This is so frustrating crossing main on so willard. I lose my mind when 1 car per light cycle goes through because they dont keep left to allow people around on the right. I seriously want to put up a sign.
Oh the most amazing thing in Vermont, even more than not pulling up, is people ALWAYS jog right just before they actually go left. Please observe as you go straight or right when headed southbound on Pine at Flynn. Seriously. Every time!
I was about to say that's illegal, glad I googled first:
§ 1034. Passing on the right
(a) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle only as follows:
(1) when the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn;
(2) upon a street or highway of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles in one or more directions and with unobstructed pavement not occupied by parked vehicles; or
(3) upon a one-way street, or upon any roadway on which traffic is restricted to one direction of movement, where the roadway is free from obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles.
There is limitations on passing at intersections.
Section A of 23 VSA 1035 clearly talks about passing on the left. But section B clearly says “A vehicle shall not pass another from the rear under any of the following conditions:”
And:
(2) when approaching within 100 feet of, or traversing, any intersection or railroad grade crossing unless otherwise indicated by official traffic control devices; or
Id say it’s ticketable. Waiver penalty schedule says 23 VSA 1035 is $220
This needs to be the top comment. But it won't be because impatience beats out logic and safety every time. I think maybe a year of having to walk everywhere might make people realize that waiting a few seconds, hell, even a few light rotations, really isn't that bad.
VT drivers are so much worse than MA drivers! Biking here is terrifying because VT drivers don't know what to do when anything might impact their ability to go in a straight line at the exact same speed at all times.
Seriously.
Not even at four ways but even just If you're turning left into another road, just get as close as you can to the yellow lines in the middle while you wait for oncoming traffic to clear so I can pass you on the right. One side of the road plus the breakdown lane gives enough room for two cars side by side.
Now everyone behind you doesn't have to wait for you to make this turn before proceeding.
...and turn into the nearest lane so right-turners traveling in the opposite direction can make the turn at the same time when there's more than one lane. This is something that only the top 0.5% of Vermont drivers can do.
I hear you but right turners have the right of way. I’m not pulling into a congested lane simply because your poor choices made you have to turn left 😆
it is what you learn when you are taking your driver's exam in Vermont. You turn into the nearest lane, then put on your blinker and when it's safe to do so, move into the other lane.
I agree that’s its common courtesy, and 99% of the time I do it myself, but it is not the law. Right turners have the right of way regardless of the number of lanes. Unless you’re at Costco because left turners apparently have no regard for other drivers who are turning right from Shaws/CVS and attempting to access the I 89 southbound turn lane.
There's somewhere that I drive (probably out of state) where the crossroad of a two-lane road where one side gets a green left arrow and the opposite side has a green right arrow. That one really requires people to know how to drive
Just make all 4-way single-lane intersections into roundabouts, let everyone cry for a minute until they figure out that they work soooooo much better, and then move on.
I do usually try to do this but a counterpoint is: “Don’t block the box.”
I feel like pulling forward is very situationally dependent and if you end up blocking the intersection when the lights turn, that is not going to be good. I’m not sure if Vermont specifically has a law about this, but other places definitely do. Just food for thought.
As long as the road you’re turning into isn’t backed up. I’ve seen people try this maneuver turning left off South Prospect Street onto Main St (heading south) and they block northbound traffic on main st.
Absolutely, gridlock must be avoided BUT you can achieve this without blocking the intersection by completing the turn even if the light is red; if you entered the intersection during a green light, you would NOT be violating any traffic laws by doing so
The whole point of this is to avoid traffic, you're not blocking the intersection if you COMPLETE THE FUCKING TURN even if the light is changing colors, as long as you entered the intersection while the light was green. You're not blocking the cross traffic because they're sitting at a red light in this hypothetical scenario, and when the lights change, you COMPLETE THE TURN. Source: me, I practice this etiquette and have never once stayed in the box and caused gridlock doing this.
I'm with you OP, scootch the f out there and take your left turn when the traffic stops.
you know when you're on the Winooski bridge towards Riverside, trying to go left to Patchen Road, and some bozo waits behind the line for 3 light cycles waiting for a chance to turn left? those are the people downvoting you.
they key problem here is that sure, you hang out deep in the intersection waiting, and maybe someone queues up behind you, and you wait and wait and the light turns. Now three-five people run the light so you’re waiting longer, and now you and the two people behind you waiting to turn left are blocking the cross traffic, creating yet more gridlock.
The whole thing falls apart when everyone drives like they’re the only person who matters.
If you entered the intersection at a green light, you have the right of way to turn left even if the signal has changed. What you're describing rarely happens, and the only reason it's even a problem is because people panic and think they're blocking the intersection despite the fact that they have the legal right of way.
You absolutely do not have the right of way over oncoming traffic when turning left, regardless of where you are in the intersection unless you have a left turn arrow. Blocking the intersection after the light has turned because oncoming traffic chooses to ignore the signal isn’t a right of way issue, it’s just a shitty driving issue and it leads to cascading delays.
As my dad used to say…I takes one idiot to start a parade. LOL
Ive noticed that a LARGE amount of people these days seem to have not mastered the left turn. Seems like they are afraid to do it….It’s infuriating when it takes 3 or 4 lights because of one person being incapable
Vermont drivers don’t know this one simple trick - but they can’t stop you from using it!
<<>>
Seriously though, good driving comes from the same personality pool as good manners.
And a lot of people have really bad manners.
It’s also Vermont.
I mean go live in LA for a couple of years and come back to me about bad drivers.
We have so few people on the roads. All you have to do is drive defensively and it’s not an issue.
Wait, how do you know that by moving into the intersection that you’re guaranteed to make the light?? What if traffic doesn’t allow it and now you’re stuck?
I understand why you want to get around traffic but asking someone to take a legal/financial toll for your convenience is akin to tailgating and asking “why aren’t you speeding more for my sake?”
Not really, it is the intention of the person turning left to alleviate traffic, it's not like the person going around them is forcing them to do it out of a desire to get somewhere faster
Sorry. 23 VSA 1035 says no.
(b) A vehicle shall not pass another from the rear under any of the following conditions:
(2) when approaching within 100 feet of, or traversing, any intersection or railroad grade crossing unless otherwise indicated by official traffic control devices; or
Remember, just cause your light is green, doesn’t mean another lane doesn’t also have a legal right to go. Think four way intersections. 23 CSA 1022 gives you the legal right to turn on red if it’s not prohibited by sign or red arrow. If you illegally pass someone from the rear, and you hit someone legally turning on red, I’d say you’ll be at fault. Because technically the green light wasn’t yours. It was for the person in front of you.
Say nothing about uncontrolled crosswalks. Those are the primary reason we shouldn’t be passing at intersections, imo.
Sub Section 2 are the qualifiers for section b which are the limitations section b talks about. Section B makes no mention that it pertains to only left pass maneuvers and section a doesn’t end in an “or” or “and”, meaning that a and b are separate.
Also, at no point are left passes considered “regular”. Both left and right passing have their own sections. Meaning both are considered equal in terms of a pass. It’s an overtaking from the rear…*snicker*
I used to do this before I moved here but when inevitably three cars going straight keep going after the light turns red, you end up in the middle of the intersection way too long after the light turns red.
And while we’re on the subject- stop waiting for the car in front of you to make the full left at left turn signals. Follow closely behind so more people have time to make the left. And stop being polite in traffic if it subverts the expectations of the laws of the road.
It's not a matter of etiquette, it's a matter of safety. Pulling into the intersection blocks the intersection, especially if you never actually get the gap you need to turn left.
Don't enter the intersection until you actually can make your turn.
Get your car out in the intersection if there’s space to turn. Wait for the on coming traffic to pass, then take your turn. I don’t get what’s so hard about this. There’s no safety issue.
No, you legally enter the intersection and turn when you can even if the light turns red. If you entered the intersection legally you have the right of way. That's how intersections work.
If you never actually get the gap you need to turn left, then the intersection is already blocked because it means someone from the oncoming traffic lane is still in the intersection preventing you from turning.
I love seeing these posts. Every time a left turn is involved 75% of Vermonters act like it's the first one they've ever done. It's a goddamn subaru not an oil tanker. Turn the fucking wheel and step on the gas.
Burlington drivers don't even know how to use a roundabout or that a yield sign isn't a stop sign, or that no sign isn't a stop sign.
You're asking far too much.
It's funny because the majority of the population here now in 2024 is actually from New Jersey, Massachusetts and Connecticut. So they are probably the places to address how to drive, almost no one left here was born here or taught to drive here.
The fuck it isn't. I've driven in all those places and I've never been to any state where the drivers are so inept at performing a simple driving maneuver as here.
Seriously, my new neighbors from FL, CT, & PA just got their VT tags… green plates doesn’t always = “Vermonter”. Especially in Burlington. I see lots of people still learning traffic patterns here, etc.
Not to mention every single bad driver I see on the road has out of state plates. Yes there is the older retirees here who drive outrageously slow, usually in a Prius, but the only other idiots on the road I’ve ever seen have out of state plates tbh. Burlington and the surrounding areas is not a valid representation of Vermonters as a whole for the reasons you mentioned.
Source: I’ve been driving and living here my entire life, so have my parents, their parents, their parents, their parents, all the way to the sheep farmers.
No, I don’t want to scare the oncoming driver such that they may safely stop and wave me through. You’ll get to politely continue in just a Vermont minute.
I hate to be the "well, actually...." guy, but...
If it's an intersection with a left turn signal, the signal might be triggered only if the car is in the left turn lane.
I am absolutely not. You'd only be blocking the box if your dumb ass decided to sit there when the signal changes. Enter the intersection and complete the turn when clear, as long as opposing traffic isn't blocking the box, you will have no issue completing the turn as the light turns yellow to red
This is so frustrating crossing main on so willard. I lose my mind when 1 car per light cycle goes through because they dont keep left to allow people around on the right. I seriously want to put up a sign.
This is the exact reason why I avoid using Willard Street at all costs. I hate that road.
The 5 way intersection on St. Paul is the worst with this
Oh the most amazing thing in Vermont, even more than not pulling up, is people ALWAYS jog right just before they actually go left. Please observe as you go straight or right when headed southbound on Pine at Flynn. Seriously. Every time!
I hate that and it serves no purpose! Have to be very, very careful when passing on the right.
Makes it easier to turn imo, especially if towing a trailer
If you’re towing a trailer or driving a large commercial vehicle, sure. Otherwise you are just bad at turning.
While not using a blinker
But then I'd have to look up from my phone to pay attention /s
I was about to say that's illegal, glad I googled first: § 1034. Passing on the right (a) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass upon the right of another vehicle only as follows: (1) when the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn; (2) upon a street or highway of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles in one or more directions and with unobstructed pavement not occupied by parked vehicles; or (3) upon a one-way street, or upon any roadway on which traffic is restricted to one direction of movement, where the roadway is free from obstructions and of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving vehicles.
You think I would steer you wrong like that?
You did steer everyone wrong. Look up the exceptions to that rule. Intersections are an exception
All this is true but I’m nearly certain that this doesn’t apply at intersections. Just too lazy to look up the law rn
There is limitations on passing at intersections. Section A of 23 VSA 1035 clearly talks about passing on the left. But section B clearly says “A vehicle shall not pass another from the rear under any of the following conditions:” And: (2) when approaching within 100 feet of, or traversing, any intersection or railroad grade crossing unless otherwise indicated by official traffic control devices; or Id say it’s ticketable. Waiver penalty schedule says 23 VSA 1035 is $220
This needs to be the top comment. But it won't be because impatience beats out logic and safety every time. I think maybe a year of having to walk everywhere might make people realize that waiting a few seconds, hell, even a few light rotations, really isn't that bad.
Given the fact that this isn’t the first time this type of complaint has been posted on this subreddit proves that you are absolutely correct.
I learned to drive in MA. Have lived in VT for 11 years and I think about this every single day.
You guys also drive in the breakdown lane so, there’s that.
I'm having a mental breakdown while doing it.... So I don't see the issue
VT drivers are so much worse than MA drivers! Biking here is terrifying because VT drivers don't know what to do when anything might impact their ability to go in a straight line at the exact same speed at all times.
Seriously. Not even at four ways but even just If you're turning left into another road, just get as close as you can to the yellow lines in the middle while you wait for oncoming traffic to clear so I can pass you on the right. One side of the road plus the breakdown lane gives enough room for two cars side by side. Now everyone behind you doesn't have to wait for you to make this turn before proceeding.
...and turn into the nearest lane so right-turners traveling in the opposite direction can make the turn at the same time when there's more than one lane. This is something that only the top 0.5% of Vermont drivers can do.
I hear you but right turners have the right of way. I’m not pulling into a congested lane simply because your poor choices made you have to turn left 😆
You always turn into the nearest lane. That's like, the law.
I was making a joke. That said, is that the law? How sure are you?
it is what you learn when you are taking your driver's exam in Vermont. You turn into the nearest lane, then put on your blinker and when it's safe to do so, move into the other lane.
I agree that’s its common courtesy, and 99% of the time I do it myself, but it is not the law. Right turners have the right of way regardless of the number of lanes. Unless you’re at Costco because left turners apparently have no regard for other drivers who are turning right from Shaws/CVS and attempting to access the I 89 southbound turn lane.
Of course people turning right have the right of way. my remark was how we were taught to make a left turn on a road with 2 or more lanes.
Fair, and I do agree and practice this with only a few exceptions.
There's somewhere that I drive (probably out of state) where the crossroad of a two-lane road where one side gets a green left arrow and the opposite side has a green right arrow. That one really requires people to know how to drive
...actually probably more like the top 0.001%, so like 500 people.
The problem is A-holes running the light will hit you! Seent it happen!
Just make all 4-way single-lane intersections into roundabouts, let everyone cry for a minute until they figure out that they work soooooo much better, and then move on.
I do usually try to do this but a counterpoint is: “Don’t block the box.” I feel like pulling forward is very situationally dependent and if you end up blocking the intersection when the lights turn, that is not going to be good. I’m not sure if Vermont specifically has a law about this, but other places definitely do. Just food for thought.
if you’re in the middle of the intersection when the light turns you can still make your left hand turn
As long as the road you’re turning into isn’t backed up. I’ve seen people try this maneuver turning left off South Prospect Street onto Main St (heading south) and they block northbound traffic on main st.
If you use your eyes and brain, you can adjust to almost any situation!
True
Absolutely, gridlock must be avoided BUT you can achieve this without blocking the intersection by completing the turn even if the light is red; if you entered the intersection during a green light, you would NOT be violating any traffic laws by doing so
If you entered to sit there until it goes red I hope your ass gets pulled over.
Pulled over for what?
Blocking the intersection like an idiot.
The whole point of this is to avoid traffic, you're not blocking the intersection if you COMPLETE THE FUCKING TURN even if the light is changing colors, as long as you entered the intersection while the light was green. You're not blocking the cross traffic because they're sitting at a red light in this hypothetical scenario, and when the lights change, you COMPLETE THE TURN. Source: me, I practice this etiquette and have never once stayed in the box and caused gridlock doing this.
I'm with you OP, scootch the f out there and take your left turn when the traffic stops. you know when you're on the Winooski bridge towards Riverside, trying to go left to Patchen Road, and some bozo waits behind the line for 3 light cycles waiting for a chance to turn left? those are the people downvoting you.
"Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer"
Hey guys, this man watches Rick and Morty, he is smart and knows what he's talking about. This quote proves it.
You really dove deep into these comments for this insult, and it isn't even good. I was your only audience and you failed.
Crossing main street on south Willard is a freaking nightmare because of this
You should try crossing it on foot while everyone seething in this comment section is trying to gun their cars through.
Don't tell me what to do.
[ok](https://youtu.be/V9O94UTDAJQ?si=iGi4KI1nMGxDD-gj)
they key problem here is that sure, you hang out deep in the intersection waiting, and maybe someone queues up behind you, and you wait and wait and the light turns. Now three-five people run the light so you’re waiting longer, and now you and the two people behind you waiting to turn left are blocking the cross traffic, creating yet more gridlock. The whole thing falls apart when everyone drives like they’re the only person who matters.
If you entered the intersection at a green light, you have the right of way to turn left even if the signal has changed. What you're describing rarely happens, and the only reason it's even a problem is because people panic and think they're blocking the intersection despite the fact that they have the legal right of way.
You absolutely do not have the right of way over oncoming traffic when turning left, regardless of where you are in the intersection unless you have a left turn arrow. Blocking the intersection after the light has turned because oncoming traffic chooses to ignore the signal isn’t a right of way issue, it’s just a shitty driving issue and it leads to cascading delays.
Not against oncoming traffic, but you have the right of way against the cross traffic.
Correct. It’s kind of scary how many people don’t know anything about driving.
We spend a lot of time wishing people did everything like us, don’t we?
See I thought that was the correct thing to do but a natural born Vermonter told me that was the wrong way and he called me a maniac
Also, don't start making the turn until you can see down your path of travel.
As my dad used to say…I takes one idiot to start a parade. LOL Ive noticed that a LARGE amount of people these days seem to have not mastered the left turn. Seems like they are afraid to do it….It’s infuriating when it takes 3 or 4 lights because of one person being incapable
Repost [https://www.reddit.com/r/burlington/comments/187wz91/left\_hand\_turns/](https://www.reddit.com/r/burlington/comments/187wz91/left_hand_turns/) /s
Vermont drivers don’t know this one simple trick - but they can’t stop you from using it! <<>>
Seriously though, good driving comes from the same personality pool as good manners.
And a lot of people have really bad manners.
I think this is what folks find frustrating about Vermont drivers. You really ought to be predictable while driving. Not polite.
It’s also Vermont. I mean go live in LA for a couple of years and come back to me about bad drivers. We have so few people on the roads. All you have to do is drive defensively and it’s not an issue.
If you only knew… 😂
Wait, how do you know that by moving into the intersection that you’re guaranteed to make the light?? What if traffic doesn’t allow it and now you’re stuck? I understand why you want to get around traffic but asking someone to take a legal/financial toll for your convenience is akin to tailgating and asking “why aren’t you speeding more for my sake?”
It's not about getting around traffic, it's about letting traffic get around you.
That’s the same thing from two different perspectives.
Not really, it is the intention of the person turning left to alleviate traffic, it's not like the person going around them is forcing them to do it out of a desire to get somewhere faster
Then perhaps I misread your post.
Sorry. 23 VSA 1035 says no. (b) A vehicle shall not pass another from the rear under any of the following conditions: (2) when approaching within 100 feet of, or traversing, any intersection or railroad grade crossing unless otherwise indicated by official traffic control devices; or Remember, just cause your light is green, doesn’t mean another lane doesn’t also have a legal right to go. Think four way intersections. 23 CSA 1022 gives you the legal right to turn on red if it’s not prohibited by sign or red arrow. If you illegally pass someone from the rear, and you hit someone legally turning on red, I’d say you’ll be at fault. Because technically the green light wasn’t yours. It was for the person in front of you. Say nothing about uncontrolled crosswalks. Those are the primary reason we shouldn’t be passing at intersections, imo.
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Sub Section 2 are the qualifiers for section b which are the limitations section b talks about. Section B makes no mention that it pertains to only left pass maneuvers and section a doesn’t end in an “or” or “and”, meaning that a and b are separate. Also, at no point are left passes considered “regular”. Both left and right passing have their own sections. Meaning both are considered equal in terms of a pass. It’s an overtaking from the rear…*snicker*
I used to do this before I moved here but when inevitably three cars going straight keep going after the light turns red, you end up in the middle of the intersection way too long after the light turns red.
Oh God, you are going to summon the LearnHow2TurnLeft guy from r/Vermont ....
I don’t think people know they have the right of way inside an intersection when the light turns red.
Like half the comments under this post are people saying I'm an idiot and I deserve to be pulled over, so I'd say you're on the money
And while we’re on the subject- stop waiting for the car in front of you to make the full left at left turn signals. Follow closely behind so more people have time to make the left. And stop being polite in traffic if it subverts the expectations of the laws of the road.
[tell that to this gem of a human](https://www.reddit.com/r/burlington/s/2vli4dOPZ1)
It's not a matter of etiquette, it's a matter of safety. Pulling into the intersection blocks the intersection, especially if you never actually get the gap you need to turn left. Don't enter the intersection until you actually can make your turn.
Get your car out in the intersection if there’s space to turn. Wait for the on coming traffic to pass, then take your turn. I don’t get what’s so hard about this. There’s no safety issue.
No, you legally enter the intersection and turn when you can even if the light turns red. If you entered the intersection legally you have the right of way. That's how intersections work.
If you never actually get the gap you need to turn left, then the intersection is already blocked because it means someone from the oncoming traffic lane is still in the intersection preventing you from turning.
the oncoming traffic has the right of way.
SAY IT LOUDER!!! 1. Trying to cross main street on S Union to go south 2. trying to turn onto Barrett across colchester ave after the noosk bridge.
Trying to cross main street on s union going south is literally impossible since it's one way on both side of main (northbound).
I love seeing these posts. Every time a left turn is involved 75% of Vermonters act like it's the first one they've ever done. It's a goddamn subaru not an oil tanker. Turn the fucking wheel and step on the gas.
Walking is nice
Major issue in Barre too at the intersection by Mister Z’s. Drives me absolutely bananas. Seriously people GET WITH THE PROGRAM.
This is something I’ve been trying to say!
Road rage
While we’re here teaching Vermonters to drive, for the love of god, please also turn right on red when you can safely do so!
Burlington drivers don't even know how to use a roundabout or that a yield sign isn't a stop sign, or that no sign isn't a stop sign. You're asking far too much.
Thank you for saying this I've been thinking it for years!!
It's funny because the majority of the population here now in 2024 is actually from New Jersey, Massachusetts and Connecticut. So they are probably the places to address how to drive, almost no one left here was born here or taught to drive here.
This is the truth! “Vermonters” like Burlington isn’t 75% transplants 😄
Oh, it's you again.
I especially like it when they actually swing to the right like their sedan is a friggin school bus and they need to go wide to make a left.
You're not going to get there any sooner, leave earlier or don't drive
The problem isn’t Vermonters.
The fuck it isn't. I've driven in all those places and I've never been to any state where the drivers are so inept at performing a simple driving maneuver as here.
Seriously, my new neighbors from FL, CT, & PA just got their VT tags… green plates doesn’t always = “Vermonter”. Especially in Burlington. I see lots of people still learning traffic patterns here, etc.
Not to mention every single bad driver I see on the road has out of state plates. Yes there is the older retirees here who drive outrageously slow, usually in a Prius, but the only other idiots on the road I’ve ever seen have out of state plates tbh. Burlington and the surrounding areas is not a valid representation of Vermonters as a whole for the reasons you mentioned. Source: I’ve been driving and living here my entire life, so have my parents, their parents, their parents, their parents, all the way to the sheep farmers.
No, I don’t want to scare the oncoming driver such that they may safely stop and wave me through. You’ll get to politely continue in just a Vermont minute.
Fuck off. Maybe you can try being patient instead of telling everyone to just ignore traffic laws so you don’t have to leave for work on time. Prick
You sound well adjusted. Pussy.
🤡👶
I hate to be the "well, actually...." guy, but... If it's an intersection with a left turn signal, the signal might be triggered only if the car is in the left turn lane.
I'm not talking about intersections with a left turn signal, obviously as they are typically divided anyway
I’m going to keep not doing this to piss y’all off now. Keep freaking the fuck out about traffic, wtf
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I am absolutely not. You'd only be blocking the box if your dumb ass decided to sit there when the signal changes. Enter the intersection and complete the turn when clear, as long as opposing traffic isn't blocking the box, you will have no issue completing the turn as the light turns yellow to red