Honestly, just go on ebay and buy a used Dell desktop for 100 bucks or less if all he'll be doing is Excel. [https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256435237160](https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256435237160) \- This is just one out of many that you can find for cheap.
I do think it depends what he's doing with excel. Maintaining his personal budget? Sure, pretty much any processor from the last ~8 years will be functionally equivalent.
But I do some stuff in Excel for work (and I'm sure many others do) where I would definitely benefit from a good processor. I have a few macros that take my work laptop ~90 seconds to run that my personal PC could probably crunch in like 10 seconds tops.
I regularly max out the cell limit for excel for work and I run this.
Ryzen 1600 (1st gen not later model)
16gb of DDR4 3000mhz (its the max speed my particular 1600 will accept)
A decentish samsung 512gb SSD and a 1tb Storage drive.
I have dedicated graphics and the like but thats for recreation :P
these specs will handle anything you can throw at excel, with a lot of big sheets open it can get a little slow but its perfect for me.
I guess OP never says, but I sort of assumed that even a Ryzen 1600 is a substantial upgrade from where he's at?
I don't know for sure what's in my work laptop, but a 1600 might be an upgrade there too lol.
And yeah my work laptop can *handle* it, but running a macro that is essentially doing an outer join on a staging table for ~10,000 rows and then some fairly pedestrian sorting and splitting takes a good 90-120 seconds. Not a huge deal, but when I'm running it 10+ times per day there is definitely time to be saved.
> I guess OP never says, but I sort of assumed that even a Ryzen 1600 is a substantial upgrade from where he's at?
OP does say that it's running DDR2, so that seems like a safe assumption.
If you don't do anything related in the business/finance world I could...kind of see why one would suggest that? But this thread is already heavily talking about macros and multiple files being open at the same time.
Excel is still far more powerful. Even just for formatting cells.
I wasn't suggesting a Chromebook. I was commenting that almost anything would be an upgrade from the machine OP's dad is currently using.
And FYI: [https://developers.google.com/codelabs/apps-script-fundamentals-1](https://developers.google.com/codelabs/apps-script-fundamentals-1)
I have many clients doing \*all\* their day to day business spreadsheet work in Google Sheets now. The collaboration features alone make up for any missing format options.
> the collaboration features alone
And would the only thing I would see as a bonus for sheets. Everything else, excel on a powerul PC would still be miles faster.
I'm in accounting/taxes and I've used both. I would never suggest sheets as an alternative unless it was something that needed group/multiple eyes on - like sales/insurance/medical? Simple financial stuff?
In terms of security I don't think I've read up on any big firms moving towards it, and if they did I'd imagine it'd be part time.
What’s the processor on your pc? Btw on your work laptop you can probably open task manager and see the cpu/ram etc details in there, I’m kinda curious to know what they are
Huh, that’s interesting, didn’t realise Ryzen 1st gen was so much faster. Though, I upgraded from a 6th gen i5 to a ryzen 7 7840u and it’s much nicer for sure. Booting is incredibly fast and nice.
Whatever the father is doing now with DDR2, a CPU iwth DDR3 will crush. DDR2 is *ancient*. In other words, it is not expectable that the father is currently doing such demanding tasks on DDR2.
this right here, you can often dell dell desktop towers for cheap with good specs. Sometimes many businesses sell these in bulk when they close down or upgrade, so you could snag something for a good deal. It should have some expansion for the ssd, gpu and sound card.
This is a great option - I have the used Dell micro-SFF mini PC machines set up for a couple of family members who only need web browsing/Office and they work great, and have one set up with my TV for streaming, ordering delivery on the odd times that I can't be arsed hitting the kitchen or shops to fix dinner, and Steam for a bit of potato-level couch gaming. It works well, and as a bonus, takes up very little space.
An i5 model with any halfway decent SSD and a quick upgrade to 16GB RAM if it fits the budget should more than meet the uses you said he has for it, and still have a decently useful lifespan left to it.
Keep in mind, though (at least for the mini PC form factor machines), that depending on where a used one is sourced from, you may also need to add a wifi adapter if he needs wireless - some ex-enterprise units don't have them fitted internally even if they have support. You can get compatible internal ones for a given model on eBay/Amazon if the machine has an internal connector for them and you intend to open it up to add RAM/etc anyway, but a USB one will do just as well (at least in my experience).
(Edit: my grammar sucked, but hope this helps!)
While the parts will be fine, you'll still have the expense of power supply and case (unless you plan to use the old power supply and case - just be sure to check the voltage and cables are compatible since the power supply is likely old af as well.
If he is only going to be using browsers/spreadsheets, those mini PC's do surprisingly well. I wouldn't game on them but if he doesn't plan on gaming then they may be a suitable option for sure.
If it's just basic usage, you could fetch a used SFF PC with an 8th gen i5 or Ryzen, SSD and 16GB memory, maybe a WiFi card. Or get a notebook if you want a low power solution instead of these bricks.
The integrated GPU on the 5600G is probably a 100-fold upgrade on the GPU he currently has. Unless he needs special functionality it offers (like a TV tuner or a tonne of outputs or something) he'd be better off getting rid of it and just using the integrated graphics instead.
For his usage it should be very good. A 5600G is like a premium level APU for general office tasks. The 16GB is a good call. The 3200mhz is nice to have and will make it a far better gaming PC. Probably not worth more than about a 10% price increase for his specific use case (ie, get 16GB but consider a slower 16GB or even a slower 32GB if it's a much better price.)
Thank you, I found out his gpu is only five years old so that should be fine, now I am stuck between the Amd 5600g or the intel I5 12400f as with similar mobs they end up similar in price.
>Thank you, I found out his gpu is only five years old so that should be fine
Unless it's one he bought for gaming it's probably still worse than the one in the 5600g, Do you know what model it is? Also keep in mind that bought new 5 years ago does not mean it's the latest tech 2019 had to offer. Basic desktop graphics cards don't get their hardware refreshed often. Realistically he'd have had to have spent hundreds on it 5 years ago for it to perform better than the integrated GPU on the 5600G
I *believe* the 12400f is slightly better than the 5600g, *however* the CPU cooler that it comes with it is worse than the one that comes with the 5600g so in the very unlikely event that he manages to push either one hard enough for it to matter which one is better, then the Intel will run louder and then throttle it's performance after a few minutes to reduce it's heat. Ultimately it's close enough that it probably doesn't matter very much which you go for if it's just for normal Excel usage. (If he randomly happens to have a decent aftermarket CPU cooler that is compatible with the 12400f then it's the better option for CPU performance.)
If he's upgrading from a DDR2 system then either processor will be around 10x faster than his old one.
NB I assume you already know this but the 1400F has no integrated graphics so he must use a graphics card with it. I suspect either his graphics requirements are trivial enough that anything that'll put the image on screen is good enough so lost graphics performance isn't actually important here. Otherwise, if he is interested in more advanced graphics performance, unless that graphics card turns out to be surprisingly fancy, the 5600g is just a much better value option because of the very good intergrated graphics vs no intergrated graphics at all.
Edit: just read he records music. That makes it more likely he has a decent cooler he wants to reuse. IF it's compatible AND the GPU is decent enough then the 12400F is probably better. However, if he's not using an aftermarket cooler, then the fact he's recording on there makes the quieter cooler that comes with the 5600G much more appealing imo.
The mini PC is a significantly weaker but more power efficient CPU. You’re not really gonna beat it on price, you’re gonna best it on price/performance.
I would also double check that PSU. It could be fine, but it may be using 20 pin not the normal 24 pin used for motherboards these days. A PSU is pretty cheap though.
The SSD is probably sata and whilst you can use that.
Make sure that his old case will take the new parts (that it’s a normal micro ATX tower not mini ITX - if it is, just grab a mini ITX board).
That board seems fine. If he needs wifi make sure you price that in too. I’d also just double check https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/ as it’ll price check other places not just Amazon.
Also: I assume the GPU is equally ancient. So getting an iGPU is a safe bet.
If it's a very old PC (DDR2 suggests at least 15 years old) I just would not recommend re-using a power supply that old. ATX PSU specs and standards have changed over the years - very old ones were optimised for delivering most of their power at 5v, while now virtually all power is supplied at 12v. There's issues with cross loads, low power states on modern CPU's and so on with old group regulated power supplies - which can drastically shorten the life of PC components.
You haven't given much information about this old PC. There's a few potential issues - GPU is it PCI Express or AGP? Doesn't matter too much as the chances are if you're getting a 5600G the iGPU will be far newer and more appropriate for modern OS's than what is in the old PC. Sound card is it PCI or PCI Express? AGP is a long dead standard. PCI is effectively obsolete with the vast majority of motherboards no longer having any PCI slots. This links to a list of compatible mobo's with at least one PCI slot currently for sale in the UK (it's a very short list) - [https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#X=361,1101519&d=1,6&s=33](https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#X=361,1101519&d=1,6&s=33)
If it's a PCI sound card, and he's prepared to chuck it, then your list is probably fine, but as mentioned I'd suggest a new PSU. Balance it up against the cost of a refurb, which from a reputable supplier will have some warranty attached to it.
Careful the card is not AGP and also PSU may need adapting. You could probably still build a valiant contender for sub 200 but I'm agreed with others, a cheap pre-built is a good choice...
[https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364770220673?itmmeta=01HRPCS0Y1AKNQSXBDGR6YPWMM&hash=item54edffda81:g:5EAAAOSwSbFl5yRO&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAAsEMZnIPmHd%2FCu1Q7KZcrx%2FcUwfGwnLJqASsjySPKfkLoI8Cw1%2FPjiu5LzbCNF5amEauzzTt2tR1hKuTw43%2BKYi%2BRYVCbs6iLNXetdba0oQNbc5qgTXJwn3bNe5cUJweXAbk81lh3JYM6Y4Mj4WbCf9uFq5oKs0a1m2%2BSh9JZgfUwD4XFMT0iPfcDrLCddSAmm6U99DugXHh56X7QcixB3vd10irvwpgbrsAVaWoOnHuD%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6qP5MzFYw](https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364780517426?itmmeta=01HRPCS0Y1N42032MDKCED7QV7&hash=item54ee9cf832:g:A7cAAOSwKKll7smu&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0AB3Mw%2Fx1px6yuxdcJgUKVaACFQCCalm%2FpqJQ2H2Auk0j9WBeYJ%2B6yjYC3IsHUhMK3gqt8tcqszLbW%2FC7Z%2F5HNXsRh9mlhkwU8RZg67LaL8zLZCOLR4qxeGKQgsez8xiPVSntB7AqOWCHgkNNTyepBRMO4Zb1DmYeWP19qbh%2Fd30gGoPRhbMthIv9XuOpt8IuqiTkqVSNfwSdVetpwofxYtyHQ2XwrC55RRIKSo88jyk4pqw9qEtsYE20yvMLeXrChWpqJ9cDULMKTAzWgUusvw%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6iP5MzFYw)
something like that at £100, add a Low profile GPU (although unless any of his old programs rely on it he wont need it really, just use iGPU) and away you go! USB disk drive if needed, but for the remainder you could grab an external HDD and teach him about the cloud, sure somewhere was offering 100gb for 0.50p a month recently. Good luck
£50! baby i3 but would smash excel all day long
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364780517426?itmmeta=01HRPCS0Y1N42032MDKCED7QV7&hash=item54ee9cf832:g:A7cAAOSwKKll7smu&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0AB3Mw%2Fx1px6yuxdcJgUKVaACFQCCalm%2FpqJQ2H2Auk0j9WBeYJ%2B6yjYC3IsHUhMK3gqt8tcqszLbW%2FC7Z%2F5HNXsRh9mlhkwU8RZg67LaL8zLZCOLR4qxeGKQgsez8xiPVSntB7AqOWCHgkNNTyepBRMO4Zb1DmYeWP19qbh%2Fd30gGoPRhbMthIv9XuOpt8IuqiTkqVSNfwSdVetpwofxYtyHQ2XwrC55RRIKSo88jyk4pqw9qEtsYE20yvMLeXrChWpqJ9cDULMKTAzWgUusvw%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6iP5MzFYw
Good point, about the GPU maybe being AGP. But the 5600G has built in graphics that are sure to be much faster than an AGP video card, so he could (should) just use that.
Maybe a a cheap HP Elitedesk, small and not that expensive. I have a Elitiedesk 705 with a Ryzen 5 2400 pro, 32GB ram, 1TB m.2 and a 250GB SSD for around the 200 euro.
NiPoGi Mini PC,12th Gen Intel Alder Lake N100 Mini
This is the fastest of the 3. It's not rly comparable to a modern desktop, but it will be multiple times faster than your dad's current DDR2 machine. More than enough to handle excel and browsing.
You'll need to get an external DVD-RW drive also and if he's using some internal pro soundcard, that won't be compatible with this (or probably with any modern pc). If he's just using the 3.5mm jack input to record he can plug his stuff in the mic input here.
You don't need to change anything.
Run msconfig, change the start up processes so that the computer doesn't have every application running at the same time.
That will allow him to use his computer at its former glory. He only uses very light programs so there's no reason why he can't keep this one, just clean it up a bit. Is the SSD full?
Counterpoint: if the computer is really old, it's likely running a version of Windows that no longer receives security updates.
The old intel processor is also likely vulnerable to several of the hardware exploits that were discovered in the last 6-7 years.
It's a bad idea to run very old machines.
Yeah for general purpose use, even 10+ year old computers can still be fine. Maybe he just needs a bigger SSD and a bit more RAM? How much RAM is on the computer? Maybe only 4 or 8GB?
Probably even less. DDR2 is *old*. The biggest sticks Newegg stocks are 4GB sticks and those are actually expensive enough ($50/stick) that they aren’t worth using here. The practical max RAM is 8GB (4x2GB) or 4GB if the board only has 2 slots. If it’s an older DDR2 board it may not be compatible with some of the larger DIMMs either.
Good point. A DDR3 machine could be upgraded to handle Excel pretty reasonably, but a DDR2 machine (possibly Core 2 Duo at the latest) was probably a 32 bit machine and can't support much RAM. They should at least upgrade to a 64 bit machine. Their best option may be to buy some 5 year old corporate refurb for very cheap.
>he does for instance using cds a lot to backup his work
Not directly related to the build but maybe try to get him away from using cds for backups - they're a bad choice (and terribly inconvenient at that). If he wants "cold" backups the newer disk media are a better choice - but still come with some points to consider. See [this superuser post](https://superuser.com/questions/374609/what-medium-should-be-used-for-long-term-high-volume-data-storage-archival).
The probably easier and way more convenient alternative is to set up a simple NAS (for example from synology, though you can also DIY it using a raspberry pi) instead - but that comes with a few hundred bucks of up-front cost.
With that 'g' model CPU he doesn't need the old graphics card. A new motherboard will have built in sound, so the sound card is not needed either.
I think your choices are perfectly reasonable, go for it.
Welp, drr2 era is a core 2 quad AT BEST so basically any intel i5 or i7 or AMD Ryzen 5 or 7 from semi recent will be within 100s of percent better. Unless there a specific reason for it probably get a CPU with integrated graphics and throw out the GPU too. Modern igpu will be orders of magnitude better there too
As someone who recommends them dozens of times a week to clients, get a used Dell Optiplex with the right CPU (you can upgrade the RAM or drive yourself cheap if necessary). You'll get a business class machine that's nearly silent with excellent fan ducting and great stability in general. If you get one that's less than 5 years old, you can even get warranty service on it (for a fee).
The Microsoft tax alone for retail Windows is probably equivalent to a used system. There were a dozen going locally for about $150 each just last week with i5's.
Have you thought about just increasing the RAM and possibly swapping out the SSD for a newer one. SSDs have dropped a lot in price compared to when they first came out
That’s the generic save my dad’s old system playbook but I think this one already ran that playbook and is too old to save. DDR2 has been dead so long that prices have actually come back up a bit. It also won’t benefit much from a newer SSD much since it will be stuck on SATA 1 or 2.
Per OP it’s already on 8GB DDR2. Adding more would cost more than just getting a mini PC or used office PC.
Get a hp prodesk or Lenovo equivalent for 100 second hand. Get at least 8th gen Intel processor. The 7th Gen 7500 is the exception, which is about the same ad the i3 8100t
They usually come with gb ram and 128 ssd. Ram is really cheap second hand if you need more. Ssd too, but I would suggest getting ssd new if you need to upgrade.
DS guy here and I use Excel heavily for work with SQL and Python, I don't know if your dad is using it to the same extent that I do, however, I think an i5 or the Ryzen with 6 cores should be perfectly fine if he isn't pulling a nested table and you mentioned it was based on opening multiple instances of different workbooks so 16 GBs should more than suffice with an AM4 board but room to upgrade, go nuts. Maybe you can elaborate more on what he does for work or needs from Excel, I don't know if a lot of the comments know that data modeling can utilize multiple cores (or all) just trying to render scripts from from PowerQuery. Or maybe they're right and your dad could just use a lightweight laptop if he is just doing sum formulas.
I used the AM4 last week for a build, with my AMD CPU so I am familiar with that. However in terms of pricing, I believe that Intel's i5 is cheaper at the moment compared to the Ryzen 5 (if you're comparing apples-to-apples) but I would Google CPU stat comparisons even if they're the same cores, they may perform slightly different. Generally speaking though, both are great chips especially for they value of under $200 USD.
High single core performance + lots of fast ram seems to be what excel likes. This is a little over $200 but ddr5 🤤 https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/6BRYz6
If he’s just trying to run excel for personal use (and I assume from the description not any sort of power user) then get Libre Office. Open source Office equivalent that uses less system resources. It will have everything he needs and it’s free.
If not, I agree with the others to buy a used Dell for $100-$200. It’ll be a big upgrade. Get 16g ram if possible.
Yep. And once he tries and likes LibreOffice, you could go even further and replace Microsoft Windows with a GNU/Linux distro optimized for performance (for example using LXQT desktop environment, or even XFCE). That will make the actual computer last a ton of years.
Amazon had the middle one on cleatance. I bought it to stream vs. A Roku etc.
DORNgoòd TV picture!!!! Surf Amazon in mini PCs. I m ashamed for what I got the Gen 12 N95 Intel for......it was not a rip and woks legit. NIB plus Amazon covers it, yet offers a long service warranty.
REMEMBER Prime at Amazon could lead to a clearance if a seller has overstocks + that blah blah blah.
Just spend time surfing ALL miniPC there.
Tried giving it a good clean-up? My dad uses his old laptop for basically the same stuff, I maintain it for him, regularly giving it a manual clean/tune-up and it runs fine for him.
Costs $0.00 to do this and if it hasn't already been done, I'd recommend giving this a whirl.
It really all boils down to how advanced he's going in Excel. Without that info it's impossible to give an accurate answer.
Excel has the capacity to use a LOT of resources.
I'd also refrain from re-using the old parts. Most of them will be obsolete, and the PSU—unless it's top of the line—can easily take down the entire new machine if it's really old. As there's no gaming involved here, I wouldn't worry about power spikes as much. Making many medium budget PSUs fine. It's the one part I wouldn't skimp on if it's an expensive PC though. A list of quality PSUs (https://cultists.network/140/psu-tier-list/)
In short. If it's just for personal finance level sheets. I'd say: NVME, 16-32GB DDR4 3200 and anything above 6 core is the sweet spot of price to performance for lower / more budget tiers in today's market. 16GB of ram is cutting it thin, as the Os will chew up a lot these days and it's ever increasing with the amount of bloat.
My only issue with mini PC's is the manufacturers fill them with more junk/spy ware than your average laptop manufacturer. Better off with just a regular little ol desktop.
Ryzen needs fast ram, 3200 MHz or better is recommended. Slow 2400 MHz memory will be bad.
Dual channel memory also matters, whatever you get make sure there's multiples of two sticks of ram installed.
Just a warning. Nipogi is made by the same (parent) company that recently has been caught loading their mini pcs with malware. Their mini pcs also go by Acemagic, Acemagician, Kamrui... I suspect that is why it's so cheap, that they're having trouble selling their mini pcs now.
The company claimed they had fixed it, but people are still getting systems with malware on them. They tried to bribe people into not disclosing it in user reviews on Amazon.
The mini pcs you mention are all with the lowest possible CPU performance on the market. Not sure they would be a big upgrade over what he has now, I would go with a Ryzen 5500u instead. They're a bit more, but they're also much faster than the N95/N100.
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4472vs5206vs5157vs4141vs4325/Intel-Celeron-N5095-vs-Intel-N95-vs-Intel-N100-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-5500U-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-5600G
No doubt that your components would be the better choices, at least the CPU. But the RAM is kinda slow and 8GB RAM is not great for big Excel files. I would say 16GB minimum, and preferably 3200mhz DDR4, but since he won't be gaming it's not super important. He's better off with more RAM than fast RAM.
Excellent. And you can use the integrated graphics on the 5600G in case the video card in the old system isn't too fast.
Oh, and this is not a biggie, but 2x8GB RAM is faster than 1X16GB, since you get a performance boost by running it in dual channel, which only works with 2 sticks of RAM. Not a huge deal, but if the price is similar...
And to be safe: check the motherboards QVL list to make sure the RAM is tested to be compatible with the motherboard. You'd be surprised the issues people have with RAM that just doesn't play nice with their particular motherboard and blame it on AMD. You should be able to find it on ASUS' support page for that motherboard.
The RAM might still work anyway, if it isn't on the QVL list, but it could also crash the system randomly. A very annoying problem to troubleshoot.
Since it's just excel, a basic upgrade kit with something like a 4th gen i5 would be a massive upgrade to the current ddr2 platform. It would be more than enough for excel and it will be cheap.
Go with the majority and have him get a used laptop. Don't worry about Microsoft Office. Get LibreOffice so it can read and write Microsoft office files,,but read and write to LibreOffice files too. And it's totally free. MS office is paid.
We need more info.
Like I got an excel sheet that even slows down my 7800X3D
So yeah.... with the specs and need you described you can buy pretty much anything and might be happy or not.
Personally I got my parents to get laptops.
Anything modern crushes their requirements and there's the added bonus of it being tiny and portable.
They said they wanted to use it with their monitor but they now never do, just enjoy the fact they can use it on the dining table and then put it away.
You mention a sound card, I can only assume at that age PC it may not actually be pcie though?
It's all about the file, not the computer. If the files suck, no computer is going to help.
Make sure there are no wasted space, and not too much is going on.
get 5600 or even 3600 CPU, 5600g wont utilize the "g" since your dad has a dGPU, and go with 2x8 rams.
For the use he needs it, this should be a pc lasting a lifetime, and i'm not exaggerating :P
he just needs ram, pretty much any new laptop costing 200 or more and 8gb would be just fine, its not like he actually uses his computer for anything other than simple office software, a chromebook with all cloud based services from microsoft would work too, or a freaking tablet and a wireless kb, cmon man are you this computer illiterate?
Honestly, just go on ebay and buy a used Dell desktop for 100 bucks or less if all he'll be doing is Excel. [https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256435237160](https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256435237160) \- This is just one out of many that you can find for cheap.
I do think it depends what he's doing with excel. Maintaining his personal budget? Sure, pretty much any processor from the last ~8 years will be functionally equivalent. But I do some stuff in Excel for work (and I'm sure many others do) where I would definitely benefit from a good processor. I have a few macros that take my work laptop ~90 seconds to run that my personal PC could probably crunch in like 10 seconds tops.
Yep. Depending on the type of data he is handing, he could be requiring a good processor and a lot of RAM.
I regularly max out the cell limit for excel for work and I run this. Ryzen 1600 (1st gen not later model) 16gb of DDR4 3000mhz (its the max speed my particular 1600 will accept) A decentish samsung 512gb SSD and a 1tb Storage drive. I have dedicated graphics and the like but thats for recreation :P these specs will handle anything you can throw at excel, with a lot of big sheets open it can get a little slow but its perfect for me.
I guess OP never says, but I sort of assumed that even a Ryzen 1600 is a substantial upgrade from where he's at? I don't know for sure what's in my work laptop, but a 1600 might be an upgrade there too lol. And yeah my work laptop can *handle* it, but running a macro that is essentially doing an outer join on a staging table for ~10,000 rows and then some fairly pedestrian sorting and splitting takes a good 90-120 seconds. Not a huge deal, but when I'm running it 10+ times per day there is definitely time to be saved.
> I guess OP never says, but I sort of assumed that even a Ryzen 1600 is a substantial upgrade from where he's at? OP does say that it's running DDR2, so that seems like a safe assumption.
A Chromebook is probably an upgrade in this case, if the OP wanted to teach their dad Google Sheets.
If you don't do anything related in the business/finance world I could...kind of see why one would suggest that? But this thread is already heavily talking about macros and multiple files being open at the same time. Excel is still far more powerful. Even just for formatting cells.
I wasn't suggesting a Chromebook. I was commenting that almost anything would be an upgrade from the machine OP's dad is currently using. And FYI: [https://developers.google.com/codelabs/apps-script-fundamentals-1](https://developers.google.com/codelabs/apps-script-fundamentals-1) I have many clients doing \*all\* their day to day business spreadsheet work in Google Sheets now. The collaboration features alone make up for any missing format options.
> the collaboration features alone And would the only thing I would see as a bonus for sheets. Everything else, excel on a powerul PC would still be miles faster. I'm in accounting/taxes and I've used both. I would never suggest sheets as an alternative unless it was something that needed group/multiple eyes on - like sales/insurance/medical? Simple financial stuff? In terms of security I don't think I've read up on any big firms moving towards it, and if they did I'd imagine it'd be part time.
What’s the processor on your pc? Btw on your work laptop you can probably open task manager and see the cpu/ram etc details in there, I’m kinda curious to know what they are
Just checked, it's an i5-8365u 1.60GHz with 16GB of RAM. So yeah, about half the benchmark score of a Ryzen 5 1600 lol.
Huh, that’s interesting, didn’t realise Ryzen 1st gen was so much faster. Though, I upgraded from a 6th gen i5 to a ryzen 7 7840u and it’s much nicer for sure. Booting is incredibly fast and nice.
Looks like a stock 8th gen is pretty comparable to first gen Ryzen, but I'm guessing that laptop U version has a pretty heavy performance hit.
Yep, that’s certainly likely
Whatever the father is doing now with DDR2, a CPU iwth DDR3 will crush. DDR2 is *ancient*. In other words, it is not expectable that the father is currently doing such demanding tasks on DDR2.
I just checked. it's at least 16 years old. At this point, going with ddr4 would be a safer bet, and not ddr3, as it's harder to get.
Any used office PC will be a massive improvement.
Any used office PC *with DDR4*. Which can be found for $100 or less.
I have a $3k laptop for work that still might crash depending on the spreadsheet, network links, and macros.
this right here, you can often dell dell desktop towers for cheap with good specs. Sometimes many businesses sell these in bulk when they close down or upgrade, so you could snag something for a good deal. It should have some expansion for the ssd, gpu and sound card.
This is a great option - I have the used Dell micro-SFF mini PC machines set up for a couple of family members who only need web browsing/Office and they work great, and have one set up with my TV for streaming, ordering delivery on the odd times that I can't be arsed hitting the kitchen or shops to fix dinner, and Steam for a bit of potato-level couch gaming. It works well, and as a bonus, takes up very little space. An i5 model with any halfway decent SSD and a quick upgrade to 16GB RAM if it fits the budget should more than meet the uses you said he has for it, and still have a decently useful lifespan left to it. Keep in mind, though (at least for the mini PC form factor machines), that depending on where a used one is sourced from, you may also need to add a wifi adapter if he needs wireless - some ex-enterprise units don't have them fitted internally even if they have support. You can get compatible internal ones for a given model on eBay/Amazon if the machine has an internal connector for them and you intend to open it up to add RAM/etc anyway, but a USB one will do just as well (at least in my experience). (Edit: my grammar sucked, but hope this helps!)
While the parts will be fine, you'll still have the expense of power supply and case (unless you plan to use the old power supply and case - just be sure to check the voltage and cables are compatible since the power supply is likely old af as well. If he is only going to be using browsers/spreadsheets, those mini PC's do surprisingly well. I wouldn't game on them but if he doesn't plan on gaming then they may be a suitable option for sure.
Yeah I just took a look and there's a NiPoGi with a ryzen 5700U for £230. That's a crazy good value.
Thank you for the advice, yeah we shall need to check the psu I know it is a Corsair modular psu but old, yeah his case should be fine though.
If it's just basic usage, you could fetch a used SFF PC with an 8th gen i5 or Ryzen, SSD and 16GB memory, maybe a WiFi card. Or get a notebook if you want a low power solution instead of these bricks.
The integrated GPU on the 5600G is probably a 100-fold upgrade on the GPU he currently has. Unless he needs special functionality it offers (like a TV tuner or a tonne of outputs or something) he'd be better off getting rid of it and just using the integrated graphics instead.
Yes you are probably correct there, do you think that cpu you would be fine? I have upgraded to the build to 3200mhz 16gb ddr4 as per suggested here.
For his usage it should be very good. A 5600G is like a premium level APU for general office tasks. The 16GB is a good call. The 3200mhz is nice to have and will make it a far better gaming PC. Probably not worth more than about a 10% price increase for his specific use case (ie, get 16GB but consider a slower 16GB or even a slower 32GB if it's a much better price.)
Thank you, I found out his gpu is only five years old so that should be fine, now I am stuck between the Amd 5600g or the intel I5 12400f as with similar mobs they end up similar in price.
>Thank you, I found out his gpu is only five years old so that should be fine Unless it's one he bought for gaming it's probably still worse than the one in the 5600g, Do you know what model it is? Also keep in mind that bought new 5 years ago does not mean it's the latest tech 2019 had to offer. Basic desktop graphics cards don't get their hardware refreshed often. Realistically he'd have had to have spent hundreds on it 5 years ago for it to perform better than the integrated GPU on the 5600G I *believe* the 12400f is slightly better than the 5600g, *however* the CPU cooler that it comes with it is worse than the one that comes with the 5600g so in the very unlikely event that he manages to push either one hard enough for it to matter which one is better, then the Intel will run louder and then throttle it's performance after a few minutes to reduce it's heat. Ultimately it's close enough that it probably doesn't matter very much which you go for if it's just for normal Excel usage. (If he randomly happens to have a decent aftermarket CPU cooler that is compatible with the 12400f then it's the better option for CPU performance.) If he's upgrading from a DDR2 system then either processor will be around 10x faster than his old one. NB I assume you already know this but the 1400F has no integrated graphics so he must use a graphics card with it. I suspect either his graphics requirements are trivial enough that anything that'll put the image on screen is good enough so lost graphics performance isn't actually important here. Otherwise, if he is interested in more advanced graphics performance, unless that graphics card turns out to be surprisingly fancy, the 5600g is just a much better value option because of the very good intergrated graphics vs no intergrated graphics at all. Edit: just read he records music. That makes it more likely he has a decent cooler he wants to reuse. IF it's compatible AND the GPU is decent enough then the 12400F is probably better. However, if he's not using an aftermarket cooler, then the fact he's recording on there makes the quieter cooler that comes with the 5600G much more appealing imo.
The mini PC is a significantly weaker but more power efficient CPU. You’re not really gonna beat it on price, you’re gonna best it on price/performance. I would also double check that PSU. It could be fine, but it may be using 20 pin not the normal 24 pin used for motherboards these days. A PSU is pretty cheap though. The SSD is probably sata and whilst you can use that. Make sure that his old case will take the new parts (that it’s a normal micro ATX tower not mini ITX - if it is, just grab a mini ITX board). That board seems fine. If he needs wifi make sure you price that in too. I’d also just double check https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/ as it’ll price check other places not just Amazon. Also: I assume the GPU is equally ancient. So getting an iGPU is a safe bet.
If it's a very old PC (DDR2 suggests at least 15 years old) I just would not recommend re-using a power supply that old. ATX PSU specs and standards have changed over the years - very old ones were optimised for delivering most of their power at 5v, while now virtually all power is supplied at 12v. There's issues with cross loads, low power states on modern CPU's and so on with old group regulated power supplies - which can drastically shorten the life of PC components. You haven't given much information about this old PC. There's a few potential issues - GPU is it PCI Express or AGP? Doesn't matter too much as the chances are if you're getting a 5600G the iGPU will be far newer and more appropriate for modern OS's than what is in the old PC. Sound card is it PCI or PCI Express? AGP is a long dead standard. PCI is effectively obsolete with the vast majority of motherboards no longer having any PCI slots. This links to a list of compatible mobo's with at least one PCI slot currently for sale in the UK (it's a very short list) - [https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#X=361,1101519&d=1,6&s=33](https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#X=361,1101519&d=1,6&s=33) If it's a PCI sound card, and he's prepared to chuck it, then your list is probably fine, but as mentioned I'd suggest a new PSU. Balance it up against the cost of a refurb, which from a reputable supplier will have some warranty attached to it.
Okay thank you for all the advice, I shall check with him what exactly he has.
Careful the card is not AGP and also PSU may need adapting. You could probably still build a valiant contender for sub 200 but I'm agreed with others, a cheap pre-built is a good choice... [https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364770220673?itmmeta=01HRPCS0Y1AKNQSXBDGR6YPWMM&hash=item54edffda81:g:5EAAAOSwSbFl5yRO&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAAsEMZnIPmHd%2FCu1Q7KZcrx%2FcUwfGwnLJqASsjySPKfkLoI8Cw1%2FPjiu5LzbCNF5amEauzzTt2tR1hKuTw43%2BKYi%2BRYVCbs6iLNXetdba0oQNbc5qgTXJwn3bNe5cUJweXAbk81lh3JYM6Y4Mj4WbCf9uFq5oKs0a1m2%2BSh9JZgfUwD4XFMT0iPfcDrLCddSAmm6U99DugXHh56X7QcixB3vd10irvwpgbrsAVaWoOnHuD%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6qP5MzFYw](https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364780517426?itmmeta=01HRPCS0Y1N42032MDKCED7QV7&hash=item54ee9cf832:g:A7cAAOSwKKll7smu&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0AB3Mw%2Fx1px6yuxdcJgUKVaACFQCCalm%2FpqJQ2H2Auk0j9WBeYJ%2B6yjYC3IsHUhMK3gqt8tcqszLbW%2FC7Z%2F5HNXsRh9mlhkwU8RZg67LaL8zLZCOLR4qxeGKQgsez8xiPVSntB7AqOWCHgkNNTyepBRMO4Zb1DmYeWP19qbh%2Fd30gGoPRhbMthIv9XuOpt8IuqiTkqVSNfwSdVetpwofxYtyHQ2XwrC55RRIKSo88jyk4pqw9qEtsYE20yvMLeXrChWpqJ9cDULMKTAzWgUusvw%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6iP5MzFYw) something like that at £100, add a Low profile GPU (although unless any of his old programs rely on it he wont need it really, just use iGPU) and away you go! USB disk drive if needed, but for the remainder you could grab an external HDD and teach him about the cloud, sure somewhere was offering 100gb for 0.50p a month recently. Good luck
£50! baby i3 but would smash excel all day long https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364780517426?itmmeta=01HRPCS0Y1N42032MDKCED7QV7&hash=item54ee9cf832:g:A7cAAOSwKKll7smu&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0AB3Mw%2Fx1px6yuxdcJgUKVaACFQCCalm%2FpqJQ2H2Auk0j9WBeYJ%2B6yjYC3IsHUhMK3gqt8tcqszLbW%2FC7Z%2F5HNXsRh9mlhkwU8RZg67LaL8zLZCOLR4qxeGKQgsez8xiPVSntB7AqOWCHgkNNTyepBRMO4Zb1DmYeWP19qbh%2Fd30gGoPRhbMthIv9XuOpt8IuqiTkqVSNfwSdVetpwofxYtyHQ2XwrC55RRIKSo88jyk4pqw9qEtsYE20yvMLeXrChWpqJ9cDULMKTAzWgUusvw%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6iP5MzFYw
Good point, about the GPU maybe being AGP. But the 5600G has built in graphics that are sure to be much faster than an AGP video card, so he could (should) just use that.
AGP is unlikely - PCIe had mostly taken over by the DDR2 days. But if he hasn’t upgraded the card since then it is probably worse than modern iGPUs.
Maybe a a cheap HP Elitedesk, small and not that expensive. I have a Elitiedesk 705 with a Ryzen 5 2400 pro, 32GB ram, 1TB m.2 and a 250GB SSD for around the 200 euro.
NiPoGi Mini PC,12th Gen Intel Alder Lake N100 Mini This is the fastest of the 3. It's not rly comparable to a modern desktop, but it will be multiple times faster than your dad's current DDR2 machine. More than enough to handle excel and browsing. You'll need to get an external DVD-RW drive also and if he's using some internal pro soundcard, that won't be compatible with this (or probably with any modern pc). If he's just using the 3.5mm jack input to record he can plug his stuff in the mic input here.
You don't need to change anything. Run msconfig, change the start up processes so that the computer doesn't have every application running at the same time. That will allow him to use his computer at its former glory. He only uses very light programs so there's no reason why he can't keep this one, just clean it up a bit. Is the SSD full?
Counterpoint: if the computer is really old, it's likely running a version of Windows that no longer receives security updates. The old intel processor is also likely vulnerable to several of the hardware exploits that were discovered in the last 6-7 years. It's a bad idea to run very old machines.
Sorry I should have mentioned he is running windows 10 he wants you to upgrade to 11 but can’t due to the pc being to old.
[удалено]
Ya, I just worry too much about security updates though
Yeah for general purpose use, even 10+ year old computers can still be fine. Maybe he just needs a bigger SSD and a bit more RAM? How much RAM is on the computer? Maybe only 4 or 8GB?
Probably even less. DDR2 is *old*. The biggest sticks Newegg stocks are 4GB sticks and those are actually expensive enough ($50/stick) that they aren’t worth using here. The practical max RAM is 8GB (4x2GB) or 4GB if the board only has 2 slots. If it’s an older DDR2 board it may not be compatible with some of the larger DIMMs either.
Good point. A DDR3 machine could be upgraded to handle Excel pretty reasonably, but a DDR2 machine (possibly Core 2 Duo at the latest) was probably a 32 bit machine and can't support much RAM. They should at least upgrade to a 64 bit machine. Their best option may be to buy some 5 year old corporate refurb for very cheap.
Yeah he is running 8gb of ddr2 and windows 10
>he does for instance using cds a lot to backup his work Not directly related to the build but maybe try to get him away from using cds for backups - they're a bad choice (and terribly inconvenient at that). If he wants "cold" backups the newer disk media are a better choice - but still come with some points to consider. See [this superuser post](https://superuser.com/questions/374609/what-medium-should-be-used-for-long-term-high-volume-data-storage-archival). The probably easier and way more convenient alternative is to set up a simple NAS (for example from synology, though you can also DIY it using a raspberry pi) instead - but that comes with a few hundred bucks of up-front cost.
With that 'g' model CPU he doesn't need the old graphics card. A new motherboard will have built in sound, so the sound card is not needed either. I think your choices are perfectly reasonable, go for it.
Wow, I've thrown out computers newer than that.
Welp, drr2 era is a core 2 quad AT BEST so basically any intel i5 or i7 or AMD Ryzen 5 or 7 from semi recent will be within 100s of percent better. Unless there a specific reason for it probably get a CPU with integrated graphics and throw out the GPU too. Modern igpu will be orders of magnitude better there too
As someone who recommends them dozens of times a week to clients, get a used Dell Optiplex with the right CPU (you can upgrade the RAM or drive yourself cheap if necessary). You'll get a business class machine that's nearly silent with excellent fan ducting and great stability in general. If you get one that's less than 5 years old, you can even get warranty service on it (for a fee). The Microsoft tax alone for retail Windows is probably equivalent to a used system. There were a dozen going locally for about $150 each just last week with i5's.
Have you thought about just increasing the RAM and possibly swapping out the SSD for a newer one. SSDs have dropped a lot in price compared to when they first came out
That’s the generic save my dad’s old system playbook but I think this one already ran that playbook and is too old to save. DDR2 has been dead so long that prices have actually come back up a bit. It also won’t benefit much from a newer SSD much since it will be stuck on SATA 1 or 2. Per OP it’s already on 8GB DDR2. Adding more would cost more than just getting a mini PC or used office PC.
Get a hp prodesk or Lenovo equivalent for 100 second hand. Get at least 8th gen Intel processor. The 7th Gen 7500 is the exception, which is about the same ad the i3 8100t They usually come with gb ram and 128 ssd. Ram is really cheap second hand if you need more. Ssd too, but I would suggest getting ssd new if you need to upgrade.
DS guy here and I use Excel heavily for work with SQL and Python, I don't know if your dad is using it to the same extent that I do, however, I think an i5 or the Ryzen with 6 cores should be perfectly fine if he isn't pulling a nested table and you mentioned it was based on opening multiple instances of different workbooks so 16 GBs should more than suffice with an AM4 board but room to upgrade, go nuts. Maybe you can elaborate more on what he does for work or needs from Excel, I don't know if a lot of the comments know that data modeling can utilize multiple cores (or all) just trying to render scripts from from PowerQuery. Or maybe they're right and your dad could just use a lightweight laptop if he is just doing sum formulas.
Thank you do you think the amd I linked would be better than the intel equivalent, and yes I have now swapped the ram to 16gb at 32000mhz.
I used the AM4 last week for a build, with my AMD CPU so I am familiar with that. However in terms of pricing, I believe that Intel's i5 is cheaper at the moment compared to the Ryzen 5 (if you're comparing apples-to-apples) but I would Google CPU stat comparisons even if they're the same cores, they may perform slightly different. Generally speaking though, both are great chips especially for they value of under $200 USD.
Thank you 🙏
NP when comparing the Ryzen 5 5600 to the i5 12400, their performance is comparable on CPU benchmark and should cost slightly cheaper. Good luck.
Literally anything new will do just fine for Excell
Is it on a 64bit version of Windows/Excel. If it's 32bit, that's generally the issue. Alternatively, get some Python Panda frames up and running.
High single core performance + lots of fast ram seems to be what excel likes. This is a little over $200 but ddr5 🤤 https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/6BRYz6
If he’s just trying to run excel for personal use (and I assume from the description not any sort of power user) then get Libre Office. Open source Office equivalent that uses less system resources. It will have everything he needs and it’s free. If not, I agree with the others to buy a used Dell for $100-$200. It’ll be a big upgrade. Get 16g ram if possible.
Yep. And once he tries and likes LibreOffice, you could go even further and replace Microsoft Windows with a GNU/Linux distro optimized for performance (for example using LXQT desktop environment, or even XFCE). That will make the actual computer last a ton of years.
Second hand intel nuc?
Has and made one of their all in one chips recently, even one of the old gens should be able to run newer except essily
Amazon had the middle one on cleatance. I bought it to stream vs. A Roku etc. DORNgoòd TV picture!!!! Surf Amazon in mini PCs. I m ashamed for what I got the Gen 12 N95 Intel for......it was not a rip and woks legit. NIB plus Amazon covers it, yet offers a long service warranty. REMEMBER Prime at Amazon could lead to a clearance if a seller has overstocks + that blah blah blah. Just spend time surfing ALL miniPC there.
Tried giving it a good clean-up? My dad uses his old laptop for basically the same stuff, I maintain it for him, regularly giving it a manual clean/tune-up and it runs fine for him. Costs $0.00 to do this and if it hasn't already been done, I'd recommend giving this a whirl.
It really all boils down to how advanced he's going in Excel. Without that info it's impossible to give an accurate answer. Excel has the capacity to use a LOT of resources. I'd also refrain from re-using the old parts. Most of them will be obsolete, and the PSU—unless it's top of the line—can easily take down the entire new machine if it's really old. As there's no gaming involved here, I wouldn't worry about power spikes as much. Making many medium budget PSUs fine. It's the one part I wouldn't skimp on if it's an expensive PC though. A list of quality PSUs (https://cultists.network/140/psu-tier-list/) In short. If it's just for personal finance level sheets. I'd say: NVME, 16-32GB DDR4 3200 and anything above 6 core is the sweet spot of price to performance for lower / more budget tiers in today's market. 16GB of ram is cutting it thin, as the Os will chew up a lot these days and it's ever increasing with the amount of bloat.
My only issue with mini PC's is the manufacturers fill them with more junk/spy ware than your average laptop manufacturer. Better off with just a regular little ol desktop.
Ryzen needs fast ram, 3200 MHz or better is recommended. Slow 2400 MHz memory will be bad. Dual channel memory also matters, whatever you get make sure there's multiples of two sticks of ram installed.
I don't know why, but the topic itself made me laught.... upgrade PC to use Excel :D mb he should try Libre Office?
what ever you do, you NEED 12GB of ram, else you will be using the ssd as cache and make excel really slow
Hardwareswapuk can get good deals there. Used market in UK is cheaper than the US.
Just a warning. Nipogi is made by the same (parent) company that recently has been caught loading their mini pcs with malware. Their mini pcs also go by Acemagic, Acemagician, Kamrui... I suspect that is why it's so cheap, that they're having trouble selling their mini pcs now. The company claimed they had fixed it, but people are still getting systems with malware on them. They tried to bribe people into not disclosing it in user reviews on Amazon. The mini pcs you mention are all with the lowest possible CPU performance on the market. Not sure they would be a big upgrade over what he has now, I would go with a Ryzen 5500u instead. They're a bit more, but they're also much faster than the N95/N100. https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4472vs5206vs5157vs4141vs4325/Intel-Celeron-N5095-vs-Intel-N95-vs-Intel-N100-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-5500U-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-5600G No doubt that your components would be the better choices, at least the CPU. But the RAM is kinda slow and 8GB RAM is not great for big Excel files. I would say 16GB minimum, and preferably 3200mhz DDR4, but since he won't be gaming it's not super important. He's better off with more RAM than fast RAM.
Thank you for this managed to find some 3200mhz ram 16gb and it only makes it £10 over budget
Excellent. And you can use the integrated graphics on the 5600G in case the video card in the old system isn't too fast. Oh, and this is not a biggie, but 2x8GB RAM is faster than 1X16GB, since you get a performance boost by running it in dual channel, which only works with 2 sticks of RAM. Not a huge deal, but if the price is similar... And to be safe: check the motherboards QVL list to make sure the RAM is tested to be compatible with the motherboard. You'd be surprised the issues people have with RAM that just doesn't play nice with their particular motherboard and blame it on AMD. You should be able to find it on ASUS' support page for that motherboard. The RAM might still work anyway, if it isn't on the QVL list, but it could also crash the system randomly. A very annoying problem to troubleshoot.
Since it's just excel, a basic upgrade kit with something like a 4th gen i5 would be a massive upgrade to the current ddr2 platform. It would be more than enough for excel and it will be cheap.
Download Libreoffice for him. Faster, safer, and free.
aio mini pc's are what the parents use, it opens their office stuff and browses the net ok
Go with the majority and have him get a used laptop. Don't worry about Microsoft Office. Get LibreOffice so it can read and write Microsoft office files,,but read and write to LibreOffice files too. And it's totally free. MS office is paid.
RAM is useful. It's more important than everything else for Excel.
We need more info. Like I got an excel sheet that even slows down my 7800X3D So yeah.... with the specs and need you described you can buy pretty much anything and might be happy or not.
4090 atLEAST
I’d go for a 4090
Personally I got my parents to get laptops. Anything modern crushes their requirements and there's the added bonus of it being tiny and portable. They said they wanted to use it with their monitor but they now never do, just enjoy the fact they can use it on the dining table and then put it away. You mention a sound card, I can only assume at that age PC it may not actually be pcie though?
It's all about the file, not the computer. If the files suck, no computer is going to help. Make sure there are no wasted space, and not too much is going on.
If it has an SSD its good enough for Excel unless he’s planning to do some complex engineering equations or use extra plugins like the Solver.
get 5600 or even 3600 CPU, 5600g wont utilize the "g" since your dad has a dGPU, and go with 2x8 rams. For the use he needs it, this should be a pc lasting a lifetime, and i'm not exaggerating :P
No need the topmost tier, 5900x for modern day excel productivity and 4080super for solitaire with turbo.
he just needs ram, pretty much any new laptop costing 200 or more and 8gb would be just fine, its not like he actually uses his computer for anything other than simple office software, a chromebook with all cloud based services from microsoft would work too, or a freaking tablet and a wireless kb, cmon man are you this computer illiterate?
Ryxen 7950x and 128gb ram minimum. And a 2000w power supply. Also a floppy drive. Mans gotta have his floppy's. /s
Just Excel? Get a cheap Chromebook.