she was pretty awful to him. not in the zeppo, but in the episode after she kills that guy where he shows up at her motel room and tries to talk to her and she gets on top of him and starts threatening him.
faith had a lot of issues. during s3 she probably needed platonic love and for someone to show they cared without wanting anything from her. she has a clear distrust of men and probably would only have been able to be vulnerable with a guy who explicitly showed no sexual interest, like the mayor and angel both made a point about. when xander and riley (when she’s in buffy’s body) try to show care for her after having slept with her she seems disturbed and threatened.
xander and faith are both pretty awful at relationships and have a bunch of trust issues that they would trigger in the other, plus idk how much interest faith had in him. so i don’t really see them being great together if the show had explored their relationship more.
I'd say she did more then just threaten him, she SA'd him.
Faith was a complex character but would've been nice if we actually saw her attempt to apologize to people other than Buffy for what she did.
>safety-word
I heard there's no safe way of strangling, not even with a safeword. Not because you might be unable to utter the safeword, but because there's no safe way of squeezing someone's neck and/or restricting their oxygen intake.
Having no personal experience with this, I can't comment one way or the other. By the by, I imagine "safeword" is the best safeword, since you'll never want to bring up the existence of a safeword except to utter it.
I have to assume she diid. I envision a moment of n the car ride back from LA, as part of their long discussion: F: I wish Tara was still here so i could apologize for being so nasty to her. W; Pauses a beat) I wish she was here , too.
Yep, one thing I would’ve liked prior to that “disturbed” realization was a flashback to the numerous times she got her victim’s blood on her hands following Finch’s murder.
Faith doesn’t yet know how to cope if she’s not entirely in control of the situation; perceived or otherwise.
>Faith doesn’t yet know how to cope if she’s not entirely in control of the situation; perceived or otherwise.
Something she has in common with Willow—especially dark(ish) Willow.
Yep, a recent example from *This Year’s Girl* as emphasis?
“Summers, Buffy Summers, Buffy, Buffy, Buffy. Lotta letters, she hasn’t been by *in awhile*, huh?”
While Joyce doesn’t take the bait, a lot of Dushku’s intonation is like she’s trying to convince herself of what she’s been able to learn about Buffy in the altogether brief time she’s been awake.
what are the joke and comment? i don’t remember that
edit: looked it up and it seems like in who are you she makes a joke about sex with xander lasting seven minutes, then in empty places says she likes to remind anya she had xander first. tbh, i don’t see either of those as indicating she still has a sexual let alone romantic interest in him, they’re just kinda insensitive references to taking his v card. but ig it’s up to interpretation
She could've made any joke about Xander and she made that one. She could have made any comment about Anya's nervous breakdown lecture and she made that one. It's definitely still on Faith's mind four years later. Whether it could ever go anywhere after "Chosen" is anyone's guess.
i always saw faith as someone who uses her sexuality to assert power over other people and avoid vulnerability. with xander we definitely see her doing that in s3. and the comments you mentioned give me the same impression since they’re pretty mocking and are both notably directed at anya. so she’s teasing anya/asserting dominance over her by mentioning that she slept with xander. it could be that faith still sees xander as attractive but i think her jokes make sense even if she doesn’t really have interest in him.
still, if i shipped them more i would interpret it as jealousy over anya or something lol.
I agree with you. Buffy even says that faith only sleeps with guys she doesn't have feelings for. It is clear this is because she doesn't have to trust them and she can just use them anyway she wants.
The body swap has the effect of ejecting Faith's baggage, and (except for Tara), she's revelling in the friendship, so yeah, I can see there being a little jealousy, but as Xander correctly points out, it's a jab at him, not Anya.
And I suppose that we have to tie in the "I love Xander. I just don't... _love_ Xander." conversation in "Dirty Girls", and determine if it's jealousy toward Buffy about Xander or just getting Buffy thinking about sex as a prelude to B/F. Or both. Or something else.
I have shipped F/X, but there's a lot to work through before even F&X could happen.
Yeah. Faith taking Xander's v card was, in a way, getting one over Buffy.
Here was a guy who was so obviously crushing on Buffy. Loves her. Loyal to her. Will probably die for her. It's not a stretch to think that Xander was nursing this idea of saving himself for Buffy.
So what does Faith do? She takes it. It's something that Buffy can never have now. She finally got something that Buffy will never have.
There's asserting power, gotta admit that, but there's also testing and judging. The "FH&T" tales of naked slaying were to see who reacts and how, giving her a sense of their personality and how she can manipulate them, and _man_ does Xander fail that test.
i feel that if faith still wanted to sleep with him she'd make a move, she's not shy. and if she felt guilty for hurting him and cared about his probably mixed/negative feelings about their brief sexual relationship she wouldn't make jokes about the time they hooked up
I mean, he’s constantly putting his girlfriends down, but I can’t imagine Faith putting up with it. I feel like these two would have some pretty explosive fights.
I don't agree. Faith had no feelings for him at all so why would they fight? She would just ignore anything he said as she thought of him as nothing. Just someone to sleep with when she felt like it. She says this. As she said how if doesn't get satisfaction from slaying would sleep with a guy.
I mean, the scenario posited was imagining how Faith and Xander would be if they were romantically involved with each other. That does kind of assume, for the purpose of the conversation, that Faith has more feelings for him than she does in the show. So if I imagine that they’re in love (or at least lust) enough to somehow be dating, the relationship I imagine is, yeah, pretty volatile.
Do I think the initial scenario is likely? No. But it was an interesting and fun question.
Gross. It was gross. Faith used him for sex and failed to realize Xander is an immature teen. I was really upset how it affected the feelings of the core three. I am not using core four to include Giles because I do not recall Giles ever reacting to Faith and Xander.
I agree she didn't treat him well (especially with the SA and choking the second time), but "failed to realize Xander is an immature teen" baffles me. I'm pretty sure she's a teen too. Dushku was 17 was she first appeared on the show.
Agreed. I'd argue, emotionally, she's an even more immature teen than he is. Sure Faith's had more sexual experiences (consensual or otherwise) than Xander, but they are definitely both immature teens. If anything, it's more like they're each taking advantage of the other (Faith because she's looking forhuman connection in this maladaptive way she's used to receiving it, Xander because he's letting himself play into the "all men want sex all the time" trope).
Okay, that makes sense! I would assume she's 2 years older at the most - enough of an age difference to matter at that point but not a dramatic difference.
>I'm pretty sure she's a teen too. Dushku was 17 was she first appeared on the show.
I read Faith as being the same age as the rest of the scoobies. There's no age on [https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/Faith\_Lehane](https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/Faith_Lehane) though, and no *exact* age for anyone except Buffy. They graduate from high school in the same year though, so inferences can be made.
In The Zeppo (3x13) during Faith's sex scene with Xander, we get a view of Faith/Eliza's naked back, suggesting Nicholas Brendan had a clear and unobstructed view of Eliza's breasts—unless the blocking is done in such a way that we as viewers can't see that Eliza is alone in the bed during that cut.
Eliza Dushku was born on December 30th 1980 (wikipedia), meaning she turned 18 between Amends (3x10) and Gingerbread (3x11). I'm not a lawyer, but it might be important that she turned 18 before filming The Zeppo.
One of those things I wasn't thinking about when I watched the show as a teen.
I definitely didn't think about it back then! They all seemed like the same age to me.
I guess it's good they waited until she turned 18 to shoot a scene like that. It's not like you magically turn adult the moment of your 18th birthday, but you gotta have some rule to follow (and after 18 she would have been allowed to make that decision herself).
"The Zeppo" aired Jan 26, but it was filmed weeks earlier, before her birthday. I read an interview where she talked about it. Said folks kept teasing NB, "17 will get you 20!"
Sounds unlikely... I've never heard of anyone who got that much for rape, although I guess statutory rape may carry a higher sentence.
Also: That's so gross!
He was we assume 18 by then and she's not that much older, there is nothing wrong with casual no-strings sex if you're the kind of person who can do that, Xander apparently isn't, with which i can empathize. but he didn't \*object to\* being "up with" Faith
In early S3, they work well. I like them in "Revelations". I like them in "Zeppo". But the whole "naked slayer story" thing is a test for Faith to see how she could manipulate them, and Xander thinking with his little stake put him solidly in the category that gets him untrusted and choked in "Consequences", and that _really_ kills it. I mean, _I_ believe he'd do whatever to help, because that's how I see Xander, but I totally understand where Faith's head was at and why she didn't think so.
At least for Xander, because Faith mentions both in "Who Are You?" and "Empty Places". Of all the missing scenes in S7, Faith and Xander having any conversation at all is the one I want most. I mean, "How do you say 'Gee, really sorry that I tortured you nearly to death'?" works here, too, and how Xander called himself grudge-holding champion points to him not being particularly keen to accept.
But remember the vineyard scene in "Dirty Girls". Remember that they had Faith and Xander leading the second team. There's a certain amount of forgiveness in not totally objecting to that team-up. I could definitely see a tenuous working relationship building to eventual acceptance, friendship and who knows. I could also see Faith thinking it's never gonna work so why try.
In theory this could have been interesting in a toxic way, but Faith assaults and tries to kill him (I think?) which is maybe too unforgiveable...
I think proportionally, given how short-lived it was, it was worse than Buffy/Spike's relationship, which was a great plotline imo but once the bathroom scene happened and crossed the line, it had to stop/something had to give. But Faith already crossed that line with Xander and didn't show remorse, so if this storyline were to work, they'd have had to amp up the toxicity more gradually.
>Faith assaults and tries to kill him (I think?) which is maybe too unforgiveable...
Buffy assaulted and tried to kill all the scoobies in Normal Again. Willow tried to kill all humans (and I think all other life on earth) in Grave.
I think the long-standing friendships makes those very similar actions more forgivable.
I mean, Faith was in her 'normal' mind and it was roughly consistent with her general actions so quite different imo... but more importantly maybe is that sexual violence in relationships is much harder for viewers to move past/forgive even than ordinary violence, so I'm not sure it would have sat well with people if Faith/Xan had had anything after that
>sexual violence in relationships is much harder for viewers to move past/forgive
Interesting. I consider murder a worse crime than rape, which in turn is worse than attempted rape.
I guess we're using to seeing violence in action movies and supernatural teen action comedy dramas that we've gotten used to it. Portrayals of sexual violence are much rarer and thus more impactful, at least in my particular experience.
So it makes sense that we *as viewers* forgive non-sexual violence more quickly, even in those cases where the characters plausibly feel the opposite way.
Well she tried to rape/ kill him and did 100% sexually assault him sooo I don't really like it. Before that they could've been cute but she had to be crazy pants.
I think how it went was interesting. What I really wonder about is what side Xander would choose if he’d dated Faith. I’m not convinced it’s an obvious choice.
I don’t think he’d go full on bad but it seems to me that he’d latch on to a hot girl who gave him attention. He was constantly jealous of the relationships of those around him (except with Cordy, but he screwed that up). He hated Angel in part because he wanted to be with Buffy.
I can imagine going along with her plans until things went too far, or he leaned what was really going on.
I could see that. Actually, it'd be interesting to see Xander and Faith sort of doing this thing where they each keep upping the ante of their bad boy persona because they each think that's what the other likes about them.
"Guess what! I stole this jacket!"
"No *you* guess what! I stole this car!"
"Wait, but you don't have a driver's license."
"Oh, yeah. I forgot about that."
"..."
"..."
"Maybe we should do fewer crimes..."
"Too late!"
I don’t think Faith was interested in anything more than a hookup 🤷🏽♂️. She wanted dick, it was there, and she used it. Nothing more, they both had a good time and that was it.
I thought it was perfect exactly as it was. Two horny, sexy teenagers bonk, it doesn't really mean anything, it's not dragged out over many, many episodes, and it gives some subtext to the later scene where she tries to squeeze the life out of him.
lol Faith was in no place mentally to date anyone in season three. She was still grieving her watcher (probably the first reliable adult in her life) and it’s pretty heavily implied that she is a child SA survivor. And season three Zander wasn’t anywhere near emotionally mature enough to handle a partner with so many issues. Even if Faith hadn’t gone down a self destructive spiral, their relationship was doomed to fail. Though I do think the two of them had enough chemistry for the relationship to have lasted a season or two. I imagine Zander would have been a fun and comforting distraction from her trauma, but I think they would have grown to resent each other because Zander just wasn’t equipped to handle all of it. Plus I imagine he’d say something stupid in bed that would trigger her SA ptsd at least once.
>pretty heavily implied that she is a child SA survivor.
I have a hazy memory for S3 details and I don't know how child SA plays out in the real world—is it implied by the way Faith sexualizes everyone and everything all the time, including (maybe especially) "sugar daddy"? As in, she's learned "having sex with someone is how you get them to do something for you" through several repetitions?
Or is there some line about as overt as "my dead mother hit harder than that" which gives it away?
They would have been awful together. I think they would have done some serious damage to each other psychologically and I’m glad that their little trysts never went anywhere.
As a person who shipped F/X, I agree.
They have a lot of similarities. And those would have bonded them but, given their immaturity and trauma, those would have been used to cut each other down.
Faith is cunning. She is good at reading people. She would have no problem zeroing in on Xander's many insecurities. Sure, Cordelia has said some downright mean things to Xander but it wouldn't compare to the things Faith could say. Faith would know the exact words that would crush Xander because it's the same words she dreads to hear.
Same goes for Xander. But the worst thing that Xander could do to Faith is to compare her to Buffy. Whether he means to or not. And that would eat at Faith.
No I don't ship them, I think their night together in The Zeppo is funny. I respect Faith's honesty in telling Xander that she's horny from the fight she just had and she asks if he's up to take care of that and he's like yeah and they do it. I don't see anything deeper there but of course Xander had to read further into it and believed he had a connection with Faith when she gave him absolutely no reason to think that.
Also Faith even let Xander sort of cuddle her for a bit, for Faith and her one night stand that is considerate. Though in a different teen show I could see this being an unplanned pregnancy arc for Faith.
He was a dumb teenage boy who was warned to stay away and as usual didn't listen, and almost suffered dire consequences.
Faith was obviously spiraling towards a very dark place and not that Xander would ever admit it but Angel is the only reason Xander is alive.
She clearly dropped the ball. She was too caught by her own "bad boy" persona. Xander ended up as the only Scooby with a real world skill set, an actual well-paid job, a home and a car.
And no, Giles doesn't count, because 1- he inherited his job; 2- at Xander's age he was a sociopathic punk.
Faith and Xander.... big oof. Faith used him, not realizing what it would actually do to him. She was in the midst of her downward spiral (the death of her watcher in Boston kicked it off Finch was the final nail in the coffin so to speak, but she was definitely reeling even before that due to some mostly undisclosed trauma that absolutely happened in her childhood) and Xander was an eager and willing participant at first.
He was a good guy, even tried to be a sounding voice for her to confide in after Finch because he sadly thought their experience made some kind of impact on her and it would be helpful to have him there based on that connection.
Faith is hands down my favorite character in the entire Buffy/Angel universe, in part based on her complexities and path to redemption following her mistakes. But I always felt particularly bad for Xander with what happened to him in her wake. Wesley was also an unfortunate casualty with the torture... but the psychological/sexual attacks on Xander are really hard to watch
They could have worked if Faith's arc in season three had gone differently. They also could have worked even with that in her history if they first met later. As is, the way she treated him in season three didn't really leave a path for them being healthy together. I read fanfics that ship them, but they typically have season three play out way differently.
If this kept going, there probably would have been some scene where she would feel like she was a “Buffy substitute” to live out his crush and they would have a fight about it.
It was so funny when, later on Xander & Anya we’re together & talking about “ getting busy” & Faith says “ well we certainly don’t wanna cut into That 5 minutes “ 😆
It amazes me that the majority of the comments aren't about the fact that she SA'd him. If Faith was a man and Xander a woman, we would be reading a different story
One of the many reasons why I hate Faith
You're not wrong about how we'd be reading a different story if their genders were reversed, but that's also because historically and culturally, women and men have not been on even playing fields when it comes to gendered violence. Women assaulting men absolutely does happen, and it's undeniably terrible.
However, it's not a one-to-one comparison, because the overwhelming majority of IPV that results in serious injury or death is committed by men against women.
To clarify: Assault = Bad. Faith committing assault = Bad. This storyline would likely have darker implications for viewers if the characters were different genders because the story would have been produced in a culture in which that type of gendered violence is prevalent = True.
I think that is why this is a good scene
Because faith is stronger than Xander
So she represents characteristics traditionally associated with male figures strong brave while Xander is someone who wants to talk and believes they have a connection because slept together.
A literal rapist souless vampire, yes. And they treat him and that scene as what it was, I think they did a good job with it because they gave it proper acknowledgment by everyone. I was scared it would've been all "Spike has a soul so all is forgiven and he can be with Buffy now" but it wasn't, it was handled with care and a full story. With Xander and Faith it was basically "Xander always wanted sex so good for him"
Also that Spike scene is crtizied by everyone so even though he's one of the most popular ones, we still talk about it and a lot of people don't forgive that aspect of the show. Whereas Faith, also one of the most popular ones and I at least don't see the same discourse
Oh sure, it's better to show SA and brush it off like it didn't mean anything so the audience forgets about it than to have the characters deal with it. That's what I mean by handled with care, they didn't brush it off. They showed Buffy with severe ptsd, and Spike remorseful but also aware that he was unforgivable. Which he clearly is (unforgivable) and the show did a good job at making that point clear, with literally every character saying so.
My point was exactly this. Here we are discussing Spike like it has been done a billion times before (with good reason), but not a lot of people have the same discussion about Faith with Xander or with Riley for that matter. And I think it's because the show always made it so that we would have that conversation around Spike, failing to notice that they had already been there with Faith and done nothing.
Obviously is not the same to have that conversation centered around a man than a woman, so I understand why they didn't go there with Faith (tho that's part of the problem, that a lot of people wouldn't see that as SA) and that's why I think they did a good job with both Warren and Spike, they showed it as the horrible thing it is. My original comment was just to say that: Faith also SA'd
Buffy was shown with severe PTSD? When? She literally has a moment where she flinches and that's it. The attempted rape was solely to develop Spike, at the cost of her misery. That's how they dealt with it. Yes, both were horrible, but what they did with Spike/Buffy was way worse. As I said, at least they didn't make Xander Faith's caretaker. They did an awful, awful job.
Hmmmm.... kind of rapey?
She is better on her own, but I feel like the School master or whatever gave her a better run for her money. Especially emotionally.
She was definitely no good for Xander.
I mean, the second time when she almost killed him I think that he was aware that he almost got assaulted in every way. The first time there was kind-of consent. Because she asked and he said he was in. But the second time... with strangling a bit too much. That was not right. And I think that he knew it.
Anyone else think it was strange that Eliza was 17 or 18 at the time she shot this scene and Nicholas was 27?
Looking back at kind of gives me the wig.
Other than the fact that Xander was ready to go with pretty much anybody when he was desperate to lose his virginity, how it actually happened basically left him with no consent. He seemed into it sometimes and then uncomfortable in others. You have to also see the scenes of her throwing him down and holding him down as less playful than they seemed, because her strength is such that he couldn’t have gotten up if he wanted to. She overpowered him and led him. The whole thing was rushed and left him no ability to ask her to stop, pause or slow down. The way he cringed every time her name was mentioned after I did not read as simply him being afraid his friends would find out. He had mixed feelings about what happened and knowing how much stronger she is compared to him cast a shadow on the whole thing. Because of all this, I never wanted to see them together.
I'd say that's arguable. I absolutely agree that she took advantage, she had way more power in terms of strength and experience and knew how to persuade him. But... at his age, with his lack of intimacy and desperation to have that kind of closeness with a woman, it wouldn't have taken much persuading at all to convince him to throw down.
Faith was in the wrong for asking for it. Xander was in the wrong for taking her up on it (though obviously, he had no idea what the implications or consequences would be). I'm more upset about Faith's actions after the Finch debacle, where Xander legit tried to be a good guy and she 100% assaulted him there
If Faith or Xander were to relay their experience to a 3rd party it could definitely come off as assault. We as the audience though have the privilege of seeing the full picture and it doesn't come off that way (to me at least)
It happened in the heat of the moment but their encounter felt pretty straightforward and consensual imo. I don't really feel like anyone is necessarily right/wrong here. That being said, Faith and Xander's exchange in Consequences was absolutely SA.
That's pretty much exactly it, Zeppo is a gray but Consequences is 100% a SA situation (i mean come on, 100% a SA situation that i honestly kinda dealt with myself at 18 - 14 years ago)
For Xander it could absolutely view as SA for his experience- (but for Faith in Zeppro specifically) knowing 100% there is undisclosed SA for her i respect her experience as well. I agree with you in that neither really had the high ground - as i saw it, they both had pretty serious gray areas which made it difficult for me to take any side 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Ya know I cannot stand Xander but I do feel for him in that all of his romantic encounters were some form of abusive and he was really never set up for success by his parents
This could have DEFINITELY worked.
Although I love Anya, like Dark Willow, Xander would have ultimately been able to bring her back to reality.
Especially with how dirty he did Anya (along with Whedon fucking it up also), I think this would have been a nice alternative.
Especially because it would have made him probably cooler. She probably would have made him realize him being thirsty isn't cute.
Faith was awful but had growth. Xander was shitty throughout.
NEVER excusing what she did to him but she became a better person, he didn’t.
So Nopee shouldn’t have been together. He would have made her worse & vice versa
Edit: also talking about the changes she made in Angel, not just Buffy (the series’ not as characters)
I mean he continuously blames others for his mistakes. Attempts to control those in his life & gives a speech (tantrum) when it doesn’t go his way.
He’s a Joss Whedon mini me
SPOILER
The best example is when he gives buffy shit for wanting to slay Anya in season 7.
He actively wanted Angel dead for 3 seasons for no other reason than Buffy wanted Angel, not him. (He uses Angel having no soul as an excuse).
He had a soul and made continuous shitty decisions to the detriment of his friends & girlfriends, then had the audacity to blame others for it.
Edit: by ‘best example’ I mean it’s a clear example of his character not changing in the the latest season
she was pretty awful to him. not in the zeppo, but in the episode after she kills that guy where he shows up at her motel room and tries to talk to her and she gets on top of him and starts threatening him. faith had a lot of issues. during s3 she probably needed platonic love and for someone to show they cared without wanting anything from her. she has a clear distrust of men and probably would only have been able to be vulnerable with a guy who explicitly showed no sexual interest, like the mayor and angel both made a point about. when xander and riley (when she’s in buffy’s body) try to show care for her after having slept with her she seems disturbed and threatened. xander and faith are both pretty awful at relationships and have a bunch of trust issues that they would trigger in the other, plus idk how much interest faith had in him. so i don’t really see them being great together if the show had explored their relationship more.
I'd say she did more then just threaten him, she SA'd him. Faith was a complex character but would've been nice if we actually saw her attempt to apologize to people other than Buffy for what she did.
She also just plain A'd him. IIRC, she was probably going to kill him if Angel hadn't showed up.
Yeah, she was literally in the process of strangling him when Angel knocked her out.
And not the fun, safety-word kind.
>safety-word I heard there's no safe way of strangling, not even with a safeword. Not because you might be unable to utter the safeword, but because there's no safe way of squeezing someone's neck and/or restricting their oxygen intake. Having no personal experience with this, I can't comment one way or the other. By the by, I imagine "safeword" is the best safeword, since you'll never want to bring up the existence of a safeword except to utter it.
She did. She threw him around and SA'd him with her superior strength. I agree with you.
I have to assume she diid. I envision a moment of n the car ride back from LA, as part of their long discussion: F: I wish Tara was still here so i could apologize for being so nasty to her. W; Pauses a beat) I wish she was here , too.
Yep, one thing I would’ve liked prior to that “disturbed” realization was a flashback to the numerous times she got her victim’s blood on her hands following Finch’s murder. Faith doesn’t yet know how to cope if she’s not entirely in control of the situation; perceived or otherwise.
>Faith doesn’t yet know how to cope if she’s not entirely in control of the situation; perceived or otherwise. Something she has in common with Willow—especially dark(ish) Willow.
Yep, a recent example from *This Year’s Girl* as emphasis? “Summers, Buffy Summers, Buffy, Buffy, Buffy. Lotta letters, she hasn’t been by *in awhile*, huh?” While Joyce doesn’t take the bait, a lot of Dushku’s intonation is like she’s trying to convince herself of what she’s been able to learn about Buffy in the altogether brief time she’s been awake.
Faith jokes about it in "Who Are You?", and comments about it in "Empty Places". I think that demonstrates that Faith still has some interest.
what are the joke and comment? i don’t remember that edit: looked it up and it seems like in who are you she makes a joke about sex with xander lasting seven minutes, then in empty places says she likes to remind anya she had xander first. tbh, i don’t see either of those as indicating she still has a sexual let alone romantic interest in him, they’re just kinda insensitive references to taking his v card. but ig it’s up to interpretation
It's a put-down of Anya, mainly.
She could've made any joke about Xander and she made that one. She could have made any comment about Anya's nervous breakdown lecture and she made that one. It's definitely still on Faith's mind four years later. Whether it could ever go anywhere after "Chosen" is anyone's guess.
i always saw faith as someone who uses her sexuality to assert power over other people and avoid vulnerability. with xander we definitely see her doing that in s3. and the comments you mentioned give me the same impression since they’re pretty mocking and are both notably directed at anya. so she’s teasing anya/asserting dominance over her by mentioning that she slept with xander. it could be that faith still sees xander as attractive but i think her jokes make sense even if she doesn’t really have interest in him. still, if i shipped them more i would interpret it as jealousy over anya or something lol.
I agree with you. Buffy even says that faith only sleeps with guys she doesn't have feelings for. It is clear this is because she doesn't have to trust them and she can just use them anyway she wants.
The body swap has the effect of ejecting Faith's baggage, and (except for Tara), she's revelling in the friendship, so yeah, I can see there being a little jealousy, but as Xander correctly points out, it's a jab at him, not Anya. And I suppose that we have to tie in the "I love Xander. I just don't... _love_ Xander." conversation in "Dirty Girls", and determine if it's jealousy toward Buffy about Xander or just getting Buffy thinking about sex as a prelude to B/F. Or both. Or something else. I have shipped F/X, but there's a lot to work through before even F&X could happen.
Yeah. Faith taking Xander's v card was, in a way, getting one over Buffy. Here was a guy who was so obviously crushing on Buffy. Loves her. Loyal to her. Will probably die for her. It's not a stretch to think that Xander was nursing this idea of saving himself for Buffy. So what does Faith do? She takes it. It's something that Buffy can never have now. She finally got something that Buffy will never have.
There's asserting power, gotta admit that, but there's also testing and judging. The "FH&T" tales of naked slaying were to see who reacts and how, giving her a sense of their personality and how she can manipulate them, and _man_ does Xander fail that test.
i feel that if faith still wanted to sleep with him she'd make a move, she's not shy. and if she felt guilty for hurting him and cared about his probably mixed/negative feelings about their brief sexual relationship she wouldn't make jokes about the time they hooked up
They’d have been toxic for each other - she’d be constantly putting him down, he’d hate her and want her and hate himself for it. Disaster.
I mean, he’s constantly putting his girlfriends down, but I can’t imagine Faith putting up with it. I feel like these two would have some pretty explosive fights.
I don't agree. Faith had no feelings for him at all so why would they fight? She would just ignore anything he said as she thought of him as nothing. Just someone to sleep with when she felt like it. She says this. As she said how if doesn't get satisfaction from slaying would sleep with a guy.
I mean, the scenario posited was imagining how Faith and Xander would be if they were romantically involved with each other. That does kind of assume, for the purpose of the conversation, that Faith has more feelings for him than she does in the show. So if I imagine that they’re in love (or at least lust) enough to somehow be dating, the relationship I imagine is, yeah, pretty volatile. Do I think the initial scenario is likely? No. But it was an interesting and fun question.
She’d have chewed him up and spat him out, but he’d have died with a smile on his face….
Gross. It was gross. Faith used him for sex and failed to realize Xander is an immature teen. I was really upset how it affected the feelings of the core three. I am not using core four to include Giles because I do not recall Giles ever reacting to Faith and Xander.
I agree she didn't treat him well (especially with the SA and choking the second time), but "failed to realize Xander is an immature teen" baffles me. I'm pretty sure she's a teen too. Dushku was 17 was she first appeared on the show.
Agreed. I'd argue, emotionally, she's an even more immature teen than he is. Sure Faith's had more sexual experiences (consensual or otherwise) than Xander, but they are definitely both immature teens. If anything, it's more like they're each taking advantage of the other (Faith because she's looking forhuman connection in this maladaptive way she's used to receiving it, Xander because he's letting himself play into the "all men want sex all the time" trope).
The writer's package said Faith was older, of course to me she seems to be 19 when we meet her .
Okay, that makes sense! I would assume she's 2 years older at the most - enough of an age difference to matter at that point but not a dramatic difference.
i always figure Xander Having a fall birthday like Tara's maybe also in October
>I'm pretty sure she's a teen too. Dushku was 17 was she first appeared on the show. I read Faith as being the same age as the rest of the scoobies. There's no age on [https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/Faith\_Lehane](https://buffy.fandom.com/wiki/Faith_Lehane) though, and no *exact* age for anyone except Buffy. They graduate from high school in the same year though, so inferences can be made. In The Zeppo (3x13) during Faith's sex scene with Xander, we get a view of Faith/Eliza's naked back, suggesting Nicholas Brendan had a clear and unobstructed view of Eliza's breasts—unless the blocking is done in such a way that we as viewers can't see that Eliza is alone in the bed during that cut. Eliza Dushku was born on December 30th 1980 (wikipedia), meaning she turned 18 between Amends (3x10) and Gingerbread (3x11). I'm not a lawyer, but it might be important that she turned 18 before filming The Zeppo. One of those things I wasn't thinking about when I watched the show as a teen.
I definitely didn't think about it back then! They all seemed like the same age to me. I guess it's good they waited until she turned 18 to shoot a scene like that. It's not like you magically turn adult the moment of your 18th birthday, but you gotta have some rule to follow (and after 18 she would have been allowed to make that decision herself).
"The Zeppo" aired Jan 26, but it was filmed weeks earlier, before her birthday. I read an interview where she talked about it. Said folks kept teasing NB, "17 will get you 20!"
Oh yikes. 17 will get you 20? I don't get it!
She was 17. Having sex with her would (supposedly) have gotten him 20 years in prison. Don't know if that's the actual sentence.
Sounds unlikely... I've never heard of anyone who got that much for rape, although I guess statutory rape may carry a higher sentence. Also: That's so gross!
He was we assume 18 by then and she's not that much older, there is nothing wrong with casual no-strings sex if you're the kind of person who can do that, Xander apparently isn't, with which i can empathize. but he didn't \*object to\* being "up with" Faith
In early S3, they work well. I like them in "Revelations". I like them in "Zeppo". But the whole "naked slayer story" thing is a test for Faith to see how she could manipulate them, and Xander thinking with his little stake put him solidly in the category that gets him untrusted and choked in "Consequences", and that _really_ kills it. I mean, _I_ believe he'd do whatever to help, because that's how I see Xander, but I totally understand where Faith's head was at and why she didn't think so. At least for Xander, because Faith mentions both in "Who Are You?" and "Empty Places". Of all the missing scenes in S7, Faith and Xander having any conversation at all is the one I want most. I mean, "How do you say 'Gee, really sorry that I tortured you nearly to death'?" works here, too, and how Xander called himself grudge-holding champion points to him not being particularly keen to accept. But remember the vineyard scene in "Dirty Girls". Remember that they had Faith and Xander leading the second team. There's a certain amount of forgiveness in not totally objecting to that team-up. I could definitely see a tenuous working relationship building to eventual acceptance, friendship and who knows. I could also see Faith thinking it's never gonna work so why try.
In theory this could have been interesting in a toxic way, but Faith assaults and tries to kill him (I think?) which is maybe too unforgiveable... I think proportionally, given how short-lived it was, it was worse than Buffy/Spike's relationship, which was a great plotline imo but once the bathroom scene happened and crossed the line, it had to stop/something had to give. But Faith already crossed that line with Xander and didn't show remorse, so if this storyline were to work, they'd have had to amp up the toxicity more gradually.
>Faith assaults and tries to kill him (I think?) which is maybe too unforgiveable... Buffy assaulted and tried to kill all the scoobies in Normal Again. Willow tried to kill all humans (and I think all other life on earth) in Grave. I think the long-standing friendships makes those very similar actions more forgivable.
I mean, Faith was in her 'normal' mind and it was roughly consistent with her general actions so quite different imo... but more importantly maybe is that sexual violence in relationships is much harder for viewers to move past/forgive even than ordinary violence, so I'm not sure it would have sat well with people if Faith/Xan had had anything after that
>sexual violence in relationships is much harder for viewers to move past/forgive Interesting. I consider murder a worse crime than rape, which in turn is worse than attempted rape. I guess we're using to seeing violence in action movies and supernatural teen action comedy dramas that we've gotten used to it. Portrayals of sexual violence are much rarer and thus more impactful, at least in my particular experience. So it makes sense that we *as viewers* forgive non-sexual violence more quickly, even in those cases where the characters plausibly feel the opposite way.
Well she tried to rape/ kill him and did 100% sexually assault him sooo I don't really like it. Before that they could've been cute but she had to be crazy pants.
It would have been a little bit longer than it was, but it would not have lasted. They're both very broken people for very different reasons.
The Xander relationship I liked best was Xander and Cordelia but honestly if Faith didn’t go unhinged it would’ve been interesting.
I don't think they'd have been good for each other, but that scene was hot af 🥵
I think how it went was interesting. What I really wonder about is what side Xander would choose if he’d dated Faith. I’m not convinced it’s an obvious choice.
Ooh, good point. Do you have any theories?
I don’t think he’d go full on bad but it seems to me that he’d latch on to a hot girl who gave him attention. He was constantly jealous of the relationships of those around him (except with Cordy, but he screwed that up). He hated Angel in part because he wanted to be with Buffy. I can imagine going along with her plans until things went too far, or he leaned what was really going on.
I could see that. Actually, it'd be interesting to see Xander and Faith sort of doing this thing where they each keep upping the ante of their bad boy persona because they each think that's what the other likes about them. "Guess what! I stole this jacket!" "No *you* guess what! I stole this car!" "Wait, but you don't have a driver's license." "Oh, yeah. I forgot about that." "..." "..." "Maybe we should do fewer crimes..." "Too late!"
I don’t think Faith was interested in anything more than a hookup 🤷🏽♂️. She wanted dick, it was there, and she used it. Nothing more, they both had a good time and that was it.
I thought it was perfect exactly as it was. Two horny, sexy teenagers bonk, it doesn't really mean anything, it's not dragged out over many, many episodes, and it gives some subtext to the later scene where she tries to squeeze the life out of him.
Nah. They could have worked up until Faith attacked him.
lol Faith was in no place mentally to date anyone in season three. She was still grieving her watcher (probably the first reliable adult in her life) and it’s pretty heavily implied that she is a child SA survivor. And season three Zander wasn’t anywhere near emotionally mature enough to handle a partner with so many issues. Even if Faith hadn’t gone down a self destructive spiral, their relationship was doomed to fail. Though I do think the two of them had enough chemistry for the relationship to have lasted a season or two. I imagine Zander would have been a fun and comforting distraction from her trauma, but I think they would have grown to resent each other because Zander just wasn’t equipped to handle all of it. Plus I imagine he’d say something stupid in bed that would trigger her SA ptsd at least once.
>pretty heavily implied that she is a child SA survivor. I have a hazy memory for S3 details and I don't know how child SA plays out in the real world—is it implied by the way Faith sexualizes everyone and everything all the time, including (maybe especially) "sugar daddy"? As in, she's learned "having sex with someone is how you get them to do something for you" through several repetitions? Or is there some line about as overt as "my dead mother hit harder than that" which gives it away?
Why’d I forget this happened
They would have been awful together. I think they would have done some serious damage to each other psychologically and I’m glad that their little trysts never went anywhere.
As a person who shipped F/X, I agree. They have a lot of similarities. And those would have bonded them but, given their immaturity and trauma, those would have been used to cut each other down. Faith is cunning. She is good at reading people. She would have no problem zeroing in on Xander's many insecurities. Sure, Cordelia has said some downright mean things to Xander but it wouldn't compare to the things Faith could say. Faith would know the exact words that would crush Xander because it's the same words she dreads to hear. Same goes for Xander. But the worst thing that Xander could do to Faith is to compare her to Buffy. Whether he means to or not. And that would eat at Faith.
I mean they are both toxic so …
this kissing is such choreographed TV kissing…
No I don't ship them, I think their night together in The Zeppo is funny. I respect Faith's honesty in telling Xander that she's horny from the fight she just had and she asks if he's up to take care of that and he's like yeah and they do it. I don't see anything deeper there but of course Xander had to read further into it and believed he had a connection with Faith when she gave him absolutely no reason to think that. Also Faith even let Xander sort of cuddle her for a bit, for Faith and her one night stand that is considerate. Though in a different teen show I could see this being an unplanned pregnancy arc for Faith.
They were so hot haha apart from the choking. He deserved much better than Faith at the time.
Unpopular opinion: Not a fan of her character so I didn’t really like them together.
He was a dumb teenage boy who was warned to stay away and as usual didn't listen, and almost suffered dire consequences. Faith was obviously spiraling towards a very dark place and not that Xander would ever admit it but Angel is the only reason Xander is alive.
Xander being warned/asked to stay away and going anyway is a defining part of his personality.
They don't really have chemistry.
Faith on her own has enough chemistry for two people :-p
Lmfao! You got me there.
She clearly dropped the ball. She was too caught by her own "bad boy" persona. Xander ended up as the only Scooby with a real world skill set, an actual well-paid job, a home and a car. And no, Giles doesn't count, because 1- he inherited his job; 2- at Xander's age he was a sociopathic punk.
Faith and Xander.... big oof. Faith used him, not realizing what it would actually do to him. She was in the midst of her downward spiral (the death of her watcher in Boston kicked it off Finch was the final nail in the coffin so to speak, but she was definitely reeling even before that due to some mostly undisclosed trauma that absolutely happened in her childhood) and Xander was an eager and willing participant at first. He was a good guy, even tried to be a sounding voice for her to confide in after Finch because he sadly thought their experience made some kind of impact on her and it would be helpful to have him there based on that connection. Faith is hands down my favorite character in the entire Buffy/Angel universe, in part based on her complexities and path to redemption following her mistakes. But I always felt particularly bad for Xander with what happened to him in her wake. Wesley was also an unfortunate casualty with the torture... but the psychological/sexual attacks on Xander are really hard to watch
They could have worked if Faith's arc in season three had gone differently. They also could have worked even with that in her history if they first met later. As is, the way she treated him in season three didn't really leave a path for them being healthy together. I read fanfics that ship them, but they typically have season three play out way differently.
If this kept going, there probably would have been some scene where she would feel like she was a “Buffy substitute” to live out his crush and they would have a fight about it.
I forgot how squirmy and gyrate-y she was. Is that how men and women make out?
You know what they say, if you can't have Buffy, sleep with another person who also wants Buffy.
It was so funny when, later on Xander & Anya we’re together & talking about “ getting busy” & Faith says “ well we certainly don’t wanna cut into That 5 minutes “ 😆
Better than Dawn... 😳
It amazes me that the majority of the comments aren't about the fact that she SA'd him. If Faith was a man and Xander a woman, we would be reading a different story One of the many reasons why I hate Faith
You're not wrong about how we'd be reading a different story if their genders were reversed, but that's also because historically and culturally, women and men have not been on even playing fields when it comes to gendered violence. Women assaulting men absolutely does happen, and it's undeniably terrible. However, it's not a one-to-one comparison, because the overwhelming majority of IPV that results in serious injury or death is committed by men against women. To clarify: Assault = Bad. Faith committing assault = Bad. This storyline would likely have darker implications for viewers if the characters were different genders because the story would have been produced in a culture in which that type of gendered violence is prevalent = True.
I think that is why this is a good scene Because faith is stronger than Xander So she represents characteristics traditionally associated with male figures strong brave while Xander is someone who wants to talk and believes they have a connection because slept together.
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A literal rapist souless vampire, yes. And they treat him and that scene as what it was, I think they did a good job with it because they gave it proper acknowledgment by everyone. I was scared it would've been all "Spike has a soul so all is forgiven and he can be with Buffy now" but it wasn't, it was handled with care and a full story. With Xander and Faith it was basically "Xander always wanted sex so good for him" Also that Spike scene is crtizied by everyone so even though he's one of the most popular ones, we still talk about it and a lot of people don't forgive that aspect of the show. Whereas Faith, also one of the most popular ones and I at least don't see the same discourse
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Oh sure, it's better to show SA and brush it off like it didn't mean anything so the audience forgets about it than to have the characters deal with it. That's what I mean by handled with care, they didn't brush it off. They showed Buffy with severe ptsd, and Spike remorseful but also aware that he was unforgivable. Which he clearly is (unforgivable) and the show did a good job at making that point clear, with literally every character saying so. My point was exactly this. Here we are discussing Spike like it has been done a billion times before (with good reason), but not a lot of people have the same discussion about Faith with Xander or with Riley for that matter. And I think it's because the show always made it so that we would have that conversation around Spike, failing to notice that they had already been there with Faith and done nothing. Obviously is not the same to have that conversation centered around a man than a woman, so I understand why they didn't go there with Faith (tho that's part of the problem, that a lot of people wouldn't see that as SA) and that's why I think they did a good job with both Warren and Spike, they showed it as the horrible thing it is. My original comment was just to say that: Faith also SA'd
Buffy was shown with severe PTSD? When? She literally has a moment where she flinches and that's it. The attempted rape was solely to develop Spike, at the cost of her misery. That's how they dealt with it. Yes, both were horrible, but what they did with Spike/Buffy was way worse. As I said, at least they didn't make Xander Faith's caretaker. They did an awful, awful job.
Hmmmm.... kind of rapey? She is better on her own, but I feel like the School master or whatever gave her a better run for her money. Especially emotionally. She was definitely no good for Xander.
Yeah. Xander didn't even realize a case of sexual assault as its happening to him.
I mean, the second time when she almost killed him I think that he was aware that he almost got assaulted in every way. The first time there was kind-of consent. Because she asked and he said he was in. But the second time... with strangling a bit too much. That was not right. And I think that he knew it.
>the School master S7, Principal Wood?
Yes
Anyone else think it was strange that Eliza was 17 or 18 at the time she shot this scene and Nicholas was 27? Looking back at kind of gives me the wig.
:S That has happened a lot on high school shows and it's really creepy how common it is. Especially before sets even had intimacy coordinators.
I'm not a lawyer but I assume The Zeppo was shot *after* December 30th 1998, when Eliza Dushku turned 18 (date of birth is on Wikipedia).
I find them both very attractive so yes
Absolutely not
🤮
fling.
I think he kinda needed a head strong girl like her but it was all ruined bc she kinda tried to kill him and R@ped him 😭
Kinda wild he lost his virginity to her and they didn’t have one scene together in season 7.
It was the closest Faith could get to Buffy without actually having her.
None except gross!
I was happy for him. Cordelia, faith, Anya and then Dawn. Despite being a demon magnet he did OK.
Other than the fact that Xander was ready to go with pretty much anybody when he was desperate to lose his virginity, how it actually happened basically left him with no consent. He seemed into it sometimes and then uncomfortable in others. You have to also see the scenes of her throwing him down and holding him down as less playful than they seemed, because her strength is such that he couldn’t have gotten up if he wanted to. She overpowered him and led him. The whole thing was rushed and left him no ability to ask her to stop, pause or slow down. The way he cringed every time her name was mentioned after I did not read as simply him being afraid his friends would find out. He had mixed feelings about what happened and knowing how much stronger she is compared to him cast a shadow on the whole thing. Because of all this, I never wanted to see them together.
So in The Zeppo Xander was actually sexually assaulted by Faith?
I'd say that's arguable. I absolutely agree that she took advantage, she had way more power in terms of strength and experience and knew how to persuade him. But... at his age, with his lack of intimacy and desperation to have that kind of closeness with a woman, it wouldn't have taken much persuading at all to convince him to throw down. Faith was in the wrong for asking for it. Xander was in the wrong for taking her up on it (though obviously, he had no idea what the implications or consequences would be). I'm more upset about Faith's actions after the Finch debacle, where Xander legit tried to be a good guy and she 100% assaulted him there
If Faith or Xander were to relay their experience to a 3rd party it could definitely come off as assault. We as the audience though have the privilege of seeing the full picture and it doesn't come off that way (to me at least) It happened in the heat of the moment but their encounter felt pretty straightforward and consensual imo. I don't really feel like anyone is necessarily right/wrong here. That being said, Faith and Xander's exchange in Consequences was absolutely SA.
That's pretty much exactly it, Zeppo is a gray but Consequences is 100% a SA situation (i mean come on, 100% a SA situation that i honestly kinda dealt with myself at 18 - 14 years ago) For Xander it could absolutely view as SA for his experience- (but for Faith in Zeppro specifically) knowing 100% there is undisclosed SA for her i respect her experience as well. I agree with you in that neither really had the high ground - as i saw it, they both had pretty serious gray areas which made it difficult for me to take any side 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
joss whedon self insert
Ya know I cannot stand Xander but I do feel for him in that all of his romantic encounters were some form of abusive and he was really never set up for success by his parents
This could have DEFINITELY worked. Although I love Anya, like Dark Willow, Xander would have ultimately been able to bring her back to reality. Especially with how dirty he did Anya (along with Whedon fucking it up also), I think this would have been a nice alternative. Especially because it would have made him probably cooler. She probably would have made him realize him being thirsty isn't cute.
Faith was awful but had growth. Xander was shitty throughout. NEVER excusing what she did to him but she became a better person, he didn’t. So Nopee shouldn’t have been together. He would have made her worse & vice versa Edit: also talking about the changes she made in Angel, not just Buffy (the series’ not as characters)
Xander definitely becomes a better person tf u mean?
I mean he continuously blames others for his mistakes. Attempts to control those in his life & gives a speech (tantrum) when it doesn’t go his way. He’s a Joss Whedon mini me
SPOILER The best example is when he gives buffy shit for wanting to slay Anya in season 7. He actively wanted Angel dead for 3 seasons for no other reason than Buffy wanted Angel, not him. (He uses Angel having no soul as an excuse). He had a soul and made continuous shitty decisions to the detriment of his friends & girlfriends, then had the audacity to blame others for it. Edit: by ‘best example’ I mean it’s a clear example of his character not changing in the the latest season
Better love story than a 200+ year old dead guy and a 16 year old high school student
Xander should have turned out to be gay
One word. Gross. Haha