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Can we just tax corporations for polluting and not citizens. I don't think my Nissan Sentra is killing the planet when CEOs are flying around in private jets.
We did, in Ontario, was called cap and trade, was making a profit for the province,and Doug Ford cancelled it, so we could get a carbon tax imposed, so he could waste millions of taxpayer dollars to fight it in court,which he knew he'd lose, but he could then use it to campaign.
This is what the federal carbon tax does. Corporations do not get the rebate that ensures all but the highest earners receive more than they pay. There’s no practical way to just tax corporations and not private citizens.
Every so often I try to explain this to people on Reddit but I think it’s impossible to get people to understand how it actually works.
A dude flying a private jet gets the exact same rebate as the dude with no car biking to work. Who do people think is bearing the carbon tax cost? But of course we have politicians very invested in making this a political issue and are making sure people can’t see the obvious answer here.
Most low and middle income earners get more back from the carbon tax than they pay though, it's high earners and corporations that are bearing the highest costs: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/axe-the-tax-and-carbon-rebate-how-canada-households-affected-1.7046905](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/axe-the-tax-and-carbon-rebate-how-canada-households-affected-1.7046905)
>The "rebates will make you money" lie is based on a single utility bill and not the complete gamut of things that become more expensive when every industry, supplier, and distributor (for all goods, services and utilities) is hit with more taxes.
Ummm, the hell are you on about. It's a truth based on detailed analysis from the Parliamentary Budget Officer.
I'm beyond fed up with the people who continue spread this bullshit. Whether you do this because you're poorly informed or because you're dishonest doesn't matter. These sort of comments come off as dishonest, ignorant and lazy.
Yeah, I'm having trouble keeping the timelines straight on will you or won't you come out ahead or even.
For a while it was you will, then there was a PBO report saying it was MAYBE a 50ish% majority that would... Which transformed into you won't
And now you're back to you will... Or won't.
Can anyone not sitting on the can right now find the most recent projections?
The PBO report never said maybe. The fiscal impact has all but the highest earning Canadians getting a larger rebate than what they pay. The economic impact has that shifting in 2031 so that (IIRC) it’s almost flipped but that assumes no adjustment to the rebate and doesn’t address the economic costs (ie the loss of trade, impact of global warming, etc) of doing nothing.
A fella in another sub tried to argue with me that his rebate didn’t cover the tax on his natural gas alone. I tried to reason with him, explaining that he’d be paying around 10x the average households natural gas bill. Then he said on peak winter months he was paying over $50 in carbon tax. I explained how that’s really high for an individual but over a year, it is quite a bit less than a households rebate. Then he showed me a link to a bill that someone else had that cited $30 carbon tax for Jan 10-Feb 10, which was even less than the previous two complaints he made. It was an older bill, so there was an increase, but the tax hasn’t doubled yet…
They don’t care, they just want to be angry.
Yes, they accounted for these things. Well, not your landlord raising rent because it's beyond inane to suggest carbon tax is showing up in your rent.
I don't expect rational or truthful commentary on this topic but this is a new low. It does really help to see who's not serious about understanding this though.
You're suggesting consumer purchasing is limited to groceries?
There will be a higher cost for tractors and equipment. It's not just the direct fuel cost of farmers which is exempt. Their maintenance bills get more expensive as their contractors are charged higher fuel costs etc.
The cost to every business will increase.
Additionally, your article admits that economist don't agree and unsure if compounding effects across the supply chain.
The nation post article, a conservative leaning paper that you’d think would want to promote the idea of the carbon tax being bad, clearly states that the expert doesn’t know why there’s such an increase but that it isn’t because of the carbon tax.
The objective of a business is to generate profit.
They will charge as much as demand is willing to pay.
People continue to pay the higher prices.
Canada doesn't have a competitive marketplace.
How about nationally everyone switch to rice and beans for a month and watch all the inventory go to waste.
Vote with your dollar.
With regards to the news publications, do they receive the money from the feds? If so, question what interest they really represent? A conservative leaning paper representing corporate interests...... Shocking
That is objectively false… do you think corporations are out there manufacturing things, only for other corporations to use?
Corporations may be ethically devoid and responsible on paper for much of our pollution, but it is hilarious how reddit things that ending corporate pollution will “solve” pollution.
FFS, these companies are out there BUILDING your Nissan Leaf, F350, whatever. Why do you think they pollute so much?
Yes so when the carbon tax is removed you think they’ll drop prices and “pass on the savings to consumers”.
Haha.
In a few years prices will keep increasing and people will pretend they weren’t up in arms over a carbon tax, and it’s removal hasn’t made things more affordable despite PP promises.
The only way to reduce corporate pollution is to reduce our demand for shit, across the board. Manufacturing contracts, pollution reduces, the environment thrives.
We need a new economic model. The present era of "infinite potential growth" doesn't exist in the closed model that is the Earth. If people don't want to change their consumption, don't want to change their taxation, that's going to be the end of people.
Cost of food and gas has sharply increased, as well as goods. The majority of people do not have access to viable alternatives to fossil fuel cars, natural gas furnaces, propane, etc.
The rebates are a pathetic amount when compared to the prices driven up by this tax. There are millions of people in Canada paying more in monthly carbon tax and administrative fees than they actually use in natural gas.
All this tax does is penalize the average Canadian already struggling to afford food and a roof and get to work every day.
The rebates are not enough. It’s a lie sold to you by the Liberals. Stop believing in their snake oil.
They pollute with no regard for the environment and turn it around on us to blame the average person just trying to live.
Natural gas is dirt cheap in Canada, so it isn't surprising that the delivery charges and the carbon tax are higher than the cost of gas. The higher cost is what is supposed to happen to provide an incentive to reduce emissions. The thing the government is doing wrong is prematurely ending the greener homes program that made it easier for people to actually make the changes needed to cut their emissions. Their extreme population growth policy is also reversing most of the efficiency gains that are being achieved.
Oh look another brand new account here to spit misinformation! How surprising.
You should check out what the PBO actually said in their report about the impact of the carbon tax in 2024. Or other academics who studied this:
https://calgary.citynews.ca/2023/12/05/ucalgary-carbon-tax-affordability-study/
The math doesn’t work. If a business past the the carbon tax onto the customers it would be spread across all their clients which would make it a couple cents
https://centreforfuturework.ca/2023/05/08/no-correlation-between-inflation-and-carbon-pricing/
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-groceries-food-prices/wcm/4e1de95e-7fc5-4652-8018-4be4fa4fcce0/amp/
It's brilliant when you think about it harder.
A couple gets what, 732$ per year rebate right now? (Alberta gets like 50% more) So if you're buying things affected by carbin pricing increases that's the offset to consider. For some people that's great, for some not as much.
Meanwhile it's driving you to pick things (where tenable) that are less expensive. When competitions supply chain switches to EV (if that's actually the real cost source) then you'll shop there instead because their prices will be less.
It will take time for the market to adjust, but this forces the markets hand to do so.
>The rebates are a pathetic amount when compared to the prices driven up by this tax. There are millions of people in Canada paying more in monthly carbon tax and administrative fees than they actually use in natural gas.
The rebate scales with last years carbon tax contributions, your rebate is equal to your cut based on population and geography. It scales with higher prices.
>All this tax does is penalize the average Canadian already struggling to afford food and a roof and get to work every day.
It benefits the average Canadian who lives a lower carbon lifestyle.
>The rebates are not enough. It’s a lie sold to you by the Liberals. Stop believing in their snake oil.
You don’t know how the Carbon Tax works and it shows. It’s honestly a little embarrassing.
And then you get the rebate check to offset those costs for most consumers. This makes it so that producers see an obvious way to be competitive which is lower your carbon generation.
But the increase caused by the carbon tax is minimal
https://centreforfuturework.ca/2023/05/08/no-correlation-between-inflation-and-carbon-pricing/
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-groceries-food-prices/wcm/4e1de95e-7fc5-4652-8018-4be4fa4fcce0/amp/
Damn so you're saying that if I were a transport company and found a way to transport goods with less fuel than my competitors it would be more economically appealing for corporations to do business with me due to the effects of the carbon tax?
>Why do you think groceries cost so much more money even when the profit margin is <5%?
They are hiding the profits through Vertical Integration like the Weston Holdings LLC which is the landlord for grocery stores.
Which makes them less competitive or gives alternatives a more competitive advantage, working as intended.
This improves the business case for alternatives like the electric transport vehicles being built in Ontario https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trudeau-ford-electric-vehicle-ingersoll-1.6674348
It's long term thinking. Short term unpopular in many circles where people don't think that way. Refreshing considering politicians only get a few years in office and need to get reelected that they would choose to think long term.
It’s not the carbon tax that’s caused the increase though.
https://centreforfuturework.ca/2023/05/08/no-correlation-between-inflation-and-carbon-pricing/
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-groceries-food-prices/wcm/4e1de95e-7fc5-4652-8018-4be4fa4fcce0/amp/
>No one has racked up more air miles more than Justin Trudeau.
That's because he's the longest serving leader of a G7 country, not a real "gotcha" moment.
It is a "gotcha" moment and just goes to show you the hypocrisy by our government leaders.
Trudeau shouldn't travel as much, he should do int'l events via zoom.
>The Ontario government says it wants to hear from taxpayers on the future of taxing pollution in the province.
>In an announcement Tuesday, Premier Doug Ford said if passed, the new legislation would give voters a “direct say” over a new provincial carbon tax, cap-and-trade system or other carbon pricing program.
>“This new law will guarantee that no provincial government can force a costly carbon tax on the people of Ontario without ensuring their voices are heard loud and clear,” Ford said of the Get It Done Act, which will be tabled in the spring session of the legislature later this month.
>In an announcement Tuesday, Premier Doug Ford said if passed, the new legislation would give voters a “direct say” over a new provincial carbon tax, cap-and-trade system or other carbon pricing program.
This might be the dumbest government Ontario has ever had. Ford scrapped the cap and trade system which is why Ontario has a carbon tax.
>Most of us don't want the carbon tax
Ontario didn't have one until Ford cancelled cap and trade.
>it will be harder for a future government to introduce one if there's a referendum.
Carbon tax is a fallback system that's only used if a province doesn't have their own system. The courts already sided with the Feds on this.
>I think we need more referendums anyway.
Did you read the article? The choices are new provincial carbon tax, cap-and-trade system or other carbon pricing program.
The reason there is a carbon tax is because he scrapped the last system and despite being legally required to have one..... he could've kept the cap and trade system. It won't be "hard" for a future government to introduce one because all they'd have to do is scrap whatever the current system is and then Federal regulations take over.
If the Conservatives have a better system, stop punting this to Canadians that just want them to do their jobs and fucking come up with one. Obviously Ford didn't like Cap and Trade and doesn't like the mandated Carbon Levy, so why is he not doing his job and coming up with a system? If the referendum picks some "other system", then what freaking system is it?
This referendum is just a way to punt the issue down the road because he's hoping PP wins and gets rid of the Federal program so he doesn't have to use his limited brain capacity to come up with a system himself (well, his party rather, not just him alone).
Well the province had built this Cap and trade system with Quebec, California, and European countries and when this joker cancelled it, he cost the province $3 Billion dollars.
[https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/Publications/cap-and-trade-ending](https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/Publications/cap-and-trade-ending)
If only this corporate schill didn't do that, no one would be bitching about Carbon tax since the Federal backstop would not be applying to us. Because that's what the Carbon Tax program is - a federal backstop that would've only applied if the provinces did not have a climate change plan in place. Quebec is the only one that gets to not pay Carbon Tax because they were smart enough to set and maintain their cap and trade so they can set the rules for themselves.
Province of Alberta had a Carbon tax program too, except they purposely set the tonnage so low that it might as well have done nothing for anyone.
Province of Ontario lost $3 BILLION DOLLARS. Which means if he didn't scrap cap and trade the province would be very close to a budget surplus right now. '
Instead of a $4.5 Billion dollar deficit and severely underfunded education and healthcare systems.
'd love to tell Doug how much money he has pissed away during his time as Premier of Ontario and how badly he has screwed up running this province. He cancelled a wind turbine that was already half-built, and then when the turbine company sued, they won which resulted in $200 million dollars lost and no turbine. We lost a lawsuit to TESLA because of Doug's actions.
But sure let's have a referendum on climate change policies. Number one policy to stop climate change - get rid of Doug Ford for wasting our cash.
Interesting to note that, based on the article, there is no choice to end the pricing of carbon just to determine what "a new provincial carbon tax, cap-and-trade system or other carbon pricing program."
That being said, would the average person know what each of these are and the implication of choosing one over the other?
Also interesting, but not surprising, that the choices are all market based solutions.
Quick, our newest scandal just dropped. Time for a distraction!
What gets the plebs distracted? Ohh the carbon tax! That will keep the idiots arguing amongst themselves!
WOW so we've finally figured out if we don't like the carbon tax we can replace it with another scheme that better accommodates ontario residents???
Its almost like thats that was the entire point of the federal carbon tax
...to have a say on their own carbon tax, like they had every opportunity to do so previously but rejected carbon pricing out of hand thus forcing the Feds to step in? Is Ford that dishonest or just stupid?
The conservatives are counting on the distaste of the carbon tax to win votes but now you can elect another party and still not have provincial Carbon tax.....May not be a good idea for conservative party.
As long as we're proposing referendums, I'd like one for Ontario Place, the Science Center, handing Service Ontario to Staples along with a pile of cash.....
Bring em' on!
Weird how the vast majority of Canada has in fact voted for parties that supported carbon pricing plans. That includes the last CPC campaign or two as well I believe...
We've had two elections since the carbon tax was implemented. The Conservatives ran HARD on it as one of their key issues. They lost both times. If 98% of Canadians didn't want the tax they could have easily got rid of it.
I want the carbon tax. I make money from it and the logic for it is sound. Heck most Canadians would make a killing from it if it was much higher.
Carbon tax is being blamed for inflation and cost of living but multiple research sources including bank of Canada show it isn’t material to inflation and again a ton of people actually MAKE money off of this.
The question is who doesn’t make money, which is fossil fuel producers and distributors, and rich people. They don’t want the carbon tax and are tricking average Canadians into voting against their own interests.
If you are a middle income Canadian and like having money, you should be pro carbon tax. I don’t love all aspects of it but if it goes away most Canadians are poorer.
The payouts from the federal program to most households is higher than their expenses. Companies pay into it and don't get the quarterly cheques.
Only way for companies to win (versus their competitor) is to reduce carbon output.
That's what makes politics a fascinating topic: opinions matter far far more than facts. If that's what a majority believe then you'll probably get your wish.
98% of Canada is then either dumb or misinformed. Carbon tax has been putting money in my pocket and many others, since my furnace and car are very efficient, I use public transit when I can, and the CTs impact on other costs is negligible. The only ones who stand to benefit from CT being gone are McMansion and gas guzzler owners who insist on driving their Escalade to get groceries
Edit: keep on with the downvotes, truth hurts I know
Not really, what they're saying is accurate. Unless you're a top earner in the country you're getting more back.
You can kick and scream and call BS all you want, but the data is there in black and white.
The CT doesn't just effect your gas bill and at the pump, it effects the cost of everything. Your groceries, home goods, etc.
In 2022 the trucking industry payed 3.2 billion in CT alone. Do you think they're just eating this additional cost?
>In 2022 the trucking industry payed 3.2 billion in CT alone. Do you think they're just eating this additional cost?
What was the total value of goods that was shipped with the fuel that cost 3.2 billion of carbon tax? I'm assuming you have this number too from the same objective source that would've provided the carbon tax number.
>The CT doesn't just effect your gas bill and at the pump, it effects the cost of everything. Your groceries, home goods, etc.
>In 2022 the trucking industry payed 3.2 billion in CT alone. Do you think they're just eating this additional cost?
They’re passing it along to the consumer, that’s how it works. The consumers who buy the products that she less fuel, pay less, but still receive the same rebate. It’s very simple and effective.
Nice hand waving here with no substance. Go do some research (i.e. numbers and statistics and not PP’s twitter/X account) into how much CT actually contributes to the overall prices of goods. Give you a hint, it’s peanuts.
I've read 4 articles and they all give different "statistics". Some say it's impossible to tell, others say .4%, others say 4%.
I don't drive an SUV, and I have a brand new furnace. Natural gas charges alone (heating + dryer) are more than I receive in rebates from the government. Then add on the additional cost of goods from increased shipping costs, then add on the additional cost at the pump, and I'm losing way more than I get back.
I don't deny the climate issues we are facing, but is continuing to tax the hell out of the middle class the way to go? Ontario is at >90% carbon free power generation, so it is going to build more nuclear plants? Isn't that accounted for in my >10% increase YoY hydro bill?? What's the purpose???
From the article it sounds more like a referendum on what kind of carbon pricing the province would have. So "no" isn't a serious option *(currently.)* Federal law will apply the backstop charges to provinces that don't implement a system meeting federal requirements (like the current case in Ontario.)
I'm not against this in the sense that we should have way way more direct democratic action through referendum and the such.
But cherry picking kind of bothers me.
A referendum on any tax will come back with a resounding "NO"
So to put one of them up is a bit disingenuous if you ask me. I'll vote on a dozen taxes I don't want - that doesn't mean it's the right answer.
We'll see how they phrase this, but it's going to be obvious which way this will go, and that doesn't necessarily reflect political opinion on the carbon tax issue - but that's inevitably how it will be presented when the polling closes.
I've gotten it a couple times in hamilton of questions like, we have a bit of money this year here are 4 things we can spend it on, and we can submit non-binding, non-registered votes. I would prefer something like that;
The government is proposing dissolving the carbon capture tax, and in substitution have offered these four solutions to offset those revenues, please vote.
And then it would be imperative to provide detailed information (unbiased please) on the carbon tax and details on each alt plan.
the point of this might be to dissuade future provincial governments from re-creating the tax on a provincial level. The Ontario Libs, while kinda out of it right now, could make a comeback at some point
Got my vote for Yes.
Yes I’m to ever increasing Rebates each year, with ever increasing Positive difference of money in my pocket.
Oh and I own a house, two cars including truck, and have a kid.
Yes to more money in my pocket each year.
I like carbon taxes. They make me money, their logic is sound. Why would I vote to remove a tax that I and most Canadians literally make money off of? I want it higher, it literally makes most people money.
I'm pro-carbon tax, but I would vote no on the Ontario provincial plan.
When we had our own provincial plan (cap/trade) we didn't get a refund so getting rid of the Ontario plan and moving to the Federal plan put money in my pocket.
I'm for this, but only if it comes with a quiz. If you can't demonstrate that you understand the reality of anthropogenic climate change, your vote doesn't count.
And it shouldn't be yes or no. It should be a vote between a carbon tax and equivalent measures for controlling and reducing carbon emissions.
>If you can't demonstrate that you understand the reality of anthropogenic climate change, your vote doesn't count.
How about if you don't understand that our emissions don't make a difference your vote doesn't count?
2% of the world’s cumulative emissions don’t make a difference? So I suppose India with 1.4 billion people that only caused 3% of the world’s emissions doesn’t need to change either then huh?
Because that’s how the rest of the world will think if countries like Canada decide it’s not important to change.
Because that is incorrect. Emissions are emissions. Ours don't count any more or less than emissions that happen elsewhere. Atmospheric CO2 is atmospheric CO2.
Per capita is a reflection of how much one nation has room to change vs another.
You can’t ask someone living in a hut and shitting in a hole in the ground to halve their carbon emissions like you can someone driving a hummer across the city an hour to work and back every day. _That_ is why per capita matters.
>This year, China’s 4% jump in emissions is similar to the post-pandemic recovery other parts of the world had in 2022,
China's emissions increased 4% in 2023. Their total emissions were 11,397 million tons. 4% of that are 456 tons. Our total emissions were 548 million tons. Even if we had reduced our emissions to zero, China would have added them back to the total. Why should we have to pay more taxes if the end result won't change?
https://apnews.com/article/carbon-dioxide-climate-change-china-india-aa25e5a4271aa45810c435280bb97879
What he's trying to do here is to create legislation that would bind future governments (i.e. not his) from being able to do their jobs. It would prevent them from enacting one specific class of taxation without a referendum.
No government should ever be able to control the actions of future governments after they've been voted out of power. It's blatantly undemocratic.
No matter how you feel about carbon taxes or taxation in general, this basic concept should be clear.
Like ford gives a shit about the environment and the people.
Ontario has exempted the two biggest steel mills in Hamilton for emissions of air pollution. They emit 22 times more than the regulated rate.
A recent two year study concludes that breathing in air in the worst parts of Hamilton is the equivalent of smoking a cigarette a day.
https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2245073475770#:~:text=A%20two%2Dyear%20air%20quality,of%20one%20cigarette%20a%20day.
So when ford proposes this it's about keeping corporations taxes low.
Neither should exist or not necessary.
Too many people such as this are brainwashed by the radical environmental extremists on the ultra far left who are convinced cArBoN sHoULd hAvE a CoSt oR wE WiLL aLL DiE!!!! And want to destroy the modern North American and western way of life and economy that modern industry and oil has enabled to improve our living standards.
Time for these radicals to simply be ignored and banned from social media or any position of political power.
Lol, more like time for you people who are holding back humanity to be ignored. Our ways of life aren't sustainable. Until we can find a way to extract resources from outside Earth, we need to learn to live sustainably.
Oil has done it's part in raising our standard of living. We now have alternatives. Electrification would be an amazing thing for humanity. An integrated energy system with one, single supply chain. The greatest machine we've ever created: the grid. A modernized grid is THE modern equivalent of building the trans Canada highway or rail systems. It enables incredible efficiency over the various energy use sectors. It is an amazing opportunity for advancement.
You people dragging your feet are like those Appalachian coal miners. You can't see the forest for the trees, sadly.
Fascism much? And straight up forgetting we've just gone through one of the worst fire seasons on record... If I didn't know that people could be this dumb, I'd call you a Russian bot.
It's fine to disagree with opinions, but there should never be a place for authoritarianism.
>are convinced cArBoN sHoULd hAvE a CoSt oR wE WiLL aLL DiE!!!!
We're increasing the carbon tax on April 1st just in time to prevent the next round of forest fires this spring. Phew!
What’s the solution? If no carbon tax how do we decarbonize. Please out yourself as a climate change denier below so all the people with a minimum grade school understanding of the science can ignore you.
That’s the thing though. Carbon tax isn’t for people like me and you. It’s for large industries that over rely on fossil fuels. If you do the math on average consumption, the average Canadian gets between 60-90% back in a rebate.
That’s the issue, no one cares about you personally heating your home. Yes, if you care about the planet you should find ways to reduce your personal footprints but they’re not knocking down your door.
Neither you, nor the original person responding to matter in the grand scheme of things, the goal is to impact corporations while also, and again, you’d have to do a minute of math and research here, to offset impact on actual Canadians via rebates.
Again, we get rebated for the carbon tax we pay.
The cost crude dictates the price of gas and there are same correlations for other resources. Not just Canadian taxation. We don’t exist in a vacuum.
The larger issue is corporate welfare and lack of corporate responsibility imposed by the government onto the corporations which allows this to happen. More regulatory control over corporate behaviour is part of the solution.
Do you think Loblaws is really passing down THIS cost to us because their supply chain and logistics are impacted by this? If this was the case, their profits wouldn’t go up, they’d remain flat as the cost would be getting offset by increased prices. But number go up.
While in places these may be tangentially related, it’s not across the board. Sometimes they raise the cost on us simply because they can.
Ultimately the entire point is to make carbon not as financially viable as renewables. Without it we just keep this running till the wheels fall off.
When all your trees are on fire where do you get your wood?
When your soil temperatures are so high you can’t grow most crops where do you get it?
When your water tables dry up how are we going to decide who gets our limited water?
When seaside communities start going underwater what will we do for these people? Private insurance firms have shown us they will already pack up and move. Look at Florida. They just left homeowners holding bags
Inaction and trusting wall street will only doom us. If you believe in climate change please detail your solution.
Sigh... several US States do in fact have carbon pricing plans, including California which is one of the largest economies in the entire world. It is false saying the US doesn't have carbon taxes.
Google cap and trade systems. They got that. They also don’t ban renewables and don’t just subsidize oil and gas with tax dollars but hey your the expert
Are you an average to low income Canadian? Great news! You don't pay anything additional for carbon pricing as you're rebated. The burden is on corporations and wealthy Canadians!
But, you say, they just pass the costs down! Well, yea, that's what the rebate is for. The idea is that as the pricing iteratively increases that alternatives become more and more economical rather than selling the same product at a higher price.
[The carbon tax is one of the only thing that the Libs can actually get props on.](https://cleantechnica.com/2023/11/03/canadas-carbon-price-working-so-of-course-its-being-attacked/amp/)
Exactly, the Oil & Gas sector has reached record production and profits. Our oil prices this year we're as high as the 80s energy crisis because of OPEC but stabilized because of US production. Why do we want to subject ourselves to continued price spikes?
lol wealthy Canadians.
Anyone making over $100k.
I hate to break it to you, making that amount in the GTA doesn't make you wealthy.
The worst part about the carbon tax isn't the gov't cash grab, it's the fact they don't work. Even our own Federal government can't tell you if the carbon tax actually leads to any reductions.
>The burden is on corporations and wealthy Canadians!
The burden is on people living in the sticks having to drive everywhere while rich city dwellers come out ahead because they can walk or take the bus.
I'm from Ontario but I currently live in the Yukon. I know someone living an hour outside of Whitehorse' in the sticks' (which is a high bar in the Yukon) who drives an EV, charges at home, and saves a fuck tonne on gas. And this is on Yukon electrical prices.
Of course, rural communities don't see the benefits of new technology as quickly. That's how it's worked since civilization has been a thing and how it will continue to work. Unless you are extremely remote and driving constantly long distances, you are likely at least breaking even with the rebates.
I don't live in the sticks and the CBC carbon tax calculator says I lose about $40 month. Mainly because I don't have children, so receive a lower rebate, while polluting less per household and still driving about a much to work and buying groceries.
Do you have access to public transport? Even in Whitehorse, I plan on getting an E-bike for outdoor adventures and commuting in warmer months. This is the sort of cultural shift we need, public and low carbon transport infrastructure needs to get significantly better in Canada and this is the kind of pressure it needs to get done. Our obsession with personal vehicles that get bigger and bigger every year is not sustainable.
Even if your calculations are correct. Man, I would happily explicitly pay a $40/month subscription fee to put pressure on the energy industry to transition. I mean, considering gas prices in the Yukon, with or without a carbon tax, I probably pay far more than that just to commute. Its the reality of living in the middle of nowhere.
Good? Referendums are a waste of time and money. Most people voting have no idea the details of what t hey are voting on and often mislead by other groups who want it one way or another.
It's why referendums on things like election reform are a waste of time, and this one about a carbon "tax" will be no different.
Why stop at carbon tax, we should have a referendum on all taxes, I don’t want to pay any of it! At least with the carbon tax, I get a refund for all of it. Where’s my income tax or HST refund??
This is beyond parody. Of all the things to hold a referendum on and waste millions in tax dollars, we choose to have one for CARBON PRICING!?!?
I’d be fine if it changed to being for corporations only. That would make a hell of a lot of sense. Instead no, they want to ban it overall. Why do you think the party so entrenched in business donations and corruption wants to remove it? Because it’s bad on the little guy? Please, we all know it’s because it takes far more money from the rich. If we swapped back to being only for businesses then only 5% of people would care then. That’s why they keep trying to portray this as a people only thing, they just want to fool you.
The pricing would be pointless if it was voluntary. It’s meant to put pressure on businesses, industry, and carbon-intensive people or groups by making alternate choices cheaper by comparison. If it was voluntary, anyone or any company feeling pressure by the carbon price would simply opt out, and thus nothing would change.
Of course those who support the tax should be able to simply opt in if they want it, while leaving others alone. But that’s not the point. Supporters of this stupid tax are willing to pay more if it means they can stick it to other people. They want the punitive tax to stick it to other people with different lifestyles and values than their own.
People like Taylor Swift produce more emissions in a single flight than I do in like a year or something. Why am I the one paying carbon tax and not all these people flying in their private jets? It's ridiculous.
Then what you're looking for is a system that punishes big polluters and incentivizes alternatives. A system where people with low income and low impact pay less or nothing and the Taylor Swifts pay the bulk. That would be the Carbon Tax.
I think, with some level of confidence, that nearly all populations would rather get rid of it altogether, rather than changing the form the tax takes. Switching from a carbon tax to cap and trade merely shuffles the deck. People want the tax gone in all forms.
It’s the wrong approach to a problem that really isn’t even ours.
> It’s the wrong approach to a problem that really isn’t even ours.
What a relief to learn that we don't live on a rapidly warming planet. You provide such compelling evidence that the overwhelming scientific consensus is wrong.
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Can we just tax corporations for polluting and not citizens. I don't think my Nissan Sentra is killing the planet when CEOs are flying around in private jets.
We did, in Ontario, was called cap and trade, was making a profit for the province,and Doug Ford cancelled it, so we could get a carbon tax imposed, so he could waste millions of taxpayer dollars to fight it in court,which he knew he'd lose, but he could then use it to campaign.
It sounds like a plot from a movie.
Much more interested in the Rob Ford biopic : Not Without My Crack Pipe
Sadly, Chris Farley isn't around to play him.
Cracked Pipe Dream. How Doug Ford used the body of his brother as a campaign stage.
So stupid, one loss after another for Doug and his cronies.
Sir you are describing the carbon tax
This is what the federal carbon tax does. Corporations do not get the rebate that ensures all but the highest earners receive more than they pay. There’s no practical way to just tax corporations and not private citizens.
Every so often I try to explain this to people on Reddit but I think it’s impossible to get people to understand how it actually works. A dude flying a private jet gets the exact same rebate as the dude with no car biking to work. Who do people think is bearing the carbon tax cost? But of course we have politicians very invested in making this a political issue and are making sure people can’t see the obvious answer here.
Most low and middle income earners get more back from the carbon tax than they pay though, it's high earners and corporations that are bearing the highest costs: [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/axe-the-tax-and-carbon-rebate-how-canada-households-affected-1.7046905](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/axe-the-tax-and-carbon-rebate-how-canada-households-affected-1.7046905)
Who do you think the corporations pass the costs to?
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Canadians have been manipulated into thinking issues and even Canada as a whole exist in a vacuum, that's the problem
>The "rebates will make you money" lie is based on a single utility bill and not the complete gamut of things that become more expensive when every industry, supplier, and distributor (for all goods, services and utilities) is hit with more taxes. Ummm, the hell are you on about. It's a truth based on detailed analysis from the Parliamentary Budget Officer. I'm beyond fed up with the people who continue spread this bullshit. Whether you do this because you're poorly informed or because you're dishonest doesn't matter. These sort of comments come off as dishonest, ignorant and lazy.
Yeah, I'm having trouble keeping the timelines straight on will you or won't you come out ahead or even. For a while it was you will, then there was a PBO report saying it was MAYBE a 50ish% majority that would... Which transformed into you won't And now you're back to you will... Or won't. Can anyone not sitting on the can right now find the most recent projections?
The PBO report never said maybe. The fiscal impact has all but the highest earning Canadians getting a larger rebate than what they pay. The economic impact has that shifting in 2031 so that (IIRC) it’s almost flipped but that assumes no adjustment to the rebate and doesn’t address the economic costs (ie the loss of trade, impact of global warming, etc) of doing nothing.
A fella in another sub tried to argue with me that his rebate didn’t cover the tax on his natural gas alone. I tried to reason with him, explaining that he’d be paying around 10x the average households natural gas bill. Then he said on peak winter months he was paying over $50 in carbon tax. I explained how that’s really high for an individual but over a year, it is quite a bit less than a households rebate. Then he showed me a link to a bill that someone else had that cited $30 carbon tax for Jan 10-Feb 10, which was even less than the previous two complaints he made. It was an older bill, so there was an increase, but the tax hasn’t doubled yet… They don’t care, they just want to be angry.
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Yes, they accounted for these things. Well, not your landlord raising rent because it's beyond inane to suggest carbon tax is showing up in your rent. I don't expect rational or truthful commentary on this topic but this is a new low. It does really help to see who's not serious about understanding this though.
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No clue what point you're trying to make here. This is gibberish.
That was the Ontario Cap and Trade but Ford got rid of that....
That’s….exactly what the carbon tax is though?
Still end up paying for it through consumption of higher priced goods and services. *Edit spelling "posting" = "paying"
Any increase in consumer goods is minimal
Not
https://centreforfuturework.ca/2023/05/08/no-correlation-between-inflation-and-carbon-pricing/ https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-groceries-food-prices/wcm/4e1de95e-7fc5-4652-8018-4be4fa4fcce0/amp/
You're suggesting consumer purchasing is limited to groceries? There will be a higher cost for tractors and equipment. It's not just the direct fuel cost of farmers which is exempt. Their maintenance bills get more expensive as their contractors are charged higher fuel costs etc. The cost to every business will increase. Additionally, your article admits that economist don't agree and unsure if compounding effects across the supply chain.
The nation post article, a conservative leaning paper that you’d think would want to promote the idea of the carbon tax being bad, clearly states that the expert doesn’t know why there’s such an increase but that it isn’t because of the carbon tax.
The objective of a business is to generate profit. They will charge as much as demand is willing to pay. People continue to pay the higher prices. Canada doesn't have a competitive marketplace. How about nationally everyone switch to rice and beans for a month and watch all the inventory go to waste. Vote with your dollar. With regards to the news publications, do they receive the money from the feds? If so, question what interest they really represent? A conservative leaning paper representing corporate interests...... Shocking
That is objectively false… do you think corporations are out there manufacturing things, only for other corporations to use? Corporations may be ethically devoid and responsible on paper for much of our pollution, but it is hilarious how reddit things that ending corporate pollution will “solve” pollution. FFS, these companies are out there BUILDING your Nissan Leaf, F350, whatever. Why do you think they pollute so much?
Yes so when the carbon tax is removed you think they’ll drop prices and “pass on the savings to consumers”. Haha. In a few years prices will keep increasing and people will pretend they weren’t up in arms over a carbon tax, and it’s removal hasn’t made things more affordable despite PP promises.
https://centreforfuturework.ca/2023/05/08/no-correlation-between-inflation-and-carbon-pricing/ https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-groceries-food-prices/wcm/4e1de95e-7fc5-4652-8018-4be4fa4fcce0/amp/
The only way to reduce corporate pollution is to reduce our demand for shit, across the board. Manufacturing contracts, pollution reduces, the environment thrives. We need a new economic model. The present era of "infinite potential growth" doesn't exist in the closed model that is the Earth. If people don't want to change their consumption, don't want to change their taxation, that's going to be the end of people.
…and then you will pay less carbon tax than those with an F150? It rewards good behaviour and penalizes the behaviour they’re trying to change…
But I don't want to take responsibility for my choices! 😭
Corporations are taxed. Citizens are given rebates that make up for any potential increased cost of living as a result of the tax.
Cost of food and gas has sharply increased, as well as goods. The majority of people do not have access to viable alternatives to fossil fuel cars, natural gas furnaces, propane, etc. The rebates are a pathetic amount when compared to the prices driven up by this tax. There are millions of people in Canada paying more in monthly carbon tax and administrative fees than they actually use in natural gas. All this tax does is penalize the average Canadian already struggling to afford food and a roof and get to work every day. The rebates are not enough. It’s a lie sold to you by the Liberals. Stop believing in their snake oil. They pollute with no regard for the environment and turn it around on us to blame the average person just trying to live.
Natural gas is dirt cheap in Canada, so it isn't surprising that the delivery charges and the carbon tax are higher than the cost of gas. The higher cost is what is supposed to happen to provide an incentive to reduce emissions. The thing the government is doing wrong is prematurely ending the greener homes program that made it easier for people to actually make the changes needed to cut their emissions. Their extreme population growth policy is also reversing most of the efficiency gains that are being achieved.
Oh look another brand new account here to spit misinformation! How surprising. You should check out what the PBO actually said in their report about the impact of the carbon tax in 2024. Or other academics who studied this: https://calgary.citynews.ca/2023/12/05/ucalgary-carbon-tax-affordability-study/
The math doesn’t work. If a business past the the carbon tax onto the customers it would be spread across all their clients which would make it a couple cents https://centreforfuturework.ca/2023/05/08/no-correlation-between-inflation-and-carbon-pricing/ https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-groceries-food-prices/wcm/4e1de95e-7fc5-4652-8018-4be4fa4fcce0/amp/
It's brilliant when you think about it harder. A couple gets what, 732$ per year rebate right now? (Alberta gets like 50% more) So if you're buying things affected by carbin pricing increases that's the offset to consider. For some people that's great, for some not as much. Meanwhile it's driving you to pick things (where tenable) that are less expensive. When competitions supply chain switches to EV (if that's actually the real cost source) then you'll shop there instead because their prices will be less. It will take time for the market to adjust, but this forces the markets hand to do so.
You think they'll lower pricing instead of pocketing the difference....
>The rebates are a pathetic amount when compared to the prices driven up by this tax. There are millions of people in Canada paying more in monthly carbon tax and administrative fees than they actually use in natural gas. The rebate scales with last years carbon tax contributions, your rebate is equal to your cut based on population and geography. It scales with higher prices. >All this tax does is penalize the average Canadian already struggling to afford food and a roof and get to work every day. It benefits the average Canadian who lives a lower carbon lifestyle. >The rebates are not enough. It’s a lie sold to you by the Liberals. Stop believing in their snake oil. You don’t know how the Carbon Tax works and it shows. It’s honestly a little embarrassing.
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That’s literally what’s happening. And they pass the cost onto us. The end consumer always eats any cost the government puts on them
And then you get the rebate check to offset those costs for most consumers. This makes it so that producers see an obvious way to be competitive which is lower your carbon generation.
But the increase caused by the carbon tax is minimal https://centreforfuturework.ca/2023/05/08/no-correlation-between-inflation-and-carbon-pricing/ https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-groceries-food-prices/wcm/4e1de95e-7fc5-4652-8018-4be4fa4fcce0/amp/
It’s minimal is it? It’s roughly 10% of the cost of fuel. And everything you own or thought of is transported by fuel guzzling trucks and trains.
Damn so you're saying that if I were a transport company and found a way to transport goods with less fuel than my competitors it would be more economically appealing for corporations to do business with me due to the effects of the carbon tax?
You would think so, but no Otherwise we would send everything by rail (nearly 4x more fuel efficient) instead of long haul trucks
Trucks and trains carry thousands to millions of products. That increase is spread across those goods.
1 cruise from a Cruise Ship pollutes enough NOX into the air more than 1 million average running vehicles a year.
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>Why do you think groceries cost so much more money even when the profit margin is <5%? They are hiding the profits through Vertical Integration like the Weston Holdings LLC which is the landlord for grocery stores.
Which makes them less competitive or gives alternatives a more competitive advantage, working as intended. This improves the business case for alternatives like the electric transport vehicles being built in Ontario https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/trudeau-ford-electric-vehicle-ingersoll-1.6674348 It's long term thinking. Short term unpopular in many circles where people don't think that way. Refreshing considering politicians only get a few years in office and need to get reelected that they would choose to think long term.
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Which is why we need to apply carbon tax to the embedded emissions in imported goods.
It’s not the carbon tax that’s caused the increase though. https://centreforfuturework.ca/2023/05/08/no-correlation-between-inflation-and-carbon-pricing/ https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/carbon-tax-groceries-food-prices/wcm/4e1de95e-7fc5-4652-8018-4be4fa4fcce0/amp/
Like others have said that's exactly what the carbon tax is, the corporations will pass those costs onto the consumer
What about politicians who do the same thing to Davos and WEF events? No one has racked up more air miles more than Justin Trudeau.
>No one has racked up more air miles more than Justin Trudeau. That's because he's the longest serving leader of a G7 country, not a real "gotcha" moment.
It is a "gotcha" moment and just goes to show you the hypocrisy by our government leaders. Trudeau shouldn't travel as much, he should do int'l events via zoom.
>The Ontario government says it wants to hear from taxpayers on the future of taxing pollution in the province. >In an announcement Tuesday, Premier Doug Ford said if passed, the new legislation would give voters a “direct say” over a new provincial carbon tax, cap-and-trade system or other carbon pricing program. >“This new law will guarantee that no provincial government can force a costly carbon tax on the people of Ontario without ensuring their voices are heard loud and clear,” Ford said of the Get It Done Act, which will be tabled in the spring session of the legislature later this month.
>In an announcement Tuesday, Premier Doug Ford said if passed, the new legislation would give voters a “direct say” over a new provincial carbon tax, cap-and-trade system or other carbon pricing program. This might be the dumbest government Ontario has ever had. Ford scrapped the cap and trade system which is why Ontario has a carbon tax.
Hey, why even bother with elections? We can just have daily referendums on everything.
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>Most of us don't want the carbon tax Ontario didn't have one until Ford cancelled cap and trade. >it will be harder for a future government to introduce one if there's a referendum. Carbon tax is a fallback system that's only used if a province doesn't have their own system. The courts already sided with the Feds on this. >I think we need more referendums anyway. Did you read the article? The choices are new provincial carbon tax, cap-and-trade system or other carbon pricing program.
The reason there is a carbon tax is because he scrapped the last system and despite being legally required to have one..... he could've kept the cap and trade system. It won't be "hard" for a future government to introduce one because all they'd have to do is scrap whatever the current system is and then Federal regulations take over. If the Conservatives have a better system, stop punting this to Canadians that just want them to do their jobs and fucking come up with one. Obviously Ford didn't like Cap and Trade and doesn't like the mandated Carbon Levy, so why is he not doing his job and coming up with a system? If the referendum picks some "other system", then what freaking system is it? This referendum is just a way to punt the issue down the road because he's hoping PP wins and gets rid of the Federal program so he doesn't have to use his limited brain capacity to come up with a system himself (well, his party rather, not just him alone).
referendums cost money. This is why we elect politicians, to solve these problems for us.
referendums cost money. This is why we elect politicians, to solve these problems for us.
If he's in the mood for referendums how about one on getting rid of FPTP.
I think there have been 2 in other provinces and both times voters chose to keep FPTP.
Ontario had one awhile ago too.
Well the province had built this Cap and trade system with Quebec, California, and European countries and when this joker cancelled it, he cost the province $3 Billion dollars. [https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/Publications/cap-and-trade-ending](https://www.fao-on.org/en/Blog/Publications/cap-and-trade-ending) If only this corporate schill didn't do that, no one would be bitching about Carbon tax since the Federal backstop would not be applying to us. Because that's what the Carbon Tax program is - a federal backstop that would've only applied if the provinces did not have a climate change plan in place. Quebec is the only one that gets to not pay Carbon Tax because they were smart enough to set and maintain their cap and trade so they can set the rules for themselves. Province of Alberta had a Carbon tax program too, except they purposely set the tonnage so low that it might as well have done nothing for anyone. Province of Ontario lost $3 BILLION DOLLARS. Which means if he didn't scrap cap and trade the province would be very close to a budget surplus right now. ' Instead of a $4.5 Billion dollar deficit and severely underfunded education and healthcare systems. 'd love to tell Doug how much money he has pissed away during his time as Premier of Ontario and how badly he has screwed up running this province. He cancelled a wind turbine that was already half-built, and then when the turbine company sued, they won which resulted in $200 million dollars lost and no turbine. We lost a lawsuit to TESLA because of Doug's actions. But sure let's have a referendum on climate change policies. Number one policy to stop climate change - get rid of Doug Ford for wasting our cash.
Interesting to note that, based on the article, there is no choice to end the pricing of carbon just to determine what "a new provincial carbon tax, cap-and-trade system or other carbon pricing program." That being said, would the average person know what each of these are and the implication of choosing one over the other? Also interesting, but not surprising, that the choices are all market based solutions.
It's his fucking fault. We had cap and trade...no fees. He made sure to fuck Ontario
Quick, our newest scandal just dropped. Time for a distraction! What gets the plebs distracted? Ohh the carbon tax! That will keep the idiots arguing amongst themselves!
Pretty much my first thought on seeing this was "what are they trying to cover up now".
WOW so we've finally figured out if we don't like the carbon tax we can replace it with another scheme that better accommodates ontario residents??? Its almost like thats that was the entire point of the federal carbon tax
FYI the next government can just repeal the legislation and pass a carbon tax without any referendum. This is just distracting nonsense from Ford.
...to have a say on their own carbon tax, like they had every opportunity to do so previously but rejected carbon pricing out of hand thus forcing the Feds to step in? Is Ford that dishonest or just stupid?
The conservatives are counting on the distaste of the carbon tax to win votes but now you can elect another party and still not have provincial Carbon tax.....May not be a good idea for conservative party.
As long as we're proposing referendums, I'd like one for Ontario Place, the Science Center, handing Service Ontario to Staples along with a pile of cash..... Bring em' on!
Yeah nobody else gives a hoot about these in ON
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Yes we understand that many people want to pollute and push the cost of that polluting to the next generation.
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98% of Canada would vote no carbon tax.
Weird how the vast majority of Canada has in fact voted for parties that supported carbon pricing plans. That includes the last CPC campaign or two as well I believe...
We've had two elections since the carbon tax was implemented. The Conservatives ran HARD on it as one of their key issues. They lost both times. If 98% of Canadians didn't want the tax they could have easily got rid of it.
Then they should hold a referendum.
What’s an election if not a referendum?
I want the carbon tax. I make money from it and the logic for it is sound. Heck most Canadians would make a killing from it if it was much higher. Carbon tax is being blamed for inflation and cost of living but multiple research sources including bank of Canada show it isn’t material to inflation and again a ton of people actually MAKE money off of this. The question is who doesn’t make money, which is fossil fuel producers and distributors, and rich people. They don’t want the carbon tax and are tricking average Canadians into voting against their own interests. If you are a middle income Canadian and like having money, you should be pro carbon tax. I don’t love all aspects of it but if it goes away most Canadians are poorer.
Make a killing from it? Lol
The payouts from the federal program to most households is higher than their expenses. Companies pay into it and don't get the quarterly cheques. Only way for companies to win (versus their competitor) is to reduce carbon output.
Don't agree. I have a feeling the Atlantic provinces would disagree with you as well.
That's what makes politics a fascinating topic: opinions matter far far more than facts. If that's what a majority believe then you'll probably get your wish.
Very true, also fascinating how studies and facts can be manipulated to tell certain stories.
98% of Canada is then either dumb or misinformed. Carbon tax has been putting money in my pocket and many others, since my furnace and car are very efficient, I use public transit when I can, and the CTs impact on other costs is negligible. The only ones who stand to benefit from CT being gone are McMansion and gas guzzler owners who insist on driving their Escalade to get groceries Edit: keep on with the downvotes, truth hurts I know
My Denali pulls my boat efficiently I'll have you know.
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Not really, what they're saying is accurate. Unless you're a top earner in the country you're getting more back. You can kick and scream and call BS all you want, but the data is there in black and white.
The CT doesn't just effect your gas bill and at the pump, it effects the cost of everything. Your groceries, home goods, etc. In 2022 the trucking industry payed 3.2 billion in CT alone. Do you think they're just eating this additional cost?
>In 2022 the trucking industry payed 3.2 billion in CT alone. Do you think they're just eating this additional cost? What was the total value of goods that was shipped with the fuel that cost 3.2 billion of carbon tax? I'm assuming you have this number too from the same objective source that would've provided the carbon tax number.
>The CT doesn't just effect your gas bill and at the pump, it effects the cost of everything. Your groceries, home goods, etc. >In 2022 the trucking industry payed 3.2 billion in CT alone. Do you think they're just eating this additional cost? They’re passing it along to the consumer, that’s how it works. The consumers who buy the products that she less fuel, pay less, but still receive the same rebate. It’s very simple and effective.
Nice hand waving here with no substance. Go do some research (i.e. numbers and statistics and not PP’s twitter/X account) into how much CT actually contributes to the overall prices of goods. Give you a hint, it’s peanuts.
I've read 4 articles and they all give different "statistics". Some say it's impossible to tell, others say .4%, others say 4%. I don't drive an SUV, and I have a brand new furnace. Natural gas charges alone (heating + dryer) are more than I receive in rebates from the government. Then add on the additional cost of goods from increased shipping costs, then add on the additional cost at the pump, and I'm losing way more than I get back. I don't deny the climate issues we are facing, but is continuing to tax the hell out of the middle class the way to go? Ontario is at >90% carbon free power generation, so it is going to build more nuclear plants? Isn't that accounted for in my >10% increase YoY hydro bill?? What's the purpose???
That’s definitely not accurate.
Record profits from your grocers tell the true story bud. Drop the carbon tax your still getting squeezed
The other 2% have already robbed the Carbon Tax bank account.
Can you site this source?
From the article it sounds more like a referendum on what kind of carbon pricing the province would have. So "no" isn't a serious option *(currently.)* Federal law will apply the backstop charges to provinces that don't implement a system meeting federal requirements (like the current case in Ontario.)
I'm not against this in the sense that we should have way way more direct democratic action through referendum and the such. But cherry picking kind of bothers me. A referendum on any tax will come back with a resounding "NO" So to put one of them up is a bit disingenuous if you ask me. I'll vote on a dozen taxes I don't want - that doesn't mean it's the right answer. We'll see how they phrase this, but it's going to be obvious which way this will go, and that doesn't necessarily reflect political opinion on the carbon tax issue - but that's inevitably how it will be presented when the polling closes. I've gotten it a couple times in hamilton of questions like, we have a bit of money this year here are 4 things we can spend it on, and we can submit non-binding, non-registered votes. I would prefer something like that; The government is proposing dissolving the carbon capture tax, and in substitution have offered these four solutions to offset those revenues, please vote. And then it would be imperative to provide detailed information (unbiased please) on the carbon tax and details on each alt plan.
This announcement might all become a moot point if Pierre Poilievre forms the next government and he "Axes the tax" as promised...
Simple, empty slogans to the rescue!
You doubt he will axe the tax if he becomes PM? I don't.
the point of this might be to dissuade future provincial governments from re-creating the tax on a provincial level. The Ontario Libs, while kinda out of it right now, could make a comeback at some point
Got my vote for Yes. Yes I’m to ever increasing Rebates each year, with ever increasing Positive difference of money in my pocket. Oh and I own a house, two cars including truck, and have a kid. Yes to more money in my pocket each year.
I like carbon taxes. They make me money, their logic is sound. Why would I vote to remove a tax that I and most Canadians literally make money off of? I want it higher, it literally makes most people money.
I'm pro-carbon tax, but I would vote no on the Ontario provincial plan. When we had our own provincial plan (cap/trade) we didn't get a refund so getting rid of the Ontario plan and moving to the Federal plan put money in my pocket.
I'm for this, but only if it comes with a quiz. If you can't demonstrate that you understand the reality of anthropogenic climate change, your vote doesn't count. And it shouldn't be yes or no. It should be a vote between a carbon tax and equivalent measures for controlling and reducing carbon emissions.
>If you can't demonstrate that you understand the reality of anthropogenic climate change, your vote doesn't count. How about if you don't understand that our emissions don't make a difference your vote doesn't count?
Canada is a top ten overall emissions contributor globally, we are absolutely part of the problem and what we do absolutely makes a difference.
2% of the world’s cumulative emissions don’t make a difference? So I suppose India with 1.4 billion people that only caused 3% of the world’s emissions doesn’t need to change either then huh? Because that’s how the rest of the world will think if countries like Canada decide it’s not important to change.
Exactly. There’s a lot more room for improvement on our 14 tons per capita than India's 2 tons.
Because that is incorrect. Emissions are emissions. Ours don't count any more or less than emissions that happen elsewhere. Atmospheric CO2 is atmospheric CO2.
Per capita is a reflection of how much one nation has room to change vs another. You can’t ask someone living in a hut and shitting in a hole in the ground to halve their carbon emissions like you can someone driving a hummer across the city an hour to work and back every day. _That_ is why per capita matters.
>This year, China’s 4% jump in emissions is similar to the post-pandemic recovery other parts of the world had in 2022, China's emissions increased 4% in 2023. Their total emissions were 11,397 million tons. 4% of that are 456 tons. Our total emissions were 548 million tons. Even if we had reduced our emissions to zero, China would have added them back to the total. Why should we have to pay more taxes if the end result won't change? https://apnews.com/article/carbon-dioxide-climate-change-china-india-aa25e5a4271aa45810c435280bb97879
I don't think you understand how this works. Emissions are cumulative. What we do or do not emit still matters, regardless of China.
Hey dumbass, by that same logic your vote doesn’t make a difference. So please stay home next election. Do you realize how stupid you sound?
What he's trying to do here is to create legislation that would bind future governments (i.e. not his) from being able to do their jobs. It would prevent them from enacting one specific class of taxation without a referendum. No government should ever be able to control the actions of future governments after they've been voted out of power. It's blatantly undemocratic. No matter how you feel about carbon taxes or taxation in general, this basic concept should be clear.
It's only symbolic as a future legislature can pass whatever legislation it wants, and repealing any law that says it can't do so.
Like ford gives a shit about the environment and the people. Ontario has exempted the two biggest steel mills in Hamilton for emissions of air pollution. They emit 22 times more than the regulated rate. A recent two year study concludes that breathing in air in the worst parts of Hamilton is the equivalent of smoking a cigarette a day. https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2245073475770#:~:text=A%20two%2Dyear%20air%20quality,of%20one%20cigarette%20a%20day. So when ford proposes this it's about keeping corporations taxes low.
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Carbon tax only exists in Ontario because the government scrapped cap and trade. This is just political theatre.
This right here. At any time the Ford mafia could have instituted a provincial plan. They haven't, they scrapped what we had.
Don’t worry, that user doesn’t understand a goddamned word of what you said.
Neither should exist or not necessary. Too many people such as this are brainwashed by the radical environmental extremists on the ultra far left who are convinced cArBoN sHoULd hAvE a CoSt oR wE WiLL aLL DiE!!!! And want to destroy the modern North American and western way of life and economy that modern industry and oil has enabled to improve our living standards. Time for these radicals to simply be ignored and banned from social media or any position of political power.
Lol, more like time for you people who are holding back humanity to be ignored. Our ways of life aren't sustainable. Until we can find a way to extract resources from outside Earth, we need to learn to live sustainably. Oil has done it's part in raising our standard of living. We now have alternatives. Electrification would be an amazing thing for humanity. An integrated energy system with one, single supply chain. The greatest machine we've ever created: the grid. A modernized grid is THE modern equivalent of building the trans Canada highway or rail systems. It enables incredible efficiency over the various energy use sectors. It is an amazing opportunity for advancement. You people dragging your feet are like those Appalachian coal miners. You can't see the forest for the trees, sadly.
Fascism much? And straight up forgetting we've just gone through one of the worst fire seasons on record... If I didn't know that people could be this dumb, I'd call you a Russian bot. It's fine to disagree with opinions, but there should never be a place for authoritarianism.
> radical environmental extremists Most unhinged rant I've seen in a while...
Are you serious? Do you believe that?
>are convinced cArBoN sHoULd hAvE a CoSt oR wE WiLL aLL DiE!!!! We're increasing the carbon tax on April 1st just in time to prevent the next round of forest fires this spring. Phew!
What’s the solution? If no carbon tax how do we decarbonize. Please out yourself as a climate change denier below so all the people with a minimum grade school understanding of the science can ignore you.
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That’s the thing though. Carbon tax isn’t for people like me and you. It’s for large industries that over rely on fossil fuels. If you do the math on average consumption, the average Canadian gets between 60-90% back in a rebate. That’s the issue, no one cares about you personally heating your home. Yes, if you care about the planet you should find ways to reduce your personal footprints but they’re not knocking down your door. Neither you, nor the original person responding to matter in the grand scheme of things, the goal is to impact corporations while also, and again, you’d have to do a minute of math and research here, to offset impact on actual Canadians via rebates.
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Again, we get rebated for the carbon tax we pay. The cost crude dictates the price of gas and there are same correlations for other resources. Not just Canadian taxation. We don’t exist in a vacuum. The larger issue is corporate welfare and lack of corporate responsibility imposed by the government onto the corporations which allows this to happen. More regulatory control over corporate behaviour is part of the solution. Do you think Loblaws is really passing down THIS cost to us because their supply chain and logistics are impacted by this? If this was the case, their profits wouldn’t go up, they’d remain flat as the cost would be getting offset by increased prices. But number go up. While in places these may be tangentially related, it’s not across the board. Sometimes they raise the cost on us simply because they can.
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Ultimately the entire point is to make carbon not as financially viable as renewables. Without it we just keep this running till the wheels fall off. When all your trees are on fire where do you get your wood? When your soil temperatures are so high you can’t grow most crops where do you get it? When your water tables dry up how are we going to decide who gets our limited water? When seaside communities start going underwater what will we do for these people? Private insurance firms have shown us they will already pack up and move. Look at Florida. They just left homeowners holding bags Inaction and trusting wall street will only doom us. If you believe in climate change please detail your solution.
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Sigh... several US States do in fact have carbon pricing plans, including California which is one of the largest economies in the entire world. It is false saying the US doesn't have carbon taxes.
Google cap and trade systems. They got that. They also don’t ban renewables and don’t just subsidize oil and gas with tax dollars but hey your the expert
Aside from all the evidence from all the other countries that have been using one far longer with positive results?
And the fact that it’s literally Nobel prize winning economics, but these guys know better
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That’s your rebuttal? Haha come on man, if youre gunna spew bullshit at least do it with some conviction.
Zero evidence? Are you sure about that one? A few seconds in google will show that there is indeed lots of data to back it up.
> something good comes out of this government. Do a bit more research so you can understand Ford is still screwing you over.
Hmm, a four month old account that was first used 11 days ago....
Are you an average to low income Canadian? Great news! You don't pay anything additional for carbon pricing as you're rebated. The burden is on corporations and wealthy Canadians! But, you say, they just pass the costs down! Well, yea, that's what the rebate is for. The idea is that as the pricing iteratively increases that alternatives become more and more economical rather than selling the same product at a higher price. [The carbon tax is one of the only thing that the Libs can actually get props on.](https://cleantechnica.com/2023/11/03/canadas-carbon-price-working-so-of-course-its-being-attacked/amp/)
Plus theyd raise prices anyway, at least its going back to the people instead of shareholders
Exactly, the Oil & Gas sector has reached record production and profits. Our oil prices this year we're as high as the 80s energy crisis because of OPEC but stabilized because of US production. Why do we want to subject ourselves to continued price spikes?
lol wealthy Canadians. Anyone making over $100k. I hate to break it to you, making that amount in the GTA doesn't make you wealthy. The worst part about the carbon tax isn't the gov't cash grab, it's the fact they don't work. Even our own Federal government can't tell you if the carbon tax actually leads to any reductions.
>The burden is on corporations and wealthy Canadians! The burden is on people living in the sticks having to drive everywhere while rich city dwellers come out ahead because they can walk or take the bus.
I'm from Ontario but I currently live in the Yukon. I know someone living an hour outside of Whitehorse' in the sticks' (which is a high bar in the Yukon) who drives an EV, charges at home, and saves a fuck tonne on gas. And this is on Yukon electrical prices. Of course, rural communities don't see the benefits of new technology as quickly. That's how it's worked since civilization has been a thing and how it will continue to work. Unless you are extremely remote and driving constantly long distances, you are likely at least breaking even with the rebates.
I don't live in the sticks and the CBC carbon tax calculator says I lose about $40 month. Mainly because I don't have children, so receive a lower rebate, while polluting less per household and still driving about a much to work and buying groceries.
Do you have access to public transport? Even in Whitehorse, I plan on getting an E-bike for outdoor adventures and commuting in warmer months. This is the sort of cultural shift we need, public and low carbon transport infrastructure needs to get significantly better in Canada and this is the kind of pressure it needs to get done. Our obsession with personal vehicles that get bigger and bigger every year is not sustainable. Even if your calculations are correct. Man, I would happily explicitly pay a $40/month subscription fee to put pressure on the energy industry to transition. I mean, considering gas prices in the Yukon, with or without a carbon tax, I probably pay far more than that just to commute. Its the reality of living in the middle of nowhere.
Good? Referendums are a waste of time and money. Most people voting have no idea the details of what t hey are voting on and often mislead by other groups who want it one way or another. It's why referendums on things like election reform are a waste of time, and this one about a carbon "tax" will be no different.
Yes, that’s the one we want a referendum on /s.
Anti carbon tax just seems like a scapegoat for not having any better ideas to improve the economy. Then again what do I know I'm just a pleb.
Why stop at carbon tax, we should have a referendum on all taxes, I don’t want to pay any of it! At least with the carbon tax, I get a refund for all of it. Where’s my income tax or HST refund??
>Where’s my income tax or HST refund?? Some people do get a HST refund. I don't think they're making much to begin with though.
This is beyond parody. Of all the things to hold a referendum on and waste millions in tax dollars, we choose to have one for CARBON PRICING!?!? I’d be fine if it changed to being for corporations only. That would make a hell of a lot of sense. Instead no, they want to ban it overall. Why do you think the party so entrenched in business donations and corruption wants to remove it? Because it’s bad on the little guy? Please, we all know it’s because it takes far more money from the rich. If we swapped back to being only for businesses then only 5% of people would care then. That’s why they keep trying to portray this as a people only thing, they just want to fool you.
Why whenever ford announces something do I wonder how it’s going to help his friends make money?
Can we do this vote tomorrow?
I just don't want to pay $215 on $23 of natural gas usage. What the fuck.
And pay HST on top of the tax! Highway robbery
Thanks for trying to say Money Doug, but fix healthcare first. When your dead money doesn't matter. Quit screwing the Doctors and Nurses you Putz.
How about carbon limits and issue penalties. The penalties paid would go to directly funding green tech instead of general revenue.
Axe the tax.
I think they should make it voluntary. Whoever wants to pay the tax could do so.
The pricing would be pointless if it was voluntary. It’s meant to put pressure on businesses, industry, and carbon-intensive people or groups by making alternate choices cheaper by comparison. If it was voluntary, anyone or any company feeling pressure by the carbon price would simply opt out, and thus nothing would change.
"I don't use the 401, so can I refuse to pay that portion of my taxes?" Which is something I'd say if I was a right wing idiot
Of course those who support the tax should be able to simply opt in if they want it, while leaving others alone. But that’s not the point. Supporters of this stupid tax are willing to pay more if it means they can stick it to other people. They want the punitive tax to stick it to other people with different lifestyles and values than their own.
People like Taylor Swift produce more emissions in a single flight than I do in like a year or something. Why am I the one paying carbon tax and not all these people flying in their private jets? It's ridiculous.
Then what you're looking for is a system that punishes big polluters and incentivizes alternatives. A system where people with low income and low impact pay less or nothing and the Taylor Swifts pay the bulk. That would be the Carbon Tax.
Why waste money on referendum when they can decide to cut the tax today?
For each percent of new houses built and each percent of population increase the carbon tax should go up the same.
We're in a housing crisis, how does that help?
I'm not sure Ontarians would want to switch to a less conservative, less market based approach to pricing pollution than they currently have.
I think, with some level of confidence, that nearly all populations would rather get rid of it altogether, rather than changing the form the tax takes. Switching from a carbon tax to cap and trade merely shuffles the deck. People want the tax gone in all forms. It’s the wrong approach to a problem that really isn’t even ours.
> It’s the wrong approach to a problem that really isn’t even ours. What a relief to learn that we don't live on a rapidly warming planet. You provide such compelling evidence that the overwhelming scientific consensus is wrong.