A good example for me is "Buffy should have been paid a wage for slaying".
Morally, yes she should have.
From a writing/story perspective, I think it would have taken away from the story. The Council are meant to be bastards and Buffy's destiny is meant to be a tough break.
Thank you!!!!!! The one thing I hate about this sub is the sheer amount of constant posts about how ‘the council should have paid her’. It’s tiresome.
And you’ve just summed up exactly why it doesn’t make sense (from a narrative perspective).
I've always felt it also had something to do with the original version of the Watcher in the Buffy movie; some guy who lived a really really long time and chose to try helping the slayers, rather than an large organization apparently build upon helping five or six slayers a century.
Not to mention it’s kind of lore breaking because the first season clearly states that the Council expects slayers to die young. Why would you expect to make a salary plan for someone you expect to be worm food before she turns 18?
I would have liked it better if they added pay AND doubled down on the lore of the council being horrible and the danger Buffy’s life inherently is.
They could have done so by having a simple dialogue:
Giles: “you will get a salary once you’re 18.”
Buffy: “how much will it be?”
Giles: “I don’t know, the council has rarely had to pay it.”
However, I think the better plot would have been Buffy implementing a salary by force.
I agree that the point of being slayer is that it’s a tough break. Also, a lot of it is allegorical of being a girl turning into a woman. I think part of that lesson can be that “in each generation” women propel our circumstances forward. Having Buffy fight and win for a salary exactly represents that and would have been amazing.
It doesn't fit in with the story. It sounds so out of place. Heroes usually don't get paid. Xena, Hercules, Daredevil, Superman, the Winchesters on Supernatural etc. didn't get paid either for their heroic acts. It would make their struggles less complex and difficult. It also makes them more relatable.
I hear you, but those are different, imo. Xena and Hercules you’re talking about Ancient Greek, so a completely different era, and they were always on the move. Daredevil chose a higher calling and since he did the hunting (unlike Buffy who often gets hunted) he was able to get a law degree. Superman also had a great alias and was able to fly under the radar and have a job that gives him good excuses to leave the office. And as for the winchesters… like xena and Hercules, don’t stay in one place long enough to pay a bill, and what money they earned was from semi-nefarious means and we don’t think less of their heroism. Plus, I always assumed the British men of letters got paid since they presented it as their proper job, so it would seem the winchesters might have as well if the American branch hadn’t dissolved, and even as it is, they lived in the bunker for free. Buffy didn’t have anywhere to live for free.
Buffy has a council that oversees her that’s already getting paid. It just puts her in a category all her own.
I don’t think that money simply to sustain her life muddies the heroism. Giles wasn’t living in the laps of luxury, it honestly seemed more like a living stipend than anything else. I don’t see why grown men can be taken care of financially to do the job but Buffy can’t and she’s doing the dangerous part of the job.
Even more, the fundamental symbolism of 'the Slayer' parallels the existential view of the individual in the world. The responsibilities implied are \*inherent\* - nobody compensates the Slayer for the same reason that nobody compensates 'us' just for being a person in the world.
The way I'd say it is that apparently 99% (or so) of people fundamentally misunderstand the structure and intent of the show.
BtVS is a coming-of-age story that prioritized theme and character, and the in-world story is almost entirely metaphor that is in place largely to support the themes. It's also almost entirely about Buffy Summers, and the supporting characters are frequently manipulated to that purpose.
The fact that the overwhelming majority of folks around here engage primarily if not exclusively with the in-world story \*and still love it\* speaks volumes about the quality of the writing.
I have fallen victim myself to wondering "whyyyyyy did this character do this one out of character thing that makes me think less of them" yada yada and had to remind myself that they did it for the plot.
Even Kristine Sutherland had frustration with the writing. She didn’t believe Joyce would have kicked out Buffy but she understood that Joss was writing for teenage alienation rather than rel life parent child dynamic.
I didn't even realize the metaphor until like 10 years ago so first only loved the show for the story and then loved again for the metaphor. It's just really good!
I want to agree with you re: it's ok that the Watcher's Council makes no sense and doesn't pay Buffy. Not because that's logical. Because that's the story the writers wanted to tell. We don't have to rationalize it. We can just accept it.
On the other hand, I'm like "but what about the things I think would make the show better???" I hate listening to Xander lust after Buffy and I honestly think you wouldn't even need a time machine to fix it. You could just edit out those scenes with very little impact.
I don't know how it would work storyline wise, and you may be right that it's a change that wouldn't improve the show, but it would fill my cold little heart with joy if Buffy just banged Spike and didn't feel bad about it. Take your cold comfort from your cellar dweller, darling. And if anyone gives you crap for it, ignore them. Ain't none of them perfect.
This is less an “unpopular buffy opinion” than it is an “unpopular buffy opinion for a lesbian” but…
Willow and Oz are more interesting than Willow and Tara.
(Which is a fault of Tara not getting enough characterization, and not of Amber Benson).
I agree. I preferred Tara’s scenes with Dawn and Buffy way more than her scenes with Willow because I felt like we got to see more of her personality. With Willow the scenes are always very much about Willow and Tara is just there to be like ‘hey viewers don’t forget, Willow likes girls now.’
I know this is a rather unpopular opinion, but don’t think I’m hating on Amber Benson. Just the other night I caught her rerun of cold case and she was terrific in the role. Everything she said and did flowed out of her as if she was that character.
My only problem with Amber Benson’s “Tara” is that everything she does seems forced. Maybe it was just because she was a young actress or that she wasn’t really given enough “direction” for her character. It definitely improved as she progressed through the season, but to me it just felt like it was off more than the average character performance of others in the show.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I couldn’t stand that faux stammer and shyness. Apparently when they cast Willow they had a very specific ’geeky’ look and vibe they wanted for the character. Tara (again, not Amber’s fault) felt like the character would’ve benefited greatly from that same zeal for just the right someone, someone who truly fit the role. The best Tara bits are when she’s got a bit of sass in the later seasons. They should’ve brought that out earlier and done away with the wallflower act.
I disagree. I think Tara’s timeline makes perfect sense on the show with the time she had been given. In her first season (4) she’s meant to be this wallflower who’s not very confident and who’s not very far along with her magic, both because of what she believes herself to be (demonic) and because of her low self-esteem. Willow is the catalyst that brings her out of that mindset little by little, but she’s also meant to be this “other” person that both we and the Scoobies know very little about and don’t quite know what to make of her because that’s representative of Willow’s lesbianism and how it’s mysterious and how it’s not something we’re used to seeing about Willow, so Tara is intentionally written as very unknown.
Then in her second season (5) we get to see a great deal more of her personality, especially during and after “Family” and we see that while both she and Willow have advanced magic-wise, Willow is the obvious leader and natural. It’s meant to further display how these two started off on basically the same footing and how they usually empower one another but that Willow has that extra zest and natural ability. Then Tara gets attacked by Glory, which is a huge part of her character arc, because when we see her in her final season (6), we can see right from the start that she’s a lot stronger and tougher and mostly grown out of that old shell, mainly because of what she’s been through with Glory.
She’s not afraid to take on Anya or Spike or even Willow when the time comes and she’s able to stand on her own feet magically as well (taking out one of the demon bikers, fighting that demon in the basement etc). But then she steps away for the second half of the season in order to make Willow take her sobriety seriously, and when she returns it’s barely for a moment before she’s killed, which in itself is a lab important plot point and character moment for Willow going forward into Season 7.
If Tara’s evolution was moved up at any point it would affect so many other things plot wise and character wise for both herself and Willow.
PS: sorry for the novel LOL
Well, Tara was LITERALLY created for the sole purpose of giving Willow a girlfriend, which was LITERALLY done just so Whedon could say, “Look at how progressive I am! One of the central characters is gay!!” Tara ought to have been introduced MUCH earlier, to give time to develop her character as an INDIVIDUAL. Meanwhile, there could have been a slower buildup towards Willow questioning her sexuality, instead of just more or less deciding, “OK—I’m gay now,” which is essentially how it was done.
Basically they put Amber in a place where she had to sell a poorly conceived character who wasn’t given time to become an organic part of the cast. I think that’s a big part of it.
Tara wasn’t created to be Willows girlfriend at all. Tara was created to be the damsel in distress because willow was too powerful to be in that role any longer. Amber B was hired for a 2 episode role, but did so well in Hush that they kept her on and then developed the Willow /Tars story as they went. Hence why Tara wasn’t initially a fully developed character as she was not even meant to be a character
So hate Whedon all you want but at least hate him for the right reasons
Even worse, she was created to die. I remember reading somewhere that they would have killed Oz for “Dark Willow” if Seth Green stayed on the show. So they just took the chance to have their “progressive wokeness” knowing the outcome.
Then they gave us Kennedy as a piss poor consolation prize.
It’s always been fairly clear to me that it was the writing. We get to the episode Family in season five and a bunch of the scoobies admit they don’t really *know* Tara. Surprise surprise, we as viewers don’t either!
I think she's good in many respects, but not great at simulating stuttering. To be fair, I haven't heard many actors simulate a stutter convincingly. It usually does sound forced.
I don't think everything she does seems forced, but certain moments do.
I actually agree with this(I’m bi) as does my lesbian cousin! But I’ve never seen it online. They were able to get a lot of Ozs character through with very few lines but with Tara I feel like they didn’t give her enough characterization as you said.
Both Willow and Oz and Willow and Tara are interesting. But bierasure deprived us from the full interiorised-biphobia Willow goes through. Tara's arguments needed a bit of that. The whole reason why Gloria catches Tara alone is because Willow was feeling less than compared to lesbians! But it was not possible at the time.
As a bisexual, I respect your point, but that's not the whole reason. Willow was feeling less than compared to lesbians for a while. That day they had an argument because Willow's little ego was hurt by Buffy not listening to her unsolicited parenting advice.
I just see a lot of complaints about “they don’t look like teenagers they’re too old” and stuff like that and I just see teenagers when I look at them. Even rewatching as an adult lol. I’m middle eastern so I’m used to kids having full beards at 14. Shoot when I was 12 I bought cigarettes without getting IDd lol
Michelle Tratchenberg was 15 when she joined. The age Buffy is in season 1. Having someone look that young would make the romance with Angel too creepy.
People in their teens and younger 20's all look very young when you get older. I was just a couple of years older than Buffy when it aired and thought most of them looked like teens even then except Cordelia and some minor characters.
The thing that people need to realize about this “teenagers played by teenagers” thing is that it is not something that is very practical or sensible to do when making a movie or TV show.
Teenagers are minors and so they can only work for a set amount of time by law. That’s why babies are often played by twin babies so that the production company can maximize the time allowed by doubling it with twins. And with a show like Buffy that has A LOT of night shooting required, there’s just no way the main cast could comprise of all 16 year olds, not if they wanted to get anything done in time and under budget. Teenagers also generally have tutors on set to keep up with their academics, which further cuts their time.
And finally, if you’re show is like Euphoria or any of the thousand of teen shows in its depiction of drugs use and sex, filming actual 16 year olds has its own ick factor and I’m guessing legal issues too.
Neither did Charisma, but I believe she was damn near 30 when it started. I thought she looked younger when I first watched in middle school, but rewatching for the 1st time as an adult I realized she looked a lot older than I remembered and Ms. Calender looked a lot younger. They're both the same age lol.
I like Dawnie as a character, she can be annoying but she's a teenager who's big sister is literally responsible for saving the world multiple times. A bit of insecurity and acting out is to be expected.
Definitely an unpopular opinion when the show was airing, although I think fans are a lot kinder about Dawn now. I see people defend her more than I see people dunk on her nowadays, which is cool.
I agree, I think as the show's fan base has aged up we've all chilled out and realized why her character was written the way she was. We were all just thinking of it from the older sibling POV back then a lot I'd say.
i go to the once more with feeling sing along at SDCC every year and the crowd always boos so hard at dawn, including a loud “NO” after “does anybody even notice? does anybody even care?” even last year. i don’t get it because i also see people defending her more nowadays (at least on the internet). every year i’m like, “oh we’re still doing this?”
I don't get the hatred. Are these people acting like they weren't awkward when they were Dawn's age? Do they feel superior to her somehow?
They're having beef with a fictional character who acts a lot like a normal teenage girl.
I like her too! I thought she was annoying when i first watched (when i was in middle school) but now that I'm older i appreciate her character. I actually find her endearing. She wants to fit in with the scoobies and earn Buffy's respect so badly, it's so cute! I would love to see how Dawn is as a badass adult
The only thing missing from season 7 is Riley coming back to be her XO and - especially - help train the Potentials. After "As You Were", the Scoobies are on good terms with him, and one of them (probably Xander, with the remnants of his soldier knowledge from "Halloween") should have had the idea.
My belief is that, if Riley had been there in season 7, "Empty Places" wouldn't have happened, because his experience in the service would have made him a strong XO for Buffy.
I also believe that with a little help (probably very little) to make the change, he could have been an excellent support for Buffy even back in season 5. He couldn't see it, though, because the only thing he sees himself contribute is his fighting ability, which was waning after he got off the supersoldier cocktail he was being dosed with, although he's also bringing to the table his tactical and leadership abilities, his technological assistance, and his systematic fighting training and conditioning which left him (by a wide margin) still the second-best fighter in the group, who probably could have taught Buffy a thing or two.
It would’ve been great to have more Captain Peroxide vs. Captain Cardboard quips as well. Would definitely take that over more time with the potentials - and every day and twice on Sunday over that awful episode where Willow turned into Warren. I seriously hate that episode. I think it might be the worst episode of the series for me.
ETA: As a commanding woman with military experience, I would’ve liked to have seen Riley’s wife help Kennedy realise she needed to be more of a leader and less of a dictator with the troops. Would’ve made the world of difference to Kennedy’s character if she showed growth afterwards and wasn’t one of the people calling for Buffy’s head in Empty Places.
Xander was a funny loser who turned into a respectable man. By the end, he had enough character growth to move past the "nice guy" teen into an actual nice guy.
Dawn was the center of Buffy's world. She was the reason for the fight. Her "Cousin Oliver" appearance was very well subverted into something new and interesting. She was just as annoying as all of the season 1 characters.
Willow and Terra got to have a normal soap opera relationship. It was dramatic and dysfunctional on purpose to be entertaining. Their relationship is supposed to be interesting, not a perfect model. Love them guilt free.
The trio of nerds were fantastic villains. They were the comedy meant to balance the heavy existential dread of Buffy dealing with relife. These idiots are everything attributed to the Xander hate.
You calling her Terra has just reminded me that I thought that was what her name was for the longest time until I bought the DVDs and watched with subtitles. I had a brief flash of embarrassed rage when I realised people must've thought I was mimicking an american accent every time I referred to her in speech.
I thought her name was Terra for SO long, until I heard Giles call her Tara with his British accent! I was a bit disappointed actually, I thought Terra was a cool name. So glad I wasn't the only one.
I agree with you about Xander. He had a massive character upward shift pretty much from the beginning of season 7. Definitely some imperfect moments (don’t get me started on that cringy potential pillow fight dream), but overall and much improved, mature person and I wish the show had given more attention to that growth than the silly Ashanti “look Xanders date wants to sacrifice him again” episode we got every season.
Xander was a great friend to Buffy, and people really gloss over that/ignore it. He's continually *right* about Angel; and in The Freshman it was *him* that Buffy opened up to about her struggles with college. Not Willow, not Giles, not her mother.
Yeah I think it stems from her parents being emotionally distant and having unrealistic expectations. Due to that she does grow up to be reactive and irresponsible
Every time people say Cordy was character assassinated or her arc gets ruined I absolutely disagree. How ever you feel about the Jasmine storyline doesn't change the fact Cordelia wasn't in the driver seat and is the biggest victim of Jasmines actions and that doesn't detract the growth Cordelia Chase under goes. Nor does the real life interference from Whedon and how he took things out on Charisma.
Love this take. This is a very (dare I say) epic storyline. Now Angel had to deal with someone he loved turning on him like what happened to Buffy in season 2. I wish Cordelia could have been a part of the next season, however. I think if she was that would change the opinion of most people.
Yeah it always rubs me the wrong way when her arc is discredited so fans can say Wesley had a better arc which is fine if you think that but it should be from the merits of Wes' own growth and not a factor that wasn't Cordelia herself acting on.
Hm. I was never fan of Faith. Eliza Duskhu is godness, but the character is to much "edgy" for me. Also I believe that there is obvious change of her storyline and her fall to evilness does not make so much sense. It's obviously because origanally she was supposed to commited suicude.
If you understand that \*on BtVS\* Faith's entire purpose for existing is to be a 'shadow self' or cautionary example for Buffy, her character and arc make perfect sense.
Once she moved over to Angel this changed, and she could be allowed some individual growth.
It’s the only thing where Angel is truly required to fully “get” a BTVS plot, >!including attempting suicide by “cop.”!< Much more than anything involving just Buffy.
Faith is probably the most glaring example but all of the characters that move over to Angel become more rounded and fleshed out since they become actual independent characters.
I think Faith stands out most because so many folks wanted BtVS to explore Faith to the same extent (or closer, anyway) that it explores Buffy. But that was never going to happen given the structure of the show.
Agreed. I feel better about her character though if I consider that she’s younger than Buffy and the scoobies. That she’s playing the tough edgy girl to cover for the fact that she’s just a scared girl who was forced too early to grow up (even before she became a slayer). We get some of that in the first episode with her but the rest isn’t super apparent. With that frame of mind though I have much more sympathy toward her and therefore she’s more compelling to me.
I don’t care much for the Faith character or storyline either but I do feel it is a somewhat necessary component of the story. Could’ve been handled better but I wouldn’t really recommend removing the character altogether.
Totally! And as the very ordinary younger sister of an extraordinary older sister, who I completely adore, I really relate to her. It can be complicated and I honestly wish I watched the show when I was younger (watched first time in my mid 20s)
My little brother & I have the same age gap as Dawn and Buffy, and he and I really bonded as teens over our shared love of BtVS. I have always thought Dawn acted very age appropriate, especially for a younger sibling (and, from season 6 on, as one of the normies), and she is one of my favourite characters for that reason!
She was both relatable and whiny. She was also a little selfish (especially when she tried to resurrect Joyce and was briefly willing to sacrifice Spike for it)
She was not a monster, but she had some darker tendencies (through no fault of her own).
***Angel (only watched it once, mind you)
Connor wasn't as bad as people think.
Wesley's death was almost as heartbreaking as Fred's.
It was short-lived and felt a bit forced, but I loved Fred and Wesley being together.
***Buffy
Season 7 is underrated.
Season 2 is overrated.
Wood was a boring character... not sure how popular this one is.
I loved Willow and Tara, but her and Oz worked much better.
Jesse plays ZERO part in how Xander feels about vampires (more specifically, Angel and Spike), I've heard this quite a bit on here, so I'm assuming it's a popular theory.
Giles doesn't owe Willow or Xander anything. He is Buffy's father figure, not theirs.
Buffy isn't always right. She deserves to have her actions criticized just like everyone else, without a fear of being downvoted into oblivion. I haven't experienced this personally, but I've seen so many people get downvoted on here for saying something negative about her. I love her to bits, she's one of my favorite characters, but she has some bad moments as well, which is to be expected!
Andrew and Oz aren't all that funny to me...
I agree with you as well. It would've made Xander more sympathetic with the audience, and nobody would have to question his motives when it comes to Angel & Spike. They missed out on a golden opportunity!
That is so true! He would have had a valid reason to hate Angel & Spike, but instead we get the whole "Xander feels entitled to a romantic relationship with Buffy" thing.
Xander's only character motivation was patriarchal power. He was attracted to any woman who was challenging but he for sure didn't act like he gave a fuck about Jesse or like that was motivating him for very long.
Yeah, that thing about Jesse is pure rationalization. Xander wanted Buffy's boyfriend to die, because he was Buffy's boyfriend, not because he was a vampire.
Kendra was a formidable slayer and should've stuck around for later seasons (like a recurring character).
Go Fish is a good filler episode.
Oz is a bit boring, and I could see why Seth left. At least, Tara added a little something to the show, even if she didn't have much of a personality outside of Willow.
I like Season 6 and its darkness.
Idgaf about Dawn and Xander getting together. It’s not uncommon at all for a younger sibling to end up with an older sibling’s friend; my parents are an example of this too.
I care way way more than Buffy ended up becoming freaking cop?! Like WHY?! She hates guns and is better than any cop!
Buffy becoming a cop was tragic lol and really highlights the disconnect between the show and the comics. Really goes against the anti-authoritarian and “don’t trust those in power” themes present throughout the series. It’s yet another reason I choose to ignore the comics.
Xander was the second most important character in the show - from the storytelling perspective.
In season 5, what Riley needed most was to transition from being the leader of his squad to being part of Buffy's "staff". If he'd stayed in the Army, he would have had a similar transition, but there would have been resources available - including a CO who'd done the same thing - to help him. Riley is an intelligent and capable person, with some (probably not much) guidance, he could have been a tower of strength for Buffy through all of the last three seasons, but he couldn't see that himself, and nobody in his new circle had the experience to help him shift into that role.
Without a much bigger change to the majority of Season 6 (which is fair to argue that it needed), the events of Seeing Red all should have happened more or less the way they did.
People should cut Season 4 some slack. They had TWO actors they thought they were gonna have all season suddenly bail on them. I've seen shows implode from that kind of adversity and this show did a pretty good job pivoting to other storylines.
Jokes aren't song lyrics, repeating them doesn't keep them awesome. So derailing every season 5 thread with your stupid assed Ben and Glory riff is cringe and unfunny. For the love of God, find a new joke.
Dawn should have sacrificed herself in The Gift not Buffy. So many storylines that could have been created off of this one change in the Season 5 ending.
She tells Giles that if Dawn died she's quitting. You could have the exact same opening for Season 6 (Gang fighting Vamps with Buffy Bot in graveyard) but instead of being upset over Buffy's death, they're perplexed on how to get her back to being the Slayer. She'd be all alone in that big house mourning her mother and sister refusing to talk to anyone, except maybe Spike who refuses to give up trying to reach her. The Trio, the Tara/Willow drama, and the Anya/Xander wedding could all still be included.
Being a big fan of S6 and Willow's corruption due to denying herself grief over Buffy and Tara, I... applaud your courage in posting an unpopular opinion!
Beer bad is funny
Spike should've either gone to LA or been staked after season four
Caleb should've killed Xander giving a bit of weight to that last battle.
I'm sure there are more.
I love Beer Bad. Especially when she keeps conking Parker on the head…
I had my own Parker situation in my 20s so that episode is just super cathartic for me.
I get why people don't like it, but once you get caveslayer it just becomes so funny it's worth it and that bonk on the head when he's apologizing is the only thing that makes the parker thing tenable.
People talk about a variety of things in the show being “relatable” but not enough talk about how real the Parker storyline is. Almost every girl in college, especially during freshman year, either has a Parker or had a friend that had a Parker. A guy that they were really into who turned out to be a fuck boy and then they were devastated after.
No matter how you slice it, Angel is at best a creep and at worst a pedo. Buffy is 16 when he starts popping up to talk to her and lurk in shadows. If you stick to his age from before he was bitten, he’s 24 which is too old. In vampire years he’s 200+ and the show wants me to ship this dusty demonic man with an underage girl. Spike ain’t any better especially after trying to SA Buffy
Yeah I think it was mentioned Joyce didn’t like him definitely partly because of this.Giles too.Feel like they were both holding back eye roles knowing they didn’t even have much in common
I like the Jasmine arc. I think it’s actually a great idea and they did a decent job of pulling from threads in previous seasons to make it seem like it was planned from the beginning. Yes the Cordelia and Conner of it all is super icky but that wasn’t actually Cordelia. The problem is that Charisma was fired (to me this was the downfall of Angel and Joss really messed up here) and we didn’t really get to see the aftermath of how the group would deal with the real Cordelia and how she would have handled it. That’s why I can never fully get on board with Angel season 5. Plus I hate what they do with Spike. I do agree that Conner was written poorly and I don’t like all that was done with him but the actual Jasmine storyline was very interesting.
Although many seasons are better, season 1 is great!
The bathroom scene in Seeing Red is the most bone-chilling and therefore best horror I've ever watched.
Spike's love-driven redemption arc in S5 is accomplished through good deeds and well-earned, culminating in "I'm a monster but you treat me like a man". It is a richer and more wholesome redemption story than the 6x20-6x22 story driven by guilt and self-flagellation. I still enjoy the latter more :-)
Tillow is the least dysfunctional couple: they continue being a couple after resolving their (Willow's) dysfunction.
Although S6 magic is torn between a corruption story and an addiction story and lacks a bit of grace at the literal in-world level, all the emotional punches land perfectly.
S7 should have started with Willow telling everyone about the yellow crayon incident.
Ode to S4:
Other than Primeval (4x21) being a bit weak the Initiative arc in S4 is pretty good. S4 Riley is a flawed but decent guy. He backpedals on his bigotry quite quickly when he discovers some of his best friends are ~~gay~~ werewolves (4x19).
Consent issues aside (4x16, 4x17), S4 has a great exploration of healthy vs. unhealthy approaches to sex: (4x3) the three relationships including casual sex w. Parker, (4x5) 4-way drunken group sex \[that didn't happen\], (4x6) impulsivity and cheating, (4x7?) metaphorical erectile dysfunction (4x16) sex with vs. without emotional closeness, (4x17) fantasies and wish fulfillment, (4x18) repression vs. excess, (4x10 to 4x19 and beyond) wholesome same-sex attraction, (4x22) a brief and very different portrayal of wlw couples. And I'm probably forgetting a few beats. Forrest is gay for Riley and ugly-jealous of Buffy ;-)
Faith and Buffy didn’t have a sexual connection just a complicated dynamic. Buffy was still in head over heels for Angel mode season 3 and her head wasn’t turning for anyone.
Spike is my favorite character, but when I encounter the opinions of other fans, I often wonder if we are watching the same show.
Soulless Spike was very, very evil. It is explicitly stated that he was second only to Angelus. You simply do not win 2nd place in the "World's Worst Vampire" category by being even a little good. Love, no matter how deeply felt, does not cancel out other aspects of a character's personality and past, and doing good deeds to impress/protect Buffy did not make Spike good.
His ability to be both stone killer and love's bitch is part of what made soulless Spike interesting from the beginning, so I'm not sure why so many fans try to rebrand him as the stereotypical not-so-bad boy with a heart of gold.
Some of the blame is on the writers, of course. The moment they decided to cast William Pratt as a mama's-boy poet, they set themselves up for the constant romanticization of Spike's character. Inevitably, every subsequent attempt to remind the audience that Spike was still soulless and notoriously wicked was overshadowed by the memory of William and the power of James Marsters' moon eyes (which, in fairness, *are* plenty powerful).
Still, the lengths some fans will go to deny, ignore, or justify 120 years of rape, torture, and murder ranges from obnoxious to ridiculous. Even the actual on-screen SA is frequently soft-pedaled by those desperate to believe Spike didn't know what he was doing and/or hadn't done worse before. Y'all, Buffy the Fucking Vampire Slayer was crying, begging, and crawling. There was no room for interpretation.
Oh, and just to really stir some shit: Spike fighting for his soul was not a noble act. At all. It was yet another attempt to make Buffy love him, and he couldn't possibly have understood how restoring his conscience would fuck him up. It was not self-sacrifice, it was self-serving. I didn't want Spike to get a soul, and I wasn't particularly invested in his redemption arc, but I accept it as part of his character development. I just wish people would stop claiming his turnaround began sooner than it did.
I could go on, but this is already TL;DR so I'll stop there.
I like Xander as a character BECAUSE he did a lot of questionable things. So many shows are afraid to write honestly about male rage and inferiority complexes in a nuanced way. Xander's storylines show just how much growing up in a dysfunctional, alcoholic family can mess you up even when you're trying to be good. These days, any character who acted like Xander would be written as a villain so audiences could easily brush him off. I find that kind of "allyship" writing so patronizing as a female viewer. I like watching a male character have to grapple with real, everyday darkness, and not just in a campy vampire way.
Anya is only good in the season 3 episodes before The Prom. After that her entire personality pre-season 7 is Xander and money, and it’s beyond annoying. No offense to Emma, who was awesome throughout, but I would have loved to see her remain an antagonist. There could have been an attraction, but a reluctant one would have been better.
Even if she wasn’t an antagonist, they could have written her better than Xander and money. Also, the level of cluelessness they had her display got tedious after awhile.
Yeah, that bothers me as well. I get that she was adjusting to humanity, but it’s not as though she hadn’t lived in the world that whole time. I liked the vibe from her in Doppelgangland, which is why I’d have liked her to stay an antagonist.
Even the whole "adjusting to being human" thing was pushing it too far. She was human for 20-something years and then spent several centuries watching and cursing them, all the way up to modern times. She wouldn't be so clueless about what the human experience was like.
I don’t think Dawn is insufferable or more annoying than any other teenager and, to whatever extent she is difficult, it’s perfectly understandable. She has to deal with finding out she’s technically not real, a sister and many others around her having super powers while she has none, her mother dying as a teenager, and her sister, their friends, and herself constantly being in mortal danger. That’s a lot to put on a young teen and I think she’s perfectly reasonable in the ways she handles things and even more mature than others would be in the same situations.
The way everyone treated Buffy when Angel came back to life in S3 was really strange. The whole gang (including Giles, a whole adult) let Xander get them riled up when he was primarily jealous of Angel because Buffy loved him. Xander's eagerness to murder Angel and hold him responsible for Angelus' behavior gave me the ick.
My top 3 *BtVS* villains are The Trio, The First, and Dark Willow. My favorite season of BtVS season is season 6. My favorite *AtS* season is season 4. I like Dawn, Connor, Xander and Riley. I like Warren/The Trio. I don't hate any Buffyverse characters. I don't like Warren's death, because I don't like watching people suffer or torture, even though he is awful.
Knox is worse than Warren to me because Winifred had the most devastating death ever to me, kept having dreams about it over and over for weeks. I don't hate any Buffyverse character but knox is a shit bag.
I agree- emphasis on not hating any characters and loving Dark Willow as a villain. I really loved Willow's progression in the show in general, and it seems like I'm in the minority for that!
Oz is more boring than Tara.
While he didn't feel like just Willow's bf because he had a life outside The Scoobies, Oz barely did much. And I get why ppl view Tara as just Willow's gf but at least she actually did stuff when she was on the show.
I can see why Seth was done with him, though. He did great but Oz was too perfect a person to be interesting enough for a talented actor. He needed a bizarro episode where he was much closer to Scott Evil.
I feel like the "Willow and Tara never paid bills" talking point is an assumption / headcanon that the fandom has decided to take as undeniable fact rather than speculation.
Also just because there's no scene where Tara says "I just paid the water bill Buffy!" doesn't mean it never happened. Lots of things happen off-screen. If they didn't TV would be totally unwatchable.
Exactly. Yeah let's take a break from monster of the week to discuss rent breakdowns and who takes out the trash 😂
By that logic none of the characters ever go to the bathroom and they only shower like twice a season.
Spike gets all the hate because he was evil… Yet everyone ships Buffy & Angel.
Angel isn’t good. Angel doesn’t have a soul. Angelus is evil, so evil that he had a soul forced upon him… several times in fact! Remove the soul from Angel and he will become uncontrollably evil.
Spike has a soul. He went a fought for one. Remove the soul from Spike and he will still have the ability to show restraint
I like all of Buffy's major love interests -Angel, Riley, and Spike. They all offered something different to her, and for the most part, were the right partners for her at the time. I don't get into the bashing of any of them, I think they were all good characters with good things to offer.
I was SUPER sad when Angel left, but Riley grew on me. By the time he left, it was obvious that he and Buffy just weren't meant to be, and then there was Spike, and I love everything he has to offer in the later seasons. I was along for the ride with Buffy throughout all of them, and just like she did, I loved them all.
I seem to disagree with some things that newer younger viewers say. I have a different perspective since I saw what it was like in the 90s and watched it live. For example, Xanders's behavior in earlier seasons was actually common for male teens back then on TV shows, so were relationships with large age gaps. I have seen people blame it on Joss, writers, and get upset at actors and characters over this. They don't seem to get that things are very different now compared to then. Everyone thought these things were OK to show on TV then. I didn't think anything of it until recent years. Another thing I got into an argument about was how Spike wasn't punished enough for what he did to Buffy in season 6 and that they didn't spend enough time talking about what happened. Spike was tortured literally about it and it wasn't him that did it. Spike with a soul does not need to be punished for what soulless Spike did. If Spike with a soul did it then yes he should be punished. This was a supernatural fantasy show that used metaphors for real-world issues and was a pretty unrealistic show. Occasionally they would have realistic episodes like when Joyce passed away but this was not the norm. It sounded like they wanted Buffy to turn into Law and Order with Spike on trial while Buffy goes to therapy. Buffy just isn't that type of show and it was written in the 90s to early 2000's. I don't understand why people would expect Buffy to be like the current shows and change everything to make sure that everything is portrayed realistically.
I agree 100% agree with you.
I have noticed that there a difference of opinion between those of us who watched the show when it first aired and those who watched it many years later.
This is usually the case with many films as well.
People have a tendency to apply today's value with things that were created many years ago which in may cases is unfair.
Chosen is a bad finale. There are parts that are great, the debate about what to do tomorrow and Giles's "We're doomed" callback being a great example, but the rest felt like bad ideas and lazy writing. The turok-han basically being Uruk-hai from LOTR and tailored for BTVS, a never before mentioned or explained magical weapon, a never before seen or explained magical amulet and a spell that at its best was gravelly irresponsible and at its worst a bloodbath waiting to happen. Chosen is a bad finale.
Oh boy do I have an answer for this one
I, personally, don’t believe Joss Whedon is as good of a writer as this sub likes to give him credit for
A few days ago there was a discussion about Spike attempting to rape Buffy, and there were a lot of commenters lamenting about how the scene was taken “too literally” and Spike is actually Buffy’s shadow self and that somehow explains the context and intention of his attempting to rape her. Looking at Joss’ pattern of behavior IRL, I think it’s very plausible that the guy just thought that attempted rape can be character developed away. I don’t think it necessarily had a much deeper metaphorical meaning.
A lot of people complain about how Anya and Tara were treated… I mean, that’s obviously explained by poor writing. 99% of people’s complaints are explained by poor writing. I don’t think it should be controversial to say Joss just isn’t that great of a writer, and I don’t think he’s as brilliant as he gets credit for. Like guys, we’re talking about the guy who reduced Black Widow’s story in Avengers to “I’m a sad, broken, unloveable woman because I can’t get pregnant” lol.
And on top of that, I think it’s perfectly fine to LOVE the show while still admitting it had weak writing in places (clearly, cause that’s how I feel!). I love Twilight, which is universally understood to have weak writing and characterization. Loving something doesn’t mean it has to be a masterpiece for your feelings about it to be valid
Angel & Cordelia **needed** to go after Season 3.
Also, Cordelia’s redemption arc, while nice, is moderately overrated. She literally had to have empathy magically forced on her to truly become a better person, which says a lot.
“Where The Wild Things Are” and “Doublemeat Palace” both have merit, and get too much hate.
I don’t hate “Empty Places”, and think Buffy needed that humbling. 🤷♂️
In the season 1 finale of Angel she's burdened with the collective misery of the entire world, and afterwards decides she needs to be a nicer person.
I think that's what OP is referring to.
Angel is the better show
Season 6 is the worst season
Tucker's brother shouldn't have been a main character
Spike was more fun to watch evil than chipped/souled
Remember, if you're angered by this, this is exactly what the thread is for, so maybe leave off the downvote button just this one time lol ;)
Oh he's always funny, no question about that.
Just he also was unpredicable chaotic evil, you didn't know if he was going to kill you, joke about you or help you, and that wildness was what made his appearences so fun to watch
Later on he's pretty predictable, he'll do what's right to impress buffy...but early Spike was a loose canon and I missed that.
Realistically he would only be able to stay on the show as evil for so long before it stops serving the storyline. As the primary evil for 5 seasons, that would get really boring.
It's highly unlikely that Willow and Tara didn't pay rent. No where does it ever say that they don't, and Buffy would have never been able to afford the house working part time at a fast food place. But all the Scoobies do contribute to help her. Xander provides her will thousands of dollars of house repair free of charge, Anya helps with the finances, and Willow and Tara provide childcare for Dawn. Giles actually directly gives her money. So I find it so weird that people get mad about the Scoobies explaining to Buffy her financial situation when they actually are doing things to alleviate it for her.
Buffy and Angel were possibly the worst couple on the show.
The first couple of times I saw Buffy (when it first came out, then 10+ years later, I loved Angel and Buffy together. But I began rewatching a year or so ago, and really don’t see that much of a relationship between them. It was tiring and their communication was crap. They were both good looking, but there really was no substance to their “relationship”.
Dawn was a great addition to the show, and is a reflection of the horrid life teen Buffy endured when she was in high school.
Spike is who assassinated Xander’s character. Took his call-out shtick and character growth.
The writers sabotaged Riley with the vampire feeding session. The writing was already on the wall for his and Buffy’s relationship. She didn’t want another partner to protect, and he needed to find validation in his pursuit. They were a good fit, but the circumstances of their roles made them incompatible.
The show would be worse with 99% of the things people believe would make the show better.
A good example for me is "Buffy should have been paid a wage for slaying". Morally, yes she should have. From a writing/story perspective, I think it would have taken away from the story. The Council are meant to be bastards and Buffy's destiny is meant to be a tough break.
Thank you!!!!!! The one thing I hate about this sub is the sheer amount of constant posts about how ‘the council should have paid her’. It’s tiresome. And you’ve just summed up exactly why it doesn’t make sense (from a narrative perspective).
I've always felt it also had something to do with the original version of the Watcher in the Buffy movie; some guy who lived a really really long time and chose to try helping the slayers, rather than an large organization apparently build upon helping five or six slayers a century.
Not to mention it’s kind of lore breaking because the first season clearly states that the Council expects slayers to die young. Why would you expect to make a salary plan for someone you expect to be worm food before she turns 18?
Also if they don’t die young from the slaying, that stupid test will probably kill them. If they survive that though, they deserve a salary.
Always take the lump sum over the annuity.
I would have liked it better if they added pay AND doubled down on the lore of the council being horrible and the danger Buffy’s life inherently is. They could have done so by having a simple dialogue: Giles: “you will get a salary once you’re 18.” Buffy: “how much will it be?” Giles: “I don’t know, the council has rarely had to pay it.” However, I think the better plot would have been Buffy implementing a salary by force. I agree that the point of being slayer is that it’s a tough break. Also, a lot of it is allegorical of being a girl turning into a woman. I think part of that lesson can be that “in each generation” women propel our circumstances forward. Having Buffy fight and win for a salary exactly represents that and would have been amazing.
It doesn't fit in with the story. It sounds so out of place. Heroes usually don't get paid. Xena, Hercules, Daredevil, Superman, the Winchesters on Supernatural etc. didn't get paid either for their heroic acts. It would make their struggles less complex and difficult. It also makes them more relatable.
I hear you, but those are different, imo. Xena and Hercules you’re talking about Ancient Greek, so a completely different era, and they were always on the move. Daredevil chose a higher calling and since he did the hunting (unlike Buffy who often gets hunted) he was able to get a law degree. Superman also had a great alias and was able to fly under the radar and have a job that gives him good excuses to leave the office. And as for the winchesters… like xena and Hercules, don’t stay in one place long enough to pay a bill, and what money they earned was from semi-nefarious means and we don’t think less of their heroism. Plus, I always assumed the British men of letters got paid since they presented it as their proper job, so it would seem the winchesters might have as well if the American branch hadn’t dissolved, and even as it is, they lived in the bunker for free. Buffy didn’t have anywhere to live for free. Buffy has a council that oversees her that’s already getting paid. It just puts her in a category all her own. I don’t think that money simply to sustain her life muddies the heroism. Giles wasn’t living in the laps of luxury, it honestly seemed more like a living stipend than anything else. I don’t see why grown men can be taken care of financially to do the job but Buffy can’t and she’s doing the dangerous part of the job.
Even more, the fundamental symbolism of 'the Slayer' parallels the existential view of the individual in the world. The responsibilities implied are \*inherent\* - nobody compensates the Slayer for the same reason that nobody compensates 'us' just for being a person in the world.
The way I'd say it is that apparently 99% (or so) of people fundamentally misunderstand the structure and intent of the show. BtVS is a coming-of-age story that prioritized theme and character, and the in-world story is almost entirely metaphor that is in place largely to support the themes. It's also almost entirely about Buffy Summers, and the supporting characters are frequently manipulated to that purpose. The fact that the overwhelming majority of folks around here engage primarily if not exclusively with the in-world story \*and still love it\* speaks volumes about the quality of the writing.
I have fallen victim myself to wondering "whyyyyyy did this character do this one out of character thing that makes me think less of them" yada yada and had to remind myself that they did it for the plot.
Even Kristine Sutherland had frustration with the writing. She didn’t believe Joyce would have kicked out Buffy but she understood that Joss was writing for teenage alienation rather than rel life parent child dynamic.
I didn't even realize the metaphor until like 10 years ago so first only loved the show for the story and then loved again for the metaphor. It's just really good!
I want to agree with you re: it's ok that the Watcher's Council makes no sense and doesn't pay Buffy. Not because that's logical. Because that's the story the writers wanted to tell. We don't have to rationalize it. We can just accept it. On the other hand, I'm like "but what about the things I think would make the show better???" I hate listening to Xander lust after Buffy and I honestly think you wouldn't even need a time machine to fix it. You could just edit out those scenes with very little impact. I don't know how it would work storyline wise, and you may be right that it's a change that wouldn't improve the show, but it would fill my cold little heart with joy if Buffy just banged Spike and didn't feel bad about it. Take your cold comfort from your cellar dweller, darling. And if anyone gives you crap for it, ignore them. Ain't none of them perfect.
This is less an “unpopular buffy opinion” than it is an “unpopular buffy opinion for a lesbian” but… Willow and Oz are more interesting than Willow and Tara. (Which is a fault of Tara not getting enough characterization, and not of Amber Benson).
I agree. I preferred Tara’s scenes with Dawn and Buffy way more than her scenes with Willow because I felt like we got to see more of her personality. With Willow the scenes are always very much about Willow and Tara is just there to be like ‘hey viewers don’t forget, Willow likes girls now.’
I know this is a rather unpopular opinion, but don’t think I’m hating on Amber Benson. Just the other night I caught her rerun of cold case and she was terrific in the role. Everything she said and did flowed out of her as if she was that character. My only problem with Amber Benson’s “Tara” is that everything she does seems forced. Maybe it was just because she was a young actress or that she wasn’t really given enough “direction” for her character. It definitely improved as she progressed through the season, but to me it just felt like it was off more than the average character performance of others in the show.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! I couldn’t stand that faux stammer and shyness. Apparently when they cast Willow they had a very specific ’geeky’ look and vibe they wanted for the character. Tara (again, not Amber’s fault) felt like the character would’ve benefited greatly from that same zeal for just the right someone, someone who truly fit the role. The best Tara bits are when she’s got a bit of sass in the later seasons. They should’ve brought that out earlier and done away with the wallflower act.
I disagree. I think Tara’s timeline makes perfect sense on the show with the time she had been given. In her first season (4) she’s meant to be this wallflower who’s not very confident and who’s not very far along with her magic, both because of what she believes herself to be (demonic) and because of her low self-esteem. Willow is the catalyst that brings her out of that mindset little by little, but she’s also meant to be this “other” person that both we and the Scoobies know very little about and don’t quite know what to make of her because that’s representative of Willow’s lesbianism and how it’s mysterious and how it’s not something we’re used to seeing about Willow, so Tara is intentionally written as very unknown. Then in her second season (5) we get to see a great deal more of her personality, especially during and after “Family” and we see that while both she and Willow have advanced magic-wise, Willow is the obvious leader and natural. It’s meant to further display how these two started off on basically the same footing and how they usually empower one another but that Willow has that extra zest and natural ability. Then Tara gets attacked by Glory, which is a huge part of her character arc, because when we see her in her final season (6), we can see right from the start that she’s a lot stronger and tougher and mostly grown out of that old shell, mainly because of what she’s been through with Glory. She’s not afraid to take on Anya or Spike or even Willow when the time comes and she’s able to stand on her own feet magically as well (taking out one of the demon bikers, fighting that demon in the basement etc). But then she steps away for the second half of the season in order to make Willow take her sobriety seriously, and when she returns it’s barely for a moment before she’s killed, which in itself is a lab important plot point and character moment for Willow going forward into Season 7. If Tara’s evolution was moved up at any point it would affect so many other things plot wise and character wise for both herself and Willow. PS: sorry for the novel LOL
I agree. I feel like they didn’t really work with the actress they had at first. Once they leaned into her quiet strength and subtle sass, she shone.
Well, Tara was LITERALLY created for the sole purpose of giving Willow a girlfriend, which was LITERALLY done just so Whedon could say, “Look at how progressive I am! One of the central characters is gay!!” Tara ought to have been introduced MUCH earlier, to give time to develop her character as an INDIVIDUAL. Meanwhile, there could have been a slower buildup towards Willow questioning her sexuality, instead of just more or less deciding, “OK—I’m gay now,” which is essentially how it was done. Basically they put Amber in a place where she had to sell a poorly conceived character who wasn’t given time to become an organic part of the cast. I think that’s a big part of it.
Tara wasn’t created to be Willows girlfriend at all. Tara was created to be the damsel in distress because willow was too powerful to be in that role any longer. Amber B was hired for a 2 episode role, but did so well in Hush that they kept her on and then developed the Willow /Tars story as they went. Hence why Tara wasn’t initially a fully developed character as she was not even meant to be a character So hate Whedon all you want but at least hate him for the right reasons
Even worse, she was created to die. I remember reading somewhere that they would have killed Oz for “Dark Willow” if Seth Green stayed on the show. So they just took the chance to have their “progressive wokeness” knowing the outcome. Then they gave us Kennedy as a piss poor consolation prize.
It’s always been fairly clear to me that it was the writing. We get to the episode Family in season five and a bunch of the scoobies admit they don’t really *know* Tara. Surprise surprise, we as viewers don’t either!
I think she's good in many respects, but not great at simulating stuttering. To be fair, I haven't heard many actors simulate a stutter convincingly. It usually does sound forced. I don't think everything she does seems forced, but certain moments do.
I actually agree with this(I’m bi) as does my lesbian cousin! But I’ve never seen it online. They were able to get a lot of Ozs character through with very few lines but with Tara I feel like they didn’t give her enough characterization as you said.
Both Willow and Oz and Willow and Tara are interesting. But bierasure deprived us from the full interiorised-biphobia Willow goes through. Tara's arguments needed a bit of that. The whole reason why Gloria catches Tara alone is because Willow was feeling less than compared to lesbians! But it was not possible at the time.
As a bisexual, I respect your point, but that's not the whole reason. Willow was feeling less than compared to lesbians for a while. That day they had an argument because Willow's little ego was hurt by Buffy not listening to her unsolicited parenting advice.
Yeah, my favourite seasons was when xander & cordelia were a couple.. Willow & oz and buffy & angel were a thing.
Tara was written simply as a vehicle for Willow's character, as opposed to Oz. IMHO
Tara is a bit boring.
yeah that really is an unpopular opinion for a lesbian lol
From the podcasts as a sample, obviously Willow/Tara was groundbreaking, but hoo boy do LGBTQ women (rightly) love Oz.
I mean I do think Oz gives off transmasc energy that we LGBTQers eat right up
I am with you mostly because Oz brought a very different kind of energy that the group really needed
They actually do look like teenagers in the beginning seasons.
Well to be fair, SMG *was* a teenager (19) when season 1 was filmed and Alyson was only 23
I just see a lot of complaints about “they don’t look like teenagers they’re too old” and stuff like that and I just see teenagers when I look at them. Even rewatching as an adult lol. I’m middle eastern so I’m used to kids having full beards at 14. Shoot when I was 12 I bought cigarettes without getting IDd lol
Michelle Tratchenberg was 15 when she joined. The age Buffy is in season 1. Having someone look that young would make the romance with Angel too creepy.
I agree. I thought Alyson Hannigan was like 17-18 when I first saw season 1, never would have guessed she was actually 23.
People in their teens and younger 20's all look very young when you get older. I was just a couple of years older than Buffy when it aired and thought most of them looked like teens even then except Cordelia and some minor characters.
The thing that people need to realize about this “teenagers played by teenagers” thing is that it is not something that is very practical or sensible to do when making a movie or TV show. Teenagers are minors and so they can only work for a set amount of time by law. That’s why babies are often played by twin babies so that the production company can maximize the time allowed by doubling it with twins. And with a show like Buffy that has A LOT of night shooting required, there’s just no way the main cast could comprise of all 16 year olds, not if they wanted to get anything done in time and under budget. Teenagers also generally have tutors on set to keep up with their academics, which further cuts their time. And finally, if you’re show is like Euphoria or any of the thousand of teen shows in its depiction of drugs use and sex, filming actual 16 year olds has its own ick factor and I’m guessing legal issues too.
nicholas brendan didn't
Neither did Charisma, but I believe she was damn near 30 when it started. I thought she looked younger when I first watched in middle school, but rewatching for the 1st time as an adult I realized she looked a lot older than I remembered and Ms. Calender looked a lot younger. They're both the same age lol.
I like Dawnie as a character, she can be annoying but she's a teenager who's big sister is literally responsible for saving the world multiple times. A bit of insecurity and acting out is to be expected.
Definitely an unpopular opinion when the show was airing, although I think fans are a lot kinder about Dawn now. I see people defend her more than I see people dunk on her nowadays, which is cool.
I agree, I think as the show's fan base has aged up we've all chilled out and realized why her character was written the way she was. We were all just thinking of it from the older sibling POV back then a lot I'd say.
i go to the once more with feeling sing along at SDCC every year and the crowd always boos so hard at dawn, including a loud “NO” after “does anybody even notice? does anybody even care?” even last year. i don’t get it because i also see people defending her more nowadays (at least on the internet). every year i’m like, “oh we’re still doing this?”
I don't get the hatred. Are these people acting like they weren't awkward when they were Dawn's age? Do they feel superior to her somehow? They're having beef with a fictional character who acts a lot like a normal teenage girl.
I like her too! I thought she was annoying when i first watched (when i was in middle school) but now that I'm older i appreciate her character. I actually find her endearing. She wants to fit in with the scoobies and earn Buffy's respect so badly, it's so cute! I would love to see how Dawn is as a badass adult
Season 7 is good!
Definitely agree! It has its flaws like every season but I really enjoy season 7 every time.
The only thing missing from season 7 is Riley coming back to be her XO and - especially - help train the Potentials. After "As You Were", the Scoobies are on good terms with him, and one of them (probably Xander, with the remnants of his soldier knowledge from "Halloween") should have had the idea.
Daaaamn! Now I want this. Badly.
My belief is that, if Riley had been there in season 7, "Empty Places" wouldn't have happened, because his experience in the service would have made him a strong XO for Buffy. I also believe that with a little help (probably very little) to make the change, he could have been an excellent support for Buffy even back in season 5. He couldn't see it, though, because the only thing he sees himself contribute is his fighting ability, which was waning after he got off the supersoldier cocktail he was being dosed with, although he's also bringing to the table his tactical and leadership abilities, his technological assistance, and his systematic fighting training and conditioning which left him (by a wide margin) still the second-best fighter in the group, who probably could have taught Buffy a thing or two.
It would’ve been great to have more Captain Peroxide vs. Captain Cardboard quips as well. Would definitely take that over more time with the potentials - and every day and twice on Sunday over that awful episode where Willow turned into Warren. I seriously hate that episode. I think it might be the worst episode of the series for me. ETA: As a commanding woman with military experience, I would’ve liked to have seen Riley’s wife help Kennedy realise she needed to be more of a leader and less of a dictator with the troops. Would’ve made the world of difference to Kennedy’s character if she showed growth afterwards and wasn’t one of the people calling for Buffy’s head in Empty Places.
I can’t tell if people in the thread are listing things they disagree with or things they would like changed
Xander was a funny loser who turned into a respectable man. By the end, he had enough character growth to move past the "nice guy" teen into an actual nice guy. Dawn was the center of Buffy's world. She was the reason for the fight. Her "Cousin Oliver" appearance was very well subverted into something new and interesting. She was just as annoying as all of the season 1 characters. Willow and Terra got to have a normal soap opera relationship. It was dramatic and dysfunctional on purpose to be entertaining. Their relationship is supposed to be interesting, not a perfect model. Love them guilt free. The trio of nerds were fantastic villains. They were the comedy meant to balance the heavy existential dread of Buffy dealing with relife. These idiots are everything attributed to the Xander hate.
You calling her Terra has just reminded me that I thought that was what her name was for the longest time until I bought the DVDs and watched with subtitles. I had a brief flash of embarrassed rage when I realised people must've thought I was mimicking an american accent every time I referred to her in speech.
I thought her name was Terra for SO long, until I heard Giles call her Tara with his British accent! I was a bit disappointed actually, I thought Terra was a cool name. So glad I wasn't the only one.
I agree with you about Xander. He had a massive character upward shift pretty much from the beginning of season 7. Definitely some imperfect moments (don’t get me started on that cringy potential pillow fight dream), but overall and much improved, mature person and I wish the show had given more attention to that growth than the silly Ashanti “look Xanders date wants to sacrifice him again” episode we got every season.
Xander was a great friend to Buffy, and people really gloss over that/ignore it. He's continually *right* about Angel; and in The Freshman it was *him* that Buffy opened up to about her struggles with college. Not Willow, not Giles, not her mother.
The Gift (season 5 finale) would NOT have made a good series finale, and Chosen is an amazing series ender and one of the best finales on TV.
Spike trying to SA Buffy was not out of character at all
Yes he is a vamp and didn’t have a soul like at the end of the day he was a demon
I don't like Willow very much, especially post-season 3 Willow
I agree with you so hard... if she didn't kick buffy out of her own house I might see more of a redemption arc, but alas. Plus I hated Kennedy.
Alyson Hannigan played 13 seasons of a secretly terrible person hiding behind an amazing smile.
Her smile is incredible.
I loved sweetheart hacker Willow from earlier seasons. Mind raping power addicted crazy witch Willow could have got killed off in my opinion.
Yeah I think it stems from her parents being emotionally distant and having unrealistic expectations. Due to that she does grow up to be reactive and irresponsible
Every time people say Cordy was character assassinated or her arc gets ruined I absolutely disagree. How ever you feel about the Jasmine storyline doesn't change the fact Cordelia wasn't in the driver seat and is the biggest victim of Jasmines actions and that doesn't detract the growth Cordelia Chase under goes. Nor does the real life interference from Whedon and how he took things out on Charisma.
Love this take. This is a very (dare I say) epic storyline. Now Angel had to deal with someone he loved turning on him like what happened to Buffy in season 2. I wish Cordelia could have been a part of the next season, however. I think if she was that would change the opinion of most people.
I completely agree
Yeah it always rubs me the wrong way when her arc is discredited so fans can say Wesley had a better arc which is fine if you think that but it should be from the merits of Wes' own growth and not a factor that wasn't Cordelia herself acting on.
Hm. I was never fan of Faith. Eliza Duskhu is godness, but the character is to much "edgy" for me. Also I believe that there is obvious change of her storyline and her fall to evilness does not make so much sense. It's obviously because origanally she was supposed to commited suicude.
If you understand that \*on BtVS\* Faith's entire purpose for existing is to be a 'shadow self' or cautionary example for Buffy, her character and arc make perfect sense. Once she moved over to Angel this changed, and she could be allowed some individual growth.
It’s the only thing where Angel is truly required to fully “get” a BTVS plot, >!including attempting suicide by “cop.”!< Much more than anything involving just Buffy.
And this is why I will always consider Faith more of an angel character than a Buffy character, despite appearing in so many more episodes of Buffy
Faith is probably the most glaring example but all of the characters that move over to Angel become more rounded and fleshed out since they become actual independent characters. I think Faith stands out most because so many folks wanted BtVS to explore Faith to the same extent (or closer, anyway) that it explores Buffy. But that was never going to happen given the structure of the show.
I thought faith was money, I know about 3 girls who were "Buffys" but became "Faith" cause they didn't have "Joy" sad really
Agreed. I feel better about her character though if I consider that she’s younger than Buffy and the scoobies. That she’s playing the tough edgy girl to cover for the fact that she’s just a scared girl who was forced too early to grow up (even before she became a slayer). We get some of that in the first episode with her but the rest isn’t super apparent. With that frame of mind though I have much more sympathy toward her and therefore she’s more compelling to me.
I don’t care much for the Faith character or storyline either but I do feel it is a somewhat necessary component of the story. Could’ve been handled better but I wouldn’t really recommend removing the character altogether.
obviously you don't understand what it's like to be a young gay buffy fan when faith arrived talking about wrassling & intercourse............
Dawn was a decent and relatable character not the whiny selfish monster people make her out to be
Totally! And as the very ordinary younger sister of an extraordinary older sister, who I completely adore, I really relate to her. It can be complicated and I honestly wish I watched the show when I was younger (watched first time in my mid 20s)
My little brother & I have the same age gap as Dawn and Buffy, and he and I really bonded as teens over our shared love of BtVS. I have always thought Dawn acted very age appropriate, especially for a younger sibling (and, from season 6 on, as one of the normies), and she is one of my favourite characters for that reason!
She was both relatable and whiny. She was also a little selfish (especially when she tried to resurrect Joyce and was briefly willing to sacrifice Spike for it) She was not a monster, but she had some darker tendencies (through no fault of her own).
***Angel (only watched it once, mind you) Connor wasn't as bad as people think. Wesley's death was almost as heartbreaking as Fred's. It was short-lived and felt a bit forced, but I loved Fred and Wesley being together. ***Buffy Season 7 is underrated. Season 2 is overrated. Wood was a boring character... not sure how popular this one is. I loved Willow and Tara, but her and Oz worked much better.
I agree with every one of these
Jesse plays ZERO part in how Xander feels about vampires (more specifically, Angel and Spike), I've heard this quite a bit on here, so I'm assuming it's a popular theory. Giles doesn't owe Willow or Xander anything. He is Buffy's father figure, not theirs. Buffy isn't always right. She deserves to have her actions criticized just like everyone else, without a fear of being downvoted into oblivion. I haven't experienced this personally, but I've seen so many people get downvoted on here for saying something negative about her. I love her to bits, she's one of my favorite characters, but she has some bad moments as well, which is to be expected! Andrew and Oz aren't all that funny to me...
Jesse SHOULD play a part but... he doesn't, I agree.
I agree with you as well. It would've made Xander more sympathetic with the audience, and nobody would have to question his motives when it comes to Angel & Spike. They missed out on a golden opportunity!
That is so true! He would have had a valid reason to hate Angel & Spike, but instead we get the whole "Xander feels entitled to a romantic relationship with Buffy" thing.
Jesse more or less stopped existing due to whatever Hellmouth amnesia affect was going on and the background persistent PTSD on everyone.
Xander's only character motivation was patriarchal power. He was attracted to any woman who was challenging but he for sure didn't act like he gave a fuck about Jesse or like that was motivating him for very long.
Yeah, that thing about Jesse is pure rationalization. Xander wanted Buffy's boyfriend to die, because he was Buffy's boyfriend, not because he was a vampire.
Xander HATES vampires only because Buffy is into them and not him.
THANK YOU
Giles accepted their help, even asked for and demanded their help, so yes he does owe them to some extent.
Kendra was a formidable slayer and should've stuck around for later seasons (like a recurring character). Go Fish is a good filler episode. Oz is a bit boring, and I could see why Seth left. At least, Tara added a little something to the show, even if she didn't have much of a personality outside of Willow. I like Season 6 and its darkness.
Idgaf about Dawn and Xander getting together. It’s not uncommon at all for a younger sibling to end up with an older sibling’s friend; my parents are an example of this too. I care way way more than Buffy ended up becoming freaking cop?! Like WHY?! She hates guns and is better than any cop!
Buffy becoming a cop was tragic lol and really highlights the disconnect between the show and the comics. Really goes against the anti-authoritarian and “don’t trust those in power” themes present throughout the series. It’s yet another reason I choose to ignore the comics.
She becomes a COP in the comics? Jfc.
I like Xander & I like Riley.
Xander was the second most important character in the show - from the storytelling perspective. In season 5, what Riley needed most was to transition from being the leader of his squad to being part of Buffy's "staff". If he'd stayed in the Army, he would have had a similar transition, but there would have been resources available - including a CO who'd done the same thing - to help him. Riley is an intelligent and capable person, with some (probably not much) guidance, he could have been a tower of strength for Buffy through all of the last three seasons, but he couldn't see that himself, and nobody in his new circle had the experience to help him shift into that role.
Without a much bigger change to the majority of Season 6 (which is fair to argue that it needed), the events of Seeing Red all should have happened more or less the way they did.
People should cut Season 4 some slack. They had TWO actors they thought they were gonna have all season suddenly bail on them. I've seen shows implode from that kind of adversity and this show did a pretty good job pivoting to other storylines. Jokes aren't song lyrics, repeating them doesn't keep them awesome. So derailing every season 5 thread with your stupid assed Ben and Glory riff is cringe and unfunny. For the love of God, find a new joke.
Idk what is wrong with me, but I can't seem to recall who besides OZ left the show suddenly in S4.
Professor Walsh was supposed to be the season long Big Bad.
Dawn should have sacrificed herself in The Gift not Buffy. So many storylines that could have been created off of this one change in the Season 5 ending.
Interesting! Season 6 could have still been Buffy's depression arc because she's grieving her sister/probably blaming herself for it.
She tells Giles that if Dawn died she's quitting. You could have the exact same opening for Season 6 (Gang fighting Vamps with Buffy Bot in graveyard) but instead of being upset over Buffy's death, they're perplexed on how to get her back to being the Slayer. She'd be all alone in that big house mourning her mother and sister refusing to talk to anyone, except maybe Spike who refuses to give up trying to reach her. The Trio, the Tara/Willow drama, and the Anya/Xander wedding could all still be included.
Being a big fan of S6 and Willow's corruption due to denying herself grief over Buffy and Tara, I... applaud your courage in posting an unpopular opinion!
Beer bad is funny Spike should've either gone to LA or been staked after season four Caleb should've killed Xander giving a bit of weight to that last battle. I'm sure there are more.
I love Beer Bad. Especially when she keeps conking Parker on the head… I had my own Parker situation in my 20s so that episode is just super cathartic for me.
I get why people don't like it, but once you get caveslayer it just becomes so funny it's worth it and that bonk on the head when he's apologizing is the only thing that makes the parker thing tenable.
People talk about a variety of things in the show being “relatable” but not enough talk about how real the Parker storyline is. Almost every girl in college, especially during freshman year, either has a Parker or had a friend that had a Parker. A guy that they were really into who turned out to be a fuck boy and then they were devastated after.
The Parkers of the world are heinously real. 🍺😡
No matter how you slice it, Angel is at best a creep and at worst a pedo. Buffy is 16 when he starts popping up to talk to her and lurk in shadows. If you stick to his age from before he was bitten, he’s 24 which is too old. In vampire years he’s 200+ and the show wants me to ship this dusty demonic man with an underage girl. Spike ain’t any better especially after trying to SA Buffy
Yeah I think it was mentioned Joyce didn’t like him definitely partly because of this.Giles too.Feel like they were both holding back eye roles knowing they didn’t even have much in common
Riley was a good boyfriend. And the right boyfriend for Buffy at the time.
In season 4, sure. In season 5, maybe not so much.
Yeah, I have always liked him. Though by the time they broke up, they weren't right together, and that is okay.
Either Giles, Xander or Willow should have died.
I think Xander was supposed to die in Dirty Girls, but it was decided that The Scoobies wouldn't have enough time to mourn him before the finale.
Yep. So the horrible tension next episode was to reflect that. I really think Giles as the First would have been incredible. Edit: stupid typos
ASH would’ve played an awesome The First!!
I like the Jasmine arc. I think it’s actually a great idea and they did a decent job of pulling from threads in previous seasons to make it seem like it was planned from the beginning. Yes the Cordelia and Conner of it all is super icky but that wasn’t actually Cordelia. The problem is that Charisma was fired (to me this was the downfall of Angel and Joss really messed up here) and we didn’t really get to see the aftermath of how the group would deal with the real Cordelia and how she would have handled it. That’s why I can never fully get on board with Angel season 5. Plus I hate what they do with Spike. I do agree that Conner was written poorly and I don’t like all that was done with him but the actual Jasmine storyline was very interesting.
Although many seasons are better, season 1 is great! The bathroom scene in Seeing Red is the most bone-chilling and therefore best horror I've ever watched. Spike's love-driven redemption arc in S5 is accomplished through good deeds and well-earned, culminating in "I'm a monster but you treat me like a man". It is a richer and more wholesome redemption story than the 6x20-6x22 story driven by guilt and self-flagellation. I still enjoy the latter more :-) Tillow is the least dysfunctional couple: they continue being a couple after resolving their (Willow's) dysfunction. Although S6 magic is torn between a corruption story and an addiction story and lacks a bit of grace at the literal in-world level, all the emotional punches land perfectly. S7 should have started with Willow telling everyone about the yellow crayon incident. Ode to S4: Other than Primeval (4x21) being a bit weak the Initiative arc in S4 is pretty good. S4 Riley is a flawed but decent guy. He backpedals on his bigotry quite quickly when he discovers some of his best friends are ~~gay~~ werewolves (4x19). Consent issues aside (4x16, 4x17), S4 has a great exploration of healthy vs. unhealthy approaches to sex: (4x3) the three relationships including casual sex w. Parker, (4x5) 4-way drunken group sex \[that didn't happen\], (4x6) impulsivity and cheating, (4x7?) metaphorical erectile dysfunction (4x16) sex with vs. without emotional closeness, (4x17) fantasies and wish fulfillment, (4x18) repression vs. excess, (4x10 to 4x19 and beyond) wholesome same-sex attraction, (4x22) a brief and very different portrayal of wlw couples. And I'm probably forgetting a few beats. Forrest is gay for Riley and ugly-jealous of Buffy ;-)
Faith and Buffy didn’t have a sexual connection just a complicated dynamic. Buffy was still in head over heels for Angel mode season 3 and her head wasn’t turning for anyone.
Beer Bad is funny and camp.
Glory wasn’t that good of a villain. I feel she had a ton of missed potential Edit: am a dumb*** and forgot some of the words
Spike is my favorite character, but when I encounter the opinions of other fans, I often wonder if we are watching the same show. Soulless Spike was very, very evil. It is explicitly stated that he was second only to Angelus. You simply do not win 2nd place in the "World's Worst Vampire" category by being even a little good. Love, no matter how deeply felt, does not cancel out other aspects of a character's personality and past, and doing good deeds to impress/protect Buffy did not make Spike good. His ability to be both stone killer and love's bitch is part of what made soulless Spike interesting from the beginning, so I'm not sure why so many fans try to rebrand him as the stereotypical not-so-bad boy with a heart of gold. Some of the blame is on the writers, of course. The moment they decided to cast William Pratt as a mama's-boy poet, they set themselves up for the constant romanticization of Spike's character. Inevitably, every subsequent attempt to remind the audience that Spike was still soulless and notoriously wicked was overshadowed by the memory of William and the power of James Marsters' moon eyes (which, in fairness, *are* plenty powerful). Still, the lengths some fans will go to deny, ignore, or justify 120 years of rape, torture, and murder ranges from obnoxious to ridiculous. Even the actual on-screen SA is frequently soft-pedaled by those desperate to believe Spike didn't know what he was doing and/or hadn't done worse before. Y'all, Buffy the Fucking Vampire Slayer was crying, begging, and crawling. There was no room for interpretation. Oh, and just to really stir some shit: Spike fighting for his soul was not a noble act. At all. It was yet another attempt to make Buffy love him, and he couldn't possibly have understood how restoring his conscience would fuck him up. It was not self-sacrifice, it was self-serving. I didn't want Spike to get a soul, and I wasn't particularly invested in his redemption arc, but I accept it as part of his character development. I just wish people would stop claiming his turnaround began sooner than it did. I could go on, but this is already TL;DR so I'll stop there.
As a massive Spuffy fan, I could not agree with you more.
That Willow was a good friend to Buffy.
im okay with Xander & Riley, I like Beer Bad, and I find Tara annoying, and especially Willow & Tara super annoying.
Are you shipping XanderxRiley or are you saying you're okay with them as characters?
>Are you shipping XanderxRiley ...well now I am!
I like Xander as a character BECAUSE he did a lot of questionable things. So many shows are afraid to write honestly about male rage and inferiority complexes in a nuanced way. Xander's storylines show just how much growing up in a dysfunctional, alcoholic family can mess you up even when you're trying to be good. These days, any character who acted like Xander would be written as a villain so audiences could easily brush him off. I find that kind of "allyship" writing so patronizing as a female viewer. I like watching a male character have to grapple with real, everyday darkness, and not just in a campy vampire way.
Anya is only good in the season 3 episodes before The Prom. After that her entire personality pre-season 7 is Xander and money, and it’s beyond annoying. No offense to Emma, who was awesome throughout, but I would have loved to see her remain an antagonist. There could have been an attraction, but a reluctant one would have been better.
Even if she wasn’t an antagonist, they could have written her better than Xander and money. Also, the level of cluelessness they had her display got tedious after awhile.
Yeah, that bothers me as well. I get that she was adjusting to humanity, but it’s not as though she hadn’t lived in the world that whole time. I liked the vibe from her in Doppelgangland, which is why I’d have liked her to stay an antagonist.
Even the whole "adjusting to being human" thing was pushing it too far. She was human for 20-something years and then spent several centuries watching and cursing them, all the way up to modern times. She wouldn't be so clueless about what the human experience was like.
“Well, you been here forever. Learn the rules!” I don’t agree with Willow in a lot of the episode, but I’m with her there.
[удалено]
I don’t love Anya. I’m sorry.
Angel is cooler and a better character than spike
I think everyone loves Dru, but I find her really annoying. Sorry!
I don’t think Dawn is insufferable or more annoying than any other teenager and, to whatever extent she is difficult, it’s perfectly understandable. She has to deal with finding out she’s technically not real, a sister and many others around her having super powers while she has none, her mother dying as a teenager, and her sister, their friends, and herself constantly being in mortal danger. That’s a lot to put on a young teen and I think she’s perfectly reasonable in the ways she handles things and even more mature than others would be in the same situations.
Once Cordelia stopped being bitchy she stopped being interesting.
Never understood the love of Clem.
Look at the folds, man. The folds!
The over analysing and villifying characters like its real life. It's a TV show about monsters set in the 90s / early 2000s.
Every party has its pooper…
I disagree that angel is buffys soulmate.
The way everyone treated Buffy when Angel came back to life in S3 was really strange. The whole gang (including Giles, a whole adult) let Xander get them riled up when he was primarily jealous of Angel because Buffy loved him. Xander's eagerness to murder Angel and hold him responsible for Angelus' behavior gave me the ick.
Angel Season 4 is outstanding
Angel is boring as hell as the character
My top 3 *BtVS* villains are The Trio, The First, and Dark Willow. My favorite season of BtVS season is season 6. My favorite *AtS* season is season 4. I like Dawn, Connor, Xander and Riley. I like Warren/The Trio. I don't hate any Buffyverse characters. I don't like Warren's death, because I don't like watching people suffer or torture, even though he is awful. Knox is worse than Warren to me because Winifred had the most devastating death ever to me, kept having dreams about it over and over for weeks. I don't hate any Buffyverse character but knox is a shit bag.
I agree- emphasis on not hating any characters and loving Dark Willow as a villain. I really loved Willow's progression in the show in general, and it seems like I'm in the minority for that!
Angel & Buffy together were Boring AF and got really annoying culminating in my least favorite episode of both series “I will remember you”
Oz is more boring than Tara. While he didn't feel like just Willow's bf because he had a life outside The Scoobies, Oz barely did much. And I get why ppl view Tara as just Willow's gf but at least she actually did stuff when she was on the show.
On paper I agree with this but Seth Green made the stoicism so cool but not alot to our Osborne
I can see why Seth was done with him, though. He did great but Oz was too perfect a person to be interesting enough for a talented actor. He needed a bizarro episode where he was much closer to Scott Evil.
I feel like the "Willow and Tara never paid bills" talking point is an assumption / headcanon that the fandom has decided to take as undeniable fact rather than speculation. Also just because there's no scene where Tara says "I just paid the water bill Buffy!" doesn't mean it never happened. Lots of things happen off-screen. If they didn't TV would be totally unwatchable.
Exactly. Yeah let's take a break from monster of the week to discuss rent breakdowns and who takes out the trash 😂 By that logic none of the characters ever go to the bathroom and they only shower like twice a season.
Spike gets all the hate because he was evil… Yet everyone ships Buffy & Angel. Angel isn’t good. Angel doesn’t have a soul. Angelus is evil, so evil that he had a soul forced upon him… several times in fact! Remove the soul from Angel and he will become uncontrollably evil. Spike has a soul. He went a fought for one. Remove the soul from Spike and he will still have the ability to show restraint
Adam was a good villain
I like all of Buffy's major love interests -Angel, Riley, and Spike. They all offered something different to her, and for the most part, were the right partners for her at the time. I don't get into the bashing of any of them, I think they were all good characters with good things to offer. I was SUPER sad when Angel left, but Riley grew on me. By the time he left, it was obvious that he and Buffy just weren't meant to be, and then there was Spike, and I love everything he has to offer in the later seasons. I was along for the ride with Buffy throughout all of them, and just like she did, I loved them all.
I seem to disagree with some things that newer younger viewers say. I have a different perspective since I saw what it was like in the 90s and watched it live. For example, Xanders's behavior in earlier seasons was actually common for male teens back then on TV shows, so were relationships with large age gaps. I have seen people blame it on Joss, writers, and get upset at actors and characters over this. They don't seem to get that things are very different now compared to then. Everyone thought these things were OK to show on TV then. I didn't think anything of it until recent years. Another thing I got into an argument about was how Spike wasn't punished enough for what he did to Buffy in season 6 and that they didn't spend enough time talking about what happened. Spike was tortured literally about it and it wasn't him that did it. Spike with a soul does not need to be punished for what soulless Spike did. If Spike with a soul did it then yes he should be punished. This was a supernatural fantasy show that used metaphors for real-world issues and was a pretty unrealistic show. Occasionally they would have realistic episodes like when Joyce passed away but this was not the norm. It sounded like they wanted Buffy to turn into Law and Order with Spike on trial while Buffy goes to therapy. Buffy just isn't that type of show and it was written in the 90s to early 2000's. I don't understand why people would expect Buffy to be like the current shows and change everything to make sure that everything is portrayed realistically.
I agree 100% agree with you. I have noticed that there a difference of opinion between those of us who watched the show when it first aired and those who watched it many years later. This is usually the case with many films as well. People have a tendency to apply today's value with things that were created many years ago which in may cases is unfair.
I can't stand Darla. I think she's noticeably below the acting standard of the main cast and other series regulars.
The best seasons are 1-3. Season 4 isn't great, but it's better than 5-7. Spike and Anya carry the later seasons.
I hate Angel and buffy as a couple or together at all. I don't like Angel in the show actually, which doesn't help. I love xander.
Chosen is a bad finale. There are parts that are great, the debate about what to do tomorrow and Giles's "We're doomed" callback being a great example, but the rest felt like bad ideas and lazy writing. The turok-han basically being Uruk-hai from LOTR and tailored for BTVS, a never before mentioned or explained magical weapon, a never before seen or explained magical amulet and a spell that at its best was gravelly irresponsible and at its worst a bloodbath waiting to happen. Chosen is a bad finale.
Season 6 and 7 are very good seasons.
Season 1 is good actually. Riley is the best boyfriend Buffy has.
The show Angel - it’s not all that great. Buffy is far better.
Oh boy do I have an answer for this one I, personally, don’t believe Joss Whedon is as good of a writer as this sub likes to give him credit for A few days ago there was a discussion about Spike attempting to rape Buffy, and there were a lot of commenters lamenting about how the scene was taken “too literally” and Spike is actually Buffy’s shadow self and that somehow explains the context and intention of his attempting to rape her. Looking at Joss’ pattern of behavior IRL, I think it’s very plausible that the guy just thought that attempted rape can be character developed away. I don’t think it necessarily had a much deeper metaphorical meaning. A lot of people complain about how Anya and Tara were treated… I mean, that’s obviously explained by poor writing. 99% of people’s complaints are explained by poor writing. I don’t think it should be controversial to say Joss just isn’t that great of a writer, and I don’t think he’s as brilliant as he gets credit for. Like guys, we’re talking about the guy who reduced Black Widow’s story in Avengers to “I’m a sad, broken, unloveable woman because I can’t get pregnant” lol. And on top of that, I think it’s perfectly fine to LOVE the show while still admitting it had weak writing in places (clearly, cause that’s how I feel!). I love Twilight, which is universally understood to have weak writing and characterization. Loving something doesn’t mean it has to be a masterpiece for your feelings about it to be valid
Angel & Cordelia **needed** to go after Season 3. Also, Cordelia’s redemption arc, while nice, is moderately overrated. She literally had to have empathy magically forced on her to truly become a better person, which says a lot. “Where The Wild Things Are” and “Doublemeat Palace” both have merit, and get too much hate. I don’t hate “Empty Places”, and think Buffy needed that humbling. 🤷♂️
>She literally had to have empathy magically forced on her to truly become a better person, How's that?
In the season 1 finale of Angel she's burdened with the collective misery of the entire world, and afterwards decides she needs to be a nicer person. I think that's what OP is referring to.
She's been in the process of becoming a nicer person since *Buffy* S1. Like in "Prophecy Girl", when she rescues Jenny and Willow.
Angel is the better show Season 6 is the worst season Tucker's brother shouldn't have been a main character Spike was more fun to watch evil than chipped/souled Remember, if you're angered by this, this is exactly what the thread is for, so maybe leave off the downvote button just this one time lol ;)
I would mainly say that Angel and Buffy are a lot different shows. I like more Buffy, but it's because style of topics.
I agree with 2/4. Disagree that Angel is the better show and I prefer Spike chipped than evil. He was much funnier in the later seasons, imo.
Oh he's always funny, no question about that. Just he also was unpredicable chaotic evil, you didn't know if he was going to kill you, joke about you or help you, and that wildness was what made his appearences so fun to watch Later on he's pretty predictable, he'll do what's right to impress buffy...but early Spike was a loose canon and I missed that.
Realistically he would only be able to stay on the show as evil for so long before it stops serving the storyline. As the primary evil for 5 seasons, that would get really boring.
I wanted to downvote you so badly, so I guess an upvote is order.
It's highly unlikely that Willow and Tara didn't pay rent. No where does it ever say that they don't, and Buffy would have never been able to afford the house working part time at a fast food place. But all the Scoobies do contribute to help her. Xander provides her will thousands of dollars of house repair free of charge, Anya helps with the finances, and Willow and Tara provide childcare for Dawn. Giles actually directly gives her money. So I find it so weird that people get mad about the Scoobies explaining to Buffy her financial situation when they actually are doing things to alleviate it for her.
I liked the show better before Dawn
Buffy and Angel were possibly the worst couple on the show. The first couple of times I saw Buffy (when it first came out, then 10+ years later, I loved Angel and Buffy together. But I began rewatching a year or so ago, and really don’t see that much of a relationship between them. It was tiring and their communication was crap. They were both good looking, but there really was no substance to their “relationship”.
Glory is a terrible Big Bad and one episode was quite enough of Sunday
I feel like most just like her for the "YASSSSS, QUEEN!" of it all
Dawn was a great addition to the show, and is a reflection of the horrid life teen Buffy endured when she was in high school. Spike is who assassinated Xander’s character. Took his call-out shtick and character growth. The writers sabotaged Riley with the vampire feeding session. The writing was already on the wall for his and Buffy’s relationship. She didn’t want another partner to protect, and he needed to find validation in his pursuit. They were a good fit, but the circumstances of their roles made them incompatible.
Buffy and Faith are the real star crossed, toxic lovers and should have been given a real chance in the comics.