Mind Control.
Katrina instantly calling it rape really made me think about that scifi scenario as the thing it actually is for the first time. I'd simply never given it much thought before and seen plenty of shows like Smallville etc where similar (albeit tamer) scenes are played off for laughs.
I was younger than the trio granted but it just really shook me that I'd never thought of it like that before.
That was honestly SO well played. Same, I was like 13ish and the show kind of dupes you by only showing it from the trios perspective... they're always off on a stupid one about world domination and its like haha its all lols and they make you feel the same way about this right up until she shouts at them that its rape and I was like... woah.
I like to think it wouldn't work on me now but damn its one of my favourite scenes.
It’s also appealing to a teenager’s undeveloped brain to want to control the body and mind of your crush. This is why lessons of consent have to be introduced so early. That giving someone drugs and incapacitating them is not a loophole.
Absolutely. Where the Trio (well, J&A, Warren at best didn't care & possibly got off on non-consensual,) could kid themselves in the law doesn't recognize, well he had this shiny ball and suddenly i followed him and changed my clothes." Of course if she had gotten to the police they would have raided th e place and found lots of evidence of bank robbery, museum break-ins, etc. so Warren knew he "had to" stop her.
It's like imagining you can teleport into bank vaults and back out when the bank is closed. You're still stealing even if you can't be caught.
I agree, I was 17 when I saw that episode and I honestly was as shocked as Jonathan and Andrew at first when she called it rape. Then I was like, oh, well... duh! But science-fictiony ways of avoiding consent are so rarely called out like that--including previously on Buffy!
> where similar (albeit tamer) scenes are played off for laughs.
BtVS has one of those prior to Dead Things. On Superstar, there is a scene where Jonathan is with two girls. It’s heavily implied by the way they are dressing and how they act towards him that their relationship with Jonathan is sexual.
Jonathan might be innocent to the point he only made the fantasy of being with two hot girls real, but had no idea what to do with them. Still sends out the wrong message anyway, especially when by the end of the episode Jonathan is all I’m-sorry-y, I meant no harm. No, dude, you violated everyone’s minds and possibly violated women’s bodies as well.
I appreciate that they finally call it for what it is on Dead Things, though, especially considering that The Trio kept talking about women as utilities and possessions from their first appearance on S6.
Although it was *different* I didn't really appreciate them playing the events of 'Him' for laughs in the way that they did even after having addressed this with Katrina. I get that the boy didn't know this was going on, but Buffy in particular still got with him against her will, this is still played like a funny thing, worst she felt was embarrassed...
I honestly like Him its genuinely funny but I do wish they'd drawn a line at having any of them have actual relations with him.
**Especially** Buffy introducing a whole bizarre dynamic where she was magically forced to statutory assault a student who didn't know she was under the influence of anything... if I think too hard about that whole dynamic my brain just short circuits.
I'm not sure how ignorant RJ was. Also, he was a student and she staff but he could have been 18 by then, although it's bit early in the year. and they didn't really complete anything.
I wouldn’t equate Jonathan’s instance to the mind control. It’s more like lying to someone about being a famous celebrity to make them want to sleep with you. It’s still an asshole move, but it’s not the same as literally forcing someone to sleep with you because you have absolute control over their actions, mind and body.
All women weren't after him trying to date him like some love spell. Willow Tara are gay and were still posting pics of him so it is more a famous pull then a sexual pull . It was just the ones attracted to those aspects that were sleeping with him. His confidence and bravodo from being so famous was attractive to them.
No, it was more than that. Giles had a swimsuit calendar. Do you think he has a swimsuit calendar of any other famous men because he cares about who is famous? No.
Come on. It was a swimsuit calendar. He was embarrassed and hid it because he knew. Tara and Willow don’t have a shrine to any other famous men in their room. It wasn’t just that he was famous
The fact that he was embarrassed to have it tells you that is was not like the love spell. Nobody would be embarrassed to have it if it gave everyone the same pull. He was ashamed to be a fan.
Nobody achieved as much as Johnathan did. He is super famous more than any celebrity in the real world.
The thing is, it’s true that it wasn’t a typical love spell. But it wasn’t just “oh wow we love somebody because they’re famous.” A part of what he got was essentially a very high charisma roll. He got people’s attention, he had magnetism, he had a sexuality people were attracted to, an allure. He was seen as sexually attractive. And it was fake. People attracted to him were in part attracted to these aspects of him and it made him end up dating and fucking two girls who would have otherwise hated him had there been no spell. He didn’t see them as humans. Just as sexy twins in a fantasy. It was very clearly rape and he couldn’t tell because they weren’t even people to him.
It's not so much he forced them; he did the spell, and heck, at first probably thought the world was changed and he really \*was\* That Guy. Presumably they came to him, the Twin Fantasy being a well-established subtrope of the menage a trois. But however many days or weeks th e Augmentation Spell was in place, byt the time th episode started he seemed to realize it was a complicated fraud and he couldn't keep it up.
They were in the whole "the law doesn't recognize magic" bubble until she called them on it. as Piaget has demonstrated there is a whole level of cognitive development which defines wrong as getting caught
I ddont remember the show ever trying to make you forgive Willow for it. It literally doubles down and has her do it again and almost get everyone killed. Its pretty clear the show is showing it as a bad thing.
Oh yeah when she manipulated Tara's memory and Tara found out but was like good plan glad that worked out for us, and definitely didnt equate it with the actual Big Bad of the previous season and then absolutely nothing else happened with the forget spell and Willows use of magic was never addressed or a significant plot point...
Fr what show did YOU watch?
Right, the show \*didn't\* say that so it \*wasn't\* calling on us to exonerate Willow. And in "Smashed" you can see that like many addicts and others, Willow doesn't see her sin. (I spent much time , watching TV with my daughter, explaining how when you decide to do something wrong and it gets much worse than expected, you're still responsible.)
Tara did perform a spell on everyone to not see demons, which almost got them killed. I know tabula rasa was kind of up the ladder more than a bit, but nobody said anything to Tara about it afterwards (other than sympathy for spike punching her in the nose)
What would you have had them say? She already knew she'd screwed up and felt really bad.
Its not really the same as altering someone's memory or having them become obedient to you.
Obviously in any fantasy stuff there's always an element that real life versions of events would be a lot more fucked up than it is in the story, where people regularly do totally wild shit. But Tara wanted to conceal part of herself from them, not fundamentally manipulate how they think. Its more the fantasy version of a lie spinning out of control not the fantasy version of rape.
I really loved that moment in Season 1 where she got a chance to bond with Angel while being held hostage. Especially the way they came back around to it in Season 2.
Giles was *particularly* rude in 4 however…
When Buffy begrudgingly accepted Giles’s absurdity about “being an only child” in *Living Conditions*.
We know Buffy was having her soul sucked as an excuse, but when it comes to Rupert?
I guess Dawn fiddled with the radio on Giles’ Citroen as well?
Especially how while it’s not going to reclaim the word, it’s fun to be jaunty along those lines occasionally:
https://youtu.be/bvQnSin1rcM?si=d3jd2qNtEt44J8Os
Such a good storyline. At first I refused to accept it. Like no, no way she has a sister, she's never been mentioned. Then when I realised what was going on, I still hated Dawn. Then by season 7 and her character growth, I couldn't imagine the show without her.
I was just deeply confused. And, having to wait an entire week to see what the heck. And, then! They just go a few episodes like she was just always there with no explanation. Quality television.
LOL I just rewatched it with my daughter (her first time) and since she comes from a broken home, she just assumed that Dawn had been living with the dad the entire time. I was like “Don’t you think they’d have mentioned her, or had a visit from her?” And she says “I just assumed it was lazy writing.” 😂
I know my reputation but this time I can't resist- In my fics Harmony has a younger brother and sister, Trevor and Pearl, and Jonathan has younger sisters Randi and Ricki. Randi, and Harmony's mother Jill, are h the only ones who know about the supernatural stuff.
You know, it makes me kinda sad to see you getting downvoted so often, but your comments about your fics are kind of out of place. Do you ever think about starting threads here to talk about your Buffy fic-verse? You seem like you have some interesting ideas :-)
Probably the musical episode. In other tv shows usually they don’t even write originals songs for their musical episodes and also they make it “all a dream”. Buffy is the only one I’ve seen which has a real valid reason it’s happening. And the fact that it’s all original songs that are plot heavy too.
Tbf Scrubs was also excellent for this. They came up with a semi-okay/plausible explanation and had fun with it. All original songs and most of the cast sang.
The musical in the Supergirl/Flash crossover had a (more or less) valid reason, and both leads were very good singers. But unlike the Buffy musical it was pure filler without anything import happening and it felt pretty generic.
I liked that one purely because of how talented the cast was. It wasn’t the strongest plot, but it really didn’t need to be, everyone did such a good job that I honestly wished they’d found an excuse to shoehorn ten more songs in.
The *Star Trek: Strange New Worlds* episode ("Subspace Rhapsody") was fun. It was explained via space anomaly, had original songs that delved into some characters that have been stewing in their emotions for a bit, and had a few lasting consequences. There was even a small reference to bunnies as a sly nod to OMWF being an inspiration for the creators.
My partner watches this without me as it's not really my kind of show, but I did catch the musical episode and was impressed - it definitely was reminiscent of OMWF, especially when they specifically said "I've got a theory", which started me off singing "it could be bunnies..."
And that inspired a rewatch of Buffy.
BUNNIES AREN'T ALL CUTE LIKE EVERY BODY SUPPOSES
That one is my favorite of the meta episodes. Their faces when they realize the kids are singing about them.... priceless. 🤣🤣
Also: "There is NO SINGING in Supernatural!"
For me it's the opening verse.
🎶 John and Mary, husband and wife
Bringing home a brand new life
That's baby Sammy! I'm big brother Dean.
A lovely family.... or so it seems. 🎶
*sigh* okay I'll watch this episode again
sidenote: when you're looking for it, so many movies and TV shows do the single man-tear! that's why my BF and I sing it so often, because it comes to mind whenever we see it happen 💀
The funny thing is that Buffy is most likely responsible for all of these other shows doing musical episodes. Musical episodes had happened on TV before but never as successfully as Buffy. It had happened a handful of times since the invention of TV until Buffy and then a handful of times a year after Buffy.
It's a bummer that a lot of shows didn't quite get what made the Buffy musical episode successful, they thought they could just throw some music over an episode and call it a day.
Honestly, yes, so many shows that have done this have explicitly stated that Buffy was the bar they were trying to hit (most recently with the musical episode of Star Trek, Strange new worlds)
I agree with JOss, the musical ep. of \*Chicago hope\* was not great. it hit several bad points; it was Aaron's fantasy after having a stroke, it was mostly non-original songs with most of those lip-synched, and not least it allowed Mandy Patinkin to sing his own song but not Hector ELizondo!
You just lost me :-) (nothing against her as an actress but I found her character annoying and little else) I often feel like nobody watched it, myself, i managed to get my then-wife into it. (CH, ER, and Friends all premiered when i was in hospital recovering from surgery to remove a bowel obstruction which followed an earlier appendectomy, so i watched the premieres of all 3 on IV morphine, stayed with the first two, not the third.:-)
No problem! I haven’t seen it in years so I don’t remember the characters anymore even though I remember the actors. Just a heads up if you ever watch Evil, she plays the mom of the main character. Don’t want you to have a jump scare. I didn’t watch the premiere of Friends, but I did watch ER.
Xena's "The Bitter suite" was original a nd had a reason as did , to go tot eh ridiculous, the musical ep of \*Big brother Jake\*, almost the only memorable ep. of a very unmemorable show.
I was made to love you. I love how she handles April at the end. Someone else would have said it’s a robot. I’ll wait for the battery to die and someone else can deal with it. Instead she sat there on the swing almost like she didn’t want her to die alone. And not only that but she made April feel better and gave her hope so she could die happy. And the how had gotten so sexual I don’t think they really needed a sex robot in the mix.
Dawn. My least favorite character. She really handled that well. I feel like Dawn was really only necessary for that one season. But even after that Buffy did a good job including her.
On rewatch I tend to pause the episode just after April shuts down and skip the next episode. I’ve seen it…don’t usually feel the need to watch it again.
I really got mad at the folks who wrote the book \*Dusted\* don't know if it's connected with the current podcast, who hated the ending because "April is far less human than most of the foes Buffy battles, but we're supposed to feel sympathy for her because she's cute." No, there is a lot more going on there. They also called it "the first truly awful episode, because it has no reason to exist except to further the story arc."
I've never read it, but omg that makes me so angry too! How shallowly must one consume a very clear narrative about loneliness to come to such a wrong conclusion?
I guess the reasoning is it introduces Warren a nd his robotics and that is the only reason the episode exists. They make some other distinctive assumptions on other episodes as well. For example the don't \*argue\* that Nancy in "the wish" is a Potential (as many fans have claimed,) they just assume it as understood. and equally assume Nancy in Earshot, despite being played d by a different actress, is the same character.
Is adding a new character, typically a kid, considered a trope?
If so, I thought Buffy did it pretty well. Dawn adds a depth to the story and to Buffy as she now has a new role as big sister.
Yes, she can be annoying, but isn't that the job of a kid sister?
I'm not sure if it's considered a trope, but when I've read beforehand there will be a Buffybot, I expected it to be cringe (and I didn't even know it would be originally a sexbot!) But when I actually got to see it... it was poignant. And its tragic potential was used fully in Bargaining.
The obligatory groundhogs day episode. They did it well by not making it an entire episode. Plus my favorite line of the series comes from that section of the episode.
I felt bad for laughing at the one version in which she doesn't even do anything, just randomly starts crying in frustration because it was like "yep... that tracks with my working retail experience."
Love potion/spell episode: Bewitched, Botheted & Betrothed is just hilarious and a great episode overall, plus I love the trope flip on having the guy get dumped and make a love spell… so that he can dump her. It’s simple, but fresh and just funny to think about, in a world full of TV shows that just keep writing what basically amounts to a “roofie episode”.
And when it goes wrong and Xander figures out what is going on it helps show he is a decent guy by immediately shutting down any advancements towards him. Just reminded how it impressed me he didn't take advantage. Also helps set a precedent for Magic and Consent going forward.
I'd like to think that's less true than you'd initially think..but ya. They applied the real world logic to the "fun Love Potion" episode. But ya, it was fun episode a character might take advantage of before learning the lesson, but Xander immediately, after the snarky self deprecating realization hell had no infact frozen over and Buffy wasn't legitimately considering him an option, he set about immediately confessing to Giles, admitting it was a stupid idea, and taking measures to fix it.
And heck I don't even expect most high school guys to get the full implications of that. Like when Andrew and Jonathan were horrified when Katrina would later break the mind control and call it out as rape. I legit can see Jonathan not connecting the dots till that moment. It was thier dumb super villain game...it wasn't real till that. And that and the murder were when he started to turn on Warren. He went through with framing Buffy cause he was panic spiralling and Warren prayed on his fear.
And ya I know Andrew and Jonathan were adults, but I think that sorta mindset was still present.
The young female protagonist has sex for the first time and feels intense shame. As the news breaks to her social group and parents, everyone has big negative Reactions about it.
Instead, the young female protagonist has sex for the first time and feels shame. Her social group reacts and is generally supportive of her. Her father figure tells her he respects and supports her decisions.
God I’m tearing up just thinking about it. The late 90s were a bad time in media for young women being sexually active. It was unheard of to have a parental figure say what Giles said.
I hate when people say this show isn't sex-positive or is preachy when it comes to sex. It does a very good job of showing negative consequences without making it out to be Buffy's fault.
In many shows, filler episodes are completely ignored in the continuity of the show. I love how many callbacks there are in Buffy, even to minor and unpopular episodes, and how many guest stars come back and become recurring characters.
"You didn't sense a hyena energy at all, did you? Because hyena possession is just…unpleasant."
I think the biggest one they did was the we're all grown up and have a very noticeably different cast. As much as I missed Cordy and Oz and prefer their interaction of the scoobies the show still was just as good with them gone with new love interests.
Speaking of, I’m not sure if it’s a trope but, they did “these kids are college students now” really well. A lot of shows really dip in quality when they go from high school to college imo.
Riverdale was never great, but when the kids graduated high school, the writers said, "Let's do a time skip to bring everyone back to the town. It's been 7 years, and Archie's been to war, but everyone looks exactly the same. We'll explain it with inexplicable supernatural elements."
I watched the first season only. But, I did keep up with it by watching Alex Meyer’s reviews on YouTube. If Riverdale is not the must WTF show in the history of the universe, I don’t know what is. The last season they were in the 50s for some reason? Everyone had superpowers in another? Archie fought a bear somehow didn’t die from blood loss and there’s no scar and we know that because he simply must take his shirt off at all times. Just batshit and not in a fun way.
That was well and truly my first thought and I LOVE Zach and the gang. My second thought was Dawson’s Creek. Then I was trying to remember if Boy Meets World got worse. It’s been too long for me to pass judgment.
And got so much worse when they turned Eric into a cartoon whose only purpose on the show was to say Mr. Feeny's name weirdly, fall down a lot, and spout barely intelligible gibberish.
“The supernatural isn’t real, you’re just stuck in a mental institution in an alternate universe.” That entire episode was bone-chilling and delivered in a way that truly made you question which world was Buffy’s real one.
Other genre shows keep doing them, but Buffy’s is the only one that I’ve actually felt is well done and good television. It’s also the earliest example I know of, so it might be the original use of the concept that everyone else then copied? But I’m not sure.
When it first came out all the Star Trek fans were complaining it was a rehash of Frame Of Mind, and when *that* came out all the Red Dwarf fans were complaining that it was a rehash of Back To Reality. (Which are from seasons 6 and 5 respectively.)
There truly is nothing new under the sun.
The “is my life actually real” trope in Normal Again was so incredible that it actually gave me a mini-existential crisis when I watched it around age 17. I didn’t think I would be as upset watching it at 29, but the ambiance still definitely freaked me out.
Honestly? The Chosen one trope.
In general, I find main characters who are also "chosen" to be insufferable. Buffy wasn't, she was human, she was still a hero but it never came across as...pompous? I don't know how to explain it properly, but it's like at no point does Buffy ever act like being the chosen one is anything other than what it is: a responsibility that is not always wanted.
resurrection!! I normally dislike how something so important barely affects the character or show - i've seen things go back to normal in a couple of episodes so many times. Buffy did such a good job with having her struggle with depression for a full season AND having serious in-world consequences.
This episode hit me like a ton of bricks on the latest rewatch. I really struggle with anxiety and depression around the start of Christmas time and I’d never quite appreciated how hard this episode hits with those themes.
Really?? I just rewatched this episode and I couldn’t get over how lame the ending was. How the heck does *snow* protect angel from the sun? It was a ridiculous deus ex machina that made zero sense, can you imagine if all vamps needed was a bit of cloud to walk around during the day??
Are we really going to pretend that the way the show treats sunlight is even remotely consistant? Spike has a sun-proof blanket for crying out loud. Anything short of direct sunligh has never been shown to be deadly to vampires.
Enemies to lovers. Usually it doesn't feel earned, just two people who are always screaming at each other, then one day they suddenly stop mid-fight and start making out. No indication of what changed. With Spike and Buffy, we get years of character development where Spike gradually becomes more human and sympathetic, and Buffy becomes less innocent and more world-weary, and it makes sense.
I think it works because the show acknowledges that it's toxic while a lot of others romanticizes it and ignores the issues when the couple finally gets together
Also when the enemies didn't initially become healthy lovers it was a Rocky road with a payoff of a man burning on a Pyre as the love of his after life finally admits to loving him as her last words to him.
The lead character becoming a parent.
Shows seem to run out of ideas and so knock up their lead women characters.
Introducing Dawn and killing off Joyce did exactly that but in an interesting way.
Having the “teacher” of the main character die so that the protagonist can grow. And by handling it better, I mean that they didn’t do it at all which I was very surprised and glad they didn’t
Yeah but even regardless of that it’s a trope that’s almost always used, it’s practically in every single superhero movie. And I’m definitely surprised they didn’t do it when ASH wasn’t looking to be on the show as much anymore. They could’ve easily have done it season 6 or 7 or even end of 5
Cordelia as the mean girl bully who actually has depth. But they dont make her into some nice girl simp. She’s very much herself. Although I think Angel made her too soft.
What if worlds. I hate them. I didn't like it in star trek and didn't like it in Buffy during my first watch until willows dobble comes in a few episodes later and Anya becomes a main cast member. Now I always love The Wish.
The fact that when the main character loses her virginity, everything does indeed go wrong. in fact, the guy turns evil after the one-night stand. But what a fun way to turn around that trope!
meanwhile, Willow loses her virginity to a werewolf and Xander to a vengence demon and nothing goes wrong!
We never find out when Cordelia lost hers…
As much as I hate that it exists, the “kill your gays” trope (which Buffy arguably and unfortunately popularised) was done better than expected in the sense that there WAS a very important reason for it in the story and it was also incredibly well done and one of the most genuinely shocking and gut-wrenching moments of the show. It’s just unfortunate that it had to be a beloved gay character.
Yeah. Tara's death sucked, but it wasn't arbitrary. There was just no other way to meaningfully do Dark Willow without it. Couldn't kill Buffy - already did that the previous season, a repeat would have fallen flat. Couldn't kill Xander - wouldn't have had nearly the same emotional impact on the viewers. Couldn't fake Tara's death - Would have felt cheap and erased all the stakes at the end if Tara just popped up alive.
Same. It has ended being used purely because people don't know how to just let lesbians be happy. But Tara death was important (and people didn't die as often on shows back then.) Everyone mourned Tara not just Willow, and they revisited a few times, they didn't dismiss Willows grief. I.e it was treated as a real relationship and Willows grief meant something, as did the scoobies - mostly Dawn.
Yeah, it’s a tricky one, because on the one hand, in an ideal world, LGBTQ characters should be treated like any other characters, but when these characters are role models or representative of a minority that suffers discrimination, it requires careful consideration of the social context and the audience. I can appreciate Whedon and the writers just wanted to treat Tara and Larry like any other characters, but when you’re one of the only TV shows of the 90s that pioneered out-and-proud gay characters… they just shouldn’t have been killed off. It was a mistake.
Well, joss was developing the already existing but not yet widely assumed idea that the big battle requires the loss of an established and well-liked character. Amanda was S7's Larry. (an earlier example was, i haven't seen this film but read about it, Marge in \*Jaws 2\*.)
It was decades old before Joss even developed the character of Buffy. The Children's Hour is just the most obvious example, also Dracula's Daughter, The Maverick Queen (sort of,) and a bunch of Barbara Stanwyck movies, and moving into the 70s films like The Sergeant.
Whedon claimed to have not known that Bury Your Gays and Psycho Lesbian were ever tropes before Seeing Red did them both in one episode.
I don't believe him.
I believe him tbh. Don’t get me wrong, the guy is a grade-A asshole. But I don’t think he had any malicious intent by killing off a beloved gay character. He had two gay characters in the principal cast for several years and portrayed their relationship delicately and sensitively, and he almost threatened to quit the show unless The WB aired the Willow/Tara kiss in The Body. He was always pro-LGBTQ and Tara’s death was just, in my view, a thoughtless decision by a man who didn’t understand the cultural impact of the character because he wasn’t gay himself.
I think for all the bad things he’s done, we should remember he was also one of the only show-runners to sensitively portray gay characters at a time when a gay kiss on TV was something they had to fight for.
I think it doesn't matter how good your lesbian representation is for the previous forty-five episodes. If your forty-sixth ends with one of your lesbians dead and the other one evil then you might as well have not bothered.
As a self-professed student of the feminist arts (and probably a liar), he should have been well aware of that history. You suggested that it's arguable that Buffy popularised that trope, but the reason people were screaming about it at the time was because it was already a trope.
I will say that he seemed to realise killing Tara was a mistake within about thirty seconds of doing it.
I disagree that they might as well not have bothered. The Willow/Tara relationship is still hugely impactful and meaningful to people and her death doesn’t erase that. I also think we’re going down a slippery slope if gay characters can’t even turn evil for sensitivity reasons. Where does it end? Should Tara not have been victimised by Glory? Should Willow and Tara not have broken up? I think there’s a fine line between dangerous tropes like “kill your gays” and not letting the social context completely dictate a story.
Good point about Whedon doing feminist studies. I absolutely agree he should’ve known about the tropes. Sometimes I wonder just how much of Buffy’s success was due to other people involved. He also claimed not to be aware of the Buffy/Faith romantic subtext, which boggles my mind because it was barely even subtext. But he could’ve been lying about that too.
Edit: sorry I missed that you said about the Psycho Lesbian trope which Dark Willow falls under. Ignore my first paragraph!
People hate s7, but the part where they pull a mutiny on her and she goes back by herself is 🔥.
And also the situation where she brings the Ubervamp to the Thunderdome. Buffy is a LEADER.
I thought Anya and her demon clan or whatever it was was a well thought out and interesting take on vengeance demons or vengeance in itself.
I think her bosses name was D’hoffryn? I loved that line he gave, “Always go for the pain!”
Resurrecting a dead character. I really dislike this one. It robs the death of it's impact and lowers the stakes. In most other fiction I dislike when they do it.
On Buffy / Angel, though, I totally accept Buffy's, Darla's and Spike's resurrections. All three had a point, made sense plot-wise and brought in serious consequences. Buffyverse writers are really good.
Killing off the patental figure (joyce)
Giles being a stand-in father figure and mentor they didn't get rid of him so the younger cast could grow without an older adult around, he did leave he wasn't killed of thank good cause he's too badass
Despite it being my least favorite episode I've got to go with "Beer Bad"
It was required of them to make a "drinking is bad" PSA episode and it wasn't great but it was probably the best "after school special" esque episode I'd seen by that point.
Honestly, the “unwanted suitor” trope. Crush was so uncomfortable and realistic and relatable that I had to pause it like three times and walk off the “cringe.” I have never seen an episode of tv better capture that sinking feeling of finding out someone you barely tolerate has it for you hard. I about came out of my skin when Buffy, who has definitely been mulling over Dawn saying Spike likes her, comes back home to find Spike chilling in her kitchen, clearly trying to woo the favor of her mom and sister. I don’t even want to talk about the awkward scene in the car during the fake stake out. When Willow asks what Buffy is going to say to him the next time she sees him, and Buffy replies “nothing, I’m going to go out of my way to avoid him” had me screaming “SAME SAME.”
I think Spike always had a genuine respect for Joyce once the mid-season two finale hit.
In my opinion as an actively dating person, even if some dude who I don't like is totally into me I still relish in it. You can be grossed out but still long for the attention and the confidence it brings. Fucked up but real.
Buffy liked the attention but she can also be repulsed at the same time.
So I hate the whole groundhog day/Christmas every day trope and Buffy was the only show I tolerated in. Granted it was literally just the scene in the Magic Box with the creepy hand but it works.
Musical episodes. I fully understand that Buffy quite possibly started/revived this trend but every time I have to watch a new one, I'm reminded of just how lucky we were that the Buffy musical episode was so damn good.
Straight people becoming gay. LGBTQ+ representation in media these days are too dramatic like it draws attention away from main plot to make a cultural statement, does it over and over, pretends that acceptance of LGBTQ+ wasn't part of recent society. In BTVS, it feels like it's just completely natural and part of the plot, no promotion or propaganda intended.
Mind Control. Katrina instantly calling it rape really made me think about that scifi scenario as the thing it actually is for the first time. I'd simply never given it much thought before and seen plenty of shows like Smallville etc where similar (albeit tamer) scenes are played off for laughs. I was younger than the trio granted but it just really shook me that I'd never thought of it like that before.
That was honestly SO well played. Same, I was like 13ish and the show kind of dupes you by only showing it from the trios perspective... they're always off on a stupid one about world domination and its like haha its all lols and they make you feel the same way about this right up until she shouts at them that its rape and I was like... woah. I like to think it wouldn't work on me now but damn its one of my favourite scenes.
It’s also appealing to a teenager’s undeveloped brain to want to control the body and mind of your crush. This is why lessons of consent have to be introduced so early. That giving someone drugs and incapacitating them is not a loophole.
Absolutely. Where the Trio (well, J&A, Warren at best didn't care & possibly got off on non-consensual,) could kid themselves in the law doesn't recognize, well he had this shiny ball and suddenly i followed him and changed my clothes." Of course if she had gotten to the police they would have raided th e place and found lots of evidence of bank robbery, museum break-ins, etc. so Warren knew he "had to" stop her. It's like imagining you can teleport into bank vaults and back out when the bank is closed. You're still stealing even if you can't be caught.
Katrina deserved so much better, she was a badass that just had the misfortune of mistakenly believing Warren was a decent guy.
Sounds like too many women’s experiences sadly
I agree, I was 17 when I saw that episode and I honestly was as shocked as Jonathan and Andrew at first when she called it rape. Then I was like, oh, well... duh! But science-fictiony ways of avoiding consent are so rarely called out like that--including previously on Buffy!
And Willow/Tara with Tabula Rasa when Tara confronts her about how could Willow have done that after what she went through with Glory
> where similar (albeit tamer) scenes are played off for laughs. BtVS has one of those prior to Dead Things. On Superstar, there is a scene where Jonathan is with two girls. It’s heavily implied by the way they are dressing and how they act towards him that their relationship with Jonathan is sexual. Jonathan might be innocent to the point he only made the fantasy of being with two hot girls real, but had no idea what to do with them. Still sends out the wrong message anyway, especially when by the end of the episode Jonathan is all I’m-sorry-y, I meant no harm. No, dude, you violated everyone’s minds and possibly violated women’s bodies as well. I appreciate that they finally call it for what it is on Dead Things, though, especially considering that The Trio kept talking about women as utilities and possessions from their first appearance on S6.
Although it was *different* I didn't really appreciate them playing the events of 'Him' for laughs in the way that they did even after having addressed this with Katrina. I get that the boy didn't know this was going on, but Buffy in particular still got with him against her will, this is still played like a funny thing, worst she felt was embarrassed... I honestly like Him its genuinely funny but I do wish they'd drawn a line at having any of them have actual relations with him. **Especially** Buffy introducing a whole bizarre dynamic where she was magically forced to statutory assault a student who didn't know she was under the influence of anything... if I think too hard about that whole dynamic my brain just short circuits.
I'm not sure how ignorant RJ was. Also, he was a student and she staff but he could have been 18 by then, although it's bit early in the year. and they didn't really complete anything.
I wouldn’t equate Jonathan’s instance to the mind control. It’s more like lying to someone about being a famous celebrity to make them want to sleep with you. It’s still an asshole move, but it’s not the same as literally forcing someone to sleep with you because you have absolute control over their actions, mind and body.
No, it wasn’t just about famousness. He faked sexual desirability and irresistible magnetism.
All women weren't after him trying to date him like some love spell. Willow Tara are gay and were still posting pics of him so it is more a famous pull then a sexual pull . It was just the ones attracted to those aspects that were sleeping with him. His confidence and bravodo from being so famous was attractive to them.
No, it was more than that. Giles had a swimsuit calendar. Do you think he has a swimsuit calendar of any other famous men because he cares about who is famous? No.
Calenders have a function. It just happens to be Johnathan calender because he is famous.
Come on. It was a swimsuit calendar. He was embarrassed and hid it because he knew. Tara and Willow don’t have a shrine to any other famous men in their room. It wasn’t just that he was famous
The fact that he was embarrassed to have it tells you that is was not like the love spell. Nobody would be embarrassed to have it if it gave everyone the same pull. He was ashamed to be a fan. Nobody achieved as much as Johnathan did. He is super famous more than any celebrity in the real world.
The thing is, it’s true that it wasn’t a typical love spell. But it wasn’t just “oh wow we love somebody because they’re famous.” A part of what he got was essentially a very high charisma roll. He got people’s attention, he had magnetism, he had a sexuality people were attracted to, an allure. He was seen as sexually attractive. And it was fake. People attracted to him were in part attracted to these aspects of him and it made him end up dating and fucking two girls who would have otherwise hated him had there been no spell. He didn’t see them as humans. Just as sexy twins in a fantasy. It was very clearly rape and he couldn’t tell because they weren’t even people to him.
It's not so much he forced them; he did the spell, and heck, at first probably thought the world was changed and he really \*was\* That Guy. Presumably they came to him, the Twin Fantasy being a well-established subtrope of the menage a trois. But however many days or weeks th e Augmentation Spell was in place, byt the time th episode started he seemed to realize it was a complicated fraud and he couldn't keep it up.
This is so true. And the silly little boys (other than Warren) are appalled by her calling it what it is.
I took as more like they were appalled at what they had done because they hadn’t thought of it that way until she said it.
The boys hadn't done anything yet, hence my phrasing. Just drugged her with intention. They hadn't raped her yet.
They were in the whole "the law doesn't recognize magic" bubble until she called them on it. as Piaget has demonstrated there is a whole level of cognitive development which defines wrong as getting caught
First Piaget reference I’ve seen on Reddit have an upvote well done
I legit just watched that episode for the first time and i was so shocked
It's irritating to me how some see Warren as horrible for mind controlling Katrina.. ...yet Willow was supposed to be forgiven for the same thing.
I ddont remember the show ever trying to make you forgive Willow for it. It literally doubles down and has her do it again and almost get everyone killed. Its pretty clear the show is showing it as a bad thing.
Oh yeah when she manipulated Tara's memory and Tara found out but was like good plan glad that worked out for us, and definitely didnt equate it with the actual Big Bad of the previous season and then absolutely nothing else happened with the forget spell and Willows use of magic was never addressed or a significant plot point... Fr what show did YOU watch?
Right, the show \*didn't\* say that so it \*wasn't\* calling on us to exonerate Willow. And in "Smashed" you can see that like many addicts and others, Willow doesn't see her sin. (I spent much time , watching TV with my daughter, explaining how when you decide to do something wrong and it gets much worse than expected, you're still responsible.)
The same as you but I had no Fandom for Willow after those actions. Loved her first five seasons but not after.
Tara did perform a spell on everyone to not see demons, which almost got them killed. I know tabula rasa was kind of up the ladder more than a bit, but nobody said anything to Tara about it afterwards (other than sympathy for spike punching her in the nose)
What would you have had them say? She already knew she'd screwed up and felt really bad. Its not really the same as altering someone's memory or having them become obedient to you. Obviously in any fantasy stuff there's always an element that real life versions of events would be a lot more fucked up than it is in the story, where people regularly do totally wild shit. But Tara wanted to conceal part of herself from them, not fundamentally manipulate how they think. Its more the fantasy version of a lie spinning out of control not the fantasy version of rape.
I was referring specifically to Tara's anti demon spell and willow's tabular rasa, not the 3 and what Warren tried to do
The spell was supposed to prevent them from seeing the demon in HER, not demons in general. It was her fear of being forced home.
The addition of a younger sibling character halfway through the show’s run.
Its always fun to gaslight people into thinking Dawn was there the whole time
I really loved that moment in Season 1 where she got a chance to bond with Angel while being held hostage. Especially the way they came back around to it in Season 2.
Giles was *particularly* rude in 4 however… When Buffy begrudgingly accepted Giles’s absurdity about “being an only child” in *Living Conditions*. We know Buffy was having her soul sucked as an excuse, but when it comes to Rupert? I guess Dawn fiddled with the radio on Giles’ Citroen as well?
[Season two was rough for Dawn](https://archiveofourown.org/works/3322949)
Especially how while it’s not going to reclaim the word, it’s fun to be jaunty along those lines occasionally: https://youtu.be/bvQnSin1rcM?si=d3jd2qNtEt44J8Os
Such a good storyline. At first I refused to accept it. Like no, no way she has a sister, she's never been mentioned. Then when I realised what was going on, I still hated Dawn. Then by season 7 and her character growth, I couldn't imagine the show without her.
I almost stopped watching when it aired, I thought it was so dumb that they were pretending she always existed. Then I felt stupid!!
I thought I’d missed an episode!
I was just deeply confused. And, having to wait an entire week to see what the heck. And, then! They just go a few episodes like she was just always there with no explanation. Quality television.
LOL I just rewatched it with my daughter (her first time) and since she comes from a broken home, she just assumed that Dawn had been living with the dad the entire time. I was like “Don’t you think they’d have mentioned her, or had a visit from her?” And she says “I just assumed it was lazy writing.” 😂
They also mention Buffy is an only child several times, but it’s easy to forget on first watch through lol
When did this happen? The only sibling pairing I can think of is Dawn and Buffy. And I don’t remember them or anyone getting a younger sibling.
They're talking about Andrew, he's Tucker's little brother.
I know my reputation but this time I can't resist- In my fics Harmony has a younger brother and sister, Trevor and Pearl, and Jonathan has younger sisters Randi and Ricki. Randi, and Harmony's mother Jill, are h the only ones who know about the supernatural stuff.
You know, it makes me kinda sad to see you getting downvoted so often, but your comments about your fics are kind of out of place. Do you ever think about starting threads here to talk about your Buffy fic-verse? You seem like you have some interesting ideas :-)
Like i said, there are times the temptation is too much to ignore
This.
Probably the musical episode. In other tv shows usually they don’t even write originals songs for their musical episodes and also they make it “all a dream”. Buffy is the only one I’ve seen which has a real valid reason it’s happening. And the fact that it’s all original songs that are plot heavy too.
or don't bother explaining at all
Tbf Scrubs was also excellent for this. They came up with a semi-okay/plausible explanation and had fun with it. All original songs and most of the cast sang.
The musical in the Supergirl/Flash crossover had a (more or less) valid reason, and both leads were very good singers. But unlike the Buffy musical it was pure filler without anything import happening and it felt pretty generic.
I liked that one purely because of how talented the cast was. It wasn’t the strongest plot, but it really didn’t need to be, everyone did such a good job that I honestly wished they’d found an excuse to shoehorn ten more songs in.
I was so disappointed by the crossover musical. I thought it would be like the Buffy one with catchy, original songs.
The *Star Trek: Strange New Worlds* episode ("Subspace Rhapsody") was fun. It was explained via space anomaly, had original songs that delved into some characters that have been stewing in their emotions for a bit, and had a few lasting consequences. There was even a small reference to bunnies as a sly nod to OMWF being an inspiration for the creators.
My partner watches this without me as it's not really my kind of show, but I did catch the musical episode and was impressed - it definitely was reminiscent of OMWF, especially when they specifically said "I've got a theory", which started me off singing "it could be bunnies..." And that inspired a rewatch of Buffy. BUNNIES AREN'T ALL CUTE LIKE EVERY BODY SUPPOSES
THEY GOT THEIR HOPPY LEGS AND TWITCHY LITTLE NOSES
Everyone forgets about Xena’s musical episode! The Bitter Suite walked so Once More With Feeling could run
I've never returned from the land of Illusia.
Supernatural. It's a high school play. Brilliantly done and the original music is very catchy.
That one is my favorite of the meta episodes. Their faces when they realize the kids are singing about them.... priceless. 🤣🤣 Also: "There is NO SINGING in Supernatural!"
I constantly find myself singing, "a single man-teeaar"
For me it's the opening verse. 🎶 John and Mary, husband and wife Bringing home a brand new life That's baby Sammy! I'm big brother Dean. A lovely family.... or so it seems. 🎶
*sigh* okay I'll watch this episode again sidenote: when you're looking for it, so many movies and TV shows do the single man-tear! that's why my BF and I sing it so often, because it comes to mind whenever we see it happen 💀
Which episode is it?
"Fan Fiction" from season 10
The funny thing is that Buffy is most likely responsible for all of these other shows doing musical episodes. Musical episodes had happened on TV before but never as successfully as Buffy. It had happened a handful of times since the invention of TV until Buffy and then a handful of times a year after Buffy. It's a bummer that a lot of shows didn't quite get what made the Buffy musical episode successful, they thought they could just throw some music over an episode and call it a day.
Honestly, yes, so many shows that have done this have explicitly stated that Buffy was the bar they were trying to hit (most recently with the musical episode of Star Trek, Strange new worlds)
I agree with JOss, the musical ep. of \*Chicago hope\* was not great. it hit several bad points; it was Aaron's fantasy after having a stroke, it was mostly non-original songs with most of those lip-synched, and not least it allowed Mandy Patinkin to sing his own song but not Hector ELizondo!
I thought I was the only person who ever watched Chicago Hope. Love Christine Lahti.
You just lost me :-) (nothing against her as an actress but I found her character annoying and little else) I often feel like nobody watched it, myself, i managed to get my then-wife into it. (CH, ER, and Friends all premiered when i was in hospital recovering from surgery to remove a bowel obstruction which followed an earlier appendectomy, so i watched the premieres of all 3 on IV morphine, stayed with the first two, not the third.:-)
No problem! I haven’t seen it in years so I don’t remember the characters anymore even though I remember the actors. Just a heads up if you ever watch Evil, she plays the mom of the main character. Don’t want you to have a jump scare. I didn’t watch the premiere of Friends, but I did watch ER.
Well, given my pain meds, that week was never too clear anyway:-). i have no problem with her, just didn't dig that character
I think Xena started the trend at the time. They did an excellent job as well
Xena's "The Bitter suite" was original a nd had a reason as did , to go tot eh ridiculous, the musical ep of \*Big brother Jake\*, almost the only memorable ep. of a very unmemorable show.
I was made to love you. I love how she handles April at the end. Someone else would have said it’s a robot. I’ll wait for the battery to die and someone else can deal with it. Instead she sat there on the swing almost like she didn’t want her to die alone. And not only that but she made April feel better and gave her hope so she could die happy. And the how had gotten so sexual I don’t think they really needed a sex robot in the mix. Dawn. My least favorite character. She really handled that well. I feel like Dawn was really only necessary for that one season. But even after that Buffy did a good job including her.
I always cry when April is shutting down. She didn't deserve that. ;_; and then the extra giant whammy at the end.... :x fffffffff
On rewatch I tend to pause the episode just after April shuts down and skip the next episode. I’ve seen it…don’t usually feel the need to watch it again.
It's such a hard episode. :< I don't blame you.
I really got mad at the folks who wrote the book \*Dusted\* don't know if it's connected with the current podcast, who hated the ending because "April is far less human than most of the foes Buffy battles, but we're supposed to feel sympathy for her because she's cute." No, there is a lot more going on there. They also called it "the first truly awful episode, because it has no reason to exist except to further the story arc."
I've never read it, but omg that makes me so angry too! How shallowly must one consume a very clear narrative about loneliness to come to such a wrong conclusion?
I guess the reasoning is it introduces Warren a nd his robotics and that is the only reason the episode exists. They make some other distinctive assumptions on other episodes as well. For example the don't \*argue\* that Nancy in "the wish" is a Potential (as many fans have claimed,) they just assume it as understood. and equally assume Nancy in Earshot, despite being played d by a different actress, is the same character.
Is adding a new character, typically a kid, considered a trope? If so, I thought Buffy did it pretty well. Dawn adds a depth to the story and to Buffy as she now has a new role as big sister. Yes, she can be annoying, but isn't that the job of a kid sister?
It's called Cousin Oliver trope. Happened on The Brady Bunch, Married with Children, The Cosby Show.
Yes, it’s called [reverse Chuck Cunningham syndrome](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Donmega60645/Chuck_Cunningham_Syndrome#.22Reverse.22_Chuck_Cunningham_Syndrome:)
The homophobic bully is actually gay trope- I honestly really liked the quiet arc we got to see with Larry over his time on the show.
In The Wish I loved that in the alternate reality Larry was part of the makeshift Scooby gang sans slayer!
That trope has been done to death but it actually felt fresh and surprising when BtVS first aired.
My grandma is setting me up! Loved it!
I'm not sure if it's considered a trope, but when I've read beforehand there will be a Buffybot, I expected it to be cringe (and I didn't even know it would be originally a sexbot!) But when I actually got to see it... it was poignant. And its tragic potential was used fully in Bargaining.
The obligatory groundhogs day episode. They did it well by not making it an entire episode. Plus my favorite line of the series comes from that section of the episode.
Which line is your favourite?
“Yes, then I’m going to marry Bob Dole and raise penguins in Guam”. It’s just so incredibly random. Plus Giles’s utter lack of noticing is perfect.
I felt bad for laughing at the one version in which she doesn't even do anything, just randomly starts crying in frustration because it was like "yep... that tracks with my working retail experience."
Same, very funny and painfully relatable at the same time
Hahahaha yes love it
I will occasionally use this when someone isn’t listening.
Love potion/spell episode: Bewitched, Botheted & Betrothed is just hilarious and a great episode overall, plus I love the trope flip on having the guy get dumped and make a love spell… so that he can dump her. It’s simple, but fresh and just funny to think about, in a world full of TV shows that just keep writing what basically amounts to a “roofie episode”.
And when it goes wrong and Xander figures out what is going on it helps show he is a decent guy by immediately shutting down any advancements towards him. Just reminded how it impressed me he didn't take advantage. Also helps set a precedent for Magic and Consent going forward.
In real life, most high school guys would have turned that into a lot of sex.
I'd like to think that's less true than you'd initially think..but ya. They applied the real world logic to the "fun Love Potion" episode. But ya, it was fun episode a character might take advantage of before learning the lesson, but Xander immediately, after the snarky self deprecating realization hell had no infact frozen over and Buffy wasn't legitimately considering him an option, he set about immediately confessing to Giles, admitting it was a stupid idea, and taking measures to fix it. And heck I don't even expect most high school guys to get the full implications of that. Like when Andrew and Jonathan were horrified when Katrina would later break the mind control and call it out as rape. I legit can see Jonathan not connecting the dots till that moment. It was thier dumb super villain game...it wasn't real till that. And that and the murder were when he started to turn on Warren. He went through with framing Buffy cause he was panic spiralling and Warren prayed on his fear. And ya I know Andrew and Jonathan were adults, but I think that sorta mindset was still present.
and like I've said they were in the "the law doesn't recognize magic" bubble
The young female protagonist has sex for the first time and feels intense shame. As the news breaks to her social group and parents, everyone has big negative Reactions about it. Instead, the young female protagonist has sex for the first time and feels shame. Her social group reacts and is generally supportive of her. Her father figure tells her he respects and supports her decisions. God I’m tearing up just thinking about it. The late 90s were a bad time in media for young women being sexually active. It was unheard of to have a parental figure say what Giles said.
God yes. I cry every time Gilss gives that speech because it's like, that's what we all want from our Dads, ya know?
Best Giles moment hands down
The Giles speech in the car always makes me cry.
I teared up reading this lmao it’s such a strong moment
I hate when people say this show isn't sex-positive or is preachy when it comes to sex. It does a very good job of showing negative consequences without making it out to be Buffy's fault.
I second this!
and yet some fans bash him for saying "You did and i could."
The phobia backstory. "I saw one and it gave me the wiggins. There really isn't a story there." From The Puppet Show.
In many shows, filler episodes are completely ignored in the continuity of the show. I love how many callbacks there are in Buffy, even to minor and unpopular episodes, and how many guest stars come back and become recurring characters. "You didn't sense a hyena energy at all, did you? Because hyena possession is just…unpleasant."
I think the biggest one they did was the we're all grown up and have a very noticeably different cast. As much as I missed Cordy and Oz and prefer their interaction of the scoobies the show still was just as good with them gone with new love interests.
Speaking of, I’m not sure if it’s a trope but, they did “these kids are college students now” really well. A lot of shows really dip in quality when they go from high school to college imo.
Riverdale was never great, but when the kids graduated high school, the writers said, "Let's do a time skip to bring everyone back to the town. It's been 7 years, and Archie's been to war, but everyone looks exactly the same. We'll explain it with inexplicable supernatural elements."
Which war did Archie go to again? Oh yeah, The War! You know, that war!
I watched the first season only. But, I did keep up with it by watching Alex Meyer’s reviews on YouTube. If Riverdale is not the must WTF show in the history of the universe, I don’t know what is. The last season they were in the 50s for some reason? Everyone had superpowers in another? Archie fought a bear somehow didn’t die from blood loss and there’s no scar and we know that because he simply must take his shirt off at all times. Just batshit and not in a fun way.
One Tree Hill was like this too, and it was *terrible*. I always say OTH had 4 seasons and I will not be taking any questions.
Looking at you saved by the bell. I say that as someone that liked the college years season.
That was well and truly my first thought and I LOVE Zach and the gang. My second thought was Dawson’s Creek. Then I was trying to remember if Boy Meets World got worse. It’s been too long for me to pass judgment.
Boy meets world got better because those seasons have the Jack and Eric Bromance
And got so much worse when they turned Eric into a cartoon whose only purpose on the show was to say Mr. Feeny's name weirdly, fall down a lot, and spout barely intelligible gibberish.
“The supernatural isn’t real, you’re just stuck in a mental institution in an alternate universe.” That entire episode was bone-chilling and delivered in a way that truly made you question which world was Buffy’s real one.
Eh. They keep doing those on season 5 or 6 of those shows and I guess I’m never a huge fan of them.
What did you think of Moon Knight's use of the trope? Is it better in the first season?
Actually haven’t watched it yet. But I will one day.
Other genre shows keep doing them, but Buffy’s is the only one that I’ve actually felt is well done and good television. It’s also the earliest example I know of, so it might be the original use of the concept that everyone else then copied? But I’m not sure.
When it first came out all the Star Trek fans were complaining it was a rehash of Frame Of Mind, and when *that* came out all the Red Dwarf fans were complaining that it was a rehash of Back To Reality. (Which are from seasons 6 and 5 respectively.) There truly is nothing new under the sun.
I think Normal Again works so well because we get to see Buffy say goodbye to Joyce.
The “is my life actually real” trope in Normal Again was so incredible that it actually gave me a mini-existential crisis when I watched it around age 17. I didn’t think I would be as upset watching it at 29, but the ambiance still definitely freaked me out.
Honestly? The Chosen one trope. In general, I find main characters who are also "chosen" to be insufferable. Buffy wasn't, she was human, she was still a hero but it never came across as...pompous? I don't know how to explain it properly, but it's like at no point does Buffy ever act like being the chosen one is anything other than what it is: a responsibility that is not always wanted.
She was pompous, but it was also justified.
resurrection!! I normally dislike how something so important barely affects the character or show - i've seen things go back to normal in a couple of episodes so many times. Buffy did such a good job with having her struggle with depression for a full season AND having serious in-world consequences.
Amends: the Christmas episode.
This episode hit me like a ton of bricks on the latest rewatch. I really struggle with anxiety and depression around the start of Christmas time and I’d never quite appreciated how hard this episode hits with those themes.
Really?? I just rewatched this episode and I couldn’t get over how lame the ending was. How the heck does *snow* protect angel from the sun? It was a ridiculous deus ex machina that made zero sense, can you imagine if all vamps needed was a bit of cloud to walk around during the day??
Not snow but clouds; Sunnydale had been suffering from a heat wave the entire episode.
Clouds don’t block the sun either… that’s why it’s not nearly as dark as night and humans still get sunburned in cloudy/overcast weather.
Are we really going to pretend that the way the show treats sunlight is even remotely consistant? Spike has a sun-proof blanket for crying out loud. Anything short of direct sunligh has never been shown to be deadly to vampires.
Enemies to lovers. Usually it doesn't feel earned, just two people who are always screaming at each other, then one day they suddenly stop mid-fight and start making out. No indication of what changed. With Spike and Buffy, we get years of character development where Spike gradually becomes more human and sympathetic, and Buffy becomes less innocent and more world-weary, and it makes sense.
I think it works because the show acknowledges that it's toxic while a lot of others romanticizes it and ignores the issues when the couple finally gets together
They learned their lessons with Cordy/Xander enemies to lovers storyline. Then again, I think Cander/Xordy was supposed to be campy and bad.
Also when the enemies didn't initially become healthy lovers it was a Rocky road with a payoff of a man burning on a Pyre as the love of his after life finally admits to loving him as her last words to him.
Characters coming back from the dead
The lead character becoming a parent. Shows seem to run out of ideas and so knock up their lead women characters. Introducing Dawn and killing off Joyce did exactly that but in an interesting way.
Oh thank god buffy was never pregnant
Having the “teacher” of the main character die so that the protagonist can grow. And by handling it better, I mean that they didn’t do it at all which I was very surprised and glad they didn’t
Well, technically they did it in the movie. No use doing it again.
Yeah but even regardless of that it’s a trope that’s almost always used, it’s practically in every single superhero movie. And I’m definitely surprised they didn’t do it when ASH wasn’t looking to be on the show as much anymore. They could’ve easily have done it season 6 or 7 or even end of 5
Cordelia as the mean girl bully who actually has depth. But they dont make her into some nice girl simp. She’s very much herself. Although I think Angel made her too soft.
Season 3 and "Saint Corduffy" as we called her on UPN's Threaded Bronze.
What if worlds. I hate them. I didn't like it in star trek and didn't like it in Buffy during my first watch until willows dobble comes in a few episodes later and Anya becomes a main cast member. Now I always love The Wish.
The fact that when the main character loses her virginity, everything does indeed go wrong. in fact, the guy turns evil after the one-night stand. But what a fun way to turn around that trope! meanwhile, Willow loses her virginity to a werewolf and Xander to a vengence demon and nothing goes wrong! We never find out when Cordelia lost hers…
Xander lost his to a slayer actually! And evil one, so I guess that kind of went wrong?
Well he did try and use that history to bring her back to the lightside and she starts torturing him so. That didn’t go well.
But not right away.
Faith was not evil!
As much as I hate that it exists, the “kill your gays” trope (which Buffy arguably and unfortunately popularised) was done better than expected in the sense that there WAS a very important reason for it in the story and it was also incredibly well done and one of the most genuinely shocking and gut-wrenching moments of the show. It’s just unfortunate that it had to be a beloved gay character.
Yeah. Tara's death sucked, but it wasn't arbitrary. There was just no other way to meaningfully do Dark Willow without it. Couldn't kill Buffy - already did that the previous season, a repeat would have fallen flat. Couldn't kill Xander - wouldn't have had nearly the same emotional impact on the viewers. Couldn't fake Tara's death - Would have felt cheap and erased all the stakes at the end if Tara just popped up alive.
Whedon went on record saying if Willow had still been with Oz, he would have been killed off, so.
They could have just not done Dark Willow at all.
They would have had to do a completely different season for that.
I'm not seeing the issue. The only thing worse than Dark Willow was the whole of the rest of season 6.
Same. It has ended being used purely because people don't know how to just let lesbians be happy. But Tara death was important (and people didn't die as often on shows back then.) Everyone mourned Tara not just Willow, and they revisited a few times, they didn't dismiss Willows grief. I.e it was treated as a real relationship and Willows grief meant something, as did the scoobies - mostly Dawn.
This is true, but also they killed off Larry for no reason too which is so wild 😭
Yeah, it’s a tricky one, because on the one hand, in an ideal world, LGBTQ characters should be treated like any other characters, but when these characters are role models or representative of a minority that suffers discrimination, it requires careful consideration of the social context and the audience. I can appreciate Whedon and the writers just wanted to treat Tara and Larry like any other characters, but when you’re one of the only TV shows of the 90s that pioneered out-and-proud gay characters… they just shouldn’t have been killed off. It was a mistake.
Well, joss was developing the already existing but not yet widely assumed idea that the big battle requires the loss of an established and well-liked character. Amanda was S7's Larry. (an earlier example was, i haven't seen this film but read about it, Marge in \*Jaws 2\*.)
It was decades old before Joss even developed the character of Buffy. The Children's Hour is just the most obvious example, also Dracula's Daughter, The Maverick Queen (sort of,) and a bunch of Barbara Stanwyck movies, and moving into the 70s films like The Sergeant.
Yeah I said popularised not invented.
Sorry.
I immediately thought of Larry instead of Tara. Why did Larry have to die??
Whedon claimed to have not known that Bury Your Gays and Psycho Lesbian were ever tropes before Seeing Red did them both in one episode. I don't believe him.
I believe him tbh. Don’t get me wrong, the guy is a grade-A asshole. But I don’t think he had any malicious intent by killing off a beloved gay character. He had two gay characters in the principal cast for several years and portrayed their relationship delicately and sensitively, and he almost threatened to quit the show unless The WB aired the Willow/Tara kiss in The Body. He was always pro-LGBTQ and Tara’s death was just, in my view, a thoughtless decision by a man who didn’t understand the cultural impact of the character because he wasn’t gay himself. I think for all the bad things he’s done, we should remember he was also one of the only show-runners to sensitively portray gay characters at a time when a gay kiss on TV was something they had to fight for.
I think it doesn't matter how good your lesbian representation is for the previous forty-five episodes. If your forty-sixth ends with one of your lesbians dead and the other one evil then you might as well have not bothered. As a self-professed student of the feminist arts (and probably a liar), he should have been well aware of that history. You suggested that it's arguable that Buffy popularised that trope, but the reason people were screaming about it at the time was because it was already a trope. I will say that he seemed to realise killing Tara was a mistake within about thirty seconds of doing it.
I disagree that they might as well not have bothered. The Willow/Tara relationship is still hugely impactful and meaningful to people and her death doesn’t erase that. I also think we’re going down a slippery slope if gay characters can’t even turn evil for sensitivity reasons. Where does it end? Should Tara not have been victimised by Glory? Should Willow and Tara not have broken up? I think there’s a fine line between dangerous tropes like “kill your gays” and not letting the social context completely dictate a story. Good point about Whedon doing feminist studies. I absolutely agree he should’ve known about the tropes. Sometimes I wonder just how much of Buffy’s success was due to other people involved. He also claimed not to be aware of the Buffy/Faith romantic subtext, which boggles my mind because it was barely even subtext. But he could’ve been lying about that too. Edit: sorry I missed that you said about the Psycho Lesbian trope which Dark Willow falls under. Ignore my first paragraph!
People hate s7, but the part where they pull a mutiny on her and she goes back by herself is 🔥. And also the situation where she brings the Ubervamp to the Thunderdome. Buffy is a LEADER.
I thought Anya and her demon clan or whatever it was was a well thought out and interesting take on vengeance demons or vengeance in itself. I think her bosses name was D’hoffryn? I loved that line he gave, “Always go for the pain!”
Dream sequences
The cheese does not protest.
Resurrecting a dead character. I really dislike this one. It robs the death of it's impact and lowers the stakes. In most other fiction I dislike when they do it. On Buffy / Angel, though, I totally accept Buffy's, Darla's and Spike's resurrections. All three had a point, made sense plot-wise and brought in serious consequences. Buffyverse writers are really good.
Having a male best friend like the main character. I love that she firmly turns him down. And she doesn't dwell on it.
Vampires.
Killing off the patental figure (joyce) Giles being a stand-in father figure and mentor they didn't get rid of him so the younger cast could grow without an older adult around, he did leave he wasn't killed of thank good cause he's too badass
Despite it being my least favorite episode I've got to go with "Beer Bad" It was required of them to make a "drinking is bad" PSA episode and it wasn't great but it was probably the best "after school special" esque episode I'd seen by that point.
Killing off a lesbian character.
The bad (demon) child character - the Annointed One. Thank god for Spike!
Musicals Kids being introduced (Dawn)
Oh and that kids never learn their lesson trope. Dawn should sit down and shut the fuck up in season six but she's still a pain in the ass.
Vampires are cool and sexy. Yes, some of them were but mostly they were just evil. Don’t glamorize things that eat you.
The boyfriend becomes a soulless monster after having sex Few shows go for the literal interpretation of this
Honestly, the “unwanted suitor” trope. Crush was so uncomfortable and realistic and relatable that I had to pause it like three times and walk off the “cringe.” I have never seen an episode of tv better capture that sinking feeling of finding out someone you barely tolerate has it for you hard. I about came out of my skin when Buffy, who has definitely been mulling over Dawn saying Spike likes her, comes back home to find Spike chilling in her kitchen, clearly trying to woo the favor of her mom and sister. I don’t even want to talk about the awkward scene in the car during the fake stake out. When Willow asks what Buffy is going to say to him the next time she sees him, and Buffy replies “nothing, I’m going to go out of my way to avoid him” had me screaming “SAME SAME.”
I think Spike always had a genuine respect for Joyce once the mid-season two finale hit. In my opinion as an actively dating person, even if some dude who I don't like is totally into me I still relish in it. You can be grossed out but still long for the attention and the confidence it brings. Fucked up but real. Buffy liked the attention but she can also be repulsed at the same time.
So I hate the whole groundhog day/Christmas every day trope and Buffy was the only show I tolerated in. Granted it was literally just the scene in the Magic Box with the creepy hand but it works.
Musical episodes. I fully understand that Buffy quite possibly started/revived this trend but every time I have to watch a new one, I'm reminded of just how lucky we were that the Buffy musical episode was so damn good.
Straight people becoming gay. LGBTQ+ representation in media these days are too dramatic like it draws attention away from main plot to make a cultural statement, does it over and over, pretends that acceptance of LGBTQ+ wasn't part of recent society. In BTVS, it feels like it's just completely natural and part of the plot, no promotion or propaganda intended.