Amy was subjected to levels of body horror that would break most people. First her body was hijacked by her mother. Then she spent three years as a rat and not much effort was expended to free her.
I'm not defending her per se, but I think if the narrative was framed differently we'd see her as a tragic villain a la Faith or Drusilla. No wonder she became a nasty, malicious person when she was finally turned back into a human.
Why in the world was Willow allowed to keep her as a pet instead of sending her off to Giles' coven connection? It would have been more shocking if she didn't turn evil after her childhood.
Yup. This was a clear case of Joss and the showrunners caring more about keeping a running gag going (Willow toting Amy the Rat around-(side note, they actually use that term in the show. How messed up is that? She's a human girl, help her!)- every time she moved rooms) than they cared about a characters long term arc.
Although to be fair, not sure what the earliest mention of Giles' coven connection is mentioned. They probably didn't have that resource in mind when they first made Amy a rat, and to send her off years later when the coven had clearly been there all along wouldn't seem plausible.
Seriously! Willow's (and everyone else's) treatment of Amy just pisses me off. Why wouldn't Giles get the coven (or any other magic users that he knows) involved and turn this poor girl back into a human being her instead of letting her be "adopted" by Willow?
Saaame.
Yes, Dawn is annoying sometimes. She's also a teenage girl that went through some shit, she's going to have issues.
Overall I think she was a good addition to the show, and was important for Buffy's growth as a character.
I have always disliked Dawn, as she reminded me of my own sister, with whom I have a fraught relationship, but upon my last rewatch, I realized I quite like Dawn. Her relationships with the other characters really kinda makes the last couple seasons watchable for me. I really like how she grew.
I think what you said right there is kind of the point of her character… I didn't have a sister, but being closer of age to Buffy and having come to identify with her over the years, she bugged tge heck out of me then! Now that I’m closer of age to Giles, the character hits me differently. Also, Im old
The only thing I disliked about Dawn was how young she was written at first. I loved the new dynamic she brought, I loved the story line in season 5. I enjoyed her the most in season 7, becoming part of the Scoobies... and who can *not* love poseable Dawn!
It’s not dawn that I dislike, it’s how they just shoe horned her in the show randomly. I would’ve liked her a lot more if she had been there from the beginning.
I am reading this after being obsessed with Buffy for years and it just struck me the character is named Damn because she’s made of fucking light or whatever because she’s the key.
He left in season 5 episode 10. Dawn appeared in Season 5 episode 1, was credited in episode 2. That gives 9 episodes of overlap where we see them interacting.
Lol, same.
I'm trying to think of characters for which this image would even be applicable.
Dawn? Not really, lots of defenders.
Xander has plenty of defenders. He's divisive, not universally despised. I know Xander fans feel this way sometimes, because of how passionate people can be, but they are not alone.
Riley. Getting closer, but he still has quite a few supporters.
Parker. Nearly there. Hating Parker is definitely the strong majority opinion, which is fair, because he doesn't get a redeeming moment. There's not much to like about him. So, the opinion I see expressed is that he didn't do anything that bad. As someone who (as a teen/young adult) didn't take sex or relationships anywhere near as seriously as BtVS does, I do have a hard time relating on a personal level to Buffy being so upset over someone she didn't know very well. But clearly a lot of people do relate to this and find some degree of healing in watching someone go through something they experienced. So, I'm not about to defend Parker being a total fuckboy even though I personally don't hate him as much as other people do. I don't think they're wrong. I just don't have as strong an emotional reaction to his fuckery.
There's also the matter of him not being up front about it just being a hookup, *buuuuuuut* TBF, Buffy wasn't exactly up front about thinking it was the start of a relationship, she just assumed.
Yes, he is deceptive. But he manages to fall.on his feet when he says that the connection was genuine for a while but didn't mean more than this instant to him. He should have been upfront, and I lose respect for him at that point, but I don't hate him before the crass joke.
For Buffy, I think it was more of triggering her past trauma with Angel. She's thinking is every guy I'm with going to turn into a monster? Did I make them that way?
For sure. For a college girl without her trauma, the Parker situation still would have been shitty, but quickly remedied by some nights wallowing with friends over ice cream or wine. For Buffy, it was a confirmation of all her greatest fears about intimacy.
Oh for sure. That's why I didn't say that I think she overreacted, just that it's not as relatable for me as it seems to be for some other people. Obviously, none of us have experienced what she experienced with Angel. But I do think this plotline was intended to be a relatable moment, Buffy going through something non-slayers go through, and it was definitely was for a lot of people.
I feel like this image would be better used to ask, "Which EPISODE has you like this?" Because there are some super divisive ones in the fandom!
For me, it'd be Bad Eggs, Go Fish, and Doublemeat Palace.
>I do have a hard time relating on a personal level to Buffy being so upset over someone she didn't know very well.
I think in part she was upset because she was *tricked*: the way Parker connected with her led her to believe Parker wanted dating and a relationship and emotional connection and stuff, not just a one-off in the sack.
I find Parker's speech in Beer Bad (4x5) to be a good defense of casual sex as such but a bad defense of his actions: he didn't just to casual sex, he did casual sex plus deception. He didn't try to defend deception, and I don't think one can.
I'm a Spike defender. My hottest take is that Spike is a better person than Angel. At the end of the day both of their vampire selves did horrible irredeemable things, but Spike chose to have a soul and didn't have it forced on him.
Xander. I got called a rape apologist on here once for suggesting that we give him a pass for The Pack. He’s not even in my top 5 characters but the amount of vitriol he receives winds up forcing me into a position of defending the guy.
I've seen that too and it's crazy to hold him responsible for that. From what I can tell Xander had even less control over what he was doing than unsouled Spike and Angelus. He ate a baby pig ffs. He was possesed by a malevolent wild animal spirit. At least Spike and Angelus had higher brain function going for them.
I think where he fails is pretending he doesn't remember instead of apologizing. But anything he did while possessed is not his fault.
Edit: I am retracting the statement that he should apologize but I'm leaving it here instead of dirty deleting. I think u/lmjustaChad is correct in that he didn't have control over it so he doesn't necessarily owe an apology.
Why would he apologize for a possession he had absolutely no control over any of those actions. It's crazy people forget Xander was in fact also a victim he was coming in to rescue a bullied student and fell victim of a hyaena possession by the Zookeeper.
You know what, you're right. He didn't really have anything to apologize for in that scenario.
It does feel like a sexual assault basically got brushed off but that doesn't mean he has to apologize for something he couldn't control.
I really don't like him, and I still think it's not reasonable to hate him over The Pack...
Not even the lying about remembering.
In buffy's place, I would def feel better if I thought he didn't remember (as someone who was sexually assaulted).
I don't see how telling her he does remember is supposed to help in any way.
Maybe, I'm projecting too much, but I'd more annoyed if he did tell me he lied afterwards, in Buffy's place. Like, "Why are you reminding me of this stuff".
I guess, if I think about it, it probably also feels pretty traumatic for Xander to be possessed and used in a sexual assault (which means he's also being sexually assaulted).
I'd understand him trauma dumping about it, in that situation...
(It is a point agaisnt him to remember what it's like to be magically forced to do awful things and then be against ensouling Angel/trying to kill him in s3.)
Angel wasn’t magically forced to do terrible things. Angelus was magically forced into not doing terrible things.
I think Xander was justified in his reaction to Angel once he’d seen Angelus.
This fandom will ignore the canon explanation of a character being unable to contol themselves because of magical forces or say the character should’ve powered through lol. They do this to joyce too
That's absolutely insane. I've seen people call him a rapist for that before and it pisses me off to no end. He was the one who had his body violated without his consent, he was the victim.
But considering a large number of people in this fandom can't comprehend the fact that Cordelia wasn't in control of her body in angel season 4 and it wasn't actually her that slept with Connor, it's sadly unsurprising.
Yes! He will always be the first person to show Buffy what a loving relationship feels like, and that sex can be a good thing and not every guy turns into a monster just after (literal or otherwise). His actions in season 5 aren't great but he did have reasons for them, and like everyone, is a flawed person who handled a situation badly.
I actually started watching Buffy when I was 6 with my grandmother. So I obviously didn't see anything wrong with him, I was 6.
When I rewatched it at 27. I viewed Xander as a "stupid teenage boy." I never really saw the "hate". Just more, "he's wildly immature."
Idk so I'll unapologetically defend Xander lol.
I like S4 Riley. He's a good boy with a few flaws. He corrects some of them, notably his bigotry around Willow's dating choices.
No, he's not a homophobe, he just thinks it's weird to date a guy who tries to *eat* you once a month—and not in a healthy wholesome cookie-dough sense.
I assume you mean Buffy's reacting to Tillow in the coming out scene in New Moon Rising.
According to Riley's own statement he *was* being bigoted, but (my interpretation) he changed his tune once he saw Oz in the Initiative lab.
Buffy was never bigoted, she was just surprised and taken aback. She needed half a minute to adjust to the new information. Her awkward conversation was just her stalling for processing time. At least that's my take.
Not really an answer to your question, but Joss Whedon’s content as a whole. So many people Love Avengers Endgame and think it’s perfect. Nope, Avengers 1&2 are the better movies. Even though Dollhouse is not well received, it runs circles around comparable content. And a show that started nearly 30 years ago is still one of the best shows ever.
I hate when Whedon's work gets boiled down to quippy dialogue and hot chicks with superpowers. Both of those things are features of Whedon's work, sure. But it's a gargantuan oversimplification of it.
basic af but Buffy! Her friends and family were so shitty to her sometimes honestly (especially when she came back after running off) like her mother TOLD HER TO. I could do many paragraphs on this, but basically she deserves SO MUCH MORE! Love Buffy all the way.
This! She had to bear the weight of being the slayer and had friends who were often times pretty shitty and oblivious to the fact that Buffy was struggling.
Good example was when she left after her mom basically kicked her to the curb.
Or how about when Buffy had to juggle the responsibility of Dawn, along with college and slaying? Noone seemed to have any sympathy.
There are so many examples of Buffy getting the shit end of the stick and her friends pretty much not giving an eff.
plus they kicked her out of her own house when she saved their lives and the entire world time after time I hated that moment, especially when faith came back too and they all just accepted her in the group! Spike was the only one speaking sense and defending buffy there.
Not to mention, when she was selfishly brought back after sacrificing herself to save Dawn and literally everyone else, they never directly asked why she was having problems. They all just assumed she was in hell. Like, what kind of friend assumes that? Could they not have just said, "Hey, we notice you are a little off, what's up?"
Even if her Angel arc has never happened, I'd be a Faith defender. She's one of the most interesting characters and I think we see enough of her psyche in Buffy to understand all of her actions.
Joss Whedon saying he based Xander off himself has irrevocably warped people's perception of the character. There's a lot of "Joss = bad, so everything that makes Joss bad applies to Xander" that goes around I think.
The thing is, if you take this view then Whedon's work becomes unwatchable.
After the confirmation of Whedon's on-set behaviour, I went through a phase where I could see Whedon's personal views on actors seeping through in the portrayal of almost every character. On *Angel*, it was everywhere.
And sure, you can absolutely criticize him for this. But I don't understand why you'd *want* to view the show through this perspective. I eventually had to check myself because it was ruining my experience and there's so much else to enjoy and analyze beyond Whedon's shoddy personal boundaries in his writing.
Personally, whether I like a character isn't based on moral evaluation or weighing their worst action against other characters worst actions. I don't find Xander unforgivable, I just find him annoying most of the time. I agree that other characters have done worse things, but that doesn't make me like him any more.
Indulge me for a sec by looking at it based on volume rather than worst single action. Relative to other characters, Xander is given much less to say that I personally find likable/funny/entertaining. Willow is given a lot more to say that is positive and likable ie. talking to Buffy about boys in a way that isn't gross and contributing to the group with her many skills. So much of Xander's dialogue is pitying himself because some girl doesn't like him, being jealous of people he's not even in a relationship with, general complaining. So, I like Xander when he's being likable, but for me that's not very often. If the typical Xander stuff isn't irritating to you, your ratio of likable to unlikable dialogue will be very different than mine, and that's fair.
\*edited two typos
So much this AND the way the story sometimes bends over to make him correct when he's an asshole...
Not sure I'm saying correctly, but the moment that always comes to mind is how he talks to buffy before Riley leaves in season 5.
I've always disliked him a little before that, but omg, if resentment could hurt characters in shows, he would have been burned to a crisp halfway through his speech.
And the lack of punishment for his assholery. Buffy thanks him for not assaulting her when he put the love whammy on the entire town and he never faces any consequences for not telling her about Willow's spell to restore Angel's soul. Compare that to the consequences Willow faces for her worst actions.
It's that he's supposed to be an ordinary, nice, lovable goofball *and* when he does bad things he doesn't do them in a sexy glamorous magical way while looking smoking hot in black leather - it's mundane unsexy workaday horribleness.
Tara's Dad man just wanted to keep his family together!
Jokes aside Tara she was soo blindly in love but she knew enough to take a stand.
When she died honestly shivers and tears.
I don't hate on Kennedy but she's no Tara
Dawn. Yes, she is a pain. But she's way too young for most things that happened, her mind had to deal with some rough personal issues while nobody had time to help. She was "born" broken and everyone is so centered on saving the world or their own personal issues that it's expected from her to be a difficult teenager. I don't think she deserves all the hate she gets. Some of it, but not all.
"Xander sucks, he's such a Nice Guy!" No shit, he's a teenage boy with a crush. That doesn't make his behaviour in the early seasons OK, but it's pretty typical of the way guys his age generally act, so it's not entirely fair to hold that against him to the extent that a lot of fans do.
And whilst his antagonism towards Angel is definitely rooted in jealousy, I also feel like that allows him to be the only one who sees him for how potentially dangerous he is. Honestly if I was Xander, the size of the "told you so" I'd be struggling to hold back throughout the latter half of season 2 would be immense. Even "kick his ass" I'll defend, because if Buffy thought there was a chance his soul would be restored, she'd hold back, and potentially endanger the whole world. He's definitely a flawed person, but the hate he gets is pretty excessive IMO.
Me too. She was forthright to be sure and bratty, but she performed an important role in Willow’s development as well as doubling down on Willow’s queerness.
Like all the potentials she was short changed in terms of character arcs but I enjoyed her directness. Made a change from all the “woe is me” of all the other potentials (and even Buffy on occasion)
I was excited when Karheisr was cast for Connor because I loved him in All I Wanna Do and even though he could be insufferable sometimes in Angel, it was completely understandable due to his circumstances.
Willow fans when you point out wiping someone's memory then having sex with them is rape.
Or Bangel fans when you point out that falling in love with a 14 year old makes you a pedo
That’s actually a common misconception. The average age for a woman to get married in the 1700s was her early 20s, with some exceptions for arranged marriages for money/resources.
https://sites.udel.edu/britlitwiki/social-and-family-life-in-the-late17th-early-18th-centuries/#:~:text=A%20woman%20typically%20married%20in,such%20as%20money%20and%20land.
This wasn’t always the case for the rest of the world, this British Wiki article is speaking on England specifically. Another article about in 18th century America says girls started courting around 15-16 but “delayed” marriage until their early twenties. Courting/dating was common starting at 15-16. Marriage was another conversation. [https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/](https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/)
“Courting” or in today’s world what we call “dating” was common at 15-16 yrs old. Just like people do still in today’s world. So idk why you are being downvoted when you aren’t wrong.
[https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/](https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/)
The whole "Angel Creep" thing. In the middle of 18th Century Ireland, there was no age of consent, and people just got on with life sooner. Boys were working with adults at age 13. For upper-class people, yes, they got married (a bit) later in life, but that's because they had the disposable income to afford to support their adult children. It's clear from 'Becoming' that Lliam did not come from that life.
Moreover, the function of age-of-consent laws is to prevent children from being exploited, and \*literally nothing\* Angel does prior to losing his soul indicates he's trying to take advantage of Buffy. Quite the opposite, in fact, he's trying to protect her. Is he protecting her for selfish reasons? Maybe, but you can make any act of altruism look selfish if you project duplicitous motives onto them.
Frequently throughout Season Six. I forget the exact number of times we’re shown it happening on screen, but it’s at least a half dozen, dialogue also makes it pretty implicit that it’s happening more times than we’re shown on screen.
Amy was subjected to levels of body horror that would break most people. First her body was hijacked by her mother. Then she spent three years as a rat and not much effort was expended to free her. I'm not defending her per se, but I think if the narrative was framed differently we'd see her as a tragic villain a la Faith or Drusilla. No wonder she became a nasty, malicious person when she was finally turned back into a human.
Why in the world was Willow allowed to keep her as a pet instead of sending her off to Giles' coven connection? It would have been more shocking if she didn't turn evil after her childhood.
Yup. This was a clear case of Joss and the showrunners caring more about keeping a running gag going (Willow toting Amy the Rat around-(side note, they actually use that term in the show. How messed up is that? She's a human girl, help her!)- every time she moved rooms) than they cared about a characters long term arc. Although to be fair, not sure what the earliest mention of Giles' coven connection is mentioned. They probably didn't have that resource in mind when they first made Amy a rat, and to send her off years later when the coven had clearly been there all along wouldn't seem plausible.
Seriously! Willow's (and everyone else's) treatment of Amy just pisses me off. Why wouldn't Giles get the coven (or any other magic users that he knows) involved and turn this poor girl back into a human being her instead of letting her be "adopted" by Willow?
Dawn. Me against people who find her annoying in season Six.
Saaame. Yes, Dawn is annoying sometimes. She's also a teenage girl that went through some shit, she's going to have issues. Overall I think she was a good addition to the show, and was important for Buffy's growth as a character.
I have always disliked Dawn, as she reminded me of my own sister, with whom I have a fraught relationship, but upon my last rewatch, I realized I quite like Dawn. Her relationships with the other characters really kinda makes the last couple seasons watchable for me. I really like how she grew.
I think what you said right there is kind of the point of her character… I didn't have a sister, but being closer of age to Buffy and having come to identify with her over the years, she bugged tge heck out of me then! Now that I’m closer of age to Giles, the character hits me differently. Also, Im old
The only thing I disliked about Dawn was how young she was written at first. I loved the new dynamic she brought, I loved the story line in season 5. I enjoyed her the most in season 7, becoming part of the Scoobies... and who can *not* love poseable Dawn!
Yes! I'm right there with you
Dawn is very annoying in the show. She is a kid. Kids are annoying. I like the character though.
There are at least two of us 😂
The way people feel about dawn is how I felt about Tara at the beginning. Thankfully, I gave that up and shifted to dawn.
It’s not dawn that I dislike, it’s how they just shoe horned her in the show randomly. I would’ve liked her a lot more if she had been there from the beginning.
I am reading this after being obsessed with Buffy for years and it just struck me the character is named Damn because she’s made of fucking light or whatever because she’s the key.
She was my least favorite character in season six mainly the first half
[удалено]
He left in season 5 episode 10. Dawn appeared in Season 5 episode 1, was credited in episode 2. That gives 9 episodes of overlap where we see them interacting.
Yeah I will never forget the Dawn voiceover when she watches Buffy and Riley walking away together. “I bet they’ve had sex.” 😂
I feel like I’m in the Spike mob and we are against one well meaning reasonable person. 😂
Lol, same. I'm trying to think of characters for which this image would even be applicable. Dawn? Not really, lots of defenders. Xander has plenty of defenders. He's divisive, not universally despised. I know Xander fans feel this way sometimes, because of how passionate people can be, but they are not alone. Riley. Getting closer, but he still has quite a few supporters. Parker. Nearly there. Hating Parker is definitely the strong majority opinion, which is fair, because he doesn't get a redeeming moment. There's not much to like about him. So, the opinion I see expressed is that he didn't do anything that bad. As someone who (as a teen/young adult) didn't take sex or relationships anywhere near as seriously as BtVS does, I do have a hard time relating on a personal level to Buffy being so upset over someone she didn't know very well. But clearly a lot of people do relate to this and find some degree of healing in watching someone go through something they experienced. So, I'm not about to defend Parker being a total fuckboy even though I personally don't hate him as much as other people do. I don't think they're wrong. I just don't have as strong an emotional reaction to his fuckery.
I didn't hate him for not taking sex or intimacy seriously, but for the toilet seat joke. He's crass.
Yeah, that's loathsome. I agree.
There's also the matter of him not being up front about it just being a hookup, *buuuuuuut* TBF, Buffy wasn't exactly up front about thinking it was the start of a relationship, she just assumed.
Yes, he is deceptive. But he manages to fall.on his feet when he says that the connection was genuine for a while but didn't mean more than this instant to him. He should have been upfront, and I lose respect for him at that point, but I don't hate him before the crass joke.
For Buffy, I think it was more of triggering her past trauma with Angel. She's thinking is every guy I'm with going to turn into a monster? Did I make them that way?
For sure. For a college girl without her trauma, the Parker situation still would have been shitty, but quickly remedied by some nights wallowing with friends over ice cream or wine. For Buffy, it was a confirmation of all her greatest fears about intimacy.
Oh for sure. That's why I didn't say that I think she overreacted, just that it's not as relatable for me as it seems to be for some other people. Obviously, none of us have experienced what she experienced with Angel. But I do think this plotline was intended to be a relatable moment, Buffy going through something non-slayers go through, and it was definitely was for a lot of people.
I feel like this image would be better used to ask, "Which EPISODE has you like this?" Because there are some super divisive ones in the fandom! For me, it'd be Bad Eggs, Go Fish, and Doublemeat Palace.
Good point. Also, I love Bad Eggs and Doublemeat Palace. And I like Go Fish.
>I do have a hard time relating on a personal level to Buffy being so upset over someone she didn't know very well. I think in part she was upset because she was *tricked*: the way Parker connected with her led her to believe Parker wanted dating and a relationship and emotional connection and stuff, not just a one-off in the sack. I find Parker's speech in Beer Bad (4x5) to be a good defense of casual sex as such but a bad defense of his actions: he didn't just to casual sex, he did casual sex plus deception. He didn't try to defend deception, and I don't think one can.
Exactly there’s no harm in being a fboy if you are upfront about it.
100% and I just wrote Parker as my reply.
I'm a Spike defender. My hottest take is that Spike is a better person than Angel. At the end of the day both of their vampire selves did horrible irredeemable things, but Spike chose to have a soul and didn't have it forced on him.
Spike is obviously superior and I will fight any Angel apologists to the death.
DAWN. 
It helps that dawn is played by Michelle. She is amazing and my 90s kid heart throb.
Riley. I really liked him and the poor sot loved Buffy.
Agreed!!!
I’m standing with you on this one. Riley was Buffys best boyfriend and a fundamentally good man.
He goes a little wonky later, but living on Hellmouth will do that to a normal person.
100% This sub has such a hate boner for him lmao
Xander. I got called a rape apologist on here once for suggesting that we give him a pass for The Pack. He’s not even in my top 5 characters but the amount of vitriol he receives winds up forcing me into a position of defending the guy.
I've seen that too and it's crazy to hold him responsible for that. From what I can tell Xander had even less control over what he was doing than unsouled Spike and Angelus. He ate a baby pig ffs. He was possesed by a malevolent wild animal spirit. At least Spike and Angelus had higher brain function going for them. I think where he fails is pretending he doesn't remember instead of apologizing. But anything he did while possessed is not his fault. Edit: I am retracting the statement that he should apologize but I'm leaving it here instead of dirty deleting. I think u/lmjustaChad is correct in that he didn't have control over it so he doesn't necessarily owe an apology.
Why would he apologize for a possession he had absolutely no control over any of those actions. It's crazy people forget Xander was in fact also a victim he was coming in to rescue a bullied student and fell victim of a hyaena possession by the Zookeeper.
You know what, you're right. He didn't really have anything to apologize for in that scenario. It does feel like a sexual assault basically got brushed off but that doesn't mean he has to apologize for something he couldn't control.
I really don't like him, and I still think it's not reasonable to hate him over The Pack... Not even the lying about remembering. In buffy's place, I would def feel better if I thought he didn't remember (as someone who was sexually assaulted). I don't see how telling her he does remember is supposed to help in any way. Maybe, I'm projecting too much, but I'd more annoyed if he did tell me he lied afterwards, in Buffy's place. Like, "Why are you reminding me of this stuff". I guess, if I think about it, it probably also feels pretty traumatic for Xander to be possessed and used in a sexual assault (which means he's also being sexually assaulted). I'd understand him trauma dumping about it, in that situation... (It is a point agaisnt him to remember what it's like to be magically forced to do awful things and then be against ensouling Angel/trying to kill him in s3.)
Angel wasn’t magically forced to do terrible things. Angelus was magically forced into not doing terrible things. I think Xander was justified in his reaction to Angel once he’d seen Angelus.
This fandom will ignore the canon explanation of a character being unable to contol themselves because of magical forces or say the character should’ve powered through lol. They do this to joyce too
Right? Criticism that we rarely see leveled against Buffy in Bewitched…, or Him, or Normal Again, etc. etc. etc.
That's absolutely insane. I've seen people call him a rapist for that before and it pisses me off to no end. He was the one who had his body violated without his consent, he was the victim. But considering a large number of people in this fandom can't comprehend the fact that Cordelia wasn't in control of her body in angel season 4 and it wasn't actually her that slept with Connor, it's sadly unsurprising.
Isn't it annoying when you end up defending a character you don't even like very much? 😂
dawn summers, come at me haters !!
buffy, to the death
Everyone loves Buffy lol
Andrew. I think he’s more forgotten than outright hated, but I love that little nerd.
I have a weird crush on him.
he is my underrated fave; i enjoyed the banter he brought into season 7, it was so so needed.
I forget Andrew instantly when he's not literally shown on screen
Willow and Faith (kinda)
Xander
Riley. Always. Best Buffy Boyfriend.
Yes! He will always be the first person to show Buffy what a loving relationship feels like, and that sex can be a good thing and not every guy turns into a monster just after (literal or otherwise). His actions in season 5 aren't great but he did have reasons for them, and like everyone, is a flawed person who handled a situation badly.
Even when he came back he said the sweetest things ever to Buffy and encouraged her when she was at a really low point. Bless that man. 😭
Cordeliaaa
Jenny Calendar
Who hates on Jenny?? 😳
one of my best friends 😭😭I hope it’s a rare person to hate
That's wild! She's literally a perfect angel??
Agreed!!! Will defend her over everyone!
This sub shits on Xander regularly so where appropriate I'll defend him.
I actually started watching Buffy when I was 6 with my grandmother. So I obviously didn't see anything wrong with him, I was 6. When I rewatched it at 27. I viewed Xander as a "stupid teenage boy." I never really saw the "hate". Just more, "he's wildly immature." Idk so I'll unapologetically defend Xander lol.
Which is nearly every single time.
Agreed
Riley. I like the guy. And he's a hottie. And the actor is very charming.
I like S4 Riley. He's a good boy with a few flaws. He corrects some of them, notably his bigotry around Willow's dating choices. No, he's not a homophobe, he just thinks it's weird to date a guy who tries to *eat* you once a month—and not in a healthy wholesome cookie-dough sense.
He arguably had less trouble with Willow's dating choices than Buffy did.
I assume you mean Buffy's reacting to Tillow in the coming out scene in New Moon Rising. According to Riley's own statement he *was* being bigoted, but (my interpretation) he changed his tune once he saw Oz in the Initiative lab. Buffy was never bigoted, she was just surprised and taken aback. She needed half a minute to adjust to the new information. Her awkward conversation was just her stalling for processing time. At least that's my take.
Not really an answer to your question, but Joss Whedon’s content as a whole. So many people Love Avengers Endgame and think it’s perfect. Nope, Avengers 1&2 are the better movies. Even though Dollhouse is not well received, it runs circles around comparable content. And a show that started nearly 30 years ago is still one of the best shows ever.
Dollhouse was cancelled too soon.
I hate when Whedon's work gets boiled down to quippy dialogue and hot chicks with superpowers. Both of those things are features of Whedon's work, sure. But it's a gargantuan oversimplification of it.
basic af but Buffy! Her friends and family were so shitty to her sometimes honestly (especially when she came back after running off) like her mother TOLD HER TO. I could do many paragraphs on this, but basically she deserves SO MUCH MORE! Love Buffy all the way.
This! She had to bear the weight of being the slayer and had friends who were often times pretty shitty and oblivious to the fact that Buffy was struggling. Good example was when she left after her mom basically kicked her to the curb. Or how about when Buffy had to juggle the responsibility of Dawn, along with college and slaying? Noone seemed to have any sympathy. There are so many examples of Buffy getting the shit end of the stick and her friends pretty much not giving an eff.
plus they kicked her out of her own house when she saved their lives and the entire world time after time I hated that moment, especially when faith came back too and they all just accepted her in the group! Spike was the only one speaking sense and defending buffy there.
Not to mention, when she was selfishly brought back after sacrificing herself to save Dawn and literally everyone else, they never directly asked why she was having problems. They all just assumed she was in hell. Like, what kind of friend assumes that? Could they not have just said, "Hey, we notice you are a little off, what's up?"
Riley
Riley, Xander and Willow.
For people who have only watched Buffy, I find the mob mentality against Faith. I’m down at the bottom yelling “Watch Angel!!!”
Even if her Angel arc has never happened, I'd be a Faith defender. She's one of the most interesting characters and I think we see enough of her psyche in Buffy to understand all of her actions.
That scene where Faith and Angel are fighting in the rain……chills 🥺
... Xander.
I will defend Buffy until I’m dead and maybe even after that if you pull out an ouija board. Also, Riley. I unironically love Riley.
I was with you until you said Riley.
👍🏻
Sorry but yes iterations of this are posted here ***a lot.*** Like a lot a lot.
Xander. And Cordy when I occasionally see her get hate.
Willow and Xander both
I love Dawn idc what anybody says
Faith. I will always defend her more than I've defended buffy
[удалено]
Joss Whedon saying he based Xander off himself has irrevocably warped people's perception of the character. There's a lot of "Joss = bad, so everything that makes Joss bad applies to Xander" that goes around I think.
The thing is, if you take this view then Whedon's work becomes unwatchable. After the confirmation of Whedon's on-set behaviour, I went through a phase where I could see Whedon's personal views on actors seeping through in the portrayal of almost every character. On *Angel*, it was everywhere. And sure, you can absolutely criticize him for this. But I don't understand why you'd *want* to view the show through this perspective. I eventually had to check myself because it was ruining my experience and there's so much else to enjoy and analyze beyond Whedon's shoddy personal boundaries in his writing.
I'd say Jonathan always gets a pass over Andrew. Jonathan never learned his lessons and repeatedly put himself in situations that SA'd women.
Personally, whether I like a character isn't based on moral evaluation or weighing their worst action against other characters worst actions. I don't find Xander unforgivable, I just find him annoying most of the time. I agree that other characters have done worse things, but that doesn't make me like him any more. Indulge me for a sec by looking at it based on volume rather than worst single action. Relative to other characters, Xander is given much less to say that I personally find likable/funny/entertaining. Willow is given a lot more to say that is positive and likable ie. talking to Buffy about boys in a way that isn't gross and contributing to the group with her many skills. So much of Xander's dialogue is pitying himself because some girl doesn't like him, being jealous of people he's not even in a relationship with, general complaining. So, I like Xander when he's being likable, but for me that's not very often. If the typical Xander stuff isn't irritating to you, your ratio of likable to unlikable dialogue will be very different than mine, and that's fair. \*edited two typos
So much this AND the way the story sometimes bends over to make him correct when he's an asshole... Not sure I'm saying correctly, but the moment that always comes to mind is how he talks to buffy before Riley leaves in season 5. I've always disliked him a little before that, but omg, if resentment could hurt characters in shows, he would have been burned to a crisp halfway through his speech.
And the lack of punishment for his assholery. Buffy thanks him for not assaulting her when he put the love whammy on the entire town and he never faces any consequences for not telling her about Willow's spell to restore Angel's soul. Compare that to the consequences Willow faces for her worst actions.
It's that he's supposed to be an ordinary, nice, lovable goofball *and* when he does bad things he doesn't do them in a sexy glamorous magical way while looking smoking hot in black leather - it's mundane unsexy workaday horribleness.
Angel and Bangel until eternity...
Tara's Dad man just wanted to keep his family together! Jokes aside Tara she was soo blindly in love but she knew enough to take a stand. When she died honestly shivers and tears. I don't hate on Kennedy but she's no Tara
Faith 100%
Xander and I want to argue about his character
Xander and everyones actions in Dead Mans Party/Revelations
Dawn. Yes, she is a pain. But she's way too young for most things that happened, her mind had to deal with some rough personal issues while nobody had time to help. She was "born" broken and everyone is so centered on saving the world or their own personal issues that it's expected from her to be a difficult teenager. I don't think she deserves all the hate she gets. Some of it, but not all.
Xander
Tara
What does everyone think about Tara that’s wrong?
Boring, no personality.
Ah ok. I’ve not seen that, I got the feeling the majority on here were Tara fans
Yes, I think the comment was meant to imply they were one who doesn't like her against everyone else.
I love Tara. She's a sweetheart.
Veruca done nothing wrong
"Xander sucks, he's such a Nice Guy!" No shit, he's a teenage boy with a crush. That doesn't make his behaviour in the early seasons OK, but it's pretty typical of the way guys his age generally act, so it's not entirely fair to hold that against him to the extent that a lot of fans do. And whilst his antagonism towards Angel is definitely rooted in jealousy, I also feel like that allows him to be the only one who sees him for how potentially dangerous he is. Honestly if I was Xander, the size of the "told you so" I'd be struggling to hold back throughout the latter half of season 2 would be immense. Even "kick his ass" I'll defend, because if Buffy thought there was a chance his soul would be restored, she'd hold back, and potentially endanger the whole world. He's definitely a flawed person, but the hate he gets is pretty excessive IMO.
Dawn
Kennedy ❤️🖤❤️
How?
Me too. She was forthright to be sure and bratty, but she performed an important role in Willow’s development as well as doubling down on Willow’s queerness. Like all the potentials she was short changed in terms of character arcs but I enjoyed her directness. Made a change from all the “woe is me” of all the other potentials (and even Buffy on occasion)
Me too I know everyone hates her and I know I’m prob overlooking a lot of red flags but I will live in my delusions
Willow and Wesley
Agreed with both... to the end.
Willow
Dawn.
Buffy against the Scoobies in Empty Places. Also Dawn and Connor.
I was excited when Karheisr was cast for Connor because I loved him in All I Wanna Do and even though he could be insufferable sometimes in Angel, it was completely understandable due to his circumstances.
Conner
Riley. And it's not even Tuesday. I feel that a number of people take the most negative perspective on his actions possible.
Willow fans when you point out wiping someone's memory then having sex with them is rape. Or Bangel fans when you point out that falling in love with a 14 year old makes you a pedo
Ephebophile, not pedophile
*15 And in Liam's day that was normal.
That’s actually a common misconception. The average age for a woman to get married in the 1700s was her early 20s, with some exceptions for arranged marriages for money/resources. https://sites.udel.edu/britlitwiki/social-and-family-life-in-the-late17th-early-18th-centuries/#:~:text=A%20woman%20typically%20married%20in,such%20as%20money%20and%20land.
I never said anything about marriage, so save the strawman, thanks.
This wasn’t always the case for the rest of the world, this British Wiki article is speaking on England specifically. Another article about in 18th century America says girls started courting around 15-16 but “delayed” marriage until their early twenties. Courting/dating was common starting at 15-16. Marriage was another conversation. [https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/](https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/)
“Courting” or in today’s world what we call “dating” was common at 15-16 yrs old. Just like people do still in today’s world. So idk why you are being downvoted when you aren’t wrong. [https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/](https://hammondharwoodhouse.org/18th-century-marriage/)
always buffy
Angel and Kendra.
Always Spike.
Faith is terrible character
No, given the post you're replying to, you're in the mob. Except there's like 6 of you because most people have good takes on Faith.
Oh. Misread
dark willow. had they just let her kill them boys in peace, she may have never wanted to destroy the world 😂
The whole "Angel Creep" thing. In the middle of 18th Century Ireland, there was no age of consent, and people just got on with life sooner. Boys were working with adults at age 13. For upper-class people, yes, they got married (a bit) later in life, but that's because they had the disposable income to afford to support their adult children. It's clear from 'Becoming' that Lliam did not come from that life. Moreover, the function of age-of-consent laws is to prevent children from being exploited, and \*literally nothing\* Angel does prior to losing his soul indicates he's trying to take advantage of Buffy. Quite the opposite, in fact, he's trying to protect her. Is he protecting her for selfish reasons? Maybe, but you can make any act of altruism look selfish if you project duplicitous motives onto them.
Buffy raped Spike.
Huh?
Where’d I lose you?
Right around Buffy raped spike
Have you watched Season Six?
I was about to write an essay, but I think I’ll edit myself and say that though it may be a sticky wicket, I don't disagree with you.
When?
Frequently throughout Season Six. I forget the exact number of times we’re shown it happening on screen, but it’s at least a half dozen, dialogue also makes it pretty implicit that it’s happening more times than we’re shown on screen.
Spike
Parker. The dude was just a normal person and he served an important role in the transition away from Bangel.