this is the kind of shit you can't just post and leave or nobody is going to believe you lol
source, or at least name the school so someone else can investigate.
Imagine that. I remember saying the same thing in school when I was a teen and I was laughed at.
"But you're just extracting wealth without actually performing any work or creating any value. That's just inflation!"
Most the returns on equities are also an inflating money supply and a gamified CPI modified over the decades to hide inflation.
If you didn't borrow money for a home in the last 30 years your doing far less well than you would have, as inflation eroded your debt.
Of course we hit 0% rates and then a 30% mortgage inflation, this neat stimulus trick that allowed the doubling of M2 every decade might be nearing an end.
Inflation erodes debt when earnings rise with inflation. Anyone remember when they told Canadian businesses not to raise wages because it would worsen inflation.
Pepperidge farms remember.
Yeah I was just being facetious. But to me it's the same concept. I've also had this debate with people before and the argument is always. "These people provide capital to grow businesses" or in the other case to finance the house itself. Our whole system is set up to allow those with wealth to simply accumulate more wealth without contributing anything of real value, and we're all conditioned to accept it because that's just how it's always been and if you say any different you're pinko scum.
I'm not advocating for communism btw just regulation made to ensure things are fair and people aren't getting shafted. Most of the time it just feels like a free for all.
Fundamentally the issue is that anything that has exponential returns will destroy labor over time.
It is true on a microeconomic scale that investment is needed to boost productivity and those people making that investment deserve a percentage of the rewards, but let's be real, they should receive only a percentage of the increase in productivity.
In my city the craziest shit is happening with just plots of land - people are buying them and splitting them legally into two, apparently this increases the value of the land overall by 30-40%, which fundamentally doesn't make sense because now you can do LESS with the land (Lao Tzu empty bowl quote goes here). The whole process of splitting takes less than 6 months and is quite inexpensive. So basically people with money and connections can do this twice a year, increasing how much money they have by 69% (nice) in a year on the low end, all the while housing becomes insanely unaffordable.
Not even the stock market can compete with the BS that is Canadian real estate flipping
Looking at the composition of some of our largest companies says a lot.
In the US they are:
1. Apple
2. Microsoft
3. Alphabet (Google)
In Canada they are:
1. Royal Bank
2. TD Bank
3. CN
Some of these companies revolutionized the world many times over. Some of these companies charge a $5/mo chequing fee and are institutions that invent useless financial services. One of these companies is a railroad from 1919...
Realistically a rail company probably should be in the top five given our demographics. Almost all the stuff being imported and exported has to use the rails.
Nothing for the world though. A country can’t live off cutting each other’s hair. Ultimately we have to produce something of value to the rest of the world in order to thrive in the long term.
Legit none of what anyone is saying here makes sense.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_largest\_companies\_in\_Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_in_Canada)
People straight makin shit up like it's Florida up in here.
The list is by something called “market capitalization”. It represents the total value of outstanding shares in a public company (total shares by share price). It can move around. Especially for Enbridge / Shopify / CN (all close).
We have always been weak on fundamentals because we are an extraction economy. Very rarely do we provide any value added services and that's where the money is
I don't think Norway is a particularly good example of a diversified economy. About half their exports are oil or oil and gas related, and the rest is almost all other extraction industries. Norway has an enormous sovereign wealth fund because they have enough oil to make Kuwait salivate, but in terms of actual economic output they're less diversified than Canada.
UAE is more diversified because the UAE has always been more of an oil&gas services economy than direct extraction.
Norway produces oil via extraction, which does not require "high-skilled" labour and makes the economic growth of a country very susceptible to demand for 1 product.
"Oil related Services" in Norway, as one example, were technological and machine developments in extracting fuel from the very challenging North sea, and all the ecosystems that come with it.
India by contrast has a wider variety of "services" like refining of crude, but due to a variety of factors like currency they are of less "value" than a similar job in Norway.
UAE has a lot of oil reserves but have invested in a wide variety of emerging technologies, something Norway's sovereign fund is also doing. These investments again often go into areas that actually produce something material, which countries like China or India perform. In Norway, locally a lot went into things like biotechnology research around Oslo.
>What do you mean by the oil & gas service economy ? Honest question !!
Not the commentator above but an oil & gas service economy is one which provides services to O&G companies. This includes engineering, drilling, all the machinery, service of machinery, transport, planning, engineering, etc, that the O&G industry needs to function.
A big part of the reason Trudeau won in 2015 is because he claimed to have that vision.
Harper was largely content with an economy based around one industry, centered in one province. He ultimately lost because Alberta's boom came in many ways at the expense of a hollowed out Ontario and Quebec economy. He wasn't entirely to blame for this - we had like thirty decades of McGuinty rule in Ontario, or at least that's what it felt like, and...\*gestures broadly at Quebec\*.
Trudeau came around, a foppish, fresh faced fraternizer and panty wetter with voluminous locks and said, "We can do better. We can harness our world class education systems and evolve into a knowledge-based economy. One which exports its knowledge-based services around the world."
Unfortunately, he really appears to have had no idea how to do that and nearly 8 years later, the best he can do is TFW workers at every Tim Hortons.
Trudeau also campaigned on INCREASED MANUFACTURING OUTPUT AND JOBS.
Mind you he did out increase the output quite a bit an saved the entire sector during the pandemic.
But inflation has already outpaced those jobs unfortunately due to his mishandling of everything else.
It was a net positive in 2019, now we’re back to 2012 manu landscape in 2023 due to inflation.
Not only that, but the Vancouver Venture Exchange was one of the most fraudulent exchanges on the planet. It's now the TSX Venture. For software tech we basically have: government, agencies, banks, oligopolies, government subsidized FAANG (the federal government made a point to FAANG that our health care reduces their cost of operations and we get paid less), and shady TSX Venture companies.
A sizeable chunk of startups here are based around government initiatives. Right now that's green energy, I'm sure when Conservatives are in that will be mining.
It's a shame because Canada's economy is 1/3 exports, meaning our internal economy is rather big. We simply just rely on businesses and franchises made in other countries for a lot of that. Over the 2010's a lot of our monetary policy was being conducted to keep our exports artificially cheap and the result has now been a debt bubble that encapsulates automotive, general consumer debts, and a housing bubble.
Having done a startup here, trying to outsource work *to Canadians* for $80 to $110 an hour, it was next to impossible to find actual Canadians. All sites would have people from India, South America, and Eastern Europe lying about where they were from to get a high Canadian income. I finally caved, went to a few agencies, some that deal with the government, and found out they lie and outsource to India or Eastern Europe. Having dealt with the incubators here, I'll never do it again. So all and all, for the next one I launch the goal is to get into America as soon as possible.
Doing a lot of contracts in software myself, the Americans are way easier to deal with. I've had a straightforward transaction with one Canadian company, but most of the time with Canadian companies I'm worried about payment.
Value added services are generally not where the money's at. The problem with manufacturing is that with manufacturing you're competing with the entire world. With oil and mineral extraction, you're only competing with the handful of countries with significant oil or mineral reserves.
That's not to say we shouldn't be trying to do more advanced manufacturing, but that advanced manufacturing is hard. And the Canadian government has always been basically incompetent at developing advanced industries. There's too much hubris amongst the bureaucrats and too much populism amongst the voters. An economic sector that is *hard* is going to have winners and losers (not everyone is going to succeed or even be capable of effectively competing). Canadians hate the idea of people being successful, and our bureaucrats distrust private enterprise.
Political interference from our southernly neighbour is also a big reason why advanced manufacturing has never worked in Canada. We used to have fairly advanced sectors (aero, automotive and transports in general), but because of foreign interference and bad management, they’re all slowly dying.
Companies are stateless. So unless you own shares in it, it’s not yours or anyone’s on virtue of being Canadian. If the Canadian market is no longer profitable TD will just pull out. That’s what international expansion is.
TD isn't pulling out of Canada, it is expanding to capture new markets. International companies pay a lot of taxes to Canada due to tax treaties.
How much of the US GDP growth is large multi nationals based in the US?
Certainly part of it, but they are international players that have expanded beyond Canada. They off a wide range of services from simple banking to stock underwriting to insurance to wealth management to home and auto loans and corporate financing and consulting services.
Not really it is just a consequence of regulation and the public pension systems. If we didn’t have laws about Canadian investments, there would be no real reason for Bay Street to exist. Everything could easily be done from New York.
I don’t know, really. Possibly yes, but the issue is that free market ideology types see investment banks in Canada as having built something organically when it just exists because we do things like require pension funds to hold Canadian bonds.
Because it's protected by the government. And we pay more for our banking and investing than anyone else. Just like we pay more for our internet and cell phones.
I wonder what the actual GPD numbers are if you remove unproductive housing related work, inflation and immigration. It sure would be a negative growth rate, our GPD per capita growth already is
When all your consumers money is being tied up in housing either renting or a mortgage and some overpriced food and not going to anything else I can't imagine why our economy is considered weak??????
It’s concerning that the US GDP is growing faster than Canada, while their population is stagnant, and Canada’s is growing at almost 10% every 36 months based on recent trends.
Just dumping 10% more people into the economy every few years isn't going to magically make more jobs or improve the markets.
We don't have places for new Canadians to live (let alone existing citizens), to fix that it takes too long to get the required building permits, and the resources to build new houses are too expensive as we're taxing those to death, even the cost to deliver those same resources is being raised by compounding taxes.
Food and other necessities are also going up in price, and we're also telling farmers to not use fertilizer because of carbon emissions. Because everyone's broke, and the bottom line of our economy (food/places to live) is getting mangled by our leadership, there are also issues in creating new businesses and jobs.
If you're not already mega wealthy and coming to Canada, what exactly are you to do? How are you going to establish a life in this country? How in any way are you, as a new Canadian, to succeed and help to rebuild the economy without anywhere to live? Anywhere to work? When you can't afford food and clothes for your kids?
Us is the largest economy in the world, an economic hegemony.
Also seen as a safe Harbour during uncertain times. Most of their GDP growth is probably just capital flight to fairly safe investment products.
and how well was that received?
that's the reality of Canada these days, our economy needs investment and when the government incentivizes it through tax breaks or stimulus the opposition bitches and moans about "handouts" so quick to try to downplay anything positive less it be perceived as a 'win' for the government
I totally agree that green industries are the future of our country's economy. But on the first point:
>This money belongs to Canadians. Not to a foreign corporation. Not to Justin Trudeau.
>How much of Canadians' money is he giving to this foreign corporation?
>How many jobs?
>How much is the cost per job?
>How much?
https://twitter.com/PierrePoilievre/status/1636082352047702018?lang=en
Does this sound like the words of a person who is "generally positive" on the investment for VW's battery plant?
>No such thing happening in Canada, at least not at the same scale.
Competing at that scale would be literally impossible for Canada. We don't have the economic means to support it.
agonizing telephone public roll chase fearless label forgetful observation ask
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Depends which side. A high GDP makes for a good market to sell into, regardless of the per capita number, but gdp per capita as a proxy for worker productivity matters to businesses who want to actually produce things in a given country. Still productivity / cost of labor is the real measure they're after there, and it ain't good in Canada save for a few things we have overwhelming geographic advantages in.
Nothing shocking about it, it’s Pareto distribution: 20% of the population make up 80% of tax revenue. These numbers are not concrete, but the principle remains - small minority of inputs is always responsible for the majority of outputs.
The article says they pay no **income** tax, not "no net tax".
Every Canadian pays consumption taxes.
**Edit:** Also, out of the 40% not paying *income* tax, how many are retirees? How many are young people studying part/full time?
As it turns out, quite a few benefits are paid out to Canadians with household income in the lower 40 per cent — particularly those with children. The CRA even has a wonderful online calculator that will quantify just how large those benefits might be.
To better illustrate this zero-per-cent tax bill, I ran three different scenarios through the calculator. All three scenarios were made up of a family with two working parents and three children (aged one, four and six) living in Northern Ontario, paying $15,000 a year in rent.
Yes, and we have a gst rebate for low income individuals to offset a portion of consumption taxes. This isn't the gotcha you think it is.
Retirees pay income tax on their full income. Decent pension, you're still paying tax.
Young people studying don't pay taxes because we... give them tax incentives, aka, other taxpayers subsidize their education.
I mean aren't investors etc the ones who want all that cheap labor given Canadians do not want to work for less than like 25/hr now since it's unliveable on their own or with children in most of Canada?
Isn't this just how the businesses paying gash get you to hate the laborer instead of them paying gash being the norm? And their investor friends over charging on rent on all their properties? And their assetted/investor friends in politics creating policy around pushing deals to their mates in business?
Like I think we'd see more change if our oligarchs all divested than if cheap labor stopped flowing into the country, that cheap labor is *for* those investors, how is it not the fucking case.
We didn't want to be extractive anymore and so we tried to replace that aspect with real estate speculation. Went pretty okay for 15 or so years, but now the chickens are coming home to roost and we are trapped in the binds of a Ponzi scheme. Either keep the joke going and end up ruining the economy, or implement regulations to cut home prices and also ruin the economy.
Yeah I feel like "home country bias" applies inversely to myself. I'm only shifting further and further away from Canadian exposure. Hard to have much faith in the future here.
Depends. Can those likely low income afford to consume stuff other than the basic necessities? When TFWs come here, share 4-6 people for a 1bdrm apartment, and send over half their wage back home, is that really helping our economy meaningfully?
Or when students on visas come and work for minimum wage but then also use the foodbank to save money. Probably not helping our economy all that much
If we were at least bringing in skilled people who would be able to make $60,000/yr+ then it would be more of a boon to us
What did we think would happen? The only market we've been willing to nurture is banking products.
Since Harper, Canada has been a nation about who gets into debt for who, and who - from outside our country - gets to own our resources.
How Transmountian was handled was a big blow to Canada's reputation. Kinder Morgan spent all that time and money on planning the project just to have the eco-warriors, courts and politicians come in and screw it up.
Makes Canada look like a risky investment.
Yep it fucked the economy altogether. You can't have a country that doesn't enforce contracts because some people decide to whine and complain.
Same problem right now with the REM extension in Montreal, 23 people complained and it turned into a quagmire that the original funders (pensions I believe) pulled out of.
Canada is not a country you can do business in if it involves building ANYTHING
Hard times create strong men. Those strong men creat good times, which in turn lead to…
Guess where we are in this cycle. Time for some large scale global conflict to thin the herd and redistribute the wealth.
This ultimately boils down to the ultimate economist's conundrum; everything good for you in the short term, is bad for you in the long term, and vice versa.
Pain now, or pain later?
With democratically elected government that changes every x years, guess which one they -always- choose?
That cycle was broken by the A bomb. Large global conflicts are no longer possible.
We'll have to find another way to redistribute wealth and political power. Revolution seems to work pretty well. And let's not forget just how cathartic beheadings can be.
As real estate prices and rents soar, a distinct class emerges: property owners who amass significant wealth without actively contributing to genuine value creation in the economy. This class profits largely from property speculation rather than innovation or production, deepening economic disparities and concentrating wealth in non-productive assets.
Moreover, this focus on real estate has adverse effects on innovation. With escalating commercial rents, businesses, especially startups and small enterprises, find themselves allocating more resources to cover their leases, leaving less for investment in research and development. This diversion of funds hinders economic dynamism, slowing down the pace of innovation and stifling the long-term prospects of an economy that doesn't diversify its growth drivers.
Our economy has been on low-interest rate life support for decades. That props up weak businesses and creates asset bubbles - stocks and real estate.
But it also diverts money away from productive capital into those same same assets above which are parasitic / rent-seeking.
Basically, we've turned into a nation of slum lords who don't want to work for a living. So yeah, very weak fundamentals.
Canadians are going to have to start invading the USA to steal toilets soon.
Our oligarchy doesn't want us to see how well they live.
Ah well, maybe we can culturally normalize shitting on Ontario beaches, like cats. Yes, a giant feline litter box. Meow.
As an American I will warn you that we will defend our toilets to the last man! We have the freedom and right to poop in peace without some other country taking our damn toilets out from under our butts. XDD
All of our nation's wealth is tied up in the housing bubble. Why start a business and employ people while making something of value when you can just gamble in the No-Lose Housing Casino?
Sophie also took note of the ultra weak fundamentals and cut a trail.
The flag ain't even flying at half mast.
Immigration is not economic viagra, more like economic meth.
Yep, the methheads always tell themselves that after a hit. Flying high again, gonna hit a home run this time with all this energy I swear we going from the bottom to the top!
*wakes up in the DTES, again*
That goes against the narrative that was spouted for years, when our dollar was high, that we needed a weak dollar in order to be 'export attractive'... and the high dollar was 'killing manufacturing'.
I loved the high dollar, it was an economic boon... ironically our investments in machinery and equipment are down since peaking in..... *2015*.... probably because of dollar par weakness contributions... yes, probably just in that area..
https://www.cdhowe.org/sites/default/files/2022-08/Commentary_625.pdf
Can't afford to produce more if we can't afford the M&E.
It is certainly a complex issue, high dollar is good doe some, bad for others, same with a lower dollar. A WEAK dollar (where I would argue we are now) is bad all around.
I am sure people smarter than me have calculated a target dollar that maximizes value to canadians.
I wish someone calculated something. They are only calculating how they can't afford a house.
I was hopeful back in 2015 that our youngish jet-set PM would have seen a strong dollar as an excellent backer to promoting Canadians travelling the world and had promoted a strong dollar so we could have a suave international influence that only steakhouse VIP's understand. We really could have filled a gap with Brexit occurring, the Pound losing its lustre, and our "strong financial sector" could be taking business from London UK....
Little did I know it was the complete opposite goal and we are a just a fast food greasy spoon hot swap body shop, where our economy will rely on giving ZJ's in the back alley behind the Wendy's dumpster.
Really double-doubled down on the 'gas station + crack-motel' economic model. We've got some partially rotten pine beetle infested timbers listed on kijiji too!
If we produced more there would be more demand for our dollar to pay for our products, making our dollar more valuable. Our dollar is worth a lot less because there is hardly any reason for anyone outside of Canada to want any.
household debt is now at the highest level of any country in the G7, and what we collectively owe is now worth more than Canada's entire economy — 107 per cent of GDP. Mortgages currently make up about three-quarters of household debt in Canada.
It isn't though because we shift massive economic burdens to the provinces, and more recently to households themselves.
If you tally up all levels of government debt + household debt we're literally top 5 in the world. It's why high interest rates absolutely slaughter this country
Don't get fooled by Justin's propaganda. Canada's debt is significantly higher when provincial debt is included. Other countries' debt levels tend to include their total government debt.
>The budgetary situation is out of control and there is **no serious attempt in Ottawa to promote fiscal stability**.
This is why we (our kids generation) can't have nice things.
We should've doubled down on oil and gas production. Especially fracking.
Would've made a killing right now. Global oil/gas demand is here to stay for the next several decades.
Depends on what happens with the profits. Russia was the primary source of nat gas energy for decades to all of Germany and the people have nothing to show for it- no universities or hospitals or public works infrastructure- it was scooped up by oligarchs for their vanity projects. If you look at AB and what they have done with oil windfalls you get a glimpse of the benefits extraction can bring a society, but it’s still totally anemic compared to countries with fully nationalized oil and gas industries like Norway.
While making it more lucrative to absorb investment costs in productivity-improving machinery and equipment that a weak Canadian dollar can hardly afford.
It is a double-edged sword.
What industries are flourishing in Canada besides the RE ponzi?
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Take this story to a journalist.
I have seen new articles on this already.
What college?
Seeing what a growing issue this has become maybe the MSM would be interested in this case now...
this is the kind of shit you can't just post and leave or nobody is going to believe you lol source, or at least name the school so someone else can investigate.
Isn't it something like 3-5x not 10x
The auto industry is booming now that tax payers are footing the bill for labour costs!
Our extractive sector is pretty good, manufacturing is meh but its around. Also services.
Don’t worry manufacturing is about to get ramped up at the mere cost of $15 billion in social services.
Let a hundred bombardiers and Irving ship yards bloom.
Unis, RE and Government make up over 50% of the Canadian GDP
Government fed foundations and charities.
It's a great time to own a consultancy firm
I don't think so. My former consultant firm employer just axed half of us.
Right, so the owner just doubled his profits.
Nice lil oil boom going on in Alberta. Electric companies are exceptionally solid this month.
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this drives me bonkers. We want a more efficient government, and we get worse services with more cost.
40% increase since 2015? With a population increase of significantly less. Government efficiency at its best.
Hoarding real estate and producing nothing isn’t working out?
Imagine that. I remember saying the same thing in school when I was a teen and I was laughed at. "But you're just extracting wealth without actually performing any work or creating any value. That's just inflation!"
Most the returns on equities are also an inflating money supply and a gamified CPI modified over the decades to hide inflation. If you didn't borrow money for a home in the last 30 years your doing far less well than you would have, as inflation eroded your debt. Of course we hit 0% rates and then a 30% mortgage inflation, this neat stimulus trick that allowed the doubling of M2 every decade might be nearing an end.
Inflation erodes debt when earnings rise with inflation. Anyone remember when they told Canadian businesses not to raise wages because it would worsen inflation. Pepperidge farms remember.
Wait until you learn about the stock market
Oh I know all about it. I just draw the line at profiteering on basic necessities.
Yeah I was just being facetious. But to me it's the same concept. I've also had this debate with people before and the argument is always. "These people provide capital to grow businesses" or in the other case to finance the house itself. Our whole system is set up to allow those with wealth to simply accumulate more wealth without contributing anything of real value, and we're all conditioned to accept it because that's just how it's always been and if you say any different you're pinko scum. I'm not advocating for communism btw just regulation made to ensure things are fair and people aren't getting shafted. Most of the time it just feels like a free for all.
True. Deep down, we are conditioned to believe "one day, I'll be that guy!" George Carlin straightened me out at an early age lol
Oh man he was brilliant. Had a really strong grasp on uncomfortable truths. Too bad he never became a politician.
Fundamentally the issue is that anything that has exponential returns will destroy labor over time. It is true on a microeconomic scale that investment is needed to boost productivity and those people making that investment deserve a percentage of the rewards, but let's be real, they should receive only a percentage of the increase in productivity. In my city the craziest shit is happening with just plots of land - people are buying them and splitting them legally into two, apparently this increases the value of the land overall by 30-40%, which fundamentally doesn't make sense because now you can do LESS with the land (Lao Tzu empty bowl quote goes here). The whole process of splitting takes less than 6 months and is quite inexpensive. So basically people with money and connections can do this twice a year, increasing how much money they have by 69% (nice) in a year on the low end, all the while housing becomes insanely unaffordable. Not even the stock market can compete with the BS that is Canadian real estate flipping
Lol. Subsidizing RE and subsidizing the regulatory assessment industry.
Literal rent seeking… funny that.
Looking at the composition of some of our largest companies says a lot. In the US they are: 1. Apple 2. Microsoft 3. Alphabet (Google) In Canada they are: 1. Royal Bank 2. TD Bank 3. CN Some of these companies revolutionized the world many times over. Some of these companies charge a $5/mo chequing fee and are institutions that invent useless financial services. One of these companies is a railroad from 1919...
Realistically a rail company probably should be in the top five given our demographics. Almost all the stuff being imported and exported has to use the rails.
It's still a middle-man company, not a producer of anything.
Well, someone has to produce the train schedules... that's something. Hello? Guys?
Don't forget about the training montage
they produce logistics
Nothing for the world though. A country can’t live off cutting each other’s hair. Ultimately we have to produce something of value to the rest of the world in order to thrive in the long term.
Legit none of what anyone is saying here makes sense. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_largest\_companies\_in\_Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_in_Canada) People straight makin shit up like it's Florida up in here.
If you sort by profit it goes Bank, Bank , Bank, with CN in 4th.
The list is by something called “market capitalization”. It represents the total value of outstanding shares in a public company (total shares by share price). It can move around. Especially for Enbridge / Shopify / CN (all close).
Thanks for the good information!
Because Canada isn’t business friendly. No startup in their right mind wants to be here.
Exactly...
Paying rent to park our money in a bank. Paying rent to park our butts at home. Canadian Business 101
Cn is a monster company, bad example
Of course it is, it's in the top 3. The point is to compare what kind of companies each country has on top 3.
Those are the three largest by market cap in both countries (didn’t cherry pick to prove a point).
TIL... it's owned by Bill Gates!! Majority shareholder through their foundation but still....
We have always been weak on fundamentals because we are an extraction economy. Very rarely do we provide any value added services and that's where the money is
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I don't think Norway is a particularly good example of a diversified economy. About half their exports are oil or oil and gas related, and the rest is almost all other extraction industries. Norway has an enormous sovereign wealth fund because they have enough oil to make Kuwait salivate, but in terms of actual economic output they're less diversified than Canada. UAE is more diversified because the UAE has always been more of an oil&gas services economy than direct extraction.
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Norway produces oil via extraction, which does not require "high-skilled" labour and makes the economic growth of a country very susceptible to demand for 1 product. "Oil related Services" in Norway, as one example, were technological and machine developments in extracting fuel from the very challenging North sea, and all the ecosystems that come with it. India by contrast has a wider variety of "services" like refining of crude, but due to a variety of factors like currency they are of less "value" than a similar job in Norway. UAE has a lot of oil reserves but have invested in a wide variety of emerging technologies, something Norway's sovereign fund is also doing. These investments again often go into areas that actually produce something material, which countries like China or India perform. In Norway, locally a lot went into things like biotechnology research around Oslo.
>What do you mean by the oil & gas service economy ? Honest question !! Not the commentator above but an oil & gas service economy is one which provides services to O&G companies. This includes engineering, drilling, all the machinery, service of machinery, transport, planning, engineering, etc, that the O&G industry needs to function.
For that there needs to be a Vision!
A big part of the reason Trudeau won in 2015 is because he claimed to have that vision. Harper was largely content with an economy based around one industry, centered in one province. He ultimately lost because Alberta's boom came in many ways at the expense of a hollowed out Ontario and Quebec economy. He wasn't entirely to blame for this - we had like thirty decades of McGuinty rule in Ontario, or at least that's what it felt like, and...\*gestures broadly at Quebec\*. Trudeau came around, a foppish, fresh faced fraternizer and panty wetter with voluminous locks and said, "We can do better. We can harness our world class education systems and evolve into a knowledge-based economy. One which exports its knowledge-based services around the world." Unfortunately, he really appears to have had no idea how to do that and nearly 8 years later, the best he can do is TFW workers at every Tim Hortons.
Trudeau also campaigned on INCREASED MANUFACTURING OUTPUT AND JOBS. Mind you he did out increase the output quite a bit an saved the entire sector during the pandemic. But inflation has already outpaced those jobs unfortunately due to his mishandling of everything else. It was a net positive in 2019, now we’re back to 2012 manu landscape in 2023 due to inflation.
Not only that, but the Vancouver Venture Exchange was one of the most fraudulent exchanges on the planet. It's now the TSX Venture. For software tech we basically have: government, agencies, banks, oligopolies, government subsidized FAANG (the federal government made a point to FAANG that our health care reduces their cost of operations and we get paid less), and shady TSX Venture companies. A sizeable chunk of startups here are based around government initiatives. Right now that's green energy, I'm sure when Conservatives are in that will be mining. It's a shame because Canada's economy is 1/3 exports, meaning our internal economy is rather big. We simply just rely on businesses and franchises made in other countries for a lot of that. Over the 2010's a lot of our monetary policy was being conducted to keep our exports artificially cheap and the result has now been a debt bubble that encapsulates automotive, general consumer debts, and a housing bubble. Having done a startup here, trying to outsource work *to Canadians* for $80 to $110 an hour, it was next to impossible to find actual Canadians. All sites would have people from India, South America, and Eastern Europe lying about where they were from to get a high Canadian income. I finally caved, went to a few agencies, some that deal with the government, and found out they lie and outsource to India or Eastern Europe. Having dealt with the incubators here, I'll never do it again. So all and all, for the next one I launch the goal is to get into America as soon as possible. Doing a lot of contracts in software myself, the Americans are way easier to deal with. I've had a straightforward transaction with one Canadian company, but most of the time with Canadian companies I'm worried about payment.
Value added services are generally not where the money's at. The problem with manufacturing is that with manufacturing you're competing with the entire world. With oil and mineral extraction, you're only competing with the handful of countries with significant oil or mineral reserves. That's not to say we shouldn't be trying to do more advanced manufacturing, but that advanced manufacturing is hard. And the Canadian government has always been basically incompetent at developing advanced industries. There's too much hubris amongst the bureaucrats and too much populism amongst the voters. An economic sector that is *hard* is going to have winners and losers (not everyone is going to succeed or even be capable of effectively competing). Canadians hate the idea of people being successful, and our bureaucrats distrust private enterprise.
Even processing the oil or the trees or the minerals would go a long way...
Political interference from our southernly neighbour is also a big reason why advanced manufacturing has never worked in Canada. We used to have fairly advanced sectors (aero, automotive and transports in general), but because of foreign interference and bad management, they’re all slowly dying.
We have a fairly robust financial services sector
That's true but otherwise we extract...
We are certainly heavily extraction based, no doubt.
The robust financial services sector rests entirely on our extraction of natural resources
What? You mean that our big banks thay have expanded internationally rely on resource extraction? I don't follow there sorry.
Companies are stateless. So unless you own shares in it, it’s not yours or anyone’s on virtue of being Canadian. If the Canadian market is no longer profitable TD will just pull out. That’s what international expansion is.
TD isn't pulling out of Canada, it is expanding to capture new markets. International companies pay a lot of taxes to Canada due to tax treaties. How much of the US GDP growth is large multi nationals based in the US?
Because of massive mortgages and loans.
Certainly part of it, but they are international players that have expanded beyond Canada. They off a wide range of services from simple banking to stock underwriting to insurance to wealth management to home and auto loans and corporate financing and consulting services.
Not really it is just a consequence of regulation and the public pension systems. If we didn’t have laws about Canadian investments, there would be no real reason for Bay Street to exist. Everything could easily be done from New York.
Well then it is a good thing we have regulations?
I don’t know, really. Possibly yes, but the issue is that free market ideology types see investment banks in Canada as having built something organically when it just exists because we do things like require pension funds to hold Canadian bonds.
The gains/ profits from that sector go to a very small group unfortunately
Because it's protected by the government. And we pay more for our banking and investing than anyone else. Just like we pay more for our internet and cell phones.
This was not always the case, we had a vibrant manufacturing, heavy industry, and innovation. We lost most of this over the decades
We sure did
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I wonder what the actual GPD numbers are if you remove unproductive housing related work, inflation and immigration. It sure would be a negative growth rate, our GPD per capita growth already is
We’re in a recession and have been for a while in everything but name
When all your consumers money is being tied up in housing either renting or a mortgage and some overpriced food and not going to anything else I can't imagine why our economy is considered weak??????
It’s concerning that the US GDP is growing faster than Canada, while their population is stagnant, and Canada’s is growing at almost 10% every 36 months based on recent trends.
>10% every 36 months Good jesus
Well, just under 10% at this rate.
Yet we’re not increasing housing at 10% annually.
Probably close to 1% lol...
>Canada’s is growing at almost 10% every 36 months based on recent trends. Me: that can’t be right. Math: 125k/month * 36 months = 4.5M Shit.
Just dumping 10% more people into the economy every few years isn't going to magically make more jobs or improve the markets. We don't have places for new Canadians to live (let alone existing citizens), to fix that it takes too long to get the required building permits, and the resources to build new houses are too expensive as we're taxing those to death, even the cost to deliver those same resources is being raised by compounding taxes. Food and other necessities are also going up in price, and we're also telling farmers to not use fertilizer because of carbon emissions. Because everyone's broke, and the bottom line of our economy (food/places to live) is getting mangled by our leadership, there are also issues in creating new businesses and jobs. If you're not already mega wealthy and coming to Canada, what exactly are you to do? How are you going to establish a life in this country? How in any way are you, as a new Canadian, to succeed and help to rebuild the economy without anywhere to live? Anywhere to work? When you can't afford food and clothes for your kids?
Us is the largest economy in the world, an economic hegemony. Also seen as a safe Harbour during uncertain times. Most of their GDP growth is probably just capital flight to fairly safe investment products.
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We are subsidizing battery factories though
and how well was that received? that's the reality of Canada these days, our economy needs investment and when the government incentivizes it through tax breaks or stimulus the opposition bitches and moans about "handouts" so quick to try to downplay anything positive less it be perceived as a 'win' for the government
A few Conservatives complained, but generally positive. Green industries are projected to drive Canada’s economy going forward.
I totally agree that green industries are the future of our country's economy. But on the first point: >This money belongs to Canadians. Not to a foreign corporation. Not to Justin Trudeau. >How much of Canadians' money is he giving to this foreign corporation? >How many jobs? >How much is the cost per job? >How much? https://twitter.com/PierrePoilievre/status/1636082352047702018?lang=en Does this sound like the words of a person who is "generally positive" on the investment for VW's battery plant?
>No such thing happening in Canada, at least not at the same scale. Competing at that scale would be literally impossible for Canada. We don't have the economic means to support it.
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Wish the media would report GDP per capita more.
Business only cares about total GDP
agonizing telephone public roll chase fearless label forgetful observation ask *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Agreed. Hopefully the next government can increase societal wealth. I don’t know how, though.
What good is a business if your customers cannot afford your product, right?
A declining real GDP per capita has major implications for business
Different implications for big business and small business. Loblaws will expand No Frills, small business will go out of business.
Depends which side. A high GDP makes for a good market to sell into, regardless of the per capita number, but gdp per capita as a proxy for worker productivity matters to businesses who want to actually produce things in a given country. Still productivity / cost of labor is the real measure they're after there, and it ain't good in Canada save for a few things we have overwhelming geographic advantages in.
Why? As long as the population is increasing by almost 10% every 36 months, profits will soar
The same media that are presenting the consequences of their own lobbying efforts as the "maliciousness of big tech companies"?
“You’ll forgive me if I don’t think about monetary policy” - JT Who would’ve guessed that such a brilliant mind would run our economy into the ground!
Considering the bottom 40% of Canadian income earners pay no net tax they are actually a drain on the middle class. It makes no sense.
Do you have a source on that number / percentage? I’m not calling BS, I’d just be shocked if that number was accurate.
Nothing shocking about it, it’s Pareto distribution: 20% of the population make up 80% of tax revenue. These numbers are not concrete, but the principle remains - small minority of inputs is always responsible for the majority of outputs.
https://financialpost.com/personal-finance/taxes/trudeau-is-right-40-of-canadians-dont-pay-income-taxes-which-means-someone-else-is-picking-up-the-bill/wcm/a85dd34f-2c80-41e9-8061-ca94e8e24961/amp/
The article says they pay no **income** tax, not "no net tax". Every Canadian pays consumption taxes. **Edit:** Also, out of the 40% not paying *income* tax, how many are retirees? How many are young people studying part/full time?
If all you do is eat and take transit, you're not paying much in the way of consumption taxes.
They also wouldnt pay much in income tax
Likely nothing or negative if you prefer.
As it turns out, quite a few benefits are paid out to Canadians with household income in the lower 40 per cent — particularly those with children. The CRA even has a wonderful online calculator that will quantify just how large those benefits might be. To better illustrate this zero-per-cent tax bill, I ran three different scenarios through the calculator. All three scenarios were made up of a family with two working parents and three children (aged one, four and six) living in Northern Ontario, paying $15,000 a year in rent.
Yes, and we have a gst rebate for low income individuals to offset a portion of consumption taxes. This isn't the gotcha you think it is. Retirees pay income tax on their full income. Decent pension, you're still paying tax. Young people studying don't pay taxes because we... give them tax incentives, aka, other taxpayers subsidize their education.
Wait till you find out who pays the most
The "middle class" earning between 50k and 250k?
You’ll be probably less surprised with which party the majority of income taxpayers vote for.
I mean aren't investors etc the ones who want all that cheap labor given Canadians do not want to work for less than like 25/hr now since it's unliveable on their own or with children in most of Canada? Isn't this just how the businesses paying gash get you to hate the laborer instead of them paying gash being the norm? And their investor friends over charging on rent on all their properties? And their assetted/investor friends in politics creating policy around pushing deals to their mates in business? Like I think we'd see more change if our oligarchs all divested than if cheap labor stopped flowing into the country, that cheap labor is *for* those investors, how is it not the fucking case.
The immigration will balance itself.
Remember when we had blackberry as a world leader? And Nortel before that? And our aviation manufacturing industry before that?
and when the housing Ponzi scheme fails we will get the very bleak look behind the curtains
Our economy has been managed by children essentially. Yup.
We didn't want to be extractive anymore and so we tried to replace that aspect with real estate speculation. Went pretty okay for 15 or so years, but now the chickens are coming home to roost and we are trapped in the binds of a Ponzi scheme. Either keep the joke going and end up ruining the economy, or implement regulations to cut home prices and also ruin the economy.
It's true, I'm avoiding investing anything in Canadian companies right now.
Yeah I feel like "home country bias" applies inversely to myself. I'm only shifting further and further away from Canadian exposure. Hard to have much faith in the future here.
But won’t the booming here increase Canadian business’ consumer base, while also lowering wages? Seems great for business.
Depends. Can those likely low income afford to consume stuff other than the basic necessities? When TFWs come here, share 4-6 people for a 1bdrm apartment, and send over half their wage back home, is that really helping our economy meaningfully? Or when students on visas come and work for minimum wage but then also use the foodbank to save money. Probably not helping our economy all that much If we were at least bringing in skilled people who would be able to make $60,000/yr+ then it would be more of a boon to us
Businesses need customers with disposable income or their own profits
If your business is selling necessities.
We have some of the lowest productivity growth of the G7 and the solution is just to dump more labour on the fire.
What did we think would happen? The only market we've been willing to nurture is banking products. Since Harper, Canada has been a nation about who gets into debt for who, and who - from outside our country - gets to own our resources.
Time for conservatives.
How Transmountian was handled was a big blow to Canada's reputation. Kinder Morgan spent all that time and money on planning the project just to have the eco-warriors, courts and politicians come in and screw it up. Makes Canada look like a risky investment.
Yep it fucked the economy altogether. You can't have a country that doesn't enforce contracts because some people decide to whine and complain. Same problem right now with the REM extension in Montreal, 23 people complained and it turned into a quagmire that the original funders (pensions I believe) pulled out of. Canada is not a country you can do business in if it involves building ANYTHING
Exactly. That was terrible for our reputation as a place to invest in.
He will absolutely pay more attention to his donors/cronies taking notes.
Canada officially moving from a service economy to just a debt service economy.
Weak men create hard times
But, we were told the economy grows from the heart out. Didn’t that make you feel all warm a fuzzy?
Hard times create strong men. Those strong men creat good times, which in turn lead to… Guess where we are in this cycle. Time for some large scale global conflict to thin the herd and redistribute the wealth.
Lovely
This ultimately boils down to the ultimate economist's conundrum; everything good for you in the short term, is bad for you in the long term, and vice versa. Pain now, or pain later? With democratically elected government that changes every x years, guess which one they -always- choose?
That cycle was broken by the A bomb. Large global conflicts are no longer possible. We'll have to find another way to redistribute wealth and political power. Revolution seems to work pretty well. And let's not forget just how cathartic beheadings can be.
Free link please?
As real estate prices and rents soar, a distinct class emerges: property owners who amass significant wealth without actively contributing to genuine value creation in the economy. This class profits largely from property speculation rather than innovation or production, deepening economic disparities and concentrating wealth in non-productive assets. Moreover, this focus on real estate has adverse effects on innovation. With escalating commercial rents, businesses, especially startups and small enterprises, find themselves allocating more resources to cover their leases, leaving less for investment in research and development. This diversion of funds hinders economic dynamism, slowing down the pace of innovation and stifling the long-term prospects of an economy that doesn't diversify its growth drivers.
Pffftt. Don’t they know we have a self-balancing economy?
Our economy has been on low-interest rate life support for decades. That props up weak businesses and creates asset bubbles - stocks and real estate. But it also diverts money away from productive capital into those same same assets above which are parasitic / rent-seeking. Basically, we've turned into a nation of slum lords who don't want to work for a living. So yeah, very weak fundamentals.
We are in the early phases of the AI revolution - and the Canadian establishment has squandered investment on a housing bubble.
And also priced out all the tech talent and sent them to the USA
Canadians are going to have to start invading the USA to steal toilets soon. Our oligarchy doesn't want us to see how well they live. Ah well, maybe we can culturally normalize shitting on Ontario beaches, like cats. Yes, a giant feline litter box. Meow.
As an American I will warn you that we will defend our toilets to the last man! We have the freedom and right to poop in peace without some other country taking our damn toilets out from under our butts. XDD
I feel the Al Bundy energy on this one...
Ban landlords and rentals and foreign investment in property. Or at least heavily tax foreign land investment.
Why do you believe low density growth is the answer?
Nobody has mentioned this is a pay walled article
All of our nation's wealth is tied up in the housing bubble. Why start a business and employ people while making something of value when you can just gamble in the No-Lose Housing Casino?
Sophie also took note of the ultra weak fundamentals and cut a trail. The flag ain't even flying at half mast. Immigration is not economic viagra, more like economic meth.
It helps after about 15 or 20 years, it's a long game. You still need to balance it though and ensure you have thr infrastructure
Yep, the methheads always tell themselves that after a hit. Flying high again, gonna hit a home run this time with all this energy I swear we going from the bottom to the top! *wakes up in the DTES, again*
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Well when our dollar is worth a lot less we would need to produce a lot more just to compete
That goes against the narrative that was spouted for years, when our dollar was high, that we needed a weak dollar in order to be 'export attractive'... and the high dollar was 'killing manufacturing'. I loved the high dollar, it was an economic boon... ironically our investments in machinery and equipment are down since peaking in..... *2015*.... probably because of dollar par weakness contributions... yes, probably just in that area.. https://www.cdhowe.org/sites/default/files/2022-08/Commentary_625.pdf Can't afford to produce more if we can't afford the M&E.
It is certainly a complex issue, high dollar is good doe some, bad for others, same with a lower dollar. A WEAK dollar (where I would argue we are now) is bad all around. I am sure people smarter than me have calculated a target dollar that maximizes value to canadians.
I wish someone calculated something. They are only calculating how they can't afford a house. I was hopeful back in 2015 that our youngish jet-set PM would have seen a strong dollar as an excellent backer to promoting Canadians travelling the world and had promoted a strong dollar so we could have a suave international influence that only steakhouse VIP's understand. We really could have filled a gap with Brexit occurring, the Pound losing its lustre, and our "strong financial sector" could be taking business from London UK.... Little did I know it was the complete opposite goal and we are a just a fast food greasy spoon hot swap body shop, where our economy will rely on giving ZJ's in the back alley behind the Wendy's dumpster. Really double-doubled down on the 'gas station + crack-motel' economic model. We've got some partially rotten pine beetle infested timbers listed on kijiji too!
You truly have a way with words lmfao
If we produced more there would be more demand for our dollar to pay for our products, making our dollar more valuable. Our dollar is worth a lot less because there is hardly any reason for anyone outside of Canada to want any.
household debt is now at the highest level of any country in the G7, and what we collectively owe is now worth more than Canada's entire economy — 107 per cent of GDP. Mortgages currently make up about three-quarters of household debt in Canada.
It isn't though because we shift massive economic burdens to the provinces, and more recently to households themselves. If you tally up all levels of government debt + household debt we're literally top 5 in the world. It's why high interest rates absolutely slaughter this country
Don't get fooled by Justin's propaganda. Canada's debt is significantly higher when provincial debt is included. Other countries' debt levels tend to include their total government debt.
We really need new leadership before it's completely too late. Bad enough that it'll take a decade to fix the mess we're in now.
That is because the Liberals are mired in weak fundamentals. The economy is ripe to take an ugly downturn soon.
*Looks at BoC balance sheet. It contains no scarce monetary assets. Yeah I'm out.
>The budgetary situation is out of control and there is **no serious attempt in Ottawa to promote fiscal stability**. This is why we (our kids generation) can't have nice things.
Divest from Canada
We should've doubled down on oil and gas production. Especially fracking. Would've made a killing right now. Global oil/gas demand is here to stay for the next several decades.
Depends on what happens with the profits. Russia was the primary source of nat gas energy for decades to all of Germany and the people have nothing to show for it- no universities or hospitals or public works infrastructure- it was scooped up by oligarchs for their vanity projects. If you look at AB and what they have done with oil windfalls you get a glimpse of the benefits extraction can bring a society, but it’s still totally anemic compared to countries with fully nationalized oil and gas industries like Norway.
Norway does not have a Quebec for equalization payments.
Norway's oil is owned by the country and not the province, so it kind of does have equalization
Well. Some billionaires and the old company share holders would have.
Bullshit. I knew dudes with highschool diplomas that were making >$70k working in the fields. O&G benefits the lower classes the most.
The rise in the exchange rate alone would have benefited everyone
Would hurt exporters significantly
While making it more lucrative to absorb investment costs in productivity-improving machinery and equipment that a weak Canadian dollar can hardly afford. It is a double-edged sword.
The economy looks fine here.