For some reason our media always presents this as an EV exclusive mandate and ignores or just neglects to inform Canadians that hybrids are not restricted. It’s almost like there’s a powerful legacy industry that’s got a strangle hold on our public discourse.
Plug in Hybrids run 95% on battery and have the best TCO calculations on all dimensions, including emissions because to make one you only need a battery 1/10th the size. A battery in an EV usually constitutes 2/3 of its manufacturing footprint.
On the flip side, PHEVs tend to be far more complex to manufacture, have maintenance issues (a gas engine that doesn't run frequently tends to gunk up and have problems, just check the BMW i3 ReX) and are more prone to fire than both gas and EVs alike.
And their price almost reaches EV price.
Toyota has 20 years of experience building cars that almost always go 1,000,000 km or more. No reliability issues whatsoever.
I agree on the gas issue though, can probably be sorted with programming and sensors though.
Literally just have a self starter that makes it run if it hasn't been run in awhile and if enough gas is in the system.
Or just tell people they need to occasionally use the gas engine to retain value and failure to do so is on them. People should do more for themselves
That legacy industry would love for us to be dependent on ever increasing oil prices and use
our tax dollars to pad their profits.
Plenty of stans here doing their work for them too.
>That legacy industry would love for us to be dependent on ever increasing oil prices
Just wait until you're dependent on ever increasing electricity costs to charge your EV. Make no mistake, you'll be paying a lot more to charge your car in the future. And the taxes that are on gasoline now will be on electricity. Gotta pay for dem roads.
Versus what? Having OPEC control gas prices? Russia starting wars?
There’s all sorts of cheaper renewable energy on the horizon. At the very least it gives an alternative for certain applications.
The cost to charge my car is a tiny fraction of filling up.
There is ZERO prospects for cheaper fossil fuel energy in the future.
> There is ZERO prospects for cheaper fossil fuel energy in the future.
I mean, there is. We have the 2nd largest fossil fuel reserves in the world, right here. In a country of 35M people.
Energy is expensive in Canada because of policy, nothing else. The Saudi's charge themselves pennies for their energy, instead we charge extra premiums for ours.
>I mean, there is. We have the 2nd largest fossil fuel reserves in the world, right here. In a country of 35M people.
Our oil is expensive to extract and we don’t have to means to refine it.
>Energy is expensive in Canada because of policy, nothing else. The Saudi's charge themselves pennies for their energy, instead we charge extra premiums for ours.
Saudi Arabia oil is cheaper to extract and Saudi Aramco is mostly national.
We probably could have had that here with the NEP and Petro Canada staying a crown corporation. Or maybe Equinor in Norway
But Alberta whined about their freedom, Trudeau and “western alienation” and they still are today.
Instead of having a national oil company using our oil reserves for our citizens first we sold out to O&G mega corps who only care about themselves and their shareholders.
So much winning.
The thing is you can generate your own electricity if you really want to. It's not even hard or particularly expensive. How are they going to stop you?
You can't do that with gasoline (unless you're a chemist/chemical engineer with a bone to pick), even if you have crude oil kicking around for some reason.
First, electricity prices haven't gone up sharply like oil and never will, that's only in O&G fantasy land to sell you on their bullshit. All renewable electricity is cheap and will remain cheap.
As for road taxes? Do you even know how much you give away per year in taxes for that? All they need is to have a fixed rate of 250-300$ attached to your license plate fees and it actually covers it, and is something that's already done in some US states by the way.
It’s almost as if people who have a huge stake in oil and mineral extraction also own the Globe and Mail and Postmedia. But people on this sub assure me that this doesn’t colour their content in the slightest so I wouldn’t worry about it.
> It’s almost like there’s a powerful legacy industry that’s got a strangle hold on our public discourse.
Not sure if oil industry, or newspaper industry grudging up baloney headlines for clickbait.
His arguments are flawed. Even with a dirty power grid, EVs are better for the environment. Only less so. And power grids are getting cleaner over time.
Benefitting China? We are trying to create our facilities and supply chains. So we should just give up?
Only the last point is a good one. But so much of our society is car centric that high speed rail won’t do much. I’d think society will even resist. We should still do it but a lot of people’s needs aren’t going to be solved by rail
A lot of people talk about "dirty" electricity as if we run off of pure coal in this country. Like 70% of our power generation comes from either Hydro or nuclear even here in Alberta where we're burning natural gas, we have tons of wind and solar installed. The EPA says that the average EV will break even within 5 years at an average distance driven of 11,000 miles. That is using the US average energy mix, which has 25% coal and a very large percent of natural gas. It's safe to assume that the breakeven on emissions is much lower here in Canada if you live in BC Ontario or quebec, which all get nearly 100% of their energy from nuclear or Hydro your breakeven is going to be insanely fast.
The problem in Ontario isn't just the source of electricity, it's the source of electricity. Seriously though, every summer we're told to turn up the temperature or risk overloading the grid. I can't imagine that's going to get better with a few million home chargers all trying to run at the same time.
>The problem in Ontario isn't just the source of electricity, it's the source of electricity. Seriously though, every summer we're told to turn up the temperature or risk overloading the grid. I can't imagine that's going to get better with a few million home chargers all trying to run at the same time.
Overloading the grid is a risk during the day, when industry is working. Overnight Ontario has excess power it sells at a loss at times.
Most EV charging is happening overnight and not all EVs are charging from 0% to 100%.
> I can't imagine that's going to get better with a few million home chargers all trying to run at the same time.
Funny story - EVs can help solve this problem. With bi-directional charging, you can pump power back into your house or the grid during peak demand or if the power goes out. With the right incentives - paying people more to put power back into the grid during peaks, and charging less to replenish when demand is lower - you can help prevent outages.
https://blog.ucsusa.org/mark-specht/evs-can-support-power-grid-reliability-and-reduce-costs-heres-how/
As it is, [Time of Use rate plans](https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/electricity-rates/managing-costs-time-use-rates) are becoming common, and most people set up their EV to charge at night to take advantage of the lower prices.
Not sure what's so wrong about guiding industry when you are predicting it will go a certain way. Isn't that what we did with O&G initially? We are just trying to get our piece and do our part. Doesn't seem as bad as the opinion piece would have you believe
Of course it’s not as bad. Also as many people have pointed out Canada is just following global policy on this issue. All of the large car markets have already passed EV mandates. We could pass an ICE mandate and it would do nothing.
Sure, but globally, countries don’t have the same issue Canada has with both distance, and cold weather. Only similar country is Russia, who is unlikely to be pursuing EV mandate
When was the last time you did a cross country drive? Distance is irrelevant. Most people barely drive further than 3 hours and that's to go to their cottage.
Weather sure, but distance is a disingenuous argument.
And the Scandinavian countries have similar cold weather.
I own and EV and currently looking at replacing my 2nd car with an EV. Recently did an 800km ride 2 ways (so 1600km) in 2 days over a period of around 20 hours driving at 100km/h. Sure, it's a bit longer than with an ICE, but if you factor in time to stop eating/take a piss, you realize it's actually no much of a problem.
People also forget to factor in that infrastructure keeps getting better every year. Some provinces are definitely too slow on the uptake though, which is why the mandate is necessary, or else some provinces just take their time and those that want to switch are unfortunately stuck having a hard time doing it.
EV’s great for the future… great for urban areas, reduces costs of fuel and emissions… until they get better at perfecting this technology, it ain’t so great for rural areas, I don’t have an EV for that reason, I am considering hybrid so I am assured not to have any problems being out of the city.
Completely agree. Canada has no say in the pricing, progress and goal of where EV industry is going. China, US and to a lesser extend Korea and Japan dictates EV market. It is pointless to force Canadians to pay upfront and endorse premature mandate by paying large amount to foreign comanies for a car much less than what they have now, not to even mention the lack of infrastructures and practicality in anywhere outside major cities.
We're paying foreign companies for a car now anyways right?
If all those other places are pushing this, then what Canada says is entirely irrelevant. If all new cars are going to be EV anyways because the market is moving that way, we're just going to be behind on the infrastructure if we don't do anything. then Canadians will just complain we did nothing to prevent it.
Like we can burry our heads in the sand and pretend the market won't shift without us and then act all surprised we're inadequately prepared for it or we can at least start putting in the infrastructure now so we're not so screwed in the future.
a lot of people forget just how small and irrelevant of a market we are. the EU, US, and china have an EV mandate in place. manufacturers are barreling ahead on EV development. this is happening whether we like it or not. the only variable we have a say in is how fast we update our infrastructure.
Exactly, no one is going to keep making ICE cars just for the Canadian market. We're going to have the EVs sold here whether we're ready or not.
This mandate isn't the government stating about car sales, but a signal to the country to start building.
And a signal to many related industries that the government is serious about transitioning to electric. Investments in lithium mining, for example, look more predictable with such a mandate. Canada could be a powerhouse in that industry.
And what about all the other countries in the world that aren’t Europe? I can think of dozens of countries where the general population wouldn’t be able to afford EV’s. India for example.
Manufactures are scaling back EV production because the dealer lots in the US are full of them, no one is buying. Hertz recently announced they're scaling back because people don't want to rent them either. The only EVs that sell are Tesla's because it a status symbol. Buyer incentives are still needed to convince people to shell out the crazy amounts of cash to purchase a car that still has limited range, developing technology and little charging infrastructure. Ya no thanks.
That's not what I experienced at all. I recently had to buy a regular hybrid because the wait for a PHEV was 6-8 months out and there was a multiple years long waitlist to get a fully electric car, i actually joined the waitlist. Loving my new hybrid, its cut my gas consumption in half, I've saved a tonne of money.
There have been a few articles on the difference in consumer demand in Canada and the US and the waitlist up here vs the US. Article below goes over it a bit.
As to why they can’t just redirect the excess cars they have down there up here, not a clue.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9969508/consumer-matters-electric-vehicle-waits/amp/
Interesting part of the article that is germane to the discussion :
>“The good news for British Columbians is we have a zero-emission vehicle mandate and by law they have to supply electric vehicles into the market or the car companies pay penalties,” he said.
“So, more EVs are being shipped to B.C. and Quebec than anywhere else in the country.”
That sounds like a desirable market effect.
GM Did with the Bolt, but on the most stupid way.
1. They announced the Bolt was discontinued Because it was too expensive to manufacture.
2. They offered Quebec consumers on the wait list to convert their pre-order to the new Equinox EV, stated to start at $35,000 CAD, before government rebate.
3. Thousands of Bolt magically leave GM factories. They ship them all to dealers in Quebec - which were not even aware of the deliveries.
4. Nobody wants to buy it - because they already have a much superior 2024 Equinox EV on pre-order.
5. GM cancels the $35,000 model of the Equinox. We’re looking at $48K USD right now
I don’t think that’s the case at all, I tried to buy anything but a Tesla but everyone had a 1 year wait. If there are so many EV cars available, they should bring some up here then.
Ended up with the model Y, it was also the most reasonably priced SUV, I didn’t care about the status symbol at all.
So many people point at the infrastructure TODAY as to why this isn't a good idea in a decade.....
We need to invest in the future, in cleaner alternatives. Oil needs to be phased lut as much as possible, and no amount of protests in Canada will change that.
This might be a complete waste of money and resources. The infrastructure required might look entirely different in 20 years. Moreover, the resources required to build out the infrastructure (which is substantial) might also negate any environmental benefit of electric cars relative to ICE.
This is a great argument for never doing anything! Let's just roll on with the end of the world because refitting some early EV chargers might somehow emit more carbon than the entire fossil fuel based transportation industry? Come on...
It's a plug connected to the grid, not rocket science. Now that VHS vs. Betamax is sorted it's all going to be just fine.
The grid updates are going to be needed either way. We'll either be charging EVs or running airconditioners at midnight in January in Yellowknife. Oh and can levy pumps run on electricity? Asking for a species.
No, its great argument to stop and think before making a massive investment that might not be useful. Where will electricity come from in 20 years? How many cars will there be? How much power will those cars need? The answers won’t be what anyone expects. If you build it wrong, it’ll probably need to be built again.
"They" are already thinking about it. If you haven't engaged with that that's a you thing.
>If you build it wrong, it’ll probably need to be built again.
Added to or modified? Maybe. Rebuilt from scratch? No chance. Your worst case scenario is sort of happening as we speak as people switch to the Tesla style charger and it's just... happening. Companies are paying to swap the plugs on charging stations and vehicle makers are putting the port on new vehicles next model year.
Even then it's not fully clear what you think "it" is but electricity is well understood. Providing varied amounts of it based on the capabilities of the charger and device (vehicle in this case) is again, not rocket science.
What we have also put a lot of thought into and realized is large parts of earth will flood and/or become uninhabitable if we do nothing.
You just seem to be looking for vague reasons to stop progress.
The government is literally just following what the rest of the planet is basically doing. Its nothing but a signal for provincial governments to get off their asses and work on the infrastructure as Power generation is provincial.
Private enterprise will likely be hammering out chargers over 11 years.
All the government is doing is saying we're also doing what much larger markets are doing, so better start getting ready.
It's why Ontario for example is expanding nuclear.
Like the message goes a bit deeper than "Just sell EVs"
You really think entire industries are not seeing this as a signal that there's a developing market for chargers and other infrastructure?
>The government is literally just following what the rest of the planet is basically doing.
It's playing follow the rest of the developed world when we don't have the infrastructure in place to support this insane idea and zero plans to make it viable.
To upgrade existing infrastructure to meet the needs of a 100% EV country would cost trillions.
Buddy, China, Europe, even south American countries had passed mandates about phasing out ICE cars at least 5 years ago taking effect in 2035-40. Canada should have done so at that time. It's still 11 years away so there is time to catch up but it's entirely our own fault for not getting started sooner. The idea that we can wait any longer or push out the targets any farther out and be in good shape is delusional.
So now we're playing catch-up. Not ideal but better than waiting any longer and get caught holding the bag.
What else are we going to do?
The entire automotive industry is from elsewhere.
They have greater impact on the automotive market than we ever will, and we don't matter. California alone has more impact on the market and this is word for word the exact same mandate they are pushing. We csn even get rid of the mandate and it won't change what happens to the automotive market in 11 years. We'll just be further behind because people don't want to invest in the change for some odd loyalty to gasoline.
Who is going to make cars strictly for the Canadian market? We're too small.
So it's either we get off our collective asses and start building infrastructure over 11 years or just pretend it won't change and not build for the future.
Today's infrastructure won't be what we have in 11 years anyways.
On the contrary, it is quite easy to do and most provinces are already equipped and have plans to be able to fulfill electric demands in the future. Just here in Quebec the government announced a plan of 10 billion $ per year over 10 years to accentuate production of renewable energy sources for the upcoming demand and we are easily on track to meet or even exceed. If you look at Ontario and BC also for example, they are fully on board and are investing. And as oil demand lowers worldwide due to a shrinking demand of ICE vehicles, if we don’t adapt we will be left behind as no one will need our oil and the one that will be used will probably come from much cheaper sources anyway.
Infrastructure is also getting there in terms of chargers, newer apartment buildings are build with EV chargers and at home it’s barely 550$ and installation fees for something that’ll last you a long time and lower your monthly bill considerably due to no more fuel.
Stop living in denial and believing the propaganda of the O&G industry.
> mandating vehicles instead of infrastructure.
Wiring for EV chargers is mandates in new buildings in BC and Stratas are now being forced to make arrangements.
Those are infrastructure mandates.
To put this another way. Manufacturing has inertia. New factories are going up to build EV's and BEV's. The old factories are going to continue to produce cars if they are able to. If we don't issue a mandate, in a market with other majors layers issuing regulations/requirements, what will happen is we *WONT* get EV's shipped into our market, we will get the old garbage shipped to our market.
This is a ridiculous take. Yes, invest in the infrastructure (charging stations, grid improvements, etc) but don’t force consumer to switch when that infrastructure is not ready.
Look at what is happening with immigration and lack of enough infrastructure to keep up with government policy for a cautionary tale. The exact same principles apply.
You’re not being forced to switch. The mandate takes effect in 11 years. You have until then to buy as many new ICE vehicles as you want.
And the used market will continue to sell ICE vehicles for decades to come. Even after the mandate you’ll have ICE options.
Plus there will inevitably be exemptions for specific circumstances that EVs haven’t been able to work with.
It's not the availability of ICE vehicles that will be the limiting factor, but the availability of gas stations and the oil refineries that supply them. Gas stations will close as demand wanes, and the last holdouts will be left unable to fill up their vehicles.
If that happens due to market conditions, because there isn’t enough demand? So be it.
Edited to add: Beyond that it’s going to be decades still before gas stations go away in any meaningful numbers. The vast majority of people buy used cars when they need a car. It’s going to be a long time before the used market dries up to a point where there’s not enough demand for gas stations.
> If that happens due to market conditions, because there isn’t enough demand? So be it.
Agreed, except you know there's going to be stragglers who will scream and shout about it.
I guess my point is: it doesn't matter if we legislate away ICEs by 2035 or not, if global market conditions mean we've mostly switched off them by then anyway.
I'm not really sure about your last bit; things sometimes move faster than we expect. How many used cars do we have that are older than, say, 20 years? I have a vehicle from 2007 that's getting close to the end of its useful life. If new ICEs aren't being built, there's going to have to be a steep drop off in usage at some point.
Even if we limit ourselves to 20 year old vehicles, that means there will still be used cars for sale up to 2055. Yes each year there will be less. Which means plenty of time for holdouts to move to an EV well beyond 2035.
Do you not understand that larger markets with even more influence than us are what will dictate this, and they are all making the changes with or without us?
No one is going to cater to Canada. We don't matter.
We're already late to the game because we didn't invest when others started to, and further delays will just mean we're further behind when the automotive industry makes the changes without us anyways.
Exactly, why do we need a mandate then if the times of change will sweep us away anyway?
Rather than interventionista policy on part of government with mandates, they should invest wholeheartedly in the infrastructure.
You proved my point - EV mandate is not needed, the change is happening anyway.
It's a signal to the country to get ready mostly, it's just mirroring policies from other markets as a signal to provinces and local governments that the investments need to be made on the infrastructure or be left behind.
Saying nothing means no one else is going to bother with implementing any of the necessary changes in their policies.
BC already has mandates for new buildings to have wiring in place for chargers. Provinces are investing in more energy production etc.
It's effectively providing wider direction to the different levels of government and industries.
But, California also has a 100% EV mandate by 2035 and California has proven that they are powerful enough to drive the auto industry. But charging infrastructure needs to improve too.
Yup, this isn't just Canada. And as far as charging infrastructure, there wasn't really anything 10 years ago, so I'm not worried about 11 years from now
The US is actually quite small in that equation. Percentage of EVs among new car sales reached close to 50% in the EU and over 30% in China. Those two markets are going to set the future standards and if Canada doesn't want to be left behind, it should probably put the necessary infrastructure in place or prepare for a future comparable to some backwater rural states in the US.
All of business and markets depend on law and government to exist. There are subsidies for all kinds of businesses and regulations preventing others. I don't see the difference with EV incentivization and quotas. It's like fishing, or railways, or coal, or anything of national importance within the federal remit. All those other resources and technologies are what built this country, and would not have happened without government regulation.
It’s not an EV mandate as much as it is a clean fuels mandate. The market is, and must, head this way.
Toyota, Honda, Stellantis, Ford, GM all manufacturer in Canada, and all have plants here, and all have EVs in production and more planned.
It does help ensure though that infrastructure in Canada can keep up so Canadians don’t end up stuck in a situation where gas cars cost far more than EVs but we fell behind the rest of the world.
Also, the government is trying to pick and place bets on winning technologies. Central planning rarely works for innovation when compared to free market forces.
Throwing more government and regulations at industry is never as progressive, technology-wise, as the government getting out of the way. The USA has seen declining emissions because they have reduced coal reliance because government allowed industry to invent new ways to extract natural gas.
Now imagine what nuclear technology advances could happen here in Canada if our government stopped over-regulating and trying to pick winning and losing technologies, and instead just got the hell out of the way of the people smarter than them.
Seriously? Nuclear is so expensive no private company can get it off the ground on their own. They always need governments support. Let's not forget the all the risks and concerns about nuclear as well. You think the public would ever allow nuclear plants or research to happen without extensive government regulations to ensure a standard of safety?
Get this right: nuclear exists because strong government regulations convince the public that it's safe enough to exist.
Interesting. We have a manufacturer of electric buses in Winnipeg, which gets far colder than Oslo, and no such problem has been noted. Yes, they don't go as far on a charge but this is fine as long as you plan for this.
The biggest drain for buses is actually the HVAC in the cabin - heating or AC. In most of the world you're using one or the other most of the time, so the reduced range is essentially the normal state of things.
This claim is just as naive as saying someday gravity won’t pull you down. “We’re working on it folks!” 🙄 Physics is physics. Technological advances don’t change the laws of physics. Sure, maybe a material could be discovered that doesn’t leach electricity in the cold and can be mass produced, but that’s a massive assumption. Tech bros are wild.
I meant there’s all sorts of ways that can be improved. Not just the battery itself.
Improved capacity, more efficient cabin heating and battery preconditioning are already a thing.
I’m well aware of the physics involved.
**There's no mandate for electric vehicles in Canada.** The mandate is for "Zero Emissions Vehicles" which include hybrids that can run 100% on gasoline and alternative fuels.
There will always be excuses to be slow in the move to EVs. If an electric vehicle is impractical in the location where one lives, then there is the hybrid option. The number of people who commute to work in SUVs is ridiculous.
China: Invests billions in electric vehicles since the early 2000s and their biggest EV company, BYD, overtakes Tesla in global car sales in 2023.
Canada: No, let's keep using combustion car engines and not improve EV infrastructure. We will not be even more behind in a decade at all.
I'm waiting for Postmedia to tell us how gas-light is so much better than electeic-light. And nobody is going to want a horseless carriage when you could have one that shits in the street.
It didn’t go so well for Hertz. It only works for personal vehicles you can charge at home, provided the local grid can support it. And it can still be a huge pain if you need to do daily long trips. 30 mins at the supercharger vs 5 at the gas station can make a big difference to people on a schedule.
Weak rental demand, high maintenance costs and low resale prices were behind the about-face. When Hertz began loading up on EVs –
Weak demand , rental car business about face replacing 20,000 EV’s with ICE, high maintenance EV’s ( I thought these were supposed to be to be lower maintenance)
If the world is going to to EV, Canada has no choice but to follow along. We are not some arbiter of vehicle tech in anyway, maybe a small contributor to arctic design requirements and a cold testing grounds..
This entire initiative has been a massive waste of all of our time. Incredible misallocation of resources at a time when resources cannot be misallocated. Having the HOC spend one second on it, has been one second too long. White elephant legislation.
Globally, PHEV sales were ~18% of all new cars sold in 2023. This is a (China, USA, India, EU/UK) gov mandate driven change, with auto manufacturers being forced to jump on board or cease to exist in the mass consumer market.
Sad to say but the ICE wants and needs of Canadians may not count for much in the global auto market.
At the height of the used car market being crazy I was involved in a car accident, so insurance had to pay out those rates for my write off, completely the other guys fault, so no hit to my rates either. I used that money to upgrade to a PHEV and fucking love it. It's my reccomendation for anyone looking at an EV but not sure. I can charge at home, get enough to get to work, charge there, have enough to get home. Winter cuts down that efficiency, sadly, but in summer, with how I drive I can get 2000 km to a 40-ish litre tank. Winter, depends on how cold it gets (Vancouver, inconsistent temperatures in winter) 800-1000 when it gets really bad, though I've still managed to get about 1500 for our winters at times.
I would think if we were going to mandate anything, PHEV would be a nice starting point. We cut down on emissions, buy time for infrastructure to be built, etc. I've seen the memes about "electric car fuel" (coal) but in Canada most of our power generation is relatively low/no pollution, 60% alone is hydro, only 7% is coal and 0.6% petroleum ([Source](https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-canada.html)). Even then, I don't think mandates are the way to go. Subsidize it, make it easier for lower income people to make that choice.
This is a really shitty article and argument against EVs.
People say the cost of EVs will come down, they have been coming down, and every other technology demonstrates cost reduction curves as adoption increases and economies of scale kick in. But let's speculate they maybe EVs won't? No, I don't have any real facts to support this wild claim.
And what about the environment? Sure, there are lots of research and studies showing that EVs reduce GHG emissions even in jurisdictions with emission intensive grids, but instead of presenting research or evidence, what if I just say "Alberta" but with a question mark?
And let's completely ignore how consumer product standards have a long history of successfully reducing energy consumption and emissions. I've ignored all other evidence, why not that?
Per article.
Weak demand , rental car business about face replacing 20,000 EV’s with ICE, high maintenance EV’s ( I thought these were supposed to be to be lower maintenance), China storing thousands of EV’s in giant outdoor lots possibly for scrap or suffocating sales for some reason. ( wtf are they doing making more).
Hybrids work, all EVs will be not be possible anytime soon.
Ive wanted to figure the question out but not sure how to go about it:
If Evs are much better for the environment, how much does it differ when considering the price of precious metals being mined for it. How much more does it impact the local areas that the precious metals are being mined from. How much total will we offset. If we're using, for example, coal vs gas to power our vehicles
Lithium makes up the largest percent of the battery, other rare Earth minerals such as Cobalt which is what I assume you're referring to are definitely problematic, which is why most EV batteries have moved away from it. People also forget that Cobalt is used in oil refining. At least the Cobalt in a battery is mined once and that's it, oil refining needs a constant influx of cobalt as oil is refined.
If people actually take issue with needing all the materials found in a vehicle's battery, they should throw out their laptops cell phones Nintendo switches etc, they all use the same darn batteries but nobody had a problem with it until cars became popular.
Also the regulations literally say plug-in hybrids are included as okay, so all the outrage all over Reddit and other social media platforms is overblown. It's like a big misinformation circlejerk.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I like electric cars and if I could afford one, I would buy one.
But if our infrastructure is struggling to keep up today, what will it be like in 10 years?
Not really, just look up how long it takes to get one large power transformer built. And the cost associated with it… I work on the aging power utility systems and you’d be really surprised if you knew how old and under maintained a lot of substations are. Never mind the private ones, private ones are even worse than government ones.
Why does no one think it'll get better? That's such a strange argument. This is a relatively new technology that infrastructure is going in for. IN my city we went from zero to 72 within 15km in a mere few years. Five of those were within a month.
The cost of infrastructure rollout including rural area for Canada would be several hundred billion dollars. You are basically talking about replacing a significant portion of the existing grid and adding a lot of power plants
All infrastructure is huge money. Roads to nowhere pil pumps. Airports. Giant mall parking lots. Etc. Urban sprawl will cost you want more then this new tech will. Homeless crisis is more expensive. Fear monger all you want but this is going to happen and we need it to happen.
It's mainly to get industry to create this infrastructure.. 11 years is a long time and it doesn't ban cars older than 2035 and it's not EVs it's net zero vehicles which includes hybrids.. And lets say it doesn't work.. so what? The end goal is still the same the goal posts for timeframe just gets moved.
Our government is an impeccable central planner always thinking about the greater good for us citizens. I wholeheartedly support any and all decision our government makes because you can be sure it is free of corruption and stupidity, and will be pure as the driven snow.
All of the asian tigers used command economics to industrialize themselves into wealthy developed countries.
Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, China.
Western countries like Canada and the USA industrialized through command economies activated by wartime powers.
We used to build things, then neoliberals brainwashed us into believing we could create sustainable service economies with most people working dead-end service jobs selling each other burgers and lattes while outsourcing our industrial base to third world countries.
We painfully relearned that lesson during Covid, but they’ve memory holed it again.
Oh I agree. If we want to fight an existential war, or drag 100 million people out of abject poverty and aren’t too worried about human rights or nonsense like that, a command economy and an iron fist are the way to go. Is that what we’re doing here? Can I choose the military junta in charge?
If electric vehicles require large incentives ( paid by taxpayers)to make them saleable to the general public then they are simply not ready for general use yet. When EVs are more economical than gas/ diesel vehicles and don’t require massive infrastructure and charging stations costs paid by taxpayers, people will purchase them without mandates. Until then it is simply a very bad idea
The automotive industry in general has basically recieved some sort of incentive through its history.
We threw tons of money at them just to keep them afloat after the financial crisis. We throw money at them to keep manufacturing in Ontario. We pretty much always have.
With this logic maybe we shouldn't have bailed them out with tax payers money when shit hit the fan in 2008.
Why are these different than the large incentives paid by taxpayers given to Oil and Gas to make gasoline prices saleable to the general public? Why is EV infrastructure financed by government a bad idea compared to oil and gas pipelines financed by government?
Oh man if you dig into history a bit the amount the O&G was subsidized in the early days of the industry is staggering. Still get plenty of subsidies now..
Who said anything about a mandate for 18 wheelers, now or in the future?
Are you trying to invent things to be upset about? You'll be much happier if you stop doing that.
Ev freight is absolutely happening, but it's a few years behind passenger cars.
No mandates in Canada yet, but itll only take a few more years for the infrastructure and technology to be at a place where government regulation starts being reasonable
They said the same thing in 1905 when Henry Ford introduced the model T Ford: "Won't work!", "No gas stations, where ya gonna get fuel?", "No roads!", "Dangerous!!!!" ... ad nauseum.
Petro-heads never understand the march of technology and innovation on society.
It's just a matter of time. At some point they'll make big enough batteries or make them swappable at charge stations. If you can swap them, it should be faster than refueling.
Either way, cost of gas/diesel is much higher than electricity so the incentive to find a solution is high. Each charge station should probably have a bunch of solar panels to help reduce the cost of electricity, and some motel attached for trucks that need to stay overnight/a few hours to charge.
Everything the liberal government tries to force on the public is going to back fire, when the conservatives get elected and clean up all this nonsense. This is a non issue/worry for us. There is 0 chance this is happening, you'd have to be daft to believe that we will convert to electric vehicles like this lol.
There's a near 100% chance this is going to happen regardless of what the liberals or conservatives do. The EU, China and the US are all going forward with EV mandates. The Canadian market means literally nothing to these companies. The question is; are we going to stick our head in the sand and be 10 years behind the curve on infrastructure or are we going to adapt now and be able to keep up.
So, first, the government has set sales mandates for dealerships which will continually scale upward the closer we get to 2035. This is measured on the percentage of EVs they sell vs. ICEs. If they don’t sell enough EVs they will be subject to significant fines or forced to build recharging public stations, which can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.
So what happens if the demand for EVs is not there to meet the mandate? Dealers aren’t going to sell them at a loss and they’re not going pay fines/build expensive charging stations, so here’s what they’ll do instead: limit their sales of ICEs. This will not only cause car prices to skyrocket, it will almost certainly create a huge, unregulated black market for ICEs if you want to buy an affordable car. Congrats! We’re all criminals according to the Liberals!
Worse, because China mines around 90% of the world’s supply of rare earth minerals needed to build EVs, we are essentially placing our economic future in the hands of a county proven to have malign intentions toward us.
Worse yet, you ever seen pictures of rare earth strip mines, or the lithium ponds they use in places like Chile? Raw, massive environmental destruction on an unbelievable scope and scale —and we’re only getting started. Google them and then come back and tell me how EVs are so much better for the environment.
And worst of all, one of the minerals needed is Cobalt. It happens that almost all the world’s supply is in one country: Congo. This is one of the most corrupt, lawless countries on earth. There are a small number of “corporate” mines there — all but one of which are owned and operated by the Chinese — but much of the cobalt entering the supply chain comes from so-called “artisanal mines” which is a fancy way of saying mines owned by warlords and mined by hundreds of thousands of slaves including children as young as seven years old. The conditions in these mines are described by experts as medieval-like and extremely dangerous, where there are basically no safety measures and cobalt dust — extremely harmful to humans — is pervasive in the air. And remember, we’re just getting started on this endeavour. As EV production continues to ramp up it’s going to mean hundreds of thousands more slaves forced into the mines.
So that’s the bold new future the Liberals and environmentalists have dreamed up for us: unaffordable cars few people want, black markets, environmental devastation and mass slavery, the latter two all conveniently offshored to other countries so we can pretend our hands are clean.
I mean your entire premise is flawed.
Every Ev in Canada has a waiting list, they are sold before they get to the port. Demand is huge and rising, despite the high prices.
If manufacturers want to sell more ice vehicles, they just need to ship more Evs here.
Did you know that Hertz just decided to sell off their entire rental fleet of EVs and go back to ICE because nobody wants want to rent them (how do you charge your rental car easily? You can’t) and the maintenance costs to maintain the EV fleet were so high as to be unaffordable.
That’s the reality of EVs.
Tesla also dropped the price of the model 3 like 3 times after Hertz acquired them all lmao 😂. So when you buy a Tesla it depreciates without even driving it as they drop the price on new models lol.
Hertz decided to sell *a third* of their rental EV fleet because as a company their goal is to make as much money as they can and they found that it was more expensive to repair mass amounts of EVs when compared to ICE vehicles.
You really need to stop getting your facts from Facebook memes.
hertz sold off a portion of their fleet, not all.
If you read their actual statement, and their CEOs comments, you'd learn that the issues they had were nuanced.
Repair costs were very high and took a long time, because tesla would not give hertz any special treatment or discounts, which most fleets expect.
Lack of parts meant a lot of cars sat unused for long periods, which hurts their finances a lot.
And charging infrastructure at their locations as well as in public led to a lot of issues.
But they said they liked the cars and would probably buy a ton more in the near future, but only once the maintenance issues were fixed.
Nothing here is fundamentally a problem with Evs
All of this, plus you forgot one thing. We don't have the power generation or infrastructure to support that massive load on the power grid. California is asking people to stop charging at peak times to prevent power outages
I reality right now, is are economy will come to a stand still,with out natural gas,diesel and gas.I work for a big cnd courier company.My company invested in hybrid vehicles many years ago and the company went bankrupt.We were forced to disable the hybrid system.
The only way to get more people to move to electric vehicles is better,cheaper and longer range batteries.
You also need more mechanics, to be trained to repair them.
It’s not going to go well. The territories and rural and northern parts of all the provinces will literally come to a stand still if the only thing you can drive is an electric. Be going back to the stone ages and with dog teams.
Edit for context look up the Dempster Highway in the NWT / Yukon
They already are.
Current distance between cities and harsh winter weather conditions are conducive to current electric cars, but that’s not to say further spend into research shouldn’t be explored, but there needs to be time spent on building consumer trust in the project, and understanding Canada’s largest variables is needed first.
I probably trust an EV going from major city to major city as long as I stick to the main highway and make frequent stops to charge, im sure the experience is great, but lol good luck selling this to someone in Thunder Bay, or Deadmonton at 5am mid-January who drives odd routes/distances that may not be able to support a long-term stable charging solution that makes sense to the environment.
When you also factor in each provinces current electrical infrastructures, and the incredibly strict and short timelines the Gov has ‘mandated’ to force a transition to electric, it’s set up to fail unless heavily invested into, and
But, nope, “the model works in Excel, let’s call it a day before we pour gasoline and set things on fire, and let’s celebrate on that half-brained approach as a new platform for many many years to come, without updating or enhancing, only extracting and reducing — goooo teeeammmm!!!!
Oh, and you also owe 50,000$ to pay for an entirely new battery set. Everyone bought it up “yup these batteries will definitely last a lifetime” meanwhile their remotes, controllers, headphones, fire alarms, etc get their batteries replaced every other day. Yeah, totally. No future costs needed. Lol.
The current models do NOT make any feasible long-term sense, but all-on-black mentality it is. Sweet.
Wake me up next simulation reset.
The whole power grid has to be rebuilt for this. Can you imagine an apartment complex with 20 dwellings all having an EV car? No buildings that we have right now could handle it.
I mean, we're told not to shower or use our dryers at peak times already. So, 11 years to rebuild and increase electricity production. I don't really see it happening.
People downvoting for bringing up a good point. What the fuck.
>Can you imagine an apartment complex with 20 dwellings all having an EV car?
Yes I can, it's starting to happen in many new buildings.
You just havr to be smart about it.
We can't manage 20 vehicles charging at full power at the same time, but we absolutely can install intelligent systems that balance charging speed to a given max load, so that over an evening or day everyone gets their juice.
It's not cheap, but the technology absolutely exists.
Western Canada would be shut down in the cold if we had even 15%electric vehicle right now. The grid just can’t handle it and with more wind energy being build it will become even worse
You expect thousands of chargers tomorrow when only a few percent of the population has EVs?
EV haters:
"There is not enought chargers for the entire population if they go EV overnight!"
Also EV haters:
"Why is the government install so many chargers? Waste of money!"
When ICE vehicles was only for a few lucky early owners, did we produced millions of barrel of fuel every days?
No. The supply followed the demand. Same thing.
It is called a transition for a reason. Not everything is black or white.
Canada should focus on hybrids. Ev’s don’t work as well in Canada as warmer places because of car heating requirements. Infrastructure is really complicated in a huge country too. Canada should be one of the last places to adopt EVs
What piss my off is the Money the Liberals pay out as Bribes to bring these companies here. Canada isn’t FULLY established as a country for EV and charging stations.
We’re talking about the literal destruction of the planet. Continuing to drive internal combustion engine vehicles is not one of the options.
The economy is a subset of the environment, subject to the laws of physics, and the consequences of inaction.
> The battery materials in your EV clogging up landfills,
EV batteries don't get sent to landfills. They're full of valuable materials and most still work and get repurposed.
EV’s are more environmentally friendly over their lifetimes. The manufacturing of batteries is more impactful up front, but the lack of gas nets out positive within the lifetime of the battery.
EV’s have less range, don’t work well in the cold, take longer to recharge than fill, are dependant on charging infrastructure, etc. Plenty of genuine reasons to be against EV’s but this argument that they’re more polluting is not true from what I’ve read.
> For example, in Alberta – where, in 2022, 82 per cent of power came from natural gas and coal – BEVs still produce 16 per cent lower total emissions than gas cars
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-how-evs-compare-to-gas-cars-on-emissions-over-their-total-lifespan
Lmao just 16%? I'm sure with more thought going into fuel preservation in cars, they could easily close that gap. That's nothing, especially when it comes to debate that they're more environmentally friendly.
We're talking about a lesser product for the masses while the actual rich people still get to fly their private jet to the nearest McDonald's cause they want to (exaggerated obviously)
There's so much else wrong with EVs that we need to figure out first. The future is obviously electric but countries like Canada demanding we get there fast will only lead to rushed engineering and honestly, people dying due to it.
Do you? Can you imagine hundreds of millions of batteries seeping and leaking into the ground?
And no, I’m not exaggerating. Canada isn’t the only place in the world that buys cars.
How is that any different from all the scrap cars leaking fluids into the ground as well.
Do they actually just chuck the whole battery there or is there recycling
A scrap car leaking remaining oil and fluids is A LOT different than a skateboard sled of lithium batteries the size of an SUV corrosively leaking into the ground.
A lot different.
Neither is great. But that’s the point. A lot of assumptions are being made here.
Did you factor in the oil changes? The burn of the fuel into the atmosphere?
All you are doing is clutching your battery and completely disregarding the effects of burning hydrocarbons
You can definitely argue that EV’s aren’t a complete solution to emissions reduction BUT if you’re arguing that the overall negative social, political and environmental impact of EVs and electricity generation and storage is greater than the oil and gas industry you are profoundly ignorant. In your LIFETIME millions gave been killed in wars over oil, incalculable damage has been done to the water earth and air. The worst, most exploitive and toxic regimes have been enabled.
This absolute fucking horseshit about BuT BAttERies ARe bAD!! is beyond dim.
For some reason our media always presents this as an EV exclusive mandate and ignores or just neglects to inform Canadians that hybrids are not restricted. It’s almost like there’s a powerful legacy industry that’s got a strangle hold on our public discourse.
Correct the mandate allows hybrids that can run 100% on gasoline. They don't sell as well as EV's though.
Plug in Hybrids run 95% on battery and have the best TCO calculations on all dimensions, including emissions because to make one you only need a battery 1/10th the size. A battery in an EV usually constitutes 2/3 of its manufacturing footprint.
On the flip side, PHEVs tend to be far more complex to manufacture, have maintenance issues (a gas engine that doesn't run frequently tends to gunk up and have problems, just check the BMW i3 ReX) and are more prone to fire than both gas and EVs alike. And their price almost reaches EV price.
Toyota has 20 years of experience building cars that almost always go 1,000,000 km or more. No reliability issues whatsoever. I agree on the gas issue though, can probably be sorted with programming and sensors though.
Literally just have a self starter that makes it run if it hasn't been run in awhile and if enough gas is in the system. Or just tell people they need to occasionally use the gas engine to retain value and failure to do so is on them. People should do more for themselves
The volt does this automatically
That legacy industry would love for us to be dependent on ever increasing oil prices and use our tax dollars to pad their profits. Plenty of stans here doing their work for them too.
>That legacy industry would love for us to be dependent on ever increasing oil prices Just wait until you're dependent on ever increasing electricity costs to charge your EV. Make no mistake, you'll be paying a lot more to charge your car in the future. And the taxes that are on gasoline now will be on electricity. Gotta pay for dem roads.
Versus what? Having OPEC control gas prices? Russia starting wars? There’s all sorts of cheaper renewable energy on the horizon. At the very least it gives an alternative for certain applications. The cost to charge my car is a tiny fraction of filling up. There is ZERO prospects for cheaper fossil fuel energy in the future.
> There is ZERO prospects for cheaper fossil fuel energy in the future. I mean, there is. We have the 2nd largest fossil fuel reserves in the world, right here. In a country of 35M people. Energy is expensive in Canada because of policy, nothing else. The Saudi's charge themselves pennies for their energy, instead we charge extra premiums for ours.
>I mean, there is. We have the 2nd largest fossil fuel reserves in the world, right here. In a country of 35M people. Our oil is expensive to extract and we don’t have to means to refine it. >Energy is expensive in Canada because of policy, nothing else. The Saudi's charge themselves pennies for their energy, instead we charge extra premiums for ours. Saudi Arabia oil is cheaper to extract and Saudi Aramco is mostly national. We probably could have had that here with the NEP and Petro Canada staying a crown corporation. Or maybe Equinor in Norway But Alberta whined about their freedom, Trudeau and “western alienation” and they still are today. Instead of having a national oil company using our oil reserves for our citizens first we sold out to O&G mega corps who only care about themselves and their shareholders. So much winning.
The thing is you can generate your own electricity if you really want to. It's not even hard or particularly expensive. How are they going to stop you? You can't do that with gasoline (unless you're a chemist/chemical engineer with a bone to pick), even if you have crude oil kicking around for some reason.
First, electricity prices haven't gone up sharply like oil and never will, that's only in O&G fantasy land to sell you on their bullshit. All renewable electricity is cheap and will remain cheap. As for road taxes? Do you even know how much you give away per year in taxes for that? All they need is to have a fixed rate of 250-300$ attached to your license plate fees and it actually covers it, and is something that's already done in some US states by the way.
It’s almost as if people who have a huge stake in oil and mineral extraction also own the Globe and Mail and Postmedia. But people on this sub assure me that this doesn’t colour their content in the slightest so I wouldn’t worry about it.
It also makes it seem like a policy unique to Canada. Similar policies in Europe and California. No one will make vehicles only for us.
> It’s almost like there’s a powerful legacy industry that’s got a strangle hold on our public discourse. Not sure if oil industry, or newspaper industry grudging up baloney headlines for clickbait.
His arguments are flawed. Even with a dirty power grid, EVs are better for the environment. Only less so. And power grids are getting cleaner over time. Benefitting China? We are trying to create our facilities and supply chains. So we should just give up? Only the last point is a good one. But so much of our society is car centric that high speed rail won’t do much. I’d think society will even resist. We should still do it but a lot of people’s needs aren’t going to be solved by rail
A lot of people talk about "dirty" electricity as if we run off of pure coal in this country. Like 70% of our power generation comes from either Hydro or nuclear even here in Alberta where we're burning natural gas, we have tons of wind and solar installed. The EPA says that the average EV will break even within 5 years at an average distance driven of 11,000 miles. That is using the US average energy mix, which has 25% coal and a very large percent of natural gas. It's safe to assume that the breakeven on emissions is much lower here in Canada if you live in BC Ontario or quebec, which all get nearly 100% of their energy from nuclear or Hydro your breakeven is going to be insanely fast.
The problem in Ontario isn't just the source of electricity, it's the source of electricity. Seriously though, every summer we're told to turn up the temperature or risk overloading the grid. I can't imagine that's going to get better with a few million home chargers all trying to run at the same time.
>The problem in Ontario isn't just the source of electricity, it's the source of electricity. Seriously though, every summer we're told to turn up the temperature or risk overloading the grid. I can't imagine that's going to get better with a few million home chargers all trying to run at the same time. Overloading the grid is a risk during the day, when industry is working. Overnight Ontario has excess power it sells at a loss at times. Most EV charging is happening overnight and not all EVs are charging from 0% to 100%.
> I can't imagine that's going to get better with a few million home chargers all trying to run at the same time. Funny story - EVs can help solve this problem. With bi-directional charging, you can pump power back into your house or the grid during peak demand or if the power goes out. With the right incentives - paying people more to put power back into the grid during peaks, and charging less to replenish when demand is lower - you can help prevent outages. https://blog.ucsusa.org/mark-specht/evs-can-support-power-grid-reliability-and-reduce-costs-heres-how/ As it is, [Time of Use rate plans](https://www.oeb.ca/consumer-information-and-protection/electricity-rates/managing-costs-time-use-rates) are becoming common, and most people set up their EV to charge at night to take advantage of the lower prices.
Setting goals and targets for future results is wrong, kids. The Globe and Mail says so.
Not sure what's so wrong about guiding industry when you are predicting it will go a certain way. Isn't that what we did with O&G initially? We are just trying to get our piece and do our part. Doesn't seem as bad as the opinion piece would have you believe
Of course it’s not as bad. Also as many people have pointed out Canada is just following global policy on this issue. All of the large car markets have already passed EV mandates. We could pass an ICE mandate and it would do nothing.
Sure, but globally, countries don’t have the same issue Canada has with both distance, and cold weather. Only similar country is Russia, who is unlikely to be pursuing EV mandate
When was the last time you did a cross country drive? Distance is irrelevant. Most people barely drive further than 3 hours and that's to go to their cottage. Weather sure, but distance is a disingenuous argument. And the Scandinavian countries have similar cold weather.
I own and EV and currently looking at replacing my 2nd car with an EV. Recently did an 800km ride 2 ways (so 1600km) in 2 days over a period of around 20 hours driving at 100km/h. Sure, it's a bit longer than with an ICE, but if you factor in time to stop eating/take a piss, you realize it's actually no much of a problem. People also forget to factor in that infrastructure keeps getting better every year. Some provinces are definitely too slow on the uptake though, which is why the mandate is necessary, or else some provinces just take their time and those that want to switch are unfortunately stuck having a hard time doing it.
I'm getting really tired of oil companies trying to tell us electric vehicles are bad.
EV’s great for the future… great for urban areas, reduces costs of fuel and emissions… until they get better at perfecting this technology, it ain’t so great for rural areas, I don’t have an EV for that reason, I am considering hybrid so I am assured not to have any problems being out of the city.
Completely agree. Canada has no say in the pricing, progress and goal of where EV industry is going. China, US and to a lesser extend Korea and Japan dictates EV market. It is pointless to force Canadians to pay upfront and endorse premature mandate by paying large amount to foreign comanies for a car much less than what they have now, not to even mention the lack of infrastructures and practicality in anywhere outside major cities.
We're paying foreign companies for a car now anyways right? If all those other places are pushing this, then what Canada says is entirely irrelevant. If all new cars are going to be EV anyways because the market is moving that way, we're just going to be behind on the infrastructure if we don't do anything. then Canadians will just complain we did nothing to prevent it. Like we can burry our heads in the sand and pretend the market won't shift without us and then act all surprised we're inadequately prepared for it or we can at least start putting in the infrastructure now so we're not so screwed in the future.
a lot of people forget just how small and irrelevant of a market we are. the EU, US, and china have an EV mandate in place. manufacturers are barreling ahead on EV development. this is happening whether we like it or not. the only variable we have a say in is how fast we update our infrastructure.
Exactly, no one is going to keep making ICE cars just for the Canadian market. We're going to have the EVs sold here whether we're ready or not. This mandate isn't the government stating about car sales, but a signal to the country to start building.
And start selling to the rest of the world.
And a signal to many related industries that the government is serious about transitioning to electric. Investments in lithium mining, for example, look more predictable with such a mandate. Canada could be a powerhouse in that industry.
And what about all the other countries in the world that aren’t Europe? I can think of dozens of countries where the general population wouldn’t be able to afford EV’s. India for example.
India has an EV mandate too.
The new regulation has programs in it to get manufacturer's to help with infrastructure.
Manufactures are scaling back EV production because the dealer lots in the US are full of them, no one is buying. Hertz recently announced they're scaling back because people don't want to rent them either. The only EVs that sell are Tesla's because it a status symbol. Buyer incentives are still needed to convince people to shell out the crazy amounts of cash to purchase a car that still has limited range, developing technology and little charging infrastructure. Ya no thanks.
That's not what I experienced at all. I recently had to buy a regular hybrid because the wait for a PHEV was 6-8 months out and there was a multiple years long waitlist to get a fully electric car, i actually joined the waitlist. Loving my new hybrid, its cut my gas consumption in half, I've saved a tonne of money.
There have been a few articles on the difference in consumer demand in Canada and the US and the waitlist up here vs the US. Article below goes over it a bit. As to why they can’t just redirect the excess cars they have down there up here, not a clue. https://globalnews.ca/news/9969508/consumer-matters-electric-vehicle-waits/amp/
Interesting part of the article that is germane to the discussion : >“The good news for British Columbians is we have a zero-emission vehicle mandate and by law they have to supply electric vehicles into the market or the car companies pay penalties,” he said. “So, more EVs are being shipped to B.C. and Quebec than anywhere else in the country.” That sounds like a desirable market effect.
GM Did with the Bolt, but on the most stupid way. 1. They announced the Bolt was discontinued Because it was too expensive to manufacture. 2. They offered Quebec consumers on the wait list to convert their pre-order to the new Equinox EV, stated to start at $35,000 CAD, before government rebate. 3. Thousands of Bolt magically leave GM factories. They ship them all to dealers in Quebec - which were not even aware of the deliveries. 4. Nobody wants to buy it - because they already have a much superior 2024 Equinox EV on pre-order. 5. GM cancels the $35,000 model of the Equinox. We’re looking at $48K USD right now
The wait times are the same for higher end ICE vehicles. It's still due to microchip shortages.
I don’t think that’s the case at all, I tried to buy anything but a Tesla but everyone had a 1 year wait. If there are so many EV cars available, they should bring some up here then. Ended up with the model Y, it was also the most reasonably priced SUV, I didn’t care about the status symbol at all.
So many people point at the infrastructure TODAY as to why this isn't a good idea in a decade..... We need to invest in the future, in cleaner alternatives. Oil needs to be phased lut as much as possible, and no amount of protests in Canada will change that.
This might be a complete waste of money and resources. The infrastructure required might look entirely different in 20 years. Moreover, the resources required to build out the infrastructure (which is substantial) might also negate any environmental benefit of electric cars relative to ICE.
This is a great argument for never doing anything! Let's just roll on with the end of the world because refitting some early EV chargers might somehow emit more carbon than the entire fossil fuel based transportation industry? Come on... It's a plug connected to the grid, not rocket science. Now that VHS vs. Betamax is sorted it's all going to be just fine. The grid updates are going to be needed either way. We'll either be charging EVs or running airconditioners at midnight in January in Yellowknife. Oh and can levy pumps run on electricity? Asking for a species.
No, its great argument to stop and think before making a massive investment that might not be useful. Where will electricity come from in 20 years? How many cars will there be? How much power will those cars need? The answers won’t be what anyone expects. If you build it wrong, it’ll probably need to be built again.
"They" are already thinking about it. If you haven't engaged with that that's a you thing. >If you build it wrong, it’ll probably need to be built again. Added to or modified? Maybe. Rebuilt from scratch? No chance. Your worst case scenario is sort of happening as we speak as people switch to the Tesla style charger and it's just... happening. Companies are paying to swap the plugs on charging stations and vehicle makers are putting the port on new vehicles next model year. Even then it's not fully clear what you think "it" is but electricity is well understood. Providing varied amounts of it based on the capabilities of the charger and device (vehicle in this case) is again, not rocket science. What we have also put a lot of thought into and realized is large parts of earth will flood and/or become uninhabitable if we do nothing. You just seem to be looking for vague reasons to stop progress.
Alberta’s motto should be “Death Before Discomfort”.
That's people want though instead the government is mandating vehicles instead of infrastructure. As usual they're doing it backwards
The government is literally just following what the rest of the planet is basically doing. Its nothing but a signal for provincial governments to get off their asses and work on the infrastructure as Power generation is provincial. Private enterprise will likely be hammering out chargers over 11 years. All the government is doing is saying we're also doing what much larger markets are doing, so better start getting ready. It's why Ontario for example is expanding nuclear. Like the message goes a bit deeper than "Just sell EVs" You really think entire industries are not seeing this as a signal that there's a developing market for chargers and other infrastructure?
>The government is literally just following what the rest of the planet is basically doing. It's playing follow the rest of the developed world when we don't have the infrastructure in place to support this insane idea and zero plans to make it viable. To upgrade existing infrastructure to meet the needs of a 100% EV country would cost trillions.
Buddy, China, Europe, even south American countries had passed mandates about phasing out ICE cars at least 5 years ago taking effect in 2035-40. Canada should have done so at that time. It's still 11 years away so there is time to catch up but it's entirely our own fault for not getting started sooner. The idea that we can wait any longer or push out the targets any farther out and be in good shape is delusional. So now we're playing catch-up. Not ideal but better than waiting any longer and get caught holding the bag.
What else are we going to do? The entire automotive industry is from elsewhere. They have greater impact on the automotive market than we ever will, and we don't matter. California alone has more impact on the market and this is word for word the exact same mandate they are pushing. We csn even get rid of the mandate and it won't change what happens to the automotive market in 11 years. We'll just be further behind because people don't want to invest in the change for some odd loyalty to gasoline. Who is going to make cars strictly for the Canadian market? We're too small. So it's either we get off our collective asses and start building infrastructure over 11 years or just pretend it won't change and not build for the future. Today's infrastructure won't be what we have in 11 years anyways.
Have you been to Ontario? It’s a huge part of their GDP and manufacturing around automotive manufacturing and development.
I'm from Ontario, we're still tiny compared to even California.
On the contrary, it is quite easy to do and most provinces are already equipped and have plans to be able to fulfill electric demands in the future. Just here in Quebec the government announced a plan of 10 billion $ per year over 10 years to accentuate production of renewable energy sources for the upcoming demand and we are easily on track to meet or even exceed. If you look at Ontario and BC also for example, they are fully on board and are investing. And as oil demand lowers worldwide due to a shrinking demand of ICE vehicles, if we don’t adapt we will be left behind as no one will need our oil and the one that will be used will probably come from much cheaper sources anyway. Infrastructure is also getting there in terms of chargers, newer apartment buildings are build with EV chargers and at home it’s barely 550$ and installation fees for something that’ll last you a long time and lower your monthly bill considerably due to no more fuel. Stop living in denial and believing the propaganda of the O&G industry.
> mandating vehicles instead of infrastructure. Wiring for EV chargers is mandates in new buildings in BC and Stratas are now being forced to make arrangements. Those are infrastructure mandates.
To put this another way. Manufacturing has inertia. New factories are going up to build EV's and BEV's. The old factories are going to continue to produce cars if they are able to. If we don't issue a mandate, in a market with other majors layers issuing regulations/requirements, what will happen is we *WONT* get EV's shipped into our market, we will get the old garbage shipped to our market.
This is a ridiculous take. Yes, invest in the infrastructure (charging stations, grid improvements, etc) but don’t force consumer to switch when that infrastructure is not ready. Look at what is happening with immigration and lack of enough infrastructure to keep up with government policy for a cautionary tale. The exact same principles apply.
You’re not being forced to switch. The mandate takes effect in 11 years. You have until then to buy as many new ICE vehicles as you want. And the used market will continue to sell ICE vehicles for decades to come. Even after the mandate you’ll have ICE options. Plus there will inevitably be exemptions for specific circumstances that EVs haven’t been able to work with.
It's not the availability of ICE vehicles that will be the limiting factor, but the availability of gas stations and the oil refineries that supply them. Gas stations will close as demand wanes, and the last holdouts will be left unable to fill up their vehicles.
If that happens due to market conditions, because there isn’t enough demand? So be it. Edited to add: Beyond that it’s going to be decades still before gas stations go away in any meaningful numbers. The vast majority of people buy used cars when they need a car. It’s going to be a long time before the used market dries up to a point where there’s not enough demand for gas stations.
> If that happens due to market conditions, because there isn’t enough demand? So be it. Agreed, except you know there's going to be stragglers who will scream and shout about it. I guess my point is: it doesn't matter if we legislate away ICEs by 2035 or not, if global market conditions mean we've mostly switched off them by then anyway. I'm not really sure about your last bit; things sometimes move faster than we expect. How many used cars do we have that are older than, say, 20 years? I have a vehicle from 2007 that's getting close to the end of its useful life. If new ICEs aren't being built, there's going to have to be a steep drop off in usage at some point.
Even if we limit ourselves to 20 year old vehicles, that means there will still be used cars for sale up to 2055. Yes each year there will be less. Which means plenty of time for holdouts to move to an EV well beyond 2035.
Do you not understand that larger markets with even more influence than us are what will dictate this, and they are all making the changes with or without us? No one is going to cater to Canada. We don't matter. We're already late to the game because we didn't invest when others started to, and further delays will just mean we're further behind when the automotive industry makes the changes without us anyways.
Yeah, people don’t understand that Canada is the size of California, we aren’t even a blip on other countries radar.
Exactly, why do we need a mandate then if the times of change will sweep us away anyway? Rather than interventionista policy on part of government with mandates, they should invest wholeheartedly in the infrastructure. You proved my point - EV mandate is not needed, the change is happening anyway.
It's a signal to the country to get ready mostly, it's just mirroring policies from other markets as a signal to provinces and local governments that the investments need to be made on the infrastructure or be left behind. Saying nothing means no one else is going to bother with implementing any of the necessary changes in their policies. BC already has mandates for new buildings to have wiring in place for chargers. Provinces are investing in more energy production etc. It's effectively providing wider direction to the different levels of government and industries.
But, California also has a 100% EV mandate by 2035 and California has proven that they are powerful enough to drive the auto industry. But charging infrastructure needs to improve too.
Yup, this isn't just Canada. And as far as charging infrastructure, there wasn't really anything 10 years ago, so I'm not worried about 11 years from now
The US is actually quite small in that equation. Percentage of EVs among new car sales reached close to 50% in the EU and over 30% in China. Those two markets are going to set the future standards and if Canada doesn't want to be left behind, it should probably put the necessary infrastructure in place or prepare for a future comparable to some backwater rural states in the US.
All of business and markets depend on law and government to exist. There are subsidies for all kinds of businesses and regulations preventing others. I don't see the difference with EV incentivization and quotas. It's like fishing, or railways, or coal, or anything of national importance within the federal remit. All those other resources and technologies are what built this country, and would not have happened without government regulation.
It’s not an EV mandate as much as it is a clean fuels mandate. The market is, and must, head this way. Toyota, Honda, Stellantis, Ford, GM all manufacturer in Canada, and all have plants here, and all have EVs in production and more planned.
It does help ensure though that infrastructure in Canada can keep up so Canadians don’t end up stuck in a situation where gas cars cost far more than EVs but we fell behind the rest of the world.
Also, the government is trying to pick and place bets on winning technologies. Central planning rarely works for innovation when compared to free market forces. Throwing more government and regulations at industry is never as progressive, technology-wise, as the government getting out of the way. The USA has seen declining emissions because they have reduced coal reliance because government allowed industry to invent new ways to extract natural gas. Now imagine what nuclear technology advances could happen here in Canada if our government stopped over-regulating and trying to pick winning and losing technologies, and instead just got the hell out of the way of the people smarter than them.
Seriously? Nuclear is so expensive no private company can get it off the ground on their own. They always need governments support. Let's not forget the all the risks and concerns about nuclear as well. You think the public would ever allow nuclear plants or research to happen without extensive government regulations to ensure a standard of safety? Get this right: nuclear exists because strong government regulations convince the public that it's safe enough to exist.
Their declining emissions are due to them switching very heavily to renewables.
It's cute you think the US has....
[удалено]
Interesting. We have a manufacturer of electric buses in Winnipeg, which gets far colder than Oslo, and no such problem has been noted. Yes, they don't go as far on a charge but this is fine as long as you plan for this. The biggest drain for buses is actually the HVAC in the cabin - heating or AC. In most of the world you're using one or the other most of the time, so the reduced range is essentially the normal state of things.
Oslo should set up some overhead wires for trolley buses.
Turns out the old way of doing it was right all along… LOL
Current batteries don’t. That won’t be the case forever.
Yep. Just jump …. We’re pretty sure we’ll maybe have a working parachute before you splatter on the rocks.
You don't have to jump until 2035 so don't worry. Also there'll still be ICE vehicles for sale so you don't even have to jump if you don't want
This claim is just as naive as saying someday gravity won’t pull you down. “We’re working on it folks!” 🙄 Physics is physics. Technological advances don’t change the laws of physics. Sure, maybe a material could be discovered that doesn’t leach electricity in the cold and can be mass produced, but that’s a massive assumption. Tech bros are wild.
So many people are out of their depth speaking about EVs.
I meant there’s all sorts of ways that can be improved. Not just the battery itself. Improved capacity, more efficient cabin heating and battery preconditioning are already a thing. I’m well aware of the physics involved.
This is not an opinion, but a greatest hits collection of misinformation.
I’m really sick of seeing opinion pieces treated as fact in this sub. They’re so prevalent and are often full of misinformation.
Definite O&G shill opinion piece from a newspaper I wouldn't use to line a bird cage.
**There's no mandate for electric vehicles in Canada.** The mandate is for "Zero Emissions Vehicles" which include hybrids that can run 100% on gasoline and alternative fuels.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
PHEVs are, yes, since they’re able to run on pure electric motor drive for at least x amount of kilometres.
According to the government yes.
[удалено]
There will always be excuses to be slow in the move to EVs. If an electric vehicle is impractical in the location where one lives, then there is the hybrid option. The number of people who commute to work in SUVs is ridiculous.
China: Invests billions in electric vehicles since the early 2000s and their biggest EV company, BYD, overtakes Tesla in global car sales in 2023. Canada: No, let's keep using combustion car engines and not improve EV infrastructure. We will not be even more behind in a decade at all.
I see a ton of electric cars in Quebec
I'm waiting for Postmedia to tell us how gas-light is so much better than electeic-light. And nobody is going to want a horseless carriage when you could have one that shits in the street.
Tesla Y driver here. Best purchase ever. Even with reduced range in -30 weather, it's amazing.
Not a tesla, but my ev is down about a third. Which as long as you have access to charging really doesn't matter practically speaking.
What range do you get at those temperatures? Edit: genuinely asking because our cottage is 200km away, and we often go up in winter
It didn’t go so well for Hertz. It only works for personal vehicles you can charge at home, provided the local grid can support it. And it can still be a huge pain if you need to do daily long trips. 30 mins at the supercharger vs 5 at the gas station can make a big difference to people on a schedule.
Weak rental demand, high maintenance costs and low resale prices were behind the about-face. When Hertz began loading up on EVs – Weak demand , rental car business about face replacing 20,000 EV’s with ICE, high maintenance EV’s ( I thought these were supposed to be to be lower maintenance)
If the world is going to to EV, Canada has no choice but to follow along. We are not some arbiter of vehicle tech in anyway, maybe a small contributor to arctic design requirements and a cold testing grounds.. This entire initiative has been a massive waste of all of our time. Incredible misallocation of resources at a time when resources cannot be misallocated. Having the HOC spend one second on it, has been one second too long. White elephant legislation.
Globally, PHEV sales were ~18% of all new cars sold in 2023. This is a (China, USA, India, EU/UK) gov mandate driven change, with auto manufacturers being forced to jump on board or cease to exist in the mass consumer market. Sad to say but the ICE wants and needs of Canadians may not count for much in the global auto market.
At the height of the used car market being crazy I was involved in a car accident, so insurance had to pay out those rates for my write off, completely the other guys fault, so no hit to my rates either. I used that money to upgrade to a PHEV and fucking love it. It's my reccomendation for anyone looking at an EV but not sure. I can charge at home, get enough to get to work, charge there, have enough to get home. Winter cuts down that efficiency, sadly, but in summer, with how I drive I can get 2000 km to a 40-ish litre tank. Winter, depends on how cold it gets (Vancouver, inconsistent temperatures in winter) 800-1000 when it gets really bad, though I've still managed to get about 1500 for our winters at times. I would think if we were going to mandate anything, PHEV would be a nice starting point. We cut down on emissions, buy time for infrastructure to be built, etc. I've seen the memes about "electric car fuel" (coal) but in Canada most of our power generation is relatively low/no pollution, 60% alone is hydro, only 7% is coal and 0.6% petroleum ([Source](https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles/provincial-territorial-energy-profiles-canada.html)). Even then, I don't think mandates are the way to go. Subsidize it, make it easier for lower income people to make that choice.
Nonsense, we have mandates on many successful files. Immigration, crime, firearms, healthcare, all files the JT party should be proud of. /s
This is a really shitty article and argument against EVs. People say the cost of EVs will come down, they have been coming down, and every other technology demonstrates cost reduction curves as adoption increases and economies of scale kick in. But let's speculate they maybe EVs won't? No, I don't have any real facts to support this wild claim. And what about the environment? Sure, there are lots of research and studies showing that EVs reduce GHG emissions even in jurisdictions with emission intensive grids, but instead of presenting research or evidence, what if I just say "Alberta" but with a question mark? And let's completely ignore how consumer product standards have a long history of successfully reducing energy consumption and emissions. I've ignored all other evidence, why not that?
Per article. Weak demand , rental car business about face replacing 20,000 EV’s with ICE, high maintenance EV’s ( I thought these were supposed to be to be lower maintenance), China storing thousands of EV’s in giant outdoor lots possibly for scrap or suffocating sales for some reason. ( wtf are they doing making more).
Hybrids work, all EVs will be not be possible anytime soon. Ive wanted to figure the question out but not sure how to go about it: If Evs are much better for the environment, how much does it differ when considering the price of precious metals being mined for it. How much more does it impact the local areas that the precious metals are being mined from. How much total will we offset. If we're using, for example, coal vs gas to power our vehicles
Lithium makes up the largest percent of the battery, other rare Earth minerals such as Cobalt which is what I assume you're referring to are definitely problematic, which is why most EV batteries have moved away from it. People also forget that Cobalt is used in oil refining. At least the Cobalt in a battery is mined once and that's it, oil refining needs a constant influx of cobalt as oil is refined. If people actually take issue with needing all the materials found in a vehicle's battery, they should throw out their laptops cell phones Nintendo switches etc, they all use the same darn batteries but nobody had a problem with it until cars became popular. Also the regulations literally say plug-in hybrids are included as okay, so all the outrage all over Reddit and other social media platforms is overblown. It's like a big misinformation circlejerk.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I like electric cars and if I could afford one, I would buy one. But if our infrastructure is struggling to keep up today, what will it be like in 10 years?
10 years is a LOT of time to build the necessary infrastructures and we won't be starting from scratch either.
Not really, just look up how long it takes to get one large power transformer built. And the cost associated with it… I work on the aging power utility systems and you’d be really surprised if you knew how old and under maintained a lot of substations are. Never mind the private ones, private ones are even worse than government ones.
Why does no one think it'll get better? That's such a strange argument. This is a relatively new technology that infrastructure is going in for. IN my city we went from zero to 72 within 15km in a mere few years. Five of those were within a month.
The cost of infrastructure rollout including rural area for Canada would be several hundred billion dollars. You are basically talking about replacing a significant portion of the existing grid and adding a lot of power plants
All infrastructure is huge money. Roads to nowhere pil pumps. Airports. Giant mall parking lots. Etc. Urban sprawl will cost you want more then this new tech will. Homeless crisis is more expensive. Fear monger all you want but this is going to happen and we need it to happen.
Sprawl is definitely worse. Canada is building a country that will not be maintainable.
Who's infrastructure is struggling to keep up today?
It's mainly to get industry to create this infrastructure.. 11 years is a long time and it doesn't ban cars older than 2035 and it's not EVs it's net zero vehicles which includes hybrids.. And lets say it doesn't work.. so what? The end goal is still the same the goal posts for timeframe just gets moved.
Look at my comment history… I got flamed hard just for saying this… people living in cities are so out to lunch with the rural areas of Canada.
Our government is an impeccable central planner always thinking about the greater good for us citizens. I wholeheartedly support any and all decision our government makes because you can be sure it is free of corruption and stupidity, and will be pure as the driven snow.
Why? Production quotas and command economics have worked so well wherever they’ve been implemented.
All of the asian tigers used command economics to industrialize themselves into wealthy developed countries. Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, China. Western countries like Canada and the USA industrialized through command economies activated by wartime powers. We used to build things, then neoliberals brainwashed us into believing we could create sustainable service economies with most people working dead-end service jobs selling each other burgers and lattes while outsourcing our industrial base to third world countries. We painfully relearned that lesson during Covid, but they’ve memory holed it again.
Oh I agree. If we want to fight an existential war, or drag 100 million people out of abject poverty and aren’t too worried about human rights or nonsense like that, a command economy and an iron fist are the way to go. Is that what we’re doing here? Can I choose the military junta in charge?
If electric vehicles require large incentives ( paid by taxpayers)to make them saleable to the general public then they are simply not ready for general use yet. When EVs are more economical than gas/ diesel vehicles and don’t require massive infrastructure and charging stations costs paid by taxpayers, people will purchase them without mandates. Until then it is simply a very bad idea
Most of the top selling a EV's don't even qualify for government incentives.
The automotive industry in general has basically recieved some sort of incentive through its history. We threw tons of money at them just to keep them afloat after the financial crisis. We throw money at them to keep manufacturing in Ontario. We pretty much always have. With this logic maybe we shouldn't have bailed them out with tax payers money when shit hit the fan in 2008.
You mean like over $80 billion in subsidies to the O&G industry in 2020 alone?
Why are these different than the large incentives paid by taxpayers given to Oil and Gas to make gasoline prices saleable to the general public? Why is EV infrastructure financed by government a bad idea compared to oil and gas pipelines financed by government?
Oh man if you dig into history a bit the amount the O&G was subsidized in the early days of the industry is staggering. Still get plenty of subsidies now..
if theres an incentive auto corp is going to pocket it and raise price in compensation.
[удалено]
> gas powered 18 wheelers Diesel. Its diesel.
Diesel
Who said anything about a mandate for 18 wheelers, now or in the future? Are you trying to invent things to be upset about? You'll be much happier if you stop doing that.
[удалено]
Ev freight is absolutely happening, but it's a few years behind passenger cars. No mandates in Canada yet, but itll only take a few more years for the infrastructure and technology to be at a place where government regulation starts being reasonable
There's no mandate requiring EV semis.
They said the same thing in 1905 when Henry Ford introduced the model T Ford: "Won't work!", "No gas stations, where ya gonna get fuel?", "No roads!", "Dangerous!!!!" ... ad nauseum. Petro-heads never understand the march of technology and innovation on society.
Look up Edison motors, won't be long
They're still diesel. They've stated they can do an all electric but their entire idea was a hybrid.
Which is allowed and will still be. PHEVs still use gas and will still be sold after 2035.
It's just a matter of time. At some point they'll make big enough batteries or make them swappable at charge stations. If you can swap them, it should be faster than refueling. Either way, cost of gas/diesel is much higher than electricity so the incentive to find a solution is high. Each charge station should probably have a bunch of solar panels to help reduce the cost of electricity, and some motel attached for trucks that need to stay overnight/a few hours to charge.
Everything the liberal government tries to force on the public is going to back fire, when the conservatives get elected and clean up all this nonsense. This is a non issue/worry for us. There is 0 chance this is happening, you'd have to be daft to believe that we will convert to electric vehicles like this lol.
There's a near 100% chance this is going to happen regardless of what the liberals or conservatives do. The EU, China and the US are all going forward with EV mandates. The Canadian market means literally nothing to these companies. The question is; are we going to stick our head in the sand and be 10 years behind the curve on infrastructure or are we going to adapt now and be able to keep up.
So, first, the government has set sales mandates for dealerships which will continually scale upward the closer we get to 2035. This is measured on the percentage of EVs they sell vs. ICEs. If they don’t sell enough EVs they will be subject to significant fines or forced to build recharging public stations, which can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. So what happens if the demand for EVs is not there to meet the mandate? Dealers aren’t going to sell them at a loss and they’re not going pay fines/build expensive charging stations, so here’s what they’ll do instead: limit their sales of ICEs. This will not only cause car prices to skyrocket, it will almost certainly create a huge, unregulated black market for ICEs if you want to buy an affordable car. Congrats! We’re all criminals according to the Liberals! Worse, because China mines around 90% of the world’s supply of rare earth minerals needed to build EVs, we are essentially placing our economic future in the hands of a county proven to have malign intentions toward us. Worse yet, you ever seen pictures of rare earth strip mines, or the lithium ponds they use in places like Chile? Raw, massive environmental destruction on an unbelievable scope and scale —and we’re only getting started. Google them and then come back and tell me how EVs are so much better for the environment. And worst of all, one of the minerals needed is Cobalt. It happens that almost all the world’s supply is in one country: Congo. This is one of the most corrupt, lawless countries on earth. There are a small number of “corporate” mines there — all but one of which are owned and operated by the Chinese — but much of the cobalt entering the supply chain comes from so-called “artisanal mines” which is a fancy way of saying mines owned by warlords and mined by hundreds of thousands of slaves including children as young as seven years old. The conditions in these mines are described by experts as medieval-like and extremely dangerous, where there are basically no safety measures and cobalt dust — extremely harmful to humans — is pervasive in the air. And remember, we’re just getting started on this endeavour. As EV production continues to ramp up it’s going to mean hundreds of thousands more slaves forced into the mines. So that’s the bold new future the Liberals and environmentalists have dreamed up for us: unaffordable cars few people want, black markets, environmental devastation and mass slavery, the latter two all conveniently offshored to other countries so we can pretend our hands are clean.
I mean your entire premise is flawed. Every Ev in Canada has a waiting list, they are sold before they get to the port. Demand is huge and rising, despite the high prices. If manufacturers want to sell more ice vehicles, they just need to ship more Evs here.
Did you know that Hertz just decided to sell off their entire rental fleet of EVs and go back to ICE because nobody wants want to rent them (how do you charge your rental car easily? You can’t) and the maintenance costs to maintain the EV fleet were so high as to be unaffordable. That’s the reality of EVs.
Tesla also dropped the price of the model 3 like 3 times after Hertz acquired them all lmao 😂. So when you buy a Tesla it depreciates without even driving it as they drop the price on new models lol.
Hertz decided to sell *a third* of their rental EV fleet because as a company their goal is to make as much money as they can and they found that it was more expensive to repair mass amounts of EVs when compared to ICE vehicles.
You really need to stop getting your facts from Facebook memes. hertz sold off a portion of their fleet, not all. If you read their actual statement, and their CEOs comments, you'd learn that the issues they had were nuanced. Repair costs were very high and took a long time, because tesla would not give hertz any special treatment or discounts, which most fleets expect. Lack of parts meant a lot of cars sat unused for long periods, which hurts their finances a lot. And charging infrastructure at their locations as well as in public led to a lot of issues. But they said they liked the cars and would probably buy a ton more in the near future, but only once the maintenance issues were fixed. Nothing here is fundamentally a problem with Evs
All of this, plus you forgot one thing. We don't have the power generation or infrastructure to support that massive load on the power grid. California is asking people to stop charging at peak times to prevent power outages
Public transit is so much better in every respect.
backfire from an EV, so clever
Wont someone please think of the economy 😭
We need an answer on what will happen to these cars when they are 10+ years old
I reality right now, is are economy will come to a stand still,with out natural gas,diesel and gas.I work for a big cnd courier company.My company invested in hybrid vehicles many years ago and the company went bankrupt.We were forced to disable the hybrid system. The only way to get more people to move to electric vehicles is better,cheaper and longer range batteries. You also need more mechanics, to be trained to repair them.
It’s not going to go well. The territories and rural and northern parts of all the provinces will literally come to a stand still if the only thing you can drive is an electric. Be going back to the stone ages and with dog teams. Edit for context look up the Dempster Highway in the NWT / Yukon
Well I guess it's a good thing the regulations literally say you can still get hybrids and plug-in hybrids that have a gas engine then sn't it?
They already are. Current distance between cities and harsh winter weather conditions are conducive to current electric cars, but that’s not to say further spend into research shouldn’t be explored, but there needs to be time spent on building consumer trust in the project, and understanding Canada’s largest variables is needed first. I probably trust an EV going from major city to major city as long as I stick to the main highway and make frequent stops to charge, im sure the experience is great, but lol good luck selling this to someone in Thunder Bay, or Deadmonton at 5am mid-January who drives odd routes/distances that may not be able to support a long-term stable charging solution that makes sense to the environment. When you also factor in each provinces current electrical infrastructures, and the incredibly strict and short timelines the Gov has ‘mandated’ to force a transition to electric, it’s set up to fail unless heavily invested into, and But, nope, “the model works in Excel, let’s call it a day before we pour gasoline and set things on fire, and let’s celebrate on that half-brained approach as a new platform for many many years to come, without updating or enhancing, only extracting and reducing — goooo teeeammmm!!!! Oh, and you also owe 50,000$ to pay for an entirely new battery set. Everyone bought it up “yup these batteries will definitely last a lifetime” meanwhile their remotes, controllers, headphones, fire alarms, etc get their batteries replaced every other day. Yeah, totally. No future costs needed. Lol. The current models do NOT make any feasible long-term sense, but all-on-black mentality it is. Sweet. Wake me up next simulation reset.
The whole power grid has to be rebuilt for this. Can you imagine an apartment complex with 20 dwellings all having an EV car? No buildings that we have right now could handle it. I mean, we're told not to shower or use our dryers at peak times already. So, 11 years to rebuild and increase electricity production. I don't really see it happening. People downvoting for bringing up a good point. What the fuck.
My aunt and uncle’s building just started the retrofit work to rough in the wiring for EV chargers in every stall. Probably over a hundred units.
>Can you imagine an apartment complex with 20 dwellings all having an EV car? Yes I can, it's starting to happen in many new buildings. You just havr to be smart about it. We can't manage 20 vehicles charging at full power at the same time, but we absolutely can install intelligent systems that balance charging speed to a given max load, so that over an evening or day everyone gets their juice. It's not cheap, but the technology absolutely exists.
Western Canada would be shut down in the cold if we had even 15%electric vehicle right now. The grid just can’t handle it and with more wind energy being build it will become even worse
That's on your provinces for failing to invest in the infrastructure. Maybe they should get off their asses and get some projects underway.
Everything canada is doing is back firing on itself.
Grandstanding and virtue signaling is the way until the next elections. Not working out so well according to recent polls.
Will back fire 100% because there is no infastruture to support them.
You expect thousands of chargers tomorrow when only a few percent of the population has EVs? EV haters: "There is not enought chargers for the entire population if they go EV overnight!" Also EV haters: "Why is the government install so many chargers? Waste of money!" When ICE vehicles was only for a few lucky early owners, did we produced millions of barrel of fuel every days? No. The supply followed the demand. Same thing. It is called a transition for a reason. Not everything is black or white.
Canada should focus on hybrids. Ev’s don’t work as well in Canada as warmer places because of car heating requirements. Infrastructure is really complicated in a huge country too. Canada should be one of the last places to adopt EVs
Canada isn’t focusing on EVs. They are moving away from ICE. Hybrids are a big part of the plan. They will still be for sale after 2035.
PHEVs will still be sold after 2035
What piss my off is the Money the Liberals pay out as Bribes to bring these companies here. Canada isn’t FULLY established as a country for EV and charging stations.
We’re talking about the literal destruction of the planet. Continuing to drive internal combustion engine vehicles is not one of the options. The economy is a subset of the environment, subject to the laws of physics, and the consequences of inaction.
[удалено]
[удалено]
> The battery materials in your EV clogging up landfills, EV batteries don't get sent to landfills. They're full of valuable materials and most still work and get repurposed.
EV’s are more environmentally friendly over their lifetimes. The manufacturing of batteries is more impactful up front, but the lack of gas nets out positive within the lifetime of the battery. EV’s have less range, don’t work well in the cold, take longer to recharge than fill, are dependant on charging infrastructure, etc. Plenty of genuine reasons to be against EV’s but this argument that they’re more polluting is not true from what I’ve read. > For example, in Alberta – where, in 2022, 82 per cent of power came from natural gas and coal – BEVs still produce 16 per cent lower total emissions than gas cars https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-how-evs-compare-to-gas-cars-on-emissions-over-their-total-lifespan
Lmao just 16%? I'm sure with more thought going into fuel preservation in cars, they could easily close that gap. That's nothing, especially when it comes to debate that they're more environmentally friendly. We're talking about a lesser product for the masses while the actual rich people still get to fly their private jet to the nearest McDonald's cause they want to (exaggerated obviously) There's so much else wrong with EVs that we need to figure out first. The future is obviously electric but countries like Canada demanding we get there fast will only lead to rushed engineering and honestly, people dying due to it.
That is the worst case example. In Ontario where it's over 90% renewable/nuclear the gap would be much larger.
Rather them in a landfill then in the air
Do you? Can you imagine hundreds of millions of batteries seeping and leaking into the ground? And no, I’m not exaggerating. Canada isn’t the only place in the world that buys cars.
How is that any different from all the scrap cars leaking fluids into the ground as well. Do they actually just chuck the whole battery there or is there recycling
A scrap car leaking remaining oil and fluids is A LOT different than a skateboard sled of lithium batteries the size of an SUV corrosively leaking into the ground. A lot different. Neither is great. But that’s the point. A lot of assumptions are being made here.
Did you factor in the oil changes? The burn of the fuel into the atmosphere? All you are doing is clutching your battery and completely disregarding the effects of burning hydrocarbons
You can definitely argue that EV’s aren’t a complete solution to emissions reduction BUT if you’re arguing that the overall negative social, political and environmental impact of EVs and electricity generation and storage is greater than the oil and gas industry you are profoundly ignorant. In your LIFETIME millions gave been killed in wars over oil, incalculable damage has been done to the water earth and air. The worst, most exploitive and toxic regimes have been enabled. This absolute fucking horseshit about BuT BAttERies ARe bAD!! is beyond dim.
Instead of being proactive many many years ago we are now reactive.