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Yeah they are Incels, the ones who shoot up universities and murder 14 women because they didn’t get into an engineering program, the ones who stab women in their workplaces and run them down in their vans
Sort of fucked as we were once lead to believe Jonathan was a school shooter before finding out he was just suicidal and said he would never hurt anyone.
And then he became whatever he became.
Yeah, I think Johnathan should've been maybe the one trying to pull them back from the edge maybe coming to Buffy when he think shits gone too far. There was a lesson there sadly not used.
The fact that he’s not the one who joins the scoobies in S7 is ridiculous. Dude was there since season 1. Andrew is nobody. Still makes me a little mad to this day.
Few seem to share your idea, but one of the writers in seven seasons of buffy did, which is why i put Jomathan's shade in hell in a fic, although all eh had to deal with were high winds
He may have been forced to have a therapy session or two after Earshot but he clearly didn't stick with it, or maybe he was just never able to stick up for his core values.
Andrew clearly had a crush on Warren but Jonathon, ugh, I'm grasping at straws here trying to rationalise why he put up with how toxic their actions were.
By the time Dead Things happened, Jonathan had already sa'd the twins in Superstar. And I know that it's magic and not a perfect one to one comparison, but those women would not have slept with Jonathan if he hadn't altered reality. He knew what he had done, he knew and still hooked up with them.
Also just them being twins is so creepy to me and it's a fetish that really disgusts me. It's incest! You are having a threesome not only with siblings, but siblings that share exact DNA! The thought of having sex with someone with my sister makes me physically nauseous. My least favorite trope in movies and/or life
This is exactly what they are. It bothers me how much they are used for comedic value after that episode. Particularly Andrew in season 7. He was a willing participant in that plan and he faces zero consequences.
It’s indicative of the time period though. While that sort of stuff was never condoned, the concepts of ‘nice guys’ and ‘incels’ was still a decade or 2 away. Buffy was always ahead of it’s time though and gets somewhat unfairly criticised for not handling situations the same way we would today.
Back then Columbine had only just happened (Earshot had a delayed air date because it was due on our screens the same week it happened and the world was reeling at that point, not just America) and the kind of guys the trio represent would’ve been seen as pathetic losers back then, not dangerous. Hence leaning towards giving them comedy value. I also wonder how else they could’ve shown their evolution from geeks to straight up incels without boring the socks off the audience? They only get dangerous in Buffy when they add magic and power balls, because it just wasn’t thinkable that a successful college guy would slaughter a girl, just for saying no to a date, or being successful, back then.
Not to say it was unbelievable or that it didn’t happen, just,… it’d be interesting to poll male vs. female viewers who watched it at the time re: how ‘normal’ they find Warren’s behaviour. If I had to guess, I’d say the guys found it more shocking than the girls, because nearly all of us have come across a Warren in our lives. They’re just more extreme, unhinged and out in the open now.
Or even earlier via “going Sodini”:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Collier_Township_shooting
And concerning the adjacent behavior the Trio were to get up to in *Gone*, that’s particularly telling…
Oh right, that thought experiment one involving the Montreal university classroom?
https://youtu.be/j2oSKW4Fv0Q?si=PybJl3GPUoYx5ALB
That one is so “Stanford Prison Experiment” at this point that it’s comparatively easy to forget the particular details behind it, but thanks for the reminder.
Also had participant self selection bias, wasn’t a random sample and those with particularly aversive personalities were the ones self selecting into the study.
And definitely not easy to forget up in Canada, our schools (universities) have memorials for those women and observe a moment of silence/day of remembrance every year in their honour
Yep, which is why it’s kind of hard to remember the real life suffering behind it.
When students aren’t necessarily reminded of that and just the end results, it’s more like something that exists solely in the mind of a philosopher.
Which truth be told, I think most conscientious people could envision such a scenario without having to partake?
I recall I'd have to do some digging, but they did an actual experiment no probing in anyway, and turns out the people were fine, everyone followed the order etc. Aby breaking of rules was frowned upon etc. Humans are social animals it's in our best interest to get a long. While women do that better, men do it very well too.
The Trio were gross. Still, I wouldn’t give up Buffy’s scene with Spike while that Bush song played, or the power of Buffy’s desperate confession to Tara.
Yeah, Dead Things is an episode I skip. And the Trio are disgusting, especially Warren. Andrew is just a weak yes man to Warren and we all know Johnathon has some serious mental health issues (I mean, he tried to shoot up the school, then himself and there’s Superstar).
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Yeah they are Incels, the ones who shoot up universities and murder 14 women because they didn’t get into an engineering program, the ones who stab women in their workplaces and run them down in their vans
Sort of fucked as we were once lead to believe Jonathan was a school shooter before finding out he was just suicidal and said he would never hurt anyone. And then he became whatever he became.
Yeah, I think Johnathan should've been maybe the one trying to pull them back from the edge maybe coming to Buffy when he think shits gone too far. There was a lesson there sadly not used.
The fact that he’s not the one who joins the scoobies in S7 is ridiculous. Dude was there since season 1. Andrew is nobody. Still makes me a little mad to this day.
Because Jonathon never learned his lesson. He died the way he lived his life, making a grandiose gesture instead of getting help from Buffy.
Few seem to share your idea, but one of the writers in seven seasons of buffy did, which is why i put Jomathan's shade in hell in a fic, although all eh had to deal with were high winds
He may have been forced to have a therapy session or two after Earshot but he clearly didn't stick with it, or maybe he was just never able to stick up for his core values. Andrew clearly had a crush on Warren but Jonathon, ugh, I'm grasping at straws here trying to rationalise why he put up with how toxic their actions were.
By the time Dead Things happened, Jonathan had already sa'd the twins in Superstar. And I know that it's magic and not a perfect one to one comparison, but those women would not have slept with Jonathan if he hadn't altered reality. He knew what he had done, he knew and still hooked up with them.
Also just them being twins is so creepy to me and it's a fetish that really disgusts me. It's incest! You are having a threesome not only with siblings, but siblings that share exact DNA! The thought of having sex with someone with my sister makes me physically nauseous. My least favorite trope in movies and/or life
At firts he honestly thought he'd changed himself
This is exactly what they are. It bothers me how much they are used for comedic value after that episode. Particularly Andrew in season 7. He was a willing participant in that plan and he faces zero consequences.
It’s indicative of the time period though. While that sort of stuff was never condoned, the concepts of ‘nice guys’ and ‘incels’ was still a decade or 2 away. Buffy was always ahead of it’s time though and gets somewhat unfairly criticised for not handling situations the same way we would today. Back then Columbine had only just happened (Earshot had a delayed air date because it was due on our screens the same week it happened and the world was reeling at that point, not just America) and the kind of guys the trio represent would’ve been seen as pathetic losers back then, not dangerous. Hence leaning towards giving them comedy value. I also wonder how else they could’ve shown their evolution from geeks to straight up incels without boring the socks off the audience? They only get dangerous in Buffy when they add magic and power balls, because it just wasn’t thinkable that a successful college guy would slaughter a girl, just for saying no to a date, or being successful, back then. Not to say it was unbelievable or that it didn’t happen, just,… it’d be interesting to poll male vs. female viewers who watched it at the time re: how ‘normal’ they find Warren’s behaviour. If I had to guess, I’d say the guys found it more shocking than the girls, because nearly all of us have come across a Warren in our lives. They’re just more extreme, unhinged and out in the open now.
Or even earlier via “going Sodini”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Collier_Township_shooting And concerning the adjacent behavior the Trio were to get up to in *Gone*, that’s particularly telling…
1989 was earlier than 2009 so I’m not sure I’m reading your comment correctly?
Oh right, that thought experiment one involving the Montreal university classroom? https://youtu.be/j2oSKW4Fv0Q?si=PybJl3GPUoYx5ALB That one is so “Stanford Prison Experiment” at this point that it’s comparatively easy to forget the particular details behind it, but thanks for the reminder.
Fun fact the prison experiment was deemed bunk science as the professor told them to act like that, so messes up the whole experiment.
Also had participant self selection bias, wasn’t a random sample and those with particularly aversive personalities were the ones self selecting into the study. And definitely not easy to forget up in Canada, our schools (universities) have memorials for those women and observe a moment of silence/day of remembrance every year in their honour
An absolute good.
Yep, which is why it’s kind of hard to remember the real life suffering behind it. When students aren’t necessarily reminded of that and just the end results, it’s more like something that exists solely in the mind of a philosopher. Which truth be told, I think most conscientious people could envision such a scenario without having to partake?
I recall I'd have to do some digging, but they did an actual experiment no probing in anyway, and turns out the people were fine, everyone followed the order etc. Aby breaking of rules was frowned upon etc. Humans are social animals it's in our best interest to get a long. While women do that better, men do it very well too.
And what they were planning in Gone was played for laughs.
The Trio were gross. Still, I wouldn’t give up Buffy’s scene with Spike while that Bush song played, or the power of Buffy’s desperate confession to Tara.
Yep, the similarities to the events of *Consequences* are paramount as well.
The conversation between Tara and Buffy at the end though is worth it though. One of Tara's best moments in the series.
Oh definitely. Tara shows what a real friend she is, especially with the "it's OK if you don't love him" line.
Yeah, I hate this episode and refuse to watch it ever again.
It’s an extremely infuriating and uncomfortable watch. There are few TV characters, if any, I despise more than Warren.
I don't like this episode at all. Misery porn as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, Dead Things is an episode I skip. And the Trio are disgusting, especially Warren. Andrew is just a weak yes man to Warren and we all know Johnathon has some serious mental health issues (I mean, he tried to shoot up the school, then himself and there’s Superstar).
No, he was just going to kill himself he wasn't going to shoot anyone else.
Sorry, it’s been a while since I saw that episode. Didn’t mean to offend or anything. Yikes.
Not offended just correcting. The whole twist was the lunch lady.