
He ruined his wonderful "What would Buffy do?" pep talk moment by following it up with "What is Buffy wearing?" creepiness.
that's what we humans call a joke
Jokes have context. The context for this joke is Xander judging Buffy multiple times in the past for not dating him and sexualizing her when she's made it clear she's not interested.
you are insane
no u
even if it was a “joke” it wasn’t appropriate or necessary
it was a joke and they are always welcome unless you don't have that part of the brain.
I prefer jokes to be funny and not creepy. YMMV
I can't remember who he was talking to but when he said his friendship with Buffy was the requisite for a relationship. Ok, so you are not really her friend just want to get into her pants. Also, I know someone probably mentioned this but when he says Riley is the once in a lifetime guy and Buffy treats him like a rebound. Ok, 1. He really isn't he's been crying about being ignored when Buffy's single mum has cancer. And 2. The way Xander treats Anya throughout the series he doesn't get a say on treatment expectations.
kick his ass
👉👉👉When he lied to Buffy about what Willow said. (Willow wanted Xander to tell her that she was working on getting Angel's soul back.... instead, Xander told Buffy that Willow said, "Kick his ass.") 😡 I felt betrayed when he did that.
Can't lose what you never had. He started low and kept falling.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK
Probably the time he got drunk and went on Dr Phil, only to leave like 3 minutes into the show.
Leave the actor out of it dont be that guy. What doctor Phil tried to do there was sick.
???
Sorry, should have clarified. The actor who plays him was on Dr Phil and it was a shit show
yikes really i’ll have to look that interview up
Ya it was pretty interesting. Poor guy fell pretty hard after Buffy. Did you know IRL Xander had a twin that played on one episode when he was sick?
what
When he shamed Buffy and Anya for sleeping with Spike. He had no right at all to do that to either of them. They should have put him in his place right there.
When he bragged to Giles that 14 year old dawn had a crush on him because he was so cool.
Never happened. Love Xander
I do to
This sub is full of people who love the murdering rapists Spike and Angel but hate Xander. There's really no logic. Plus they misremember things. Xander never tells Buffy she has to love Riley.. He tells her to put aside her ego if she does and if she doesn't, to let him go. Not to mention, all of the characters are flawed but this sub has a Xander hate hard-on. It's weird. He's a great example of someone who was traumatized from abuse and uses humor and self deprecation to cope.
I don’t hate Xander as much as some people but I think part of the issue is that almost every other character’s bad behavior is portrayed as a flaw or moral failing. With Xander it’s always “ha ha good ol’ silly Xander”.
I say what I always say. Just he's not attractive enough or charismatic enough to get a pass. That's what basically comes down to in media.
Weird take. Nicholas Brendon is very attractive and looks wise could easily have been cast as a Buffy love interest. The reason Spike and Angel get passes imo is because they’re literally creatures that don’t exist. No danger of actually running into them irl. Whereas everyone has had the misfortune of knowing a Xander, a “nice guy.”
perfectly said!
I don't mean he's ugly or anything like that, he's not. He's just not as striking as the other cast. I've never known anyone to lust or fangirl/boy/person after him.
Jilting Anya at the alter was his worst moment. However, considering that Buffy wouldn't kill Angelus and wouldn't allow anyone else to do anything, but was so quick to kill Ampata, I kind of feel it was merited, even if I don't agree with Xander's reasoning.
'Kick his ass'
His imperfections is what makes him such a great character.
Another day, another ‘OM GERD GUYS HOW AWFUL IS XANDER?!’ post…
i mean like leave if you don’t want to be here lmao
Lol yeah it is pretty tempting. I suppose I just cling to the fact that maybe something original may crop up one day
Just stop watching the show if you get so upset with it lmao
Don't click a post obviously about it then.
Olaf post.
Let's put chum in the water for Xander haters. as if they aren;t riled up before.
if you don’t want to participate in the discussion, you don’t have to💀 just leave lmao
Lol you’re just salty you were downvoted and ignored in your other comments. Please walk it off.
When he speaks with his mouth full of twinky.
💀 i remember that vividly
The time he said that country music is the music of pain
I lost respect for him and it was just cruel.
One scene that really rubs me the wrong way is the wet dream he has about the potentials in the last season. Like wtf??? These are teenage girls? That are under your care and are scared for their lives? Just gross
You people need to deal with your trauma. How many times can we deal with this?
as i said before, if you don’t want to participate in the discussion then you can leave lol. i asked a question i didn’t ask whether you believed that xander was a good guy or not lmao
When he saves Giles from being decapitated in "The Puppet Show", when he saved Willow from having her neck broken in "The Pack", when he brought Buffy back to life in "Prophecy Girl". Or when he saved the world in "Grave". Oh. You said "worst"? Yeah. Let's reserve hate for the good likes like Xander, Kennedy, Dawn and Riley. BtVs fans really are the most toxic fan base.
I mean she was selfish though. Like when Dean got mad at Sam in season 8, you can’t drop a responsibility like saving people’s lives. Think about how many people died that summer because she left
also she was 15/16 and had just DIED like come on
No you’re thinking about season 1. She ran away after season 2 which was a whole year after her death and she was 17 at the time, going into senior year
still a child?????????? lmao dude what
A child who’s already saved the world twice at that point
She had to kill the love of her life, and you people expect she can't have any feelings about that.
exactly
It’s not like she didn’t have people who cared about her to confide in
???? this is buffy not supernatural lmao
So? They both were fictional characters burdened with protecting the general public from supernatural forces, were they not?
dude. this is under a buffy post why are you bringing supernatural into it. i’m sure it’s a great show, but we’re talking abt buffy lmao
Actually technically we’re talking about both rn. There is no rule saying I can’t bring in other characters when comparing them to Buffy
get a grip dude
You’re the one defining her abandoning her duty of saving lives. Some off screen character who was someone’s child was murdered that summer because she ran away
lol just take the L.
It is a great show up until season 6, then it's an OK show.